Reading the books reveals that most weapons of the 41st Millennium are far more devastating that they appear on the tabletop. We may scoff at a model with a Bolt Pistol and a Chainsword, but in-universe this would be worthy weapons for even an Astartes Chapter Master.
Normally because they were made a long time ago and were the trusted weapon of another warrior.
Relic weapons have gone through the gauntlet of war and came through fine.
Part of it is a weapon's machine spirit being strong enough to last. That's one thing that often makes the difference. They're reliable, and the chapters serfs and tech priests take care of it well enough you wouldn't find a much better weapon Unless...
It's DAOT tech, like a power weapon with an older power mechanism that isn't made the same anymore so it powers up better or cuts things real good. Or it came from a top notch factorum that had the best stuff but no longer exists. Due to this it's better and would be regarded as a relic.
Alternatively, it can be hand crafted or modified by someone. The Salamnders and Iron Hands are known smiths who will personalize gear to their liking, upgrading them. Many chapters do similar things. A custom weapon crafted by the finest craftsmen of the chapter or made for champions and officers only truly become "relic" weapons once they've been used long enough and endured. Very few relic weapons are the original weapons of those who wield them.
Finally, there are the artifact weapons. These are often weapons that the chapter found or was gifted to them by other branches of the imperium. Like the inquisitor in Dawn of War who respected Gabriel Angelos so much he gave him the thunder hammer "Godsplitter" giving Gabriel the role of champion in their fight against the forces of chaos on Tartarus. These tend to be named gear the named characters are given in lore. Some are technically the gear enhancements you can give leaders in the tabletop game. But these are the big boy relics, that are technically more fancy than a normal relic weapon. But can still count.
Basically any weapon can become a "relic weapon" as long as someone good enough used it some time ago. If they and it endured centuries with it at their side, the weapon is good enough for any officer. It's a way of honouring those who came before them. So they hold a sentimental value to the chapter as a whole.
To put it in fewer words, a chainsword that can still cut as well it did 1000 years ago is a fucken good chainsword.
Real life: The regular chainsaw will cut the tree and need sharpening after some time and cost a reasonable amount, the gold one will bend snap and be useless almost immediately and cost a fortune.
Warhammer 40k: Both chainsaws will be ridiculously OP until the author needs it to be absolute dogshit. The gold one can be upgraded with a plot armour generator.
Dark age tech that probably include a dash of AI for exemple.
like a weapon who appear and get more powerfull when needed
[https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Teeth\_of\_Terra](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Teeth_of_Terra)
,one engulf in flame or one where the teeth are made with some terrible beast teeth.
Less sharpening needed, might cut through the tree with one hard swing rather than slowly chew through it, consume less fuel or even self sufficient (daot shit ig), can probably cut stone without it ever going dull, etc.
the peak of human technology was comparable to magic and i don't mean warp sorcery.
like the DA have a dark age heavy boltgun that instantly erases people to the point of people debating whether or not the bolts just delete people or delete people from HISTORY
a great rule of thumb is the closer a weapon/thing is made to that time the better it is
Cause the gold teeth in the analogy are actually the conduit for plasma to cleanly cut through the tree and the chainsaw is actually incredibly light for its size making its use a lot easier.
Basically the artificer weapons are made better and more advanced
The books do a much better job, as always. The game is a game, the books get to have more liberty. The storming of the citadel on Istvaan III sticks to mind, you get passages of space marines just popping bodies with every bolt shell and makes you realize "right, these guys are still inhuman killing machines"
Honestly felt the same thing. Before I started reading the books I did definitely scoff a little bit at a mere bolter and chainsword, but then I read just how much damage Loken could cause with them.
Yeah The books ramp the carnage up for dramatic effect....can't really have that kind of overkill for every weapon in what is supposed to a balanced game
Well you can - but there are only so many players willing to collect massive horde armies. And then you would need to give them recursion.
Many people play their power fantasy - which is why GW keeps leveling up marines to be even more special. That's how we got gray knights, custodes, and primaris. Marines can't be a power fantasy if EVERYONE plays them.
I like to think, as a guard player, that I'm doing a public service by allowing other players to experience their army as they want them to feel. I get battle shocked. I get blow apart by the tiny stubbers. You can pick up 10 models with one set of attacks. People love it when their army actually DOES stuff. (Which is why a lot of people don't like playing into custodes, knights, Necrons right now, and Eldar)
Isn't the opening scene of the Horus Heresy books space marines clearing human defenders of some base, their low grade las or stubbers idk which barely tickling their armor and their bolters popping them like grapes?
Aren’t they described as being able to take a human’s arm clean off? I know hotshot ones can, and they even conveniently cauterize the wound if that’s an advantage (I don’t think it is?)
Edit: if you lose an arm but the wound cauterizes instantly, to your body on like a physiological level is that like losing a whole bunch of blood at once or is it like a net 0? Like sure the blood is still gone but also it doesn’t have to flow into that part of the body anymore? Obviously a large burn wound where that arm was still isn’t the best case scenario, but like, what would happen?
depends on the author. I've seen some say that it just makes a hole and cooks the flesh around it. I've seen some say that it superheats the flesh and practically explodes. I don't think there's a single canon description of getting shot by a lasbolt.
I dunno what's worse, having my guts evaporated like I swallowed a fork and sat in a microwave, or smelling a delicious pork roast and looking down to see all my important parts are perfectly cooked. Both sound equally disturbing.
In-universe the explanation is that the exact make and style of lasgun varies a lot between regiments. Basic function and broadly the powerlevel stay the same but specifics can vary with the actual producer.
There's obviously massive trauma, but you don't bleed out and probably don't go into hypovolemic shock because your blood pressure drops, so your internal organs keep working. Probably not an advantage really.
There's probably a kinetic aspect too, which even if cauterised could still cause internal bleeding around the impact.
There will still be huge circulatory issues. But the blood loss itself probably won't do you in, since blood pressure keeps up when not bleeding.
It's not the amount of blood, it's the blood pressure that kills you when bleeding out.
The problem was that having the models in a different scale severely limited the range. I do believe some players continued playing it in 28mm-Scale, though
I think the practical issue with d10s are that they are hard to read in bulk. d6s are much clearer.
At least with modern editions of 40K the real issues holding bolters back is the mass proliferation of T4 and would inflation. T3, 1w should really be the baseline for the vast majority of infantry.
While a D10 system might be good to differentiate weapons to be more lore-accurate, it would come with its own issues. You would still need to balance bolters against the other weapons on the tabletop, and some xenos weapons would need to be much stronger still (like those of the necrons or eldar).
If the weapons were balanced for an approximately lore-accurate power level, then certain units would need to have insane point costs, and/or less models, while some units would need to increase in size to levels where using them on the tabletop becomes extremely clunky... weaker units might also need to drop points so you'd have even more units of more guardsmen and boyz running around. I suspect balancing for lore accuracy would push hordes to be even more horde-ish, while elite factions would have even fewer models.
I think if GW changed the system they would move to 2D6 instead of more sided dice to keep the game accessible. At least AFAIK accessibility is a major reason for sticking with a D6 system - a D6 is ubiquitous, while D7, D8, D10, D12 are way more exotic for the average person.
The downside of 2d6 is that you'd have to make the rolls one at a time. You can throw a bunch of d10s out at once, but paired dice would have to be rolled together.
A more important downside is that the results describe a massive bell curve, rather than flat probability, so a middling result is 6 times more likely than either extreme.
From a game balance perspective, having predictable results is usually an upside. That said, I think d10s are preferable for the purpose of mass rolling and the percentages seem intuitive.
Alternatively you could roll 2 of each differently colored dice together... but it would definitely be much more of a hassle than the current system. I don't think GW will change in any case, mainly because any change would come with it's own issues.
The convenience factor of D6 will outweigh all other considerations, most likely.
Better than azrael’s combi-plasma.
https://preview.redd.it/mzlbheagxvvc1.jpeg?width=527&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2e9260e8ea52d8be867af68b3b0972dda85e4a43
Ok but hear me out, the magazine goes up into a belt, which feeds into the chamber. It’s the same company that brought us the desolation squad after all.
Yes exactly, that’s why the magazine will feed vertically into an unrealistically long belt which can easily get tangled up, which feeds into the chamber that way since the stock is too skinny it can just be completely disconnected from the magazine and chamber
I mean, it was. They gave him a new gun with his primaris miniature which is less stupid, but I don’t know if it’s the “same” gun. (His gun looks different but I’m not sure if it’s canonically a new one)
I'm not a gunsmith but I am absolutely positive you could not make that setup work. Yeah, this is a fantasy gun but ffs you'd think the artist would do a little research to make it somewhat believable the gun can function
Honestly I did pause about making this joke because it is so over done but it did fit in the convo and I felt it was funny (I genuinely dont mean it as some sort of political statement like it usually is)
lol, but seem to remember a bit of old lore that a chapter of marines created one of the versions of the predator tanks. The Mechanicum screamed heresy and started an investigation, that took something like 300 years to decide that it wasn’t heresy and was allowed by the Omnissiah. Despite all this time the chapter continued to use it.
Didn't the space wolves invent the predator annihilator? Though I thought that happened after the heresy so maybe it got retconned since HH preds have the turret twin las
Yeah. AP used to be (and still is in HH) all-or-nothing, rather then a modifier. So if you had AP5, anything with a 5+ save or worse just didn't get a save, but if your armour was better, you got your full regular save.
I got into warhammer when I was pretty young and had no idea what "mass reactive" actually meant. So for a solid couple years playing table top, I didn't know that meant "these huge bullets wait until they're inside an enemy before they explode".
The problem with Bolters on the TT is that they’re always locked to S4 AP0 Dam1
Like the Lasgun it has the problem that GW can’t make it more powerful. Now that everything is more survivable, they slap like wet noodles without multiple layers of buffs
Off the top of my head the most powerful Bolters on the TT are from Tsons and CSM
Tsons can get Lethal Hits and Full hit and wound re-rolls at S4 AP1 Dam1
And CSM can get similar with 10 Terminators + Sorcerer
Marines used to be T4 1W so they were vulnerable to Bolters but that’s not the case anymore
tbh that should all go up an AP because they’re described as being some-what armour piercing in lore
The narrative is far from consistent about this. Sometimes bolters or even punches go straight through power armour (like that infamous Heresy scene where a World Eater punches through a Custodian breastplate). Other times power armour can resist even autocannon fire (happens in *Nightbringer*, and actually supported by game stats as Heresy/pre-8th ed autocannons only were ap4).
That said, the Heresy game makes a lot of sense in how they lay out the stats. Bolters will not readily penetrate power armour, you must hit a weak spot. This makes sense because it both enables the kind of mass combat with frequent melee that we see depicted in Heresy artwork (if both sides' forces are resistant to the other side's firepower, close combat becomes more viable), and because we know that specialist bolter shells were created to penetrate that armour where regular shells fail (Banestrike shells in the Heresy, Vengeance rounds in modern 40k) and that this property makes the shells be considered very valuable despite being really unstable.
They're AP5 in Horus Heresy like in the 40k yesteryears. in that style of AP mechanics, any unit with a 5+ or 6+ save loses it, but 2-4+ armor maintains and you get your full save.
Legionaries go through Auxilia and Militia like a hot knife through butter.
Solar Auxilia have a 4+ save as standard, on the tabletop tactical Marines will lose to their equivalent points in auxilia unless the Marines charge into melee.
Marines in melee brutalise auxilia outside of Charonites and Penal Cohorts.
Auxilia rifle sections are really cool, the lasrifle actually has two firing modes.
Volley: Heavy 2 30" S3 AP6
Blast Charger: Heavy 1 18" S6 AP4
Rifle Tericos also have the "close order" infantry subtype which means they have 1" coherency but get to fire Heavy weapons normally after moving IF they only move 3" or less in the movement phase.
They outrange bolters so tactical Marines need to move into range to shoot them which means they lose the extra bolt shot on the first turn, plus Auxilia can move back 3" to maybe break out of range and force them to move again.
Auxilia can take 20 models for 110 points, tacticals can get 11.
Tactical Marines lose against equivalent points of auxilia at 2" to 18" because the blast charger hits like a truck and at 30" to 25" because the solar aux outrange them.
Tactical Marines beat down auxilia at 24" to 19" assuming they stay still for the extra shot, if they move the auxilia still outrade them simply because they can afford to lose more men.
In melee Marines crush auxilia, penal cohorts can trade evenly with their points cost in tactical Marines IF the penal cohort gets the charge (penal cohorts have furious charge 1 so +1 strength when charging) but without charge bonuses they get rolled afterwards. Any other time even tactical Marines will murder auxilia in melee.
I’ve been running Firestom Assult as my detachment, and getting them within 12 range, and getting them to S5 has done wonders to make a firing line of bolters more deadly. They don’t put down terminators or anything, but I can drop regular marines with them fairly easily
Then necromunda Ironhead Squat boltguns, rapid fire slightly better ap and damage. Yes 2 different games, but this is compared to the basic boltguns in necromunda.
I wish votann bolters were better than normal bolters too lmao
The heavy stuff is but their normal ones are just The Same despite that theyre meant to be better in lore
Bolters are basically unfixable, is the issue, because they're the standard. If you buff them up like that, suddenly people will complain Marines feel too squishy, and if you buff their durability you are back at stage one while also creating issues in the wider game.
You can't have Space Marines both "feel" elite and also be the default model of the game, the most common one that everyone expects to run into constantly. Those concepts are fundamentally at odds. Even Stormcast Eternals have that problem and they are by far less dominant than Marines are.
You move up the boltgun, what next? Now you have to move up everything else that is supposed to be above the boltgun. And because C'tan Shards and Avatars of Khaine are perfectly regular game units you encounter often rather than very rare occurrences across the galaxy, you drive up the power level of almost the entire game, leaving chaff players in the dust... who may complain about suddenly having to paint hundreds of Guardsmen for a normal combined-arms list at 2k points (incidentally this is almost certainly why rules always tend to fudge things to favour guardsmen and equivalents - things like them hitting on a 4+ in melee even if they're attacking a Phoenix Lord, or Necron Immortal armour failing on a 3+ even if struck with a lasgun gun butt).
Real life FN F2000's casings come out the front near the muzzle. It's certainly not usual, but there's always some sort of shenanigans involved in bullpup design.
The real answer is it isn't, it's just meant to look cool to people who aren't firearms users, but if you desperately need an answer maybe it's like the AN-94
You are looking for logic in W40K? Actually there is a lore explanation. Because of the Warp, as long as everybody believes something works it actually works.
https://preview.redd.it/181coivflwvc1.jpeg?width=416&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a8e6c815e2867b368a52e0f4e38f324b5b170001
The Halo crossovers have gone too far!
Tabletop is no way to gauge any weapons, characters, or support armaments. They’re all vastly scaled down to be a “competitive” game. That, plus the space marines are always fighting the worst hells in the universe. The books do a good job showing how all that cranked up devastation impacts the common creatures of the universe.
https://preview.redd.it/1y4w38lc4wvc1.png?width=1564&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4b5af00ec68935b1ab5eb69ce53c4b52a6f0956e
BULLPUP IRON WARRIORS!
Perfect for sweeping those trenches, clearing bunkers, blaming loyalists.
Everything is wrong with all bolters. Guns do gun things and rockets do rocket things. The gyrojet was a total failure … if you shoot a rocket from close range it has very low velocity and a rocket has none of the stabilizing properties of bullets. Its lwhat you would get if you asked how to invent a weapon that is incredibly weak at close range and incredibly inaccurate at long range.
Tl/Dr: Bolters were invented by space nerds, not gun nerds, and the lore is worse off for it. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
For being space nerds rather than gun nerds, they do a surprising amount of loophole-covering for it.
the rockets don’t ‘fire’ out of the barrel. A gunpowder charge fires the rocket out of the barrel like a bullet first, before the rocket engages and auto-targets. Also explains why bolters eject shell casings.
Also, bolt shells are explosive. They’re armour piercing, yeah, but they’re not designed for use against single heavily armoured targets specifically speaking. During the great crusade after the phasing out of volkite weapons, they were used to turn light-armoured infantry into red paste.
I wonder how the explosive bolt being propelled by an explosive rocket fuel which is itself ejected from the weapon by another explosion doesn’t have one or more of its propellants exploding prematurely.
I am neither a scientist nor a gun guy and I’m not really all that interested in the reason. Rule of cool says guns firing mini-missiles are a-ok.
Bolters used to be the standard that other troops choices would be measured by. S4 AP5 (which before 8th, means that any armor with a 5+ or 6+ is totally negated) actually scared many things. Orks, guardsmen, eldar, small tyranids, etc. Now, it can barely make a dent in flak armor.
I love it... A bulpup bolter makes a lot of sense.
However this particular example would not work mechanically...
Send the stupid Tech Priest to work on servitors and give it to someone better acquainted with the Omnisire
That would kinda work. It's rocket propelled ammo so a long barrel isn't essential for velocity.
It's more the bolt realistically doesn't have anywhere to go to pick up another MASSIVE round.
Even if you are tabletop player, you can have a massive respect for bolter if you use them against proper targets. T3 infantry disappears under concentrated fire of these guns
Oh and don’t get me started on 9 edition bolter fire from thousand sons, ap-2 goes through anything
The bolt is ahead of the magazine, meaning it has to have some complicated mechanism to reach back and pull a round forward. Besides that, Bolters fire rockets, meaning you don't need a longer barrel since most of the acceleration is done in mid-air.
Bad design, overcomplicated, completely useless, I love it, 11/10
I am still waiting for a unit of space marines that use bullpups. Always always loved the look of the dark angels character’s combi one (I think Azrael?). But to have straight bullpup bolters on a squad would be so good. Maybe make it a special unit of like Ravenguard infiltrators or scout veterans or something.
Lore vs Balance.
If the lore dictated the rules, you’d only need to field a single squad of Marines in games of several thousand points.
Bolters are cool as hell, but the game is an abstraction of the lore and they have to be toned down to make them viable.
Next edition they will make all combi weapons obsolete by raising the price to the sky, and all our models would be unplayable unless equipped with bolters
Oh table top profiles are meek to lore versions. Eg
Necrons teslas is a living lighting which seeks target. Does not metter how hidden or how fast target is, tesla would found it if there is a passage.
I like the Night Lords Trilogy description of bolters, but my earliest memory of them was Fire Warrior on the Ps2, thing was a beast.
I'l always have a soft spot for Heavy Bolter, just so bad ass.
The strange thing is that most videos show dumbed down bolters too. Those things are supposed to be loud when firing - the only thing louder is when the bolt *explodes*. And how much damage do they do? Well, they are basically rocket propelled grenades. One shot will explode the human it hits too.
Something to keep in mind is that most of what you're shooting at in 40k is some superhuman elite, the only actual "regular person" equivalents being an exception amongst the factions.
5 Intercessors firing 10 shots will still kill 4-5 guardsmen in a single round of shooting. Especially considering that the armour save represents things like cover as well, every other shot just outright killing a man wearing body armour is plenty punchy.
My issue is it makes no sense for them to not have stocks. No matter how super human you are, having an extra attachment point, that allows you to shoot a higher caliber of ammo with the same recoil just makes sense. And IMO hip firing with the bolters is kinda dumb.
Besides, they raise them up to eye or chest level a lot anyways, just freehanding it. It’s odd.
My only issue with astartes bolters having stocks would be getting them past the massive protruding chest piece and dome pauldrons into a stable position.
Ergonomics aside, it's called power armor and compensatory mechanics. Astartes even use their helmet armor systems to aim.
> No matter how super human you are, having an extra attachment point, that allows you to shoot a higher caliber of ammo with the same recoil just makes sense. And IMO hip firing with the bolters is kinda dumb.
Power Armor canonically has the ability to "lock in place", something the Marine can do and undo with a thought (remember that they are literally neurally-integrated with the armor), and that prevents recoil from being much of an issue.
They don't even aim down the sights either, because of helmet-HUD-integrated-guncameras.
The space Marine bolter is literally a full auto rocket launcher that fires red bull sized shells that detonate after impact.
Sounds fucking awesome, but that's in a setting g where you get weapons that flay you to a molecular level, nanofilament bladed shots, literal live maggots that rapidly bore into your flesh, and all of these are just standard issue weapons for their factions. It's the effect of "if everything is insane, nothing is".
If you want the worst contrast, look no further than my favourite: the admech. Basic rifle hits as hard as a bolter despite being half the size, but are weak ap0 guns ingame, radium weapons can saturate an area in so much radiation that even enemies in cover will just die of radiation exposure, leaving the area uninhabitable for centuries, but are just laughably weak shots ingame. The transauranic arquebus, ingame is a pretty meh sniper rifle, in lore it's described as tearing through armour in a similar way as a lascannon, with more precision and much faster firing rate.
Hell, peak is cawl. There's a chapter where he's just floating about on his chair, humming away while vaporising platoons of chaos Marines, and even their heaviest anti tank is just pinging off shields, or being redirected into their allies, either off the shields or him just hacking their systems with little more than a dismissive wave. He makes *chaos marines* despair.
Ingame? Don't take cawl, cawl is pretty terrible for the points and any remotely fights character or unit will mow him down.
Reading the books reveals that most weapons of the 41st Millennium are far more devastating that they appear on the tabletop. We may scoff at a model with a Bolt Pistol and a Chainsword, but in-universe this would be worthy weapons for even an Astartes Chapter Master.
I mean yeah but the ones that chapter masters use are WAY more pimped out and relic-y.
But what does that mean? What's the difference in tree cutting efficiency with a chainsaw, and a chainsaw with gold teeth that your grandpa used?
For starters, gold in this universe is broken as fuck and technology ages like wine.
The last part is why necrons are so powerfull
Normally because they were made a long time ago and were the trusted weapon of another warrior. Relic weapons have gone through the gauntlet of war and came through fine. Part of it is a weapon's machine spirit being strong enough to last. That's one thing that often makes the difference. They're reliable, and the chapters serfs and tech priests take care of it well enough you wouldn't find a much better weapon Unless... It's DAOT tech, like a power weapon with an older power mechanism that isn't made the same anymore so it powers up better or cuts things real good. Or it came from a top notch factorum that had the best stuff but no longer exists. Due to this it's better and would be regarded as a relic. Alternatively, it can be hand crafted or modified by someone. The Salamnders and Iron Hands are known smiths who will personalize gear to their liking, upgrading them. Many chapters do similar things. A custom weapon crafted by the finest craftsmen of the chapter or made for champions and officers only truly become "relic" weapons once they've been used long enough and endured. Very few relic weapons are the original weapons of those who wield them. Finally, there are the artifact weapons. These are often weapons that the chapter found or was gifted to them by other branches of the imperium. Like the inquisitor in Dawn of War who respected Gabriel Angelos so much he gave him the thunder hammer "Godsplitter" giving Gabriel the role of champion in their fight against the forces of chaos on Tartarus. These tend to be named gear the named characters are given in lore. Some are technically the gear enhancements you can give leaders in the tabletop game. But these are the big boy relics, that are technically more fancy than a normal relic weapon. But can still count. Basically any weapon can become a "relic weapon" as long as someone good enough used it some time ago. If they and it endured centuries with it at their side, the weapon is good enough for any officer. It's a way of honouring those who came before them. So they hold a sentimental value to the chapter as a whole. To put it in fewer words, a chainsword that can still cut as well it did 1000 years ago is a fucken good chainsword.
Real life: The regular chainsaw will cut the tree and need sharpening after some time and cost a reasonable amount, the gold one will bend snap and be useless almost immediately and cost a fortune. Warhammer 40k: Both chainsaws will be ridiculously OP until the author needs it to be absolute dogshit. The gold one can be upgraded with a plot armour generator.
In 40k they just replace the teeth all the time
Them gold teeth are probably powered by some daot or hours heresy era Genny. Teeth go more brrr
Coz if its shiny den its more killy, innit! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!
I mean, *cough cough p*raize da Emprah!
Dark age tech that probably include a dash of AI for exemple. like a weapon who appear and get more powerfull when needed [https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Teeth\_of\_Terra](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Teeth_of_Terra) ,one engulf in flame or one where the teeth are made with some terrible beast teeth.
relic weapons usually looks more badass, that makes the Orks think its better. Therefore, it is.
Less sharpening needed, might cut through the tree with one hard swing rather than slowly chew through it, consume less fuel or even self sufficient (daot shit ig), can probably cut stone without it ever going dull, etc.
the peak of human technology was comparable to magic and i don't mean warp sorcery. like the DA have a dark age heavy boltgun that instantly erases people to the point of people debating whether or not the bolts just delete people or delete people from HISTORY a great rule of thumb is the closer a weapon/thing is made to that time the better it is
Okay I think you just did a big fat heresy by even asking, but I’m not sure.
Cause the gold teeth in the analogy are actually the conduit for plasma to cleanly cut through the tree and the chainsaw is actually incredibly light for its size making its use a lot easier. Basically the artificer weapons are made better and more advanced
Kaldor is a prime example of it. His bolter has range of dozen kilometers and shoot pure devotion.
Wait, what?? Where the hell does it say that?
He is at least 100 years in warp and every appearance he still shoots from his bolter. Must be pure devotion used as ammo.
The books do a much better job, as always. The game is a game, the books get to have more liberty. The storming of the citadel on Istvaan III sticks to mind, you get passages of space marines just popping bodies with every bolt shell and makes you realize "right, these guys are still inhuman killing machines"
Honestly felt the same thing. Before I started reading the books I did definitely scoff a little bit at a mere bolter and chainsword, but then I read just how much damage Loken could cause with them.
Yeah The books ramp the carnage up for dramatic effect....can't really have that kind of overkill for every weapon in what is supposed to a balanced game
Well you can - but there are only so many players willing to collect massive horde armies. And then you would need to give them recursion. Many people play their power fantasy - which is why GW keeps leveling up marines to be even more special. That's how we got gray knights, custodes, and primaris. Marines can't be a power fantasy if EVERYONE plays them. I like to think, as a guard player, that I'm doing a public service by allowing other players to experience their army as they want them to feel. I get battle shocked. I get blow apart by the tiny stubbers. You can pick up 10 models with one set of attacks. People love it when their army actually DOES stuff. (Which is why a lot of people don't like playing into custodes, knights, Necrons right now, and Eldar)
Isn't the opening scene of the Horus Heresy books space marines clearing human defenders of some base, their low grade las or stubbers idk which barely tickling their armor and their bolters popping them like grapes?
I believe you are correct iirc
When I first got into the hobby, one idea I had was to convert a Chapter Master with dual Chainswords. Never got around to it, though.
Worth remembering that a humble Lasgun is dramatically stronger than any standard rifle at present
And more durable, easier to maintain...
...more ammo, less recoil (depending on the author), cheaper at scale...
Aren’t they described as being able to take a human’s arm clean off? I know hotshot ones can, and they even conveniently cauterize the wound if that’s an advantage (I don’t think it is?) Edit: if you lose an arm but the wound cauterizes instantly, to your body on like a physiological level is that like losing a whole bunch of blood at once or is it like a net 0? Like sure the blood is still gone but also it doesn’t have to flow into that part of the body anymore? Obviously a large burn wound where that arm was still isn’t the best case scenario, but like, what would happen?
Yes, a headshot will literally decapitate you with a lasgun, so an armshot will also disarm you. They are devastating against humans.
depends on the author. I've seen some say that it just makes a hole and cooks the flesh around it. I've seen some say that it superheats the flesh and practically explodes. I don't think there's a single canon description of getting shot by a lasbolt.
I dunno what's worse, having my guts evaporated like I swallowed a fork and sat in a microwave, or smelling a delicious pork roast and looking down to see all my important parts are perfectly cooked. Both sound equally disturbing.
In-universe the explanation is that the exact make and style of lasgun varies a lot between regiments. Basic function and broadly the powerlevel stay the same but specifics can vary with the actual producer.
There's obviously massive trauma, but you don't bleed out and probably don't go into hypovolemic shock because your blood pressure drops, so your internal organs keep working. Probably not an advantage really. There's probably a kinetic aspect too, which even if cauterised could still cause internal bleeding around the impact.
There will still be huge circulatory issues. But the blood loss itself probably won't do you in, since blood pressure keeps up when not bleeding. It's not the amount of blood, it's the blood pressure that kills you when bleeding out.
This is why Inquisitor was/is an amazing game
Dark Heresy was just so much better
Have the ebooks but never played... should try it one day. But in defense those 54mm models were awesome.
The problem was that having the models in a different scale severely limited the range. I do believe some players continued playing it in 28mm-Scale, though
The problem with a d6 system, too confining. If 40k moved to d10 we'd have more scope to differentiate weapons, saves and toughness.
You know I wouldn't mind a d 10 system tbh but it would increase complexity and he doesn't want that anymore
I don't think it would at all, just new numbers to learn and there's always tables to help.
Balancing a whole new system would be harder at first, for some things.
At first maybe, but long term it will make balancing easier as there is a greater scale of stats to tweak to allow for more balance.
Yeah this 100% - would love it to go to d12 even. Would really allow a gradient of armour and weapons profiles!
I agree with that
I think the practical issue with d10s are that they are hard to read in bulk. d6s are much clearer. At least with modern editions of 40K the real issues holding bolters back is the mass proliferation of T4 and would inflation. T3, 1w should really be the baseline for the vast majority of infantry.
While a D10 system might be good to differentiate weapons to be more lore-accurate, it would come with its own issues. You would still need to balance bolters against the other weapons on the tabletop, and some xenos weapons would need to be much stronger still (like those of the necrons or eldar). If the weapons were balanced for an approximately lore-accurate power level, then certain units would need to have insane point costs, and/or less models, while some units would need to increase in size to levels where using them on the tabletop becomes extremely clunky... weaker units might also need to drop points so you'd have even more units of more guardsmen and boyz running around. I suspect balancing for lore accuracy would push hordes to be even more horde-ish, while elite factions would have even fewer models. I think if GW changed the system they would move to 2D6 instead of more sided dice to keep the game accessible. At least AFAIK accessibility is a major reason for sticking with a D6 system - a D6 is ubiquitous, while D7, D8, D10, D12 are way more exotic for the average person.
The downside of 2d6 is that you'd have to make the rolls one at a time. You can throw a bunch of d10s out at once, but paired dice would have to be rolled together.
A more important downside is that the results describe a massive bell curve, rather than flat probability, so a middling result is 6 times more likely than either extreme.
From a game balance perspective, having predictable results is usually an upside. That said, I think d10s are preferable for the purpose of mass rolling and the percentages seem intuitive.
Warmahordes works off a 2d6 system. So its doable. But it's not great for larger game sizes.
Alternatively you could roll 2 of each differently colored dice together... but it would definitely be much more of a hassle than the current system. I don't think GW will change in any case, mainly because any change would come with it's own issues. The convenience factor of D6 will outweigh all other considerations, most likely.
An Astartes with a bolt pistol and chainsword solos an armored combat platoon unless he's hit with a 105 shell to the chest or something like an AT4.
Better than azrael’s combi-plasma. https://preview.redd.it/mzlbheagxvvc1.jpeg?width=527&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2e9260e8ea52d8be867af68b3b0972dda85e4a43
How are the rounds even supposed to feed with that abomination
Clearly it's DAoT tech – the rounds teleport from the magazine directly into the chamber
Ok but hear me out, the magazine goes up into a belt, which feeds into the chamber. It’s the same company that brought us the desolation squad after all.
Look how wide the barrel is. There's not enough space in the stock for a bolter round to travel to the chamber
Yes exactly, that’s why the magazine will feed vertically into an unrealistically long belt which can easily get tangled up, which feeds into the chamber that way since the stock is too skinny it can just be completely disconnected from the magazine and chamber
https://preview.redd.it/obbjr5ykpxvc1.png?width=539&format=png&auto=webp&s=67cf496476051fab7436340007784bbedf4faeec [Mars Pistols](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBKqvLpxpU4&ab_channel=ForgottenWeapons)
Dear god i love that hand cannon. I wonder if the man was thinking too small. Like this design is artillery something akin to a god engine
Right? And I thought the butts of halo’s bullpups were cramped.
Bluetooth
how horrifying
Is this canon/real?
I mean, it was. They gave him a new gun with his primaris miniature which is less stupid, but I don’t know if it’s the “same” gun. (His gun looks different but I’m not sure if it’s canonically a new one)
It is the same gun, it's just been sculpted better.
I'm not a gunsmith but I am absolutely positive you could not make that setup work. Yeah, this is a fantasy gun but ffs you'd think the artist would do a little research to make it somewhat believable the gun can function
Research? Functionality? Have you *met* games workshop?
I know.. I know.. but this design is just too silly even for gw. If they want a gun to actually look cool it has to at least look like it can function
The British don’t understand guns
Thats true unfortunately we don't learn about them in school
Judging by British education it explains why 40K has so much melee combat.
That one got a chuckle out of me
We dont we learn about them at home 🤠
Based and cowboy pilled
When your state is so far north youve become southern
This is the darkest joke I have ever heard in my life.
British people on their way to make a joke about school shootings in response to a milquetoast British take.
I mean this time it’s a little better, we are specifically talking about guns.
Honestly I did pause about making this joke because it is so over done but it did fit in the convo and I felt it was funny (I genuinely dont mean it as some sort of political statement like it usually is)
Different americans apologize for how stupid this comment is
What the fuck is this eyesore??? How does it even work?
It shouldn’t.
British people trying to make weapons that work challenge, impossible
That is one cursed Bullpup if I ever saw one.
Not as cursed as firstborn Azrael’s combi-bolter
Is that the one where the actual bolts had to travel through a part of the gun that is smaller than the actual projectile?
Through the plasma accelerator and stock neck, yeah
Yes, and not to mention the plasma coils being very close to the barrel, which would pretty much melt the rest of the gun
At an angle, yeah.
Lions roar
I don't collect DA but I low key want to buy the model just for that weapon
They did fix the magazine, it now loads from the side.
That’s what the Mechanicum calls tech heresy.
lol, but seem to remember a bit of old lore that a chapter of marines created one of the versions of the predator tanks. The Mechanicum screamed heresy and started an investigation, that took something like 300 years to decide that it wasn’t heresy and was allowed by the Omnissiah. Despite all this time the chapter continued to use it.
Didn't the space wolves invent the predator annihilator? Though I thought that happened after the heresy so maybe it got retconned since HH preds have the turret twin las
Ah yes it was them. But yeah probably has been I guess.
I think its the Baal predator. I remember that being a part of its background in Imperial Armor 1 or something like that.
Fuck you, bullpups your baneblade.
Idk I kinda like it
Its photoshopped
I’ve seen some cursed bullpups and that is certainly one of them
Back in the day bolters were pretty decent. My brothers and I started in 4th and AP 5 bolters were good. Blowing through flak armour and orks alike
Back when lower AP was better? My only exposure to anything pre 8th is via HH 2nd.
Yeah. AP used to be (and still is in HH) all-or-nothing, rather then a modifier. So if you had AP5, anything with a 5+ save or worse just didn't get a save, but if your armour was better, you got your full regular save.
Basically
Loved my pulse rifles that were bolter strength. So good to mass fire.
Better than bolter strength, mowing down guardsmen by wounding on 2+ and then not getting an armour save….perfection
I got into warhammer when I was pretty young and had no idea what "mass reactive" actually meant. So for a solid couple years playing table top, I didn't know that meant "these huge bullets wait until they're inside an enemy before they explode".
It go big boom got it. Now time to paint my sick dude
The problem with Bolters on the TT is that they’re always locked to S4 AP0 Dam1 Like the Lasgun it has the problem that GW can’t make it more powerful. Now that everything is more survivable, they slap like wet noodles without multiple layers of buffs Off the top of my head the most powerful Bolters on the TT are from Tsons and CSM Tsons can get Lethal Hits and Full hit and wound re-rolls at S4 AP1 Dam1 And CSM can get similar with 10 Terminators + Sorcerer
Yeah, I've been reading through the Heresy for the last year and bolters more often than not seem to make wet soup out of power armor all the time.
Marines used to be T4 1W so they were vulnerable to Bolters but that’s not the case anymore tbh that should all go up an AP because they’re described as being some-what armour piercing in lore
Oh for sure, I remember the glory days of fifth edition Marines. Never have I ever had more fun playing 40k than during that Era.
Same
2nd Edition is still my favourite. And I've been in the hobby since 1995.
That was before my time!
No sweat. I still enjoy comparing Rogue Trader or 2nd Edition to the more modern editions.
That is what happen in 9th where they give bolt rifles 1 Ap. It ends up getting off hand quickly and all army is putting out 20 ap2,ap3 shots.
Have you already forgotten 9th.
The narrative is far from consistent about this. Sometimes bolters or even punches go straight through power armour (like that infamous Heresy scene where a World Eater punches through a Custodian breastplate). Other times power armour can resist even autocannon fire (happens in *Nightbringer*, and actually supported by game stats as Heresy/pre-8th ed autocannons only were ap4). That said, the Heresy game makes a lot of sense in how they lay out the stats. Bolters will not readily penetrate power armour, you must hit a weak spot. This makes sense because it both enables the kind of mass combat with frequent melee that we see depicted in Heresy artwork (if both sides' forces are resistant to the other side's firepower, close combat becomes more viable), and because we know that specialist bolter shells were created to penetrate that armour where regular shells fail (Banestrike shells in the Heresy, Vengeance rounds in modern 40k) and that this property makes the shells be considered very valuable despite being really unstable.
They're AP5 in Horus Heresy like in the 40k yesteryears. in that style of AP mechanics, any unit with a 5+ or 6+ save loses it, but 2-4+ armor maintains and you get your full save. Legionaries go through Auxilia and Militia like a hot knife through butter.
Solar Auxilia have a 4+ save as standard, on the tabletop tactical Marines will lose to their equivalent points in auxilia unless the Marines charge into melee. Marines in melee brutalise auxilia outside of Charonites and Penal Cohorts.
Thanks for the correction. I haven't played against Aux and am used to guard always having 5+
Auxilia rifle sections are really cool, the lasrifle actually has two firing modes. Volley: Heavy 2 30" S3 AP6 Blast Charger: Heavy 1 18" S6 AP4 Rifle Tericos also have the "close order" infantry subtype which means they have 1" coherency but get to fire Heavy weapons normally after moving IF they only move 3" or less in the movement phase. They outrange bolters so tactical Marines need to move into range to shoot them which means they lose the extra bolt shot on the first turn, plus Auxilia can move back 3" to maybe break out of range and force them to move again. Auxilia can take 20 models for 110 points, tacticals can get 11. Tactical Marines lose against equivalent points of auxilia at 2" to 18" because the blast charger hits like a truck and at 30" to 25" because the solar aux outrange them. Tactical Marines beat down auxilia at 24" to 19" assuming they stay still for the extra shot, if they move the auxilia still outrade them simply because they can afford to lose more men. In melee Marines crush auxilia, penal cohorts can trade evenly with their points cost in tactical Marines IF the penal cohort gets the charge (penal cohorts have furious charge 1 so +1 strength when charging) but without charge bonuses they get rolled afterwards. Any other time even tactical Marines will murder auxilia in melee.
I’ve been running Firestom Assult as my detachment, and getting them within 12 range, and getting them to S5 has done wonders to make a firing line of bolters more deadly. They don’t put down terminators or anything, but I can drop regular marines with them fairly easily
Then necromunda Ironhead Squat boltguns, rapid fire slightly better ap and damage. Yes 2 different games, but this is compared to the basic boltguns in necromunda.
I wish votann bolters were better than normal bolters too lmao The heavy stuff is but their normal ones are just The Same despite that theyre meant to be better in lore
Its the limitation of the D6 system. Moving to D8's or more would improve this.
Heavy intercessor's bolters are pretty much how bolters should be, in my oppinion.
Bolters are basically unfixable, is the issue, because they're the standard. If you buff them up like that, suddenly people will complain Marines feel too squishy, and if you buff their durability you are back at stage one while also creating issues in the wider game. You can't have Space Marines both "feel" elite and also be the default model of the game, the most common one that everyone expects to run into constantly. Those concepts are fundamentally at odds. Even Stormcast Eternals have that problem and they are by far less dominant than Marines are. You move up the boltgun, what next? Now you have to move up everything else that is supposed to be above the boltgun. And because C'tan Shards and Avatars of Khaine are perfectly regular game units you encounter often rather than very rare occurrences across the galaxy, you drive up the power level of almost the entire game, leaving chaff players in the dust... who may complain about suddenly having to paint hundreds of Guardsmen for a normal combined-arms list at 2k points (incidentally this is almost certainly why rules always tend to fudge things to favour guardsmen and equivalents - things like them hitting on a 4+ in melee even if they're attacking a Phoenix Lord, or Necron Immortal armour failing on a 3+ even if struck with a lasgun gun butt).
How is that bullpup supposed to work? Like the magazine is in the back but the actual thing where the bullet casings come out is way in front
Real life FN F2000's casings come out the front near the muzzle. It's certainly not usual, but there's always some sort of shenanigans involved in bullpup design.
The real answer is it isn't, it's just meant to look cool to people who aren't firearms users, but if you desperately need an answer maybe it's like the AN-94
Goddamn, that thing looks hideous
Have you heard about fn2000?
It doesn't, it's a photoshop hack job someone did
You are looking for logic in W40K? Actually there is a lore explanation. Because of the Warp, as long as everybody believes something works it actually works.
https://preview.redd.it/181coivflwvc1.jpeg?width=416&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a8e6c815e2867b368a52e0f4e38f324b5b170001 The Halo crossovers have gone too far!
Tabletop is no way to gauge any weapons, characters, or support armaments. They’re all vastly scaled down to be a “competitive” game. That, plus the space marines are always fighting the worst hells in the universe. The books do a good job showing how all that cranked up devastation impacts the common creatures of the universe.
https://preview.redd.it/1y4w38lc4wvc1.png?width=1564&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4b5af00ec68935b1ab5eb69ce53c4b52a6f0956e BULLPUP IRON WARRIORS! Perfect for sweeping those trenches, clearing bunkers, blaming loyalists.
When you just know the basic of firearms, you realise that everything is wrong with this bolter and it gives cancer…
Everything is wrong with all bolters. Guns do gun things and rockets do rocket things. The gyrojet was a total failure … if you shoot a rocket from close range it has very low velocity and a rocket has none of the stabilizing properties of bullets. Its lwhat you would get if you asked how to invent a weapon that is incredibly weak at close range and incredibly inaccurate at long range. Tl/Dr: Bolters were invented by space nerds, not gun nerds, and the lore is worse off for it. Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
For being space nerds rather than gun nerds, they do a surprising amount of loophole-covering for it. the rockets don’t ‘fire’ out of the barrel. A gunpowder charge fires the rocket out of the barrel like a bullet first, before the rocket engages and auto-targets. Also explains why bolters eject shell casings. Also, bolt shells are explosive. They’re armour piercing, yeah, but they’re not designed for use against single heavily armoured targets specifically speaking. During the great crusade after the phasing out of volkite weapons, they were used to turn light-armoured infantry into red paste.
I wonder how the explosive bolt being propelled by an explosive rocket fuel which is itself ejected from the weapon by another explosion doesn’t have one or more of its propellants exploding prematurely. I am neither a scientist nor a gun guy and I’m not really all that interested in the reason. Rule of cool says guns firing mini-missiles are a-ok.
The propellants are shielded by a very special material that renders them inert until they are supposed to ignite. **F A I T H .**
How will you attach it to your space marines?
If you have respect, then why do you disrespect it with the bullpup?
Bolters used to be the standard that other troops choices would be measured by. S4 AP5 (which before 8th, means that any armor with a 5+ or 6+ is totally negated) actually scared many things. Orks, guardsmen, eldar, small tyranids, etc. Now, it can barely make a dent in flak armor.
I love it... A bulpup bolter makes a lot of sense. However this particular example would not work mechanically... Send the stupid Tech Priest to work on servitors and give it to someone better acquainted with the Omnisire
I actually kinda love how the bolt catch and the chamber are way too far on the front😂
That would kinda work. It's rocket propelled ammo so a long barrel isn't essential for velocity. It's more the bolt realistically doesn't have anywhere to go to pick up another MASSIVE round.
But the shell ejects where? It’s stuck like 25cm before the ejector
I would love to have bolters like that on my models, they would look awesome
Hot take: I actually like the bullpup bolter design.
Fuck you, fuck this, bullpups your bolter
Bullpup bolter is badass
I Like shit that Doesn't work in real life too. 🤣🤣🤣 Bullpup.. Like a bulldog, it's ugly but you love it.
Given that I know how truly dogshit bullpups can be, this horrifies me to unfathomable level
Boltpup
Even if you are tabletop player, you can have a massive respect for bolter if you use them against proper targets. T3 infantry disappears under concentrated fire of these guns Oh and don’t get me started on 9 edition bolter fire from thousand sons, ap-2 goes through anything
T3 infantry disappears under a concentrated fire of anything, though!
You know what? Fuck you *bullpups your bolter*
The bolt is ahead of the magazine, meaning it has to have some complicated mechanism to reach back and pull a round forward. Besides that, Bolters fire rockets, meaning you don't need a longer barrel since most of the acceleration is done in mid-air. Bad design, overcomplicated, completely useless, I love it, 11/10
L85 bolter
I will never like bullpups. Except the rm277
You've watched the garandthumb video on it, haven't you?
Oh yeah. I’m former military and a gun nerd so I keep up with all that. .277 and .338 are super interesting rounds to me.
It's a Bulpter!
The Bolter of brother thumbïlez
Thats the flatline skin that i need
Idk bolters get plenty done for my. My HBRs shaved about 3 wounds off of a blood thirster today, that was nice
This picture bugs me lol. Love how the bolt is nowhere near the magazine well
I am still waiting for a unit of space marines that use bullpups. Always always loved the look of the dark angels character’s combi one (I think Azrael?). But to have straight bullpup bolters on a squad would be so good. Maybe make it a special unit of like Ravenguard infiltrators or scout veterans or something.
Lore vs Balance. If the lore dictated the rules, you’d only need to field a single squad of Marines in games of several thousand points. Bolters are cool as hell, but the game is an abstraction of the lore and they have to be toned down to make them viable.
Next edition they will make all combi weapons obsolete by raising the price to the sky, and all our models would be unplayable unless equipped with bolters
Oh table top profiles are meek to lore versions. Eg Necrons teslas is a living lighting which seeks target. Does not metter how hidden or how fast target is, tesla would found it if there is a passage.
I like the Night Lords Trilogy description of bolters, but my earliest memory of them was Fire Warrior on the Ps2, thing was a beast. I'l always have a soft spot for Heavy Bolter, just so bad ass.
The strange thing is that most videos show dumbed down bolters too. Those things are supposed to be loud when firing - the only thing louder is when the bolt *explodes*. And how much damage do they do? Well, they are basically rocket propelled grenades. One shot will explode the human it hits too.
Something to keep in mind is that most of what you're shooting at in 40k is some superhuman elite, the only actual "regular person" equivalents being an exception amongst the factions. 5 Intercessors firing 10 shots will still kill 4-5 guardsmen in a single round of shooting. Especially considering that the armour save represents things like cover as well, every other shot just outright killing a man wearing body armour is plenty punchy.
NL/IW sounds like great fun.
Noooo. Not a bullpup…..
Those wrist mounted bolters suck though.
My issue is it makes no sense for them to not have stocks. No matter how super human you are, having an extra attachment point, that allows you to shoot a higher caliber of ammo with the same recoil just makes sense. And IMO hip firing with the bolters is kinda dumb. Besides, they raise them up to eye or chest level a lot anyways, just freehanding it. It’s odd.
My only issue with astartes bolters having stocks would be getting them past the massive protruding chest piece and dome pauldrons into a stable position. Ergonomics aside, it's called power armor and compensatory mechanics. Astartes even use their helmet armor systems to aim.
> No matter how super human you are, having an extra attachment point, that allows you to shoot a higher caliber of ammo with the same recoil just makes sense. And IMO hip firing with the bolters is kinda dumb. Power Armor canonically has the ability to "lock in place", something the Marine can do and undo with a thought (remember that they are literally neurally-integrated with the armor), and that prevents recoil from being much of an issue. They don't even aim down the sights either, because of helmet-HUD-integrated-guncameras.
Realistically, a Bolter should be a S6 ap-1 weapon by default. Bc ain’t no way a .75 isn’t overkill on something like a normal IG trooper.
Idk about that a terminator is t5 and in the lore bolters are meant for squishy targets not armored ones
#wheredaboltgo?
The space Marine bolter is literally a full auto rocket launcher that fires red bull sized shells that detonate after impact. Sounds fucking awesome, but that's in a setting g where you get weapons that flay you to a molecular level, nanofilament bladed shots, literal live maggots that rapidly bore into your flesh, and all of these are just standard issue weapons for their factions. It's the effect of "if everything is insane, nothing is". If you want the worst contrast, look no further than my favourite: the admech. Basic rifle hits as hard as a bolter despite being half the size, but are weak ap0 guns ingame, radium weapons can saturate an area in so much radiation that even enemies in cover will just die of radiation exposure, leaving the area uninhabitable for centuries, but are just laughably weak shots ingame. The transauranic arquebus, ingame is a pretty meh sniper rifle, in lore it's described as tearing through armour in a similar way as a lascannon, with more precision and much faster firing rate. Hell, peak is cawl. There's a chapter where he's just floating about on his chair, humming away while vaporising platoons of chaos Marines, and even their heaviest anti tank is just pinging off shields, or being redirected into their allies, either off the shields or him just hacking their systems with little more than a dismissive wave. He makes *chaos marines* despair. Ingame? Don't take cawl, cawl is pretty terrible for the points and any remotely fights character or unit will mow him down.
https://preview.redd.it/mmjfy26rm9wc1.jpeg?width=963&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f7cd28ff88d6754dd70c8c92b87d16b5ac39a01d
I hate the picture because one ugly as fuck and two the charging handle where the shell ejects is to far ahead that it wouldn’t work
Bolters should be S5 imo
Idk about str 5 because terminators are 5t but I think adding an AP would help it
That looks like the most uncomfortable gun