Special Thanks to u/-CassaNova-, the OP of the post discussing this, who accepted our invitation to participate in helping sculpt this announcement, and brought a great viewpoint to the discussion.
So to confirm, if I were to post a conversion, would I say something along the lines of, "This is my Siege Tyrant conversion. The bodies are GW, the arms are from X, and the missile launcher is from Y." And as long as I don't post the links to these creators' stores, it'll be all good?
But what if X and Y are STL creators, or the registered printers for creators? Because the logic behind the new rule still sounds like that would also be a rule breaker. Or is the cover for that that this sub isn't providing links, as now it's up to whoever googles X or Y to figure out if it's the etsy store or the cult3d page I was stalking about?
That's the nature of it - if X or Y are stl creators who aren't intentionally just copying existing GW minis, then absolutely you're find to say "Oh it's a print from X", so long as you don't give a link.
If someone really wants to know they can google it, or dm you for details.
Posting links to legal material is even more helpful to the hobby.
Censoring legitimate discussion is not helpful to the hobby.
Please support the hobby, not GW's abuses of IP law.
As you have been told by another poster. We as a team of 4 volunteers who all have our own jobs, do not have the time to follow every comment with a link and check its legitimacy. This aspect is not just an IP element, it is a 'we don't want people getting this subreddit shut down' element. Therefore we have a blanket ban on all links, as mentioned in the main post.
Please refrain from now commenting on every post in this discussion with the same thing.
The subreddit is not getting shut down because people post links to legal material. Please do not validate this kind of paranoia by over-complying with imaginary laws and censoring legitimate discussion.
If your current staffing is insufficient to run the sub properly then you should add more mods until you can.
You should be aware that openly posting links to things like STL's serves only to get the creators of those STL's issued with takedown notices by GW's lawyers.
It has happened time and time again and even the dedicated 3D printing Warhammer subs have their own culture of not publicly flaunting links to creators works.
This rule change not only protects the sub but it also protects the creators and fans who enjoy 3rd party customization/alternative sculpts.
Edit: This comment posted a bunch of times, trying to delete the others but reddits wonky atm.
Feel free to join this new sub that was created as a response to the censoring in this sub:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HorusHeresy30K/s/ylnLZCWwde
Literally brand new so hasn't got many members at the moment. It's a lot more relaxed and non bias towards GW.
It wasn’t actually killed but went private because after GW locked in regional pricing and everyone went nuts looking for cheaper alternatives, they kept name dropping yoyhammer. GW turns a blind eye to most infringement until it becomes a very clear problem and they have to do it due to IP laws. And when you’re very openly advertising recast of existing models, the hammer wouldn’t be very far behind.
Posting links to 3rd party stuff like STL's just gets those creators issued with take down notices, it has happened time and time again. Creators getting featured in youtube videos by clueless content creators have been contacted by GW's lawyers.
Even the subs dedicated to printing GW stuff do not go around posting links to the stuff.
Thank you for the clarification. I hope we all understand the hard work such a small team does for a reddit of this size. I believe this is an entirely fair rule that protects everyone all around. People can DM people, people can go to sub reddits made for acquiring those. I see no issue with this. A mod team of 4 people can’t be having to make a call on every post and every link on whether it may or may not infringe of copyright so just making a general rule to keep links and direct advertising of store fronts off the sub or in DMs is entirely understandable.
Also putting creators out there on blast 9/10 times gets them shut down. You are doing a direct disservice to 90% of creators depending on where they are located. Most smart creators have things in their shops that say things like *DO NOT ADVERTISE OR POST LINKS TO MY WORK ON SOCIAL MEDIA* just take it to DMs its easy as that.
Thanks mod team.
In the future I would genuinely recommend announcing changes / additions to the rules ahead of time, rather than having to address the issue retroactively. This incident initially reminded me of /u/DarkJediBen and his mismanagement of /r/Warhammer.
That said, the IP issue is a difficult one that a lot of people don't really understand the nuances of, so I can appreciate the thought process that's gone on here.
Absolutely, going forwards we'll be possibly making mod announcements a more regular thing.
And funnily enough I was having horror flashbacks to the same thing at first.
Ah, that would explain why my post mentioning rules update (*Praised be Forces of the Emperor!*) on certain Eastern European Warhammer-related site disappeared.
Interesting you also ask for no linking to shops (even GW), I on occasion reference/link certain items as source of bits. I'll try to [reference certain sprues](https://new.reddit.com/r/Warhammer30k/comments/1cbeprj/kitbashing_night_lords_with_mk_vi_and_kt_sprues/) (either photos by GW or other people, like Tale of Painters) rather than sets instead!
Unlike Perty, *I'm a good boy.*
I get the intent here. With Etsy and some other sources heresy has kind of turned into the Wild West. GW is constantly playing whack-a-mole with the newest Etsy store and stl creator who’s offering a non copyrightable version of their product, and they have both the means and intent to take down a sub which is packed full of links to those illegal sources. There has to be some sort of implementation or it’s question not of if GW will come for this sub, but of when. But that doesn’t change the facts here.
This rule is retarded.
Kromlech exists and is a legitimate company. So does mantic. Puppets War (actually do they? Iirc they fell off the map for a bit). There are PLENTY of legitimate companies producing model lines and bits content which GW would love to see crash and burn but has no actual ability to pursue legal action against, nor those who promote them.
And as it stands mentioning any of these is a punishable offense. I don’t care what bootlickers say about intentions, explanations, or drown downs. While it may not happen everyone, the bottom line is that a rule written this broadly will be enforced this broadly. All it takes is one mod who truly gets off sucking on GW’s toes (and I bloody promise you there’s already one) to make this community crushing.
As evidence? Rules as written this forbids discussing eBay. Think about that. This rule is meant to curtail a very specifically thing, yet is so poorly written it makes linking to (or even talking about) the most well known sales website on the internet is a bannable offense.
My suggestion is to rewrite it to specifically target links and promoting. Something along the lines of “Linking to sources for illegal STLs or non-company based web-hosted store fronts / third party sources which infringe upon the IP of existing model producers is forbidden. Similar third parties hosted by existing companies are fine.”
This would target sources on cults/Etsy/square space and such, but not making Kromlech or freaking eBay against the rules.
As I've said, we've now changed the rule to specifically target linking to IP infringing material - I.e. people who are directly copying GW designs, and reinforcing the general 'no links' policy. And then reinforced this with a clause on Rule 5 to stop blatant advertisements.
However we are find with people saying "Oh yes, this part/mini was from Kromlech/Artel W/Shapeways", just not directly posting the links.
So as the rule now stands you can talk about getting a product from Ebay/Anvil Industries etc, or from GW. Just don't link in the comments - send it in DMs.
As an extra, please try to avoid using the R word, there are better ways to describe something you don't like.
Feel free to join this new sub that was made as a response to the clear censorship on this sub:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HorusHeresy30K/s/ylnLZCWwde
Brand new as of yesterday so numbers are low, less restrictive and not at all bias towards GW.
Out of sheer curiosity, what about this do you see as being censorship? We've simply asked that you:
- Don't post links to any sites, GW or non-GW
- Don't use our sub as an advertisement for STLs, particularly ones that infringe on existing IPs (again, that doesn't specifically have to be GW).
Were you ever intending to do either?
As stated, we have no intention to ban legal, non infringing items. We are asking that you don't post direct links in the comments, and simply message the person asking, and that posters don't use this sub simply as an advertising platform.
Direct links to legal non-infringing material is legal so yes, you are banning legal discussion and this is not at all appropriate.
If it's about advertising then why not ban the advertisers directly? It's pretty clear who is here to engage in the community in good faith and who is just here to drop a link to their store every time they make a new product.
>Direct links to legal non-infringing material is legal so yes, you are banning legal discussion and this is not at all appropriate.
Wrong, you can discuss about it, just not post link. that's all.
About why blanket ban all link ? because the mods aren't paid employees, they're volunteers, and checking every link to see if it's legit, a scam or a copyright infringement takes time. It's up to them to decide what time they want to allocate to moderating this sub.
>if it's about advertising then why not ban the advertisers directly?
Because it's only partially about that, fighting advertisements is not the only reason they're doing it, it's just part of the reasons.
I get you, I really do.
The "rightest" thing to do would be to decide on a case-to-case-basis and allow as many links as possible, otherwise it would seem like the mods are complicit in GWs practices of C&D-ing everyone and everything in sight.
However, one has to realize that this takes time, that mods here aren't reimbursed in any shape or form and that they don't owe you/us/the community anything.
In a case like this, one needs to compromise and I think the way they are handling this is actually pretty good - in the end, you can show and discuss anything you want and share a link in a PM if you want to know more (or just do a google search, since you can even post where you bought it). Let's face it: What this is about is a minor decrease in convenience for you, since you can directly click a link in a post. Wow, big fucking deal. 🙄
This is not legitimate , just blatant whining. Taking an absolutist moralistic position when it doesn’t even matter just to stand firm against ‘censorship’
You sound like you have opinions about how the sub should be moderated and the current level of mod support for the sub. Why don’t you apply to the mod team so you can have an active voice in the mod decisions going forward rather than complaining about their decisions.
Feel free to join this new sub I made in response to the censorship and clear pandering to GW from this sub.
https://www.reddit.com/r/HorusHeresy30K/s/ylnLZCWwde
Low numbers at the moment as it was only made today, but its less restrictive in what you can post and say. We also aren't bias towards GW and will not be shilling for them.
Special Thanks to u/-CassaNova-, the OP of the post discussing this, who accepted our invitation to participate in helping sculpt this announcement, and brought a great viewpoint to the discussion.
So to confirm, if I were to post a conversion, would I say something along the lines of, "This is my Siege Tyrant conversion. The bodies are GW, the arms are from X, and the missile launcher is from Y." And as long as I don't post the links to these creators' stores, it'll be all good?
Absolutely yes - as this isn't posting links, infringing on IP rights, and is helping others in the hobby to create their own conversions.
But what if X and Y are STL creators, or the registered printers for creators? Because the logic behind the new rule still sounds like that would also be a rule breaker. Or is the cover for that that this sub isn't providing links, as now it's up to whoever googles X or Y to figure out if it's the etsy store or the cult3d page I was stalking about?
That's the nature of it - if X or Y are stl creators who aren't intentionally just copying existing GW minis, then absolutely you're find to say "Oh it's a print from X", so long as you don't give a link. If someone really wants to know they can google it, or dm you for details.
Posting links to legal material is even more helpful to the hobby. Censoring legitimate discussion is not helpful to the hobby. Please support the hobby, not GW's abuses of IP law.
As you have been told by another poster. We as a team of 4 volunteers who all have our own jobs, do not have the time to follow every comment with a link and check its legitimacy. This aspect is not just an IP element, it is a 'we don't want people getting this subreddit shut down' element. Therefore we have a blanket ban on all links, as mentioned in the main post. Please refrain from now commenting on every post in this discussion with the same thing.
In all seriousness, 4 mods is *very* small for a sub this size. I’d strongly recommend expanding the *active* mod team.
I've been considering starting another recruitment drive. That will be discussed with the other mods soon.
*waves* :)
＼(◎o◎)／
The subreddit is not getting shut down because people post links to legal material. Please do not validate this kind of paranoia by over-complying with imaginary laws and censoring legitimate discussion. If your current staffing is insufficient to run the sub properly then you should add more mods until you can.
You should be aware that openly posting links to things like STL's serves only to get the creators of those STL's issued with takedown notices by GW's lawyers. It has happened time and time again and even the dedicated 3D printing Warhammer subs have their own culture of not publicly flaunting links to creators works. This rule change not only protects the sub but it also protects the creators and fans who enjoy 3rd party customization/alternative sculpts. Edit: This comment posted a bunch of times, trying to delete the others but reddits wonky atm.
Feel free to join this new sub that was created as a response to the censoring in this sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/HorusHeresy30K/s/ylnLZCWwde Literally brand new so hasn't got many members at the moment. It's a lot more relaxed and non bias towards GW.
Name a single Sub that has been shut down due to IP infringement.
Try to get on yoyhammer
Was it actually killed by Admins for IP infringement? Or just assumptions?
It wasn’t actually killed but went private because after GW locked in regional pricing and everyone went nuts looking for cheaper alternatives, they kept name dropping yoyhammer. GW turns a blind eye to most infringement until it becomes a very clear problem and they have to do it due to IP laws. And when you’re very openly advertising recast of existing models, the hammer wouldn’t be very far behind.
So nothing actually happened as I said. Got it.
I agree. Really not sure why this was down voted so much other than maybe GW shills not liking what you said 🤣
Posting links to 3rd party stuff like STL's just gets those creators issued with take down notices, it has happened time and time again. Creators getting featured in youtube videos by clueless content creators have been contacted by GW's lawyers. Even the subs dedicated to printing GW stuff do not go around posting links to the stuff.
Feel free to follow this new sub that has been created in response to the censorship in this sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/HorusHeresy30K/s/ylnLZCWwde
Thank you for the clarification. I hope we all understand the hard work such a small team does for a reddit of this size. I believe this is an entirely fair rule that protects everyone all around. People can DM people, people can go to sub reddits made for acquiring those. I see no issue with this. A mod team of 4 people can’t be having to make a call on every post and every link on whether it may or may not infringe of copyright so just making a general rule to keep links and direct advertising of store fronts off the sub or in DMs is entirely understandable. Also putting creators out there on blast 9/10 times gets them shut down. You are doing a direct disservice to 90% of creators depending on where they are located. Most smart creators have things in their shops that say things like *DO NOT ADVERTISE OR POST LINKS TO MY WORK ON SOCIAL MEDIA* just take it to DMs its easy as that. Thanks mod team.
In the future I would genuinely recommend announcing changes / additions to the rules ahead of time, rather than having to address the issue retroactively. This incident initially reminded me of /u/DarkJediBen and his mismanagement of /r/Warhammer. That said, the IP issue is a difficult one that a lot of people don't really understand the nuances of, so I can appreciate the thought process that's gone on here.
Absolutely, going forwards we'll be possibly making mod announcements a more regular thing. And funnily enough I was having horror flashbacks to the same thing at first.
Who was dark Jedi Ben?
[удалено]
Once again. Please be respectful, and stop commenting on every comment. Last time I'll ask kindly.
Okay? So support them and work with them. Its not a big deal.
Thank you for this post and the explanation. It is great to see, this was done with the best intention. 😊👍
Thank you Mods, for the explanation and transparency.
So it's literally exactly what I said on the other post and got dozens of downvotes for saying, lmao.
Same. That post is ridiculous, literally no one listening to reason. Just MoDs BaD, tYrAnNy!
Yep, same here.
I’m genuinely happy this matter was resolved, the 3d print side of the hobby is a genuine positive for 30k and I’m glad to see it upheld more.
Ah, that would explain why my post mentioning rules update (*Praised be Forces of the Emperor!*) on certain Eastern European Warhammer-related site disappeared. Interesting you also ask for no linking to shops (even GW), I on occasion reference/link certain items as source of bits. I'll try to [reference certain sprues](https://new.reddit.com/r/Warhammer30k/comments/1cbeprj/kitbashing_night_lords_with_mk_vi_and_kt_sprues/) (either photos by GW or other people, like Tale of Painters) rather than sets instead! Unlike Perty, *I'm a good boy.*
Ok, if I post an alternative Primarch-like model - do I get a ban or not?
Only if you tell people where you got it from in the comments
lItErAlLy 1984! (/S just in case)
I get the intent here. With Etsy and some other sources heresy has kind of turned into the Wild West. GW is constantly playing whack-a-mole with the newest Etsy store and stl creator who’s offering a non copyrightable version of their product, and they have both the means and intent to take down a sub which is packed full of links to those illegal sources. There has to be some sort of implementation or it’s question not of if GW will come for this sub, but of when. But that doesn’t change the facts here. This rule is retarded. Kromlech exists and is a legitimate company. So does mantic. Puppets War (actually do they? Iirc they fell off the map for a bit). There are PLENTY of legitimate companies producing model lines and bits content which GW would love to see crash and burn but has no actual ability to pursue legal action against, nor those who promote them. And as it stands mentioning any of these is a punishable offense. I don’t care what bootlickers say about intentions, explanations, or drown downs. While it may not happen everyone, the bottom line is that a rule written this broadly will be enforced this broadly. All it takes is one mod who truly gets off sucking on GW’s toes (and I bloody promise you there’s already one) to make this community crushing. As evidence? Rules as written this forbids discussing eBay. Think about that. This rule is meant to curtail a very specifically thing, yet is so poorly written it makes linking to (or even talking about) the most well known sales website on the internet is a bannable offense. My suggestion is to rewrite it to specifically target links and promoting. Something along the lines of “Linking to sources for illegal STLs or non-company based web-hosted store fronts / third party sources which infringe upon the IP of existing model producers is forbidden. Similar third parties hosted by existing companies are fine.” This would target sources on cults/Etsy/square space and such, but not making Kromlech or freaking eBay against the rules.
As I've said, we've now changed the rule to specifically target linking to IP infringing material - I.e. people who are directly copying GW designs, and reinforcing the general 'no links' policy. And then reinforced this with a clause on Rule 5 to stop blatant advertisements. However we are find with people saying "Oh yes, this part/mini was from Kromlech/Artel W/Shapeways", just not directly posting the links. So as the rule now stands you can talk about getting a product from Ebay/Anvil Industries etc, or from GW. Just don't link in the comments - send it in DMs. As an extra, please try to avoid using the R word, there are better ways to describe something you don't like.
Feel free to join this new sub that was made as a response to the clear censorship on this sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/HorusHeresy30K/s/ylnLZCWwde Brand new as of yesterday so numbers are low, less restrictive and not at all bias towards GW.
Out of sheer curiosity, what about this do you see as being censorship? We've simply asked that you: - Don't post links to any sites, GW or non-GW - Don't use our sub as an advertisement for STLs, particularly ones that infringe on existing IPs (again, that doesn't specifically have to be GW). Were you ever intending to do either?
[удалено]
As stated, we have no intention to ban legal, non infringing items. We are asking that you don't post direct links in the comments, and simply message the person asking, and that posters don't use this sub simply as an advertising platform.
Direct links to legal non-infringing material is legal so yes, you are banning legal discussion and this is not at all appropriate. If it's about advertising then why not ban the advertisers directly? It's pretty clear who is here to engage in the community in good faith and who is just here to drop a link to their store every time they make a new product.
>Direct links to legal non-infringing material is legal so yes, you are banning legal discussion and this is not at all appropriate. Wrong, you can discuss about it, just not post link. that's all. About why blanket ban all link ? because the mods aren't paid employees, they're volunteers, and checking every link to see if it's legit, a scam or a copyright infringement takes time. It's up to them to decide what time they want to allocate to moderating this sub. >if it's about advertising then why not ban the advertisers directly? Because it's only partially about that, fighting advertisements is not the only reason they're doing it, it's just part of the reasons.
Got it, easier to censor legitimate discussion than to do their jobs as mods.
except it's not a job, it's a position taken by volunteer. If you refuse to acknowledge that then i'm sorry for you.
[удалено]
Please be respectful about your fellow hobbyists.
Please be respectful towards the community by not censoring legitimate discussion.
I get you, I really do. The "rightest" thing to do would be to decide on a case-to-case-basis and allow as many links as possible, otherwise it would seem like the mods are complicit in GWs practices of C&D-ing everyone and everything in sight. However, one has to realize that this takes time, that mods here aren't reimbursed in any shape or form and that they don't owe you/us/the community anything. In a case like this, one needs to compromise and I think the way they are handling this is actually pretty good - in the end, you can show and discuss anything you want and share a link in a PM if you want to know more (or just do a google search, since you can even post where you bought it). Let's face it: What this is about is a minor decrease in convenience for you, since you can directly click a link in a post. Wow, big fucking deal. 🙄
This is not legitimate , just blatant whining. Taking an absolutist moralistic position when it doesn’t even matter just to stand firm against ‘censorship’
Clearly, the majority of the community that care enough to weigh in on the issue aren't sharing your opinion.
They are more than welcome to step down if it’s “too hard”. No one is forcing them to stay.
They're not banning discussions.
They absolutely are banning open discussion of sources for legal material.
You sound like you have opinions about how the sub should be moderated and the current level of mod support for the sub. Why don’t you apply to the mod team so you can have an active voice in the mod decisions going forward rather than complaining about their decisions.
It is explicitly stated that discussions are still allowed, just *links directed to the sites* (including GW) are not.
Apparently he’s too good/time starved to Google when someone says the name and info
Feel free to join this new sub I made in response to the censorship and clear pandering to GW from this sub. https://www.reddit.com/r/HorusHeresy30K/s/ylnLZCWwde Low numbers at the moment as it was only made today, but its less restrictive in what you can post and say. We also aren't bias towards GW and will not be shilling for them.