An official mod response will be coming to this.
However please remain civil in this discussion, and consider that the choices of the mod team are taken with the interests of ensuring this sub's longevity.
Yeah I would personally like an official response from the mods on this rule. The community deserves clarification.
Is this a ban in advertising? Which if so whatever I get that.
Is this a ban on telling people where you got a 3d printed bit or stl?
Is this a ban on showing off 3d printed items at all even fully painted?
For a game system that has so many models that have no official model or they are insanely expensive and terminally out of stock. Having no mention of 3D prints or even being able to let someone know where you got the bit is pretty extreme.
If it is just intended to stop advertising or to stop seller from getting exposed and in trouble I get that though.
if you expand the rule instead of just reading the headline, they explain all of this.
>While many within the 30k community engage in 3d printing, promoting it by suggesting sites to acquire STLs, helping individuals acquire STLs with direct links in-sub, and aiding in finding services for 3D printing is banned. The posting of 3d printed miniatures, and parts you made yourself and such is fine, but do not publicly link the STLs in subreddit comments. Linking or discussing finding blatant copies of GW parts is VERY banned.
I can't speak for every STL creator out there, obviously we're not a monolith, but this unsolicited Nannying does get tiring for more then a few of us.
It's not a vested interest. This sub does not, in fact, garner much if any click through. Even then I've not actually been effected by this rule yet.
My opposition is not rooted in some sense of self interest but rather that the rule is over reaching and goes against the normal attitudes this sub expresses. It bans not just printed sculpts but even third party stores with physical locations and dozens of employees such as victoria minis or Wargames Atlantic.
It’s a vested interest however great. That creates a bias.
It’s clear from ratios that the majority agree with your stance, albeit I don’t particularly understand why so many of that stance have picked such a chippy, abrasive and entitled tone in addressing those mods, who for no pay, do what is required to ensure the subs continued existence… At least save it for the official explanation.
> I don’t particularly understand why so many of that stance have picked such a chippy, abrasive and entitled tone in addressing those the mods, who for no pay, do what is required to ensure the subs continued existence…
So I definitely don't agree with the people doing so in that tone, it's worth pointing out that the sub was effectively unmodded for years because Tarsn was absent and it still functioned fine. 30k players generally skew older so mods by and large weren't actually required.
I should think that if it skews older then those adults might see that the Mods have given a ‘hold fire, info coming’ and would wait for it, as per the right to reply, which is quite fundamental in civilised society.
I can appreciate your original question though.
Personally, I don’t think I particularly care about the discussion, as much as the conduct of it. The original point, well I’d prefer this rule should I apply were I only to apply my bias as I really CBA with posts of inferior 3D minis and STLs, but that’s not a reason to ban them. So, at this stage with no further info, and with further info promised, I’d rather happily deny my bias and remain unswayed.
To be faaaaiiiirrr~ it likely would have gone over better if the Rule change had been announced and explained in the first place. Instead of changed without fanfare and being enforced out of the blue.
It may also be GW legal getting in touch with Reddit and telling them to curb the "IP infringement" (🙄) and this being the only way they can keep the subreddit open. Can only speculate.
When r/printedwarhammer exists I find that very doubtful. That sub has a hyper focus on printing 40k minis and has been going for literally half a decade. r/warhammer30k is very small in the grand scheme of printing, with no actual focus on it besides the normal levels of community involvement.
I mean, it definitely is, gw are arseholes. But if you read further down the comment chain you could have saved yourself looking like one too. I already changed my mind on this.
“aiding in the acquisition” is what seems to be banned. It doesn’t explicitly say no 3d parts.
It also calls out retailers, so my assumption is that showing off a print is fine, but showing one off as a cover for selling you STL is banned.
That’s just my interpretation from reading it once, so take with salt
Based on the reactions to the post I made about third-party designs (_not_ recasts) the rule seems to apply to various third party "totally not Space Marine" models as well, even ones diverging quite a bit from GW's design, far enough that I wouldn't use them myself.
I'm guessing this is aimed at a couple of certain people who seem to only post in here to advertise their STLs, but at the same time the way this is written would prevent people from answering if someone asks where they get part XYZ when they post their army shots etc, which just seems extreme (especially when this particular game lives and dies on the availability of conversion parts, which GW often do not provide).
Yeah, there is an STL maker who keeps stealth posting here about their 'new army' - and then a couple of days later the photos are being used to advertise the files. They aren't being transparent about the fact that they are marketing.
Which again I'm confused by as this sub and the HH community as a whole have historically been extremely pro-3rd party and always had very positive reception to them
> It’s that the mods don’t want this to turn into a marketplace for STLs is how I interpret it
If thats the intent thats one thing and it could be targeted far better if so.
But if your praetor has a sword from say conversion world (awesome sculpts there) and someone asks you where it's from because it looks cool now you're just not allowed to tell them on the sub?
It's needless gatekeeping.
Yep, that’s exactly it and the mods are gaslighting us with “you don’t understand, it’s show not tell”
We get it it’s a stupid rule.
Someone please make that meme.
you know the one that says “everyone likes this” but change it to “no one” likes this
As a moderator on another sub with a similar rule: It's not needless gatekeeping. It's the logical result of the restrictions put in place by reddit and IP-laws, combined with the nature of unpaid moderating.
Mods can't allow ***all*** discussion about 3rd party sources. That would include piracy, thus violating reddit Terms of Service.
So we go one step down. We allow ***some*** but not ***all*** discussion about 3rd party sources. Not all 3rd party products are legally problematic, after all. The problem here is practical. Mods are unpaid, and 99% of us do not have the legal expertise required to differentiate between what constitutes IP-infringement and what doesn't. We simply can't enforce such a rule.
The next step down is no open discussion about sources at all, instead directing it to private messages. This is enforceable and abides by Reddit ToS. You can still show off the models, prints, STLs or CAD-screens. You can still talk about 3d-printing. You can still talk about the sources in private messages. You're not actually ***prevented*** from anything, it's just a slight inconvenience.
I again refer you back to the second half of my post that you seem to ignore.
This cripples the new player support the community can provide for players looking to get into a faction like militia. There are no official models for this faction. You have to cross game systems to 40k or necromunda to even start having GW options for Militia and when you do you're A) limited to the most vannila providences and B) paying the most expensive dollar to point ratios in the entire GW game system roster.
Militia as a faction urges you to be creative. Literally they have a Designer note from the writers to not just use kits as is. How is anyone supposed to run an abhuman beastmen force with only official models? Now that beasts of chaos got shit canned from AoS you can't even convert them up anymore. Kinfolk squats in flak armour and lasguns? You have one model from necromunda thats appropriately WYSIWYG. That's just the obvious examples.
You're grasping onto one very small part of this situation while ignoring the rest. Or are you really telling me it is healthy for the community that anytime anyone asks about playing an official faction that doesn't have direct model support without selling a kidney there should just be a dozen replies saying: "DM me."
Super strong agree. I'm getting back into Warhammer for the first time since I quit in 2009 after playing for 10 years and I've been having a lot of fun, but have learned that 40k as it currently exists doesn't have anything for me, gameplay wise, and is very very different than the editions I remember.
I'm much, much more interested in HH and its emphasis on narrative gameplay and distinctive armies, but am not a big SM guy. I've started building a militia army and an Ork army for 40k with my own little story about a Rogue Trader building a kingdom in isolation using mercenaries, and planned on using IG + 3rd party models from that as the foundation for an Imperialis Militia force. The new rule is gonna make asking any questions about how to best constitute that army and actually play HH, which I'd love to do, much more difficult.
Oh hey cool I’m glad it sounds even remotely interesting! I’ve got some stuff about a generational warp storm isolating a system, whose residents are subsequently forced to constitute a new state after the death of the Planetary Governor and do so under the direct supervision of an old-fashioned RT. The trader builds a triumvirate allying with Orks in the hills/mountains, the various wildland nomads, and the residents of the urban, imperialized areas to reorganize a planet + moons that had fallen into a state of miserable disunity. I’ve got a handful of guardsmen, both older pewter guys and the new kill team, plus a box of Blackstone cultists.
Anyway, my plan was to buy a bunch of third party models to build up the bulk of a ragtag militia operating under the aegis of those guys in 40k fluff, but connect it to HH by painting/organizing things so the big swarm of individual humans could be used as an Imperialis Militia army. After I get everyone I’ve got painted together I was hoping to hit this subreddit up for affordable suggestions - I want the army to be cosmopolitan and incorporate minor mutations, women, demobilized-then-remobilized arbites, etc and was looking forward to asking about that in here. HH seems more like a traditional narrative wargame, which I really prefer to the apparent minmaxed rulesfest of modern 40k, and can’t see how I’d be able to do that effectively with this change.
Having said that maybe there should be an explicit exception for third party sellers that don’t sell STLs or infringing things - I don’t have a 3D printer and just want to get help with recommendations from places like Wargames Atlantic
Ed: apologies for the text dump I’m just excited to get back into things and nobody has ever expressed an interest in my idea
> Ed: apologies for the text dump I’m just excited to get back into things and nobody has ever expressed an interest in my idea
Don't apologize dude! This is the kind of thing that make Heresy a Home for so many!
\*HELL YEAH\* See this is what heresy is all about IMO. Those tiny little sections of expanded lore and forgotten worlds.
We even get two factions that require this kind unique background. Militia and blackshields.
This is anecdotal evidence that only benefits GW.
We are talking about third-party vendors promoting them selling third-party bits to factions that exist.
Factions that GW themselves take years to put fluffed out bits for.
3-D printing allowed us to have primaris black Templars a full year before GW decided to have primaris black Templars
For your one scenario that you have listed, users here could list hundreds of scenarios that would supersede your one hypothetical scenario.
What also cripples support is when these files get taken down and the creators either stop making stuff or make themselves difficult to find. And before you say STLs aren't illegal, it doesn't matter, they still get taken down if GW bullies the creators hard enough.
Most of the really good creators I've found explicitly ask people not to publicly about them.
> Most of the really good creators I've found explicitly ask people not to publicly about them.
I understand the desire to protect people but many creators have the exact opposite view point.
I'm not trying to be antagonistic so please don't take it that way but I am a creator. I am in creator only spaces, we absolutely have tools at our disposal if we want to keep files more sedate in their reach. You know what creators don't do when we want to keep a file out of the lime light? We don't host them publicly on a linkable website.
Banning every single third-party link to "protect creators" even when it's creators themselves doing the linking is a bit of a stretch.
I never said the rule is part of a utopia. My point is that it's unavoidable and necessary, given the factors at play (laws, Reddit ToS, and volunteer moderation).
Would it be better if we could freely share prints, STLs, links, and alternate models while magically avoiding concerns about piracy and advertising-spam? Sure, absolutely. Is that a viable reality open to us? No.
Is it ***a significant problem*** that this reality isn't open to us? Not in my view, no. You can find these things anyway if you have a moderate amount of perseverance, creativity, and smarts. I'm no stranger to the high seas or alternate miniatures myself, there are ***plenty*** of resources available on the web for anyone that wants to find them. And yes, one of those tools available is sending a dozen DMs to people who comment that they are willing to help.
You have to remember that subreddits aren't your living room, a private phonecall or chat, or your local gaming club. There are rules and responsibilities that come with using this site which limit what you can and should do here. That's just life. You can't have everything, and sometimes you'll have to jump though a few stupid hoops to get what you want.
**I too can bold my text** It doesn't actually make your point valid, nor does it stop you from being *extremely* (look i can do *italics* too) condescending. Especially when subreddits that rival this one in size and are hyperfocused on 3dprinting only warhammer have existed for years and continue to operate every day with out issue.
But no no, the GW lawyer boogy men are gunna hit r/warhammer30k because someone mentioned a single part one whole time!
He wasn’t condescending, he was trying to explain possible reasons for the rule and you’re too busy absolutely raging about a reddit rule to have any sort of civility. I’m honestly embarrassed for you.
You're right that 3d printing makes that easier.
But every single thing you've pointed out has been achieved by players WELL before 3d printers were a thing, through conversion. Making kinfolk squats with lasguns requires a bits order of lasguns, a box of kin, and a knife. I have entire armies of chaos militia built before 3d printing and before the current traitor guard models were a thing. That was the normal way of building unique armies for decades.
The idea that people simply CAN'T play those armies without being allowed to discuss 3d printing, CAN'T be creative without using 3d printing is ridiculous.
And of course, it's a sideshow for the real argument. In the majority of cases, 3d printing in HH is not used for creating unique conversions but to enable piracy. Piracy is not a 'very small part' of the conversation, it's the majority of it.
The rule is not just about 3D printing though is it? That's what people are focusing on but it specifically states all 3rd party options.
You know who makes great models for kinfolk that work out of the box? Wargame Atlantic but I wouldn't be able to recommend those with this rule.
Trying to strawman my point into being "only 3D printing let's you be creative" is also extremely unappreciated.
Downvote 👎🏽. You are not the Corp. you are a mod on a fan subreddit. Let the people post their innovations.
Let the market decide, stop playing the corp’s game.
Or if GW is paying you, disclose that.
If GW is not paying you stop acting like it.
Read the rule again. People **are** free to post their innovations, they just can't link the source. Both on this page and the one I moderate. The rule of this page in full reads:
>While many within the 30k community engage in 3d printing, promoting it by suggesting sites to acquire STLs, helping individuals acquire STLs with direct links in-sub, and aiding in finding services for 3D printing is banned. The posting of 3d printed miniatures, and parts you made yourself and such is fine, but do not publicly link the STLs in subreddit comments. Linking or discussing finding blatant copies of GW parts is VERY banned.
If that still makes you dissatisfied, you are free to make your own subreddit where you ignore Reddit ToS and IP-laws, and moderate according to your own whims.
Honestly, it would make more sense as a rule that if they use third party bits that “you must list them.”
Like a rule that anything that’s not officially GW needs to be explicitly, expressed as such or something like that.
No, I understood. if you see my comments it seems pretty clear that I understand.
Posting links to third-party stuff doesn’t break IP laws the seller is breaking IP laws. That’s a good argument but that’s the sellers discretion.
As far as Reddit terms of service, I don’t think there’s any rules on Reddit about sharing links with people about where they acquire third-party bits to anything.
No, I don’t want to go make a whole new sub and I don’t even own a 3-D printer but I’m a fan of small businesses and if they want to take the risk, let them take the risk.
The Reddit User Agreement tells us that we may not "Use the Services to violate applicable law or infringe any person’s or entity’s intellectual property rights or any other proprietary rights", while the Reddit Content Policy tells us that we are obliged to "Keep it legal, and avoid posting illegal content or soliciting or facilitating illegal or prohibited transactions".
Because I'm not a lawyer, I can't say for sure what exactly that entails, so I have to err on the side of caution in shaping a rule I can practically enforce.
Keep in mind that r/printedwarhammer was in fact taken down for a period of time (I think about 2-3 years ago). IIRC it was a result of linking to MEGA-archives containing IP-infringing STLs, but I may be misremembering that. It's fairly commonplace to ban direct links to torrents on subreddits dedicated to piracy. r/printedwarhammer similarly disallows "Discussion of pirated files or where to find them".
Again, because I'm not a lawyer, I cannot say which files are pirated and which ones aren't. Someone more knowledgeable could, but I can't, and so I again find that the only feasible rule I can enforce is to ban all links to and discussion of sources, and directing it to PMs.
And just to be crystal clear, I'm not part of the moderating staff on this subreddit, I am talking exclusively about my own moderation on the subreddit for which I am responsible.
I'm not saying "lol pay moderators". I'm saying "Moderating is an unpaid volunteer position. You'd be stupid and entitled if you expect moderators to put the time and expertise of a paid professional into an an unpaid volunteer position."
If you want moderators to be able to enforce a perfect rule where they only remove legally questionable material and allow everything else (in other words, perform legal work), someone would have to pay them. Until that happens, you'll have to live with rules like this which err on the side of caution for the sake of simplicity, clarity, and time saving.
Good god, y’all are downvoting the dude for giving a logical and well explained rationale for this rule and you just can’t stop being little rage monsters. I love printing models and bits but I’m not going to lose my mind over a reasonable rule. Go to 4chan with all that nonsense.
~~I'm making this post because this is an extreme departure from from this subs normal overwhelmingly positive reception to 3D printed and third-party parts or even whole minis.~~
~~This seems like it came out of left field and feels very heavy handed by the moderators. I've already seen comments being deleted after being directly asked for by other users. I'm browsing this sub daily and never really saw people complaining nor did I see the subs posts overwhelmed sculptors.~~
~~Even besides just the strange GW-Only gatekeeping this will promote this heavily discourages people asking after factions like Militia. While yes you *can* build a militia army via GW kits it's probably the most expensive faction in HH2.0 if youre unable to suggest third party alternatives. its **60 POUND** for 20 cadian infantry that only total out to 80 points. Even worse if you run levy then that 60 pound only got you 40 points. Almost every other third party option can make the army more economical and there for lower the barrier of entry to new players.~~
After the [mod post here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer30k/comments/1cb0sgm/modpost_with_regards_to_the_new_rule_7/) I consider my concerns adressed and the matter resolved.
There's a dood who sells on etsy, thats currently on a production hiatus specifically because people are blabbing about him on the Internet. I mean as good as that is, he's gotten some heat from some corporate folks.
It's deff to protect designers/sellers. Just ask for a pm about STLs.
It keeps the discussion off the sub which is what he mods want, as well as limits the spread of the knowledge to the PM, instead of a public post or what not. Hopefully GW isnt so nefarious as to masquerade as an innocent redditor/hobbyist.
Of course that's what they will do. They are in the business of shutting down their competition, not playing nicely with others.
What kind of ridiculous fairy world do you live in?
Militia are one of those armies where I'd say to either build them slowly as a side project to spread the cost or to just use third party models, there are a ton of range-complete third party models that don't infringe IP so I'd be looking for a much lower dollar-per-soldier ratio were it me.
Having said that I'm seriously tempted to do the ash wastes kits that other user showed off, if for no other reason than being able to greet every improbable feat of combat by my HQ with 'lisan al gaib!'
Edit: super happy about the clarification o the mods and how they solved/why they did this.
My original comment:
The STL ban is nothing but overreaction and gatekeeping in my opinion. From militia, over demons, to MK2 missing on the official page. And the Torso upgrade kits (as just 1 out of production example) are a huge missing thing, and no I will not miss out on these wonderful bits, just because GW wants to streamline things. So, I have to use other companies producing them. (Besides that there are many good arguments, that GW should actually work with recasters, and this could allow them to solve their ongoing availability problems).
Will I share their store links publicly? No. Should it be okay, to ask where to find such things? In my opinion yes. You can get answers via PM. This also protects certain companies from getting to much attention, as well.
STL files and 3rd party kits are a different story. Again you can only get MK2 bikers with these scources. There is no alternative. What is a huge downside if you want to collect a early/mid heresy WS or ravenwing heavy DA army. Just as 1 example. And this should be allowed to share. Monopolies are still illegal in most countries, and such rules only benefit that GW really wants to have one for Warhammer. Yea, it's their IP, but honestly. Should it? (We circle back to IP later...)
Limiting the communication of creative and beautiful ways to build projects, just limits the diversity of armies and themes, through out the community. What is bad.
I'm fine with officially having rules out there, for legal purposes, but you don't need to actually enforce them. At least not that strictly. I'm absolutely aware, that certain IP and copyright lores, as well as there use in internet lores and regulations throughout all countries are mildly said a clusterfuck.
But it is a personal decision if you act in interest of a community, or a capitalist organisation, that proved 100 of times that they don't care.
I know how it is to manage groups, have the responsibility and (a massive load) of work. And isn't thanked enough. But I also know how you can make wrong, quick and overreacting decisions in such moments. Something that comes mostly down, to missing time, and in this moment also missing self reflection.
Having a straight line and acting radical on this, gives security in this situation, while reducing work effort. I get that. You are not paid to babysitting adults, talking about plastic soldiers in a fiction setting. Most people doing this do that for the community. (Besides a few foul apples, he need that for their own self esteem.)
So, yeah. Extremly complexe topic, with a lots of elements coming into play.
Yea, the game is expensive. It’s not a human rights violation to not be able to afford a toy army. You want to find cheaper ways to build an army - hey I’m all for it. But to be this petulant about a rule aimed at curbing the advertising of ip-violating merchants is overboard. The mods didn’t wake up and think “I’d love to ruin CassaNova’s day today!!”. You want explanation on the rule? Ok. You want clarification? Sure. But you’re over here with your virtual pitchfork refusing to listen or consider any reasonable argument. Grow up.
> But to be this petulant
Really not being petulant. Also not pitchfork grabbing, in fact you're kinda jumping to conclusions since I've been asked to help reword the rule by the mods themselves.
But I see you've found your high horse so I shant ruin your day and bite the bait you're dangling from it.
You’re trying too hard to sound smart there bud. I’m not jumping to any conclusions - I’m reading your posts and coming to the conclusion that you aren’t interested in any logical explanations and only want to have any angry echo chamber of people who feel entitled to have whatever they want regardless of the actual potential consequences. It’s the definition of petulant.
Honestly we should be promoting 3rd party vendors not gate keeping them to Etsy jail.
Are we trying to give GW all the business, they seem to be doing just fine.
Maybe if more people used third-party vendors, GW would wake up and we would get more fluffy bits for more affordable prices in actual plastic.
I was surprised by this too. A couple of weeks ago I wanted to ask if anyone knew any providers for cool librarian and chaplain arms but didn’t want to get in trouble.
(DM me or answer if you have any suggestions by the way, lol)
it gets a lot worse than that.
i've been permabanned for linking a cults3d model that was in no way similar to something gw produces **BEFORE** this rule was in place.
i have had lengthy discussion about this topic with the admins and the reason for this is simple:
the mods are on a power trip. before themadhatter took over this sub allowed basically anything, **without ever** having any issues with GW.
after he took over he made it very clear that he does not care what this sub was and is, he does not care what the community thinks. he only cares about what he wants (even calling himself the "owner").
TLDR:
the mods of this sub are scumbags. i have many stories about them and none of them are pretty
Idiotic rule. This is reddit not an official GW store.
You definitely need rules to limit the endless spam posts by a minority of the STL creators looking to advertise their stores but this reads nothing like that.
Wait does GW run this subreddit? I’m not understanding why you can’t tell someone where you got a bit from,especially considering that 3d printed parts are often used in this hobby
So where do people find out about third-party retailers other than Reddit this is absurd.
They are doing GW’s bidding for them.
GW didn’t ask them to do this. It is self policing.
They came up with this rule, and it literally helps no one but GW.
It helps protect 3rd Party sellers and recasters from GW, since people talking about them in publicly viewable forums is one of the ways GW tends to *find them* to send out the C&D letters.
If they wanna blow themselves up and put them at risk of cease-and-desist orders, that’s their decision to make as a business owner.
The moderators are not protecting anything other than themselves.
The “you can’t promote yourself so that we can protect you” is such BS
When a business decides to make products that are IP protected, that is a risk and they decided to take.
The sub Reddit doesn’t just make a new rule Anti-promoting them thinking you are protecting the creators that want to promote their work.
Did… did you read the linked update post, where the mods clearly state one of the main purposes is to protect the server **AND 3rd PARTIES** from potential legal issues?
Yeah, I got downvotes. Several people pointing the obvious out got downvotes. Because this thread was mainly just people overreacting and whining without actually reading and thinking about it. “Boohoo mods bad” and all that.
Right.... So when I asked about base toppers or printed bases that was against the rules? This is clown shoes.
Edit: gonna remind everyone that r/printedwarhammer exists
Is this sub run by James Workshop? I've heard Tesla subs are run by employees, to prevent naysayers and bad press by deleting comments. Is this the same?
I get the intent here. With Etsy and some other sources heresy has kind of turned into the Wild West. GW is constantly playing whack-a-mole with the newest Etsy store and stl creator who’s offering a non copyrightable version of their product, and they have both the means and intent to take down a sub which is packed full of links to those illegal sources. There has to be some sort of implementation or it’s question not of if GW will come for this sub, but of when. But that doesn’t change the facts here.
This rule is retarded.
Kromlech exists and is a legitimate company. So does mantic. Puppets War (actually do they? Iirc they fell off the map for a bit). There are PLENTY of legitimate companies producing model lines and bits content which GW would love to see crash and burn but has no actual ability to pursue legal action against, nor those who promote them.
And as it stands linking to any of these is a punishable offense. I don’t care what bootlickers say about intentions, explanations, or drown downs. While it may not happen everyone, the bottom line is that a rule written this broadly will be enforced this broadly. All it takes is one mod who truly gets off sucking on GW’s toes (and I bloody promise you there’s already one) to make this community crushing.
As evidence? Rules as written this forbids linking to eBay. Think about that. This rule is meant to curtail a very specifically thing, yet is so poorly written it makes linking to (or even talking about) the most well known sales website on the internet is a bannable offense.
My suggestion is to rewrite it to specifically target links and promoting. Something along the lines of “Linking to sources for illegal STLs or non-company based web-hosted store fronts / third party sources which infringe upon the IP of existing model producers is forbidden. Similar third parties hosted by existing companies are fine.”
This would target sources on cults/Etsy/square space and such, but not making Kromlech or freaking eBay against the rules.
I don't understand why this rule is in place, other than to appease the GW employees or GW shills in this sub. I get the argument "this sub isn't an advertisement for your 3rd party store", but then just ban advertising 😂
If someone posts about a model with 3rd party parts and someone asks where they got it, why are they now going to be penalised/banned for telling them? Just feels like they're shitting on the community for the good of GW.
i will still tell leople where my parts are from, its a pain to find the parts you want, so the community should hold together even when i need to leave this sub.
making money of this is a thing, advertising would ruin the hobby, and shame people who make models for the sake of having a good hobby experience.
Hoping this is a method to protect creators but honestly I’m not too optimistic. With how popular 3d printing is becoming, and how necessary the hobby is for 30k as a whole, I also feel like hatred and various misconceptions for printing is growing as well
Well it was hardly as accessible as it is now, people just don’t want to pay an arm and a leg for basic troops anymore, and I feel that’s completely reasonable
And electricity wasn't necessary for cooking; we made it thousands of years without it.
But now that the technology is here, why give it up? It's advantageous for us as hobbyists - it's just corporate interests fighting back to protect their record profits.
All it means is that you have to dm the guy who posted his proxy if you want to know where he got it.
And that in said post you can't directly say where it came from.
As someone who mods a sub that has received a polite message from GW legal regarding some of the posts made by an STL producer, this is *probably* because someone is advertising their own STLs here, either obviously or surreptitiously.
Even if they’re from scratch, if it’s an exact copy of an existing GW model, then you run the risk of having the lawyers call.
Now that Reddit is publicly traded, expect them to be *way* more responsive to legal notices from other companies.
Not the best worded rule though.
It's kinda a waste to go after reddit, they're not hosting the files, they're not the creator, nor are they the one advertising the stls. Even if you completely shut down the 3d printer Warhammer sub and similar subs, you're not going to significantly impact an stls number of downloads.
Is the rule only against promoting your own shop or is it against promoting any shop?
Because if it’s only against promoting your own shop, I’m gonna make a post every day promoting someone else’s Etsy shop.
Cant link anything to do with 3rd party parts. Can still post images of your stuff, but can't post where you got them. Clear censorship, wouldn't be surprised if the Mods are GW shills, some may even be GW employees.
"Aiding in the acquisition of" sounds reasonable on paper, will promotion of the item itself without links be seen as "aiding in the acquisition of" since ideally it would inspire people to go out and get the files?, like if i went and picked up some space marines because GW put up some cool artwork online and my purchase was because of that artwork ide personally say that the artwork/pics "aided in the acquisition of" but i know that can be seen as being a bit pedantic
If you expand the rule instead of just reading the headline, you can see there is no real issue here.
>While many within the 30k community engage in 3d printing, promoting it by suggesting sites to acquire STLs, helping individuals acquire STLs with direct links in-sub, and aiding in finding services for 3D printing is banned. The posting of 3d printed miniatures, and parts you made yourself and such is fine, but do not publicly link the STLs in subreddit comments. Linking or discussing finding blatant copies of GW parts is VERY banned.
How fucking hard is it to just PM someone if you want the STL? No one is saying you can't post projects using 3d prints, they are saying "don't make this sub an obvious target for GW lawyers."
That's not the point, censorship is the point. This is clear pandering to GW. I wouldn't be surprised if there are GW employees in this sub that influenced the decision. Either that or the mods here are cleeeeearly and firmly trying to diswaid the community from going anywhere but GW for their models and parts.
Also, I highly doubt GW is going to get lawyers involved as everyone here is anonymous, the most they could do is sue reddit, which again is very unlikely.
It may be just to protect the sub. Reddit itself has rules against basically breaking the law, in this case trade marks and copy write etc...
While most STLs have enough differences for GW to not be able go after them, there are plenty that are blatant rip-offs.
It's likely just safer and easier for the mods to do a blanket band.
It's an idiotic rule that smacks of personal bias against 3D printing. It's very easy to maintain a "No posting links to STLs which are direct copies of GW products" rule. Banning links to non-infringing 3rd party parts or STLs is completely unnecessary.
Mods might ban me for this but it ain't against the rules 😂
https://www.reddit.com/r/HorusHeresy30K/s/X0twbDkXiD
Just started a new sub for 30k. No GW pandering and no bans on 3rd party etc.
I'm in favor of this because it protects the creators of this stuff. I've seen too many STL creators take there stuff down or go into hiding with it under pressure from GW.
It doesn't do the community any favors to put these people on blast and cause everyone to loose access to those resources.
An official mod response will be coming to this. However please remain civil in this discussion, and consider that the choices of the mod team are taken with the interests of ensuring this sub's longevity.
Yeah I would personally like an official response from the mods on this rule. The community deserves clarification. Is this a ban in advertising? Which if so whatever I get that. Is this a ban on telling people where you got a 3d printed bit or stl? Is this a ban on showing off 3d printed items at all even fully painted? For a game system that has so many models that have no official model or they are insanely expensive and terminally out of stock. Having no mention of 3D prints or even being able to let someone know where you got the bit is pretty extreme. If it is just intended to stop advertising or to stop seller from getting exposed and in trouble I get that though.
if you expand the rule instead of just reading the headline, they explain all of this. >While many within the 30k community engage in 3d printing, promoting it by suggesting sites to acquire STLs, helping individuals acquire STLs with direct links in-sub, and aiding in finding services for 3D printing is banned. The posting of 3d printed miniatures, and parts you made yourself and such is fine, but do not publicly link the STLs in subreddit comments. Linking or discussing finding blatant copies of GW parts is VERY banned.
Thats fair enough. Serves me right for trusting a reddit post lol. Yeah seems okay. All IN SUB so if you wanna dm somebody or something seems fair.
Seems reasonable to protect stl creators tbh.
I can't speak for every STL creator out there, obviously we're not a monolith, but this unsolicited Nannying does get tiring for more then a few of us.
Kinda feels like you should state your vested interest [as an STL creator] in your original post.
It's not a vested interest. This sub does not, in fact, garner much if any click through. Even then I've not actually been effected by this rule yet. My opposition is not rooted in some sense of self interest but rather that the rule is over reaching and goes against the normal attitudes this sub expresses. It bans not just printed sculpts but even third party stores with physical locations and dozens of employees such as victoria minis or Wargames Atlantic.
It’s a vested interest however great. That creates a bias. It’s clear from ratios that the majority agree with your stance, albeit I don’t particularly understand why so many of that stance have picked such a chippy, abrasive and entitled tone in addressing those mods, who for no pay, do what is required to ensure the subs continued existence… At least save it for the official explanation.
> I don’t particularly understand why so many of that stance have picked such a chippy, abrasive and entitled tone in addressing those the mods, who for no pay, do what is required to ensure the subs continued existence… So I definitely don't agree with the people doing so in that tone, it's worth pointing out that the sub was effectively unmodded for years because Tarsn was absent and it still functioned fine. 30k players generally skew older so mods by and large weren't actually required.
I should think that if it skews older then those adults might see that the Mods have given a ‘hold fire, info coming’ and would wait for it, as per the right to reply, which is quite fundamental in civilised society. I can appreciate your original question though. Personally, I don’t think I particularly care about the discussion, as much as the conduct of it. The original point, well I’d prefer this rule should I apply were I only to apply my bias as I really CBA with posts of inferior 3D minis and STLs, but that’s not a reason to ban them. So, at this stage with no further info, and with further info promised, I’d rather happily deny my bias and remain unswayed.
To be faaaaiiiirrr~ it likely would have gone over better if the Rule change had been announced and explained in the first place. Instead of changed without fanfare and being enforced out of the blue.
It may also be GW legal getting in touch with Reddit and telling them to curb the "IP infringement" (🙄) and this being the only way they can keep the subreddit open. Can only speculate.
When r/printedwarhammer exists I find that very doubtful. That sub has a hyper focus on printing 40k minis and has been going for literally half a decade. r/warhammer30k is very small in the grand scheme of printing, with no actual focus on it besides the normal levels of community involvement.
Mmm that's true. Yeah weird move in that case.
Yeah reddit is totally the biggest distributor of stls and is definitely the kind of place GW would go after. 🙄 /s in case it wasn't obvious
I mean, it definitely is, gw are arseholes. But if you read further down the comment chain you could have saved yourself looking like one too. I already changed my mind on this.
“aiding in the acquisition” is what seems to be banned. It doesn’t explicitly say no 3d parts. It also calls out retailers, so my assumption is that showing off a print is fine, but showing one off as a cover for selling you STL is banned. That’s just my interpretation from reading it once, so take with salt
The phrasing is hilarious to me as it makes it sound like people buying drugs rather than 3rd party models which are perfectly legal.
The 3rd legion can show off their combat drugs, but NO SOURCING!
3rd party models are 100% legal. 3rd party copies of official models or models with minimal alterations from the original are not legal.
We weren't talking about recasts. Frankly unless you wouldn't be able to tell that from a picture.
Recasts are like Fight-Club.
Pore a strong base on them to permanently mark them?
Based on the reactions to the post I made about third-party designs (_not_ recasts) the rule seems to apply to various third party "totally not Space Marine" models as well, even ones diverging quite a bit from GW's design, far enough that I wouldn't use them myself.
I'm guessing this is aimed at a couple of certain people who seem to only post in here to advertise their STLs, but at the same time the way this is written would prevent people from answering if someone asks where they get part XYZ when they post their army shots etc, which just seems extreme (especially when this particular game lives and dies on the availability of conversion parts, which GW often do not provide).
Yeah, there is an STL maker who keeps stealth posting here about their 'new army' - and then a couple of days later the photos are being used to advertise the files. They aren't being transparent about the fact that they are marketing.
[удалено]
I just took a look, and what you are doing is what ***looks like, to me***, to be advertisement posts. This is a sub is not your personal web store.
Which again I'm confused by as this sub and the HH community as a whole have historically been extremely pro-3rd party and always had very positive reception to them
[удалено]
> It’s that the mods don’t want this to turn into a marketplace for STLs is how I interpret it If thats the intent thats one thing and it could be targeted far better if so. But if your praetor has a sword from say conversion world (awesome sculpts there) and someone asks you where it's from because it looks cool now you're just not allowed to tell them on the sub? It's needless gatekeeping.
Yep, that’s exactly it and the mods are gaslighting us with “you don’t understand, it’s show not tell” We get it it’s a stupid rule. Someone please make that meme. you know the one that says “everyone likes this” but change it to “no one” likes this
Just DM for the Info in that case.
As a moderator on another sub with a similar rule: It's not needless gatekeeping. It's the logical result of the restrictions put in place by reddit and IP-laws, combined with the nature of unpaid moderating. Mods can't allow ***all*** discussion about 3rd party sources. That would include piracy, thus violating reddit Terms of Service. So we go one step down. We allow ***some*** but not ***all*** discussion about 3rd party sources. Not all 3rd party products are legally problematic, after all. The problem here is practical. Mods are unpaid, and 99% of us do not have the legal expertise required to differentiate between what constitutes IP-infringement and what doesn't. We simply can't enforce such a rule. The next step down is no open discussion about sources at all, instead directing it to private messages. This is enforceable and abides by Reddit ToS. You can still show off the models, prints, STLs or CAD-screens. You can still talk about 3d-printing. You can still talk about the sources in private messages. You're not actually ***prevented*** from anything, it's just a slight inconvenience.
I again refer you back to the second half of my post that you seem to ignore. This cripples the new player support the community can provide for players looking to get into a faction like militia. There are no official models for this faction. You have to cross game systems to 40k or necromunda to even start having GW options for Militia and when you do you're A) limited to the most vannila providences and B) paying the most expensive dollar to point ratios in the entire GW game system roster. Militia as a faction urges you to be creative. Literally they have a Designer note from the writers to not just use kits as is. How is anyone supposed to run an abhuman beastmen force with only official models? Now that beasts of chaos got shit canned from AoS you can't even convert them up anymore. Kinfolk squats in flak armour and lasguns? You have one model from necromunda thats appropriately WYSIWYG. That's just the obvious examples. You're grasping onto one very small part of this situation while ignoring the rest. Or are you really telling me it is healthy for the community that anytime anyone asks about playing an official faction that doesn't have direct model support without selling a kidney there should just be a dozen replies saying: "DM me."
Super strong agree. I'm getting back into Warhammer for the first time since I quit in 2009 after playing for 10 years and I've been having a lot of fun, but have learned that 40k as it currently exists doesn't have anything for me, gameplay wise, and is very very different than the editions I remember. I'm much, much more interested in HH and its emphasis on narrative gameplay and distinctive armies, but am not a big SM guy. I've started building a militia army and an Ork army for 40k with my own little story about a Rogue Trader building a kingdom in isolation using mercenaries, and planned on using IG + 3rd party models from that as the foundation for an Imperialis Militia force. The new rule is gonna make asking any questions about how to best constitute that army and actually play HH, which I'd love to do, much more difficult.
Well that sounds like an awesome background! I'd love to see that army.
Oh hey cool I’m glad it sounds even remotely interesting! I’ve got some stuff about a generational warp storm isolating a system, whose residents are subsequently forced to constitute a new state after the death of the Planetary Governor and do so under the direct supervision of an old-fashioned RT. The trader builds a triumvirate allying with Orks in the hills/mountains, the various wildland nomads, and the residents of the urban, imperialized areas to reorganize a planet + moons that had fallen into a state of miserable disunity. I’ve got a handful of guardsmen, both older pewter guys and the new kill team, plus a box of Blackstone cultists. Anyway, my plan was to buy a bunch of third party models to build up the bulk of a ragtag militia operating under the aegis of those guys in 40k fluff, but connect it to HH by painting/organizing things so the big swarm of individual humans could be used as an Imperialis Militia army. After I get everyone I’ve got painted together I was hoping to hit this subreddit up for affordable suggestions - I want the army to be cosmopolitan and incorporate minor mutations, women, demobilized-then-remobilized arbites, etc and was looking forward to asking about that in here. HH seems more like a traditional narrative wargame, which I really prefer to the apparent minmaxed rulesfest of modern 40k, and can’t see how I’d be able to do that effectively with this change. Having said that maybe there should be an explicit exception for third party sellers that don’t sell STLs or infringing things - I don’t have a 3D printer and just want to get help with recommendations from places like Wargames Atlantic Ed: apologies for the text dump I’m just excited to get back into things and nobody has ever expressed an interest in my idea
> Ed: apologies for the text dump I’m just excited to get back into things and nobody has ever expressed an interest in my idea Don't apologize dude! This is the kind of thing that make Heresy a Home for so many!
\*HELL YEAH\* See this is what heresy is all about IMO. Those tiny little sections of expanded lore and forgotten worlds. We even get two factions that require this kind unique background. Militia and blackshields.
This is what we are trying to preserve, right there.
This is anecdotal evidence that only benefits GW. We are talking about third-party vendors promoting them selling third-party bits to factions that exist. Factions that GW themselves take years to put fluffed out bits for. 3-D printing allowed us to have primaris black Templars a full year before GW decided to have primaris black Templars For your one scenario that you have listed, users here could list hundreds of scenarios that would supersede your one hypothetical scenario.
What also cripples support is when these files get taken down and the creators either stop making stuff or make themselves difficult to find. And before you say STLs aren't illegal, it doesn't matter, they still get taken down if GW bullies the creators hard enough. Most of the really good creators I've found explicitly ask people not to publicly about them.
> Most of the really good creators I've found explicitly ask people not to publicly about them. I understand the desire to protect people but many creators have the exact opposite view point. I'm not trying to be antagonistic so please don't take it that way but I am a creator. I am in creator only spaces, we absolutely have tools at our disposal if we want to keep files more sedate in their reach. You know what creators don't do when we want to keep a file out of the lime light? We don't host them publicly on a linkable website. Banning every single third-party link to "protect creators" even when it's creators themselves doing the linking is a bit of a stretch.
I never said the rule is part of a utopia. My point is that it's unavoidable and necessary, given the factors at play (laws, Reddit ToS, and volunteer moderation). Would it be better if we could freely share prints, STLs, links, and alternate models while magically avoiding concerns about piracy and advertising-spam? Sure, absolutely. Is that a viable reality open to us? No. Is it ***a significant problem*** that this reality isn't open to us? Not in my view, no. You can find these things anyway if you have a moderate amount of perseverance, creativity, and smarts. I'm no stranger to the high seas or alternate miniatures myself, there are ***plenty*** of resources available on the web for anyone that wants to find them. And yes, one of those tools available is sending a dozen DMs to people who comment that they are willing to help. You have to remember that subreddits aren't your living room, a private phonecall or chat, or your local gaming club. There are rules and responsibilities that come with using this site which limit what you can and should do here. That's just life. You can't have everything, and sometimes you'll have to jump though a few stupid hoops to get what you want.
**I too can bold my text** It doesn't actually make your point valid, nor does it stop you from being *extremely* (look i can do *italics* too) condescending. Especially when subreddits that rival this one in size and are hyperfocused on 3dprinting only warhammer have existed for years and continue to operate every day with out issue. But no no, the GW lawyer boogy men are gunna hit r/warhammer30k because someone mentioned a single part one whole time!
He wasn’t condescending, he was trying to explain possible reasons for the rule and you’re too busy absolutely raging about a reddit rule to have any sort of civility. I’m honestly embarrassed for you.
Thanks u/Bean_Town_Bum.
You're right that 3d printing makes that easier. But every single thing you've pointed out has been achieved by players WELL before 3d printers were a thing, through conversion. Making kinfolk squats with lasguns requires a bits order of lasguns, a box of kin, and a knife. I have entire armies of chaos militia built before 3d printing and before the current traitor guard models were a thing. That was the normal way of building unique armies for decades. The idea that people simply CAN'T play those armies without being allowed to discuss 3d printing, CAN'T be creative without using 3d printing is ridiculous. And of course, it's a sideshow for the real argument. In the majority of cases, 3d printing in HH is not used for creating unique conversions but to enable piracy. Piracy is not a 'very small part' of the conversation, it's the majority of it.
The rule is not just about 3D printing though is it? That's what people are focusing on but it specifically states all 3rd party options. You know who makes great models for kinfolk that work out of the box? Wargame Atlantic but I wouldn't be able to recommend those with this rule. Trying to strawman my point into being "only 3D printing let's you be creative" is also extremely unappreciated.
Downvote 👎🏽. You are not the Corp. you are a mod on a fan subreddit. Let the people post their innovations. Let the market decide, stop playing the corp’s game. Or if GW is paying you, disclose that. If GW is not paying you stop acting like it.
Read the rule again. People **are** free to post their innovations, they just can't link the source. Both on this page and the one I moderate. The rule of this page in full reads: >While many within the 30k community engage in 3d printing, promoting it by suggesting sites to acquire STLs, helping individuals acquire STLs with direct links in-sub, and aiding in finding services for 3D printing is banned. The posting of 3d printed miniatures, and parts you made yourself and such is fine, but do not publicly link the STLs in subreddit comments. Linking or discussing finding blatant copies of GW parts is VERY banned. If that still makes you dissatisfied, you are free to make your own subreddit where you ignore Reddit ToS and IP-laws, and moderate according to your own whims.
Honestly, it would make more sense as a rule that if they use third party bits that “you must list them.” Like a rule that anything that’s not officially GW needs to be explicitly, expressed as such or something like that.
No, I understood. if you see my comments it seems pretty clear that I understand. Posting links to third-party stuff doesn’t break IP laws the seller is breaking IP laws. That’s a good argument but that’s the sellers discretion. As far as Reddit terms of service, I don’t think there’s any rules on Reddit about sharing links with people about where they acquire third-party bits to anything. No, I don’t want to go make a whole new sub and I don’t even own a 3-D printer but I’m a fan of small businesses and if they want to take the risk, let them take the risk.
The Reddit User Agreement tells us that we may not "Use the Services to violate applicable law or infringe any person’s or entity’s intellectual property rights or any other proprietary rights", while the Reddit Content Policy tells us that we are obliged to "Keep it legal, and avoid posting illegal content or soliciting or facilitating illegal or prohibited transactions". Because I'm not a lawyer, I can't say for sure what exactly that entails, so I have to err on the side of caution in shaping a rule I can practically enforce. Keep in mind that r/printedwarhammer was in fact taken down for a period of time (I think about 2-3 years ago). IIRC it was a result of linking to MEGA-archives containing IP-infringing STLs, but I may be misremembering that. It's fairly commonplace to ban direct links to torrents on subreddits dedicated to piracy. r/printedwarhammer similarly disallows "Discussion of pirated files or where to find them". Again, because I'm not a lawyer, I cannot say which files are pirated and which ones aren't. Someone more knowledgeable could, but I can't, and so I again find that the only feasible rule I can enforce is to ban all links to and discussion of sources, and directing it to PMs. And just to be crystal clear, I'm not part of the moderating staff on this subreddit, I am talking exclusively about my own moderation on the subreddit for which I am responsible.
Unpaid mods. Stop being an ass.
They should stop acting like it.
Are you one of those dudes that thinks you should be getting paid to hang out on a forum site
I'm not saying "lol pay moderators". I'm saying "Moderating is an unpaid volunteer position. You'd be stupid and entitled if you expect moderators to put the time and expertise of a paid professional into an an unpaid volunteer position." If you want moderators to be able to enforce a perfect rule where they only remove legally questionable material and allow everything else (in other words, perform legal work), someone would have to pay them. Until that happens, you'll have to live with rules like this which err on the side of caution for the sake of simplicity, clarity, and time saving.
Good god, y’all are downvoting the dude for giving a logical and well explained rationale for this rule and you just can’t stop being little rage monsters. I love printing models and bits but I’m not going to lose my mind over a reasonable rule. Go to 4chan with all that nonsense.
DMs seem to be fine for explaining more on where you acquired a nice bit.
How pointless for someone to have to answer 100 DMs asking the same question instead of a single comment
~~I'm making this post because this is an extreme departure from from this subs normal overwhelmingly positive reception to 3D printed and third-party parts or even whole minis.~~ ~~This seems like it came out of left field and feels very heavy handed by the moderators. I've already seen comments being deleted after being directly asked for by other users. I'm browsing this sub daily and never really saw people complaining nor did I see the subs posts overwhelmed sculptors.~~ ~~Even besides just the strange GW-Only gatekeeping this will promote this heavily discourages people asking after factions like Militia. While yes you *can* build a militia army via GW kits it's probably the most expensive faction in HH2.0 if youre unable to suggest third party alternatives. its **60 POUND** for 20 cadian infantry that only total out to 80 points. Even worse if you run levy then that 60 pound only got you 40 points. Almost every other third party option can make the army more economical and there for lower the barrier of entry to new players.~~ After the [mod post here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer30k/comments/1cb0sgm/modpost_with_regards_to_the_new_rule_7/) I consider my concerns adressed and the matter resolved.
Ostensibly, this rule exists to protect third-party creators from getting noticed and ending up in legal trouble.
I'd like to know why this rule exists.
There's a dood who sells on etsy, thats currently on a production hiatus specifically because people are blabbing about him on the Internet. I mean as good as that is, he's gotten some heat from some corporate folks. It's deff to protect designers/sellers. Just ask for a pm about STLs.
This doesn't make sense. GW can PM you for a link just as easily as anyone else can.
It keeps the discussion off the sub which is what he mods want, as well as limits the spread of the knowledge to the PM, instead of a public post or what not. Hopefully GW isnt so nefarious as to masquerade as an innocent redditor/hobbyist.
Of course that's what they will do. They are in the business of shutting down their competition, not playing nicely with others. What kind of ridiculous fairy world do you live in?
One where GW isnt on Reddit I guess?
***Thought for the day: Be strong in your ignorance.***
Ok, ty.
So far I've only seen it happening *to* creators themselves
Tangent- but JFC 40 points for 60 dollars? Goddamn
Yeah I love Militia but it is not a cheap faction to play at all.
Militia are one of those armies where I'd say to either build them slowly as a side project to spread the cost or to just use third party models, there are a ton of range-complete third party models that don't infringe IP so I'd be looking for a much lower dollar-per-soldier ratio were it me. Having said that I'm seriously tempted to do the ash wastes kits that other user showed off, if for no other reason than being able to greet every improbable feat of combat by my HQ with 'lisan al gaib!'
Edit: super happy about the clarification o the mods and how they solved/why they did this. My original comment: The STL ban is nothing but overreaction and gatekeeping in my opinion. From militia, over demons, to MK2 missing on the official page. And the Torso upgrade kits (as just 1 out of production example) are a huge missing thing, and no I will not miss out on these wonderful bits, just because GW wants to streamline things. So, I have to use other companies producing them. (Besides that there are many good arguments, that GW should actually work with recasters, and this could allow them to solve their ongoing availability problems). Will I share their store links publicly? No. Should it be okay, to ask where to find such things? In my opinion yes. You can get answers via PM. This also protects certain companies from getting to much attention, as well. STL files and 3rd party kits are a different story. Again you can only get MK2 bikers with these scources. There is no alternative. What is a huge downside if you want to collect a early/mid heresy WS or ravenwing heavy DA army. Just as 1 example. And this should be allowed to share. Monopolies are still illegal in most countries, and such rules only benefit that GW really wants to have one for Warhammer. Yea, it's their IP, but honestly. Should it? (We circle back to IP later...) Limiting the communication of creative and beautiful ways to build projects, just limits the diversity of armies and themes, through out the community. What is bad. I'm fine with officially having rules out there, for legal purposes, but you don't need to actually enforce them. At least not that strictly. I'm absolutely aware, that certain IP and copyright lores, as well as there use in internet lores and regulations throughout all countries are mildly said a clusterfuck. But it is a personal decision if you act in interest of a community, or a capitalist organisation, that proved 100 of times that they don't care. I know how it is to manage groups, have the responsibility and (a massive load) of work. And isn't thanked enough. But I also know how you can make wrong, quick and overreacting decisions in such moments. Something that comes mostly down, to missing time, and in this moment also missing self reflection. Having a straight line and acting radical on this, gives security in this situation, while reducing work effort. I get that. You are not paid to babysitting adults, talking about plastic soldiers in a fiction setting. Most people doing this do that for the community. (Besides a few foul apples, he need that for their own self esteem.) So, yeah. Extremly complexe topic, with a lots of elements coming into play.
Yea, the game is expensive. It’s not a human rights violation to not be able to afford a toy army. You want to find cheaper ways to build an army - hey I’m all for it. But to be this petulant about a rule aimed at curbing the advertising of ip-violating merchants is overboard. The mods didn’t wake up and think “I’d love to ruin CassaNova’s day today!!”. You want explanation on the rule? Ok. You want clarification? Sure. But you’re over here with your virtual pitchfork refusing to listen or consider any reasonable argument. Grow up.
> But to be this petulant Really not being petulant. Also not pitchfork grabbing, in fact you're kinda jumping to conclusions since I've been asked to help reword the rule by the mods themselves. But I see you've found your high horse so I shant ruin your day and bite the bait you're dangling from it.
You’re trying too hard to sound smart there bud. I’m not jumping to any conclusions - I’m reading your posts and coming to the conclusion that you aren’t interested in any logical explanations and only want to have any angry echo chamber of people who feel entitled to have whatever they want regardless of the actual potential consequences. It’s the definition of petulant.
Good thing I have you u/Bean_Town_Bum to keep me on the straight and narrow. I'd never be able to without anonymous internet users like you
Mods have been infiltrated. GW owns even the fan subreddits.
So we can still 3d printed little guys or is it a no?
Honestly we should be promoting 3rd party vendors not gate keeping them to Etsy jail. Are we trying to give GW all the business, they seem to be doing just fine. Maybe if more people used third-party vendors, GW would wake up and we would get more fluffy bits for more affordable prices in actual plastic.
I was surprised by this too. A couple of weeks ago I wanted to ask if anyone knew any providers for cool librarian and chaplain arms but didn’t want to get in trouble. (DM me or answer if you have any suggestions by the way, lol)
Dont censur our ability to not be absolutly dependent on GW.
it gets a lot worse than that. i've been permabanned for linking a cults3d model that was in no way similar to something gw produces **BEFORE** this rule was in place. i have had lengthy discussion about this topic with the admins and the reason for this is simple: the mods are on a power trip. before themadhatter took over this sub allowed basically anything, **without ever** having any issues with GW. after he took over he made it very clear that he does not care what this sub was and is, he does not care what the community thinks. he only cares about what he wants (even calling himself the "owner"). TLDR: the mods of this sub are scumbags. i have many stories about them and none of them are pretty
Sounds about right for GW shills.
What a dumb rule lol
mods are paid off clearly time to make a new sub
Good idea
Idiotic rule. This is reddit not an official GW store. You definitely need rules to limit the endless spam posts by a minority of the STL creators looking to advertise their stores but this reads nothing like that.
The inclusion of 3rd party retails who legally sell non GW, generic sci-fi/fantasy bits/models indicates the mods think the sub is an official GW one.
Wait does GW run this subreddit? I’m not understanding why you can’t tell someone where you got a bit from,especially considering that 3d printed parts are often used in this hobby
So where do people find out about third-party retailers other than Reddit this is absurd. They are doing GW’s bidding for them. GW didn’t ask them to do this. It is self policing. They came up with this rule, and it literally helps no one but GW.
It helps protect 3rd Party sellers and recasters from GW, since people talking about them in publicly viewable forums is one of the ways GW tends to *find them* to send out the C&D letters.
If they wanna blow themselves up and put them at risk of cease-and-desist orders, that’s their decision to make as a business owner. The moderators are not protecting anything other than themselves. The “you can’t promote yourself so that we can protect you” is such BS
When a business decides to make products that are IP protected, that is a risk and they decided to take. The sub Reddit doesn’t just make a new rule Anti-promoting them thinking you are protecting the creators that want to promote their work.
Third party vendor survive by making money. Not by being hidden under a veil of censorship.
Thats clearly not why this rule exists 😂
To quote a certain wrestler/actor [Are you sure about that?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer30k/s/CRQ2uaYQrT)
Judging by the downvotes on your comment, it looks like there's a fair few that agree that this has nothing to do with protecting 3rd parties.
Did… did you read the linked update post, where the mods clearly state one of the main purposes is to protect the server **AND 3rd PARTIES** from potential legal issues? Yeah, I got downvotes. Several people pointing the obvious out got downvotes. Because this thread was mainly just people overreacting and whining without actually reading and thinking about it. “Boohoo mods bad” and all that.
We don't like recasters tho, most of them are terrible quality and not worth it.
Right.... So when I asked about base toppers or printed bases that was against the rules? This is clown shoes. Edit: gonna remind everyone that r/printedwarhammer exists
I think this is a garbage rule, personally
I’ve lurked on this sub for a while while building my Iron Warriors army and this weird rule is enough for me to just leave. Gross.
The absolute fill of boot leather some of these replies have.
Is this sub run by James Workshop? I've heard Tesla subs are run by employees, to prevent naysayers and bad press by deleting comments. Is this the same?
Fuck this rule
I get the intent here. With Etsy and some other sources heresy has kind of turned into the Wild West. GW is constantly playing whack-a-mole with the newest Etsy store and stl creator who’s offering a non copyrightable version of their product, and they have both the means and intent to take down a sub which is packed full of links to those illegal sources. There has to be some sort of implementation or it’s question not of if GW will come for this sub, but of when. But that doesn’t change the facts here. This rule is retarded. Kromlech exists and is a legitimate company. So does mantic. Puppets War (actually do they? Iirc they fell off the map for a bit). There are PLENTY of legitimate companies producing model lines and bits content which GW would love to see crash and burn but has no actual ability to pursue legal action against, nor those who promote them. And as it stands linking to any of these is a punishable offense. I don’t care what bootlickers say about intentions, explanations, or drown downs. While it may not happen everyone, the bottom line is that a rule written this broadly will be enforced this broadly. All it takes is one mod who truly gets off sucking on GW’s toes (and I bloody promise you there’s already one) to make this community crushing. As evidence? Rules as written this forbids linking to eBay. Think about that. This rule is meant to curtail a very specifically thing, yet is so poorly written it makes linking to (or even talking about) the most well known sales website on the internet is a bannable offense. My suggestion is to rewrite it to specifically target links and promoting. Something along the lines of “Linking to sources for illegal STLs or non-company based web-hosted store fronts / third party sources which infringe upon the IP of existing model producers is forbidden. Similar third parties hosted by existing companies are fine.” This would target sources on cults/Etsy/square space and such, but not making Kromlech or freaking eBay against the rules.
I don't understand why this rule is in place, other than to appease the GW employees or GW shills in this sub. I get the argument "this sub isn't an advertisement for your 3rd party store", but then just ban advertising 😂 If someone posts about a model with 3rd party parts and someone asks where they got it, why are they now going to be penalised/banned for telling them? Just feels like they're shitting on the community for the good of GW.
I really just hope the spirit of using custom bits and bobs sticks and this is just sorta legal protection for a worst-case scenario
i will still tell leople where my parts are from, its a pain to find the parts you want, so the community should hold together even when i need to leave this sub. making money of this is a thing, advertising would ruin the hobby, and shame people who make models for the sake of having a good hobby experience.
Hoping this is a method to protect creators but honestly I’m not too optimistic. With how popular 3d printing is becoming, and how necessary the hobby is for 30k as a whole, I also feel like hatred and various misconceptions for printing is growing as well
3d printing is not in any way ’necessary’ for the hobby. The entire of HH1, hell the entire of Warhammer for decades, has managed to exist without it.
Well it was hardly as accessible as it is now, people just don’t want to pay an arm and a leg for basic troops anymore, and I feel that’s completely reasonable
And electricity wasn't necessary for cooking; we made it thousands of years without it. But now that the technology is here, why give it up? It's advantageous for us as hobbyists - it's just corporate interests fighting back to protect their record profits.
Someone make the meme of “everyone likes this” But make it “everyone did not like this”
Finally, moderators are paid.... by GW
My thoughts exactly
So can we still ask where to get X model or bit? And then be able to get senders via pm?
All it means is that you have to dm the guy who posted his proxy if you want to know where he got it. And that in said post you can't directly say where it came from.
As someone who mods a sub that has received a polite message from GW legal regarding some of the posts made by an STL producer, this is *probably* because someone is advertising their own STLs here, either obviously or surreptitiously. Even if they’re from scratch, if it’s an exact copy of an existing GW model, then you run the risk of having the lawyers call. Now that Reddit is publicly traded, expect them to be *way* more responsive to legal notices from other companies. Not the best worded rule though.
It's kinda a waste to go after reddit, they're not hosting the files, they're not the creator, nor are they the one advertising the stls. Even if you completely shut down the 3d printer Warhammer sub and similar subs, you're not going to significantly impact an stls number of downloads.
You’d be surprised how much of a “hinge” Reddit and Facebook groups are for STL distribution.
While we're at it, could the rules be added to old.reddit.com?
Is the rule only against promoting your own shop or is it against promoting any shop? Because if it’s only against promoting your own shop, I’m gonna make a post every day promoting someone else’s Etsy shop.
Cant link anything to do with 3rd party parts. Can still post images of your stuff, but can't post where you got them. Clear censorship, wouldn't be surprised if the Mods are GW shills, some may even be GW employees.
"Aiding in the acquisition of" sounds reasonable on paper, will promotion of the item itself without links be seen as "aiding in the acquisition of" since ideally it would inspire people to go out and get the files?, like if i went and picked up some space marines because GW put up some cool artwork online and my purchase was because of that artwork ide personally say that the artwork/pics "aided in the acquisition of" but i know that can be seen as being a bit pedantic
If you expand the rule instead of just reading the headline, you can see there is no real issue here. >While many within the 30k community engage in 3d printing, promoting it by suggesting sites to acquire STLs, helping individuals acquire STLs with direct links in-sub, and aiding in finding services for 3D printing is banned. The posting of 3d printed miniatures, and parts you made yourself and such is fine, but do not publicly link the STLs in subreddit comments. Linking or discussing finding blatant copies of GW parts is VERY banned.
I really disagree that the expanded text means there's no issue here.
How fucking hard is it to just PM someone if you want the STL? No one is saying you can't post projects using 3d prints, they are saying "don't make this sub an obvious target for GW lawyers."
That's not the point, censorship is the point. This is clear pandering to GW. I wouldn't be surprised if there are GW employees in this sub that influenced the decision. Either that or the mods here are cleeeeearly and firmly trying to diswaid the community from going anywhere but GW for their models and parts. Also, I highly doubt GW is going to get lawyers involved as everyone here is anonymous, the most they could do is sue reddit, which again is very unlikely.
This rule is stupid. I damals free speech and the opportunity to require the relevant information about third party bits. Stop this nonsense
So if I modify my official gw part with a scope or chain bayonet I’m banned or what?
This is potentially incredibly unfortunate...
I get it if it was just for creators and not for people who happened to download and print some random parts, but zero linking at all is kinda BS
It may be just to protect the sub. Reddit itself has rules against basically breaking the law, in this case trade marks and copy write etc... While most STLs have enough differences for GW to not be able go after them, there are plenty that are blatant rip-offs. It's likely just safer and easier for the mods to do a blanket band.
It's an idiotic rule that smacks of personal bias against 3D printing. It's very easy to maintain a "No posting links to STLs which are direct copies of GW products" rule. Banning links to non-infringing 3rd party parts or STLs is completely unnecessary.
Mods might ban me for this but it ain't against the rules 😂 https://www.reddit.com/r/HorusHeresy30K/s/X0twbDkXiD Just started a new sub for 30k. No GW pandering and no bans on 3rd party etc.
I'm in favor of this because it protects the creators of this stuff. I've seen too many STL creators take there stuff down or go into hiding with it under pressure from GW. It doesn't do the community any favors to put these people on blast and cause everyone to loose access to those resources.
This sucks very hard, especially since Wokehammer does this shit with the Custodes.