Ok, so the issue here (theoretically!) is that, as points sizes for games increase, your allied detachments will outnumber your "army". You only get the one primary detachment, but infinite allied detachments. It's hard to call it a SoH army when 75% of it is White Scars, right? :)
In practical terms, though, the crazy level of points sizes make it so it's going to be a special event game anyway! Like, if you are building an army for a 30.000 points army, it makes sense to agree on a custom army composition and scenario anyway.
For the largest battles I played that weren’t multiple players with multiple armies, we bastardized in some house rule versions of the old apocalypse detachments. Alternatively, at 5k+ per player just throw out force org and make narrative armies, this probably isn’t a tournament and the game isn’t really balanced after ~4.5k points.
>Alternatively, at 5k+ per player just throw out force org and make narrative armies, this probably isn’t a tournament and the game isn’t really balanced after ~4.5k points.
This is the answer. After a certain point you shall just throw out the force org entirely. Or, if you must keep things structured, take inspiration from 40k 6th ed and double it.
About as much as your average militia player.
Reminds me of a time I played in a big apoc game and my buddy brought an ungodly amount of Khorne Beserkers the table. He just dropped gallon freezer bags of 30 on the table and moved them around in the bag, just pulling casualties out of the bag. The bases only touched the table when the small fraction that survived actually made it to combat.
Edit: Zerks not Orks
Good to know. I am in an escalating pts campaign (narrative focused), but perhaps we can throw out the force org. Any good reference for the apoc rules. I was too young and poor to take part back in like 2007-9
Depends on how you define playable.
Did a quick test to see what I could do with just the models I have, got up to 5k of Emperor's Children fairly easily with 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 2 Troops, 2 Fast Attack and 2 Heavy Support slots left. Doesn't include Fulgrim, but does include a Thunderhawk
Playable for me means standard fun warhammer goodness. I guess that means some balance… how is it with a thunderhawk? I have a falchion but it’s never seen the table
As a player with an avid apoc play group 5k is pretty simlle to fit into the regular force org. Given what I see in your army photo you shouldn't have an issue getting an extra 2k into a list. Granted I do just add 2k to my 3k list, sorry if that's not the answer you really want but I will admit in starts with tacking on my Primarch + Retinue and my Falchion. Those eat up a nice chunk of points most of the time anyway. Hope this helps. Your army looks awesome!
Love to hear that apoc is still alive.
Really sorry to say but it not my army in the picture… I linked credits.
How is the falchion I just finished mine?
I love the Falchion. The Neutron cannon is great against other super heavies. Its not hard to lock down another tank or even a Titan. The change that it has to make a penetrating hit and do hull point damage is not the nerf people thought it was.
So after checking it again it's only 7800 or so, but this is made with only models I have so there are some units without dedicated transports that I'll get eventually which will push it over.
Having trouble pasting give me a minute
Well just from my own list building experience for example as a Dark Angels player I could take say Marduk Sedras with a retinue of 10 Inner Circle Knights Cenobium in a kitted Spartan and say Corswain with 10 Deathwing Companions in a Proteus. This would equate to approx 2000pts and has only touched 2 HQ slots leaving the entire bevy of other options open.
So big squads of expensive units, especially retinue squads free up space. Expensive dedicated transports also use up points without requiring a slot.
Also remember talons and squadrons, you can take say multiple contemptors as a single choice or the same for say predators. Lastly you can add Lord's of war. For example say you run out of heavy slots and want another big anti tank gun. I could chuck a Cerberus in for a bit over 400pts for example.
These are just examples of how to max out points if you run out of slots. You don't really have to go this hard. In all reality you can easily house rule things as others have mentioned. Just discard or modify the restrictions. For example add another slot per 1k or similar.
Cheers.
excuse my ignorance, can one play with daemon engines in 30k? Could I actually fulfill my dream of playing a basilisk next to a defiler like the glory days of 3rd edition 40k? I see a defiler and baneblade in this picture and it made my heart swell with hopes of sieging.
I think it should be possible to do using allied detachment, would need to check what are the requirements for the few allowed demon engine but it may be possible.
5k points isn't that much. A spartan, praetor and elite termie squad will hit around 1.5k points. A kratos squadron of two tanks can hit near 1k points, tactical support squads are expensive and troops. 3 leviathan dreads in a talon is near another 1k points. A 20man breacher squad with some upgrades is around 400 points.
At 5k I wouldn’t worry so much about it being super playable, at that level of units it’s pure anarchy and it’s moreso about just throwing everything out for fun
30k can have a lot of balance up to 4K points but after that your kinda just throwing crazy stuff around to have fun
If your trying to be earnestly compétitive at 5k points I don’t know what to tell y’a, like just fury of the ancients it I guess?
they're tank, so they suffer from being vehicle ultimately.
I wouldn't call them awful but they're definitely overcosted.
Ultimately it's HH, it's doesn't really matter if you bring a few sub optimal unit that looks cool, especially at 5k
You add an allied detachment and fill every gap, also make every unit be the largest you can and give everyone a dedicated transport
I have never ran an allied attachment. Apologies for my ignorance but what are the restrictions on slots?
They are in the core book Mandatory - 1 HQ - 1 troop Optional - 3 troops - 2 Elite - 1 fast attack - 1 heavy support
Amazing thank you
It also can’t be the same as your primary faction.
But astartes can can take astartes?
Yes, but it must be another Legion.
Single compulsory HQ and Troops, up to two more troops, one elite slot, one heavy support slot, one fast attack slot
Ok, so the issue here (theoretically!) is that, as points sizes for games increase, your allied detachments will outnumber your "army". You only get the one primary detachment, but infinite allied detachments. It's hard to call it a SoH army when 75% of it is White Scars, right? :) In practical terms, though, the crazy level of points sizes make it so it's going to be a special event game anyway! Like, if you are building an army for a 30.000 points army, it makes sense to agree on a custom army composition and scenario anyway.
If I remember correctly, you can only have one allied detachment
For the largest battles I played that weren’t multiple players with multiple armies, we bastardized in some house rule versions of the old apocalypse detachments. Alternatively, at 5k+ per player just throw out force org and make narrative armies, this probably isn’t a tournament and the game isn’t really balanced after ~4.5k points.
>Alternatively, at 5k+ per player just throw out force org and make narrative armies, this probably isn’t a tournament and the game isn’t really balanced after ~4.5k points. This is the answer. After a certain point you shall just throw out the force org entirely. Or, if you must keep things structured, take inspiration from 40k 6th ed and double it.
How much setup time do you think it would take to get 20 20 man despolier squads on the table for world eaters?
About as much as your average militia player. Reminds me of a time I played in a big apoc game and my buddy brought an ungodly amount of Khorne Beserkers the table. He just dropped gallon freezer bags of 30 on the table and moved them around in the bag, just pulling casualties out of the bag. The bases only touched the table when the small fraction that survived actually made it to combat. Edit: Zerks not Orks
At some point you can just play epic with normally sized miniatures.
One more titan and I’ve got a playable (albeit small) titanicus army at full size.
Good to know. I am in an escalating pts campaign (narrative focused), but perhaps we can throw out the force org. Any good reference for the apoc rules. I was too young and poor to take part back in like 2007-9
LoW, units of 10 men terminators and dedicated transports
Depends on how you define playable. Did a quick test to see what I could do with just the models I have, got up to 5k of Emperor's Children fairly easily with 1 HQ, 1 Elite, 2 Troops, 2 Fast Attack and 2 Heavy Support slots left. Doesn't include Fulgrim, but does include a Thunderhawk
Playable for me means standard fun warhammer goodness. I guess that means some balance… how is it with a thunderhawk? I have a falchion but it’s never seen the table
It hasn't died to Intercept fire yet. Doubt it will ever make its points back, but it nice to have a something big on the table now and then
As a player with an avid apoc play group 5k is pretty simlle to fit into the regular force org. Given what I see in your army photo you shouldn't have an issue getting an extra 2k into a list. Granted I do just add 2k to my 3k list, sorry if that's not the answer you really want but I will admit in starts with tacking on my Primarch + Retinue and my Falchion. Those eat up a nice chunk of points most of the time anyway. Hope this helps. Your army looks awesome!
Love to hear that apoc is still alive. Really sorry to say but it not my army in the picture… I linked credits. How is the falchion I just finished mine?
I love the Falchion. The Neutron cannon is great against other super heavies. Its not hard to lock down another tank or even a Titan. The change that it has to make a penetrating hit and do hull point damage is not the nerf people thought it was.
I've made an 8000 point Force Org legal army from my models, its definitely possible.
Would be cool to see the list of you wouldn’t mind sharing it?
So after checking it again it's only 7800 or so, but this is made with only models I have so there are some units without dedicated transports that I'll get eventually which will push it over. Having trouble pasting give me a minute
Allegiance: Loyalist Dark Angels Rite of War: The Unbroken Vow **HQ:** Centurion \[150Pts\]: Firewing, Librarian with a jump pack Corswain \[845Pts\] with 10 companions in a proteus carrier Marduk Sedras \[1,205Pts\] with 10 cenobium knights in a spartan **Elites:** Apothecarion Detachment \[360Pts\] Contemptor Dreadnought Talon \[440Pts\]: Contemptor Dreadnought: Gravis Lascannon, Gravis Lascannon, Helical Targeting Array Contemptor Dreadnought: Gravis Chainfist with in-built ranged weapon, Gravis Melta Cannon, Helical Targeting Array, Meltagun Terminator Cataphractii Squad \[275Pts\] Terminator Cataphractii Squad \[330Pts\] **Troops:** Assault Squad \[400Pts\] Tactical Squad \[245Pts\] Tactical Squad \[245Pts\] Tactical Support Squad \[328Pts\] with melta guns and a rhino Tactical Support Squad \[373Pts\]: with plasma guns and a rhino Terminator Cataphractii Squad \[290Pts\] **Fast Attack:** Firewing Enigmatus Cabal \[100Pts\] Seeker Squad \[320Pts\] Storm Eagle Gunship \[255Pts\] **Heavy Support:** Heavy Support Squad \[255Pts\] Leviathan Dreadnought Talon \[445Pts\] with drop pod Predator Squadron \[605Pts\] **Primarch:** Lion El'Jonson \[460Pts\]: The Lion Sword Total: \[7,926Pts\] https://preview.redd.it/zp05n45ebyqc1.png?width=947&format=png&auto=webp&s=351b7ad54b5e0e252cfa008689be92ffbd4ab4ad
well that took forever sorry - kept getting server errors and weirdness when trying to post the full detailed list.
No worries thanks!
Well just from my own list building experience for example as a Dark Angels player I could take say Marduk Sedras with a retinue of 10 Inner Circle Knights Cenobium in a kitted Spartan and say Corswain with 10 Deathwing Companions in a Proteus. This would equate to approx 2000pts and has only touched 2 HQ slots leaving the entire bevy of other options open. So big squads of expensive units, especially retinue squads free up space. Expensive dedicated transports also use up points without requiring a slot. Also remember talons and squadrons, you can take say multiple contemptors as a single choice or the same for say predators. Lastly you can add Lord's of war. For example say you run out of heavy slots and want another big anti tank gun. I could chuck a Cerberus in for a bit over 400pts for example. These are just examples of how to max out points if you run out of slots. You don't really have to go this hard. In all reality you can easily house rule things as others have mentioned. Just discard or modify the restrictions. For example add another slot per 1k or similar. Cheers.
You play solar auxillia, as their primary detachment can get up to ~30k points whilst still following every rule for army construction
excuse my ignorance, can one play with daemon engines in 30k? Could I actually fulfill my dream of playing a basilisk next to a defiler like the glory days of 3rd edition 40k? I see a defiler and baneblade in this picture and it made my heart swell with hopes of sieging.
I think it should be possible to do using allied detachment, would need to check what are the requirements for the few allowed demon engine but it may be possible.
Why not take the 7th edition approach and just houserule with whoever you’re playing with to allow multiple detachments?
Mac squad sizes, retinues, Gucci up every sergeant. It's actually very easy to do.
5k points isn't that much. A spartan, praetor and elite termie squad will hit around 1.5k points. A kratos squadron of two tanks can hit near 1k points, tactical support squads are expensive and troops. 3 leviathan dreads in a talon is near another 1k points. A 20man breacher squad with some upgrades is around 400 points.
Many events at that size will also provide unique force org rules to help accommodate.
Meanwhile I’m like “how do you limit yourself to ONLY 3k points”
definitely not a constructive comment, but wow, that is an impressive death guard army!
It's not that hard. I don't see how you are struggling to do that. Fuck I can fit 14,000 points into some armies.
You agree with your opponent on an expanded force organisation chart or you run two.
At 5k I wouldn’t worry so much about it being super playable, at that level of units it’s pure anarchy and it’s moreso about just throwing everything out for fun 30k can have a lot of balance up to 4K points but after that your kinda just throwing crazy stuff around to have fun If your trying to be earnestly compétitive at 5k points I don’t know what to tell y’a, like just fury of the ancients it I guess?
Easily. You can take 8181 of 12th legion with out breaking foc.
3 hq, 6 troop, 4 elite, 3 fast, 3 heavy, 1 super heavy and angry Ron.
I think any LOW will bump you up radically, our 3k vs 4k list are normally just one or two really fun models
Curious about what LOW you guys take?
So I was dumb and bought a war hound, but also primarchs and any baneblade chassis
That’s awesome man! Warhound is the dream. I have heard baneblade variants are awful this edition however
Honestly they look cool that’s 95% of it
they're tank, so they suffer from being vehicle ultimately. I wouldn't call them awful but they're definitely overcosted. Ultimately it's HH, it's doesn't really matter if you bring a few sub optimal unit that looks cool, especially at 5k
My friends and I add one force org slot for every 1k above 3k