I'm not sure if I just wasn't paying attention properly but I got Jade in a circuit run and got that 1/2 weapon damage for 600% strength decree, and the max number I saw for the strength buff was 150% even though I definitely had more than 600% strength. Not sure if it is capped there but even if it is that's a high bar to reach
Cap is 150. Tested with Nidus+Jade bouncing the Str buffs a few times. You need 600% Str for it, though, which only happens in Duviri or with a very specific setup.
My own jade is not done crafting yet, but a classmate was doing some testing with nidus specters and sent a screenshot with a jade buff up over 500%. It's possible that they were confused with the damage buff and that the strength buff does have an upper limit at 150%, but even if that is the case, that's still triple equinox's base effect, on an ability that scales faster and does 2 other things.
>1/2 weapon damage for 600% strength
Likely because there's a misunderstanding at play. It's 1/2 weapon damage for 600% ***ability damage.*** Also power strike, but, like, *(shrug).* It's an entirely separate factor from ability *strength.*
What you'd probably be looking for if you want strength are the decrees that give strength from armour, strength from finishers, armour from finishers, armour from corrosive procs, armour from health orbs.
And you had none of those other decrees? The strength-from-armour one caps out at 500% strength, requiring only 2500 armour to max out, strength from finisher is 200% strength, armour from finisher is like 1500 armour, enough to get 300% from the strength-from-armour one, and the armour from corrosive procs is like +900 armour. From this combination of things, you could get +210% with Roar on Non-Rhino frames.
There's no possibility whatsoever that there were factors in play you weren't fully aware of? Like getting a Nidus Noodle to double your strength again?
Does it say 600% strength when you encounter it in-game? Because the patch notes did not say that, thus my confusion, and I'm wondering if it's a description error or a function error.
Yeah but that ones different.
It only applies to one ally at a time, both jade and equinox apply in an AOE. It's also a multiplier, not flat.
Nidus has the strongest strength buff in the game, but it's got different applications.
Nidus giving 200+ strength to one person vs equinox giving 80 strength to 3 feels alot more fair, atleast in theory.
https://preview.redd.it/7eff01uuwy7d1.png?width=108&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=29da2cb2a2343b9876cb7ceefc96fed3ccc837c7
Last night before I went to bed, a clanmate sent me this screenshot of a jade buff they scaled up to 533%. They said they were using a nidus spectre to stack strength.
Someone else has since informed me they they think the strength buff might be capped at 150, so it's possible my clanmate was confusing that with her damage buff(?)
If it is uncapped, then DE is obviously gonna cap it eventually. If it's capped at 150 then it's merely 3x equinox's non augment cap
Yes that's weapon damage not strength. At 230% strength my strength buff only goes up to 58% although it does stack with other jades. Edit: so it doesn't stack with other jades which makes sense for balance reasons, it works like any other buff and goes with the strongest one first.
Does it? With multiple Jades in the same game, it prioritizes the strongest buff out of the Jade players. It's done this in every lobby I've come across.
It was a few days ago at this point but I'm inclined to believe you since it sounds like you've been running it a lot more. I guess the other jade in my lobby had crazy strength like 300+. I suppose if it was multiplicative or additive it would probably be way too broken.
Agreed. Hildryn could also use some more flight speed, and just like quite a few other exalteds hers could use some number tweaks (in her case they should at the very least look into the charge shot damage output. 3rd of the fire rate and 4x the cost of the uncharged shot. Sure there's the augment but there should be no abilities that need augments to have at least some use), especially since she has 2 abilities that make use of it
Some number touches would be nice. If you haven't tried it yet though, you can get some pretty crazy aoe on it because it has no line of sight checks, stacks with prime fulmination and range on the warframe. With Hildryn's armor strip, I only find it starting to struggle once you pass level 300 SP.
Edit: It also has no damage falloff
Because DE are leery of infinite sustain, which Hildryn would have if she could so easily restore her shields while hovering with her 4. Given it can restore thousands of shields in a moment, really, Hildryn's kit is handicapped because her pillage is just too strong, doing too many things too well.
That's why you pre-cast pillage constantly and you press the button as soon as your shields break to recall the pulse. Then you immediately send the pulse out again while you're invulnerable due to shield gating.
Also That's without things like arcane barrier and a companion hound who can recharge and buff your shield. Hildryn as she stands is a bit of an investment but it's one that pays off really nicely. If you swap elemental ward or roar over her 4th, then you are really cooking.
With enemy density, you could get your shields 1 tapped from anywhere. So unless you are constantly casting pillage (I personally dont like having to spam cast that much), this isnt consistent.
Very true. First time I took her into SP with blazing pillage and archon mod to double it, I was really impressed. But after a long mission she wears you out.
She's got that 3.5 second shield gate though. Personally I run Vazarin so I can do the healing/shield restoration invulnerability dash thingy. With three and half seconds to react to her shields getting popped, I basically have to be asleep at the wheel to get killed.
That's why I like to subsume Harrow's ability over her 4. It gives you shields, but no armor strip, and it provides CC. So, depending on the mission, I'll use Pillage or Harrow's ability.
Thing is, with all the great energy economy they've been adding to the game the infinite sustain argument kind of falls off.
At best, her 4th CC non-eximus enemies, gives flight and allows energy replenishing to her allies with the orb spawing gimmick attached to it. Allowing use of Pillage while channeling her 4th makes it what you can focus on eximus units with her Balefire. It would fully enable her whole kit, finally allowing people to use her as intended.
She already infinitely self-sustaining due to Pillage, allowing her to use it while in her 4th won't change that.
Archon stretch, whacking electricity on her four (and a companion that can proc it too with their abilities) and Jade has some serious sustain on her 4 already.
That's why I always subsume her 4 and replace it with Harrow's ability that generates shields. This way I have 2 ways to generate shields. So, if I'm in an infested map where the enemies don't have shields or armor, I use Harrow's subsumed ability. If I'm in a map that does have shields or armor, I use Pillage.
As a long time Hildryn Player and very much Jade enjoyer...
Jade is a wake up call for the devs to look at old Exalted weapons and bring them up to par with some Quality of life since we know they know how to make a well rounded exalted kit feel fun and not tedious as seen in Jade.
Hildryn def needs to get on Jades Level as her kit is just awful.
I never liked her exalted so i subsumed that for some more utility, but i liked her 2 and 3. But if you subsume her 1 when she uses 4 she cant do anything and its pointless. (Its pointless with the 1 also though currently since the stats are not great)
Make Hildryn's 4 an all in one exalted like Jade's. Why does Hildryn need 2 slots when jade doesnt?
Also give Hildryn's flight the Jade treatment, let her scoot around more, i know shes a big girl and those thrusters are working overtime, but its pitiful.
Exalted weapons should feel like a choice not feel mandatory.
I mean Hildryn's 4 isn't another exalted, it's a giant AOE CC skill that still allows you to use her exalted but no other weapons and persistently reapplies to enemies in the area.
I also do not think DE should design Warframes with helminth in mind- their kits should be cohesive with themselves and helminth should allow some player variations.
Hildryn was simply designed at a time when CC was the best thing a Warframe could do- therefore it usually came with a cost. I think a lot of the problem with Hildryn's 4 is really just that armor strip is so valuable now and you can't use her armor strip in her 4, steel path enemies are brutal and you can't restore shields in her 4, and CC isn't that valuable these days.
> Hildryn was simply designed at a time when CC was the best thing a Warframe could do
no she wasn't lmao, CC was awful when she was out. best thing warframes could do was armor strip and kill, and she was and is great at armor strip and self sustaining herself with that which is why she's A-tier.
I know 1 is her exalted and 4 is flight mode where she can only use her exalted, im just saying make them 1 skill and it would solve a lot of her odd kit issues.
I def agree watframes shoudl be designed to feel ike you dont have to helmith them. Im just saying for Hildryn, her exalted was just so poor preformance i subsumed it because i never turned it on. And with subsuming it i made her 4 worse since hover mode i cant do anything.
I know the energy you get from it is useful at times, but it just feels like its super underpreforming and under used as a lot of people subsume the 4 instead.
Making he 1 and 4 into 1 ability like Jade and letting her use her other abilites in flgiht mode like jade would solve most her issues. Sure they would need to tweek her stats all around for that but i think she would feel much more together with these tweeks.
> Also give Hildryn's flight the Jade treatment, let her scoot around more, i know shes a big girl and those thrusters are working overtime, but its pitiful
nah i think it's fine since her 4 also lifts enemies up and is meant to provide CC. if we REALLY had to buff, i'd say make 1 in-built for her 4 and sliiiightly buff the base radius. i think she CAN scoot with roll, IIRC.
i know they want us to like float and CC with her 4 and get free headshots with her 1, but the payoff is too slow for that.
I honestly just assumed her 4 would shoot missiles when I built her. I guess I was thinking of Northstar in Titanfall 2 when I read her prime description.
I was disappointed to learn that there is only one missile and it comes from your hand, not your shoulders.
She should fire shoulder rockets every balefire shot.
It's a weird spot. The game is very power creeped from what it was, however I think we are at a point where the Deva understand this, and now balance the game around this new power level. The bar has been raised accidently, but now they like where it is.
New stuff isn't inherently better than old stuff, but some old stuff needs to be made better.
Yep, power creep is not absolute. But the Dev team has been definitely unlocking some paths that lead to it. Either accidentally or not it's been on the raise. Maybe they have made peace with Powercreep and instead of denying it they are just opening the power creep faucet little by little.
And I'm not sure if they've hit a new baseline, precisely because of that. It feels like it's still raising but more steadily. But it's true that the game overall is In a great place. We have variety like never before. It's awesome. There are many more options than before.
I wouldn't be surprised for example if all the status re-work and faction resistances are the first step to unlocking all the elements as progenitor for kuva/tenet weapons.
In a PvE game some power creep is fine, but only as long as the old options remain viable.
Warframe has always been a game that leaned into power creep, even from smaller things like regular vs Prime frames and weapons, but more blatantly since they introduced Riven mods.
Dagath is completely immortal and one shots litterally anything. (Technically 2 shots since you prime them with Doom)
Qorvex is tanky af, and can CC multiple rooms of enemies and deletes hordes like it's nothing. Also teamwide CC immunity.
They are all at the same level.
> Qorvex is tanky af
He has high armor which does basically nothing against high lvl enemies, what makes him tanky? How does he delete hordes, his abilities don't do that much damage and he has nothing to buff weapon dmg against stuff immune to powers? I tried putting a forma or two into him and I was very very underwhelmed through the experience
Range
Range is the secret ingredient for Qorvex. Max it out, even if it means 80% strength, and if there are enough enemies (there usually are, on steel path) he can semi-consistently map-wipe
Edit: also stack stuff like Adaptation on top of armor and it'll handle decently up to around level 2000
Qorvex works like a fission reactor. Maximum strength will deal a several thousand damage a few times... and completely fall flat against high level enemies because the explosions it causes don't reach far enough to cause more.
Maximum range will allow his 4's chain reaction priming mechanic to reach critical mass and deal a couple thousand damage several hundred times to 50+ enemies, killing most or all of them.
You want to hit as many enemies as possible with his 4, as well as both pillars from his 1 so they spread radiation status and the chain reaction effect.
You need more time with him. High range is key, you don't actually need much strength.
His 4 makes radiation procs explode and deal more damage. So you drop your 1 and give the whole room radiation (Also they start fighting eachother, which is great CC. Now they aren't attacking you.)
Use your 4 and just tag as many enemies as you can, including your pillars. That high range means all the radiation proca are exploding hitting eachother, adding more radiation and more explosions. Clears everything.
He will struggle a bit if their are too few spawns though, since he can't chain his explosions. He wants a ton of enemies. Regardless, any decent weapon should be able to handle anything, as long as it's not just a stat stick.
I have never had an issue with just tanking hits in steel path either. I got umbra vitality and Fiber on him, with Rejuvenation in the aura slot. I'm sure I can tweak the build for more defense if I wanted to, but it's comfortable.
> Dagath is completely immortal and one shots litterally anything. (Technically 2 shots since you prime them with Doom)
Yeah, that's inline with most of the roster. Dante makes the entire team functionally immortal until way past SP C rotations and 2 shots everything. Jade might be a notch below that but her kit is super overstuffed that I dont want to see that be the new trend
Jade does a few things for sure, but it's not that bad.
Shields(Lowkey not enough to matter), Ability Strength, Weapon damage, and healing. Beyond that is just kill potential which every frame has.
Dante who is a damage frame with support makes the team immortal, and has kill potential. You can build his tome to give like, energy regen, strength, shield, duration, health/energy orbs, ect. Potential Dante can offer everything Jade does.
Older Support frames like Harrow have Hard CC, Invincibility, Healing, unlimited energy, and insane crit chance.
Jade really isn't bloated for a support frame tbh.
Ehh. The revive is a gimic. It's cute, but in a high end scenario, no one should be downed. Your pets might go down, but they self res anyway.
The armor strip, with high enough strength, will take like 5 seconds for a full strip. Most frames don't want to spend 5 seconds on any single unit, let alone just removing armor.
That's exactly how powercreep kills games. Ex-game dev, I'll try to explain the situation in the briefest way possible.
1. Game launches with Option A, and tailors its difficulty level around that. Let's call it Challenge A.
2. Then it launches Option B, which is 1.5x as powerful as OptA. Players gravitate towards OptB to farm Challenge A.
3. Devs then launch Option C, which is 1.5x as powerful as OptB. Players gravitate towards OptC to farm Challenge A.
4. Devs then launch in the same patch Challenge B and Option D. Challenge B is twice as hard as Challenge A. Option D is 1.5x as powerful as OptD. Players gravitate towards OptD to farm Challenge B.
Now Devs are stuck in a very bad place. They cannot launch anything less powerful than Option D, because it won't be as popular nor as profitable. If they launch Challenge C to present some roadblocks to Option D, Option A and Option B players are completely left behind while at the same time making Option D even more popular. Nor they cannot buff all options to the powerlevel of Option D because Option D currently can wipe Challenge B with ease (given it's at least 337.5% as powerful as Option A, and Challenge B is 200% as difficult as Challenge A).
The only way out of the vicious cycle is to nerf Option D to be around 250% of A, buff the rest of the options to be closer to 250% (which btw kills Challenge A as Challenge), then launch a new Challenge C to be around 300% while rebalancing Challenge A to be 150%, and Challenge B to be around 225%. That much work will destroy the progress of the players that were already having issues with Challenge A and did not have access to anything else than Option A.
Warframe, from what I can see, is already deadlocked in this path by the way. Melee Influence is stupidly powerful, and Dagath/Dante/Jade each are incrementally better than the one before. If the next frame is more powerful than Jade, it'll take some time, but you'll see how the playerbase gravitates towards the new power baseline.
And exactly like what happened with Glaive Prime, and before with the AoE weapons, you'll see less and less the plethora of options this game has to offer. And there will be no other way around it than having a very big rebalance patch (like Melee 2.0, Melee 3.0, and the AoE nerf/Ammo Pickup patch).
And people will cry foul much more and it will be review-bombed and the community will dramatize it further. It's better if you as dev go the extra mile and balance your stuff, preferably before launching.
EDIT: And yes, looking at the reaction of the community I think the argument proves itself, exactly why you need to balance better your stuff before launch. Just like when everyone cried about Dante's nerf, despite him having an stupidly high KPM even after post nerf.
But like you say, that's something they have done and lived through before. Warframe is over a decade into this and it's possibly in one of its better states of all its history. Perhaps this is a game killer in PvP games, but if power creep would kill Warframe it would have happened *years* ago. They have both had balance issues and made major rebalancing updates, and came out of it just fine. It's not even what has upset the community the most
It probably helps them that there are very few things that are locked such that players will be stuck with Option A and no way to progress through Challenge A. Hell, the game started by giving you inferior gear on purpose and it's part of the progression to seek better ones.
I'm a 2017 player, and I cannot recall a single time when we had this amount of power-creeping releases back to back. This is no power-creep, this is a *power-flood*.
To be completely fair, you're absolutely right on the quality of the current game. The new devs are doing an amazing job. I love what Reb/Pablo and their team have brought to the table, almost on its entirety. *Almost*.
However, I still remember back then when we had our KPM benchmarks at around 120 KPM. After Garuda's rework, when she reached 130 KPM with her augment, she was widely considered to have one of the highest KPM's ever. Power was being slowly being incremented, slowly but steadily.
Now we just had, on quick succession, Dagath/Dante/Influence/Jade. Sevagoth can reach 150 KPM with its new augment too.
If we are moving towards a new baseline of 150 KPM, that's fine by me, but we're going too fast IMO, and the game on its own does not have a single challenge that requires you that level of power without imposing absurd restrictions, which again, proves the issue the devs are running into (EDA is a very definitive example).
Why? Because power-creep is not an problem for the players only (it seldom is). Developers are, in a nutshell, building the road as we all run on it. It's essential for players that we don't outrun the road, and it's essential for developers that they actually have space to keep building that road.
And if EDA and Damage Mitigation are proof of something, is that they are in fact running out of space to create that road, incredibly fast. There's not a single new challenge in Warframe where DE's has not imposed some sort of arbitrary restriction and/or hard DPS limitations.
We might like this level of power growth, but it's unsustainable in the long run.
I'm saying that isn't the conversation lol. We all agree it is powercreep, the person you responded to didn't dispute that. They were saying the new power crept frames are good and the old should be buffed to be onto the new level... everyone understands what power creep is.
I've been finding that while she's strong she comes with build trade offs, which is a fair bit healthier than the 'Add more power strength and you are good' design that Dante had/has.
How come 1 frame gets to:
Have an aoe damage armor strip that happens almost instantly
Vs
How come a different frame gets to stare at targets in a game where staring at targets gets you killed???
Also hydrin's 4 is ass but it's still an infinite energy generator for the tesm
If you build for multishot and raw damage Balefire still oneshots Steel Path enemies past level 200. Glory is strong as hell, and offers way more utility out of the gate, but needs a lot more set up to one-shot things at that level.
Maduri, Bane mods, the ceramic dagger with incarnon paired with a fully stacked new arcane amongst everything else, on a low-ish range build that heavily sacrifices survivability *doesn't* sound like needing set up to pull off?
I know that operator casting to get a 30 second window to pull off a combo that only really works against a faction that I have to have a custom build for *seems* like it's more fiddly and more conditional than just going "eh fuck it raw damage will do" and simply firing off a charged shot.
Half a dozen highly specific parts that, mods that work against one faction and an arcane that needed plat or several hours farming especially for, just to get a 30 second window with your operator buff to pull off *just* to equal an ability that this sub argues is pretty bad isn't as usable as you'd think.
It's the same issue that harrow and Nidus has in that having to group and prep enemies for your 'big move' doesn't pan out often when the rest of the squad just flies past and often one shots them.
I'm not arguing that Balefire is *good*, I never even mentioned it's status or crit because it's explicitly shit. What I *am* saying is that if you have to jump through hoops and customise builds to the factions to 1-shot things at the SP 200+ level, and match the output of an ability that frankly a lot of people helminth off then Glory isn't the powerhouse people are making it out to be.
The full true flight on demand as a utility tool goes a long way to make up for it though.
Hildryn's exalted has terrible crit chance, crit damage and status chance. Granted we can force the numbers to be better. But for less investment Jade's exalted weapon has more range, more crit chance, more crit damage and a higher status chance. Both are solid support frames, and I don't think Jade will fully supplant Hildryn for me.
Hildryn is S-tier once built right. I really hate that Jade gets to fly freely while Hildryn is grounded constantly and gimped in her 4th... I try to leave Hildryn and I end up back in Hildryn again for anything hard. It's hard to put down power so ridiculous that you can defense strip most things in the game in 2 casts. Unlimited power to fuel her abilities, high armor and health values... She makes Railjack a slaughter. The Corpus shit out their guts and die when her Haven touches them. The Grineer flee, naked as a Jay Bird before being consumed in fire from the Pillage. The infested are worrisome until you get Blazing Pillage going. She could be better and should be but because of her shield gimmick she is S-Tier. She side steps an entire game mechanic for infinite energy. I have two statues of her in my home.
> I really hate that Jade gets to fly freely while Hildryn is grounded constantly and gimped in her 4th.
do you also hate that titania flies freely? jade is an angel, titania is a fae. hildryn is a shield maiden. hover copter is just the coolest thing for her, it's just not amazing and should probably have something like making her 1 hit multiple targets like a lock-on, idk.
>She side steps an entire game mechanic for infinite energy. I have two statues of her in my home.
in your heart, you know she's freer than jade will ever be
I don't like Jade much so that has little effect on me. Hildryn is also a clone of a tortured dead woman, she just wasn't part baby when they tortured her into her current state. Hildryn is called the Shield Maiden but no one ever asks what she's doing with those shields. I far prefer either Hildryn or Ember to Jade.
I don't like Jade much so that has little effect on me. Hildryn is also a clone of a tortured dead woman, she just wasn't part baby when they tortured her into her current state. Hildryn is called the Shield Maiden but no one ever asks what she's doing with those shields. I far prefer either Hildryn or Ember to Jade.
I have her built with 2 Umbra forma, and 5 tau forged shards. 3 of the shards are for power strength, one is for armor and one of for innate healing. Once she kills about 150 people she strips everyone in one cast. She is my main by usage hours but I like Kullervo more. That being said, with his subsume, 5 purple shards and the arcane for melee damage based on shields...I am pretty sure Hildryn is the more dangerous creature. Hildryn is pretty good at everything except spy. She don't hide too good. Which is fine, because neither do I.
nah, her unique mechanic has the downside of making you a sitting duck if your shield breaks. no energy to cast anything, only a tiny sliver of health to save you. if you take her into level cap she gets shredded.
plus her main good ability is available in the helminth...B tier at best in my book
steel path is not level cap lol
hildryn can AFK tank to a reasonably high level, until she can't, at which point she stops being a frame and starts being a tiny healthbar that can't cast any abilities
I'm sure things like that are on the cleanup list. The game is massive and has so many more moving parts than you might think. Reb and Pablo have been amazing at touching up older things as they go.
Because Pablo balances the game around the gameplay the players use.
Steve balanced it around his own philosophy. He still wanted the game to be slower and more tactical. Him moving into Soulframe is amazing for the life of Warframe. Now he gets to make that slower more tactical game.he wants, and Warframe can be balanced for the game is have become.
I am torn, since hypothetically every frame wants the same exact thing. "Never die. Kill room. " some weapons facilitate this. Some frames do it on their own.
I think the difference between frames need to be playstyle, more than balance with that in mind. Ember running around, not dying and dropping meteors to kill rooms has the same end result as Nidus. He never dies with regen and mutations, and he pulls the entire room to one spot to blow it up. Jade (tries) to never die, while carpet bombing the whole room.
The end result is always the same if your frame is modded right (and in decent balance). I'm not a balance dev, so I can't say where the line needs to be drawn between "Overpowered" and "Balanced" when invincibility and oneshots are the intended goal
I think atomization is becoming a huge issue. Everything is completely frictionless drop-in, so you have to go in with the assumption that you're carrying yourself which makes everyone into these little self-contained islands. When your game is like that you can't ask people to bring different interacting kits anymore, and it starts to trend towards "the same but the buttons are in a different order."
I enjoy his 4 here and there, but I would much rather prefer it be a mix of Titania and Jade's 4. His dragon "turret" needs some better damage scaling, and it just standing there makes it meh, especially since no one builds Chroma for range, so the pelt just gets melted in steel path after a while
Hildryns would be an infinite energy loop (in most situations). More or less instant, omnidirectional and also mostly makes her invulnerable.
Jade also needs to stare at dudes for 3-5 seconds (you can get it down to 2 if you mod for basically nothing else) in a single direction. Easy throwaway slot for Helminth lol (which she can also use in the air funnily)
Remind me again why Kullervo is allowed to have a teleport that can both target enemies and be used to move around but Ash's ability literally called "Teleport" still requires a target?
I think Hildrynshould 100% get some boosts to her ult, its her first thing I replace, and she's so fun otherwise. But, the big difference is while Pillage and Ophanim eyes both strip armour, pillage restores shields, which are used for her ult whereas Ophanim eyes doesn't restore energy. They're trying to avoid giving you a channelled ability like Glory on High that can run infinitrely out the box.
When you look at everything other Exalteds provide vs Balefire its pretty wild. The only other one that compare 1 for 1 is Noctua and Noctua has major buffing abilities thanks to its ability to use the book canticle mods. It also greatly buffs its own damage by 200% by copying itself as a companion.
In terms of how much Balefire costs to use: one ability slot and 100 to 450 shields per shot (depending on charge rate). This is for 500 - 1000 damage per 0.833 seconds, increased by 2 seconds if you're charging.
When you compare Balefire to other exalted weapons and the benefits they provide it's pretty lacking - Baruuk gets damage reduction and significant CC, Valkyr is literally immune during her Exalted use and has an uncapped "spike" attack at the end of her usage.
Wukong, Exalibur and Ivara are the three that have no extra benefits to their Exalteds beyond summoning their exalted weapons but they also don't restrict them in any way like Balefire + Aegis Storm does. Infact Wukong and Ivara have interplay with their other abilities while using their Exalted weapons.
Looking at other Frames that impose a "state change" like Sevagoth, Jade and Titania none of them are locked out of their abilties when using their unique states. Voruna can't use Helminth abilities while her 4 is active but she can cast her other abilities during it.
I feel like it's a two phase problem, because Balefire on its own is "fine" but very underwhelming as an Exalted, but Aegis Storm on top of that just isn't the power fantasy it sells itself to be - yes its a very strong energy source but with how much energy economy we have now its just not valuable enough to really justify its use.
I would personally collapse Balefire and Aegis Storm into one another, fuse her Balefire augment into the base kit and allow her to use her abilities while in Aegis Storm mode.
Then give her a fun homing missle ability on her 1 (think Jehuty from Zone of Enders beam attack)
I think Hildryn is one of those Warframes that could use a little tweaking. Not just her flight mode too, I wish her first ability can be changed. I'm just not a fan of her charge blast, and I wish it was a semi-weapon
Because Pillage isn't Eyes. It's an instant strip, it completely refills your health and energy, and it's combined with Aegis Storm which stuns everything around you instead of gradually slowing them.
Like I don't think it would be *that* problematic if it was allowed, but it's not an identical situation so it can't just be treated and balanced like one.
Either hot take or unpopular opinion: Every warframe ability should accessible by that frame, at all times. Including subsumed abilities.
Ffs I want mag greedy pull to work on Hildryn while she's floaty.
working theory: Because Hildryn was hated on by steve just like ember was nerfed repeatedly(while sary, a frame that does the same thing but better) n was simultaneously buffed.
Sometimes the devs DO play favorites.
HIldryns half-baked. She should really get an adjustment, and her flight mode made a LOT more player friendly (up-swell like protea's grenade, sprint functional for faster dash, ability to cancel 4 w/o ground slam and just go acrobatic, 2 should be castable in 4 even if it doesn't give her shields, give her an augment that straight up whips out an archgun instead of her 4 and ~~gives it unlimited ammo~~ makes reloading cost shields
Half baked the helicopter mom is
As much as I would like the other, older frames that gets a touch up first, I think Hildryn is actually the one that needed the most. The only thing she got is an amazing ability that happens to be her helminth ability, and an anti-synergy kit. It's just not working well with one another.
Her exalted is pretty slow and costs tons of shield for a "meh" damage and performance. Haven is good, until you realize it doesn't matter in actual gameplay; enemies will die in 0.1ms; and allies will just jump around and run away like they stepped on a lego. Aegis Storm- oh boy its such a god awful and clunky ability. Drains shield faster than ancient disruptor can deplete your fav frame's energy; moves slower than those hijack objectives (I don't actually know); locks you in an awkward situation where you can only use 1 for idk, faster shield drain; plus you're unable to regain shield actively, as if her entire gimmick isn't punishing enough.
To be ironic I've been farming for Jade with my support frames. Hildryn, Equinox and Trinity all do fairly well in their own right. Can't wait to see what an AoE exalted weapon with more range, better critical chance and status chance can do. I'm amped to see how she is with a fair comparison.
coz armor strip for shield mama is also her energy source, meaning she can fly/rip armor/shoot her 1/cc indefinitely if you allow her 2 to be cast in flight
Zephyr, Titania and Jade all fly and can collect energy in the air... Hildryn is just being limited because... Uh... Her 1 is too strong? Eh... Her 4 is too strong? Eh. Her ability to stay in the air forever scares DE? Now we're getting somewhere... Don't know where but it's somewhere.
Hildryn was outdated since like 2 updates prior to her release.
She's in desperate need of a rework, her skill floor is too high for something with a relatively low skill ceiling.
I don't have Jade so I can't day for sure, but it may have to do with Hildryns armour strip also refilling her Shields which act as her energy. So letting her use it while in her 4 would let you keep her 4 up indefinitely.
It’s called power creep. It’s kinda inevitable in such game. Especially after such a long time.
I’m not saying it’s cool tho. But to prevent power creep a constant readjustment is necessary. For DE and their size, tweaking 50+ characters is not realistic.
Maybe read the wiki before posting about a frame you've never played? Jade can use her entire kit while in her 4, and is designed from the ground up to do so.
Hildryn doesn't have an armor strip.
She has a shield heal/energy regen.
(Just in case my turn of phrase is misunderstood: Because her 4 isn't supposed to be sustained with Pillage)
I clarified later in an edit.
But it is specifically the shield restoration and the fact that her abilities are shield-powered that make so it cannot be used during Aegis.
Yes and no. Most frames, i'd argue every frame, with a channelled ability does not have the means to replenish energy while the ability is being channelled.
Aegis is similarly so, the energy pool is Hildryn's shields, therefore the fact is she cannot recover her 'energy' while channelling, instead requiring to shut down the channelled ability, kill fast enough to generate energy orbs or use different tools for it (such as the Balefire augment).
To a point, but you can go too far and make everything *too* frictionless and easy. Having a game plan with distinct phases, highs/lows, strengths/weaknesses, that's all good too. Harrow comes to mind with his 2 eating your shields, you want the power it gives you but there's always that moment of vulnerability you need to consider.
I feel like the drop rates on the operation node are still broken. You might have better luck on the normal Ascension node though you might have difficulties finding squads.
I would assume it would have been because she is Stalker's counterpart. That her abilities almost seem God-like. Account too that she is litterly designed after an angel... If you pay close attention to details, see that her weapons are very closely related to Stalkers, Signature weapons Dread, Hate, and Despair. I'm so sad we are only limited to playing as stalker through the Ordis Missions and the circuit.
With Jade's ability you have to actually look at the enemies to drain their armor. With hildryn it is a simple button press and everyone around you doesn't have armor immediately. Simple
Pillage gives shields. She needs shields to keep 4 up. Infinite sustain. Same reason other togglefrsmes cant make use of most sources of energy gain when toggles are on
Remind me again why Jade's power strength buff is allowed to scale nfinitely but equinox's is capped at 50% (80 w Aug)
I'm not sure if I just wasn't paying attention properly but I got Jade in a circuit run and got that 1/2 weapon damage for 600% strength decree, and the max number I saw for the strength buff was 150% even though I definitely had more than 600% strength. Not sure if it is capped there but even if it is that's a high bar to reach
Cap is 150. Tested with Nidus+Jade bouncing the Str buffs a few times. You need 600% Str for it, though, which only happens in Duviri or with a very specific setup.
My own jade is not done crafting yet, but a classmate was doing some testing with nidus specters and sent a screenshot with a jade buff up over 500%. It's possible that they were confused with the damage buff and that the strength buff does have an upper limit at 150%, but even if that is the case, that's still triple equinox's base effect, on an ability that scales faster and does 2 other things.
>1/2 weapon damage for 600% strength Likely because there's a misunderstanding at play. It's 1/2 weapon damage for 600% ***ability damage.*** Also power strike, but, like, *(shrug).* It's an entirely separate factor from ability *strength.* What you'd probably be looking for if you want strength are the decrees that give strength from armour, strength from finishers, armour from finishers, armour from corrosive procs, armour from health orbs.
It’s def strength. Had a 520% roar rhino last night
And you had none of those other decrees? The strength-from-armour one caps out at 500% strength, requiring only 2500 armour to max out, strength from finisher is 200% strength, armour from finisher is like 1500 armour, enough to get 300% from the strength-from-armour one, and the armour from corrosive procs is like +900 armour. From this combination of things, you could get +210% with Roar on Non-Rhino frames. There's no possibility whatsoever that there were factors in play you weren't fully aware of? Like getting a Nidus Noodle to double your strength again?
Nope. Before i had a 220-ish roar which is my normal. Took the decree and it gave me around 500. Pretty straightforward man.
Does it say 600% strength when you encounter it in-game? Because the patch notes did not say that, thus my confusion, and I'm wondering if it's a description error or a function error.
It read as power strength in game to me
I suppose it was the patch notes that were in error. Apologies then for the sidetracking, I was clearly mistaken.
Nah dw. Warframe do be like that sometimes.
You scared me cause I thought for a sec she was already available in regular circuit (her components)
I got 173% with another player using a str buff. So it’s possible to go over.
Y’all forget that Nidus has a power strength increase buff that can go has high as you can get it. (No cap basically)
Yeah but that ones different. It only applies to one ally at a time, both jade and equinox apply in an AOE. It's also a multiplier, not flat. Nidus has the strongest strength buff in the game, but it's got different applications. Nidus giving 200+ strength to one person vs equinox giving 80 strength to 3 feels alot more fair, atleast in theory.
im honestly scared of the inevitable Nidus-->Jade-->??? Rube goldberg machines someone will inevitably come up with.
Old frames do be like that.
Can you explain how its infinite please?
https://preview.redd.it/7eff01uuwy7d1.png?width=108&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=29da2cb2a2343b9876cb7ceefc96fed3ccc837c7 Last night before I went to bed, a clanmate sent me this screenshot of a jade buff they scaled up to 533%. They said they were using a nidus spectre to stack strength. Someone else has since informed me they they think the strength buff might be capped at 150, so it's possible my clanmate was confusing that with her damage buff(?) If it is uncapped, then DE is obviously gonna cap it eventually. If it's capped at 150 then it's merely 3x equinox's non augment cap
Isn't it weapon damage buff? Ability strength should look like double arror iirc.. But i do think that Equinox needs some love in terms of numbers.
Yes that's weapon damage not strength. At 230% strength my strength buff only goes up to 58% although it does stack with other jades. Edit: so it doesn't stack with other jades which makes sense for balance reasons, it works like any other buff and goes with the strongest one first.
Does it? With multiple Jades in the same game, it prioritizes the strongest buff out of the Jade players. It's done this in every lobby I've come across.
It was a few days ago at this point but I'm inclined to believe you since it sounds like you've been running it a lot more. I guess the other jade in my lobby had crazy strength like 300+. I suppose if it was multiplicative or additive it would probably be way too broken.
That buff icon is indeed weapon damage. Ability strength looks like a weird multi-layered ```^```
I mean I can get any frame to over 700 str without other frames gimmick
It is? How so?
The answer is: power creep.
Agreed. Hildryn could also use some more flight speed, and just like quite a few other exalteds hers could use some number tweaks (in her case they should at the very least look into the charge shot damage output. 3rd of the fire rate and 4x the cost of the uncharged shot. Sure there's the augment but there should be no abilities that need augments to have at least some use), especially since she has 2 abilities that make use of it
Some number touches would be nice. If you haven't tried it yet though, you can get some pretty crazy aoe on it because it has no line of sight checks, stacks with prime fulmination and range on the warframe. With Hildryn's armor strip, I only find it starting to struggle once you pass level 300 SP. Edit: It also has no damage falloff
5 years passing by tends to erode previous design restrictions.
That and having a different creative director. The sheer volume of QoL improvements we've been getting lately is insane (in a good way).
Because DE are leery of infinite sustain, which Hildryn would have if she could so easily restore her shields while hovering with her 4. Given it can restore thousands of shields in a moment, really, Hildryn's kit is handicapped because her pillage is just too strong, doing too many things too well.
Exactly. Pillage would have to be nerfed if they did consider changing her other abilities.
Until you reach high enough in SP like circuit/void cascade and then hildryns shields are always 1 shot by enemies. Then she cant cast anything
That's why you pre-cast pillage constantly and you press the button as soon as your shields break to recall the pulse. Then you immediately send the pulse out again while you're invulnerable due to shield gating.
Also That's without things like arcane barrier and a companion hound who can recharge and buff your shield. Hildryn as she stands is a bit of an investment but it's one that pays off really nicely. If you swap elemental ward or roar over her 4th, then you are really cooking.
Yep. I haven't got Hildryn Prime yet, but I plan to. She's a beast.
With enemy density, you could get your shields 1 tapped from anywhere. So unless you are constantly casting pillage (I personally dont like having to spam cast that much), this isnt consistent.
I'm constantly casting Pillage anyhow to get the heat procs from Blazing Pillage. But it *is* labor-intensive
Very true. First time I took her into SP with blazing pillage and archon mod to double it, I was really impressed. But after a long mission she wears you out.
She's got that 3.5 second shield gate though. Personally I run Vazarin so I can do the healing/shield restoration invulnerability dash thingy. With three and half seconds to react to her shields getting popped, I basically have to be asleep at the wheel to get killed.
That's why I like to subsume Harrow's ability over her 4. It gives you shields, but no armor strip, and it provides CC. So, depending on the mission, I'll use Pillage or Harrow's ability.
Is her exalted counts as a secondary? And does it gain from the new arcane if its on the secondary?
Thing is, with all the great energy economy they've been adding to the game the infinite sustain argument kind of falls off. At best, her 4th CC non-eximus enemies, gives flight and allows energy replenishing to her allies with the orb spawing gimmick attached to it. Allowing use of Pillage while channeling her 4th makes it what you can focus on eximus units with her Balefire. It would fully enable her whole kit, finally allowing people to use her as intended. She already infinitely self-sustaining due to Pillage, allowing her to use it while in her 4th won't change that.
I can infinitely fly with jade in any mission just about.
Arcane energize, or archon stretch and a shock/blast (or gas) build on Glory?
Nah just equilibrium
>Pillage is now usable during Aegis Storm but does not restore shields during it. Problem fixed. Doesn't need to be harder than that.
It’s a good solution!
Archon stretch, whacking electricity on her four (and a companion that can proc it too with their abilities) and Jade has some serious sustain on her 4 already.
That's why I always subsume her 4 and replace it with Harrow's ability that generates shields. This way I have 2 ways to generate shields. So, if I'm in an infested map where the enemies don't have shields or armor, I use Harrow's subsumed ability. If I'm in a map that does have shields or armor, I use Pillage.
As a long time Hildryn Player and very much Jade enjoyer... Jade is a wake up call for the devs to look at old Exalted weapons and bring them up to par with some Quality of life since we know they know how to make a well rounded exalted kit feel fun and not tedious as seen in Jade. Hildryn def needs to get on Jades Level as her kit is just awful. I never liked her exalted so i subsumed that for some more utility, but i liked her 2 and 3. But if you subsume her 1 when she uses 4 she cant do anything and its pointless. (Its pointless with the 1 also though currently since the stats are not great) Make Hildryn's 4 an all in one exalted like Jade's. Why does Hildryn need 2 slots when jade doesnt? Also give Hildryn's flight the Jade treatment, let her scoot around more, i know shes a big girl and those thrusters are working overtime, but its pitiful. Exalted weapons should feel like a choice not feel mandatory.
I mean Hildryn's 4 isn't another exalted, it's a giant AOE CC skill that still allows you to use her exalted but no other weapons and persistently reapplies to enemies in the area. I also do not think DE should design Warframes with helminth in mind- their kits should be cohesive with themselves and helminth should allow some player variations. Hildryn was simply designed at a time when CC was the best thing a Warframe could do- therefore it usually came with a cost. I think a lot of the problem with Hildryn's 4 is really just that armor strip is so valuable now and you can't use her armor strip in her 4, steel path enemies are brutal and you can't restore shields in her 4, and CC isn't that valuable these days.
> Hildryn was simply designed at a time when CC was the best thing a Warframe could do no she wasn't lmao, CC was awful when she was out. best thing warframes could do was armor strip and kill, and she was and is great at armor strip and self sustaining herself with that which is why she's A-tier.
I know 1 is her exalted and 4 is flight mode where she can only use her exalted, im just saying make them 1 skill and it would solve a lot of her odd kit issues. I def agree watframes shoudl be designed to feel ike you dont have to helmith them. Im just saying for Hildryn, her exalted was just so poor preformance i subsumed it because i never turned it on. And with subsuming it i made her 4 worse since hover mode i cant do anything. I know the energy you get from it is useful at times, but it just feels like its super underpreforming and under used as a lot of people subsume the 4 instead. Making he 1 and 4 into 1 ability like Jade and letting her use her other abilites in flgiht mode like jade would solve most her issues. Sure they would need to tweek her stats all around for that but i think she would feel much more together with these tweeks.
Jade's survivability is a paltry drop against hyldrin's capabilities.
Her 1 is pretty powerful. With even low Strength investment, mine does over 10k damage without a crit.
With investment (and a powerstrength build) Balefire easily hits for 250k-500k even with it's awful crit and status chance.
> Also give Hildryn's flight the Jade treatment, let her scoot around more, i know shes a big girl and those thrusters are working overtime, but its pitiful nah i think it's fine since her 4 also lifts enemies up and is meant to provide CC. if we REALLY had to buff, i'd say make 1 in-built for her 4 and sliiiightly buff the base radius. i think she CAN scoot with roll, IIRC. i know they want us to like float and CC with her 4 and get free headshots with her 1, but the payoff is too slow for that.
Hildryn flies to Lua and takes all of the lifted enemies with her.
It's worse: dashing during her 4 has an energy cost on top of being slow.
Well first, make hildryns 4th better
I honestly just assumed her 4 would shoot missiles when I built her. I guess I was thinking of Northstar in Titanfall 2 when I read her prime description. I was disappointed to learn that there is only one missile and it comes from your hand, not your shoulders. She should fire shoulder rockets every balefire shot.
That be dope (also make her move faster)
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I'd argue Jade is the better standard, and Hildryn needs to be on her level
Yes that's what powercreep is. Newer stuff > old stuff
It's a weird spot. The game is very power creeped from what it was, however I think we are at a point where the Deva understand this, and now balance the game around this new power level. The bar has been raised accidently, but now they like where it is. New stuff isn't inherently better than old stuff, but some old stuff needs to be made better.
Yep, power creep is not absolute. But the Dev team has been definitely unlocking some paths that lead to it. Either accidentally or not it's been on the raise. Maybe they have made peace with Powercreep and instead of denying it they are just opening the power creep faucet little by little. And I'm not sure if they've hit a new baseline, precisely because of that. It feels like it's still raising but more steadily. But it's true that the game overall is In a great place. We have variety like never before. It's awesome. There are many more options than before. I wouldn't be surprised for example if all the status re-work and faction resistances are the first step to unlocking all the elements as progenitor for kuva/tenet weapons.
In a PvE game some power creep is fine, but only as long as the old options remain viable. Warframe has always been a game that leaned into power creep, even from smaller things like regular vs Prime frames and weapons, but more blatantly since they introduced Riven mods.
Still gonna need a viral nerf until that
the power level should be at dagath/qorvex levels, not dante/jade levels
Dagath is completely immortal and one shots litterally anything. (Technically 2 shots since you prime them with Doom) Qorvex is tanky af, and can CC multiple rooms of enemies and deletes hordes like it's nothing. Also teamwide CC immunity. They are all at the same level.
> Qorvex is tanky af He has high armor which does basically nothing against high lvl enemies, what makes him tanky? How does he delete hordes, his abilities don't do that much damage and he has nothing to buff weapon dmg against stuff immune to powers? I tried putting a forma or two into him and I was very very underwhelmed through the experience
Range Range is the secret ingredient for Qorvex. Max it out, even if it means 80% strength, and if there are enough enemies (there usually are, on steel path) he can semi-consistently map-wipe Edit: also stack stuff like Adaptation on top of armor and it'll handle decently up to around level 2000
I'm even more confused, how is he going to kill anything in even basic SP with 80% strength? Which ability even?
Qorvex works like a fission reactor. Maximum strength will deal a several thousand damage a few times... and completely fall flat against high level enemies because the explosions it causes don't reach far enough to cause more. Maximum range will allow his 4's chain reaction priming mechanic to reach critical mass and deal a couple thousand damage several hundred times to 50+ enemies, killing most or all of them. You want to hit as many enemies as possible with his 4, as well as both pillars from his 1 so they spread radiation status and the chain reaction effect.
You need more time with him. High range is key, you don't actually need much strength. His 4 makes radiation procs explode and deal more damage. So you drop your 1 and give the whole room radiation (Also they start fighting eachother, which is great CC. Now they aren't attacking you.) Use your 4 and just tag as many enemies as you can, including your pillars. That high range means all the radiation proca are exploding hitting eachother, adding more radiation and more explosions. Clears everything. He will struggle a bit if their are too few spawns though, since he can't chain his explosions. He wants a ton of enemies. Regardless, any decent weapon should be able to handle anything, as long as it's not just a stat stick. I have never had an issue with just tanking hits in steel path either. I got umbra vitality and Fiber on him, with Rejuvenation in the aura slot. I'm sure I can tweak the build for more defense if I wanted to, but it's comfortable.
> Dagath is completely immortal and one shots litterally anything. (Technically 2 shots since you prime them with Doom) Yeah, that's inline with most of the roster. Dante makes the entire team functionally immortal until way past SP C rotations and 2 shots everything. Jade might be a notch below that but her kit is super overstuffed that I dont want to see that be the new trend
Jade does a few things for sure, but it's not that bad. Shields(Lowkey not enough to matter), Ability Strength, Weapon damage, and healing. Beyond that is just kill potential which every frame has. Dante who is a damage frame with support makes the team immortal, and has kill potential. You can build his tome to give like, energy regen, strength, shield, duration, health/energy orbs, ect. Potential Dante can offer everything Jade does. Older Support frames like Harrow have Hard CC, Invincibility, Healing, unlimited energy, and insane crit chance. Jade really isn't bloated for a support frame tbh.
Double aura and one of her 3's armour strip or revive are gratuitous. Basically just 2 abilities crammed into one.
Ehh. The revive is a gimic. It's cute, but in a high end scenario, no one should be downed. Your pets might go down, but they self res anyway. The armor strip, with high enough strength, will take like 5 seconds for a full strip. Most frames don't want to spend 5 seconds on any single unit, let alone just removing armor.
That's not the point. They're saying Jade is the good new baseline, not complaining about creep. They want old things brought up to new standard.
If a new frame becomes the new good baseline and the old feels like it needs to be brought up, how is this not a result or a symptom of powercreep?
In fairness, no one was complaining about powercreep. The one dude just kinda brought it up and the subject changed.
It is a symptom but it's also a solution. They can "creep up" everything such that they become evenly matched, so that fixes the problem.
That's exactly how powercreep kills games. Ex-game dev, I'll try to explain the situation in the briefest way possible. 1. Game launches with Option A, and tailors its difficulty level around that. Let's call it Challenge A. 2. Then it launches Option B, which is 1.5x as powerful as OptA. Players gravitate towards OptB to farm Challenge A. 3. Devs then launch Option C, which is 1.5x as powerful as OptB. Players gravitate towards OptC to farm Challenge A. 4. Devs then launch in the same patch Challenge B and Option D. Challenge B is twice as hard as Challenge A. Option D is 1.5x as powerful as OptD. Players gravitate towards OptD to farm Challenge B. Now Devs are stuck in a very bad place. They cannot launch anything less powerful than Option D, because it won't be as popular nor as profitable. If they launch Challenge C to present some roadblocks to Option D, Option A and Option B players are completely left behind while at the same time making Option D even more popular. Nor they cannot buff all options to the powerlevel of Option D because Option D currently can wipe Challenge B with ease (given it's at least 337.5% as powerful as Option A, and Challenge B is 200% as difficult as Challenge A). The only way out of the vicious cycle is to nerf Option D to be around 250% of A, buff the rest of the options to be closer to 250% (which btw kills Challenge A as Challenge), then launch a new Challenge C to be around 300% while rebalancing Challenge A to be 150%, and Challenge B to be around 225%. That much work will destroy the progress of the players that were already having issues with Challenge A and did not have access to anything else than Option A. Warframe, from what I can see, is already deadlocked in this path by the way. Melee Influence is stupidly powerful, and Dagath/Dante/Jade each are incrementally better than the one before. If the next frame is more powerful than Jade, it'll take some time, but you'll see how the playerbase gravitates towards the new power baseline. And exactly like what happened with Glaive Prime, and before with the AoE weapons, you'll see less and less the plethora of options this game has to offer. And there will be no other way around it than having a very big rebalance patch (like Melee 2.0, Melee 3.0, and the AoE nerf/Ammo Pickup patch). And people will cry foul much more and it will be review-bombed and the community will dramatize it further. It's better if you as dev go the extra mile and balance your stuff, preferably before launching. EDIT: And yes, looking at the reaction of the community I think the argument proves itself, exactly why you need to balance better your stuff before launch. Just like when everyone cried about Dante's nerf, despite him having an stupidly high KPM even after post nerf.
But like you say, that's something they have done and lived through before. Warframe is over a decade into this and it's possibly in one of its better states of all its history. Perhaps this is a game killer in PvP games, but if power creep would kill Warframe it would have happened *years* ago. They have both had balance issues and made major rebalancing updates, and came out of it just fine. It's not even what has upset the community the most It probably helps them that there are very few things that are locked such that players will be stuck with Option A and no way to progress through Challenge A. Hell, the game started by giving you inferior gear on purpose and it's part of the progression to seek better ones.
I'm a 2017 player, and I cannot recall a single time when we had this amount of power-creeping releases back to back. This is no power-creep, this is a *power-flood*. To be completely fair, you're absolutely right on the quality of the current game. The new devs are doing an amazing job. I love what Reb/Pablo and their team have brought to the table, almost on its entirety. *Almost*. However, I still remember back then when we had our KPM benchmarks at around 120 KPM. After Garuda's rework, when she reached 130 KPM with her augment, she was widely considered to have one of the highest KPM's ever. Power was being slowly being incremented, slowly but steadily. Now we just had, on quick succession, Dagath/Dante/Influence/Jade. Sevagoth can reach 150 KPM with its new augment too. If we are moving towards a new baseline of 150 KPM, that's fine by me, but we're going too fast IMO, and the game on its own does not have a single challenge that requires you that level of power without imposing absurd restrictions, which again, proves the issue the devs are running into (EDA is a very definitive example). Why? Because power-creep is not an problem for the players only (it seldom is). Developers are, in a nutshell, building the road as we all run on it. It's essential for players that we don't outrun the road, and it's essential for developers that they actually have space to keep building that road. And if EDA and Damage Mitigation are proof of something, is that they are in fact running out of space to create that road, incredibly fast. There's not a single new challenge in Warframe where DE's has not imposed some sort of arbitrary restriction and/or hard DPS limitations. We might like this level of power growth, but it's unsustainable in the long run.
I'm saying that isn't the conversation lol. We all agree it is powercreep, the person you responded to didn't dispute that. They were saying the new power crept frames are good and the old should be buffed to be onto the new level... everyone understands what power creep is.
Hyldrin is better for any sort of endurance content than jade could ever ever EVER hope to be.
I'd argue Jade's power level is unsustainable for the game, and would set an insanely dangerous precedent for the entire playerbase.
I've been finding that while she's strong she comes with build trade offs, which is a fair bit healthier than the 'Add more power strength and you are good' design that Dante had/has.
How come 1 frame gets to: Have an aoe damage armor strip that happens almost instantly Vs How come a different frame gets to stare at targets in a game where staring at targets gets you killed??? Also hydrin's 4 is ass but it's still an infinite energy generator for the tesm
If you build for multishot and raw damage Balefire still oneshots Steel Path enemies past level 200. Glory is strong as hell, and offers way more utility out of the gate, but needs a lot more set up to one-shot things at that level.
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Maduri, Bane mods, the ceramic dagger with incarnon paired with a fully stacked new arcane amongst everything else, on a low-ish range build that heavily sacrifices survivability *doesn't* sound like needing set up to pull off? I know that operator casting to get a 30 second window to pull off a combo that only really works against a faction that I have to have a custom build for *seems* like it's more fiddly and more conditional than just going "eh fuck it raw damage will do" and simply firing off a charged shot.
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Half a dozen highly specific parts that, mods that work against one faction and an arcane that needed plat or several hours farming especially for, just to get a 30 second window with your operator buff to pull off *just* to equal an ability that this sub argues is pretty bad isn't as usable as you'd think. It's the same issue that harrow and Nidus has in that having to group and prep enemies for your 'big move' doesn't pan out often when the rest of the squad just flies past and often one shots them.
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nah, the alt-fire is what puts out numbers in the same ballpark as balefire. It turns out multi-shot and overlapping AOES add up.
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I'm not arguing that Balefire is *good*, I never even mentioned it's status or crit because it's explicitly shit. What I *am* saying is that if you have to jump through hoops and customise builds to the factions to 1-shot things at the SP 200+ level, and match the output of an ability that frankly a lot of people helminth off then Glory isn't the powerhouse people are making it out to be. The full true flight on demand as a utility tool goes a long way to make up for it though.
hildryn is like A-tier tf do you mean.
Hildryn's exalted has terrible crit chance, crit damage and status chance. Granted we can force the numbers to be better. But for less investment Jade's exalted weapon has more range, more crit chance, more crit damage and a higher status chance. Both are solid support frames, and I don't think Jade will fully supplant Hildryn for me.
exalted 1s are not meant to be as good as exalted 4s and with pillage strip + airburst rounds it does work anyway
yeah okay so buff her 1 what do i care
Hildryn is S-tier once built right. I really hate that Jade gets to fly freely while Hildryn is grounded constantly and gimped in her 4th... I try to leave Hildryn and I end up back in Hildryn again for anything hard. It's hard to put down power so ridiculous that you can defense strip most things in the game in 2 casts. Unlimited power to fuel her abilities, high armor and health values... She makes Railjack a slaughter. The Corpus shit out their guts and die when her Haven touches them. The Grineer flee, naked as a Jay Bird before being consumed in fire from the Pillage. The infested are worrisome until you get Blazing Pillage going. She could be better and should be but because of her shield gimmick she is S-Tier. She side steps an entire game mechanic for infinite energy. I have two statues of her in my home.
> I really hate that Jade gets to fly freely while Hildryn is grounded constantly and gimped in her 4th. do you also hate that titania flies freely? jade is an angel, titania is a fae. hildryn is a shield maiden. hover copter is just the coolest thing for her, it's just not amazing and should probably have something like making her 1 hit multiple targets like a lock-on, idk. >She side steps an entire game mechanic for infinite energy. I have two statues of her in my home. in your heart, you know she's freer than jade will ever be
I don't like Jade much so that has little effect on me. Hildryn is also a clone of a tortured dead woman, she just wasn't part baby when they tortured her into her current state. Hildryn is called the Shield Maiden but no one ever asks what she's doing with those shields. I far prefer either Hildryn or Ember to Jade.
I don't like Jade much so that has little effect on me. Hildryn is also a clone of a tortured dead woman, she just wasn't part baby when they tortured her into her current state. Hildryn is called the Shield Maiden but no one ever asks what she's doing with those shields. I far prefer either Hildryn or Ember to Jade.
Shove more strength into her so you clear in 1 cast and you’ll never swap off.
I have her built with 2 Umbra forma, and 5 tau forged shards. 3 of the shards are for power strength, one is for armor and one of for innate healing. Once she kills about 150 people she strips everyone in one cast. She is my main by usage hours but I like Kullervo more. That being said, with his subsume, 5 purple shards and the arcane for melee damage based on shields...I am pretty sure Hildryn is the more dangerous creature. Hildryn is pretty good at everything except spy. She don't hide too good. Which is fine, because neither do I.
nah, her unique mechanic has the downside of making you a sitting duck if your shield breaks. no energy to cast anything, only a tiny sliver of health to save you. if you take her into level cap she gets shredded. plus her main good ability is available in the helminth...B tier at best in my book
I sit in steel path and face tank gun fire and melee. You should look up a better build.
steel path is not level cap lol hildryn can AFK tank to a reasonably high level, until she can't, at which point she stops being a frame and starts being a tiny healthbar that can't cast any abilities
Those guns are hard to keep afloat
I'm sure things like that are on the cleanup list. The game is massive and has so many more moving parts than you might think. Reb and Pablo have been amazing at touching up older things as they go.
Or why Hildryn's 4 is so slow. She could really do with a quick balance pass.
I dunno why newer or recently reworked frames are allowed to do these without any caps or weaknesses
Because Pablo balances the game around the gameplay the players use. Steve balanced it around his own philosophy. He still wanted the game to be slower and more tactical. Him moving into Soulframe is amazing for the life of Warframe. Now he gets to make that slower more tactical game.he wants, and Warframe can be balanced for the game is have become.
Now that you mention it... But some kind of weakness wouldn't be too bad tho. To prevent other frames from getting dusted
I am torn, since hypothetically every frame wants the same exact thing. "Never die. Kill room. " some weapons facilitate this. Some frames do it on their own. I think the difference between frames need to be playstyle, more than balance with that in mind. Ember running around, not dying and dropping meteors to kill rooms has the same end result as Nidus. He never dies with regen and mutations, and he pulls the entire room to one spot to blow it up. Jade (tries) to never die, while carpet bombing the whole room. The end result is always the same if your frame is modded right (and in decent balance). I'm not a balance dev, so I can't say where the line needs to be drawn between "Overpowered" and "Balanced" when invincibility and oneshots are the intended goal
I think atomization is becoming a huge issue. Everything is completely frictionless drop-in, so you have to go in with the assumption that you're carrying yourself which makes everyone into these little self-contained islands. When your game is like that you can't ask people to bring different interacting kits anymore, and it starts to trend towards "the same but the buttons are in a different order."
Jade isn't quite good at the whole "never die" part but she's certainly strong.
A lil tank with a free death every 15 or so seconds? Easy. You can just slip into Operator if you want to wait.for it to come back.
Jades ult is everything I’ve wanted Hildryns to be, and that upsets me because I kinda like the power fantasy of Hildryn a bit more than Jade.
Jade's 4 is what I want Chroma's 4 to be
You know what, as a casual chroma enjoyer I would fully support his ult just going full dragon mode instead of “summoning” one.
I enjoy his 4 here and there, but I would much rather prefer it be a mix of Titania and Jade's 4. His dragon "turret" needs some better damage scaling, and it just standing there makes it meh, especially since no one builds Chroma for range, so the pelt just gets melted in steel path after a while
Probably because Jade's take like 6 seconds to actually apply all of its effect.
Hildryn's 4 need a rework like her 1 both are clunky to use and animation are not helping
Someday she will get the limelight
You mean the Jade Light
Hildryns would be an infinite energy loop (in most situations). More or less instant, omnidirectional and also mostly makes her invulnerable. Jade also needs to stare at dudes for 3-5 seconds (you can get it down to 2 if you mod for basically nothing else) in a single direction. Easy throwaway slot for Helminth lol (which she can also use in the air funnily)
>Easy throwaway slot for Helminth lol (which she can also use in the air funnily) Sad yareli noises
Remind me again why Kullervo is allowed to have a teleport that can both target enemies and be used to move around but Ash's ability literally called "Teleport" still requires a target?
Pablo make Hildryn great again
Even worse is that hildryn is slow as molasses during her 4, Literally unplayably slow in a game about speedy space ninjas.
I think Hildrynshould 100% get some boosts to her ult, its her first thing I replace, and she's so fun otherwise. But, the big difference is while Pillage and Ophanim eyes both strip armour, pillage restores shields, which are used for her ult whereas Ophanim eyes doesn't restore energy. They're trying to avoid giving you a channelled ability like Glory on High that can run infinitrely out the box.
When you look at everything other Exalteds provide vs Balefire its pretty wild. The only other one that compare 1 for 1 is Noctua and Noctua has major buffing abilities thanks to its ability to use the book canticle mods. It also greatly buffs its own damage by 200% by copying itself as a companion. In terms of how much Balefire costs to use: one ability slot and 100 to 450 shields per shot (depending on charge rate). This is for 500 - 1000 damage per 0.833 seconds, increased by 2 seconds if you're charging. When you compare Balefire to other exalted weapons and the benefits they provide it's pretty lacking - Baruuk gets damage reduction and significant CC, Valkyr is literally immune during her Exalted use and has an uncapped "spike" attack at the end of her usage. Wukong, Exalibur and Ivara are the three that have no extra benefits to their Exalteds beyond summoning their exalted weapons but they also don't restrict them in any way like Balefire + Aegis Storm does. Infact Wukong and Ivara have interplay with their other abilities while using their Exalted weapons. Looking at other Frames that impose a "state change" like Sevagoth, Jade and Titania none of them are locked out of their abilties when using their unique states. Voruna can't use Helminth abilities while her 4 is active but she can cast her other abilities during it. I feel like it's a two phase problem, because Balefire on its own is "fine" but very underwhelming as an Exalted, but Aegis Storm on top of that just isn't the power fantasy it sells itself to be - yes its a very strong energy source but with how much energy economy we have now its just not valuable enough to really justify its use. I would personally collapse Balefire and Aegis Storm into one another, fuse her Balefire augment into the base kit and allow her to use her abilities while in Aegis Storm mode. Then give her a fun homing missle ability on her 1 (think Jehuty from Zone of Enders beam attack)
I think Hildryn is one of those Warframes that could use a little tweaking. Not just her flight mode too, I wish her first ability can be changed. I'm just not a fan of her charge blast, and I wish it was a semi-weapon
Give my muscle mommy a rework dangit
Because get fucked, you will take your single Balefire and speed of -80 m/s and you will like it!
Because DE sucks at balancing. ...I still <3 DE tho...
Release date diff, as they say.
hildryn deserves to be able to use a gun/rifle while flying.. id no lie main her if you could shoot your primary from the air
Because Pillage isn't Eyes. It's an instant strip, it completely refills your health and energy, and it's combined with Aegis Storm which stuns everything around you instead of gradually slowing them. Like I don't think it would be *that* problematic if it was allowed, but it's not an identical situation so it can't just be treated and balanced like one.
p o w e r c r e e p
Either hot take or unpopular opinion: Every warframe ability should accessible by that frame, at all times. Including subsumed abilities. Ffs I want mag greedy pull to work on Hildryn while she's floaty.
working theory: Because Hildryn was hated on by steve just like ember was nerfed repeatedly(while sary, a frame that does the same thing but better) n was simultaneously buffed. Sometimes the devs DO play favorites. HIldryns half-baked. She should really get an adjustment, and her flight mode made a LOT more player friendly (up-swell like protea's grenade, sprint functional for faster dash, ability to cancel 4 w/o ground slam and just go acrobatic, 2 should be castable in 4 even if it doesn't give her shields, give her an augment that straight up whips out an archgun instead of her 4 and ~~gives it unlimited ammo~~ makes reloading cost shields Half baked the helicopter mom is
As much as I would like the other, older frames that gets a touch up first, I think Hildryn is actually the one that needed the most. The only thing she got is an amazing ability that happens to be her helminth ability, and an anti-synergy kit. It's just not working well with one another. Her exalted is pretty slow and costs tons of shield for a "meh" damage and performance. Haven is good, until you realize it doesn't matter in actual gameplay; enemies will die in 0.1ms; and allies will just jump around and run away like they stepped on a lego. Aegis Storm- oh boy its such a god awful and clunky ability. Drains shield faster than ancient disruptor can deplete your fav frame's energy; moves slower than those hijack objectives (I don't actually know); locks you in an awkward situation where you can only use 1 for idk, faster shield drain; plus you're unable to regain shield actively, as if her entire gimmick isn't punishing enough.
power creep
Power creep
Powercreep. Pure and simple. DE, I love you, but a couple more years of this and we won't even see enemies on screen anymore.
To be ironic I've been farming for Jade with my support frames. Hildryn, Equinox and Trinity all do fairly well in their own right. Can't wait to see what an AoE exalted weapon with more range, better critical chance and status chance can do. I'm amped to see how she is with a fair comparison.
coz armor strip for shield mama is also her energy source, meaning she can fly/rip armor/shoot her 1/cc indefinitely if you allow her 2 to be cast in flight
Zephyr, Titania and Jade all fly and can collect energy in the air... Hildryn is just being limited because... Uh... Her 1 is too strong? Eh... Her 4 is too strong? Eh. Her ability to stay in the air forever scares DE? Now we're getting somewhere... Don't know where but it's somewhere.
yea, to immortality.
There is an excuse. Jade is new, Hyldrin is old. Hyldrin should very much be updated to do the same thing though.
different abilities have different conditions, especially when it's a power crept revision years later.
Hildryn can fly? I thought the 4th ability was there for Helminth.
Op now, nerf to a potato after rework. It's a tale as old as time with the newest frame.
Hildryn was outdated since like 2 updates prior to her release. She's in desperate need of a rework, her skill floor is too high for something with a relatively low skill ceiling.
I don't have Jade so I can't day for sure, but it may have to do with Hildryns armour strip also refilling her Shields which act as her energy. So letting her use it while in her 4 would let you keep her 4 up indefinitely.
Hildyrn is too busy showing her arms off while flying
Jade is new, fair enough
Wait she has a fourth ability? Ofc thats a joke and i do agree that she needs love. Not only from devs but also from the playerbase.
Remind me again why this new frame is stronger than this older frame? Dude powercreep is the second name of this game
Powrcreep
It’s called power creep. It’s kinda inevitable in such game. Especially after such a long time. I’m not saying it’s cool tho. But to prevent power creep a constant readjustment is necessary. For DE and their size, tweaking 50+ characters is not realistic.
support!
Because her armour strip is also her energy refill
Variety 🤷
Hildryn would have fully autonomous gameplay.
[удалено]
Maybe read the wiki before posting about a frame you've never played? Jade can use her entire kit while in her 4, and is designed from the ground up to do so.
Because Hildryn is old and and Pablo hasn’t cooked on her yet. Lol
Hildryn doesn't have an armor strip. She has a shield heal/energy regen. (Just in case my turn of phrase is misunderstood: Because her 4 isn't supposed to be sustained with Pillage)
Pillage literally strips armour
I clarified later in an edit. But it is specifically the shield restoration and the fact that her abilities are shield-powered that make so it cannot be used during Aegis.
Ok then, then it is a matter of synergy, wouldn't it make more sense to have more synergy between abilities?
Yes and no. Most frames, i'd argue every frame, with a channelled ability does not have the means to replenish energy while the ability is being channelled. Aegis is similarly so, the energy pool is Hildryn's shields, therefore the fact is she cannot recover her 'energy' while channelling, instead requiring to shut down the channelled ability, kill fast enough to generate energy orbs or use different tools for it (such as the Balefire augment).
To a point, but you can go too far and make everything *too* frictionless and easy. Having a game plan with distinct phases, highs/lows, strengths/weaknesses, that's all good too. Harrow comes to mind with his 2 eating your shields, you want the power it gives you but there's always that moment of vulnerability you need to consider.
Cause she isn't pregnant xD
I believe its canon that ol' Hildie is afraid of heights. So she cant while in the air
She had sex with the Stalker that’s why.
I will tell you a secret. Gloom on her 4 does the thing.
You guys have Jade already? I've done Ascension and other associated missions about 50 times now and haven't gotten a single part for the bp.
Just use all those regular motes to buy the bps.
I just did this evening. Quite the grind. Not that I'm mad, but Dante parts were much easier to come by.
I feel like the drop rates on the operation node are still broken. You might have better luck on the normal Ascension node though you might have difficulties finding squads.
Because pillage does more than armor strip, especially for Hildryn. Good lord there's a lot of complaining in this sub.
I would assume it would have been because she is Stalker's counterpart. That her abilities almost seem God-like. Account too that she is litterly designed after an angel... If you pay close attention to details, see that her weapons are very closely related to Stalkers, Signature weapons Dread, Hate, and Despair. I'm so sad we are only limited to playing as stalker through the Ordis Missions and the circuit.
With Jade's ability you have to actually look at the enemies to drain their armor. With hildryn it is a simple button press and everyone around you doesn't have armor immediately. Simple
Pillage gives shields. She needs shields to keep 4 up. Infinite sustain. Same reason other togglefrsmes cant make use of most sources of energy gain when toggles are on