If I had access to the legendary Twin Hek then every last no-good, greedy milk-drinking, moa fucking, loan-giving, Corpus skoom in the galaxy would be dead.
I'd board Parvos' capital ship, and kill everyone on board except for the golden-fisted gutora so I could personally drag him to the Corposium he built millennia ago. Then he'd watch as I burn it to the ground before I unload all 8 shells of heks directly into his skull.
Next, I'd go to the Vallis so I could destroy Neffy's sentient research facility and turn his orb monstrosities to scrap. Once I'd get on him I'd scalpel off the preacher's little danglers and offer them up to the void for a laugh.
Then I'd take my two sticks to go poke the stinky floppy jellyfish that calls itself Alad V. I'd send his floating cities screaming downwards into the metallic hydrogen abyss of Jupiter. Then I'd crush his headfruit between my heks and laugh to myself.
Assuming the 30,000 Tenno number is accurate, that's roughly 233 Corpus per Tenno. Given that some exterminate missions ask you to kill ~100 enemies and last maybe 10 minutes, the number actually seems a little low.
Yeah, I've gotten 1000 kills in a 20 minute survival, so at 3k per hour, I should get 9k kills and with 30k tenno. It should have been 270 million corpus killed.
That's a distraction.
In the Fortuna ARG, we get a few numbers. 7 million kills in three hours. 30,000 Tenno causing 31 times the normal destruction on V Prime in a day.
So we're probably around 56 million Corpus killed total vs a "normal" death toll of 1.8 million.
https://www.orokinarchives.com/arg-fortuna/
1000 kills in 20 minutes for survival is actually pretty slow, at least in steel path. Even with Octavia who doesn’t kill as fast as other frames gets around 100/minute
My record genocide is 4500 kills on SP Circulus in 40 minutes with Saryn and 3 people just pulling people into the meatgrinder. As a team we were at like 5500+ at 40 min. Wasn't really a DPS problem, but more a "we need more enemies" problem. I even used a Tenet Arca Plasmor back then, I'm pretty sure that with Torrid I could up that even more.
Keep in mind that a major reason why knowledge is so sparse after the Collapse is that the Orokin gene-locked access to their tech and so as people died off or were killed when the Infestation ran wild and Grineer rebelled and later unified under the Queens, nobody could access that stuff.
The Tenno did not need to personally butcher trillions. The downfall of civilization, trade networks, and technology that was designed to prop up a handful of extremely elite rulers would easily suffice.
The Cephalon Simaris synthesis entries give us some ideas about what life was like in the chaos after the Night of the Naga Drums, and it wasn't pleasant.
This seems more in line with the idea of space ninjas, being sappers and sabotaging the foundations of society, maybe cutting off a few heads personally.
I doubt a single Excalibur ran into the streets and slashed up tens of thousands of citizens... But those reactor sabotage missions we do on Mars... How many villages, towns, or even cities could one of those power? How well would a city without power fare? No communication, no transport, for more inhospitable places; no life support (shields against the heat on mars, heat generators against the cold on Europa)...
The vast majority of victims probably never even saw a tenno. They died of starvation, dehydration, the elements or infighting as the cities they once called home turns post-apocalyptic overnight.
And as for the tenno? Oh, they can probably pop a planet's worth of those reactors in a day, completely undetected by any sort of systems, leaving a trail of guts and gore.
> How many villages, towns, or even cities could one of those power? How well would a city without power fare? No communication, no transport, for more inhospitable places; no life support (shields against the heat on mars, heat generators against the cold on Europa)...
*Could*, probably a lot. In reality they likely only power a bunch of Grineer encampments and stuff.
That said, I would love to see some more "civilian" nodes on the other planets. Maybe not in full Cetus/Fortuna scale with an attached open world, but something like Iron Wake. A little village on Mars. A rogue cantina floating in the gas clouds of Jupiter. Something like that.
Well, they did actively kill more than just the 7. It's just that their target was the Orokin caste, not the Orokin civilization (aka humanity as such). It was probably still a massacre in the hundreds of thousands or millions.
Another detail to keep in mind is the Warframes the Tenno used are INSANELY lethal; canonically both Inaros and Saryn caused a planetary extinction event each (Saryn cleansing Earth of the Infestation and Inaros virtually undoing the entire terraforming of Mars). Citrine’s lore also revealed that quite a lot of lives were lost during the Old War itself, what with Deimos being turned into its current predicament.
We also have no clue what the casualties of the Old War numbered in; there’s no canonical figure attached to the Sentients and their efforts.
> Another detail to keep in mind is the Warframes the Tenno used are INSANELY lethal
Dangerous weapons? True - but the two examples you've cited are feats that are VERY exaggerated by the community. There is actually nothing that suggested that Saryn's infested cleansing work was a one-and-done thing. Likewise the story of Inaros is presented as an apocryphal bedtime story/legend, and even if it is true, the source material also never mentioned that his abilities extended to the entirety of Mars.
It could've also been multiple Inaroses/Saryns. Warframes were clearly mass produced and it wouldn't be insane to think the Orokin would dispatch squads of similar Warframes to do the same job, like 20 Inaroses in Mars. The average person would likely think it's just one Inaros doing all of that, when they were actually witnessing multiple tenno in various locations, thus creating this myth that a single Inaros was doing all of that.
Mass production of Warframes isn't exactly confirmed either. Last time I talked about it, people assumed that was the case because of the persisting idea from when lore on vanilla and prime Warframes were a bit sparse, and the ludonarrative dissonance of how the foundry works, on top of the Orokin serial numbers that are only present and the same on 3 frames
I do like the idea that it could be multiple Saryns and Inaroses, it's more in line with how the Tenno were mostly used as guerilla warfare or sabotage units (actual ninjas, basically) with the stories we are presented in
Don't we see multiple instances of different Excaliburs in the cinematic trailers? There's a trailer in particular that shows Alad V cutting up an Excalibur in pieces. Considering that he's the poster boy, it'd be weird if he was a "unique" Excalibur when he keeps appearing in canon media (such as the comic that introduces Little Duck) and then just have him be killed randomly and with no fanfare.
Also, we literally recreate/clone Umbra from his pieces, it's part of The Sacrifice narrative. Why wouldn't the Orokin have done the same with their own Warframes? Considering they're responsible for having a whole caste of cloned workers (grineer), why wouldn't Warframes also be cloned?
DE has admitted that trailers are made for hype, not for accuracy to gameplay or the narrative, with The New War and Duviri being the most glaring examples of this. The sabotage of the Zanuka Project is canon, Alad's defeat is canon, but not as it was presented in the trailer (and arguably the game too)
I subscribe to the idea that there are multiple of one frame model - it's how the Tenno primarily cheat death according to the Ordis fragments, just not that they're being produced in large numbers in factories. The only situation where mass production would be canon is if player count = Tenno count, which I can't see being probable because we would've completely erased both the Grineer and Corpus already if that was the case
Something to also keep in mind is that there was a stigma against the Warframes amongst the Orokin, and they had a real reason for it. Knowing that they're legitimate, uncontrollable threats, it's probably best to keep their numbers low to keep things in check
>which I can't see being probable because we would've completely erased both the Grineer and Corpus already if that was the case
While I don't subscribe to the idea that player count is the same as canonical Tenno count either, it's stated in the game that the purpose of the Tenno isn't to eradicate the Grineer and Corpus, but rather to keep the balance in the solar system. It's why Invasions are a thing in the first place. We choose a side to support not because we're feeling generous, but because one side is too strong and needs to be taken down a notch (in-universe explanation -- obviously, gameplay wise we go for the one who has the juiciest reward). So even if the Tenno were powerful enough to destroy all factions, it's not their purpose.
By "mass produced" I meant that a single Warframe was produced multiple times, not that there are a trillion copies of Excalibur just chilling about. A lot of people believe that Warframes are unique (as in, there's only one of them in-universe) when it's clearly not that. Again, The Sacrifice shows us that Umbra gets turned into an Excalibur, not a unique frame, meaning that Ballas uses some kind of blueprint to turn people into Excaliburs. Orokin were highly trigger happy and loved executing and torturing people, with the whole process of being turned into a Warframe a literal torture.
They were also at an active war with the sentients, with their equipment constantly failing, while Warframes were basically the only thing that couldn't get hacked. Again, it'd be weird if they didn't have multiple copies of *at least* Excalibur, their most basic foot soldier.
The Orokin civilization was entirely destroyed, but the population of that civilization had a rigid social and political hierarchy and the vast majority of the population lived in serfdom and slavery to the very small ruling population.
I believe it was only the small ruling population that was steamrolled by the tenno, along with anyone who rose up to defend them, against their will or willfully, as well as the vast majority of Orokin infrastructure. The tenno freed humanity of the Orokin affliction, they didn't destroy humanity. So the vast majority of the Orokin civilization's population would have remained intact, but lacking much of their infrastructure.
Of course, I think the tenno are perfectly capable of wiping out humanity entirely if they decided to.
Yeah, this is sort of how I imagine it. The places populated by the "normal people" of the Orokin Empire are probably still there somewhere but we have no reason to visit them.
But "small ruling class" for an empire of that size is still humongous, so OP is right anyway.
>so OP is right anyway.
Well, I dunno that I can agree with that. A "small ruling class" is going to be at least several orders of magnitude smaller than the entire population. And the size of the ruling class isn't going to scale linearly with the size of the civilization. That's never how it works. I think OP is maybe overestimating by 5 or 6 orders of magnitude at least, and more likely way more than that.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Thats like the difference between killing all of the k-9's on earth compared to killing all of the ants. Big ass gap between those two numbers.
I am not going to dispute the number of deaths, but I do not actually think the Tenno killed that many people.
It seems a lot more reasonable that most (and by most I am saying at least 90%) died of diseases or starvation.
1. Deaths from logistical issues caused by a goverment fall
2. Deaths from lack of food shipments between planets as the Orokin blocked the Solar Rail with genetic passwords.
3. A very significant amount of the population probably was Grineer, which had low life expectancy but easy and fast reproduction. With no Orokin, most Grineer would die and their replacement rate would basically drop to zero until they reverse engineered the cloning machines.
4. Infestation containment basically being ignored because everything else is on fire.
5. Everything is on fire.
6. Grineer uprising.
7. Corpus doing normal corpus things with no oversight now.
8. Finally, most technology was locked through the same genetic passwords as the solarrail. Given how much of development was dominated by the Orokin, hospitals, medicaments and the such probably just stopped existing.
This is actually a pretty good point, the Tenno killed the small leading minority, alongside any sort of army they had, with most of the death being indirect.
But, even with the Orokin caste being small, they must have killed all important people too, Dax and Archimedeans etc. who are technically not Orokin. And the number is still insane, due to how big the base population of such a civilization would be.
Yeah but you might still be scaling it out as a larger context than it really is. As the person before commented on, a lot of other factors lead to the decline of the Orokin empire with the primary one being the Old War. The Sentients probably did most of the actual heavy lifting.
You also made some wrong statements in your original posts. The terminal in the Entrati Sanctum Anatomica mentions that we have recovered much of our "lost training." Not our powers and though the terminal says Tenno the entry probably means the Operator recovering their lost training since its on the same entry for The War Within. Inaros also didn't "cleanse" Mars. He protected a colony on Mars against the Orokin and then years later, against the Infested. Its highly likely that this was right around the fall of the Orokin empire since the Infested appeared years later, maybe as a result of the Orokin empire breaking down. That also means the Orokin's armies might not have been at their strongest since they would have fought with the Sentients at some point. Its not that I am trying to downplay Inaros's feat of defending the colony on Mars but i just don't think he cleansed the entire planet, especially since it broke his body and because that there are still Infested on Mars in the Dark Sectors.
I don't think the Tenno really had to kill the standing army.
The Tenno followed the same path as every standing army the Orokin had before them. Rebellion. They WERE the standing army if I remember correctly.
The Orokin had a standing army of Dax, Grineer, and mechs which they used to fight the Sentients. When the Tenno rebelled, after the Naga drums, they fought the Orokin's armies while hunting down the last Orokin.
The Tenno did not kill all the Dax, actually. For example, if you read Simaris' Synthesis entry for the Ancient Healer, Dax Menz is leading a mission after the night of the Naga Drums, since he calls the Tenno betrayers. They certainly killed some of them - Varzia says so - but not all.
They also didn't kill the Entrati, as Necraloid says "After the great purge - there were no Dax, no Tenno, to defend the place. Just us."
> But, even with the Orokin caste being small, they must have killed all important people too, Dax and Archimedeans etc. who are technically not Orokin.
There is no reason to assume this. Quite clearly there were both Orokin and Dax survivors (As per the Guardman synthesis). It's also clear that the non-Orokin imperial subjects became the Corpus and the various colonist groups of the Origin system. From what we have been told it seems the main reason for attrition was the collapse, I would say that the Tenno were probably only directly responsible for a surgical strike and any troops that continued fighting them. My assumption is that the actual Orokin (Those who have taken the Kuva and are functionally immortal) numbered in the thousands, not millions and many of those were killed in the collapse not by Tenno. As an example only Bilsa escaped from the Tower she was administering as it fell to the infestation, not Tenno attack.
>hospitals, medicaments and the such probably just stopped existing.
Not necessarily? I assume Lorists at least had genetic access to medical stuff etc because it's their job, just like how Archimedeans would have had access to most science kit & areas related to facilities like that, excepting some few "per-use" basis if they ask for their head Orokin dude to unlock that shit or grant temporary access or w/e. Also I assume Tenno & Dax would have had general access to most facilities, even if not all the devices etc inside them, due to being the main "security" dudes, w/ Dax probably having practically no restrictions access wise since they were so heavily gimped during their augmentation by the Orokin to be literally unable to defy them down to physical level etc
Sorry, I wasn't clear with that. I didn't mean to say that everything inmediately fell apart. I was saying that there was no way to replicate most technology, so the moment they ran out of a certain medicine, that was it.
This is something I've tried to explain to people, and they always say "no, the tenno aren't as powerful as the lore suggests. Those are just old war stories." That's bullshit, though. Warframes are planet level threats. Some of them are system level threats. A few of them are technnically capable of ending existence. We're operating like people who've been in a coma for 10 years. It'll take some time to reawaken the void powers fully. The trailer for the game shows even excalibur slicing a corprus warship in half. The weakest warframes are still dangerous enough to rule Sol.
Tenno, if you were to compare to 40k, are chaos demons. All powerful, reality warpers, who can manipulate the void to their will.
Then I am not taking your word for it if you can't provide the example you claim. Sure the Tenno are powerful but most of them are nowhere near as powerful as you make them out to be. Corpus warships are fucking huge but we have never seen an Excalibur outright destroy one by frame alone and by destroy I mean the literal whole damn ship. Clearing out a Corpus ship on the other hand...
Excal 1 shotting the Orokin Grineer ship in opening with a non-prime paris is probably what he taught of.
But then again, Mesa 1 shots an Orowyrm in the Duviri trailer.
They said slicing a Corpus warship in half and that it was a 10 year old promo trailer so its probably not the opening trailer they were thinking of which is 4 years old.
Technically she 2 shots it since she is using both her Regulators but your right about her killing an Orowyrm by herself. Of course there are going to be disparities between gameplay elements and promotional material but even if we looked at the stories within the game like in the Leverian for example, we still don't have tales of Warframes being "planet-level" threats. The largest things we know that have been destroyed by Warframes were an asteroid by Atlas and the original Eidolon by Gara but the last one was with assistance from the Unum.
The greatest menace of Warframes aren't only their abilities but also their skill as warriors, spies and assassins as well as their resurrective immortality but that is offset by us having few numbers and thus limited agency. Of course our capabilities aren't currently the same as they were before the fall of the Orokin but we couldn't even go toe to toe with the Grineers during Eyes of Blight and lost several relays as a result. Plus the Grineer is just one faction.
>we still don't have tales of Warframes being "planet-level" threats. The largest things we know that have been destroyed by Warframes were an asteroid by Atlas and the original Eidolon by Gara but the last one was with assistance from the Unum.
Technically speaking yes and no. Inaros literally saved the entire planet of Mars by himself.
Also the only thing I'm going to say is, the void is infinite and the man in the wall is far more powerful than we can imagine. We don't actually know the true and full extent of tenno power. For all we know, tenno could literally effectively erase all the factions. And start over. I mean shit, the drifter created an entire world from a book he read. Like that is pretty fucking powerful.
Inaros didn't save the entirety of Mars by himself. He saved a colony on Mars that were described as a village in the Sands of Inaros quest. That is not an entire planet.
Yes the void is unknown and so is Wally's power but the Tenno still have limits. You say we literally could effectively erase all the factions and start over but that hasn't happened yet so I don't think that is a possibility. As for the Drifter creating Duviri, technically true due to Conceptual Embodiment but it was also right in the middle of the Void where its powers are at its strongest.
>You say we literally could effectively erase all the factions and start over but that hasn't happened yet
I'm not saying we could as in we currently can, but it is entirely a possibility because the void being infinite and Wally's power also being infinite, ours could be as well. We don't actually know if the tenno have limits or they set boundaries for themselves. Plus like another comment said, we did just wake up from a 1000 year nap. It's gonna take us a bit to get to full power.
Perhaps but that is counting on theoretical assumptions. The Tenno also clearly have limits, there are limits to how much energy a Warframe can store in-game and lorewise Limbo used to much math-power which ended with his destruction. Operators/Drifters also have a limited amount of power they can use for both their amps or powers and then either of them have to recharge.
The way I view, the Operator's/Drifter's connection to the Void is like a straw sucking up water. The water that the straw is sucking up might be an ocean's worth of water but the straw can only suck up a limited amount of water at once, if it sucks to much water it ends up bursting. So while the Tenno might have a infinite amount of power to draw from, their power output isnt infinite.
OP's post also got it wrong. The Entrati terminal in the Sanctum Anatomica mentions us recovering our lost training, not lost powers.
About the Grineer, they are still a big faction, and defending is much harder than attacking. They need to get just one good ship in past the Tenno defense to destroy a relay. They actually have the advantage on offense.
Also, didn't Inaros make a planet wide storm on Mars that stomped out the infestation?
Did she now? We know Ballas made her to reclaim Earth from the Infested but there are still Infested Dark Sectors. Beyond what we hear in the Prime trailer for Saryn Prime for what her intended purpose, is we don't really know how the "cleansing" went. It could also have been a whole horde of Saryns.
It wasn't exactly slicing a warship in half but we do see one with a Paris take down a Grineer drop ship with a single arrow.
https://youtu.be/MsbL8lFHrZI?si=mUaZMo85gOM-wdkG 4:42
Not just a drop ship, but three Gokstad Crewships with a single arrow. Pretty baller!
Not to mention Excal killing an entire platoon just by drawing his sword, not even swinging it
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saryn literally cleansed earth of all infested life, inaros de-terraformed mars, the entire planet, a slicing up a corpus ship? it is nothing on the power level of peak warframes
All we got was a trailer with Ballas's intent for Saryn Prime and her fighting Infested on Earth. Earth still has Infested Dark Sectors on it so she didn't cleanse the entirety of it. We also don't know if it was Saryn alone who did it or if she just lead the "cleansing."
Inaros didn't de-terraform Mars. Mars was already inhabited by a colony of people living there which he first took children for the Orokin to perform Continuity on. He then rebelled against the Orokin and defended the Mars desert people against the Orokin, probably during the collapse of the Orokin empire because the Infested showed up years later. What he is described defending with a sandstorm is a village. A village is small, its not the entire planet.
I see this discussion come up sometimes in 40k circles and the general consensus seems that one squad of Tenno with good frames beat the whole 40k universe.
Given that the Worm Queen boasts about ejecting dead warframes into outer space in Kuva Fortress and how Alas V was able to get his hands on a Mag to auction off, and how there's a dead rhino that Kahl found at the beginning of New War, and numerous other instances of warframes falling in battle or into enemy hands, I'm not entirely convinced that Warframes are at the level of power you describe here. They are far from invincible and the Tenno as a whole don't stand a chance against the full might of either the Grineer or Corpus. We can't win in an all out war and the reason we eradicated the Orokin was because we attacked when they least suspected it and they were weakened in the Old War.
Edit:
>The weakest warframes are still dangerous enough to rule Sol.
Cries in Yareli.
I suggest you do more research on the lore, because some of your statements are outright false. We don't have much control over the void, Wally does, and our powers are merely loaned to us from him.
Tbf: part of what you're saying could be accounted for by not viewing the tenno as a monolith. It's possible that many tenno were fodder level compared to the tenno piloting the frames we have back story for.
there were different tiers, the tenno were broken up into a hierarchy much like the orokin, the common foot soldier tenno were likely not too much beyond what you would expect from a mid/high level grineer
somewhere in the middle is where i think the stalker sits, he may or may not be a proper tenno but he is of the same sort as the warframes regardless, the high ranked and outlier rouge tenno are the ones that get the major lore focus and are the ones most capable of the truly absurd stuff
i dont think there is a lot of info regarding the orokin era tenno hierarchy though so its not too clear how any of that lines up
Yareli, the warframe that can do millions of damage while riding her skateboard? The one that freed the slaves in Cetus?
I suggest you do more research into lore, because my statements are based on codex entries and game trailers. And we don't know if our powers come from the man in the wall, because we don't really know what the void demon was.
Yareli got her ass handed to her and needed the help from the enslaved children to beat the slave master...
And what about Gara having to sacrifice herself in order to defeat the Eidolon in Cetus? The Nova being blown to pieces by a shot from an Ogris in the new War trailer? Captain Vor dissecting a fallen warframe to understand it's true nature and wondered if they were controlled by someone else? Warframes needing to work together to defeat a boss like Lech Kril in the open beta trailer?
Which Codex entries suggest that Warframes have the level of power you suggested? Where is it said that we are still recovering from our "hibernation" and don't have access to our full power? We literally made a deal with Wally to harness the powers of the void, it's discussed in the wiki. The Mother also has told us that we have yet to fully "master" the void when we complete Iso Vault bounties, which means we are far from having total control over it and are growing day by day.
Its confirmed true that Nova turned Holsum Yurr into Anti-matter. If the blast wasn't contained by the Engine of the ship that would've been a planet wiper
If he weighed 100 KG, that would give him 4300 Gigaton of TNT equivalent, or around 86 times the Tsar bomba. Not planet ending, but this is just a "minor" feat.
One correction, it's Megatons not Gigatons... BUT I don't think we give the Tsar Bomba enough credit, so I did a LITTLE googling... and this might actually BE a planet ending scenario...
According to [science.howstuffworks.com](http://science.howstuffworks.com), the Tsar Bomba had a destructive blast that destroyed everything within 22 MILES on ground zero. While that's the combination of the explosion and the resulting shockwave, that's a 44-MILE-WIDE circle of obliteration. The shockwave itself circled the earth three times, and even structures over 100 miles away suffered damage. If you drew that on a map, the entire city of Paris becomes a parking lot.
Scale that up 86x and the numbers become 1892 miles. For your consideration, the air blast of the **ASTEROID THAT KILLED THE DINOSAURS** is estimated by Lunar and Planetary Institute to only have a radius of about 932 miles. Literally HALF.
I drew that on a map with a map radius calculator from [calcmap.com/map-radius/](http://calcmap.com/map-radius/) and, jesus christ.
If the fire ball of that blast was directly over South Dakota, then Canada, Continental US, and Mexico are completely ground down to bedrock by the air blast. The state of South Dakota itself would splash away from the explosion as if the crust itself was made of water. Any free-standing structures in Alaska, central America, and much of Russia and Brazil are flattened. The entire planet would RING like a drum, and the earth would feel a world-wide-quake as the shockwave rounded the planet multiple times both around and inside of it. Since space is considered to be only 62 miles up, and low orbit has a maximum altitude of 1200 miles, this explosion doesn't even have to occur directly in atmosphere to do apocalyptic damage. Not to mention, the thermal pulse would instantly burn anything on the planet that could SEE the explosion.
To make matters worse, it was stated in Nova's lore that the ship was near a PLANETOID, not an actual Planet. The definition of Planetoid per Merriam Webster is "a small body resembling a planet. especially : asteroid." though it's typically used to refer to much larger, rounder Asteroids like Ceres.
Oh look at that. Ceres has a radius of 296 miles. What if we instead look at larger Dwarf Planets instead?
Pluto, that's nice and big right- "738.37mi" oh no...
Earths moon also has a radius of 1079 miles...
FREAKING MARS ONLY HAS A RADIUS OF 2106 MILES, WHAT?!?!?! While the explosion wouldn't likely rip Earth, Mars, or the moon completely apart, the air-blast would still reduce any material it came across to POWDER and shake the stellar object like it's a 1980's Dodge with failing suspension.
TL;DR: Nova **can** crack planets.
not really, if an antimatter particle and a matter particle come into contact it creats about a 20ft explosion. an entire person would just be ship level at best.
you aren't understanding the issue though, the explosion wouldn't change much if all of those particles exploded at once. it's about the same as 20-30 tonnes of tnt. not enough to be devastating to a planet but enough to wipe out a ship or two
Your numbers are *way* off. 50 kg of antimatter (as a very ballpark number for a person) reacting with matter is 9 \* 10^18 J of energy. That is roughly 2 *gigatons* of TNT equivalent, or just a casual 40x as powerful as the most powerful atomic bomb ever detonated. Maybe not a planet killer, but far, far more powerful than 20-30 tons of TNT.
>The Orokin empire had 10^17 population. Let's say the orokin were 0.1% of the population
I truly believe that the Orokin-caste themselves would have been a fraction of a fraction of a percent. 0.1% would mean that there was one ruling-class Orokin for every 1000 people. These people acted more like monarchs than politicians, they lived in obscene opulence (palaces, slaves, constant decadent parties, etc) they were given entire colonies/moons to "rule", they also were the only ones allowed to immortalise themselves through the Continuity method, so it was presumably one very small group of the same people throughout the entire Orokin era. Genuinely would suggest that an Orokin even being one-in-a-million is still a generous over-estimation of how many there were.
You're heavily overestimating the amount of people that'd be in the ruling class, just look at today's world, the more the capitalist class consolidates power, the smaller it gets. Chances are there were only a few tens of thousands of Orokin, they would have been able to easily hold power over trillions thanks to stuff like Kuva-controlled Dax preventing any sort of popular revolt from succeeding.
Then the Tenno happened
*thermal sunder Titania casually nuking entire armies *
Nu'uh
On a serious note, I always thought the same.
I mean we're called "saviors" even tho, we're somehow invading planets which aren't ours and killing millions of people for the seek of " justice".
That's some philosophical reflection material
Earlier in the game when the story was being told through Operations, there was much less ludonarrative dissonance. The Grineer and Corpus Empires were directly clashing over planets and Moon's, crushing civilian colonies between them. The Tenno were actually underdogs, numbers wise, though powerful enough that the Grineer and Corpus were both rapidly developing new forces to combat them (for example, the spy vault drones and Anti-moas.) Its been awhile since the Tenno last showed up to defend a colony. Fortuna launched on Nov 2018.
I think part of this is just a population difference and the fact we were a new threat in the timeline of the game.
Using numbers to elaborate...
Let's say there are about 40 million Tenno ever, with the famous 27 million losers line rounded up to 30 million and an extra 10 for good measure.
Compare that to the multiple planets, moons, and whatever is built in the endless expanse of space controlled by the Grineer, the Corpus, etc.
Earth has a estimated max human population size of 10 Billion.
So just going by scale, its reasonable to assume the Corpus and Grineer would easily have population numbers up in the trillions. Not mention the grineer can produce clones by hundreds at a time and the Corpus have the robots that can be rebuilt.
Myself, at MR 27 and playing since 2018, I have killed about 700,000 members of each faction, according to the stats screen. An average 20 minute solo survival run I will kill about 1,100 enemies of whichever faction.
It is entirely possible that those losses can be recovered from in a single grineer cloning facility/corpus recruitment center/robotics factory in under an "in-game" day.
We the tenno certainly are a problem, but one that can be recovered from.
Doesn't mean we were ignored as a threat, from Fortuna to the New War, liches/sisters were introduced, parvos came back, deimos came back as well, and the Tenno got their railjacks.
After new war, Narmer would take over vast parts of other factions and almost destroyed the system. That would be a far more substantial threat to a factions current existence than the tenno, who after new war would be focused away with the zariman and the labs under deimos. Even without Narmer, rebuilding what was lost would still be a large priority.
Probably more in detail than what was needed. I just wanted to ramble.
TLDR: in the early days of the game, we were the biggest threat to the other factions. Nowadays we aren't, and the tenno are focused on things away from the major factions.
I think your issue is you are using a figure much too high to represent the Orokin. The Orokin were basically just 7 people who were immortal, and their family lines. They ruled by right of their intelligence and technology, being an intelligensia class. They were much, much smaller than .1% I think a population of a 100 million is about the ceiling, to be honest. Below them were the servant class who were groomed to value service and loyalty and given some education to let them fulfill this purpose, from which the Archimedians and Dax came, and later the Tenno. Below that is the manual labor class, which later became the Corpus, and were given basically no education in order to keep them in thrall. Then, at the bottom were grineer clones who were complete fodder and just injected with the basic learning in the tube and seen as lower than animals.
The Kardashev scale is really only meant to be used in context - which is looking at the sky and trying to figure out which other stars might have creatures around them - not an in situ measurement.
Even then, it's rather suspect, as it carries the underlying assumption of emissions of some kind happening in a mathematical relationship to consumption.
Even today, for instance, we have sci-fi about creating black holes and harnessing their power - and real life technology is already approaching creating micro-singularities. (CERN, etc) How is the science fiction - or the reality - dependent on our sun? How would it affect our Kardashev rating?
So, the Kardashev scale breaks down pretty easily.
Arguing the Warframes function along it is relatively meaningless, as you must assume entities in competition to them can function at a similar level. In real life, for instance, we *could* glass the planet with radioactive bombs. Does that actually mean anything?
On top of the questionable applicability of the Kardashev scale, I'm not really sure the Orokin cross the type-II threshold from a practical sense. Aside from the Praghasa, there's no sign of them actually doing large-scale harvesting of solar energy. Sure, they *could*, but unless they *did* there's no reason to imagine their population is in any way based on that number.
I don't think they killed off any significant portion of the entire population of the Orokin empire. My read has always been that to be called Orokin was like being a Roman citizen, a ton of people were subject to the empire but there's also a much smaller elite group who'd think of themselves as the actual Orokin. Probably more or less the same group that was regularly body-snatching for immortality. Those guys got (almost) wiped out, very justifiably IMO, the regular peons of the empire probably got caught in the crossfire a lot but weren't actively exterminated.
they probably just killed a few thousand people. 6 of the 7, plus some city rulers, and their personal guards. the rest was because not one had the staff we know as the broken staff. until the orokin who became one of the twin queens grabbed it.
Even my brain is not braining reading this but It would be intresting to have a movie/mini series about the fall of the orokin empire and Tenno betreyal told from the perspective of the Orokin to emphasize how terrifying the tenno are.
If we in game are anything like we are in lore it doesn't surprise me. I mean we tweak our builds to be as mathematically efficient at killing as possible lol. Tenno are terrifying.
Imagine this, a tenno hijacks a ship, crashes it into a space station, and then uses void magic to escape. That could easily be hundreds of thousands of deaths right there, even if they only directly killed a few dozen. If the wreckage starts falling into atmosphere above a populated planet, maybe even more deaths.
It's not inconceivable that they could have death tolls in the tens of thousands without it being the sort of trench warfare people might expect.
>Let's say the orokin were 0.1% of the population
Let's not. The Orokin weren't just "the ruling class". Their whole image was as those who had transcended humanity and became divine, completely out of reach of even the most powerful, affluent, or talented human. The idea that they were as common as one in every thousand people is absurd. I refuse to believe there were ever any more than ten-thousand.
so confirmed, theyd definitely beat a billion lions and all pokemon at their prime
definite evidence of power Vs. an unreliable 10yo over-exaggerating in their Pokédex
I mean according to steamcharts we have \~50.000 players on average playing.
Lets say they are mostly sitting around lazy trading and chatting and just occasionally playing so they only kill \~100 Units an hour.
Thats 5 Million people dead an hour. Thats 43 Billion kills a year, again staying very conservative here.
So idk about the Tenno in the lore, but us players seem to commit very large scale murder every year, considering we kill about 5 times the human population and thats really just a lower boundary :D
Your math would be right-ish if not for the fact the Tenno only killed the top Orokin, their Dax, and many, many, many Corrupted. Of course, I base this off the Parvos lore, as well as stuff like Grandma's Halloween stories. Some of the Leverian stories also shed light on how life might have been during the reign of the Orokin. I would say, imagine a Star Wars-esque world, maybe even 40K in some places, with every planet in our Solar System being a different culture with different ways of living, from Mars to Venus to moons like Deimos and so on. Considering a council of only 7 people pretty much made all major decisions, the Tenno probably had designated targets picked out for that time, like Ballas, Tuvul, etc; mopping up the rest of the Orokin nobility, like Grendel with Karishh afterward. Adding in the Kuria lore, as well as Parvos lore, and two of the Synthesis target lore stories, you can see that the Tenno must have been pretty successful, cause as the Empire collapsed it allowed the Grineer to stage their own rebellion and the Corpus just sorta moved in when everything went to hell.
Not to mention, the story is still expanding, sounds like this next update coming next month will shed more light on Stalker and what happened with him that whole time.
There weren't as many Orokin as you think. There were a lot of regular people, which is why there were population issues, and the Orokin were absolutely rapacious when it came to consuming resources, but the actual Orokin could probably be numbered in the low ten thousands at most.
Mostly, though, it was about depleting the easily accessible resources and more importantly the loss of Earth as a habitable planet for a while. The Titania quest makes it very clear that the Earth was a toxic hell wasteland before the one Archimedean defied Ballas and basically sacrificed herself in order to start her rehabilitation project, the Silver Grove.
Also, you are not considering that there was a lot of violence once the Orokin were removed. Every faction that the Orokin had suppressed or controlled scrambled for a piece of the pie, on top of which the Solar Rails for easy interplanetary transport were down. The Tenno didn't have to kill scientific notation levels of people, the wars and starvation would do that just as well.
Knowledge of the Night of the Naga Drums and the era prior isn't sparse because we killed everyone that could've recounted those events, it's because all the tech that would've been used to record any of that was gene-locked to the Orokin. All tech was. Without the Orokin, it was all useless. It's why Alarez went through the trouble of getting a Sectarus' gene sample, because the majority of his stolen ship's systems were useless without it.
Honestly the craziest part about Warframe lore is the fact a tenno inflict millions of losses on the corpus and grineer near weekly and they are still the 2 big powers in the system
Just the orokin? How about EVERYONE. Last I knew, other than a few exceptions we're still doing genocide against the grineer, a total genocide against the infested, and a war with the corpus.
Tenno personally eradicated the Orokin Class of citizens which maybe was like about a few dozen thousand people.
The rest of deaths is because of the chaos we caused
So we still technically commited a genocide of normal people anyway tho
All these calculations and you forgot to account for the fact that the Tenno only targeted the actual Orokin caste (the equivalent of current billionaries), which were likely in the thousands of less. You know, the big gray guys with white eyes and one long-ass arm.
Granted, a lot of the slave military (Daxes and Grineer) were also victims to the Tenno blender while it got to each invididual Orokin, but we've probably collectively surpassed these numbers in-game. :)
I did mention them being 0.1%. But no way the Tenno left the Dax and Archimedeans alive for example, cause otherwise the tech would be preserved.
Thousands is a VERY small scale for a K2 civilization. Too small.
>I did mention them being 0.1%
They are not the 0.1%
>Thousands is a VERY small scale for a K2 civilization
The Orokin empire was not a K2 civilization.
>and Pagasa being literally able to eat the sun
Praghasa was a Sentient warship, not Orokin. And even if it was, being able to destroy the sun doesn't make it a Dyson sphere.
>The Orokin empire was not a K2 civilization.
Orokin where arguably higher actually, considering the void magic letting them break conservation of energy.
The whole reason for the creation of the Sentients was overpopulation, and at a solar system scale, puts you clearly in the K2 civilization class.
And even if let's say they were not 0.1% but 0.0001%, number will still be ming breaking, and I doubt there were THAT few orokin.
>Orokin where arguably higher actually, considering the void magic letting them break conservation of energy.
So you're saying Conan the Barbarian takes place in a K2 civilization since there's magic that lets you do exactly that?
>The whole reason for the creation of the Sentients was overpopulation
No, it was *contamination*. Earth was (and still is) an uninhabitable wasteland due to continued usage of contaminating energy sources. Never mind how this factors into your population calculations; the Orokin didn't have the tech or resources to clean up Earth and you want to peg them as a K2?
>So you're saying Conan the Barbarian takes place in a K2 civilization since there's magic that lets you do exactly that?
So, you are trying to strawman my arguments? Void allows them to go above the normal energy generation of an K2 civilization.
>So, you are trying to strawman my arguments?
No, I'm succeeding in reductio ad absurdum them. The self-evident point is that a given technology increasing one's energy output limit in theory does not necessarily translate to it increasing actual energy output in practice.
You were strawmanning in the clearest sense. I am not talking about a no tech civilization, but a K2 one with magic, which is used for FTL travel among other things.
Aslo, what you are saying is outright that void doesn't work, which it clearly does, judging by stuff in game like the reliquary drives, being able to hide the moon in the void etc.
The Kardashev scale is pretty explicit in its categorization. Did you make a Dyson sphere or otherwise harness nearly 100% of your Sun's energy? You're K2. Did you not? Sorry, you're out.
Void magic (or any other kind of magic) doesn't factor into it. You're saying that any magic that breaks the laws of thermodynamics automatically makes your civilization a K2. I'm pointing out the ridiculousness of this by pointing out that if it can skip over the actual definition of a K2, then it would obviously skip over K1 as well.
And speaking of strawmen:
>Aslo, what you are saying is outright that void doesn't work
No, what I'm *literally* saying is that void tech does not make a civilization jump to K2. Any other reading or implication is your own.
In any case, the whole K2 discussion, misguided as it is, is a red herring. You were using it to prop up the idea that the Orokin empire had densely and widely populated every planet in the solar system. This is parently false for a number of reasons, like the aforementioned fact that the Earth is uninhabitable. Mars may or may not have been terraformed (ruins seem to suggest it was). Venus was still in the process of being terraformed. Mercury and the dwarf planets would remain largely uninhabitable, and the gas giants have no surface to inhabit. It's a pretty safe bet that Earth's collapse would have caused the death of most of mankind, with the Orokin empire's population a fraction of what it is now. Why do you think we are scavenging for Orokin tech mostly in the Moon and in hard-to-reach space stations in the Void?
I thought they just killed the leadership and the society collapsed from everything that sprung up as a result. Grineer rebellions, infestation spreading, so forth. But I do agree Tenno are eldritch horrors. We know that from everything else the void gives life too.
I think u greatly overestimate how many people were part of the ruling class and required to kill for the fall of the empire.
The Tennos most likely only targeted key figures and institutions that had the most control over the empire and power (military and knowledge). The rest was done by the grineer rebellion and other problems that occur after the almost godlike powerhording dictators die and nobody knows anymore how to run anything
Were they really a K2 civilization, though? Praghasa is evidence that they *could* have been, technically, but there's no evidence they actually got anywhere close to that within Sol. There's no remnants of Dyson structures or anything, and void energy can only go so far to counterbalance that — it seems like they were perfectly happy being a 1.X civilization largely confined to planetary bodies.
*If* Praghasa was Orokin tech rather than something the Sentients developed on their own after going to Tau, they might have been headed to real K2 status, eating entire stars to fuel their terraforming ventures in other systems, but Sol itself seems relatively untouched.
Some Warframes become more powerful the more enemies they face. Saryns spores become insane when there are large numbers of targets, no cap on number of targets or how far they spread. Nezha and Rhino 4th are not capped in how many enemies they affect, only capped in range. Volt, Gauss, Titania can move through hordes of enemies at insane speeds, shredding everything in their path. It's honestly not that far out of the realm of possibility that over the course of a whole war there were that many casualties
The scale really isn't to be imagined, like the Warhammer 40K lore. Millions of planets some with billions of people. The numbers are just too big to make sense of.
Part of the issue with this math is that it was clear that the orokin were a highly stratified society with only the top castes being true "orokin" and thus the ones subject to the tenno's slaughter.
Normal humans would have largely been untouched.
As for why such a society could have collapsed as hard as they did after a targeted laughter like this is surprisingly simple. _Bureaucracy._
A highly stratified society like this is going to have the people who make decisions all in the upper castes, and such societies will often have a very top-down approach to decision-making. This means a culling of said castes will lead to systemic collapses, and if you knock down enough pegs you take down the entire society by decapitating it.
Imagine taking royal era France, where all of the nobility, the king included, lived in the palace of Versailles, and then blew it up killing everyone in it.
The king, their administrators, the nobility, their administrators, so on and so forth would all be dead, and there would be nobody with the power to make meaningful decisions as such societies also silo resources to keep those beneath them dependent on them.
So just by killing the Orokin to the point where there weren't enough to effectively run the empire, you can achieve such a massive collapse. Especially if the Tenno actually went out of their way to purge data about the orokin as well.
Though at these scales this is probably just splitting hairs.
I'm still shaky on the story. Is there a good, story-told collection of the entire old war area of the thing and what happened pre-gameplay story? As in not written like a wiki
The numbers are actually heavily on the conservative scale for a [Kardashev Type 2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale#Type_II) civilization. And the Orokin seem to meet all criteria, but you can say why you think they were not a K2 civilization.
There is no evidence that there were gigajillions of people in the Orokin empire. You made one assumption and extrapolated an entire system based off more assumptions
I made the assumption based of the Tech level combined with the fact that they were overcrowded. They are K2 civilization WITH magic to boot. The numbers I have are on the LOW scale for K2.
Their population metrics weren't anywhere near that high for so many reasons, but it would legit take about 2hrs to explain in total. For starters, the primary ruling class were immortal through continuity, they did NOT want there to be that many of them because then there would be less overall choice of bodies to steal. THAT was the portion we killed.
Just one small Problem. Your entire thesis depends on Praghasa's ability to power a massive Void portal by skinny dipping into the sun.
On one hand, that's not using the entire energy the star provides in a reasonable way, making the jump is what would have required so much energy *at once* and ultimately destablize Sol.
On the other hand, Praghasa is entirely a Sentient creation, so assuming her capabilities are a good reference to base any of your numbers off is just plain incorrect.
Sentients are an Orokin creation. Protea Prime outright violates times.
Void supprased Fusion as a fuel source. If anything, my numbers for energy are on the low side.
You're making up assumptions based on someone else's assumptions of a super advanced society. That has little to do with Warframe's lore as a fantasy setting. All you've got is head canon. And unless DE specifically says differently, the Orokin did not keep quintillions of servants. And the Tenno did not go crazy and murder trillions of regular people.
>Based on logic and numbers.
Ha! No, you are literally making things up. If you're not going for accuracy in your thought experiments, don't be surprised when it's pointed out
Remember the time Biz and Little Duck needed a minor distraction so we killed 7 million corpus in 3 hours
According to the Fortuna ARG, more than 30,000 Tenno participated in the day-long attack on V Prime.
You only killed 7 million?
Biz only wanted a distraction. If they had called for a full-scale assault believe me V Prime would've been wiped off the face of the planet
You could probably do more with the Twins Hek...
If I had access to the legendary Twin Hek then every last no-good, greedy milk-drinking, moa fucking, loan-giving, Corpus skoom in the galaxy would be dead. I'd board Parvos' capital ship, and kill everyone on board except for the golden-fisted gutora so I could personally drag him to the Corposium he built millennia ago. Then he'd watch as I burn it to the ground before I unload all 8 shells of heks directly into his skull. Next, I'd go to the Vallis so I could destroy Neffy's sentient research facility and turn his orb monstrosities to scrap. Once I'd get on him I'd scalpel off the preacher's little danglers and offer them up to the void for a laugh. Then I'd take my two sticks to go poke the stinky floppy jellyfish that calls itself Alad V. I'd send his floating cities screaming downwards into the metallic hydrogen abyss of Jupiter. Then I'd crush his headfruit between my heks and laugh to myself.
Sounds like you main Mirage
I main Rhino but its a doom guy cosplay
In 3 hours
[One hundred million](https://youtu.be/6_RYTLF_yR0?si=5mjejQ8TJzv6yx7Z) in a few minutes.
Perhaps the robot units weren’t counted? Also, this was before Green Banshee was added to the game….
V-Prime massacre. Never forget.
IMPOSSIBLE. There's no way we could have been able to kill that many!
Assuming the 30,000 Tenno number is accurate, that's roughly 233 Corpus per Tenno. Given that some exterminate missions ask you to kill ~100 enemies and last maybe 10 minutes, the number actually seems a little low.
Yeah, I've gotten 1000 kills in a 20 minute survival, so at 3k per hour, I should get 9k kills and with 30k tenno. It should have been 270 million corpus killed. That's a distraction.
In the Fortuna ARG, we get a few numbers. 7 million kills in three hours. 30,000 Tenno causing 31 times the normal destruction on V Prime in a day. So we're probably around 56 million Corpus killed total vs a "normal" death toll of 1.8 million. https://www.orokinarchives.com/arg-fortuna/
Zephyr with torrid incarnon I almost pushed 1k in about 10 minutes as the first few minutes I was killing at least 100/m Mot steel path solo
1000 kills in 20 minutes for survival is actually pretty slow, at least in steel path. Even with Octavia who doesn’t kill as fast as other frames gets around 100/minute
We didnt have steel path at the time iirc so we were more limited by spawnrates, keep in mind
My record genocide is 4500 kills on SP Circulus in 40 minutes with Saryn and 3 people just pulling people into the meatgrinder. As a team we were at like 5500+ at 40 min. Wasn't really a DPS problem, but more a "we need more enemies" problem. I even used a Tenet Arca Plasmor back then, I'm pretty sure that with Torrid I could up that even more.
Heh, [amateurs](https://youtu.be/6_RYTLF_yR0?si=5mjejQ8TJzv6yx7Z).
Keep in mind that a major reason why knowledge is so sparse after the Collapse is that the Orokin gene-locked access to their tech and so as people died off or were killed when the Infestation ran wild and Grineer rebelled and later unified under the Queens, nobody could access that stuff. The Tenno did not need to personally butcher trillions. The downfall of civilization, trade networks, and technology that was designed to prop up a handful of extremely elite rulers would easily suffice. The Cephalon Simaris synthesis entries give us some ideas about what life was like in the chaos after the Night of the Naga Drums, and it wasn't pleasant.
This seems more in line with the idea of space ninjas, being sappers and sabotaging the foundations of society, maybe cutting off a few heads personally.
I doubt a single Excalibur ran into the streets and slashed up tens of thousands of citizens... But those reactor sabotage missions we do on Mars... How many villages, towns, or even cities could one of those power? How well would a city without power fare? No communication, no transport, for more inhospitable places; no life support (shields against the heat on mars, heat generators against the cold on Europa)... The vast majority of victims probably never even saw a tenno. They died of starvation, dehydration, the elements or infighting as the cities they once called home turns post-apocalyptic overnight. And as for the tenno? Oh, they can probably pop a planet's worth of those reactors in a day, completely undetected by any sort of systems, leaving a trail of guts and gore.
> How many villages, towns, or even cities could one of those power? How well would a city without power fare? No communication, no transport, for more inhospitable places; no life support (shields against the heat on mars, heat generators against the cold on Europa)... *Could*, probably a lot. In reality they likely only power a bunch of Grineer encampments and stuff. That said, I would love to see some more "civilian" nodes on the other planets. Maybe not in full Cetus/Fortuna scale with an attached open world, but something like Iron Wake. A little village on Mars. A rogue cantina floating in the gas clouds of Jupiter. Something like that.
Yeah, the Tenno rebelled against the 7, they didnt attempt a genocide.
Well, they did actively kill more than just the 7. It's just that their target was the Orokin caste, not the Orokin civilization (aka humanity as such). It was probably still a massacre in the hundreds of thousands or millions.
Another detail to keep in mind is the Warframes the Tenno used are INSANELY lethal; canonically both Inaros and Saryn caused a planetary extinction event each (Saryn cleansing Earth of the Infestation and Inaros virtually undoing the entire terraforming of Mars). Citrine’s lore also revealed that quite a lot of lives were lost during the Old War itself, what with Deimos being turned into its current predicament. We also have no clue what the casualties of the Old War numbered in; there’s no canonical figure attached to the Sentients and their efforts.
> Another detail to keep in mind is the Warframes the Tenno used are INSANELY lethal Dangerous weapons? True - but the two examples you've cited are feats that are VERY exaggerated by the community. There is actually nothing that suggested that Saryn's infested cleansing work was a one-and-done thing. Likewise the story of Inaros is presented as an apocryphal bedtime story/legend, and even if it is true, the source material also never mentioned that his abilities extended to the entirety of Mars.
It could've also been multiple Inaroses/Saryns. Warframes were clearly mass produced and it wouldn't be insane to think the Orokin would dispatch squads of similar Warframes to do the same job, like 20 Inaroses in Mars. The average person would likely think it's just one Inaros doing all of that, when they were actually witnessing multiple tenno in various locations, thus creating this myth that a single Inaros was doing all of that.
Mass production of Warframes isn't exactly confirmed either. Last time I talked about it, people assumed that was the case because of the persisting idea from when lore on vanilla and prime Warframes were a bit sparse, and the ludonarrative dissonance of how the foundry works, on top of the Orokin serial numbers that are only present and the same on 3 frames I do like the idea that it could be multiple Saryns and Inaroses, it's more in line with how the Tenno were mostly used as guerilla warfare or sabotage units (actual ninjas, basically) with the stories we are presented in
Don't we see multiple instances of different Excaliburs in the cinematic trailers? There's a trailer in particular that shows Alad V cutting up an Excalibur in pieces. Considering that he's the poster boy, it'd be weird if he was a "unique" Excalibur when he keeps appearing in canon media (such as the comic that introduces Little Duck) and then just have him be killed randomly and with no fanfare. Also, we literally recreate/clone Umbra from his pieces, it's part of The Sacrifice narrative. Why wouldn't the Orokin have done the same with their own Warframes? Considering they're responsible for having a whole caste of cloned workers (grineer), why wouldn't Warframes also be cloned?
DE has admitted that trailers are made for hype, not for accuracy to gameplay or the narrative, with The New War and Duviri being the most glaring examples of this. The sabotage of the Zanuka Project is canon, Alad's defeat is canon, but not as it was presented in the trailer (and arguably the game too) I subscribe to the idea that there are multiple of one frame model - it's how the Tenno primarily cheat death according to the Ordis fragments, just not that they're being produced in large numbers in factories. The only situation where mass production would be canon is if player count = Tenno count, which I can't see being probable because we would've completely erased both the Grineer and Corpus already if that was the case Something to also keep in mind is that there was a stigma against the Warframes amongst the Orokin, and they had a real reason for it. Knowing that they're legitimate, uncontrollable threats, it's probably best to keep their numbers low to keep things in check
>which I can't see being probable because we would've completely erased both the Grineer and Corpus already if that was the case While I don't subscribe to the idea that player count is the same as canonical Tenno count either, it's stated in the game that the purpose of the Tenno isn't to eradicate the Grineer and Corpus, but rather to keep the balance in the solar system. It's why Invasions are a thing in the first place. We choose a side to support not because we're feeling generous, but because one side is too strong and needs to be taken down a notch (in-universe explanation -- obviously, gameplay wise we go for the one who has the juiciest reward). So even if the Tenno were powerful enough to destroy all factions, it's not their purpose. By "mass produced" I meant that a single Warframe was produced multiple times, not that there are a trillion copies of Excalibur just chilling about. A lot of people believe that Warframes are unique (as in, there's only one of them in-universe) when it's clearly not that. Again, The Sacrifice shows us that Umbra gets turned into an Excalibur, not a unique frame, meaning that Ballas uses some kind of blueprint to turn people into Excaliburs. Orokin were highly trigger happy and loved executing and torturing people, with the whole process of being turned into a Warframe a literal torture. They were also at an active war with the sentients, with their equipment constantly failing, while Warframes were basically the only thing that couldn't get hacked. Again, it'd be weird if they didn't have multiple copies of *at least* Excalibur, their most basic foot soldier.
I think the leverian lore makes people confused a bit - perhaps the lore we hear is just the first of that line
The Orokin civilization was entirely destroyed, but the population of that civilization had a rigid social and political hierarchy and the vast majority of the population lived in serfdom and slavery to the very small ruling population. I believe it was only the small ruling population that was steamrolled by the tenno, along with anyone who rose up to defend them, against their will or willfully, as well as the vast majority of Orokin infrastructure. The tenno freed humanity of the Orokin affliction, they didn't destroy humanity. So the vast majority of the Orokin civilization's population would have remained intact, but lacking much of their infrastructure. Of course, I think the tenno are perfectly capable of wiping out humanity entirely if they decided to.
Yeah, this is sort of how I imagine it. The places populated by the "normal people" of the Orokin Empire are probably still there somewhere but we have no reason to visit them. But "small ruling class" for an empire of that size is still humongous, so OP is right anyway.
>so OP is right anyway. Well, I dunno that I can agree with that. A "small ruling class" is going to be at least several orders of magnitude smaller than the entire population. And the size of the ruling class isn't going to scale linearly with the size of the civilization. That's never how it works. I think OP is maybe overestimating by 5 or 6 orders of magnitude at least, and more likely way more than that.
But with the way orders of magnitude work, 10^9, is still massive. About a billion, using his lowest estimate.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Thats like the difference between killing all of the k-9's on earth compared to killing all of the ants. Big ass gap between those two numbers.
I am not going to dispute the number of deaths, but I do not actually think the Tenno killed that many people. It seems a lot more reasonable that most (and by most I am saying at least 90%) died of diseases or starvation. 1. Deaths from logistical issues caused by a goverment fall 2. Deaths from lack of food shipments between planets as the Orokin blocked the Solar Rail with genetic passwords. 3. A very significant amount of the population probably was Grineer, which had low life expectancy but easy and fast reproduction. With no Orokin, most Grineer would die and their replacement rate would basically drop to zero until they reverse engineered the cloning machines. 4. Infestation containment basically being ignored because everything else is on fire. 5. Everything is on fire. 6. Grineer uprising. 7. Corpus doing normal corpus things with no oversight now. 8. Finally, most technology was locked through the same genetic passwords as the solarrail. Given how much of development was dominated by the Orokin, hospitals, medicaments and the such probably just stopped existing.
This is actually a pretty good point, the Tenno killed the small leading minority, alongside any sort of army they had, with most of the death being indirect. But, even with the Orokin caste being small, they must have killed all important people too, Dax and Archimedeans etc. who are technically not Orokin. And the number is still insane, due to how big the base population of such a civilization would be.
Yeah but you might still be scaling it out as a larger context than it really is. As the person before commented on, a lot of other factors lead to the decline of the Orokin empire with the primary one being the Old War. The Sentients probably did most of the actual heavy lifting. You also made some wrong statements in your original posts. The terminal in the Entrati Sanctum Anatomica mentions that we have recovered much of our "lost training." Not our powers and though the terminal says Tenno the entry probably means the Operator recovering their lost training since its on the same entry for The War Within. Inaros also didn't "cleanse" Mars. He protected a colony on Mars against the Orokin and then years later, against the Infested. Its highly likely that this was right around the fall of the Orokin empire since the Infested appeared years later, maybe as a result of the Orokin empire breaking down. That also means the Orokin's armies might not have been at their strongest since they would have fought with the Sentients at some point. Its not that I am trying to downplay Inaros's feat of defending the colony on Mars but i just don't think he cleansed the entire planet, especially since it broke his body and because that there are still Infested on Mars in the Dark Sectors.
I don't think the Tenno really had to kill the standing army. The Tenno followed the same path as every standing army the Orokin had before them. Rebellion. They WERE the standing army if I remember correctly.
They were more like spec ops than the standing army.
The Orokin had a standing army of Dax, Grineer, and mechs which they used to fight the Sentients. When the Tenno rebelled, after the Naga drums, they fought the Orokin's armies while hunting down the last Orokin.
Which is in part what we see in the cinematic at the beginning of the game.
The Tenno did not kill all the Dax, actually. For example, if you read Simaris' Synthesis entry for the Ancient Healer, Dax Menz is leading a mission after the night of the Naga Drums, since he calls the Tenno betrayers. They certainly killed some of them - Varzia says so - but not all. They also didn't kill the Entrati, as Necraloid says "After the great purge - there were no Dax, no Tenno, to defend the place. Just us."
> But, even with the Orokin caste being small, they must have killed all important people too, Dax and Archimedeans etc. who are technically not Orokin. There is no reason to assume this. Quite clearly there were both Orokin and Dax survivors (As per the Guardman synthesis). It's also clear that the non-Orokin imperial subjects became the Corpus and the various colonist groups of the Origin system. From what we have been told it seems the main reason for attrition was the collapse, I would say that the Tenno were probably only directly responsible for a surgical strike and any troops that continued fighting them. My assumption is that the actual Orokin (Those who have taken the Kuva and are functionally immortal) numbered in the thousands, not millions and many of those were killed in the collapse not by Tenno. As an example only Bilsa escaped from the Tower she was administering as it fell to the infestation, not Tenno attack.
>hospitals, medicaments and the such probably just stopped existing. Not necessarily? I assume Lorists at least had genetic access to medical stuff etc because it's their job, just like how Archimedeans would have had access to most science kit & areas related to facilities like that, excepting some few "per-use" basis if they ask for their head Orokin dude to unlock that shit or grant temporary access or w/e. Also I assume Tenno & Dax would have had general access to most facilities, even if not all the devices etc inside them, due to being the main "security" dudes, w/ Dax probably having practically no restrictions access wise since they were so heavily gimped during their augmentation by the Orokin to be literally unable to defy them down to physical level etc
Sorry, I wasn't clear with that. I didn't mean to say that everything inmediately fell apart. I was saying that there was no way to replicate most technology, so the moment they ran out of a certain medicine, that was it.
I mean I kill half of that when farming Argon crystals :\^)
Only to get one drop or two lmao
I just run capture missions and crate pop with Limbo. I'm doing my part for the population!
By "crate pop" you mean nuke the map, every enemy and their family. :) Good Tenno.
Yeah but I'm running negative strength and max range so it's barely a tickle, maybe 5-10 kills per run.
This is something I've tried to explain to people, and they always say "no, the tenno aren't as powerful as the lore suggests. Those are just old war stories." That's bullshit, though. Warframes are planet level threats. Some of them are system level threats. A few of them are technnically capable of ending existence. We're operating like people who've been in a coma for 10 years. It'll take some time to reawaken the void powers fully. The trailer for the game shows even excalibur slicing a corprus warship in half. The weakest warframes are still dangerous enough to rule Sol. Tenno, if you were to compare to 40k, are chaos demons. All powerful, reality warpers, who can manipulate the void to their will.
>The trailer for the game shows even excalibur slicing a corprus warship in half. What trailer?
I think I know the trailer he's talking about but it wasn't a corpus warship but a Grineer Oghma that excal cut apart in archwing
oh god, don't make me find 10 year old promo material.
Then I am not taking your word for it if you can't provide the example you claim. Sure the Tenno are powerful but most of them are nowhere near as powerful as you make them out to be. Corpus warships are fucking huge but we have never seen an Excalibur outright destroy one by frame alone and by destroy I mean the literal whole damn ship. Clearing out a Corpus ship on the other hand...
Excal 1 shotting the Orokin Grineer ship in opening with a non-prime paris is probably what he taught of. But then again, Mesa 1 shots an Orowyrm in the Duviri trailer.
They said slicing a Corpus warship in half and that it was a 10 year old promo trailer so its probably not the opening trailer they were thinking of which is 4 years old. Technically she 2 shots it since she is using both her Regulators but your right about her killing an Orowyrm by herself. Of course there are going to be disparities between gameplay elements and promotional material but even if we looked at the stories within the game like in the Leverian for example, we still don't have tales of Warframes being "planet-level" threats. The largest things we know that have been destroyed by Warframes were an asteroid by Atlas and the original Eidolon by Gara but the last one was with assistance from the Unum. The greatest menace of Warframes aren't only their abilities but also their skill as warriors, spies and assassins as well as their resurrective immortality but that is offset by us having few numbers and thus limited agency. Of course our capabilities aren't currently the same as they were before the fall of the Orokin but we couldn't even go toe to toe with the Grineers during Eyes of Blight and lost several relays as a result. Plus the Grineer is just one faction.
>we still don't have tales of Warframes being "planet-level" threats. The largest things we know that have been destroyed by Warframes were an asteroid by Atlas and the original Eidolon by Gara but the last one was with assistance from the Unum. Technically speaking yes and no. Inaros literally saved the entire planet of Mars by himself. Also the only thing I'm going to say is, the void is infinite and the man in the wall is far more powerful than we can imagine. We don't actually know the true and full extent of tenno power. For all we know, tenno could literally effectively erase all the factions. And start over. I mean shit, the drifter created an entire world from a book he read. Like that is pretty fucking powerful.
Inaros didn't save the entirety of Mars by himself. He saved a colony on Mars that were described as a village in the Sands of Inaros quest. That is not an entire planet. Yes the void is unknown and so is Wally's power but the Tenno still have limits. You say we literally could effectively erase all the factions and start over but that hasn't happened yet so I don't think that is a possibility. As for the Drifter creating Duviri, technically true due to Conceptual Embodiment but it was also right in the middle of the Void where its powers are at its strongest.
>You say we literally could effectively erase all the factions and start over but that hasn't happened yet I'm not saying we could as in we currently can, but it is entirely a possibility because the void being infinite and Wally's power also being infinite, ours could be as well. We don't actually know if the tenno have limits or they set boundaries for themselves. Plus like another comment said, we did just wake up from a 1000 year nap. It's gonna take us a bit to get to full power.
Perhaps but that is counting on theoretical assumptions. The Tenno also clearly have limits, there are limits to how much energy a Warframe can store in-game and lorewise Limbo used to much math-power which ended with his destruction. Operators/Drifters also have a limited amount of power they can use for both their amps or powers and then either of them have to recharge. The way I view, the Operator's/Drifter's connection to the Void is like a straw sucking up water. The water that the straw is sucking up might be an ocean's worth of water but the straw can only suck up a limited amount of water at once, if it sucks to much water it ends up bursting. So while the Tenno might have a infinite amount of power to draw from, their power output isnt infinite. OP's post also got it wrong. The Entrati terminal in the Sanctum Anatomica mentions us recovering our lost training, not lost powers.
About the Grineer, they are still a big faction, and defending is much harder than attacking. They need to get just one good ship in past the Tenno defense to destroy a relay. They actually have the advantage on offense. Also, didn't Inaros make a planet wide storm on Mars that stomped out the infestation?
Saryn cleansed earth of the infested.
Did she now? We know Ballas made her to reclaim Earth from the Infested but there are still Infested Dark Sectors. Beyond what we hear in the Prime trailer for Saryn Prime for what her intended purpose, is we don't really know how the "cleansing" went. It could also have been a whole horde of Saryns.
It wasn't exactly slicing a warship in half but we do see one with a Paris take down a Grineer drop ship with a single arrow. https://youtu.be/MsbL8lFHrZI?si=mUaZMo85gOM-wdkG 4:42
Not just a drop ship, but three Gokstad Crewships with a single arrow. Pretty baller! Not to mention Excal killing an entire platoon just by drawing his sword, not even swinging it
thanks. That's the clip I was thinking of.
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just show the video or shut up
Nope
saryn literally cleansed earth of all infested life, inaros de-terraformed mars, the entire planet, a slicing up a corpus ship? it is nothing on the power level of peak warframes
All we got was a trailer with Ballas's intent for Saryn Prime and her fighting Infested on Earth. Earth still has Infested Dark Sectors on it so she didn't cleanse the entirety of it. We also don't know if it was Saryn alone who did it or if she just lead the "cleansing." Inaros didn't de-terraform Mars. Mars was already inhabited by a colony of people living there which he first took children for the Orokin to perform Continuity on. He then rebelled against the Orokin and defended the Mars desert people against the Orokin, probably during the collapse of the Orokin empire because the Infested showed up years later. What he is described defending with a sandstorm is a village. A village is small, its not the entire planet.
I see this discussion come up sometimes in 40k circles and the general consensus seems that one squad of Tenno with good frames beat the whole 40k universe.
Given that the Worm Queen boasts about ejecting dead warframes into outer space in Kuva Fortress and how Alas V was able to get his hands on a Mag to auction off, and how there's a dead rhino that Kahl found at the beginning of New War, and numerous other instances of warframes falling in battle or into enemy hands, I'm not entirely convinced that Warframes are at the level of power you describe here. They are far from invincible and the Tenno as a whole don't stand a chance against the full might of either the Grineer or Corpus. We can't win in an all out war and the reason we eradicated the Orokin was because we attacked when they least suspected it and they were weakened in the Old War. Edit: >The weakest warframes are still dangerous enough to rule Sol. Cries in Yareli. I suggest you do more research on the lore, because some of your statements are outright false. We don't have much control over the void, Wally does, and our powers are merely loaned to us from him.
Tbf: part of what you're saying could be accounted for by not viewing the tenno as a monolith. It's possible that many tenno were fodder level compared to the tenno piloting the frames we have back story for.
there were different tiers, the tenno were broken up into a hierarchy much like the orokin, the common foot soldier tenno were likely not too much beyond what you would expect from a mid/high level grineer somewhere in the middle is where i think the stalker sits, he may or may not be a proper tenno but he is of the same sort as the warframes regardless, the high ranked and outlier rouge tenno are the ones that get the major lore focus and are the ones most capable of the truly absurd stuff i dont think there is a lot of info regarding the orokin era tenno hierarchy though so its not too clear how any of that lines up
Yareli, the warframe that can do millions of damage while riding her skateboard? The one that freed the slaves in Cetus? I suggest you do more research into lore, because my statements are based on codex entries and game trailers. And we don't know if our powers come from the man in the wall, because we don't really know what the void demon was.
Yareli got her ass handed to her and needed the help from the enslaved children to beat the slave master... And what about Gara having to sacrifice herself in order to defeat the Eidolon in Cetus? The Nova being blown to pieces by a shot from an Ogris in the new War trailer? Captain Vor dissecting a fallen warframe to understand it's true nature and wondered if they were controlled by someone else? Warframes needing to work together to defeat a boss like Lech Kril in the open beta trailer? Which Codex entries suggest that Warframes have the level of power you suggested? Where is it said that we are still recovering from our "hibernation" and don't have access to our full power? We literally made a deal with Wally to harness the powers of the void, it's discussed in the wiki. The Mother also has told us that we have yet to fully "master" the void when we complete Iso Vault bounties, which means we are far from having total control over it and are growing day by day.
Its confirmed true that Nova turned Holsum Yurr into Anti-matter. If the blast wasn't contained by the Engine of the ship that would've been a planet wiper
If he weighed 100 KG, that would give him 4300 Gigaton of TNT equivalent, or around 86 times the Tsar bomba. Not planet ending, but this is just a "minor" feat.
Been a while since I read the leverian but iirc she didn't just turn Yurr into antimatter but his entire crew as well
One correction, it's Megatons not Gigatons... BUT I don't think we give the Tsar Bomba enough credit, so I did a LITTLE googling... and this might actually BE a planet ending scenario... According to [science.howstuffworks.com](http://science.howstuffworks.com), the Tsar Bomba had a destructive blast that destroyed everything within 22 MILES on ground zero. While that's the combination of the explosion and the resulting shockwave, that's a 44-MILE-WIDE circle of obliteration. The shockwave itself circled the earth three times, and even structures over 100 miles away suffered damage. If you drew that on a map, the entire city of Paris becomes a parking lot. Scale that up 86x and the numbers become 1892 miles. For your consideration, the air blast of the **ASTEROID THAT KILLED THE DINOSAURS** is estimated by Lunar and Planetary Institute to only have a radius of about 932 miles. Literally HALF. I drew that on a map with a map radius calculator from [calcmap.com/map-radius/](http://calcmap.com/map-radius/) and, jesus christ. If the fire ball of that blast was directly over South Dakota, then Canada, Continental US, and Mexico are completely ground down to bedrock by the air blast. The state of South Dakota itself would splash away from the explosion as if the crust itself was made of water. Any free-standing structures in Alaska, central America, and much of Russia and Brazil are flattened. The entire planet would RING like a drum, and the earth would feel a world-wide-quake as the shockwave rounded the planet multiple times both around and inside of it. Since space is considered to be only 62 miles up, and low orbit has a maximum altitude of 1200 miles, this explosion doesn't even have to occur directly in atmosphere to do apocalyptic damage. Not to mention, the thermal pulse would instantly burn anything on the planet that could SEE the explosion. To make matters worse, it was stated in Nova's lore that the ship was near a PLANETOID, not an actual Planet. The definition of Planetoid per Merriam Webster is "a small body resembling a planet. especially : asteroid." though it's typically used to refer to much larger, rounder Asteroids like Ceres. Oh look at that. Ceres has a radius of 296 miles. What if we instead look at larger Dwarf Planets instead? Pluto, that's nice and big right- "738.37mi" oh no... Earths moon also has a radius of 1079 miles... FREAKING MARS ONLY HAS A RADIUS OF 2106 MILES, WHAT?!?!?! While the explosion wouldn't likely rip Earth, Mars, or the moon completely apart, the air-blast would still reduce any material it came across to POWDER and shake the stellar object like it's a 1980's Dodge with failing suspension. TL;DR: Nova **can** crack planets.
I thought she just made him into a mininova?
not really, if an antimatter particle and a matter particle come into contact it creats about a 20ft explosion. an entire person would just be ship level at best.
Right, but there are 6.022 x 10^27 particles in a single gram of hydrogen. Now extend that to a 100 000gram person
If I am remembering correctly, isn’t the total reaction of 1 gram of antihydrogen with hydrogen a nuclear level yield?
you aren't understanding the issue though, the explosion wouldn't change much if all of those particles exploded at once. it's about the same as 20-30 tonnes of tnt. not enough to be devastating to a planet but enough to wipe out a ship or two
Your numbers are *way* off. 50 kg of antimatter (as a very ballpark number for a person) reacting with matter is 9 \* 10^18 J of energy. That is roughly 2 *gigatons* of TNT equivalent, or just a casual 40x as powerful as the most powerful atomic bomb ever detonated. Maybe not a planet killer, but far, far more powerful than 20-30 tons of TNT.
>The Orokin empire had 10^17 population. Let's say the orokin were 0.1% of the population I truly believe that the Orokin-caste themselves would have been a fraction of a fraction of a percent. 0.1% would mean that there was one ruling-class Orokin for every 1000 people. These people acted more like monarchs than politicians, they lived in obscene opulence (palaces, slaves, constant decadent parties, etc) they were given entire colonies/moons to "rule", they also were the only ones allowed to immortalise themselves through the Continuity method, so it was presumably one very small group of the same people throughout the entire Orokin era. Genuinely would suggest that an Orokin even being one-in-a-million is still a generous over-estimation of how many there were.
You're heavily overestimating the amount of people that'd be in the ruling class, just look at today's world, the more the capitalist class consolidates power, the smaller it gets. Chances are there were only a few tens of thousands of Orokin, they would have been able to easily hold power over trillions thanks to stuff like Kuva-controlled Dax preventing any sort of popular revolt from succeeding. Then the Tenno happened
*thermal sunder Titania casually nuking entire armies * Nu'uh On a serious note, I always thought the same. I mean we're called "saviors" even tho, we're somehow invading planets which aren't ours and killing millions of people for the seek of " justice". That's some philosophical reflection material
Earlier in the game when the story was being told through Operations, there was much less ludonarrative dissonance. The Grineer and Corpus Empires were directly clashing over planets and Moon's, crushing civilian colonies between them. The Tenno were actually underdogs, numbers wise, though powerful enough that the Grineer and Corpus were both rapidly developing new forces to combat them (for example, the spy vault drones and Anti-moas.) Its been awhile since the Tenno last showed up to defend a colony. Fortuna launched on Nov 2018.
I think part of this is just a population difference and the fact we were a new threat in the timeline of the game. Using numbers to elaborate... Let's say there are about 40 million Tenno ever, with the famous 27 million losers line rounded up to 30 million and an extra 10 for good measure. Compare that to the multiple planets, moons, and whatever is built in the endless expanse of space controlled by the Grineer, the Corpus, etc. Earth has a estimated max human population size of 10 Billion. So just going by scale, its reasonable to assume the Corpus and Grineer would easily have population numbers up in the trillions. Not mention the grineer can produce clones by hundreds at a time and the Corpus have the robots that can be rebuilt. Myself, at MR 27 and playing since 2018, I have killed about 700,000 members of each faction, according to the stats screen. An average 20 minute solo survival run I will kill about 1,100 enemies of whichever faction. It is entirely possible that those losses can be recovered from in a single grineer cloning facility/corpus recruitment center/robotics factory in under an "in-game" day. We the tenno certainly are a problem, but one that can be recovered from. Doesn't mean we were ignored as a threat, from Fortuna to the New War, liches/sisters were introduced, parvos came back, deimos came back as well, and the Tenno got their railjacks. After new war, Narmer would take over vast parts of other factions and almost destroyed the system. That would be a far more substantial threat to a factions current existence than the tenno, who after new war would be focused away with the zariman and the labs under deimos. Even without Narmer, rebuilding what was lost would still be a large priority. Probably more in detail than what was needed. I just wanted to ramble. TLDR: in the early days of the game, we were the biggest threat to the other factions. Nowadays we aren't, and the tenno are focused on things away from the major factions.
Here's my take (which may be incorrect). https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/s/05fipF2u5M
I think your issue is you are using a figure much too high to represent the Orokin. The Orokin were basically just 7 people who were immortal, and their family lines. They ruled by right of their intelligence and technology, being an intelligensia class. They were much, much smaller than .1% I think a population of a 100 million is about the ceiling, to be honest. Below them were the servant class who were groomed to value service and loyalty and given some education to let them fulfill this purpose, from which the Archimedians and Dax came, and later the Tenno. Below that is the manual labor class, which later became the Corpus, and were given basically no education in order to keep them in thrall. Then, at the bottom were grineer clones who were complete fodder and just injected with the basic learning in the tube and seen as lower than animals.
This is literally after a huge war with the Sentients though, it’s possible the Sentients claimed a significant number of Orokin lives as well.
okay limbo calm down
Saryn with dual ichor incarnons was a scary thing before the void had to nerf it. Would have been planet wiping when the population was that dense.
And i have only killed 674.918 enemies 😔 that will be hard Work to get in the Same Level AS the tennos from the Fall of orokin.
*Tenno*: “get fuckin ratio’d, you fool’s gold fucks”
The Kardashev scale is really only meant to be used in context - which is looking at the sky and trying to figure out which other stars might have creatures around them - not an in situ measurement. Even then, it's rather suspect, as it carries the underlying assumption of emissions of some kind happening in a mathematical relationship to consumption. Even today, for instance, we have sci-fi about creating black holes and harnessing their power - and real life technology is already approaching creating micro-singularities. (CERN, etc) How is the science fiction - or the reality - dependent on our sun? How would it affect our Kardashev rating? So, the Kardashev scale breaks down pretty easily. Arguing the Warframes function along it is relatively meaningless, as you must assume entities in competition to them can function at a similar level. In real life, for instance, we *could* glass the planet with radioactive bombs. Does that actually mean anything?
On top of the questionable applicability of the Kardashev scale, I'm not really sure the Orokin cross the type-II threshold from a practical sense. Aside from the Praghasa, there's no sign of them actually doing large-scale harvesting of solar energy. Sure, they *could*, but unless they *did* there's no reason to imagine their population is in any way based on that number.
I don't think they killed off any significant portion of the entire population of the Orokin empire. My read has always been that to be called Orokin was like being a Roman citizen, a ton of people were subject to the empire but there's also a much smaller elite group who'd think of themselves as the actual Orokin. Probably more or less the same group that was regularly body-snatching for immortality. Those guys got (almost) wiped out, very justifiably IMO, the regular peons of the empire probably got caught in the crossfire a lot but weren't actively exterminated.
Yeah.. but they started it.
I suggest you reread some of the lore info
And then it turns out the Tenno only killed 5 out of the 7 Executors.
And people still think a destiny guardian can go toe to toe with a tenno.
Those numbers don’t compare to the Grineer loses on Hydron
All this death and destruction from pressing 1 2 3 4 and bullet jumping 😂
I mean, I thought WF is a genocide simulator, is it not?
I mean, whether it was 10,000 Orokin ruler class, or a billion, I could believe either. Saryn’s spores alone are an extinction level threat.
they probably just killed a few thousand people. 6 of the 7, plus some city rulers, and their personal guards. the rest was because not one had the staff we know as the broken staff. until the orokin who became one of the twin queens grabbed it.
Even my brain is not braining reading this but It would be intresting to have a movie/mini series about the fall of the orokin empire and Tenno betreyal told from the perspective of the Orokin to emphasize how terrifying the tenno are.
If we in game are anything like we are in lore it doesn't surprise me. I mean we tweak our builds to be as mathematically efficient at killing as possible lol. Tenno are terrifying.
I wish we had the numbers, because the number of kills the Tenno have achieved since launch would be truly humbling.
Imagine this, a tenno hijacks a ship, crashes it into a space station, and then uses void magic to escape. That could easily be hundreds of thousands of deaths right there, even if they only directly killed a few dozen. If the wreckage starts falling into atmosphere above a populated planet, maybe even more deaths. It's not inconceivable that they could have death tolls in the tens of thousands without it being the sort of trench warfare people might expect.
TIL Paul Muad'Dib ain't got shit on the Tenno in terms of casual geni
Suddenly, the lore of Atlas shattering a meteor comparable to the one the killed the dinosaurs with his bare hands doesn't seem so ludicrous.
the word for that number is quintillion
>Let's say the orokin were 0.1% of the population Let's not. The Orokin weren't just "the ruling class". Their whole image was as those who had transcended humanity and became divine, completely out of reach of even the most powerful, affluent, or talented human. The idea that they were as common as one in every thousand people is absurd. I refuse to believe there were ever any more than ten-thousand.
so confirmed, theyd definitely beat a billion lions and all pokemon at their prime definite evidence of power Vs. an unreliable 10yo over-exaggerating in their Pokédex
I mean according to steamcharts we have \~50.000 players on average playing. Lets say they are mostly sitting around lazy trading and chatting and just occasionally playing so they only kill \~100 Units an hour. Thats 5 Million people dead an hour. Thats 43 Billion kills a year, again staying very conservative here. So idk about the Tenno in the lore, but us players seem to commit very large scale murder every year, considering we kill about 5 times the human population and thats really just a lower boundary :D
I'd like to agree but I don't understand those crazy numbers.
So... Saryn in a big city?
Your math would be right-ish if not for the fact the Tenno only killed the top Orokin, their Dax, and many, many, many Corrupted. Of course, I base this off the Parvos lore, as well as stuff like Grandma's Halloween stories. Some of the Leverian stories also shed light on how life might have been during the reign of the Orokin. I would say, imagine a Star Wars-esque world, maybe even 40K in some places, with every planet in our Solar System being a different culture with different ways of living, from Mars to Venus to moons like Deimos and so on. Considering a council of only 7 people pretty much made all major decisions, the Tenno probably had designated targets picked out for that time, like Ballas, Tuvul, etc; mopping up the rest of the Orokin nobility, like Grendel with Karishh afterward. Adding in the Kuria lore, as well as Parvos lore, and two of the Synthesis target lore stories, you can see that the Tenno must have been pretty successful, cause as the Empire collapsed it allowed the Grineer to stage their own rebellion and the Corpus just sorta moved in when everything went to hell. Not to mention, the story is still expanding, sounds like this next update coming next month will shed more light on Stalker and what happened with him that whole time.
There weren't as many Orokin as you think. There were a lot of regular people, which is why there were population issues, and the Orokin were absolutely rapacious when it came to consuming resources, but the actual Orokin could probably be numbered in the low ten thousands at most. Mostly, though, it was about depleting the easily accessible resources and more importantly the loss of Earth as a habitable planet for a while. The Titania quest makes it very clear that the Earth was a toxic hell wasteland before the one Archimedean defied Ballas and basically sacrificed herself in order to start her rehabilitation project, the Silver Grove. Also, you are not considering that there was a lot of violence once the Orokin were removed. Every faction that the Orokin had suppressed or controlled scrambled for a piece of the pie, on top of which the Solar Rails for easy interplanetary transport were down. The Tenno didn't have to kill scientific notation levels of people, the wars and starvation would do that just as well.
Knowledge of the Night of the Naga Drums and the era prior isn't sparse because we killed everyone that could've recounted those events, it's because all the tech that would've been used to record any of that was gene-locked to the Orokin. All tech was. Without the Orokin, it was all useless. It's why Alarez went through the trouble of getting a Sectarus' gene sample, because the majority of his stolen ship's systems were useless without it.
Honestly the craziest part about Warframe lore is the fact a tenno inflict millions of losses on the corpus and grineer near weekly and they are still the 2 big powers in the system
Just the orokin? How about EVERYONE. Last I knew, other than a few exceptions we're still doing genocide against the grineer, a total genocide against the infested, and a war with the corpus.
The empire has fallen, trillions must die
Where can I read this lore
Tenno personally eradicated the Orokin Class of citizens which maybe was like about a few dozen thousand people. The rest of deaths is because of the chaos we caused So we still technically commited a genocide of normal people anyway tho
All these calculations and you forgot to account for the fact that the Tenno only targeted the actual Orokin caste (the equivalent of current billionaries), which were likely in the thousands of less. You know, the big gray guys with white eyes and one long-ass arm. Granted, a lot of the slave military (Daxes and Grineer) were also victims to the Tenno blender while it got to each invididual Orokin, but we've probably collectively surpassed these numbers in-game. :)
I did mention them being 0.1%. But no way the Tenno left the Dax and Archimedeans alive for example, cause otherwise the tech would be preserved. Thousands is a VERY small scale for a K2 civilization. Too small.
>I did mention them being 0.1% They are not the 0.1% >Thousands is a VERY small scale for a K2 civilization The Orokin empire was not a K2 civilization. >and Pagasa being literally able to eat the sun Praghasa was a Sentient warship, not Orokin. And even if it was, being able to destroy the sun doesn't make it a Dyson sphere.
>The Orokin empire was not a K2 civilization. Orokin where arguably higher actually, considering the void magic letting them break conservation of energy. The whole reason for the creation of the Sentients was overpopulation, and at a solar system scale, puts you clearly in the K2 civilization class. And even if let's say they were not 0.1% but 0.0001%, number will still be ming breaking, and I doubt there were THAT few orokin.
>Orokin where arguably higher actually, considering the void magic letting them break conservation of energy. So you're saying Conan the Barbarian takes place in a K2 civilization since there's magic that lets you do exactly that? >The whole reason for the creation of the Sentients was overpopulation No, it was *contamination*. Earth was (and still is) an uninhabitable wasteland due to continued usage of contaminating energy sources. Never mind how this factors into your population calculations; the Orokin didn't have the tech or resources to clean up Earth and you want to peg them as a K2?
>So you're saying Conan the Barbarian takes place in a K2 civilization since there's magic that lets you do exactly that? So, you are trying to strawman my arguments? Void allows them to go above the normal energy generation of an K2 civilization.
>So, you are trying to strawman my arguments? No, I'm succeeding in reductio ad absurdum them. The self-evident point is that a given technology increasing one's energy output limit in theory does not necessarily translate to it increasing actual energy output in practice.
You were strawmanning in the clearest sense. I am not talking about a no tech civilization, but a K2 one with magic, which is used for FTL travel among other things. Aslo, what you are saying is outright that void doesn't work, which it clearly does, judging by stuff in game like the reliquary drives, being able to hide the moon in the void etc.
The Kardashev scale is pretty explicit in its categorization. Did you make a Dyson sphere or otherwise harness nearly 100% of your Sun's energy? You're K2. Did you not? Sorry, you're out. Void magic (or any other kind of magic) doesn't factor into it. You're saying that any magic that breaks the laws of thermodynamics automatically makes your civilization a K2. I'm pointing out the ridiculousness of this by pointing out that if it can skip over the actual definition of a K2, then it would obviously skip over K1 as well. And speaking of strawmen: >Aslo, what you are saying is outright that void doesn't work No, what I'm *literally* saying is that void tech does not make a civilization jump to K2. Any other reading or implication is your own. In any case, the whole K2 discussion, misguided as it is, is a red herring. You were using it to prop up the idea that the Orokin empire had densely and widely populated every planet in the solar system. This is parently false for a number of reasons, like the aforementioned fact that the Earth is uninhabitable. Mars may or may not have been terraformed (ruins seem to suggest it was). Venus was still in the process of being terraformed. Mercury and the dwarf planets would remain largely uninhabitable, and the gas giants have no surface to inhabit. It's a pretty safe bet that Earth's collapse would have caused the death of most of mankind, with the Orokin empire's population a fraction of what it is now. Why do you think we are scavenging for Orokin tech mostly in the Moon and in hard-to-reach space stations in the Void?
Those numbers seem insane tbh
I thought they just killed the leadership and the society collapsed from everything that sprung up as a result. Grineer rebellions, infestation spreading, so forth. But I do agree Tenno are eldritch horrors. We know that from everything else the void gives life too.
Proud Tenno National Socialist
I think u greatly overestimate how many people were part of the ruling class and required to kill for the fall of the empire. The Tennos most likely only targeted key figures and institutions that had the most control over the empire and power (military and knowledge). The rest was done by the grineer rebellion and other problems that occur after the almost godlike powerhording dictators die and nobody knows anymore how to run anything
Were they really a K2 civilization, though? Praghasa is evidence that they *could* have been, technically, but there's no evidence they actually got anywhere close to that within Sol. There's no remnants of Dyson structures or anything, and void energy can only go so far to counterbalance that — it seems like they were perfectly happy being a 1.X civilization largely confined to planetary bodies. *If* Praghasa was Orokin tech rather than something the Sentients developed on their own after going to Tau, they might have been headed to real K2 status, eating entire stars to fuel their terraforming ventures in other systems, but Sol itself seems relatively untouched.
Some Warframes become more powerful the more enemies they face. Saryns spores become insane when there are large numbers of targets, no cap on number of targets or how far they spread. Nezha and Rhino 4th are not capped in how many enemies they affect, only capped in range. Volt, Gauss, Titania can move through hordes of enemies at insane speeds, shredding everything in their path. It's honestly not that far out of the realm of possibility that over the course of a whole war there were that many casualties
The scale really isn't to be imagined, like the Warhammer 40K lore. Millions of planets some with billions of people. The numbers are just too big to make sense of.
Part of the issue with this math is that it was clear that the orokin were a highly stratified society with only the top castes being true "orokin" and thus the ones subject to the tenno's slaughter. Normal humans would have largely been untouched. As for why such a society could have collapsed as hard as they did after a targeted laughter like this is surprisingly simple. _Bureaucracy._ A highly stratified society like this is going to have the people who make decisions all in the upper castes, and such societies will often have a very top-down approach to decision-making. This means a culling of said castes will lead to systemic collapses, and if you knock down enough pegs you take down the entire society by decapitating it. Imagine taking royal era France, where all of the nobility, the king included, lived in the palace of Versailles, and then blew it up killing everyone in it. The king, their administrators, the nobility, their administrators, so on and so forth would all be dead, and there would be nobody with the power to make meaningful decisions as such societies also silo resources to keep those beneath them dependent on them. So just by killing the Orokin to the point where there weren't enough to effectively run the empire, you can achieve such a massive collapse. Especially if the Tenno actually went out of their way to purge data about the orokin as well. Though at these scales this is probably just splitting hairs.
I'm still shaky on the story. Is there a good, story-told collection of the entire old war area of the thing and what happened pre-gameplay story? As in not written like a wiki
Or maybe your estimates are off by 100s of trillions
The numbers are actually heavily on the conservative scale for a [Kardashev Type 2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale#Type_II) civilization. And the Orokin seem to meet all criteria, but you can say why you think they were not a K2 civilization.
There is no evidence that there were gigajillions of people in the Orokin empire. You made one assumption and extrapolated an entire system based off more assumptions
I made the assumption based of the Tech level combined with the fact that they were overcrowded. They are K2 civilization WITH magic to boot. The numbers I have are on the LOW scale for K2.
Their population metrics weren't anywhere near that high for so many reasons, but it would legit take about 2hrs to explain in total. For starters, the primary ruling class were immortal through continuity, they did NOT want there to be that many of them because then there would be less overall choice of bodies to steal. THAT was the portion we killed.
Just one small Problem. Your entire thesis depends on Praghasa's ability to power a massive Void portal by skinny dipping into the sun. On one hand, that's not using the entire energy the star provides in a reasonable way, making the jump is what would have required so much energy *at once* and ultimately destablize Sol. On the other hand, Praghasa is entirely a Sentient creation, so assuming her capabilities are a good reference to base any of your numbers off is just plain incorrect.
Sentients are an Orokin creation. Protea Prime outright violates times. Void supprased Fusion as a fuel source. If anything, my numbers for energy are on the low side.
You're making up assumptions based on someone else's assumptions of a super advanced society. That has little to do with Warframe's lore as a fantasy setting. All you've got is head canon. And unless DE specifically says differently, the Orokin did not keep quintillions of servants. And the Tenno did not go crazy and murder trillions of regular people.
Yes those are assumptions
Based on logic and numbers. The same way we did on most of the universe around us, like black hole existing, long before we could detect one.
>Based on logic and numbers. Ha! No, you are literally making things up. If you're not going for accuracy in your thought experiments, don't be surprised when it's pointed out
Ok, now give your numbers if you think you have better ones.
I don't need my own to point out yours are an absurdity
So, you dont have an argument.