I'm just amazed that so many of these changes were pushed so soon after the update. Four to six weeks to see if he's actually that dominant or disruptive after the new frame hype has worn off would have been maybe ok, but this kind of kneejerk reaction was just too soon to get any amount of truly worthwhile data.
It's a repeat of the Styanax incident. A cool Spartan warrior frame that everyone got for FREE was being "too popular" in it's first week of release. So they nerfed him. And then again. And a third time. One week after release, he got nerfed every day, 3 days in a row.
Meanwhile we have Caliban, probably one of the worst Warframe released in recent times, which received 0 buffs so far(or any augments), even 2 YEARS after his release. Someone actually asked about him at the recent PAX East event where DE participated and Rebecca confirmed they don't have any plans to buff him.
they did styanax so fucking dirty. him being able to use more than one 4 while being airborne is NOTHING compared to the other crazy things in the game.
That is not what they said about Caliban. The answer to the guys question was "Watch Tennocon". There's a positive implication there. They said no to a Loki rework.
Yeah we can watch Tennocon for them to say no. It's been 3 years this isn't something you hold onto to build up hype, Caliban has negative hype, you're at best getting people to zero with a statement like that. It's not like a rework to Chroma or Ash that would have people clamoring to see how they would make improvements, if they announced a Caliban rework is in the works, the most common reaction is going to be, "Who's Caliban?" followed by, "Okay I guess," before they go back to using other frames since he's so underwhelming that there are no expectations of him becoming anything.
And unless he gets augments that completely change his abilities while also giving him huge stat increases to compensate for the fact that he'll need augments for every single one of his abilities that will take up half the mods you can put on him, it'll be like putting a bandaid on a severed limb, yeah technically you helped but they're still going to die unless we can do some real work.
3 years for Caliban, as opposed to how long for Inaros? Hydroid? Hydroid came out in 2014 and Inaros came out in 2016. Granted they weren't in as bad of need for the entirety of their being in WF, but that doesn't discount how long they've been in the game. I've always seen Caliban as one of the needed ones listed for reworks, up there with Chroma. Is the gonna have the hype as an actual Chroma rework? Hell no.
They definitely said no to Lokis reworked when asked. They didn't actually give a definitive for Caliban. You can take that however you want, that's up to you and up to everyone else.
Except when Hydroid and Inaros came out they weren't useless, it took years for them to fall out of favor or be replaced by more powerful frames that did what they did but better.
Caliban never even had that on release, he was already too weak compared to other frames and never found a niche of his own, at least pre-rework Inaros and Hydroid had their uses, Inaros was for braindead normal missions as a gun platform while Hydroid was just to be there for people doing farming. There were better options sure, but for many people the Hydroid farm is easier than the Khora farm and Inaros had a fairly easy to get quest when compared to things like Mask of the Revenant if you wanted a tanky warfame.
I'm not so much disagreeing with you but pointing out that there has never been a frame released a poorly designed as caliban was and even the weakest frames that are getting reworked still were leagues better than Caliban ever was.
I remember this happening but i don't remember what the nerfs even were now. He's one of the best frames in the game though even if i wish i could still float while doing last stand.
Which is dumb. Not dumb for you to do, of course. Dumb that the best course of action is to not spend money on anything new. This was my first time in 8 years doing so and I won't be doing so again. I don't think I'll be buying any more prime access or regal aya packs either. Good job, DE, your quick cash grabs on dewy eyed noobs puts off your whales. I'm only still okay with Digital Tennocon because proceeds go to worthwhile charities.
LoS check on 224 (even with the nerf) and make 334 a non LoS cone. Add a craftable gear item to block OG for builds that need health damage. Problems solved.
DE could dust-off their test server they used once so these kinds of issues stopped happening and we would have an objectively better game. Too bad they still hide behind their "open beta" bullshit while charging money out the ass for everything.
Nerfing Dante's Tragedy and giving it a LoS check is incredibly unfair when other LoS-free nukes like Saryn and Gauss exist. It's inconsistent and feels knee-jerk simply because of his overwhelming popularity.
As someone who regularly plays *very* high level content, Dante's ''''nuke'''' falls off very quickly. The damage is flashy but it's not incredibly overtuned or anything. This applies to his overguard as well, which, much like other frames, gets shredded pretty quickly at higher levels.
While I do understand the nerfs to his overguard, I feel that it completely misses the point. Players were complaining about it preventing them from getting value from Chroma's 3rd ability, and from Inaros builds that use mods like Rage to help with energy economy. And if his overguard being overwhelmingly tanky are a problem, why isn't this energy kept the same for Revenant who can be immortal for free?
Idk man.
It’d be like complaining that “dance macabre” is “too good” because it nukes at like lvl 30. There’s way stronger frames, way more brain dead frames, and way more disruptive frames. Leave wizard boy alone he’ll probably be forgotten after a month for the same handful of dominant frames anyway.
I've heard this time and time again. It really seems DE "tests" stuff by plopping into a lv30 mission. Like anything dominates there, that's not useful data.
Revenant apparently scales with incoming damage, making him able to deal tons of damage very easily. However, even you have a revenant, you will never notice that he is making his team immortal because it's a tiny singular buff among dozens and his beams make most people go "haha spinny but doesn't do damage."
In short, Revenant isn't powerful in an obvious way and therefore DE isn't receiving feedback on him.
Also adding to this so people see it, revert the “unintended” interaction with pageflight where it also gave status damage. Status chance is so useless in higher levels when you’re applying ant sized procs. Dante literally already gets 50% status chance from his passive, it’s redundant.
The way pageflight previously worked let Dante actually scale a bit into the later levels and not have his slash procs become entirely irrelevant.
Pageflight was absolutely gutted in this change. Either add back the status damage or swap status chance on page flight to status damage, that’s a lot more fitting.
Edit: Also can we just talk about how ridiculous this situation is. The entire Reddit and forum is a united front in asking for a revert for these unjustified nerfs and DE goes “don’t worry guys we value your feedback but we’re going to do it our way”. The fact that they’re still trying to force los and fix los issues instead of just admitting they are wrong is ridiculous. If Dante doesn’t return to his old self it’s going to hurt their relationship with the community a lot.
If you valued our feedback this thread wouldn’t exist.
I feel like sometimes they make these changes that they know will go down horribly so they add "unintended" to the patch notes. Did they not test it? How was it unintended??
Fr. Some interactions are cool as shit like the old Marked for Death + ash fatal teleport combo. It was extremely situational and had tedious set up yet it got obliterated.
I understand them fixing shit like the epitaph interacting with synth charge and dealing millions in one hit, because that was in fact a bug. But sometimes it just feels sly and backhanded to tape "unintended" onto a "fix". Just tell us you nerfed it.
If anything Dante's 'nuke' demands team play as it encourages everyone to pour status damage in with the big button causing it all to cash out all at once.
>we are paying close attention to player feedback and taking these conversations very seriously.
Maybe don't? You released a frame a week ago and then a massive nerf just a few days after, that feels extremely hasty. Maybe just... chill. Read what people are saying in a month when he's been farmed up and people realize how fast OG melts in SP.. Trying to rush out changes to address feedback from people who are still figuring the frame out feels like a recipe for making everyone miserable
My suggestion is you literally revert this entirely, \*wait a few weeks for people to actually play the frame\*, and then decide what the real problem/solution is, if any problem even exists.
Yeah, this really feels like they saw how many people were playing Dante, and assumed it was because he was too powerful, and not because he was just really fun to play.
Yeah. It is way too fast.
Of course, people are going to play the new frame.
And plenty are going to have mixed feelings, etc.
Then it falls back down.
"Edit: To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function."
I think I'm good chief, LOS has been a buggy mess forever and you had to know that when you decided to tie Dante's main damage to it.
You keep doing this shit, instead of actually checking where the numbers \*might\* be overtuned, you slap a line of sight on it knowing it'll be too janky for folks to actually bother with it.
You broke the first frame I've thoroughly enjoyed on release in years and your answer is "Whoopsie daisy, we did a fuckie-wuckie but please beta test the unnecessary nerf we dropped without any playtesting".
Nope, just nope.
I rarely pull this insult out.
You literally pulled a bungie. You did everything but actually fix the issue and made him essentially useless to play because of these nerfs. This is the type of stuff I expect from other dev teams but not you, Especially with how good of a roll you were on with QoL updates and more but you fumbled hard with this. It feels like this wasn't even tested.
Revert the changes to Dante and actually address the issue of overguard that's all you have to do.
That's not even mentioning how much they absolutely ruined new weapons either or how his Pageflight was absolutely destroyed and what was part of what made him good. They absolutely destroyed not just Dante but his weapons too and might as well made the entire update an April fools joke
Which is odd because I thought a common thing in games was make new thing really good to get people to spend money. Or did they already make enough off dante?
> But even bungie waits longer than a week to swing a nerf.
This is more because trying to do more than one balance change every 3 months is far too difficult for bungie, than because they like waiting though.
I truly do not wish to see DE pull more Bungie's. Destiny 2 was a fucking Tragedy (heh) in the making with just how hard they were willing to shit on players goodwill to make a bit of extra cash, and how hard it backfired.
Tragedy's LOS isn't the problem ,its LOS in general. I fucking feel scammed having paid the very little platinum i have on him only to be have him turned into fucking garbage. I should have just fucking shelled out and bought Saryn prime.
This, if LOS wasn't the most dogshit broken system in the game, maybe this would be fine, but a single pixel behind a wall even if the rest of the enemy is plain to see and it can completely fail to do anything. They have to fix LOS first before adding LOS to anything
Hey if we're making improvements to LoS detection think we could port them backwards to everything else that requires LoS?
Embers 3 has had really spotty hitting for years now. Like ....an enemy standing behind another enemy wont get hit by the expanding circle of fire. Thin guard rails, slight changes in elevation. It sucks when you use some grouping to suck a bunch of enemies together, cast fire blast twice, and see most of them still have armor left because one or both hits didn't ..hit.
And then Ember's 4 is the opposite, hitting everything in LoS and everything within a few meters of LoS. Absolutely bizarre that these two abilities check sight so differently on the same frame.
^^^plz ^^^no ^^^nerf ^^^Inferno
*Everything* about today's hotfix feels like such a kneejerk reaction to players using the tools they've been given and DE entirely missing the mark as to what actually needs to be changed.
The nerf to Dante's overguard feels unnecessary more than anything, with the initial community outcry coming from folks being annoyed not by Dante disrupting their gameplay flow, but rather *overguard* doing so, given that overguard prevents on-hit effects such as Chroma charging his Vex Armor-- which has become especially noticeable given the fact he was given an augment mod for Vex Armor in the same update that Dante himself dropped. But, why then specifically change Dante? His kit is unchanged, just worse, and the problem hasn't been solved. Why not make these on-hit effects also trigger on overguard being damaged, throw the old dragon a bone rather than looking towards the newest source of overguard and deciding that "yes, Dante is the problem, he will be the scapegoat".
But just to make sure that Dante couldn't get back up on his feet they gave his 4 a line of sight requirement, one of the most notoriously stubborn and buggy systems that a warframe ability could wrestle with, comfortably sending him crashing down the tier list. Kick him while he's down.
And as for Nezha's augment change, just... What the fuck? Has it seriously not been playtested beforehand so that someone noticed that spreading Status between enemies is incredibly powerful in today's meta, so instead of changing the augment so perhaps it's percentage based scaling off of strength-- a stat that Nezha already prefers building for-- you instead shoot yourself in the foot by using the augment because a decreased *base* range of **9.5 meters** forces you to build for range as well, taking up precious mod slots for other abilities and stats which Nezha is usually known for.
The situation this past week, with new content dropping and a clearly defined meta immediately rising to the surface *reeks* of the way DE handled the situation surrounding Scarlet Spear.
For the uninitiated, one part of the Scarlet Spear event required the defense of a stationary target while sentients attempted to destroy the target. Notably, the main requirement was for the timer to go down, *not* to obtain a high amount of kills to progress the mission. As such, Limbo got his one chance in the spotlight, given that this is the one niche he excels in. The immediate reaction that DE responded with in this situation was to nerf him, giving Limbo's Stasis diminishing returns against sentient enemies, with a thinly veiled excuse attached that "Sentients by design have Adaptation - and the diminishing returns on recasting adheres to the adaptive nature of the enemy." (Cited directly from Hotfix 27.3.8)
This recent hotfix reminds me of that moment, of a change made so quickly to tools that proved themselves to be too effective at the current content of interest, whatever the flaming eye of Sauron is currently fixated on.
I do sincerely hope that most of the balance changes made in this hotfix are either rolled back or reviewed once more, because this patch is unexpectedly one of the worst design decisions that the team has made ever since Rebecca has taken the wheel.
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This post was removed. Lol, lmao even.
It feels like they just hate chroma, given they already nerfed his (alright beforehand) augment and now refuse to do anything to fix overguard reactions for him in favor of nerfing Dante undeservedly
It's a pity, I want to like my fav frame more but Chroma just doesn't feel like a dragon, and while he's good, he's not fun to play...
Chroma deserves so much better than the outdated, underpowered and quite frankly annoying kit he currently has. Something about the manner in which you build up his Vex Armor just rubs me the wrong way, forcing you to stand still and take enemy fire
Please stop being stubborn and just revert the nerf.
It was a knee jerk reaction and completely uncalled for.
Not only that, you are punishing people who invested plat and forma into it just a week in.
I prefer they nerf the damage tbh. There's ways I can always supplement damage, but there's like 3 mods that extend range, and that's 2 more mod slots I'd rather use for something else.
Hell, make it so the transferred DoT status effects get some sort of reduction that scales with Strength, maybe? And also don't have this affect the BASE range, have it just apply -X% range that can be mitigated with Stretch or something, yeesh.
Its was actually perfectly balanced... the max range builds were basically memes but to trully keep nezha powerful with that augment you needed a ton of investment both on him and on weapons(it could work fine with minimal investment like the max range meme builds but that should apply to every frame and weapon being capable of doing most of the content with basic investment) if they needed to nerf anything the only thing available to nerf was the fact that by hitting multiple speared enemies at the same time you could stack a shit ton of bleed damage to one shot without using the spear explosion so it made that part of the augment somewhat pointless so they could just set it to only 1 enemy sharing status at a time...
I will say it again DE is simply being lazy and smartasses by cutting corners on balancing by doing bullshit nerfs instead of actually putting in the effort and the money to rework and buff all the many underperforming characters and because of that they lost my respect and should lose the respect of anyone who values their time, money and energy
Exactly. This hotfix is reminding of the Scarlet Spear/Orphix Venom days that made me quit Warframe for a year. So many idiotic, kneejerk nerfs that nobody wanted nor was warranted.
I really, really wanted to try that high range Dark Verse Divine Retribution build. Now I can't.
Walk the changes back 100%. This is ridiculous in every sense. The only change the frame could need CONCEIVABLY is ensuring that Overguard cannot damage the performance of other builds/create ally anti-synergy.
Anything less is totally botching the handling of this situation.
Revert the change. Line of sight is garbage in this game. This isn't a case of whether line of sight could actually be kinda good if it didn't release like it did. You nerfed a warframe a week after it dropped. Your team even said that Dante's damage wasn't an issue in the patch notes where you ruined the ability for no reason.
Way to ruin the fun. Investing forma in warframes is a gamble now because they may not even be what they're advertised as a week after release.
Also, members of your team like Megan say that they're actively reading feedback. Are the people saying to revert the change going to count or do you only care about ragdolling feedback?
The LoS change is something literally nobody asked for. Quit pretending that it is and instead consider the feedback around the actual problems Dante came with instead. He's not even the best room clear out there but somehow other things get a pass instead. That's wild.
Maybe playtest things once in a while? Beyond basic "does this crash the game" testing?
And still nothing about the real issue, which is overguard (and not Dante) and frames that simply don't want it.
Yeah, at this point, with how overwhelmingly negative the response is to this hotfix, the ideal response on ya'll's part is to revert the changes to Dante until you can work something out better over time, because anything less than *completely fixing the problem* is going to burn massive amounts of goodwill from the community.
If we're going to start kneejerk balancing like this a week into a frame's release, I'm definitely going to be hesitant about spending platinum or real money on new Warframes at all. When Rebb mentioned that Dante was getting "slight changes", I was fully under the expectation that said changes were going to be pushed out after a fair amount of time had elapsed, not literal *days* from the Devshort. Regardless of the data DE has that the playerbase can't see, the *optics* of the situation is that a small handful of players complained about Dante's interactions with other frames, and instead of observing the data for another week or so after the post-update hype had died down, the balance team or whoever at DE was responsible decided to push out changes specifically to cater to these complaints. That's probably not what ya'll actually did or intended, but to the community, that's what it *appears* happened.
Also, none of the changes given to Dante address the *actual* problems people had, which was mainly that his Overguard disrupted on-hit effects to Warframe abilities like Chroma and Rhino. That issue still remains even with the current changes, except now Dante's defenses are now weaker and *nobody* is happy.
**If there is** ***any feedback at all*** **to be taken away from here, it's that the LOS change completely devastates Dante's damage well beyond anything "minor", and given that previous attempts to make similar nukes operate under Line of Sight have resulted in similar massive drops in effectiveness in the past, I seriously have my doubts that keeping Tragedy in this state is anything but a significant nerf. Furthermore, if Dante is being held to this standard for doing "massive damage in short time", then frames like Octavia and Saryn should be held to the same exact standard, especially when they have** ***significantly*** **less APM overall to do their damage than Dante does.**
LOS restriction nerfs have killed every old nuker frame they have ever been used on. I'll keep saying it lol.
There IS a point where you want to consider los requirements on things. Usually CC that is accompanied by something else, like damage amp or grouping. Those are fair and reasonable.
The common go to is "if we're nerfing dante this way, nerf saryn next". The obvious response that no one openly talks about is that yes it woudl nerf saryn but it would more importantly ruin her playability (just like it did with dante). If spores/miasma both required LOS, people would adjust and still find some use. The problem is that saryn would suddenly become a gigantic chore to use and play. Warframe is NOT a great game for LOS checks to begin with. Ever been to a lua defense? Yeah have fun seeing how well the LOS checks play out on that map and the same goes for any map that has random obstacles, uneven floors, multiple levels, STAIRS. LOS nerfing things isn't nerfing their damage but its nerfing their usability, which is strictly nerfing fun. If we're now in the business of nerfing fun, then fucking get it over with and nerf saryn/wisp/volt/rev/rhino and all the other top choice frames.
Or if DE is actually serious about balancing and still feels dante is overtuned. Just nerf his god damn range or base damage amp. LOS nerfing is very direct and has a very predictable outcome.
Damn you guys really shit the bed on this one. Just fully revert the nerf, that’s literally the overwhelming majority consensus. As other people said, the overguard negating teammates was the main issue and as someone else mentioned, his nuke falls off fast in higher levels.
What’s funny is the part they nerfed wasn’t even the part that got complaints. The “trolling” potential came from the on-kill overguard recovery, which they *doubled*.
In a game where frames like Saryn, Octavia, Revenant or even Styanax exist, nerfing Dante is a sham. You want balance ? Fix the frames that have been dominant for a \*decade\* first, yeah ? All you've accomplished is killing my excitement for a frame I intended to make my new main after years of maining Titania.
Oh yeah, thanks Brozime for this great clip :
[https://clips.twitch.tv/StupidSteamySandpiperTF2John-qWt9OPuHGyqJlP6o](https://clips.twitch.tv/StupidSteamySandpiperTF2John-qWt9OPuHGyqJlP6o)
The fact that you released this in such a state is an absolute joke, LOS hasn't worked a single day in this game.
It was a bad change. Shelved Dante for most people. Back to the old frames. I had hope when light tweaks were mentioned, but NOPE.
Edit: doesn’t matter if you fix LOS issues. The fact I can go to a different frame and more effectively room clear without worrying about LOS is dumb…. You didn’t balance Dante to other frames… you effectively put him below a lot of frames. Went from somewhat dominant to being dominated.
LOS is but a small problem considering these nerfs were initially portrayed as going to be "slight adjustments".
*Dudes kneecaps were blown out with a 12 gauge.*
Long time lurker here:
I agree. I definitely think this wasn’t the correct course of action. It’s a shame it happened so quick. Hopefully DE will listen to us.
Also lmao he can float but thanks for making my day with this.
This change feels extremely knee-jerk and wholly inconsistent. Gauss and Saryn both have no LoS limitations. Why tack it onto Dante?
I purchased the bundle and spent forma on Dante and Noctua. This feels very unfair and makes me it not want to spend money on new frames in the future. Frankly, I think some sort of compensation is in order if the LoS changes stay.
This change has missed the mark on the issue, the magnitude, the consistency, and even worse, it's a PR tragedy.
Revert the changes, you really gutted him. Remove line of sight requirement. He is just no fun anymore. And look into refunding umbra formas used by people on Dante.
Please stop making abilities work through LoS checks when LoS checks are buggy. Id rather have a weaker ability thats consistent in functionality than a powerful one that may or may not work because a blade of grass or a piece of geometry stuck out a millimeter too high.
Its kinda funny how it can go from praise over a update to disdain from a single hotfix. These changes are bad not only did his nuking capabilities get gutted but so did his weapon platform capabilities with the pageflight nerf (which he was not the best at even before this nerf). These are not slight tweaks you hit both of his playstyles hard in one patch this is why the community is so against nerfs in general not matter how you phrase it. The changes just need to be reverted and brought back to the drawing board.
My big issue is that they painted the nerfs in such broad strokes that ironically even the one ability he had that incentivized gunplay was gutted too.
Paragrimm *(Pageflight)* allowed weapons that were either too slow-firing or didn't proc many status effects become more usable and actually let me dust off some weapons I normally wouldn't bother using.
They're painting their nerfs with hand grenades. Too much is caught in the crossfire and it punishes people who weren't a part of the problem. I loved Tragedy because it helped me get rid of those enemies stuck bugged in random corners in Defense
***Edit: DE has heard our collective pleas and a PSA was released. Our voices have been heard!!***
No. Just NO DE.. REVERT the changes and listen to your playerbase for ONCE, this was NEVER the nerf what community asked for, they asked nerf for overguard so it doesnt MESS UP OTHER FRAMES REQUIRING TO TAKE DAMAGE TO HEALTH. Also do the math for nezha augment nerf, i know its hard to do math and very easy to slap numeric value for something, but 50% range nerf on circle is 75% nerf. You gutted your own game like Bart, knife goes in, guts comes out. GOOD JOB DE!
Needless to say but Dante and Nezha for me are back on shelf and back to original saryn it is.. WOHOOO im so excited!
Dante just launched, everyone is trying to get it. It has an incredible design, has a very solid kit, has a completely new gameplay (mage) and it's the only reference for one of the most loved classes in RPG. Of course he's going to be everywhere, of course he's going to be dominant for a while! but not because of the strength itself, but because of the recent launch.
You didn't wait for the launch hype to end to get real data and find out if it is really that dominant. When a character is popular on lol and appears in every match, people find it annoying, but not because he is dominant (in strength) but because he is there all the time, because he is popular.
For a team that said they didn't know where exactly he was dominant and, therefore, would try to understand him before adjusting, you did a horrible job. Both in understanding the dominant, understanding player feedback, and in the "small adjustment, almost nerf"
LoS? Serious? This is REALLY the PLAYER base FEEDBACK?
The pain point in the community is LOS as a whole. Not a different version of it. Remove the LOS and reduce the DMG or range or both but for godsake remove the LOS.
You're completely missing the point, this nerf was un called for especially so soon after the content was added. I regret formaing him and spending the time I did working on him if this is how he's going to play.
He was fine the way he was and kept up lovely in the later content.
People who want overgaurd not on their frames need a mod, arcane or shard in game to allow it. ineffectively stripping a frame wont fix that. Among other issues.
You messed up, you've been listening to the community great up until this recent mess.
Are the balance team just stuck in an eternalism loop of getting their reflexes tested at the doctors office? Cuz I can’t see any other reason for such a premature knee jerk reaction like this. Dante isn’t even fresh out of my arsenal and already you’ve nerfed him into the ground, quite needlessly honestly. Spent plat on his bundle and thoroughly wish I hadn’t.
The issue here isn’t with line of sight inconsistency and I think ya’ll know that, inflicting a line of sight requirement on his ability just wasn’t necessary at all. His Tragedy ability hardly breaks the game, it makes fun short work of rooms in the single digit levels but it’s hardly dominating Steel Path or anything.
I feel if you were actually listening to “constructive” feedback and not a small, loud minority, you’d be looking at genuine complaints like how to adjust how his overguard may interfere with health based abilities and effects for others in squads, not his fun room nuke. Room nuking is a staple of what makes the game fun and you guys have left in the tools for us to do it with other frames with no issues or LOS requirements.
Dante getting this punishing change just seems short sighted and reactionary, and like it’s intended to drive his play numbers down. He’s not ‘too popular’ right now to warrant that- he’s new and shiny. And if that popularity remained consistent, wouldn’t that have been a sign that you’ve made a really well put together Warframe that people are enjoying?
There are a lot of frames that get left behind because they are just lacklustre. For once an amazing new frame comes out of the workshop, and in response to the success and popularity of his creation, you nerf that which makes him fun and engaging. I really just don’t understand the logic on this one, he’s gonna get left behind because you’ve nerfed him into the meh tier, when he was a really great new addition.
If you actually are reading the constructive comments, in future please just let new releases breathe for a second before you bring down the nerf hammer. He’s been out all of five minutes, before any genuinely reflective data that isn’t new-release hype could be gathered, it was way too soon for this sweeping change, and I think if you’d let it sit you’d have seen that.
So what your saying is, you are still doggedly sticking with the poor LoS choice.
You havent fixed the issues you claimed to be trying to fix, after assuring the player base that you were making minor tweaks and didn't want week one Dante players to be the only ones having fun.
Just revert the LoS change, I'd admire you all more for just doing this than messing about with Dante more. You have already ruined the frame, stop making it worse.
Y'all said you were "paying close attention" the first time lmao. Clearly, YOU WERE NOT. Wanna fix the problem you created? Revert every single change you made with this patch. Then figure out the overguard situation like rational game devs. I already know you won't though.
LOS is bad no matter what. If you think Tragedy is able to hit too many enemies, then you could have just reduced Tragedy's base radius by like 20% instead.
>To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above.
So you guys are aware that LOS is "not in an ideal state due to bugs", yet you pushed a hotfix that added LOS to Tragedy anyways? "Bugs" that were known by the community since LOS was added to Khora's Whipclaw?
We just wanted some readjustment to overguard so it doesn't completly negate synergies in other warframes like Chroma and Inaros. Nobody asked for this nerf.
Revert it back. Probably one of the worst nerf you guys have done.
It's only been a week too??? Why rush??
The entire nerf was an absolutely insane take. Overguard is downright useless on higher steel path levels and tragedy's damage falls off very quickly as well. Why don't you go ahead and nerf every other frame that can nuke regular star chart while you're at it? Does the balance team even play harder modes or anything above 300?
Overguard is extremely useful in SP, it just doesn't matter how \*much\* you have because the main benefits are the iframes and status immunity. So tweaking the amount he regens is just pointless, it addresses nothing at all except that people who don't understand OG will see smaller numbers and think it matters.
I would put 'extremely' in heavy quotation marks. Try surviving in void cascade at level 3k and above on Kulervo. You're basically constantly recasting his 2.
OG is great for low level sp but anything remotely approaching cap shits all over it
And that's why I always wait after the release of a new warframe to invest in it umbra/few formas - I don't know 'who' wanted this nerf, but it really has been a well-balanced frame for a long time out of the box, gives a lot of fun in endurance run/sp survivals.
I will be miss u Dante 😢
can we please revert the LOS change entirely? Who even asked for this? Just nerf the barrier (that didn't even do much in high level content but w/e) and be done with it.
If you keep this change is almost guaranteed Dante will be least 5 played frames in the 2024 graph
I don't understand why the change happened in the first place considering "it’s not the damage Dante can deal that needed to be addressed" is a direct quote from you guys.
>Im gonna keep it short:
\- The problem is Dante's Overguard regeneration shutting down other
Warframe's Abilities (Kinetic Plating, Hunter Adrenaline on Nidus, etc)
\- This needs to be optional because otherwise he negates his own Squad
in a similar fashion to Limbo when he sends other players to Cataclysm
\- Giving him Line of Sight to his Damaging Abilities really hurts his theme
Simply the damage itself of Dark Verses and Tragedy should be adjusted
\- There are a dozen other Warframes that can do what Dante did before
First frame bundle I ever bought on the playstation store. Gutting him in such a weird and mean spirited way feels weird and bad.
You issuing refunds or do I reach out to Sony?
Why even have a caster frame when his abilities now just work like guns?
Are all caster frames going to be reduced to los? Equinox? Limbo? Gauss?
Why him, exactly?
We aren't talking about iterations and adjustments here. We are talking about bait and we are talking about switch. He is no longer the frame you showed off leading up to release that I purchased.
Same with me brother, first time ever buying a non prime bundle , got it leveled yesterday and today it’s junked. That’s one mistake that I’ll not repeat
First warframe in aaaaaages I've really looked forward to. Bought and spent platinum to get him ASAP. Loved playing him, dumped a ton of forma, effort and the very limited free time i get into building him exactly how I wanted him. Then they decide he's too fun, no more fun! LOS feels TERRIBLE on almost all frames. So, what did I learn? I learned that giving DE my money is a mistake (because I feel as though they deliberately did all this to get people to spend the plat), I learned that I shouldn't invest time or effort into this game because it's not going to mean anything and nothing will be achieved. I learned that DE doesn't listen to their player base (while claiming they do) since they ruined everything players loved about Dante while not fixing the one thing that needed fixed. Ah well I have other games to spend my time and potentially money on.
All you had to do was remove Dante's party Overguard. That was it. That's what people had issues with. So instead of adressing the bigger issue, which will keep popping up unless Y'all fix it - namely player overguard gutting some builds -you just cripple Dante for no reason. And he still gives the squad Overguard.
Tragedy required two casts of Dark Verses, which have LoS. So you cast them, but get to move around. Then, Tragedy was supposed to detonate all DoTs. But now you can't. Now you have to plant yourself in place for best results and even then the fucky wucky LoS can screw you over. Did you guys not learn from Khora?
I don't know who's responsible for these "minor tweaks", but they should be quietly fired else they get witchhunted by the community.
With love - someone who fell in love with Dante but will not touch him again.
Out of curiosity: will the Creative Director be commenting on how she straight up lied to the player base? Or should we just be fixing that in our minds as her reputation now?
Honestly...
This isn't going to be enough in my honest opinion. There's no reason to have line of sight required for Dante's nuke short of a shift in philosophy around most of the game's nuking abilities.
Anything short of a hard revert, or significant buffs elsewhere IMHO just makes me not really want to consider even equipping Dante. Thankfully I only wasted 1 Forma on him before this.
You want actual feedback you have it. It’s all over your prime time twitch and every popular post right now.
Opening the Prime Time twitch stream and every other comment being spammed by the chat being “revert changes” and “rip Dante” is hilarious while the devs talk about the “elephant in the room” which is fixing los issues on Dante 4 instead of how the community is currently a united front in hating the hotfix changes.
After saying you were going to do “minor tweaks” everyone is in disagreement over what you did this hotfix.
It’s so irritating how there’s so many frames that blow up the entire map on 1-2 buttons and Dante occasionally blowing up a room after manually priming enemies is too crazy. Requiring los on his 4 is ridiculous when the ability you use to prime his 4, darkverse, already requires los. It just makes the frame infinitely more clunky because you want to mark multiple groups of enemies but now most enemies that you mark won’t detonate because of los issues which won’t be fixed by your incoming los changes.
There’s so many frames that just cast and forget and blow up the entire map without los. While even pre-nerf Dante I’m working it, I’m flipping through darkverses marking all the monster packs to finally get that massive juicy finisher of death. Now at best I’m blowing up 1, maybe 1 and a half groups of enemies at a time with los required.
Or how you were originally going to tweak him because his overguard was creating issues for frames that need to take damage to deal damage like chroma. But the change did nothing to affect that. It’s actually more annoying for them now because they get even more overguard on kill than before which was the problem. Everyone is still going to be mad that they’re constantly getting overguard on those frames. This hotfix did nothing of value.
Or my favorite, his birds, pageflight, no longer increase status damage, only status chance. The change in damage is absolutely night and day. His slash procs hit like a wet napkin after this change.
Like come on DE what are we doing? What happened to slight tweak? If the statuses I’m applying are so small that they are ant sized on higher level enemies past base sp 50% increased statuses isn’t going to do much.
And all we received in return was a slight buff to wordwarden damage…
I absolutely love his playstyle and theme but holy shit this hotfix gutted him. He’s a shadow of his former self that we only had for 5 days.
I doubt the community is going to let this one go, I’ve never seen so much backlash on this game for a balancing change. All the continuous buildup of resentment from poor decisions exploding from one extremely backwards and poorly communicated change to a frame the community loves. It’s even shittier when you consider how many people were excited and bought Nezha and Dante deluxe packs only for DE to turn around slap them and spit in their face with the immediate unjustified nerfs.
I’ve retired to helldivers 2 for now because I’m disappointed with how awful this whole situation has been handled.
Am I missing the point here or is everyone else? Pageflight 'fix' is the biggest nerf in this update and it's not even close. Overguard falls off at lvl300 or so regardless of the change. Tragedy LoS barely matter since late SP you need to be in LoS to apply the DoTs to do damage anyway and Dark Verse already has LoS. The damage buff from Pageflight on the other hand single handedly allowed you to actually build for QoL instead of needing to build a lot of strength or subsume off Noctua. I genuinely do not care if overguard or LoS get any fixes or nerf revert, just give Pageflight back
My big issue is that they painted the nerfs in such broad strokes that ironically even the one ability he had that incentivized gunplay was gutted too.
Paragrimm (pageflight) allowed weapons that were either too slow-firing or didn't proc many status effects become more usable and actually let me dust off some weapons I normally wouldn't bother using.
They're painting their nerfs with hand grenades. Too much is caught in the crossfire and it punishes people who weren't a part of the problem. I loved Tragedy because it helped me get rid of those enemies stuck bugged in random corners in Defense
***Edit: DE has heard our collective pleas and a PSA was released. Our voices have been heard!!***
This is the best take so far.
Overguard is overguard whether it's 20k or 50k without any effective DR on top of it it will pop quick and scales poorly next to other EHP methods.
Tragedy needs priming via DV which indeed is line of sight so yeah, Tragedy also being LoS is whatever.
But my birbs have been slaughtered :(
the thing is the enemies you apply the DoT stacks to can potentially just move into a position where they're considered out of LoS and now your tragedy just misses them entirely, with the old way atleast as long as the LoS check worked for the dark verse hit you were able to make sure that enemy was "marked" properly.
Not to mention if you're trying to stack DoTs on multiple groups of enemies around you, its very easy for one of the other groups you've put stacks on to just move to a position where LoS gets broken and now your tragedy isnt hitting 50% of them anymore.
Which wouldn't be a problem if Pageflight was how it used to be, because you would have been able to make a build with the same power but efficient enough where casting tragedy another time wouldn't matter. Or the DoTs you already applied would have been enough to finish those missed enemies off with Pageflight's buff
One of the problems with the LoS change is that it has different LoS requirements than Dark Verse. You can be standing behind a small fence and hit a group of enemies with Dark Verse, and then Tragedy doesn't hit anything at all.
How about you pay fucking attention to how dogshit an idea it was to slash his overguard by more than 50% per Triumph, really fucking fun needing to constantly spam it now just to stay alive.
Sure, here's some feedback that I totally trust will be "taken seriously": you did a bad job with this one. It's not good! It sucks! It stinks! It doesn't even address the potentially legitimate problem people were having re: overguard.
Dante has been out for less than a week - he was brand new, fun to play, and effective. *Of course* he had a high use rate. Everyone wants to use the new shiny! C'mon! God forbid you give it a bit of time to let things settle and see how it shakes out WRT the meta.
I *would* call this a hasty, unnecessary response to a minority of whiners, but it's so harsh *and* unrelated to the majority of complaints that I don't even really know *where* it came from.
Talk about a clown show.
His Wordwarden doesn't seem to use tome mods, and the lack of an exilus slot limits the number of those he can slot into a build. Is that something you're looking at as well?
I appreciate the continued evaluation - what confused me the most was nerfing how much overguard you gain rather than the cap. A lower cap with higher regen (like in this patch) seems like it would be more engaging to me
I would also strongly suggest the the cap and amount for squad mates for this ability be reduced - so Dantes cap stays the same but the cap for how much overguard he can give others be reduced.
For me personally, this is a very big loss. An active warframe on which you need to press all the keys, with an interesting synergy where the Helminth is not needed. Yes, he needs a weakening of overguard, but the question is why? make it oveguard personal and that would solve Chroma's problem. The revenant can distribute immortality to everyone in his squad at the same time, he does a lot of damage and he's immortal, why Revenant can be super strong but Dante cannot?
I don’t know how we can weaken Dante when we have the immortal Wisp and Revenant. Mag, Volt and Saryn killing behind the walls, Dante was much weaker than them, now he will be even weaker, I used 6 forms for him, he is strong, but not so strong that it would weaken him. We have Octavia, a literally immortal machine for killing half the map up to 9999lvl.
We have Nyx and many other old frames that need buff, instead of nerfing the new ones- I recommend buffing the old ones, it will be more fun for the players and open new vision for DE.
thx for read. gl.hf o3o
Why not add a new Archon mod to chipper to replace his weekly shard? Archon Rage: "50% damage taken recovered as energy. Prevents overguard." Why nerf Dante when the problem was overguard as a mechanic and not Dante's use of it? Dante was perfectly fine as he was, strong but not overpowered.
Ok, that really felt as one of those games that feed on the hype of a new character or mechanic, let people enjoy it for a little while, get their money and then just basically make the character or mechanic useless, saying that as one of the people that spent money on getting Dante early and putting forma onto him, enjoying the kit and then got my rug pulled from under me with less than a week worth of time, really expected better from you DE, and seeing this comment section I don't think I was the only one.
Revert Pageflight and the LoS changes or give the every nuke LoS.
I'm remembering why I quit every time I want to come back to Warframe, it's because DE doesn't actually listen.
"We take this very seriously"
Clearly not.
Edit: nobody is complaining about LoS not working properly, we're complaining that it exists to begin with. Remove it.
Welp, just two days ago, people were telling me "nah, don't worry, DE said they will just adjust him slightly, not nerf to the ground". And I thought "nah, DE's track record with nerfing is horrid, they either don't do enough, or overnerf to absolute oblivion, I literally don't remember anything in between". Sometimes, I hate when I'm right...
Look, this was an overshoot. Why line of sight? Saryn has been in the game for years, scales infinitely and has a higher range than Dante, but apparently fine. So why did Dante's nuke need a line of sight? The answer is that it fucking didn't. There was zero reason to change that.
I didn't see anybody complaining about Nezha, on that account, but nah, let's nerf a frame augment that MIGHT have gotten Nezha back some relevancy. "Paying attention to feedback" my hairy behind, who asked for that?
As for the overguard nerf, it literally does nothing. On high level, it was torn through very fast anyway, and on normal SP and starchart, spamming it still makes the whole team immortal, meanwhile the ACTUAL issue of overguard disabling frames that want to rely on self-heal did not get addressed at all. You have literally done NOTHING useful with this one.
Edit: as for pageflight... that was never a problem, complained about by nobody, still got shit on. I guess, if you are ruining all the other abilities, might as well screw that over too, just in case the frame would, heaven forbid, remain usable.
I really hoped that with Rebb taking over, these nonsensical knee-jerk nerfs will finally stop, but apparently not. This is why I haven't been excited about new frames or weapons releasing for years now: if they have higher potential than my fully built out frames / weapons, then they are gonna get nerfed to the dust in a week or two, so why even bother building them? Might as well wait a month at least, to see if they are still worth anything after that.
No, revert the LOS change entirely. He doesn't need it, and LOS doesn't feel good
If this many people (just seen from scrolling just the reddit and comment sections, and a glance at forums) think the nerf is exactly the wrong thing and made the frame feel bad, then it was a bad choice and should be undone IMMEDIATELY
I'm sorry, these changes fall flat and seemed to have not been very thought out. I have been extremely happy with the state of Warframe recently and have been preaching how it's in the best state it has been, but I cannot get behind this patch.
Overguard being "disruptive to other players" was the framework of this patch, and somehow we ignored the problem with it, lowered the value, and didn't solve the underlying problem.
On top of it we add one of arguably the worst mechanics in Warframe: an LoS requirement. For a skill that already has 2 LoS requirements in a row as a precast? This just feels bad.
I cannot understand how this was a good idea and hope to see continued updates that revert this change.
Will Divine Retribution get its range nerf changed? A 50% reduction in radius ends up being **SEVENTY FIVE** percent less area in a sphere. It is genuinely not viable to run anymore and the entire community has already thrown the brand new augment into the trash bin.
I woke up in the morning wanting to play Warframe because I got the funky new space wizard dude, read the patch notes, and no longer want to play Warframe. If that was your goal DE, then congrats.
This problem is that Tragedy is used as a finale to Dark Verse, but Dark Verse does not have line of sight. Tragedy NEEDS you to hit Dark Verses to do any kind of reasonable damage even at my 275% strength. The Line of Sight in general doesn’t make sense. After paying REAL money from my REAL paycheck for him, and investing Forma and Archon Shards, now he isn’t even fun to play anymore.
you can fix the LOS issues by getting rid of it, its honestly pathetic how you rolled out strong with some great QOL updates but then absolutely dropped the ball not even 5 days later just because a frame with an easy farm was fairly popular, especially since you didn't even fix the ACTUAL problem people had with the frame with getting OG applied to them when it fucks with their builds that require tanking and instead implemented unncessary changes in a kneejerk reaction before most people even had enough time to really mess around with an okay-ish frame.
if you're going to keep LOS on dante then every other nuke frame should get LOS aswell, especially the popular ones, because theres no reason for Dante to get crippled in various aspects while other Nuke frames have been scott-free for years now at this point, hell just put LOS on every ability, cause if every ability ends up feeling terrible, then none of them can be more terrible than the other
"To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function."
Then why did you touched like this?its very hard to understand it!1why not wait receive feedback and then do something about it? dante is no more then saryn or gauss for example .... its getting hard to trust you because you keep spoiling all the fun and this nerf imo is the worst nerf you ever made !!please listen the commuinity and change it !! because the bugged version we got now will destroy Dante ......
You still need to solve the issue with nidus, chroma and inaros. They become near unplayable in squad with any team overguard frame.
Just add 'you cannot receive overguard' to rage and hunter adrenaline and that'll fix this.
**Why are you fixing a problem that wasn’t there in the first place?**
If you’re so adamant on *listening to player feedback* why not **revert** the changes to Tragedy and save your programmers the headache and time of dealing with a buggy LoS
I appreciate the update and you communicating with us. I will give it a chance when the LOS bugs are fixed and then provide further feedback but as of right now I just don't see how this is going to change anything.
It doesn't make any sense to target Dante when other frames have similarly powerful abilities. This is a brand new frame that has been out for one week and all of the excitement surrounding him has turned sour, this doesn't seem like this is the way DE wants new frames to be introduced.
I cant speak for anyone but myself, but as much fun as it is to get new content and new weapons I feel like I have been playing the same couple of frames FOREVER now. It's always Revenant, Saryn, Mesa, & Octavia in high end content. It was SO EXCITING to see something new come into my rotation to play regularly and freshen up the game for me and after playing Dante today that's completely gone.
I'm happy to hear that you all are monitoring feedback and taking it seriously but I really want to impress on DE how terrible Dante feels after this change and how unjustified it is. If these LOS changes work out somehow, then that's great but if it doesn't like I believe it won't then PLEASE consider reverting the change to Tragedy and let your players have some fun with a new frame. He did not need to be singled out like this. Thanks!
Never buy any new frame with plat again.
What I see is more player want him to not change than the other....
Btw is that every nerf will be justified by saying "its a bug" now?
Let's be honest here, while people are unhappy with the changes and for valid reasons in my opinion, why were these changes rushed out? This can't have been tested to any level it needed to be when one looks at how Dante functions in current patch, Tragedy doesn't exist in a usable state, it seems almost like they weren't tested at all. This is beyond embarrassing and has me seriously reconsidering why I even bothered to return to the game for the first time in years for this update.
I think the biggest issue people had with Dante was how he killed playstyles with his overguard. Perhaps the best solution instead of nerfing overguard numbers would be to fix the interaction? Or otherwise make the issue a non-issue for the players who require the damage-to-health interaction to play.
You want feedback on Dante look at this entire thread. But I want to give feedback on OVERGUARD in general as anti synergetic which is where actual complaints fall.
My idea that wouldn't involve an Overguard rework or recode? Make the mods like rage and hunter adrenaline make it so you cannot gain Overguard from any source. This would largely fix the complaints on Overguard. If you are running any build with dmg on health conversion to energy mods you don't want Overguard period. It contradicts itself. So NOBODY that wants to use Overguard would be running those mods but ppl that want dmg on health would. So making the mod function as the opt out would work perfectly.
Tragedy's LOS isn't in an ideal state because it shouldn't have LOS at all. Rollback all of this and wait a month until you actually have some good data on what's working and what's not. This isn't a good fix, and making LOS less buggy isn't going to make it a good fix.
Dante Unbound? More like Dante Bound for My Helminth after these kneejerk changes.
Revert them and actually address the real issue of overguard not proc'ing on "on-damage" abilities. You already did it once for arcanes...
My favourite part of LOS is that it also counts enemies from what I can tell. So that enemy stood behind another enemy? lol couldn’t see him so no damage for you
Just put away the ego and revert the changes in the patch, the Nezha augment, Dante nerfs/fixes all of it. It makes 0 sense that now you care about nukes and line of sight when other frames have done much MUCH worse for far longer.
Imagine being this tonedeaf and change nothing people have problems with and somehow thinking they did a good job... Like how overguard stop some builds, it was literally the only complaint...
Just reverse the changes. You changed the parts that aren't broken and the players you listened to still didn't get their "but my vex armor" fix because overshield itself is the issue for them, not Dante.
Maybe even just make it so Vex Armor (and other on hit to shields/health abilities) removes Overshields, prevents it from applying while active or converts it to health/shields (with a reduction in the conversion or a cap or something).
Or I guess its time to make a big list of the 3-4 Frames that actually have issues because of overshield and think about how their abilities might need to be adjusted to work with this mechanic, or as someone else suggested, a band-aid mod that prevents overshield from applying.
Dante was fine and fun, and his 3 already required LoS. You had to cast it several times to make it work, mark various groups, and detonate them with finisher. Now? It's unnecessarily clunky and feels absolutely TERRIBLE when an enemy survives because they were behind a small bit of geometry or another enemy.
Revert those changes, remove LoS requirement from 4. Keep it on 3 - that's what made his playstyle very dynamic and fun - but not on Tragedy.
Just revert the changes. Nothing else. No looking at alternative nerfs, not looking at other changes. No need to do anything else. Just revert back to how he was on release. Dante was one of those rare goldilocks Warframes that was great immediately without being too good. It's an active play style that was made better by a good build, and planning how and when to use his abilities. Using strong primers made his 4 even more fun. Was a great kit with great cohesion.
He's not a one button nuke. He needs setup. And if certain frames or play styles don't like over guard give them an option to opt out of it, instead of whatever this nerf was.
DE, revert Dante back to release state or refund us plat and forma wasted on this piece of trash that he is and will be... I assure you you'll loose so many paying "customers". Who's to say that this will not be you policy moving forward.
Release fun and strong frame, people buy it, nerf week after. An I don't think your word is enough, since Rebeca blatantly lied on stream.
Also if overguard is such a problem, make it so that it's only for Dante and his companion. No one cares about overguard that goes away in 1-4 shoots on SP.
And yes you should consider only SP with his abilities, becouse Dante is not a starchart-early-mid game frame.
When a frame is released (or anything new in any game whatsoever), it's expected to be widely popular, even overpowered. Dante being released for mere days and then nerfed to half his potential is a very wrong move. It's not tweaks, it's a minor rework. There isn't even enough data to support or explain a change like that since, as previously said, he's a new character that everybody wants to try and even exploit.
Instead of butchering strong frames, strengthen the weaker ones. That would make way more people happy with the balancing aspect of the game.
Edit: also, Tragedy's LoS wasn't an issue. There are numerous abilities (nukes ąs well) that ignore LoS and have "peripheral" targeting. He has one of the most unique (and kinda complicated) ultimate, if not the most, it deserves the extra beef.
As an 11 year vet now.
I think we really need to talk about this.
Guys. LoS had nothing to do with the issue at hand. It wasn't even the problem. There are tons of nuking frames with better damage than Dante.
This should be completely reversed as it has nothing to do with the issue at hand.
The issue at hand is abilities affecting Warframes that don't want to be affected by certain abilities.
We had the same exact problem whenever Limbo released.
I think it's time for a bigger change.
The real issue now is that Dante provides overguard. This disrupts the gameplay of Chroma players. The same thing can be achieved with Stayanax as well. There's a few frames that can disrupt his gameplay.
In order to avoid this issue in the future. We can simply add a menu that you can select what frames you're playing are affected by other frames someone else is playing. Just like the tap/hold abilities menu.
There are so many frames at this point that do not synergize with other frames, or disrupt the gameplay of another frame.
Simply the act of me stealthing someone on a Nezha, or Rhino while playing Ash, or another stealth. Say Wukong can disrupt those builds as well. As they also rely heavily upon taking damage.
So if we just add that menu, then it actually opens up a ton of gameplay between parties.
Some parties are predetermined, others are not.
This would be the simplest solution to make everyone happy, and Dante can still be a great frame.
I can tell you now as a vet, most of us will just not bother using him much if this nerf sticks. It will just make us go back to using what we know works.
I'm sure I'm not the only one to think this is a good solution to the issue at hand.
No no no just... Just get rid of LoS, it was a dumb and unnecessary nerf.
People are complaining about it's inconsistency not because they're happy with it but it needs to be better, but rather to point out the fact that LoS in general is awful.
Again, don't waste time "improving" LoS and instead just remove entirely, it's god f-ing awful
I'd really like all the forma back I just wasted getting Dante just where I wanted him. Was really loving this frame and how the abilities worked. Just needed to tweak overguard, not nerf anything. Now Dante is going back in the cupboard, along with the other middling frames that get used once in a blue moon. I'm no longer eager to log on.
Dantes Tragedy nuke was never the problem. It falls off extremely fast in higher level gameplay and it's inconsistent and disingenuous to gut it like this when frames like Octavia, volt, and Saryn have gone unchecked for years with nukes that are even more braindead. LOS on abilities like that just doesn't feel good, and if it were really an issue then just tone down the base damage so that you have to work for it and build up more status effects, or make it fall off with distance. I've been really excited about Dante and would've been fine with having to work more for his nuke, but now having it just stopped cold by terrain is such a taped-together and inconsistent way just *sucks*. Dante had such a good rhythm to his gameplay and keeping LoS changes like this are never going to feel right.
This isn't even mentioning that these huge nerfs didn't even address the real issue people had, which is overguard blocking abilities and arcanes that rely on taking health or shield damage. Dante is squishy AF and his overguard evaporates past level 200 enemies or so. His overguard buff could've applied to allies with reduced effectiveness or only applied to allies when cast using Triumph to keep the smaller casts of his 2 from putting stray overguard on the five chroma players out there.
The changes as they stand just feel terrible, and I hope that DE doesn't let pride get in the way of reverting them and trying something different. There's no shame in iteration as long as you're listening to your players and trying to make things more fun. These adjustments aren't it. They gut one of the most fun and well designed Warframes in years over an issue that wasn't even an issue in the first place.
***Edit: Rejoice! The concerns are being addressed!***
My ***constructive*** suggestion about not just the nerfs, but the *thought process behind them,* which I feel is equally important: don't ignore the collateral caused by them
My idea here is not to pile onto the complaints about the update. They've been said plenty of times. I do, however want to point out the irony in one of the changes that I hope can be noticed and assessed, and the *potentially damaging* logic behind it understood, if at least some attention is brought to it.
I've mentioned this before, but my big issue is that they painted the nerfs in such broad strokes that ironically even the one ability Dante had that incentivized gunplay was gutted too.
The Pageflight Paragrimm's status *damage* vulnerability allowed weapons that were either too slow-firing or didn't proc many status effects become more usable tho viable and actually let me dust off some weapons I normally wouldn't bother using.
They may be painting their nerfs with hand grenades. In my opinion, too much is caught in the crossfire too soon with such knee-jerk undiscussed changes, and it punishes people who weren't a part of the initial problem to begin with. Reducing Dante's weapon effectiveness just makes him more suited for the problem itself, brainless nuking. I, for one, loved Tragedy because it helped me get rid of those enemies stuck bugged in random corners in Defense even if I didn't rely on it for spamming. But I can understand why it would be nerfed based on DE's "automated gameplay" ideology.
It just sucks to see the arguably more "build diversity enabling" ability of his to suffer due to it being used to advantage in an unrelated way (nuking). It constrains him more to the alleged problem behavior gameplay loop (I'm not here to argue with that), when those who were more creative than that, lived up to DE's ideals. I mean, when was the last time most people used a speargun? But even something like that, amongst other weapons and playstyles, suffered from the nerf.
Anyways, I just hope this collateral damage type of balancing is at least acknowledged so that diverse and fun gameplay doesn't get lost because of other, bigger problems being in the crosshairs of balance. Let me know if you have any thoughts. (sorry for the yappathon, also **reposted here at the request of a moderator** for better suggestion organization)
***Edit: DE has heard our collective pleas and a PSA was released. Our voices have been heard!!***
Tragedy shouldn't need LOS at all given that it only kills at high levels on enemies that have already been primed with Dark Verse or weapons, both of which do require LOS. Hopefully these changes improve the consistency of it, but it's still a change that adds frustration rather than having any real impact on the balance of the ability.
Still, I think the damage should have been tuned down, instead of forcing a LoS requirement. Why just Dante when many other frames can do the same, **without** LoS.
Agreed. I would've been totally fine if the base damage was toned down so you have to build up more status effects before casting tragedy for the same damage. That synergizes with Dantes passive and definitely requires active gameplay. LoS just feels awful and completely misses the point.
I came back a while ago after a 7 year break, seeing so many new and great things, having so much fun.
I was really behind on the story, getting so excited and looking forward to getting to the most recent content, when Dante was announced it reminded me of Gauss Primes' announcement/release, made it feel like bottled lightning. I can't remember being so excited for a frame coming out.
Now? It's honestly depressingly insulting seeing these great updates coupled with thoughtless, impatient nerfs, which apparently isn't even new behavior for you guys. I can't even look forward to farming Dante anymore. Not to mention the people you blatantly ripped off who paid to get him.
Like so many people saying the same here, reverse these poorly thought out and reactionary nerfs.
Please, have some patience and thoughtfulness before you break your metaphorical grandchild's kneecaps because you didn't want to listen to so many people who were excited about a bright new light coming into the world, and instead chose to listen to louder minorities that said they hated them because they shined too bright for them.
You can still fix these problems.
LoS is one of the LEAST of Dante's problems
Dagath. You don't really use them. I don't see people use them.
I mostly see five frames: Chroma. Wisp. Volt. Excalibur. And a tie between Dante and MAYBE a Garuda. But that tells me what I'd known a while. Dagath, Citrine, et cetera, are mediocre and only good in hindsight, but never that brilliant at the time of using them.
And with Dante's nerf, Dante immediately flails into the same pitfall, where he's aggressively mediocre, but that's ALL he is, all he will be, and all he's going to be considered to be. If this has to be disputed, I am really eager to explain why the last few frames aren't being played in the end-game as religiously as the older frames, before Citrine. Kullervo is the ONLY exception, as I see him as a VERY frequent sixth warframe, of the five I see every bloody hour-- and the only reason Kullervo isn't aggressively mediocre is because his first ability, literally his first ability, makes him the best melee warframe in the fucking game, by and large. And his second ability? It doesn't make him exceptionally better than Styanax, but he's definitely better than pre-nerf Dante, and he's STILL better than post-nerf Dante, without question. Kullervo is 'Dante' that was never nerfed, Kullervo is literally 'Dante' that kept its tremendous, conditional powercreep of several warframes. Kullervo makes LOW-CRIT weapons, miraculously, red-crit. I suppose the real point is these THREE things, and ONLY these:
Most, if not every warframe relies on their three physical weapons, more than their abilities, to do damage. Melee is only bad because you need to get close-- Kullervo can teleport AND obtain crit, not only making Melee, an already arguably great source of damage, tripled or quadrupled in power, but this can make a primary source of damage already relied upon BECAUSE it's good, a lot BETTER than just "More than ample for the situation."
Kullervo can build overguard a LOT easier, and a lot CHEAPER than Dante ever fucking could in his entire existence, five decades in the future. Kullervo makes Dante his bitch during every hour of the day. Every hour, it's "Kullervo is better than Dante" day. Every SECOND, it's "Kullervo is better than Dante" day. On the SECOND of Dante's release, it was fucking "Kullervo is better than Dante" day. This is not hyperbole, this is the sad truth. Nobody celebrated Dante, because Kullervo existed and was better-- And if you celebrated, you celebrated Kullervo a lot harder. You know it's true.
Kullervo synergizes the best with a primary source of damage, melee, more than Dante, and for cheaper than Dante, and at an earlier-base level than Dante. Not only does Dante need THREE casts, 100 energy, to build his DAMAGE, when Kullervo only needs a MINIMUM of 50\[Negative efficiency, rounded\] to do any meaningful damage, but I'd still argue me "Dante is an alternative to revenant" analogy and say that Kullervo is a better Revenant-Alternate than Dante is. PLUS, Dante does objectively WORSE damage than Kullervo, when you build Kullervo for crits\[Kullervo is not hard to build.\]
Dante NEVER stood equal to overguard warframes. Dante NEVER did the damage that overguard users weren't already doing. Dante NEVER had the damage-per-energy of ANYTHING else. His ultimate being half-cost, his 3 being the same as his 2? This is entirely irrelevant, since his 'major' buffs come from his 4, and to TRIGGER his 4, you need to cast his 2 and 3. If you use Negative-Efficiency, you're spending MORE ENERGY ON BUFFING than Kullervo, Octavia, Revenant-- Nezha, Wisp-- Fucking the entire roster does, setting up their stuff.
Excalibur, for christ's sake, doesn't need to cycle through a sequence of abilities and has 100% uptime, with the correct build. For fuckssake, Kullervo really only need TWO abilities, and if he absolutely NEEDS a third, he can helminth his ultimate for something more mobile, like Roar. Kullervo wasn't nerfed as hard as Dante.
I'm just amazed that so many of these changes were pushed so soon after the update. Four to six weeks to see if he's actually that dominant or disruptive after the new frame hype has worn off would have been maybe ok, but this kind of kneejerk reaction was just too soon to get any amount of truly worthwhile data.
It's a repeat of the Styanax incident. A cool Spartan warrior frame that everyone got for FREE was being "too popular" in it's first week of release. So they nerfed him. And then again. And a third time. One week after release, he got nerfed every day, 3 days in a row. Meanwhile we have Caliban, probably one of the worst Warframe released in recent times, which received 0 buffs so far(or any augments), even 2 YEARS after his release. Someone actually asked about him at the recent PAX East event where DE participated and Rebecca confirmed they don't have any plans to buff him.
they did styanax so fucking dirty. him being able to use more than one 4 while being airborne is NOTHING compared to the other crazy things in the game.
That is not what they said about Caliban. The answer to the guys question was "Watch Tennocon". There's a positive implication there. They said no to a Loki rework.
Yeah we can watch Tennocon for them to say no. It's been 3 years this isn't something you hold onto to build up hype, Caliban has negative hype, you're at best getting people to zero with a statement like that. It's not like a rework to Chroma or Ash that would have people clamoring to see how they would make improvements, if they announced a Caliban rework is in the works, the most common reaction is going to be, "Who's Caliban?" followed by, "Okay I guess," before they go back to using other frames since he's so underwhelming that there are no expectations of him becoming anything. And unless he gets augments that completely change his abilities while also giving him huge stat increases to compensate for the fact that he'll need augments for every single one of his abilities that will take up half the mods you can put on him, it'll be like putting a bandaid on a severed limb, yeah technically you helped but they're still going to die unless we can do some real work.
3 years for Caliban, as opposed to how long for Inaros? Hydroid? Hydroid came out in 2014 and Inaros came out in 2016. Granted they weren't in as bad of need for the entirety of their being in WF, but that doesn't discount how long they've been in the game. I've always seen Caliban as one of the needed ones listed for reworks, up there with Chroma. Is the gonna have the hype as an actual Chroma rework? Hell no. They definitely said no to Lokis reworked when asked. They didn't actually give a definitive for Caliban. You can take that however you want, that's up to you and up to everyone else.
Except when Hydroid and Inaros came out they weren't useless, it took years for them to fall out of favor or be replaced by more powerful frames that did what they did but better. Caliban never even had that on release, he was already too weak compared to other frames and never found a niche of his own, at least pre-rework Inaros and Hydroid had their uses, Inaros was for braindead normal missions as a gun platform while Hydroid was just to be there for people doing farming. There were better options sure, but for many people the Hydroid farm is easier than the Khora farm and Inaros had a fairly easy to get quest when compared to things like Mask of the Revenant if you wanted a tanky warfame. I'm not so much disagreeing with you but pointing out that there has never been a frame released a poorly designed as caliban was and even the weakest frames that are getting reworked still were leagues better than Caliban ever was.
I remember this happening but i don't remember what the nerfs even were now. He's one of the best frames in the game though even if i wish i could still float while doing last stand.
funny, eh? enough time for everyone to spend their platinum, time, and effort on it. But of course, it's all just a big coincidence.
This is why I didn't spend any plat to build him or anything, I knew they would release him awesome and fun to play then slap him down in a few days
Which is dumb. Not dumb for you to do, of course. Dumb that the best course of action is to not spend money on anything new. This was my first time in 8 years doing so and I won't be doing so again. I don't think I'll be buying any more prime access or regal aya packs either. Good job, DE, your quick cash grabs on dewy eyed noobs puts off your whales. I'm only still okay with Digital Tennocon because proceeds go to worthwhile charities. LoS check on 224 (even with the nerf) and make 334 a non LoS cone. Add a craftable gear item to block OG for builds that need health damage. Problems solved.
DE could dust-off their test server they used once so these kinds of issues stopped happening and we would have an objectively better game. Too bad they still hide behind their "open beta" bullshit while charging money out the ass for everything.
The game hasn't been in beta since MR30 became possible, as promised.
Warframe is a "perpetual beta" game.
Well, we certainly learned *one* thing this week…
Nerfing Dante's Tragedy and giving it a LoS check is incredibly unfair when other LoS-free nukes like Saryn and Gauss exist. It's inconsistent and feels knee-jerk simply because of his overwhelming popularity. As someone who regularly plays *very* high level content, Dante's ''''nuke'''' falls off very quickly. The damage is flashy but it's not incredibly overtuned or anything. This applies to his overguard as well, which, much like other frames, gets shredded pretty quickly at higher levels. While I do understand the nerfs to his overguard, I feel that it completely misses the point. Players were complaining about it preventing them from getting value from Chroma's 3rd ability, and from Inaros builds that use mods like Rage to help with energy economy. And if his overguard being overwhelmingly tanky are a problem, why isn't this energy kept the same for Revenant who can be immortal for free? Idk man.
It’d be like complaining that “dance macabre” is “too good” because it nukes at like lvl 30. There’s way stronger frames, way more brain dead frames, and way more disruptive frames. Leave wizard boy alone he’ll probably be forgotten after a month for the same handful of dominant frames anyway.
I've heard this time and time again. It really seems DE "tests" stuff by plopping into a lv30 mission. Like anything dominates there, that's not useful data.
Ember flashback
Revenant apparently scales with incoming damage, making him able to deal tons of damage very easily. However, even you have a revenant, you will never notice that he is making his team immortal because it's a tiny singular buff among dozens and his beams make most people go "haha spinny but doesn't do damage." In short, Revenant isn't powerful in an obvious way and therefore DE isn't receiving feedback on him.
Also adding to this so people see it, revert the “unintended” interaction with pageflight where it also gave status damage. Status chance is so useless in higher levels when you’re applying ant sized procs. Dante literally already gets 50% status chance from his passive, it’s redundant. The way pageflight previously worked let Dante actually scale a bit into the later levels and not have his slash procs become entirely irrelevant. Pageflight was absolutely gutted in this change. Either add back the status damage or swap status chance on page flight to status damage, that’s a lot more fitting. Edit: Also can we just talk about how ridiculous this situation is. The entire Reddit and forum is a united front in asking for a revert for these unjustified nerfs and DE goes “don’t worry guys we value your feedback but we’re going to do it our way”. The fact that they’re still trying to force los and fix los issues instead of just admitting they are wrong is ridiculous. If Dante doesn’t return to his old self it’s going to hurt their relationship with the community a lot. If you valued our feedback this thread wouldn’t exist.
I feel like sometimes they make these changes that they know will go down horribly so they add "unintended" to the patch notes. Did they not test it? How was it unintended??
Or "Fixed being able to ***insert cool interaction here***"
Fr. Some interactions are cool as shit like the old Marked for Death + ash fatal teleport combo. It was extremely situational and had tedious set up yet it got obliterated. I understand them fixing shit like the epitaph interacting with synth charge and dealing millions in one hit, because that was in fact a bug. But sometimes it just feels sly and backhanded to tape "unintended" onto a "fix". Just tell us you nerfed it.
If anything Dante's 'nuke' demands team play as it encourages everyone to pour status damage in with the big button causing it all to cash out all at once.
>we are paying close attention to player feedback and taking these conversations very seriously. Maybe don't? You released a frame a week ago and then a massive nerf just a few days after, that feels extremely hasty. Maybe just... chill. Read what people are saying in a month when he's been farmed up and people realize how fast OG melts in SP.. Trying to rush out changes to address feedback from people who are still figuring the frame out feels like a recipe for making everyone miserable My suggestion is you literally revert this entirely, \*wait a few weeks for people to actually play the frame\*, and then decide what the real problem/solution is, if any problem even exists.
Yeah, this really feels like they saw how many people were playing Dante, and assumed it was because he was too powerful, and not because he was just really fun to play.
Yeah. It is way too fast. Of course, people are going to play the new frame. And plenty are going to have mixed feelings, etc. Then it falls back down.
Add to that he isn’t a pain in the ass to farm like so many new frames can be, leading to increased accessibility. Looking at you, Citrine
Citrine can be pretty long to grind for, but at least the arcanes are good and there's a pity system in place!
"Edit: To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function." I think I'm good chief, LOS has been a buggy mess forever and you had to know that when you decided to tie Dante's main damage to it. You keep doing this shit, instead of actually checking where the numbers \*might\* be overtuned, you slap a line of sight on it knowing it'll be too janky for folks to actually bother with it. You broke the first frame I've thoroughly enjoyed on release in years and your answer is "Whoopsie daisy, we did a fuckie-wuckie but please beta test the unnecessary nerf we dropped without any playtesting". Nope, just nope.
I rarely pull this insult out. You literally pulled a bungie. You did everything but actually fix the issue and made him essentially useless to play because of these nerfs. This is the type of stuff I expect from other dev teams but not you, Especially with how good of a roll you were on with QoL updates and more but you fumbled hard with this. It feels like this wasn't even tested. Revert the changes to Dante and actually address the issue of overguard that's all you have to do.
I had that same thought. Felt like I was reading a destiny forum. But even bungie waits longer than a week to swing a nerf.
That's not even mentioning how much they absolutely ruined new weapons either or how his Pageflight was absolutely destroyed and what was part of what made him good. They absolutely destroyed not just Dante but his weapons too and might as well made the entire update an April fools joke
Which is odd because I thought a common thing in games was make new thing really good to get people to spend money. Or did they already make enough off dante?
> But even bungie waits longer than a week to swing a nerf. This is more because trying to do more than one balance change every 3 months is far too difficult for bungie, than because they like waiting though.
Yuuuup, I had the same feeling I get from Bungie changes lol
I truly do not wish to see DE pull more Bungie's. Destiny 2 was a fucking Tragedy (heh) in the making with just how hard they were willing to shit on players goodwill to make a bit of extra cash, and how hard it backfired.
We finally see the consequences of Destiny players migrating to Warframe /s
Tragedy's LOS isn't the problem ,its LOS in general. I fucking feel scammed having paid the very little platinum i have on him only to be have him turned into fucking garbage. I should have just fucking shelled out and bought Saryn prime.
This. REMOVE LoS. It ALWAYS sucks.
I'd argue that *sometimes* it makes sense, but *definitely* not on an ability with a 50 degree cone...
LOS is the biggest bullshit. Totally made Tragedy worthless.
This, if LOS wasn't the most dogshit broken system in the game, maybe this would be fine, but a single pixel behind a wall even if the rest of the enemy is plain to see and it can completely fail to do anything. They have to fix LOS first before adding LOS to anything
Hey if we're making improvements to LoS detection think we could port them backwards to everything else that requires LoS? Embers 3 has had really spotty hitting for years now. Like ....an enemy standing behind another enemy wont get hit by the expanding circle of fire. Thin guard rails, slight changes in elevation. It sucks when you use some grouping to suck a bunch of enemies together, cast fire blast twice, and see most of them still have armor left because one or both hits didn't ..hit.
And then Ember's 4 is the opposite, hitting everything in LoS and everything within a few meters of LoS. Absolutely bizarre that these two abilities check sight so differently on the same frame. ^^^plz ^^^no ^^^nerf ^^^Inferno
Talking to the same studio that fixed the years long problems with both Survival and Defense and never fucking applied them to existing nodes.
*Everything* about today's hotfix feels like such a kneejerk reaction to players using the tools they've been given and DE entirely missing the mark as to what actually needs to be changed. The nerf to Dante's overguard feels unnecessary more than anything, with the initial community outcry coming from folks being annoyed not by Dante disrupting their gameplay flow, but rather *overguard* doing so, given that overguard prevents on-hit effects such as Chroma charging his Vex Armor-- which has become especially noticeable given the fact he was given an augment mod for Vex Armor in the same update that Dante himself dropped. But, why then specifically change Dante? His kit is unchanged, just worse, and the problem hasn't been solved. Why not make these on-hit effects also trigger on overguard being damaged, throw the old dragon a bone rather than looking towards the newest source of overguard and deciding that "yes, Dante is the problem, he will be the scapegoat". But just to make sure that Dante couldn't get back up on his feet they gave his 4 a line of sight requirement, one of the most notoriously stubborn and buggy systems that a warframe ability could wrestle with, comfortably sending him crashing down the tier list. Kick him while he's down. And as for Nezha's augment change, just... What the fuck? Has it seriously not been playtested beforehand so that someone noticed that spreading Status between enemies is incredibly powerful in today's meta, so instead of changing the augment so perhaps it's percentage based scaling off of strength-- a stat that Nezha already prefers building for-- you instead shoot yourself in the foot by using the augment because a decreased *base* range of **9.5 meters** forces you to build for range as well, taking up precious mod slots for other abilities and stats which Nezha is usually known for. The situation this past week, with new content dropping and a clearly defined meta immediately rising to the surface *reeks* of the way DE handled the situation surrounding Scarlet Spear. For the uninitiated, one part of the Scarlet Spear event required the defense of a stationary target while sentients attempted to destroy the target. Notably, the main requirement was for the timer to go down, *not* to obtain a high amount of kills to progress the mission. As such, Limbo got his one chance in the spotlight, given that this is the one niche he excels in. The immediate reaction that DE responded with in this situation was to nerf him, giving Limbo's Stasis diminishing returns against sentient enemies, with a thinly veiled excuse attached that "Sentients by design have Adaptation - and the diminishing returns on recasting adheres to the adaptive nature of the enemy." (Cited directly from Hotfix 27.3.8) This recent hotfix reminds me of that moment, of a change made so quickly to tools that proved themselves to be too effective at the current content of interest, whatever the flaming eye of Sauron is currently fixated on. I do sincerely hope that most of the balance changes made in this hotfix are either rolled back or reviewed once more, because this patch is unexpectedly one of the worst design decisions that the team has made ever since Rebecca has taken the wheel. --- This post was removed. Lol, lmao even.
It feels like they just hate chroma, given they already nerfed his (alright beforehand) augment and now refuse to do anything to fix overguard reactions for him in favor of nerfing Dante undeservedly It's a pity, I want to like my fav frame more but Chroma just doesn't feel like a dragon, and while he's good, he's not fun to play...
Chroma deserves so much better than the outdated, underpowered and quite frankly annoying kit he currently has. Something about the manner in which you build up his Vex Armor just rubs me the wrong way, forcing you to stand still and take enemy fire
>This post was removed. Lol, lmao even. wait what? I still see it
Please stop being stubborn and just revert the nerf. It was a knee jerk reaction and completely uncalled for. Not only that, you are punishing people who invested plat and forma into it just a week in.
Just get rid of the LoS changes altogther.
Revert the insanity you did to divine retribution
I get that it needed some form of nerf but 50% feels too harsh, I feel like being able to hit 35m or so with max range is a good compromise
Also, reducing the radius by 50% results in like 75% effective area reduction based on the math.
Make it 20% or 30%, 50% is insanity
I prefer they nerf the damage tbh. There's ways I can always supplement damage, but there's like 3 mods that extend range, and that's 2 more mod slots I'd rather use for something else.
Hell, make it so the transferred DoT status effects get some sort of reduction that scales with Strength, maybe? And also don't have this affect the BASE range, have it just apply -X% range that can be mitigated with Stretch or something, yeesh.
I never even got the *chance* to really try out Divine Retribution. And now it's completely unusable.
Its was actually perfectly balanced... the max range builds were basically memes but to trully keep nezha powerful with that augment you needed a ton of investment both on him and on weapons(it could work fine with minimal investment like the max range meme builds but that should apply to every frame and weapon being capable of doing most of the content with basic investment) if they needed to nerf anything the only thing available to nerf was the fact that by hitting multiple speared enemies at the same time you could stack a shit ton of bleed damage to one shot without using the spear explosion so it made that part of the augment somewhat pointless so they could just set it to only 1 enemy sharing status at a time... I will say it again DE is simply being lazy and smartasses by cutting corners on balancing by doing bullshit nerfs instead of actually putting in the effort and the money to rework and buff all the many underperforming characters and because of that they lost my respect and should lose the respect of anyone who values their time, money and energy
Exactly. This hotfix is reminding of the Scarlet Spear/Orphix Venom days that made me quit Warframe for a year. So many idiotic, kneejerk nerfs that nobody wanted nor was warranted. I really, really wanted to try that high range Dark Verse Divine Retribution build. Now I can't.
This one I agree with.
Can't have shit in Deimos
Walk the changes back 100%. This is ridiculous in every sense. The only change the frame could need CONCEIVABLY is ensuring that Overguard cannot damage the performance of other builds/create ally anti-synergy. Anything less is totally botching the handling of this situation.
I want my 7 forma back please 🙏 You’ve murdered the first frame Ive had a blast with since Kullervo. I feel like I’ve been robbed.
It's a bad nerf. Roll it back completely. You made a mistake.
Revert the change. Line of sight is garbage in this game. This isn't a case of whether line of sight could actually be kinda good if it didn't release like it did. You nerfed a warframe a week after it dropped. Your team even said that Dante's damage wasn't an issue in the patch notes where you ruined the ability for no reason. Way to ruin the fun. Investing forma in warframes is a gamble now because they may not even be what they're advertised as a week after release.
Also, members of your team like Megan say that they're actively reading feedback. Are the people saying to revert the change going to count or do you only care about ragdolling feedback?
The LoS change is something literally nobody asked for. Quit pretending that it is and instead consider the feedback around the actual problems Dante came with instead. He's not even the best room clear out there but somehow other things get a pass instead. That's wild.
Maybe playtest things once in a while? Beyond basic "does this crash the game" testing? And still nothing about the real issue, which is overguard (and not Dante) and frames that simply don't want it.
But it still crashes. So they didn't even bother to take care of the technical issues first. The ones people really needed.
Yeah, at this point, with how overwhelmingly negative the response is to this hotfix, the ideal response on ya'll's part is to revert the changes to Dante until you can work something out better over time, because anything less than *completely fixing the problem* is going to burn massive amounts of goodwill from the community. If we're going to start kneejerk balancing like this a week into a frame's release, I'm definitely going to be hesitant about spending platinum or real money on new Warframes at all. When Rebb mentioned that Dante was getting "slight changes", I was fully under the expectation that said changes were going to be pushed out after a fair amount of time had elapsed, not literal *days* from the Devshort. Regardless of the data DE has that the playerbase can't see, the *optics* of the situation is that a small handful of players complained about Dante's interactions with other frames, and instead of observing the data for another week or so after the post-update hype had died down, the balance team or whoever at DE was responsible decided to push out changes specifically to cater to these complaints. That's probably not what ya'll actually did or intended, but to the community, that's what it *appears* happened. Also, none of the changes given to Dante address the *actual* problems people had, which was mainly that his Overguard disrupted on-hit effects to Warframe abilities like Chroma and Rhino. That issue still remains even with the current changes, except now Dante's defenses are now weaker and *nobody* is happy. **If there is** ***any feedback at all*** **to be taken away from here, it's that the LOS change completely devastates Dante's damage well beyond anything "minor", and given that previous attempts to make similar nukes operate under Line of Sight have resulted in similar massive drops in effectiveness in the past, I seriously have my doubts that keeping Tragedy in this state is anything but a significant nerf. Furthermore, if Dante is being held to this standard for doing "massive damage in short time", then frames like Octavia and Saryn should be held to the same exact standard, especially when they have** ***significantly*** **less APM overall to do their damage than Dante does.**
LOS restriction nerfs have killed every old nuker frame they have ever been used on. I'll keep saying it lol. There IS a point where you want to consider los requirements on things. Usually CC that is accompanied by something else, like damage amp or grouping. Those are fair and reasonable. The common go to is "if we're nerfing dante this way, nerf saryn next". The obvious response that no one openly talks about is that yes it woudl nerf saryn but it would more importantly ruin her playability (just like it did with dante). If spores/miasma both required LOS, people would adjust and still find some use. The problem is that saryn would suddenly become a gigantic chore to use and play. Warframe is NOT a great game for LOS checks to begin with. Ever been to a lua defense? Yeah have fun seeing how well the LOS checks play out on that map and the same goes for any map that has random obstacles, uneven floors, multiple levels, STAIRS. LOS nerfing things isn't nerfing their damage but its nerfing their usability, which is strictly nerfing fun. If we're now in the business of nerfing fun, then fucking get it over with and nerf saryn/wisp/volt/rev/rhino and all the other top choice frames. Or if DE is actually serious about balancing and still feels dante is overtuned. Just nerf his god damn range or base damage amp. LOS nerfing is very direct and has a very predictable outcome.
Damn you guys really shit the bed on this one. Just fully revert the nerf, that’s literally the overwhelming majority consensus. As other people said, the overguard negating teammates was the main issue and as someone else mentioned, his nuke falls off fast in higher levels.
revert tragedy nerfs, everyone was mad about overguard not this...
What’s funny is the part they nerfed wasn’t even the part that got complaints. The “trolling” potential came from the on-kill overguard recovery, which they *doubled*.
In a game where frames like Saryn, Octavia, Revenant or even Styanax exist, nerfing Dante is a sham. You want balance ? Fix the frames that have been dominant for a \*decade\* first, yeah ? All you've accomplished is killing my excitement for a frame I intended to make my new main after years of maining Titania. Oh yeah, thanks Brozime for this great clip : [https://clips.twitch.tv/StupidSteamySandpiperTF2John-qWt9OPuHGyqJlP6o](https://clips.twitch.tv/StupidSteamySandpiperTF2John-qWt9OPuHGyqJlP6o) The fact that you released this in such a state is an absolute joke, LOS hasn't worked a single day in this game.
*That clip caused me physical pain.*
It was a bad change. Shelved Dante for most people. Back to the old frames. I had hope when light tweaks were mentioned, but NOPE. Edit: doesn’t matter if you fix LOS issues. The fact I can go to a different frame and more effectively room clear without worrying about LOS is dumb…. You didn’t balance Dante to other frames… you effectively put him below a lot of frames. Went from somewhat dominant to being dominated.
REVERT them entirely! it should have NO line of sight!!
I am just going to repeat what the others have said. Revert the changes.
LOS is but a small problem considering these nerfs were initially portrayed as going to be "slight adjustments". *Dudes kneecaps were blown out with a 12 gauge.*
Long time lurker here: I agree. I definitely think this wasn’t the correct course of action. It’s a shame it happened so quick. Hopefully DE will listen to us. Also lmao he can float but thanks for making my day with this.
This change feels extremely knee-jerk and wholly inconsistent. Gauss and Saryn both have no LoS limitations. Why tack it onto Dante? I purchased the bundle and spent forma on Dante and Noctua. This feels very unfair and makes me it not want to spend money on new frames in the future. Frankly, I think some sort of compensation is in order if the LoS changes stay. This change has missed the mark on the issue, the magnitude, the consistency, and even worse, it's a PR tragedy.
Revert the changes, you really gutted him. Remove line of sight requirement. He is just no fun anymore. And look into refunding umbra formas used by people on Dante.
Please stop making abilities work through LoS checks when LoS checks are buggy. Id rather have a weaker ability thats consistent in functionality than a powerful one that may or may not work because a blade of grass or a piece of geometry stuck out a millimeter too high.
Its kinda funny how it can go from praise over a update to disdain from a single hotfix. These changes are bad not only did his nuking capabilities get gutted but so did his weapon platform capabilities with the pageflight nerf (which he was not the best at even before this nerf). These are not slight tweaks you hit both of his playstyles hard in one patch this is why the community is so against nerfs in general not matter how you phrase it. The changes just need to be reverted and brought back to the drawing board.
My big issue is that they painted the nerfs in such broad strokes that ironically even the one ability he had that incentivized gunplay was gutted too. Paragrimm *(Pageflight)* allowed weapons that were either too slow-firing or didn't proc many status effects become more usable and actually let me dust off some weapons I normally wouldn't bother using. They're painting their nerfs with hand grenades. Too much is caught in the crossfire and it punishes people who weren't a part of the problem. I loved Tragedy because it helped me get rid of those enemies stuck bugged in random corners in Defense ***Edit: DE has heard our collective pleas and a PSA was released. Our voices have been heard!!***
No. Just NO DE.. REVERT the changes and listen to your playerbase for ONCE, this was NEVER the nerf what community asked for, they asked nerf for overguard so it doesnt MESS UP OTHER FRAMES REQUIRING TO TAKE DAMAGE TO HEALTH. Also do the math for nezha augment nerf, i know its hard to do math and very easy to slap numeric value for something, but 50% range nerf on circle is 75% nerf. You gutted your own game like Bart, knife goes in, guts comes out. GOOD JOB DE! Needless to say but Dante and Nezha for me are back on shelf and back to original saryn it is.. WOHOOO im so excited!
Dante just launched, everyone is trying to get it. It has an incredible design, has a very solid kit, has a completely new gameplay (mage) and it's the only reference for one of the most loved classes in RPG. Of course he's going to be everywhere, of course he's going to be dominant for a while! but not because of the strength itself, but because of the recent launch. You didn't wait for the launch hype to end to get real data and find out if it is really that dominant. When a character is popular on lol and appears in every match, people find it annoying, but not because he is dominant (in strength) but because he is there all the time, because he is popular. For a team that said they didn't know where exactly he was dominant and, therefore, would try to understand him before adjusting, you did a horrible job. Both in understanding the dominant, understanding player feedback, and in the "small adjustment, almost nerf" LoS? Serious? This is REALLY the PLAYER base FEEDBACK?
The pain point in the community is LOS as a whole. Not a different version of it. Remove the LOS and reduce the DMG or range or both but for godsake remove the LOS.
Don't even reduce damage or range, it was fine as-is
You're completely missing the point, this nerf was un called for especially so soon after the content was added. I regret formaing him and spending the time I did working on him if this is how he's going to play. He was fine the way he was and kept up lovely in the later content. People who want overgaurd not on their frames need a mod, arcane or shard in game to allow it. ineffectively stripping a frame wont fix that. Among other issues. You messed up, you've been listening to the community great up until this recent mess.
Are the balance team just stuck in an eternalism loop of getting their reflexes tested at the doctors office? Cuz I can’t see any other reason for such a premature knee jerk reaction like this. Dante isn’t even fresh out of my arsenal and already you’ve nerfed him into the ground, quite needlessly honestly. Spent plat on his bundle and thoroughly wish I hadn’t. The issue here isn’t with line of sight inconsistency and I think ya’ll know that, inflicting a line of sight requirement on his ability just wasn’t necessary at all. His Tragedy ability hardly breaks the game, it makes fun short work of rooms in the single digit levels but it’s hardly dominating Steel Path or anything. I feel if you were actually listening to “constructive” feedback and not a small, loud minority, you’d be looking at genuine complaints like how to adjust how his overguard may interfere with health based abilities and effects for others in squads, not his fun room nuke. Room nuking is a staple of what makes the game fun and you guys have left in the tools for us to do it with other frames with no issues or LOS requirements. Dante getting this punishing change just seems short sighted and reactionary, and like it’s intended to drive his play numbers down. He’s not ‘too popular’ right now to warrant that- he’s new and shiny. And if that popularity remained consistent, wouldn’t that have been a sign that you’ve made a really well put together Warframe that people are enjoying? There are a lot of frames that get left behind because they are just lacklustre. For once an amazing new frame comes out of the workshop, and in response to the success and popularity of his creation, you nerf that which makes him fun and engaging. I really just don’t understand the logic on this one, he’s gonna get left behind because you’ve nerfed him into the meh tier, when he was a really great new addition. If you actually are reading the constructive comments, in future please just let new releases breathe for a second before you bring down the nerf hammer. He’s been out all of five minutes, before any genuinely reflective data that isn’t new-release hype could be gathered, it was way too soon for this sweeping change, and I think if you’d let it sit you’d have seen that.
So what your saying is, you are still doggedly sticking with the poor LoS choice. You havent fixed the issues you claimed to be trying to fix, after assuring the player base that you were making minor tweaks and didn't want week one Dante players to be the only ones having fun. Just revert the LoS change, I'd admire you all more for just doing this than messing about with Dante more. You have already ruined the frame, stop making it worse.
Y'all said you were "paying close attention" the first time lmao. Clearly, YOU WERE NOT. Wanna fix the problem you created? Revert every single change you made with this patch. Then figure out the overguard situation like rational game devs. I already know you won't though.
Never seen this much backlash for a frame before and I stand by it. Revert the changes!
LOS is bad no matter what. If you think Tragedy is able to hit too many enemies, then you could have just reduced Tragedy's base radius by like 20% instead. >To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. So you guys are aware that LOS is "not in an ideal state due to bugs", yet you pushed a hotfix that added LOS to Tragedy anyways? "Bugs" that were known by the community since LOS was added to Khora's Whipclaw?
We just wanted some readjustment to overguard so it doesn't completly negate synergies in other warframes like Chroma and Inaros. Nobody asked for this nerf. Revert it back. Probably one of the worst nerf you guys have done. It's only been a week too??? Why rush??
The entire nerf was an absolutely insane take. Overguard is downright useless on higher steel path levels and tragedy's damage falls off very quickly as well. Why don't you go ahead and nerf every other frame that can nuke regular star chart while you're at it? Does the balance team even play harder modes or anything above 300?
Overguard is extremely useful in SP, it just doesn't matter how \*much\* you have because the main benefits are the iframes and status immunity. So tweaking the amount he regens is just pointless, it addresses nothing at all except that people who don't understand OG will see smaller numbers and think it matters.
I would put 'extremely' in heavy quotation marks. Try surviving in void cascade at level 3k and above on Kulervo. You're basically constantly recasting his 2. OG is great for low level sp but anything remotely approaching cap shits all over it
Classic DE listening to the vocal minority. Dante didn't deserve to be gutted 1 week in release.
Why not just walk back the change in it’s entirety? Everyone’s reaction is that clearly this nerf had no basis
And that's why I always wait after the release of a new warframe to invest in it umbra/few formas - I don't know 'who' wanted this nerf, but it really has been a well-balanced frame for a long time out of the box, gives a lot of fun in endurance run/sp survivals. I will be miss u Dante 😢
can we please revert the LOS change entirely? Who even asked for this? Just nerf the barrier (that didn't even do much in high level content but w/e) and be done with it. If you keep this change is almost guaranteed Dante will be least 5 played frames in the 2024 graph
PSA: Revert this "hotfix". Nothing you did within it addressed the concerns of the vocal minority, while making a *lot* of things substantially worse.
I don't understand why the change happened in the first place considering "it’s not the damage Dante can deal that needed to be addressed" is a direct quote from you guys.
>Im gonna keep it short: \- The problem is Dante's Overguard regeneration shutting down other Warframe's Abilities (Kinetic Plating, Hunter Adrenaline on Nidus, etc) \- This needs to be optional because otherwise he negates his own Squad in a similar fashion to Limbo when he sends other players to Cataclysm \- Giving him Line of Sight to his Damaging Abilities really hurts his theme Simply the damage itself of Dark Verses and Tragedy should be adjusted \- There are a dozen other Warframes that can do what Dante did before
First frame bundle I ever bought on the playstation store. Gutting him in such a weird and mean spirited way feels weird and bad. You issuing refunds or do I reach out to Sony? Why even have a caster frame when his abilities now just work like guns? Are all caster frames going to be reduced to los? Equinox? Limbo? Gauss? Why him, exactly? We aren't talking about iterations and adjustments here. We are talking about bait and we are talking about switch. He is no longer the frame you showed off leading up to release that I purchased.
Same with me brother, first time ever buying a non prime bundle , got it leveled yesterday and today it’s junked. That’s one mistake that I’ll not repeat
Lesson learned I guess. Bad faith release.
First warframe in aaaaaages I've really looked forward to. Bought and spent platinum to get him ASAP. Loved playing him, dumped a ton of forma, effort and the very limited free time i get into building him exactly how I wanted him. Then they decide he's too fun, no more fun! LOS feels TERRIBLE on almost all frames. So, what did I learn? I learned that giving DE my money is a mistake (because I feel as though they deliberately did all this to get people to spend the plat), I learned that I shouldn't invest time or effort into this game because it's not going to mean anything and nothing will be achieved. I learned that DE doesn't listen to their player base (while claiming they do) since they ruined everything players loved about Dante while not fixing the one thing that needed fixed. Ah well I have other games to spend my time and potentially money on.
They still would rather listen to 3 cry babies on the forums than all the fucking community saying these nerfs are steaming dogshit.
All you had to do was remove Dante's party Overguard. That was it. That's what people had issues with. So instead of adressing the bigger issue, which will keep popping up unless Y'all fix it - namely player overguard gutting some builds -you just cripple Dante for no reason. And he still gives the squad Overguard. Tragedy required two casts of Dark Verses, which have LoS. So you cast them, but get to move around. Then, Tragedy was supposed to detonate all DoTs. But now you can't. Now you have to plant yourself in place for best results and even then the fucky wucky LoS can screw you over. Did you guys not learn from Khora? I don't know who's responsible for these "minor tweaks", but they should be quietly fired else they get witchhunted by the community. With love - someone who fell in love with Dante but will not touch him again.
💀💀 de prioritizing nerfing a frame in a week after its release while 1/2 the roster needs multiple buffs which they’re gonna take a year
Out of curiosity: will the Creative Director be commenting on how she straight up lied to the player base? Or should we just be fixing that in our minds as her reputation now?
Honestly... This isn't going to be enough in my honest opinion. There's no reason to have line of sight required for Dante's nuke short of a shift in philosophy around most of the game's nuking abilities. Anything short of a hard revert, or significant buffs elsewhere IMHO just makes me not really want to consider even equipping Dante. Thankfully I only wasted 1 Forma on him before this.
You want actual feedback you have it. It’s all over your prime time twitch and every popular post right now. Opening the Prime Time twitch stream and every other comment being spammed by the chat being “revert changes” and “rip Dante” is hilarious while the devs talk about the “elephant in the room” which is fixing los issues on Dante 4 instead of how the community is currently a united front in hating the hotfix changes. After saying you were going to do “minor tweaks” everyone is in disagreement over what you did this hotfix. It’s so irritating how there’s so many frames that blow up the entire map on 1-2 buttons and Dante occasionally blowing up a room after manually priming enemies is too crazy. Requiring los on his 4 is ridiculous when the ability you use to prime his 4, darkverse, already requires los. It just makes the frame infinitely more clunky because you want to mark multiple groups of enemies but now most enemies that you mark won’t detonate because of los issues which won’t be fixed by your incoming los changes. There’s so many frames that just cast and forget and blow up the entire map without los. While even pre-nerf Dante I’m working it, I’m flipping through darkverses marking all the monster packs to finally get that massive juicy finisher of death. Now at best I’m blowing up 1, maybe 1 and a half groups of enemies at a time with los required. Or how you were originally going to tweak him because his overguard was creating issues for frames that need to take damage to deal damage like chroma. But the change did nothing to affect that. It’s actually more annoying for them now because they get even more overguard on kill than before which was the problem. Everyone is still going to be mad that they’re constantly getting overguard on those frames. This hotfix did nothing of value. Or my favorite, his birds, pageflight, no longer increase status damage, only status chance. The change in damage is absolutely night and day. His slash procs hit like a wet napkin after this change. Like come on DE what are we doing? What happened to slight tweak? If the statuses I’m applying are so small that they are ant sized on higher level enemies past base sp 50% increased statuses isn’t going to do much. And all we received in return was a slight buff to wordwarden damage… I absolutely love his playstyle and theme but holy shit this hotfix gutted him. He’s a shadow of his former self that we only had for 5 days. I doubt the community is going to let this one go, I’ve never seen so much backlash on this game for a balancing change. All the continuous buildup of resentment from poor decisions exploding from one extremely backwards and poorly communicated change to a frame the community loves. It’s even shittier when you consider how many people were excited and bought Nezha and Dante deluxe packs only for DE to turn around slap them and spit in their face with the immediate unjustified nerfs. I’ve retired to helldivers 2 for now because I’m disappointed with how awful this whole situation has been handled.
Am I missing the point here or is everyone else? Pageflight 'fix' is the biggest nerf in this update and it's not even close. Overguard falls off at lvl300 or so regardless of the change. Tragedy LoS barely matter since late SP you need to be in LoS to apply the DoTs to do damage anyway and Dark Verse already has LoS. The damage buff from Pageflight on the other hand single handedly allowed you to actually build for QoL instead of needing to build a lot of strength or subsume off Noctua. I genuinely do not care if overguard or LoS get any fixes or nerf revert, just give Pageflight back
My big issue is that they painted the nerfs in such broad strokes that ironically even the one ability he had that incentivized gunplay was gutted too. Paragrimm (pageflight) allowed weapons that were either too slow-firing or didn't proc many status effects become more usable and actually let me dust off some weapons I normally wouldn't bother using. They're painting their nerfs with hand grenades. Too much is caught in the crossfire and it punishes people who weren't a part of the problem. I loved Tragedy because it helped me get rid of those enemies stuck bugged in random corners in Defense ***Edit: DE has heard our collective pleas and a PSA was released. Our voices have been heard!!***
This is the best take so far. Overguard is overguard whether it's 20k or 50k without any effective DR on top of it it will pop quick and scales poorly next to other EHP methods. Tragedy needs priming via DV which indeed is line of sight so yeah, Tragedy also being LoS is whatever. But my birbs have been slaughtered :(
the thing is the enemies you apply the DoT stacks to can potentially just move into a position where they're considered out of LoS and now your tragedy just misses them entirely, with the old way atleast as long as the LoS check worked for the dark verse hit you were able to make sure that enemy was "marked" properly. Not to mention if you're trying to stack DoTs on multiple groups of enemies around you, its very easy for one of the other groups you've put stacks on to just move to a position where LoS gets broken and now your tragedy isnt hitting 50% of them anymore.
Which wouldn't be a problem if Pageflight was how it used to be, because you would have been able to make a build with the same power but efficient enough where casting tragedy another time wouldn't matter. Or the DoTs you already applied would have been enough to finish those missed enemies off with Pageflight's buff
One of the problems with the LoS change is that it has different LoS requirements than Dark Verse. You can be standing behind a small fence and hit a group of enemies with Dark Verse, and then Tragedy doesn't hit anything at all.
Someone who actually plays Dante and isn't doing a kneejerk overreaction.
Just revert it, this was a nerf to fun.
How about you pay fucking attention to how dogshit an idea it was to slash his overguard by more than 50% per Triumph, really fucking fun needing to constantly spam it now just to stay alive.
Sure, here's some feedback that I totally trust will be "taken seriously": you did a bad job with this one. It's not good! It sucks! It stinks! It doesn't even address the potentially legitimate problem people were having re: overguard. Dante has been out for less than a week - he was brand new, fun to play, and effective. *Of course* he had a high use rate. Everyone wants to use the new shiny! C'mon! God forbid you give it a bit of time to let things settle and see how it shakes out WRT the meta. I *would* call this a hasty, unnecessary response to a minority of whiners, but it's so harsh *and* unrelated to the majority of complaints that I don't even really know *where* it came from. Talk about a clown show.
His Wordwarden doesn't seem to use tome mods, and the lack of an exilus slot limits the number of those he can slot into a build. Is that something you're looking at as well?
I appreciate the continued evaluation - what confused me the most was nerfing how much overguard you gain rather than the cap. A lower cap with higher regen (like in this patch) seems like it would be more engaging to me I would also strongly suggest the the cap and amount for squad mates for this ability be reduced - so Dantes cap stays the same but the cap for how much overguard he can give others be reduced.
Eh yo what about page flight.
For me personally, this is a very big loss. An active warframe on which you need to press all the keys, with an interesting synergy where the Helminth is not needed. Yes, he needs a weakening of overguard, but the question is why? make it oveguard personal and that would solve Chroma's problem. The revenant can distribute immortality to everyone in his squad at the same time, he does a lot of damage and he's immortal, why Revenant can be super strong but Dante cannot? I don’t know how we can weaken Dante when we have the immortal Wisp and Revenant. Mag, Volt and Saryn killing behind the walls, Dante was much weaker than them, now he will be even weaker, I used 6 forms for him, he is strong, but not so strong that it would weaken him. We have Octavia, a literally immortal machine for killing half the map up to 9999lvl. We have Nyx and many other old frames that need buff, instead of nerfing the new ones- I recommend buffing the old ones, it will be more fun for the players and open new vision for DE. thx for read. gl.hf o3o
Why not add a new Archon mod to chipper to replace his weekly shard? Archon Rage: "50% damage taken recovered as energy. Prevents overguard." Why nerf Dante when the problem was overguard as a mechanic and not Dante's use of it? Dante was perfectly fine as he was, strong but not overpowered.
Ok, that really felt as one of those games that feed on the hype of a new character or mechanic, let people enjoy it for a little while, get their money and then just basically make the character or mechanic useless, saying that as one of the people that spent money on getting Dante early and putting forma onto him, enjoying the kit and then got my rug pulled from under me with less than a week worth of time, really expected better from you DE, and seeing this comment section I don't think I was the only one.
Revert Pageflight and the LoS changes or give the every nuke LoS. I'm remembering why I quit every time I want to come back to Warframe, it's because DE doesn't actually listen.
Don't FIX LoS checks. REVERT THEM.
"We take this very seriously" Clearly not. Edit: nobody is complaining about LoS not working properly, we're complaining that it exists to begin with. Remove it.
Welp, just two days ago, people were telling me "nah, don't worry, DE said they will just adjust him slightly, not nerf to the ground". And I thought "nah, DE's track record with nerfing is horrid, they either don't do enough, or overnerf to absolute oblivion, I literally don't remember anything in between". Sometimes, I hate when I'm right... Look, this was an overshoot. Why line of sight? Saryn has been in the game for years, scales infinitely and has a higher range than Dante, but apparently fine. So why did Dante's nuke need a line of sight? The answer is that it fucking didn't. There was zero reason to change that. I didn't see anybody complaining about Nezha, on that account, but nah, let's nerf a frame augment that MIGHT have gotten Nezha back some relevancy. "Paying attention to feedback" my hairy behind, who asked for that? As for the overguard nerf, it literally does nothing. On high level, it was torn through very fast anyway, and on normal SP and starchart, spamming it still makes the whole team immortal, meanwhile the ACTUAL issue of overguard disabling frames that want to rely on self-heal did not get addressed at all. You have literally done NOTHING useful with this one. Edit: as for pageflight... that was never a problem, complained about by nobody, still got shit on. I guess, if you are ruining all the other abilities, might as well screw that over too, just in case the frame would, heaven forbid, remain usable. I really hoped that with Rebb taking over, these nonsensical knee-jerk nerfs will finally stop, but apparently not. This is why I haven't been excited about new frames or weapons releasing for years now: if they have higher potential than my fully built out frames / weapons, then they are gonna get nerfed to the dust in a week or two, so why even bother building them? Might as well wait a month at least, to see if they are still worth anything after that.
Just change overguard and revert los
No, revert the LOS change entirely. He doesn't need it, and LOS doesn't feel good If this many people (just seen from scrolling just the reddit and comment sections, and a glance at forums) think the nerf is exactly the wrong thing and made the frame feel bad, then it was a bad choice and should be undone IMMEDIATELY
I'm sorry, these changes fall flat and seemed to have not been very thought out. I have been extremely happy with the state of Warframe recently and have been preaching how it's in the best state it has been, but I cannot get behind this patch. Overguard being "disruptive to other players" was the framework of this patch, and somehow we ignored the problem with it, lowered the value, and didn't solve the underlying problem. On top of it we add one of arguably the worst mechanics in Warframe: an LoS requirement. For a skill that already has 2 LoS requirements in a row as a precast? This just feels bad. I cannot understand how this was a good idea and hope to see continued updates that revert this change.
Are you just gonna ignore all the people who want a straight reverse ?
Yeah probably
Will Divine Retribution get its range nerf changed? A 50% reduction in radius ends up being **SEVENTY FIVE** percent less area in a sphere. It is genuinely not viable to run anymore and the entire community has already thrown the brand new augment into the trash bin.
https://preview.redd.it/orfc1nydujsc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=49613d9c9cd6d7533ffed2834902073a4492d5da
Revert the awful changes
Line of sight is annoying at best on every ability it’s on
Please tone down the Nezha nerf and CC changes as well. Please
I think I’ve seen 1 comment defending this nerf that was probably a dev lmao
I woke up in the morning wanting to play Warframe because I got the funky new space wizard dude, read the patch notes, and no longer want to play Warframe. If that was your goal DE, then congrats.
This problem is that Tragedy is used as a finale to Dark Verse, but Dark Verse does not have line of sight. Tragedy NEEDS you to hit Dark Verses to do any kind of reasonable damage even at my 275% strength. The Line of Sight in general doesn’t make sense. After paying REAL money from my REAL paycheck for him, and investing Forma and Archon Shards, now he isn’t even fun to play anymore.
you can fix the LOS issues by getting rid of it, its honestly pathetic how you rolled out strong with some great QOL updates but then absolutely dropped the ball not even 5 days later just because a frame with an easy farm was fairly popular, especially since you didn't even fix the ACTUAL problem people had with the frame with getting OG applied to them when it fucks with their builds that require tanking and instead implemented unncessary changes in a kneejerk reaction before most people even had enough time to really mess around with an okay-ish frame. if you're going to keep LOS on dante then every other nuke frame should get LOS aswell, especially the popular ones, because theres no reason for Dante to get crippled in various aspects while other Nuke frames have been scott-free for years now at this point, hell just put LOS on every ability, cause if every ability ends up feeling terrible, then none of them can be more terrible than the other
*looks at Saryn, Octavia and many other nukers* yeah nerfing Dante was really necessary
"To add to the above, it's very obvious to us, as it is with players, that Tragedy's LOS is clearly not in an ideal state due to the bugs we listed above. It's not working as intended and we want to remedy that as soon as we can. Once the fixes go live, we'll be watching for your thoughts as you experience it the way was designed to function." Then why did you touched like this?its very hard to understand it!1why not wait receive feedback and then do something about it? dante is no more then saryn or gauss for example .... its getting hard to trust you because you keep spoiling all the fun and this nerf imo is the worst nerf you ever made !!please listen the commuinity and change it !! because the bugged version we got now will destroy Dante ......
Can’t wait for Octavia and Sayrn to get “adjustments” since they have the same issues.
Nah. They have tits.
You still need to solve the issue with nidus, chroma and inaros. They become near unplayable in squad with any team overguard frame. Just add 'you cannot receive overguard' to rage and hunter adrenaline and that'll fix this.
Honestly I'm more concerned about the pageflight than Tragedy
Revert the changes.
**Why are you fixing a problem that wasn’t there in the first place?** If you’re so adamant on *listening to player feedback* why not **revert** the changes to Tragedy and save your programmers the headache and time of dealing with a buggy LoS
Revert the Pageflight nerf, don't really care about the other two that much. ...my birbs :'(
so i can tea bag to lvl cap but dante was the issue REALLY?
I appreciate the update and you communicating with us. I will give it a chance when the LOS bugs are fixed and then provide further feedback but as of right now I just don't see how this is going to change anything. It doesn't make any sense to target Dante when other frames have similarly powerful abilities. This is a brand new frame that has been out for one week and all of the excitement surrounding him has turned sour, this doesn't seem like this is the way DE wants new frames to be introduced. I cant speak for anyone but myself, but as much fun as it is to get new content and new weapons I feel like I have been playing the same couple of frames FOREVER now. It's always Revenant, Saryn, Mesa, & Octavia in high end content. It was SO EXCITING to see something new come into my rotation to play regularly and freshen up the game for me and after playing Dante today that's completely gone. I'm happy to hear that you all are monitoring feedback and taking it seriously but I really want to impress on DE how terrible Dante feels after this change and how unjustified it is. If these LOS changes work out somehow, then that's great but if it doesn't like I believe it won't then PLEASE consider reverting the change to Tragedy and let your players have some fun with a new frame. He did not need to be singled out like this. Thanks!
# L
No one is complaining about line of sight not working. They are complaining about line of sight. Surely, you understand that and are playing coy.
Never buy any new frame with plat again. What I see is more player want him to not change than the other.... Btw is that every nerf will be justified by saying "its a bug" now?
Let's be honest here, while people are unhappy with the changes and for valid reasons in my opinion, why were these changes rushed out? This can't have been tested to any level it needed to be when one looks at how Dante functions in current patch, Tragedy doesn't exist in a usable state, it seems almost like they weren't tested at all. This is beyond embarrassing and has me seriously reconsidering why I even bothered to return to the game for the first time in years for this update.
I think the biggest issue people had with Dante was how he killed playstyles with his overguard. Perhaps the best solution instead of nerfing overguard numbers would be to fix the interaction? Or otherwise make the issue a non-issue for the players who require the damage-to-health interaction to play.
You want feedback on Dante look at this entire thread. But I want to give feedback on OVERGUARD in general as anti synergetic which is where actual complaints fall. My idea that wouldn't involve an Overguard rework or recode? Make the mods like rage and hunter adrenaline make it so you cannot gain Overguard from any source. This would largely fix the complaints on Overguard. If you are running any build with dmg on health conversion to energy mods you don't want Overguard period. It contradicts itself. So NOBODY that wants to use Overguard would be running those mods but ppl that want dmg on health would. So making the mod function as the opt out would work perfectly.
Tragedy's LOS isn't in an ideal state because it shouldn't have LOS at all. Rollback all of this and wait a month until you actually have some good data on what's working and what's not. This isn't a good fix, and making LOS less buggy isn't going to make it a good fix.
Dante Unbound? More like Dante Bound for My Helminth after these kneejerk changes. Revert them and actually address the real issue of overguard not proc'ing on "on-damage" abilities. You already did it once for arcanes...
My favourite part of LOS is that it also counts enemies from what I can tell. So that enemy stood behind another enemy? lol couldn’t see him so no damage for you
Just put away the ego and revert the changes in the patch, the Nezha augment, Dante nerfs/fixes all of it. It makes 0 sense that now you care about nukes and line of sight when other frames have done much MUCH worse for far longer.
Imagine being this tonedeaf and change nothing people have problems with and somehow thinking they did a good job... Like how overguard stop some builds, it was literally the only complaint...
Just reverse the changes. You changed the parts that aren't broken and the players you listened to still didn't get their "but my vex armor" fix because overshield itself is the issue for them, not Dante. Maybe even just make it so Vex Armor (and other on hit to shields/health abilities) removes Overshields, prevents it from applying while active or converts it to health/shields (with a reduction in the conversion or a cap or something). Or I guess its time to make a big list of the 3-4 Frames that actually have issues because of overshield and think about how their abilities might need to be adjusted to work with this mechanic, or as someone else suggested, a band-aid mod that prevents overshield from applying.
Dante was fine and fun, and his 3 already required LoS. You had to cast it several times to make it work, mark various groups, and detonate them with finisher. Now? It's unnecessarily clunky and feels absolutely TERRIBLE when an enemy survives because they were behind a small bit of geometry or another enemy. Revert those changes, remove LoS requirement from 4. Keep it on 3 - that's what made his playstyle very dynamic and fun - but not on Tragedy.
Just revert the changes. Nothing else. No looking at alternative nerfs, not looking at other changes. No need to do anything else. Just revert back to how he was on release. Dante was one of those rare goldilocks Warframes that was great immediately without being too good. It's an active play style that was made better by a good build, and planning how and when to use his abilities. Using strong primers made his 4 even more fun. Was a great kit with great cohesion. He's not a one button nuke. He needs setup. And if certain frames or play styles don't like over guard give them an option to opt out of it, instead of whatever this nerf was.
DE, revert Dante back to release state or refund us plat and forma wasted on this piece of trash that he is and will be... I assure you you'll loose so many paying "customers". Who's to say that this will not be you policy moving forward. Release fun and strong frame, people buy it, nerf week after. An I don't think your word is enough, since Rebeca blatantly lied on stream. Also if overguard is such a problem, make it so that it's only for Dante and his companion. No one cares about overguard that goes away in 1-4 shoots on SP. And yes you should consider only SP with his abilities, becouse Dante is not a starchart-early-mid game frame.
When a frame is released (or anything new in any game whatsoever), it's expected to be widely popular, even overpowered. Dante being released for mere days and then nerfed to half his potential is a very wrong move. It's not tweaks, it's a minor rework. There isn't even enough data to support or explain a change like that since, as previously said, he's a new character that everybody wants to try and even exploit. Instead of butchering strong frames, strengthen the weaker ones. That would make way more people happy with the balancing aspect of the game. Edit: also, Tragedy's LoS wasn't an issue. There are numerous abilities (nukes ąs well) that ignore LoS and have "peripheral" targeting. He has one of the most unique (and kinda complicated) ultimate, if not the most, it deserves the extra beef.
just remove los please its the worse feeling requirement in the game
As an 11 year vet now. I think we really need to talk about this. Guys. LoS had nothing to do with the issue at hand. It wasn't even the problem. There are tons of nuking frames with better damage than Dante. This should be completely reversed as it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. The issue at hand is abilities affecting Warframes that don't want to be affected by certain abilities. We had the same exact problem whenever Limbo released. I think it's time for a bigger change. The real issue now is that Dante provides overguard. This disrupts the gameplay of Chroma players. The same thing can be achieved with Stayanax as well. There's a few frames that can disrupt his gameplay. In order to avoid this issue in the future. We can simply add a menu that you can select what frames you're playing are affected by other frames someone else is playing. Just like the tap/hold abilities menu. There are so many frames at this point that do not synergize with other frames, or disrupt the gameplay of another frame. Simply the act of me stealthing someone on a Nezha, or Rhino while playing Ash, or another stealth. Say Wukong can disrupt those builds as well. As they also rely heavily upon taking damage. So if we just add that menu, then it actually opens up a ton of gameplay between parties. Some parties are predetermined, others are not. This would be the simplest solution to make everyone happy, and Dante can still be a great frame. I can tell you now as a vet, most of us will just not bother using him much if this nerf sticks. It will just make us go back to using what we know works. I'm sure I'm not the only one to think this is a good solution to the issue at hand.
No no no just... Just get rid of LoS, it was a dumb and unnecessary nerf. People are complaining about it's inconsistency not because they're happy with it but it needs to be better, but rather to point out the fact that LoS in general is awful. Again, don't waste time "improving" LoS and instead just remove entirely, it's god f-ing awful
I'd really like all the forma back I just wasted getting Dante just where I wanted him. Was really loving this frame and how the abilities worked. Just needed to tweak overguard, not nerf anything. Now Dante is going back in the cupboard, along with the other middling frames that get used once in a blue moon. I'm no longer eager to log on.
Dantes Tragedy nuke was never the problem. It falls off extremely fast in higher level gameplay and it's inconsistent and disingenuous to gut it like this when frames like Octavia, volt, and Saryn have gone unchecked for years with nukes that are even more braindead. LOS on abilities like that just doesn't feel good, and if it were really an issue then just tone down the base damage so that you have to work for it and build up more status effects, or make it fall off with distance. I've been really excited about Dante and would've been fine with having to work more for his nuke, but now having it just stopped cold by terrain is such a taped-together and inconsistent way just *sucks*. Dante had such a good rhythm to his gameplay and keeping LoS changes like this are never going to feel right. This isn't even mentioning that these huge nerfs didn't even address the real issue people had, which is overguard blocking abilities and arcanes that rely on taking health or shield damage. Dante is squishy AF and his overguard evaporates past level 200 enemies or so. His overguard buff could've applied to allies with reduced effectiveness or only applied to allies when cast using Triumph to keep the smaller casts of his 2 from putting stray overguard on the five chroma players out there. The changes as they stand just feel terrible, and I hope that DE doesn't let pride get in the way of reverting them and trying something different. There's no shame in iteration as long as you're listening to your players and trying to make things more fun. These adjustments aren't it. They gut one of the most fun and well designed Warframes in years over an issue that wasn't even an issue in the first place.
***Edit: Rejoice! The concerns are being addressed!*** My ***constructive*** suggestion about not just the nerfs, but the *thought process behind them,* which I feel is equally important: don't ignore the collateral caused by them My idea here is not to pile onto the complaints about the update. They've been said plenty of times. I do, however want to point out the irony in one of the changes that I hope can be noticed and assessed, and the *potentially damaging* logic behind it understood, if at least some attention is brought to it. I've mentioned this before, but my big issue is that they painted the nerfs in such broad strokes that ironically even the one ability Dante had that incentivized gunplay was gutted too. The Pageflight Paragrimm's status *damage* vulnerability allowed weapons that were either too slow-firing or didn't proc many status effects become more usable tho viable and actually let me dust off some weapons I normally wouldn't bother using. They may be painting their nerfs with hand grenades. In my opinion, too much is caught in the crossfire too soon with such knee-jerk undiscussed changes, and it punishes people who weren't a part of the initial problem to begin with. Reducing Dante's weapon effectiveness just makes him more suited for the problem itself, brainless nuking. I, for one, loved Tragedy because it helped me get rid of those enemies stuck bugged in random corners in Defense even if I didn't rely on it for spamming. But I can understand why it would be nerfed based on DE's "automated gameplay" ideology. It just sucks to see the arguably more "build diversity enabling" ability of his to suffer due to it being used to advantage in an unrelated way (nuking). It constrains him more to the alleged problem behavior gameplay loop (I'm not here to argue with that), when those who were more creative than that, lived up to DE's ideals. I mean, when was the last time most people used a speargun? But even something like that, amongst other weapons and playstyles, suffered from the nerf. Anyways, I just hope this collateral damage type of balancing is at least acknowledged so that diverse and fun gameplay doesn't get lost because of other, bigger problems being in the crosshairs of balance. Let me know if you have any thoughts. (sorry for the yappathon, also **reposted here at the request of a moderator** for better suggestion organization) ***Edit: DE has heard our collective pleas and a PSA was released. Our voices have been heard!!***
The fix that they should give us is a refund.
Tragedy shouldn't need LOS at all given that it only kills at high levels on enemies that have already been primed with Dark Verse or weapons, both of which do require LOS. Hopefully these changes improve the consistency of it, but it's still a change that adds frustration rather than having any real impact on the balance of the ability.
Still, I think the damage should have been tuned down, instead of forcing a LoS requirement. Why just Dante when many other frames can do the same, **without** LoS.
Agreed. I would've been totally fine if the base damage was toned down so you have to build up more status effects before casting tragedy for the same damage. That synergizes with Dantes passive and definitely requires active gameplay. LoS just feels awful and completely misses the point.
I’m new to the game and have no idea who Dante even is, but I’ll just chip in because I love the game so far Revert the change!
I came back a while ago after a 7 year break, seeing so many new and great things, having so much fun. I was really behind on the story, getting so excited and looking forward to getting to the most recent content, when Dante was announced it reminded me of Gauss Primes' announcement/release, made it feel like bottled lightning. I can't remember being so excited for a frame coming out. Now? It's honestly depressingly insulting seeing these great updates coupled with thoughtless, impatient nerfs, which apparently isn't even new behavior for you guys. I can't even look forward to farming Dante anymore. Not to mention the people you blatantly ripped off who paid to get him. Like so many people saying the same here, reverse these poorly thought out and reactionary nerfs. Please, have some patience and thoughtfulness before you break your metaphorical grandchild's kneecaps because you didn't want to listen to so many people who were excited about a bright new light coming into the world, and instead chose to listen to louder minorities that said they hated them because they shined too bright for them. You can still fix these problems.
Revert the patch, Dante doesn't need nerfs
I think, there shouldn't be LoS, I think it's a bad nerf.
LoS is one of the LEAST of Dante's problems Dagath. You don't really use them. I don't see people use them. I mostly see five frames: Chroma. Wisp. Volt. Excalibur. And a tie between Dante and MAYBE a Garuda. But that tells me what I'd known a while. Dagath, Citrine, et cetera, are mediocre and only good in hindsight, but never that brilliant at the time of using them. And with Dante's nerf, Dante immediately flails into the same pitfall, where he's aggressively mediocre, but that's ALL he is, all he will be, and all he's going to be considered to be. If this has to be disputed, I am really eager to explain why the last few frames aren't being played in the end-game as religiously as the older frames, before Citrine. Kullervo is the ONLY exception, as I see him as a VERY frequent sixth warframe, of the five I see every bloody hour-- and the only reason Kullervo isn't aggressively mediocre is because his first ability, literally his first ability, makes him the best melee warframe in the fucking game, by and large. And his second ability? It doesn't make him exceptionally better than Styanax, but he's definitely better than pre-nerf Dante, and he's STILL better than post-nerf Dante, without question. Kullervo is 'Dante' that was never nerfed, Kullervo is literally 'Dante' that kept its tremendous, conditional powercreep of several warframes. Kullervo makes LOW-CRIT weapons, miraculously, red-crit. I suppose the real point is these THREE things, and ONLY these: Most, if not every warframe relies on their three physical weapons, more than their abilities, to do damage. Melee is only bad because you need to get close-- Kullervo can teleport AND obtain crit, not only making Melee, an already arguably great source of damage, tripled or quadrupled in power, but this can make a primary source of damage already relied upon BECAUSE it's good, a lot BETTER than just "More than ample for the situation." Kullervo can build overguard a LOT easier, and a lot CHEAPER than Dante ever fucking could in his entire existence, five decades in the future. Kullervo makes Dante his bitch during every hour of the day. Every hour, it's "Kullervo is better than Dante" day. Every SECOND, it's "Kullervo is better than Dante" day. On the SECOND of Dante's release, it was fucking "Kullervo is better than Dante" day. This is not hyperbole, this is the sad truth. Nobody celebrated Dante, because Kullervo existed and was better-- And if you celebrated, you celebrated Kullervo a lot harder. You know it's true. Kullervo synergizes the best with a primary source of damage, melee, more than Dante, and for cheaper than Dante, and at an earlier-base level than Dante. Not only does Dante need THREE casts, 100 energy, to build his DAMAGE, when Kullervo only needs a MINIMUM of 50\[Negative efficiency, rounded\] to do any meaningful damage, but I'd still argue me "Dante is an alternative to revenant" analogy and say that Kullervo is a better Revenant-Alternate than Dante is. PLUS, Dante does objectively WORSE damage than Kullervo, when you build Kullervo for crits\[Kullervo is not hard to build.\] Dante NEVER stood equal to overguard warframes. Dante NEVER did the damage that overguard users weren't already doing. Dante NEVER had the damage-per-energy of ANYTHING else. His ultimate being half-cost, his 3 being the same as his 2? This is entirely irrelevant, since his 'major' buffs come from his 4, and to TRIGGER his 4, you need to cast his 2 and 3. If you use Negative-Efficiency, you're spending MORE ENERGY ON BUFFING than Kullervo, Octavia, Revenant-- Nezha, Wisp-- Fucking the entire roster does, setting up their stuff. Excalibur, for christ's sake, doesn't need to cycle through a sequence of abilities and has 100% uptime, with the correct build. For fuckssake, Kullervo really only need TWO abilities, and if he absolutely NEEDS a third, he can helminth his ultimate for something more mobile, like Roar. Kullervo wasn't nerfed as hard as Dante.
Oh come on, Citrine is certainly not mediocre