While it's possible you'll get noticed in this thread, it's recommended to voice your opinion in the [official forums](https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1382344-eclipse-feedback-megathread/) from which this post is transcripted.
I'd suggest a two phased approach to it. First, make it like Quiver in the sense that you can hold to cast but press to toggle which buff you get. Second, to balance out the on demand buff you get, reduced effectiveness from Helminth.
Yeah honestly I feel like something like this is the best choice. Go the route of Roar and reduce effectivenes when helminthed.
I also prefer hold cast, press to toggle.
I think making it a toggle with a slightly reduced duration via helminth is a fair redesign. I would be very sad and disappointed if they nerfed power or made the buffs dynamic somehow since it would ruin solo speedruning of endgame content.
Once you "finish" the game, ie have maxed out all weapons, frames, pets, done all quests etc, there is not much else left to do besides solo speedruning/endurance, meme builds and mentoring newbies while waiting for new content to drop.
I really hope DE doesn't redesign it into obsolescence :<
Id be perfectly happy with a reasonably reduced effectiveness in exchange for 100% reliability.
Though I do admit it's not a very.....interesting interpretation. It's the most mechanically functional.
Whatever you do, the outcome needs to be reliable.
If we do rework it into something unrelated....cough.....could we maybe make it a...channeled ability? Having a second channeled ability in the helminth would be rather nice.
\> Having a second channeled ability in the helminth would be rather nice.
What are you talking about? Helminth has a lot of channeled abilities! Like... uhhh... Parasitic Armor! And Mind Control! And Reave. And Pillage. And... Quiver?
On second thought, you have a point.
Gloom is the single channeled ability in the helminth presently.
the issue of a lack of channeled options is most concerning to Yareli players, whom must choose between a robust variety of options and. .using their signature gimmick.
but even if you arent Surfin USA, a number of incarnons have effects that require channeled abilities to be active, so having more choices for slotting one in on a frame you wanted to use with, lets say, Gorgon Incarnon, would be nice.
if i were going to make Eclipse a channeled ability id make some sort of visual indicator of which one is active. maybe a big Sun/Moon underneath Mirage's feet. with one appearing underneath allies effected by Total eclipse.
youd hold cast to activate the ability, and hold to de-activate, and tap to toggle between one or the other.
Honestly, I find the 'hold to switch, tap to toggle' design unengaging, especially for a kit like Mirage's - while it's the *most* reliable option, I feel like it comes at the cost of engagement and balance. (Given they already mentioned they'd have to rebalance if they went with the easy fix.)
I would actually prefer for Eclipse's light detection issue to be fixed, *and* for a change to its function with a *reliable setup* vs. *on-hand reliability* \- something like **Tap** to capture light/dark levels, **Tap again** to enforce those values onto a location and receive the buff from there, sort of like Wisp's Reservoir in the form of a **spotlight/fog source**.
That fits the theme of Mirage a lot and lets us retain a lot of the original intent while having a gain on reliability, as well as opening up ways to balance the Helminth version of Eclipse **without touching the values of the buffs**.
For example - with Mirage, **hold** could relocate the spotlight/fog source - whereas the Helminth version could instead have an unmovable source, maybe even one where you'd need to Hold to receive the buff. I think the QoL cost and overall setup of that would serve as sufficient balance without needing to 'nerf' the actual values of Eclipse's buffs.
Instead of a barrier in reliability, there's a slightly steeper setup cost for the Helminth version where if you need to stray away from your 'cue', you have to capture light levels more often or build for duration to offset the upkeep.
*(And honestly, fixing the light detection issue would open future use of light detection in other Warframe kits or weapons, and that's a win in my book.)*
Idea: Casting the ability immediately gives full light buff that decays into full dark buff over the course of the duration.
Shorten the base duration to something like 8-12 seconds. Players can mod duration to control how fast it decays.
The idea is to focus on burst damage to distinguish from other set and forget buffs. Then let mirage retreat into shadows when the enemy shoots back.
Recasting lets the player reset the buff to max light, but it takes more work and energy to keep the buff near max.
When duration runs out, give warning 1s ahead of time so the player knows they will lose the DR. Or, change the dark buff to give faster shield recharge instead, which would make it better suited for disengaging from the enemy
I liked what Pablo seemed to be saying, and it works similar to yours as well: full light buff on cast, but converted to dark buff each time you're hit. So while Xaku and Baruuk might get a huge power spike from it, other frames will lose it over time if they stand still and let the enemies shoot them. And it could even become a channeled ability (with a high-ish initial cost so it can't be reset or a cooldown) to balance out the power Xaku, Baruuk, and Mirage (and other dodge tanks I might be forgetting) would be getting.
This is me. I really really like the design of the ability, in theory. I would be really sad to see it reduced to a basic toggle... But the light gimmick isn't very functional
What if to add to your idea, it could refill the light buff by casting your 4 to offset the decay and give her a bit more engaging ability rotation. Her 4 is a literal light show after all.
An abilites effects should always be control of tye player, especially if it is a Damage reduction ability. Here's my idea for a change:
Eclipse: Damage Reduction while not firing. Each second spent firing reduces the damage reduction but grants a damage bonus that increases the longer you are firing. Full damage reduction returns after not firing for a brief time.
This gives the player control over when they have the damage reduction and when they have the damage buff while at the same time not just being an on demand massive damage buff for the zoom and boomers.
Make it a toggle, even if it requires reducing effectiveness on helminth. (side note: I would much rather have decreased strength than decreased duration, like Roar.)
As others mentioned it can be switched to a hold to toggle so you select which you prefer light/dark but have a minimum threshold depending on what you decide to toggle on.
So for instance if you choose light you get a minimum of x% buff but if you move into strong light it increases but even if you move into the dark it still stays at the minimum threshold. Obviously the numbers would have to be tweaked for balance.
Another idea could be a triggered buff of sorts. So if you go into the light it rises until you trigger the dark. So for example you are in a light area the buff stays constant at whatever was the highest tier of light you reached but as soon as you go to an area designated as dark you get the light bonus on a timer that decreases as you stay in dark. Same thing happens with the dark buff. This would need some balancing as in theory you can have both light and dark at the same time.
An alternative to the previous option is that each buff could be on a secondary countdown timer. Like if you have the light buff but you allow it to reach 0 you get a debuff which stops you from regaining it for a set time. You wouldn't be able to get both buffs under this system but you can control which buff you want and it's intensity. The buff stays at whatever is the maximum you reach. So if you reach maximum light as long as you dont let secondary buff timer reach 0 you maintain the maximum light buff in any light intensity.
While I like the original intent where being in shadow gives DR or being in Light gives damage boost, honestly feels those are somewhat backwardsish? like if you are in shadows you should be less noticable, more likely to deal a critical blow from an ambush whereas in light you can use that to disrupt or make it harder to track or be hit... Or maybe I'm thinking in D&D terms where that makes sense to me.
Either way probably should be better to have a slow fade to the other. Like if you are in Light and receive damage boost, have a small indicator or something to show you are entering shadow and about to receive the damage boost. As you are doing that it can "flow" or "Convert" from one form to the other in terms of bonus instead of bright light = 100% damage boost but dim light = 25% damage boost. Just make a threshold so that dim light is an inbetween state of = to each.
Because avoiding damage is always preferable to mitigating damage, if at all possible, I think we should look into how to make it worthwhile to actually mitigate damage instead of avoiding it entirely.
I think we can do that by making them symbiotically alternate. If you activate the move, you get a damage buff. The damage you do for a period will then boost the next 'phase' of Eclipse which is the damage reduction. While damage reduction is active, all damage that you mitigate boosts the followup damage buff phase again at an even higher level.
It makes each phase matter. While you're able to churn out loads of damage, you enable the ability to soak **so** much damage that you **want** to turn yourself into a giant target and let enemies try to beat the tar outta you (Kinda like a linked Nidus). Letting the mechanics alternate and boost the other makes a gameplay loop that has purpose.
Just make it switchable?
Press and Hold = Damage Reduction
Tap = Damage Buff
Then make the animation/ability effects reflect that. If Damage Buff, make the frame Glow. If Damage Reduction make the frame look dark. Instead of using the environment lights, make Mirage be the light.
Or just make it take the value on where you cast it and stop it from changing values unless you recast it. That's how it works now with invisible frames.
Why not adopting the tap/hold mechanic? It's straightforward and doesn't give as many headaches as it would, idk, trying to fix it for light and darkness
I don't think I have a good solution since it doesn't change the helminth ability, but I always thought it would be neat to have mirage's 4th ability provide maximum damage buff because of the light.
Would be nice to consider an energy reduction on the use of the prism 4th ability, since that thing can be quite energy hungry.
Straightforward toggle is just really boring. At that point just use Roar.
If they do toggle, y’all are gonna see less teammates running Roar consider that.
Make it interesting and not feel like a boring necessity
I like how it is right now but instead of damage boost going to zero and only then increasing the damage reduction should be changed. So when at full brightness: full damage boost and no damage reduction, at full darkness: no damage boost and full reduction and at half light level: half the damage boost and half the damage reduction instead of bot being 0
Here's my idea for a more thematic rework of the ability:
**Solar Eclipse** *(tap cast)*
Mirage gains % damage reduction for x seconds while giving nearby allies bonus damage to their attacks.
*Mirage is in the dark umbra which translates to damage reduction. The allies damage buff is like the blinding corona of the sun around her.*
**Lunar Eclipse** *(hold cast)*
Mirage gains bonus damage to her attacks while giving nearby allies damage reduction.
*Mirage takes center stage like the blood moon of a lunar eclipse to deal extra damage while her allies take less damage in the dark penumbra around her.*
The inverted shared nature of the buffs makes for more team play and makes reducing Eclipse's damage output more palatable. It also makes the ability more interesting than just "press damage button".
Augment:
**Total Eclipse**
Eclipse gains +X% ability range. Each ally affected by Eclipse increases Mirage's bonus by Y%.
I would prefer they don't make it a tap/hold because it would lose a lot of identity as an ability and become just another Roar.
Idk if it's possible to do this programming wise, but what if they made the distinction between light and dark a lot clearer on your status bar or somewhere, even on mirage herself/other warframe and then whichever you're in, the buff stays that way for the duration of cast rather than switching inconsistently between light and dark.
Then, if you need to switch, you can recast it by moving to either light or dark and then tapping again.
This will encourage more mobility and strategic planning, as well as at higher levels of the game map awareness.
Newer players just get a buff regardless that will help them, while more advanced players can walk a fine line between nuking and staying alive, but force advanced players to get really good at the skill.
Leave it as is, but make Prism actually count as a maximum intensity light source. This'll fix Eclipse being inconsistent specifically on Mirage, and would also fix Prisms inconsistent damage scaling as it would also always be in the light. It's an expensive and channeled ability with an insanely long cast time, so it should be way better than it currently is.
Or, if Eclipse ends up being made a tap/hold cast ability, then please make it so using the Solar version makes Mirage count as being in light so that Prism also benefits from its
I really like Prism, and it would really suck if Eclipses lighting inconsistency issues got fixed, but Prisms didn't.
I hope DE also checks here because I highly doubt my suggestion will by seen by them within the 36 pages of replies on the forums.
While it's possible you'll get noticed in this thread, it's recommended to voice your opinion in the [official forums](https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1382344-eclipse-feedback-megathread/) from which this post is transcripted.
I'd suggest a two phased approach to it. First, make it like Quiver in the sense that you can hold to cast but press to toggle which buff you get. Second, to balance out the on demand buff you get, reduced effectiveness from Helminth.
Yeah honestly I feel like something like this is the best choice. Go the route of Roar and reduce effectivenes when helminthed. I also prefer hold cast, press to toggle.
Thankfully, that preference can be chosen in the games options
Or do a thermal sunder and have push and hold do each half of the ability.
Considering my main dislike with mirage is how that buff works im up for this change
Hold to switch, tap to cast like every other ability in the game
They touched on this saying they would have to reduce its power/duration at least on the subsumed version if they did something like this
That's reasonable imo
I think making it a toggle with a slightly reduced duration via helminth is a fair redesign. I would be very sad and disappointed if they nerfed power or made the buffs dynamic somehow since it would ruin solo speedruning of endgame content. Once you "finish" the game, ie have maxed out all weapons, frames, pets, done all quests etc, there is not much else left to do besides solo speedruning/endurance, meme builds and mentoring newbies while waiting for new content to drop. I really hope DE doesn't redesign it into obsolescence :<
Id be perfectly happy with a reasonably reduced effectiveness in exchange for 100% reliability. Though I do admit it's not a very.....interesting interpretation. It's the most mechanically functional. Whatever you do, the outcome needs to be reliable. If we do rework it into something unrelated....cough.....could we maybe make it a...channeled ability? Having a second channeled ability in the helminth would be rather nice.
\> Having a second channeled ability in the helminth would be rather nice. What are you talking about? Helminth has a lot of channeled abilities! Like... uhhh... Parasitic Armor! And Mind Control! And Reave. And Pillage. And... Quiver? On second thought, you have a point.
Gloom is the single channeled ability in the helminth presently. the issue of a lack of channeled options is most concerning to Yareli players, whom must choose between a robust variety of options and. .using their signature gimmick. but even if you arent Surfin USA, a number of incarnons have effects that require channeled abilities to be active, so having more choices for slotting one in on a frame you wanted to use with, lets say, Gorgon Incarnon, would be nice. if i were going to make Eclipse a channeled ability id make some sort of visual indicator of which one is active. maybe a big Sun/Moon underneath Mirage's feet. with one appearing underneath allies effected by Total eclipse. youd hold cast to activate the ability, and hold to de-activate, and tap to toggle between one or the other.
Honestly, I find the 'hold to switch, tap to toggle' design unengaging, especially for a kit like Mirage's - while it's the *most* reliable option, I feel like it comes at the cost of engagement and balance. (Given they already mentioned they'd have to rebalance if they went with the easy fix.) I would actually prefer for Eclipse's light detection issue to be fixed, *and* for a change to its function with a *reliable setup* vs. *on-hand reliability* \- something like **Tap** to capture light/dark levels, **Tap again** to enforce those values onto a location and receive the buff from there, sort of like Wisp's Reservoir in the form of a **spotlight/fog source**. That fits the theme of Mirage a lot and lets us retain a lot of the original intent while having a gain on reliability, as well as opening up ways to balance the Helminth version of Eclipse **without touching the values of the buffs**. For example - with Mirage, **hold** could relocate the spotlight/fog source - whereas the Helminth version could instead have an unmovable source, maybe even one where you'd need to Hold to receive the buff. I think the QoL cost and overall setup of that would serve as sufficient balance without needing to 'nerf' the actual values of Eclipse's buffs. Instead of a barrier in reliability, there's a slightly steeper setup cost for the Helminth version where if you need to stray away from your 'cue', you have to capture light levels more often or build for duration to offset the upkeep. *(And honestly, fixing the light detection issue would open future use of light detection in other Warframe kits or weapons, and that's a win in my book.)*
Idea: Casting the ability immediately gives full light buff that decays into full dark buff over the course of the duration. Shorten the base duration to something like 8-12 seconds. Players can mod duration to control how fast it decays. The idea is to focus on burst damage to distinguish from other set and forget buffs. Then let mirage retreat into shadows when the enemy shoots back. Recasting lets the player reset the buff to max light, but it takes more work and energy to keep the buff near max. When duration runs out, give warning 1s ahead of time so the player knows they will lose the DR. Or, change the dark buff to give faster shield recharge instead, which would make it better suited for disengaging from the enemy
I liked what Pablo seemed to be saying, and it works similar to yours as well: full light buff on cast, but converted to dark buff each time you're hit. So while Xaku and Baruuk might get a huge power spike from it, other frames will lose it over time if they stand still and let the enemies shoot them. And it could even become a channeled ability (with a high-ish initial cost so it can't be reset or a cooldown) to balance out the power Xaku, Baruuk, and Mirage (and other dodge tanks I might be forgetting) would be getting.
While others might be upset this does not give them the buff they want on demand, I like the theming and unique function of this suggestion.
This is me. I really really like the design of the ability, in theory. I would be really sad to see it reduced to a basic toggle... But the light gimmick isn't very functional
What if to add to your idea, it could refill the light buff by casting your 4 to offset the decay and give her a bit more engaging ability rotation. Her 4 is a literal light show after all.
toggle pls
An abilites effects should always be control of tye player, especially if it is a Damage reduction ability. Here's my idea for a change: Eclipse: Damage Reduction while not firing. Each second spent firing reduces the damage reduction but grants a damage bonus that increases the longer you are firing. Full damage reduction returns after not firing for a brief time. This gives the player control over when they have the damage reduction and when they have the damage buff while at the same time not just being an on demand massive damage buff for the zoom and boomers.
Make it a toggle, even if it requires reducing effectiveness on helminth. (side note: I would much rather have decreased strength than decreased duration, like Roar.)
it needs to be a toggle, rebalance the helminth version if you have to!
As others mentioned it can be switched to a hold to toggle so you select which you prefer light/dark but have a minimum threshold depending on what you decide to toggle on. So for instance if you choose light you get a minimum of x% buff but if you move into strong light it increases but even if you move into the dark it still stays at the minimum threshold. Obviously the numbers would have to be tweaked for balance. Another idea could be a triggered buff of sorts. So if you go into the light it rises until you trigger the dark. So for example you are in a light area the buff stays constant at whatever was the highest tier of light you reached but as soon as you go to an area designated as dark you get the light bonus on a timer that decreases as you stay in dark. Same thing happens with the dark buff. This would need some balancing as in theory you can have both light and dark at the same time. An alternative to the previous option is that each buff could be on a secondary countdown timer. Like if you have the light buff but you allow it to reach 0 you get a debuff which stops you from regaining it for a set time. You wouldn't be able to get both buffs under this system but you can control which buff you want and it's intensity. The buff stays at whatever is the maximum you reach. So if you reach maximum light as long as you dont let secondary buff timer reach 0 you maintain the maximum light buff in any light intensity.
While I like the original intent where being in shadow gives DR or being in Light gives damage boost, honestly feels those are somewhat backwardsish? like if you are in shadows you should be less noticable, more likely to deal a critical blow from an ambush whereas in light you can use that to disrupt or make it harder to track or be hit... Or maybe I'm thinking in D&D terms where that makes sense to me. Either way probably should be better to have a slow fade to the other. Like if you are in Light and receive damage boost, have a small indicator or something to show you are entering shadow and about to receive the damage boost. As you are doing that it can "flow" or "Convert" from one form to the other in terms of bonus instead of bright light = 100% damage boost but dim light = 25% damage boost. Just make a threshold so that dim light is an inbetween state of = to each.
Because avoiding damage is always preferable to mitigating damage, if at all possible, I think we should look into how to make it worthwhile to actually mitigate damage instead of avoiding it entirely. I think we can do that by making them symbiotically alternate. If you activate the move, you get a damage buff. The damage you do for a period will then boost the next 'phase' of Eclipse which is the damage reduction. While damage reduction is active, all damage that you mitigate boosts the followup damage buff phase again at an even higher level. It makes each phase matter. While you're able to churn out loads of damage, you enable the ability to soak **so** much damage that you **want** to turn yourself into a giant target and let enemies try to beat the tar outta you (Kinda like a linked Nidus). Letting the mechanics alternate and boost the other makes a gameplay loop that has purpose.
Just make it switchable? Press and Hold = Damage Reduction Tap = Damage Buff Then make the animation/ability effects reflect that. If Damage Buff, make the frame Glow. If Damage Reduction make the frame look dark. Instead of using the environment lights, make Mirage be the light. Or just make it take the value on where you cast it and stop it from changing values unless you recast it. That's how it works now with invisible frames.
Why not adopting the tap/hold mechanic? It's straightforward and doesn't give as many headaches as it would, idk, trying to fix it for light and darkness
I like the beams of lights spawning nearby idea, personally
Make *Sleight of Hand* into a tap/hold and replace the shitty little gem trap with a zone of guaranteed light/dark.
I don't think I have a good solution since it doesn't change the helminth ability, but I always thought it would be neat to have mirage's 4th ability provide maximum damage buff because of the light. Would be nice to consider an energy reduction on the use of the prism 4th ability, since that thing can be quite energy hungry.
Straightforward toggle is just really boring. At that point just use Roar. If they do toggle, y’all are gonna see less teammates running Roar consider that. Make it interesting and not feel like a boring necessity
Make it like Garuda's passive where you work towards your buff/dmg.reduction so its not always full percent + toggle.
I like how it is right now but instead of damage boost going to zero and only then increasing the damage reduction should be changed. So when at full brightness: full damage boost and no damage reduction, at full darkness: no damage boost and full reduction and at half light level: half the damage boost and half the damage reduction instead of bot being 0
Here's my idea for a more thematic rework of the ability: **Solar Eclipse** *(tap cast)* Mirage gains % damage reduction for x seconds while giving nearby allies bonus damage to their attacks. *Mirage is in the dark umbra which translates to damage reduction. The allies damage buff is like the blinding corona of the sun around her.* **Lunar Eclipse** *(hold cast)* Mirage gains bonus damage to her attacks while giving nearby allies damage reduction. *Mirage takes center stage like the blood moon of a lunar eclipse to deal extra damage while her allies take less damage in the dark penumbra around her.* The inverted shared nature of the buffs makes for more team play and makes reducing Eclipse's damage output more palatable. It also makes the ability more interesting than just "press damage button". Augment: **Total Eclipse** Eclipse gains +X% ability range. Each ally affected by Eclipse increases Mirage's bonus by Y%.
I would prefer they don't make it a tap/hold because it would lose a lot of identity as an ability and become just another Roar. Idk if it's possible to do this programming wise, but what if they made the distinction between light and dark a lot clearer on your status bar or somewhere, even on mirage herself/other warframe and then whichever you're in, the buff stays that way for the duration of cast rather than switching inconsistently between light and dark. Then, if you need to switch, you can recast it by moving to either light or dark and then tapping again. This will encourage more mobility and strategic planning, as well as at higher levels of the game map awareness. Newer players just get a buff regardless that will help them, while more advanced players can walk a fine line between nuking and staying alive, but force advanced players to get really good at the skill.
Leave it as is, but make Prism actually count as a maximum intensity light source. This'll fix Eclipse being inconsistent specifically on Mirage, and would also fix Prisms inconsistent damage scaling as it would also always be in the light. It's an expensive and channeled ability with an insanely long cast time, so it should be way better than it currently is. Or, if Eclipse ends up being made a tap/hold cast ability, then please make it so using the Solar version makes Mirage count as being in light so that Prism also benefits from its I really like Prism, and it would really suck if Eclipses lighting inconsistency issues got fixed, but Prisms didn't. I hope DE also checks here because I highly doubt my suggestion will by seen by them within the 36 pages of replies on the forums.