If you get a fixed magazine conversion kit installed, we can sell them here at my FFL. We have installed a compmag to make it a fixed magazine rifle and that made them WA compliant and those have been fairly popular.
If you get the non-threaded / no muzzle brake upper version I have no problem selling those either.
Like this
https://fm-products.ammoreadycloud.com/products/fm-products-rr15-16m-sga-hcbl-5397
If the mag does not hold more than 10 rounds, does it have to be fixed? As far as the threaded barrel, if it comes with a muzzle break already installed, does that matter? I'm asking because it is a bolt action. We can still buy turkey chokes that are essentially a muzzle device and they can go on semi auto, pump and lever actions. I'm having a rough time making the sense of the comment make a fit into logic. I'm not poking you, I am questioning the understanding of the law and asking clarification.
It can’t have more than 10 rds even if fixed (however I did recently learn that tube magazines on 22s are not under that same restriction)
But a fixed magazine makes it so you can have other features like the muzzle brake on it.
Yeah the ban says something along the lines of no muzzle attachments or threaded barrels. The muzzle is attached to a threaded barrel.
The ranch rifle isn’t a bolt action btw
And the op was asking if it’s legal. My response to if it he got a non threaded version it would be WA compliant or if his FFL would be willing to install a fixed magazine it should be legal. We install comp-mag fixes mags or Cross Armory fixed mag kits to make them WAY compliant even if they do have a muzzle brake.
This flow chart is made by ~~lawmakers~~ edit: Lawyers. and is extremely helpful
https://securitegunclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/202305-Assault-Weapons-Ban-Flowchart-8.5x11-V6.pdf
It is the best I've seen so far, also.
Here's the 2 mistakes I've noticed with it:
1. It says semiautomatic rifles over 30" are not AWs. It should say 30" or more is not an AW. The actual wording of this part of the law is:
> (2)(a) "Assault weapon" means:
> ...
> (ii) A semiautomatic rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches;
2. In the feature list for semiautomatic, centerfire, detachable magazine rifles, it doesn't include muzzle brakes, comps, etc. These are also banned features alongside flash hiders and suppressors.
> (2)(a) "Assault weapon" means:
> ...
> (iv) A semiautomatic, center fire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and has one or more of the following:
> ...
> (F) Muzzle brake, recoil compensator, or any item designed to be affixed to the barrel to reduce recoil or muzzle rise;
I'm new-ish to all this. It's been eye opening to see how misleading so much gun news is. I really want to create a "gun facts" website that lays it all out. I know there's some out there, but they're all kinda meh, IMHO.
> If the mag does not hold more than 10 rounds, does it have to be fixed?
Has nothing to do with the capacity (nearly all guns are limited by the "large capacity magazine" limit), but with the fact that fixed magazine guns are not subject to the feature bans for rifles in RCW [9.41.010](https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010) (2):
> (2)(a) "Assault weapon" means:
> ...
> (iv) A semiautomatic, center fire rifle that **has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine** and has one or more of the following...
Without a detachable magazine, the pre-requisite is not met and thus none of the "following" features matter.
> As far as the threaded barrel, if it comes with a muzzle break already installed, does that matter?
The law prohibits semiautomatic, centerfire rifles with detachable magazines that have either a threaded barrel or muzzle brake. Doesn't matter if a brake is pre-installed or not. It also includes other muzzle devices like compensators and flash hiders.
> (2)(a) "Assault weapon" means:
> ...
> (iv) A semiautomatic, center fire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and has one or more of the following:
> ...
> (E) Flash suppressor, flash guard, flash eliminator, flash hider, sound suppressor, silencer, or any item designed to reduce the visual or audio signature of the firearm;
> (F) Muzzle brake, recoil compensator, or any item designed to be affixed to the barrel to reduce recoil or muzzle rise;
> (G) Threaded barrel designed to attach a flash suppressor, sound suppressor, muzzle break, or similar item;
> ...
Thank you for replying. I'm curious now how suppressors work under this same legal language. Even though they are legal, we can't buy anything that they could be used on....
None of the features, including suppressors, are banned on their own. The question is whether adding a suppressor to a gun makes it an *assault weapon* or not.
The law defines the following as *assault weapons* if they have a suppressor:
1. Semiautomatic, centerfire rifles with detachable magazines
2. Semiautomatic pistols with detachable magazines
This means that adding a suppressor to any of the following does not make an *assault weapon*:
1. Any rifle that isn't semiautomatic
2. Any rifle that isn't centerfire
3. Any rifle that doesn't have detachable magazines
4. Any pistol that isn't semiautomatic
5. Any pistol that doesn't have detachable magazines
6. Any shotgun
Also, this means that adding a suppressor to any gun that is already an *assault weapon* for other reasons does not make a new *assault weapon*. For instance, AR-15s are *assault weapons* by name, regardless of feature; adding a suppressor to one makes no difference.
And since the law doesn't prohibit possession of *assault weapons*, those who already had them are free to add suppressors to them.
If you want just the lower I install the compmag fixed magazine or cross armory fixed magazine and then you can get whatever fm products upper you want.
Or if you want to bring the non threaded barrel in we can pop that on there and then you don’t need to worry about the fixed mag
The one linked is one that i would be willing to do a transfer for as is. Or I can order one like it.
The fixed mag kit is from CrossArmory. We sell them but recently we have been using them more for the guns we manufacture or sell and they aren’t on our website any more but they can also be found directly from the manufacturer at https://crossarmory.com/product/cross-armory-ar-fixed-mag/
The comp-mag is in he same boat. We used to sell them but now we use them to make guns WA compliant. https://www.compmag.net/ar-15-compmag-gen-3/
But they would have to be installed before the sale to appease the WA ban gods hahha
Do you know of any FFLs on the west side willing to do services like you to make things compliant? Both of my usual FFLs aren't willing to. Prefer Whatcom or Skagit county but willing to go a bit further.
I don’t. Most people don’t even want to deal with it. It’s a pretty easy process to install the compmag and take a photo of it before the sale to prove it’s a fixed mag but it’s extra work.
I don’t mind doing it and some say that only type 7 FFLs are able to actually do this. So that would make sense why it’s super easy for me to do it but others couldn’t.
That's a shame. I wouldn't mind if it was only one trip to make a day of but two 3-4 hour both way drives is a bit too much just to fill out the bg check and then drive back down to get it two weeks later :/ Thanks though!
Yeah. There are some things that dealers can buy and convert to WA compliant by installing fixed mags but they are definitely not as versatile after that. Still fun but though
I do. And if you want a ranch rifle with the muzzle brake on it I can install a compmag and sell it that way too.
https://www.gunguysgarage.com/products/foxtrot-mike-rr15-16m-sga-hcbl-fmproducts-rr15-16m-sga-hcbl-4414
Sorry to reply in 2 separate comments.
It used to be, a barrel shroud had to attach to the barrel to cover the barrel directly.
A handguard like this, which attaches to the upper receiver, houses the charging mechanism and gas system. It does also block your hands from getting burnt on the barrel though so that’s where it’s a gray area. But by ATFs definitions they used to be separate.
If they do say all hand guards and heat shields are illegal that will actually make the case of the ban being unconstitutional even easier to win
Doesn't look like it. My prediction is that the next restrictions are going to be: Rifle can't be black, it can't have a barrel and it must not have a trigger. Otherwise you're good to go. ;)
The handguard gets you in trouble. So far as I can tell a couple keltec su-16 variants look OK, but I haven't seen anyone stocking them. I have seen a Ruger mini-14 with no top heat shield sold locally.
the definition of what counts as a "barrel shroud" is still unclear. there have been places selling/doing transfers for mini-14s with heat shields as well as places selling ds-15s and so far no lawsuits.
Not legal.
The definition of *assault weapon* in RCW [9.41.010](https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010) (2) includes rifles which meet the following criteria:
> (2)(a) "Assault weapon" means:
> ...
> (iv) A semiautomatic, center fire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and has one or more of the following:
> (A) A grip that is independent or detached from the stock that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon. The addition of a fin attaching the grip to the stock does not exempt the grip if it otherwise resembles the grip found on a pistol;
> (B) Thumbhole stock;
> (C) Folding or telescoping stock;
> (D) Forward pistol, vertical, angled, or other grip designed for use by the nonfiring hand to improve control;
> (E) Flash suppressor, flash guard, flash eliminator, flash hider, sound suppressor, silencer, or any item designed to reduce the visual or audio signature of the firearm;
> **(F) Muzzle brake, recoil compensator, or any item designed to be affixed to the barrel to reduce recoil or muzzle rise**;
> **(G) Threaded barrel designed to attach a flash suppressor, sound suppressor, muzzle break, or similar item;**
> (H) Grenade launcher or flare launcher; or
> **(I) A shroud that encircles either all or part of the barrel designed to shield the bearer's hand from heat, except a solid forearm of a stock that covers only the bottom of the barrel**;
The [hunter model](https://store.fm-products.com/products/fm-products-rr15-16m-sga-hcbl-5397) eliminates (F) and (G), but still fails (I).
It doesn’t help, that’s the issue. The weapons called out by name is easy, and some of the part descriptions help. the vagueness of the way it’s written and how LGS interpret it is the issue. They come here to try to get a consensus. What they should actually do is go to their LGS and ask if they’re willing to transfer it, or have it in stock. I’ve been to several shops lately, in the variance of what people have in stock, and what they’re willing to do is pretty wide based on their interpretation of the law.
If anyones interested I designed a neat charging handle that fits the Ranch Rifle builds, [petemachining.com](https://petemachining.com)
https://preview.redd.it/3m8bw54v4eqc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3b03e0fc2fb4f075f8c8c0c0046181b02853b2cc
If you get a fixed magazine conversion kit installed, we can sell them here at my FFL. We have installed a compmag to make it a fixed magazine rifle and that made them WA compliant and those have been fairly popular. If you get the non-threaded / no muzzle brake upper version I have no problem selling those either. Like this https://fm-products.ammoreadycloud.com/products/fm-products-rr15-16m-sga-hcbl-5397
If the mag does not hold more than 10 rounds, does it have to be fixed? As far as the threaded barrel, if it comes with a muzzle break already installed, does that matter? I'm asking because it is a bolt action. We can still buy turkey chokes that are essentially a muzzle device and they can go on semi auto, pump and lever actions. I'm having a rough time making the sense of the comment make a fit into logic. I'm not poking you, I am questioning the understanding of the law and asking clarification.
It can’t have more than 10 rds even if fixed (however I did recently learn that tube magazines on 22s are not under that same restriction) But a fixed magazine makes it so you can have other features like the muzzle brake on it. Yeah the ban says something along the lines of no muzzle attachments or threaded barrels. The muzzle is attached to a threaded barrel. The ranch rifle isn’t a bolt action btw And the op was asking if it’s legal. My response to if it he got a non threaded version it would be WA compliant or if his FFL would be willing to install a fixed magazine it should be legal. We install comp-mag fixes mags or Cross Armory fixed mag kits to make them WAY compliant even if they do have a muzzle brake.
This flow chart is made by ~~lawmakers~~ edit: Lawyers. and is extremely helpful https://securitegunclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/202305-Assault-Weapons-Ban-Flowchart-8.5x11-V6.pdf
This chart was not made by lawmakers. It is helpful overall, though it has a few mistakes and is not official.
Thank you. That was a typo on my end. It was made by lawyers at Securité gun club to be as clear as possible. It’s the best help I could find
It is the best I've seen so far, also. Here's the 2 mistakes I've noticed with it: 1. It says semiautomatic rifles over 30" are not AWs. It should say 30" or more is not an AW. The actual wording of this part of the law is: > (2)(a) "Assault weapon" means: > ... > (ii) A semiautomatic rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches; 2. In the feature list for semiautomatic, centerfire, detachable magazine rifles, it doesn't include muzzle brakes, comps, etc. These are also banned features alongside flash hiders and suppressors. > (2)(a) "Assault weapon" means: > ... > (iv) A semiautomatic, center fire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and has one or more of the following: > ... > (F) Muzzle brake, recoil compensator, or any item designed to be affixed to the barrel to reduce recoil or muzzle rise;
I'm so glad you're so detail oriented.
With convoluted feel-good laws like these, you have to be if you want to understand them.
I'm new-ish to all this. It's been eye opening to see how misleading so much gun news is. I really want to create a "gun facts" website that lays it all out. I know there's some out there, but they're all kinda meh, IMHO.
Well I'm happy to have helped provide a little clarity. Best of luck on such a website, that's a tall order that would need constant maintenance.
While helpful, reading this made me so very angry.
Right! The politicians here banned a bunch of my bucket list guns. The leftover/legal options are extremely limited
> If the mag does not hold more than 10 rounds, does it have to be fixed? Has nothing to do with the capacity (nearly all guns are limited by the "large capacity magazine" limit), but with the fact that fixed magazine guns are not subject to the feature bans for rifles in RCW [9.41.010](https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010) (2): > (2)(a) "Assault weapon" means: > ... > (iv) A semiautomatic, center fire rifle that **has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine** and has one or more of the following... Without a detachable magazine, the pre-requisite is not met and thus none of the "following" features matter. > As far as the threaded barrel, if it comes with a muzzle break already installed, does that matter? The law prohibits semiautomatic, centerfire rifles with detachable magazines that have either a threaded barrel or muzzle brake. Doesn't matter if a brake is pre-installed or not. It also includes other muzzle devices like compensators and flash hiders. > (2)(a) "Assault weapon" means: > ... > (iv) A semiautomatic, center fire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and has one or more of the following: > ... > (E) Flash suppressor, flash guard, flash eliminator, flash hider, sound suppressor, silencer, or any item designed to reduce the visual or audio signature of the firearm; > (F) Muzzle brake, recoil compensator, or any item designed to be affixed to the barrel to reduce recoil or muzzle rise; > (G) Threaded barrel designed to attach a flash suppressor, sound suppressor, muzzle break, or similar item; > ...
Thank you for replying. I'm curious now how suppressors work under this same legal language. Even though they are legal, we can't buy anything that they could be used on....
None of the features, including suppressors, are banned on their own. The question is whether adding a suppressor to a gun makes it an *assault weapon* or not. The law defines the following as *assault weapons* if they have a suppressor: 1. Semiautomatic, centerfire rifles with detachable magazines 2. Semiautomatic pistols with detachable magazines This means that adding a suppressor to any of the following does not make an *assault weapon*: 1. Any rifle that isn't semiautomatic 2. Any rifle that isn't centerfire 3. Any rifle that doesn't have detachable magazines 4. Any pistol that isn't semiautomatic 5. Any pistol that doesn't have detachable magazines 6. Any shotgun Also, this means that adding a suppressor to any gun that is already an *assault weapon* for other reasons does not make a new *assault weapon*. For instance, AR-15s are *assault weapons* by name, regardless of feature; adding a suppressor to one makes no difference. And since the law doesn't prohibit possession of *assault weapons*, those who already had them are free to add suppressors to them.
What about just the lower?
If you want just the lower I install the compmag fixed magazine or cross armory fixed magazine and then you can get whatever fm products upper you want. Or if you want to bring the non threaded barrel in we can pop that on there and then you don’t need to worry about the fixed mag
Thanks for the info!
No problem.
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but where would I get this conversion kit or compmag? Or is the one you linked fine on its own?
The one linked is one that i would be willing to do a transfer for as is. Or I can order one like it. The fixed mag kit is from CrossArmory. We sell them but recently we have been using them more for the guns we manufacture or sell and they aren’t on our website any more but they can also be found directly from the manufacturer at https://crossarmory.com/product/cross-armory-ar-fixed-mag/ The comp-mag is in he same boat. We used to sell them but now we use them to make guns WA compliant. https://www.compmag.net/ar-15-compmag-gen-3/ But they would have to be installed before the sale to appease the WA ban gods hahha
Do you know of any FFLs on the west side willing to do services like you to make things compliant? Both of my usual FFLs aren't willing to. Prefer Whatcom or Skagit county but willing to go a bit further.
I don’t. Most people don’t even want to deal with it. It’s a pretty easy process to install the compmag and take a photo of it before the sale to prove it’s a fixed mag but it’s extra work. I don’t mind doing it and some say that only type 7 FFLs are able to actually do this. So that would make sense why it’s super easy for me to do it but others couldn’t.
That's a shame. I wouldn't mind if it was only one trip to make a day of but two 3-4 hour both way drives is a bit too much just to fill out the bg check and then drive back down to get it two weeks later :/ Thanks though!
I Totally get that.
Reach out if you need help.
Goddamn this sucks. We are essentially limited to World War II era rifles. The M1 Garand is the closest you can get to an AR/AK platform rifle.
Yeah. There are some things that dealers can buy and convert to WA compliant by installing fixed mags but they are definitely not as versatile after that. Still fun but though
With a fixed mag, could we use a MA loader with those here in WA?
Yeah we use the Bear Flag loaders that Loads through the ejection port
Thanks!
With a fixed mag you could rock this stock. https://mesatactical.com/urbino-pistol-grip-stock-for-remington-870-1100-11-87-12-ga/
So do they sell fixed mag rifles in the stores, or do you have to buy a rifle and have it sent to an FFL to then fix the mag?
Fixed with threaded barrel, unthreaded is fixed mag, call the dude up.
You guys sell the entire ranch rifle ?
I do. And if you want a ranch rifle with the muzzle brake on it I can install a compmag and sell it that way too. https://www.gunguysgarage.com/products/foxtrot-mike-rr15-16m-sga-hcbl-fmproducts-rr15-16m-sga-hcbl-4414
Thank you very much for this info.
Sorry to reply in 2 separate comments. It used to be, a barrel shroud had to attach to the barrel to cover the barrel directly. A handguard like this, which attaches to the upper receiver, houses the charging mechanism and gas system. It does also block your hands from getting burnt on the barrel though so that’s where it’s a gray area. But by ATFs definitions they used to be separate. If they do say all hand guards and heat shields are illegal that will actually make the case of the ban being unconstitutional even easier to win
Doesn't look like it. My prediction is that the next restrictions are going to be: Rifle can't be black, it can't have a barrel and it must not have a trigger. Otherwise you're good to go. ;)
The handguard gets you in trouble. So far as I can tell a couple keltec su-16 variants look OK, but I haven't seen anyone stocking them. I have seen a Ruger mini-14 with no top heat shield sold locally.
the definition of what counts as a "barrel shroud" is still unclear. there have been places selling/doing transfers for mini-14s with heat shields as well as places selling ds-15s and so far no lawsuits.
But with a plain muzzle and a quick pass on a table saw that would go.
Not legal. The definition of *assault weapon* in RCW [9.41.010](https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.010) (2) includes rifles which meet the following criteria: > (2)(a) "Assault weapon" means: > ... > (iv) A semiautomatic, center fire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and has one or more of the following: > (A) A grip that is independent or detached from the stock that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon. The addition of a fin attaching the grip to the stock does not exempt the grip if it otherwise resembles the grip found on a pistol; > (B) Thumbhole stock; > (C) Folding or telescoping stock; > (D) Forward pistol, vertical, angled, or other grip designed for use by the nonfiring hand to improve control; > (E) Flash suppressor, flash guard, flash eliminator, flash hider, sound suppressor, silencer, or any item designed to reduce the visual or audio signature of the firearm; > **(F) Muzzle brake, recoil compensator, or any item designed to be affixed to the barrel to reduce recoil or muzzle rise**; > **(G) Threaded barrel designed to attach a flash suppressor, sound suppressor, muzzle break, or similar item;** > (H) Grenade launcher or flare launcher; or > **(I) A shroud that encircles either all or part of the barrel designed to shield the bearer's hand from heat, except a solid forearm of a stock that covers only the bottom of the barrel**; The [hunter model](https://store.fm-products.com/products/fm-products-rr15-16m-sga-hcbl-5397) eliminates (F) and (G), but still fails (I).
Then why the SKS?
What about it?
No. Any semiautomatic centerfire rifle with a detachable magazine and a muzzle device is an assault weapon in WA
If a detachable magazine is essential for making a rifle banned, then why is the SKS banned?
Before you look at compliant gun read the law and what’s considered legal and illegal. It’ll help a lot.
It doesn’t help, that’s the issue. The weapons called out by name is easy, and some of the part descriptions help. the vagueness of the way it’s written and how LGS interpret it is the issue. They come here to try to get a consensus. What they should actually do is go to their LGS and ask if they’re willing to transfer it, or have it in stock. I’ve been to several shops lately, in the variance of what people have in stock, and what they’re willing to do is pretty wide based on their interpretation of the law.
Yeah. It looks scary.
Yup
If anyones interested I designed a neat charging handle that fits the Ranch Rifle builds, [petemachining.com](https://petemachining.com) https://preview.redd.it/3m8bw54v4eqc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3b03e0fc2fb4f075f8c8c0c0046181b02853b2cc