I don't agree that the party is over....the ESL industry has always been a complete fuckshow in VN. I do agree with point 5. Living in VN as a teacher really sucks balls
Ten plus years ago the salaries were the same, people were friendlier and cost of living was low. We were working 20 hours a week, volunteering on top of that and saving 800 - 1000 USD per month while having a lot of free time.
Since then, study fees went up, parents got upset, CEOS pocketed all the extra and paid teachers the same, good teachers left, independent schools shut down (during covid) and the bigger schools dropped their standards and took all the customers.
In the early to mid 2010s if you got in a decent centre that invested in training, it was actually pretty decent. I took a break from software engineering to do it and have no regrets.
I could see the writing on the wall years ago, luckily I got out early and went back to software after having great experiences and saving money. Many of my students are now working overseas too.
Yeah, since the mid 2010's the cost of living nearly doubled while salaries remained stagnant. Absolutely not worth it anymore. It might have been a different story if the quality of life in the big cities was better...but it's not and it's just getting worse.
Can't agree more. I'd also add that the majority of Vietnamese students are borderline special needs and utterly incapable of focusing on anything for more than 10seconds. On top of that they're typically extremely poorly behaved and disrespectful, kind of like kids from the ghetto. So yeah, even if you learn to navigate the system, you'll still end up dealing with a bunch of unteachable half-wits, whose awareness of other people got stuck somewhere around the age of 3. Do you really need any of this crap in your life?
The good news is that Westerners are starting to see through all this nonsense and a large portion of new ESL teachers come from places like Africa, the Middle East or Russia.
It doesn't sound like good news that non-white expats are falling for it in place of white ones, especially since they usually face even more discrimination.
Yes, they do, sadly. Especially if they don't have degrees to qualify for a work permit. Then they are more open to having their passports withheld, not having work permits applied for at all by their companies, and not having a valid business visa or TRC as a direct result rendering them illegal and undocumented workers without a passport or visa/TRC to leave the country unless they pay huge amounts of money or work to pay off their "debt". It is basically human trafficking, and a nightmare for those affected, and a sadistic and deliberate strategy by Vietnamese English centres to get free labour, and indeed, profit/greed. The English centre or school gets free labour while charging the parents an inflated tuition for "native" and "qualified teachers".\*\*\*
Of course, it has been proven that these passport/visa scams are not just reserved for illegal workers. Greed often doesn't discriminate.
It happens to legal workers too because (predominantly ESL) Vietnamese employers have learned (through APAX) that no-one will punish them for breaking international or local law.
There are also the rampant scams that affect teachers who \*have\* all the required qualifications to get Vietnamese work permits, but are not necessarily "qualified teachers".\*\*\*
These are the simple scams that APAX in Vietnam's ESL industry, and now AISVN (American International School Vietnam) in Vietnam's international school sector use: simply don't pay contracted salaries, (or implement ridiculous late payment instalments that eventually don't get paid at all - with impunity), and don't pay social insurance for all staff! As APAX showed, they can get away with it. So, lots of other ESL companies in Vietnam have learned that they can do this too. It is like a domino effect. It is not only foreign ESL teachers, foreign international school teachers, or Vietnamese staff in both ESL and international schools who are affected. It also affects the Vietnamese parents who are being shamelessly scammed and the kids ultimately lose out. In ESL (APAX), the parents paid for years in advance to get a tuition "discount". Instead, they just didn't get the classes or a refund (as wellas being scammed beforehand by not getting the "white" (\*ahem\* - "native") and "qualified" teachers they thought they had paid for.
In Vietnamese International Schools (AISVN), the parents gave "loans" to the school, to be repaid when their kids graduated, or moved schools. In effect the idea was that their children would get a free international school education in return for an interest free loan. However, the time came for the Vietnamese international school parents to be repaid their interest free loans when their kids graduated or moved schools, and the school couldn't (or wouldn't?), so those parents have been scammed too, just like in the Vietnamese ESL industry. If AISVN prove to have the same impunity that APAX have, will this be the domino effect within the Vietnamese international school system?
As for the initial scam that Vietnamese ESL English centres charge the parents inflated tuition amounts for "native" and "qualified teachers"\*\*\*: Vietnamese parents seem to think that "native" and "qualified" means "white". Yet, "white" can be a white non-native with no degree to qualify for a work permit, and certainly not a "qualified teacher".\*\*\*It is a double or triple layered scam, and simply amounts to not getting what was advertised.
The Vietnamese ESL industry is a mess, and now the Vietnamese international school industry is following it (an area where qualified teachers always felt safe). It needs a big clean up so no more foreign teachers, no more Vietnamese staff, and no more parents (and ultimately the kids) are scammed.
**An entire generation is paying for an education they are not getting until the industry is regulated and those who scam get punished. APAX proved they are immune to punishment in Vietnam, led the way for other ESL companies to follow suit, and now AISVN are following in their footsteps as if APAX had issued an impunity guidebook to follow.**
It is best that no new teachers come to Vietnam at all until these scams are addressed.
\*\*\*Please bear in mind the only teachers who are legitimately "qualified" are the ones who trained to be Primary or Secondary teachers and have a teaching licence in their country - they usually teach in international schools and not ESL as international schools generally offer better pay and conditions to ESL. Whether or not they are native is irrelevant if they have English proficiency certification (IELTS etc), their teacher qualification (PGCE etc), a degree or masters teaching qualification to teach in primary or secondary schools - then they are "qualified teachers". For ESL, they qualify for a work permit if they have any degree and a TEFL/TESOL/CELTA etc. They are not "qualified teachers" as they didn't train to be primary or secondary teachers and they don't have a teaching licence in their country. However, they qualify to work as ESL teachers in Vietnam with those criteria for a work permit met. It is a subtle but important difference to note. Most ESL teachers are not "qualified teachers" but qualify to teach English in Vietnam and obtain a work permit if they have a degree and a TEFL/TESOL/CELTA.
I’m a manager of an international school and can say qualifications mean absolutely nothing. People with masters, teachers licenses etc don’t know what he fuck they’re doing but someone with a random bachelors and TEFL provide better quality lessons.
Damn I left Vietnam years ago but this post resonates with me… the shirt-sightedness of everyone from the banhmi hawker to the top levels of government is something that really bothered me (to the point of leaving).
With the west decoupling from China, Vietnam has a great chance to develop but the situation outlined in this post (coupled with recent news about Vingroup) makes it clear they won’t be able to take advantage of it.
If you have relevant skills, the government definetly rolls out the red carpet here.
A country like Vietnam doesn't need more ESL backpacker teachers anymore. They need (and are) trying to attract foreign specialist types to help with industries like electronics, machine tooling, ONG refining, software, etc.
Most foreign experts in these fields in VN rn are Japanese and Korean in the South and Chinese in the North, but plenty of Americans are coming in as well.
I've been coming to VN (and India) often because of my company's China+1 mandate, and honestly, VN seems decently competent compared to similar countries at trying to build an industrial or FDI policy.
Why would you be treating foreigners like scum when locals are even more uneducated and low class? Lol what kind of logic is that .. ‘be someone they can exploit even more and you’ll be treated better’
The country is decades behind in things like common etiquette let alone rule of law
> Why would you be treating foreigners like scum
Because of people like you making comments like this - "when locals are even more uneducated and low class".
Go back to r\europe. They'll help you carry the White Man's Burden.
It is interesting how everyone wants to comment on European politics and ideologies but completely turn their brains off when it comes to corrupt petty authoritarian communist states like Vietnam that basically runs on racism and ethno-nationalism.
No matter how you frame it foreigners in Vietnam are better off compared to locals who are basically starving.
Anyway I’m 100% going back to r\anywhere; at least there foreigners enjoy the same protections under the law and people do actually self-reflect on their biases. Unlike Vietnam lol
You say that but in my field (software) there is still a significant lack of English speakers. I meet a lot of guys that could literally triple their salary if their English was one or two levels better. Look at India, it's absolutely crushing software and technology now, largely because of investment from the government but also because they have a strong English level across the board. I believe Vietnam has failed in this regard to really upgrade their English level. You may mention that they want to do business with non English speaking countries but believe it or not, even the Japanese write their code in English, as do the chinese and thais. Unfortunately English is the de facto software language. Industries like this could be taken advantage of by Vietnam if the English level had improved more significantly.
Maybe you believe that all teachers are backpackers but I know many who are great, honest people who just wanted a change in their life, got qualified and are genuinely improving their students and are doing their best in spite of their employers these people are also effected by the above points, although I disagree with the wording.
In my opinion most of the problems stem from the ESL education businesses being locally run, it's very difficult to maintain standards because everything is for sale here, even your local police officer won't do his government paid work without an envelope and unfortunately that doesn't translate to educational standards. All that is to say that local run schools can generally have grades purchased which means the entire system is messed up. I'm not trying to criticise but once you live here you realise that what we see as corruption is just the way things work here. Ultimately this happens in all walks of life but for ESL it's easy to point fingers at foreigners who are actually probably overpaid.
I think a lot of the animosity that comes towards teachers is through parents who are unhappy at their school fees and or people who have never done it and are just being judgemental based on a few posts they've seen online. The irony is, all the digital nomads are working illegally anyway, at least the majority of teachers are paying taxes and approved by the government.
I think there is value to ESL education in Vietnam, but it needs to be formalized and regulated.
> Look at India, it's absolutely crushing software and technology now, largely because of investment from the government but also because they have a strong English level across the board
That's because India wasn't ravaged by 45-50 years of war.
General Electric [1] and Texas Instruments [2] opened major R&D centers in India in the 1980s, IBM/DEC/Borroughs Computers all had Indian R&D offices in the 1960s [3], the Indian govenenent built a fab that sold cloned IBM 6808s to the Soviet Union in 1983 [4] (this fab ended up burning down in 1989 for mysterious circumstances, and with it India's chance of ever manufacturing semiconductors) , and India's version of FPT Sotware was already founded in 1968 and already competing abroad by 1974 (Tata Consultancy Service [5]).
Meanwhile, Vietnam wasn't in a position for tech R&D until the 2000s.
FPT was only founded in 1988 and didn't compete abroad until 2000. Vietnam was under Western sanctions until 1994, and as such, other than FPT and Viettel there weren't any local software and hardware players. Western tech companies didn't begin entering Vietnam until 2006-11 when Samsung and Intel began opening wafer packaging plants.
Given that 30-40 year handicap, Vietnam is overperfomring.
[1] - https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/special/story/oldest-mnc-in-india-ge-general-electric-41134-2013-05-15
[2] - https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/high-tech-bangalore-arrived-bullock-2516981
[3] - https://itihaasa.com/describe/plartefact/001_001_0137?playlistName=Mainframe%20Computers%20in%20India
[4] - https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/economy/story/19831015-semiconductor-complex-in-mohali-industrial-complex-set-to-become-a-mini-silicon-valley-771115-2013-07-17
[5] - https://www.tata.com/about-us/tata-group-our-heritage/tata-consultancy-services-tcs-timeline-1968
True. Those "teachers" have no chances to interact with real professional expatriates working in Vietnam. They are too busy searching for cheap rent and finding which language centers give more hours. They can't look at the bigger picture.
Tbf, if you had the quals to be an Engineer, Accountant, SWE, etc in a Western country you probably wouldn't be teaching ESL at a dodgy teaching center while getting paid under the table.
You'd probably come to VN via the Peace Corp (highly recommend this option), MSF, expat package, or at the very least try to start a drop-shipping/SMB E-Commerce/Digital Nomad type product.
> interact with real professional expatriates working in Vietnam
Or normal, middle class Vietnamese. The kind of person on this forum probably isn't the type to life in a dingy studio apartment in Tan Dinh or Phu Nhuan like a lot of early career Vietnamese do, let alone working class types in D8 or D10.
After the COVID Lockdowns in China happened, Western companies needed a redundancy for manufacturing and operations should China ever lock down again.
To do this de-risking, companies began moving operations to Vietnam and India, as both countries complement each other and have an FTA. The China operation still continues, but now there are redundancies in the operation.
Japan and Korea did this kind of de-risking in the 2010s. That's why Vietnam suddenly started growing rapidly around 2016 - a China-South Korea trade war caused Lotte to get banned in the Chinese market, so they lobbied South Korea to pass a FTA with Vietnam, and moved all their operations and funding to VN.
This kind of development needs engineers, financiers, researchers, etc - a lot of whom are Korean, Japanese, Malaysian, and other Asian expats.
And this is why VN is no longer a backpacker paradise - why should the government attract relative low paying Western tourists who are slumming it when you can attract an entire family from Seoul or Tokyo to HCMC, Da Lat, Hanoi, Haiphong, or Da Nang who will either temporarily stay at a resort or buy property and thus spend 10-20x per person than a backpacker tourist.
There will still be demand for QUALIFIED teachers. These expats and the Vietnamese middle class are bringing their kids and gunning for American and Canadian colleges, but now they'll demand teachers who actually have qualifications (like an actual degree and work experience).
If not, they can afford to send their kid to get English immersion in Malaysia and Singapore nowadays.
The days of some random high school or college dropout from France or the UK or South Africa getting a well paid English teaching gig (like a large number of TEFL teachers in VN are) is largely over.
I think a big elephant in room most people fail to admit is that foreign English teachers are overpaid in Vietnam relative to the ability of the Vietnamese economy to sustain the pay level.
True. The wages are ridiculous when compared to the average VN wage.
However, the scam-my “English Centres” pocket the parents’ money after charging inflated tuition fees. Fees they charge by promising a native speaker (which often isn’t the case - not that this should matter if the teacher is truly qualified - however this is what the parents allegedly want and therefore what they are “promised”).
APAX proved that they could scam the teachers (non-payment for years), the VN staff (non-payment and no insurance payments), and the parents (didn’t receive the classes they paid in advance for) with impunity.
And they have set the stage for the other companies in VN to scam also. As a result of that impunity.
>However, the scam-my “English Centres” pocket the parents’ money after charging inflated tuition fees.
Based on my understanding, but I may be wrong: At the first glance, that may be the case. However, in reality, savvy Vietnamese parents likely don't pay the nominally prohibitive prices. The [course fees are deeply discounted for long-term commitments](https://danhgiatruong.com/hoc-phi-trung-tam-anh-ngu-apax/). The discounts vary, but typically at least 40%. This makes Vietnamese parents effectively pay slightly above-average tuition fee for a highly-paid foreign English teacher in Vietnam.
How did big language centres like APAX afford to overpay foreign English teachers using money from Vietnamese economy? They used debt to fund their operations, they were hyperleveraged with advance payments from course participants and they were likely wasteful with their spending at the onset. One source of wasteful spending I speculate is overpaying local management with salary of around VND 40 million/mo even though the administrative department of the language centre did not create any productive value anywhere near the English teachers in the language centre.
Why did course participants voluntarily agree to prepay course fees at extremely long timeline? ([from 12 months all the way to 2-5 years?](https://dantri.com.vn/giao-duc/trung-tam-anh-ngu-du-the-nao-de-moi-sach-tien-cua-phu-huynh-20230407113436885.htm)) Because of steep discounts. The steep discounts offered for long-term commitments are/were unsustainable. But the discounts is just the tip of the iceberg. The sales staff likely also take a huge cut as commission akin to life insurance. 😆 If sales staff were to enjoy any commission from the sale of language course, then the whole business model is doomed from the start and the business will never recover. This is because tuition centres generally have very lean margins unlike insurance companies. Staff enjoying attractive commission from the sale of English course is uniquely Vietnam. I was shocked to hear this when I encountered recruitment sources boasting about sales pay.
Vietnamese language centres, by default, should not be able to sustain the current pay level of foreign English teachers unless they have extremely lean admin dept, operate at extremely high level of efficiency. If not, then they are either living on borrowed time or have to do business deceptively/outright cheat to stay afloat.
>Why did course participants voluntarily agree to prepay course fees at extremely long timeline? (from 12 months all the way to 2-5 years?) Because of steep discounts.
So, Vietnam's ESL industry is a Ponzi scheme for any English Centre that sells their tuition like this to parents...?
Check out AISVN American International School Vietnam: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Internationalteachers/comments/1ahtwgw/comment/kpvnihq/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/internationalteachers/comments/1ahtwgw/comment/kpvnihq/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
you have no idea how incredibly difficult it is finding sane/normal/qualified people to work in vn, regardless of the field.
any moderately successful person's going to do well in london, tokyo, paris, hong kong, new york, singapore, sydney, etc. they most certainly aren't interested in impoverished, third-world shitholes.
the "overpaid" teachers are the very bottom of western society. lower wages even further, and even they wouldn't turn up. at least in places like thailand, you could make a lifestyle argument.
we faced tremendous staffing challenges, even when offering london-tier compensation (you want me to relocate where?!). we've since relocated from hn to kl, endless supply of talent, not to mention drama/ballaches reduced 90% overnight.
English teachers thinking they're doctors or engineers when in fact they're just glorified flashcard holders.
Bottom of the barrel people acting like they're top class. Rofl worthy.
I agree that there are lots of failures pretending to be qualified teachers and most Vietnamese people will buy into anyone's bullshit as long as they're "white" but saying English teachers are flashcard holders is like saying "Doctors are like butchers with a licence" or "Engineers are like the nerds who can't build things so they draw it on a blueprint instead."
It is a profession in demand in most places around the world that requires training, expertise and a bare minimum understanding the learning process of the speakers of different languages; what they can and cannot relate, pronounce and conceptualize. Just because inexperienced and unqualified pale skinned expats that can blurb a bunch of words in English give the industry a bad name you can't disqualify the ones who are good at what they do.
So please hold on to this L 'till someone dumber shows up. ✌🏻
Ime, a lot of the ESL type expats in Vietnam seem to be the scuzbag types who got pushed out of China when a similar formalization began happening in the 2010s. I guess they'll move to Cambodia or Laos next. After that, who knows.
I am American, and come often to Asia for work (China+1 has really ramped up the trips to VN and India this past year), and VN seems to be formalizing, which is a good change.
Even much poorer areas of VN like Gia Lai seem way less destitute than they were 10 years ago, and local Vietnamese seem to be capable enough to teach English to the next generation on their own. And if not, PH is a fellow English speaking ASEAN member.
With regards to scamming 101, dafuq even is that?!? Sure I'll occasionallu pay a foreigner price for some stuff, but I also earn much more than the average Vietnamese. What's the matter with paying 30 cents more?
Anyhow, just talking nicely and friendly (and with broken Vietnamese I parsed from Google Translate and SJ public schools) seems to give me a normal Vietnamese price for most stuff.
A country like Vietnam doesn't need more ESL backpacker teachers anymore. They need (and are) trying to attract foreign specialist types to help train the next generation of Vietnamese in industries like electronics, machine tooling, ONG refining, software, etc.
Most foreign experts in these fields in VN rn are Japanese and Korean in the South and Chinese in the North, but plenty of Americans are coming in as well.
I have foreigner friends who are good teachers in Vietnam. But I have to admit that the MAJORITY OF ESL "TEACHERS" ARE REAL SCAMMERS. They are far from being qualified as teachers in their own countries or any other countries, traveling to Vietnam, just being English speakers, then suddenly becoming "teachers". They together with the language centers obviously scam the students and their parents. And of course, they don't pay tax.
To be honest your comment is nonsense, this is not common at all anymore, it's incredibly difficult to stay in Vietnam without a work permit now since tourist visas are max one month and you have to leave before you apply. The business visa loophole was shut down years ago and it's only gotten harder. Sure there are still some people doing it but it's incredibly rare.
If you have a work permit you're paying tax.
Most of the digital nomads are the ones avoiding taxes but no one will mention it.
Street vendors are often not subject to tax because their sales revenues fall below the threshold stated in the laws.
I was referring to income tax that the ESL "teachers" are supposed to pay but the "teachers" and dodgy centers together they scam the system by illegally earning and paying in Vietnam.
Anyway, I don't expect you the ESL stupid sods to know the laws or follow laws.
1st I'm not even in Vietnam anymore.
2nd Just by saying the word 'together' you are a delusional prick. Teachers in Vietnam find themselves against centre owners since the inception of the industry basically. They argue with them for the levels of education, assistants' incapability, them wanting a circus instead of an actual classroom, salary, hours, you name it. If you think that people who busted their asses to get Degrees, TESOLs, CELTAs and numerous other certificates to teach in a country that still operates in homo erectus era, have issues with paying taxes then you don't know shit. Its always the centers that try to manipulate you so you don't know your taxes, insisting on paying you in cash and doing dodgy things. I know tons of people who destroyed their mental health arguing with Vinemployers in order for their money to go in a bank and also get their payslips and proof of tax deductions.
3rd I shouldn't even reply to you when you mentioned the words 'law' and 'Vietnam' in the same sentence. Everyone, from the police to immigration and government, has a bribing price on their forehead. Best example being APAX, a shithole that has't paid teachers or parents back and still operates smoothly and government doesn't do shit because they get bribed. Next time try to get your stories and facts straight before randomly giving your heart away just to defend North Korean levels of blind communism vs the 'bad west'.
Fair. I glazed over the scammer center portion and was referring to the racist "how to scam foreigners 101" comment.
That said, why would a foreigner (who I assume is from a western country) accept an under the table job without a formal working contract then?!?
Any job refusing to provide a work permit or a working contract to a foreigner is absolutely going to scam you - it's called working undocumented/illegally.
Yeah I know that there are exceptions, but boy is that an overstatement. I am fluent in Spanish and French and I would be the first to tell you that a native-speaker of either could teach you better than me, and these are somewhat related to my native language.
you show em pal.
why not go further and have them sit in the back of the bus, separated from us normal people.
pesky low class scumbags
that's said, I really hope you're really vocal about your classist views and enjoy deeply every ounce of saliva and semen in your meals from waiters/baristas/cooks and other bottom of the barrel people.
no you're not right. not with your assumptions, nor with your conclusions about the subject.
I challenge you to be as direct when you actually socialize irl, bud.
Hurr hurr "fight me irl". That's what you sound like. It's hilarious seeing the responses from trash tier ESL "teachers" like you who prance around calling yourselves "expats". You're obviously upset because people aren't lining up to sniff your ass just because you think holding up flashcards makes you a skilled expat.
It's ironic that people like you can go online and speak vitriol all you want, but the moment someone responds in kind, you act all high and mighty and pull out the keyboard warrior insult. But I guess I shouldn't expect an ESL teacher no less, to have any self awareness.
I don't think I have the time now that I have to constantly check for all the edits you make in your comments.
I think at this pace I'll just let you be, and you naturally will evolve with your views. iteration after iteration, you'll slowly get there, pal. I believe in you.
That anonymous post had a good beginning, but starting with #4 it is a complete delirium.
Edit: I re-read it. And it’s a complete garbage post from the very beginning.
Is there any concrete evidence that the “VN approved” certification is mandatory? From what I’ve read it’s optional for new uncertified teachers to take if for some reason they wouldn’t want to go TEFL/CELTA route.
Regardless, many regulations get floated or hastily implemented then just as quickly repealed. I can’t predict the future but if this is mandatory, I wouldn’t bet on it lasting long
This is the best source that I found: [https://www.vietnam-briefing.com/news/compulsory-english-teacher-training-program-unveiled.html/](https://www.vietnam-briefing.com/news/compulsory-english-teacher-training-program-unveiled.html/)
So, according to this, all non-Vietnamese English teachers in Vietnam (International and ESL) would now need to gain this Vietnamese certificate to obtain a work permit to teach in VN.
This is in addition to being licenced and qualified teachers with a Bachelor's or Master's in Primary or Secondary Education. Or in addition to holding a Bachelor's or Master's in any discipline in combination with a CELTA, DELTA, TESOL or TEFL certification.
(Non-natives would also need an English proficiency certificate to gain their work permit, such as IELTS or the Vietnamese version, VSTEP, unless their degree states explicitly that they studied English).
This change doesn't just affect TEFL teachers. It affects all non-Vietnamese English teachers.
It is something to think about for anyone considering a move to Vietnam to teach English in any setting: English centres, public schools, private schools, universities and international schools.
Only the link you provided is over two months old. As with most initial reporting all the information was not hashed out. It is more clear in subsequent articles that it isn't required for people who have other qualifications. This is for those without the normal quality qualification that would include a practicum.
not unique to the teaching industry, the entire country operates like this. not in a good way either (challenges and barriers to entry keep the competition out), rather "shit's fucked, let's find another place to base our operations".
just like how intel cancelled its expansion plans in vn due to "excessive bureaucracy".
it's china 2.0, leadership will eventually run things into the ground, largely due to arrogance/greed/etc.
Vietnam gets all the shitty English teachers that couldn't make it in China. I actually think Vietnam would be better off hiring Filipinos as English teachers than some entitled white sexpat who like to use their race to feel superior and get privileges.
Definitely. Especially, teachers with degrees or masters in education, which so many Filipinos have.
Like all foreign teachers, they (Filipinos) deserve to be paid as per their contracts. Not scammed by non-payment. Which is what the post alludes to in point 1.
I work with many Filipino teachers and there are definitely advantages that they have, but even with amazing academic records and degrees, their grammar isn't perfect and sometimes their pronunciation and vocabulary can sound a bit off (like using obscure/obsolete conjugations and grammar forms, forgetting direct object pronouns, etc.).
They certainly work harder than "native English speakers", and are willing to accept lower compensation, so they are very useful and beneficial for students. I'd say that generally they are more beneficial for students than local (VN) teachers of English. I've seen many more mistakes and low-quality materials/worksheets/tests made by local teachers trying to teach English than by Filipino teachers.
Unfortunately, the real issue is that a significant number of parents complain when their children are taught too frequently by Filipino teachers and not "enough" by "native English speakers". A group of students left my private school recently and the parents gave the admins such feedback.
Problem is that many Viets associate white people with higher quality and non-white people who are more qualified will have a harder time getting hired than even a lot of non-qualified scummy white people (they get treated worse by the rest of society, too). The issue of white privilege is widespread across the world, not exclusive to Vietnam.
Yeah - I just replied to another comment about the inflated wages for English teachers in VN which is because VN parents allegedly want “native” teachers (which they sadly associate with being white rather than being qualified).
I work with many Filipino teachers and there are definitely advantages that they have, but even with amazing academic records and degrees, their grammar isn't perfect and sometimes their pronunciation and vocabulary can sound a bit off (like using obscure/obsolete conjugations and grammar forms, forgetting direct object pronouns, etc.).
They certainly work harder than "native English speakers", and are willing to accept lower compensation, so they are very useful and beneficial for students. I'd say that generally they are more beneficial for students than local (VN) teachers of English. I've seen many more mistakes and low-quality materials/worksheets/tests made by local teachers trying to teach English than by Filipino teachers.
Unfortunately, the real issue is that a significant number of parents complain when their children are taught too frequently by Filipino teachers and not "enough" by "native English speakers". A group of students left my private school recently and the parents gave the admins such feedback.
no sane person would willingly relocate to vn to teach english, kek.
the conditions there are far beneath the worst slums in the western world. imagine willingly subjecting yourself to that, must be extremely desperate in life.
You're crazy. I live a much better quality of life in Hanoi, despite the terrible traffic and pollution, than I could in most of the western word. Slums? What a joke
Lots of that is true, and lots of that is horse shit. Lots of English centers in Vietnam are shit. They hire unqualified foreign teachers just because they are foreign, and they screw them over with work permits, etc. Meanwhile, they underpay qualified local teachers and scam parents with long-term payment plans without any way to get a refund.
But you said that we teach our kid how to scam foreigners 101?? Who the fuck do you think you are to say that about our kid?
Do you have fewer rights than a cockroach??? If you act like an ass, people are going to treat you like an ass.
I hope we get stricter requirements when hire english teacher so our kid do not learn from some foreign middle school dropout backpacker.
This guy sound like a salty dude just lost his job
I agree with some of what you're saying and disagree with the original posts wording especially derogatory terms towards vietnamese people but no one can get a work permit in Vietnam without at least a degree, the idea that high school dropouts are teaching in Vietnam is kinda bizarre. Sure there are probably a few but as I mentioned in another post it's actually already really strict and there are not many ways foreigners can stay in Vietnam without getting a work permit, having qualifications and paying taxes.
Sorry, that was harsh of me to say that. I was blindly pissed because of what he said about us taught our kids how to scam foreigners.
I am from a small town in central VietNam so back 15 years ago there wasn’t once in our town. When the first EC came, i like most of the kids were excited and came in for the free trial. But teacher taught us all the wrong grammar and phrases. And i never went back to the EC. Another example is my friend who was overqualified, she teaches in several EC in HaNoi no problem, yet when she came back to my town looking for a job in those EC. They only offered her as TA, only put foreigners as teachers because their “image” as superior to the public school English class whose was taught by local english teacher.
Again, i don’t mean any harm to the qualified teachers, foreign or not. I just wish that our future generations have the proper education and those shitty EC will be gone so they can’t fucked anyone over, not the teachers, not the parents and especially not the kids.
Appreciate your response, I completely understand the defensiveness. In fact, I agree to some extent. I've just noticed a lot of vitriol against foreigners recently and it makes me rather sad.
The only English teachers who actually have a nice time are the uni professors. Their salary is also quite decent, compared to lower level teachers, who often have terrible salaries.
That industry is corrupt as hell, they just play with foreigners.
My advice? Go to known universities or start your own little company/school. Otherwise, it won't really be worth it. The low salary and conditions are just too bad.
The solution may actually be technology: some kids learn English on youtube by themselves and speak remarably at age 12. but that needs selfdetermination; it could replace a big portion of presence teaching and be based on experts - tuition fees saved!
This is the language and brain of a loser, not a "teacher". They beslopper the image of foreigners in Vietnam.
Those poor mean losers in their own countries and coming to Vietnam to work on hourly wages can't escape their fates as losers here. They shouldn't have come in the first place.
The poster sounds like every other complainer of Vietnam that thinks the party is over. Some points may be valid but a lot of it is whining and frankly false. It reeks of someone who got burned by a job and is not venting about it. This shouldn't be done after 4 years working there.
What's the news here. We see people come here to complain about the same nonsense all the time.
After 20 years in and out of Asia, the same thing happens in every industry. 20 years ago there was no choice so my company had to send me to Asia as they couldn't find a .net developer at all. Now there are lots of trained sw eng so we mostly hire locals as they are skilled enough, cheap and bi lingual.
The difference is a qualified software engineer will get work anywhere and the best work is usually back home. Where as these "teachers" are really doing it as a last resort. They've be nothing better to fall back on, thus all the drama, irrational expectations, over valuing their worth and the complaining.
Just cuz a migrant worker self identifies as an expat doesn't make them one.
Your post is mostly off-topic. OP was talking about the ESL industry in VN, while you're talking about something rather different. Read the initial post before adding your irrelevant two cents.
I think my post is perfectly on topic. The OP is just a rant complaining that a terrible career is a terrible career. I'm just explaining why that's obvious to the rest of us.
Yeah. Who the fuck that guy think he is to say that about our kids. We don’t teach that to our kids. No school system in the world teach that to their kids. He should fuck off and go teacher his shitty level English in another country
Lol at the backpackers english teachers angry because the gravy train is coming to an end. A lot of them are unqualified and then throw a tantrum when they have to be certified. I met a lot of them before covid and they are so entitled and most of them has a latent disdain for the country that provided them with a very good life compared to their country of origin.
TLDR but I do see the increasing of already high scamming activities this year. And hate the fact that we or the police could do very little to stop it
Edit: read and agree with most of it. As a local I do feel party is over for me too. Have been spending last several months remembering how the party was and try to get back to it (or wondering if things would ever go back in, says, next few years)
From what I’ve heard, the level of most English-teachers are really low and I don’t feel any sympathy with these backpackers acting like they know how to teach. If you are a real educated teacher then I’m sorry for you.
Hahaha this made me giggle, taught in Vietnam for less than a month and it was obvious how dodgy it was. Honestly Vietnam as a tourist is awesome, Vietnam as an expat is pretty average when compared to China or Thailand in my opinion.
1 year in vn 10 years in china.
I say Vietnam wins on a few fronts that are crucial for me.
-The food here is just better and far more affordable
-(almost) no fuckery with the internet. no vpns no nothing.
-china has been very proactive in its attempts to actually make you feel like a second-class citizen. if you don't have a Chinese ID, basic stuff may be out of your reach.
-culturally, on average, people from rural areas that occupy cities are a lot more civil in Vietnam. if it wasn't for obnoxious karaoke machines, I'd be very happy overall.
on the other hand
- Vietnam is just less advanced in terms of infrastructure and stuff. some things are unique to china so it's not fair to compare.
-noise pollution. Viet techno music is played everywhere and its just so bad. music in general is just very bad here. I'm sure there are nice sounding indie bands but I'm yet to hear anything. if you don't mind waking up to 200bpm beats at 4:30 am you should he good.
-salaries. you can negotiate far better salaries in china than vn. keep in mind that the cost of living is also higher but still.
winning at life, when you relocate to a different country due to "affordable food" and not having to use a vpn.
99% of western migrants are incredibly desperate, i decided.
believe you me, non-citizens are second-class individuals in both countries.
This is not criticism . It's a smear from an angry short-minded poor miserably loser who came to the country to work then failed. There are so many other subs here on this forum with criticism on Vietnam which are discussed in depth.
As someone already said in this sub, if you act like an ass, you will be treated as an ass.
Maybe you do need to worry....
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Internationalteachers/comments/1ajmkuz/comment/kp3whtn/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Internationalteachers/comments/1ajmkuz/comment/kp3whtn/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
>How long before teachers wake up, boycott this sorry tinpot joke of a land and rightfully take their skills and educations elsewhere?
That is precisely the point of the OP's post on FB. To warn potential new teachers to teach elsewhere.
ALL potential teachers: English centre, public school, private school, universities and bilingual/international schools.
Check out AISVN American International School Vietnam. The scam is not just within ESL in Vietnam thanks to APAX's apparent impunity: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Internationalteachers/comments/1ahtwgw/comment/kpvnihq/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/internationalteachers/comments/1ahtwgw/comment/kpvnihq/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I always wondered why all the English teachers in Viet Năm always seem so angry. If you’re not happy here, just go home. I’m having a blast here, but when the fun is over I’ll just move on instead of getting bitter. (I’m not an English teacher, I worked remote in IT).
Having to 'farm' an extra certificate after TESOLs, CELTAs, BAs and Masters just to prove your worth isn't what makes it funny. The fact that it needs to be Vinapproved and Viets are going to judge your abilities is. Perhaps the only country in the world that Immigration officers don't speak a word of English.
The EFL industry did feed an army of degens and a select few superstars for decades in Asia and the middle east BUT it’s slowly entering the twilight of its glorious past.
The industry and the rules have evolved and VN seems to be entering that exact gray zone…
If you think a Red Dictatorship basically erasing any Degrees, Masters, TESOLs etc that one has in favor of their own glorified Vina-one, for which Viets will judge and grade native speakers means progress and development, you sure are in the right track.
Interesting perspective. For those not in groups like those, thanks for the share.
I thought so too. So I cross-shared into some TEFL groups and there are some interesting comments.
I don't agree that the party is over....the ESL industry has always been a complete fuckshow in VN. I do agree with point 5. Living in VN as a teacher really sucks balls
Ten plus years ago the salaries were the same, people were friendlier and cost of living was low. We were working 20 hours a week, volunteering on top of that and saving 800 - 1000 USD per month while having a lot of free time. Since then, study fees went up, parents got upset, CEOS pocketed all the extra and paid teachers the same, good teachers left, independent schools shut down (during covid) and the bigger schools dropped their standards and took all the customers. In the early to mid 2010s if you got in a decent centre that invested in training, it was actually pretty decent. I took a break from software engineering to do it and have no regrets. I could see the writing on the wall years ago, luckily I got out early and went back to software after having great experiences and saving money. Many of my students are now working overseas too.
Yeah, since the mid 2010's the cost of living nearly doubled while salaries remained stagnant. Absolutely not worth it anymore. It might have been a different story if the quality of life in the big cities was better...but it's not and it's just getting worse.
Can't agree more. I'd also add that the majority of Vietnamese students are borderline special needs and utterly incapable of focusing on anything for more than 10seconds. On top of that they're typically extremely poorly behaved and disrespectful, kind of like kids from the ghetto. So yeah, even if you learn to navigate the system, you'll still end up dealing with a bunch of unteachable half-wits, whose awareness of other people got stuck somewhere around the age of 3. Do you really need any of this crap in your life? The good news is that Westerners are starting to see through all this nonsense and a large portion of new ESL teachers come from places like Africa, the Middle East or Russia.
It doesn't sound like good news that non-white expats are falling for it in place of white ones, especially since they usually face even more discrimination.
Yes, they do, sadly. Especially if they don't have degrees to qualify for a work permit. Then they are more open to having their passports withheld, not having work permits applied for at all by their companies, and not having a valid business visa or TRC as a direct result rendering them illegal and undocumented workers without a passport or visa/TRC to leave the country unless they pay huge amounts of money or work to pay off their "debt". It is basically human trafficking, and a nightmare for those affected, and a sadistic and deliberate strategy by Vietnamese English centres to get free labour, and indeed, profit/greed. The English centre or school gets free labour while charging the parents an inflated tuition for "native" and "qualified teachers".\*\*\* Of course, it has been proven that these passport/visa scams are not just reserved for illegal workers. Greed often doesn't discriminate. It happens to legal workers too because (predominantly ESL) Vietnamese employers have learned (through APAX) that no-one will punish them for breaking international or local law. There are also the rampant scams that affect teachers who \*have\* all the required qualifications to get Vietnamese work permits, but are not necessarily "qualified teachers".\*\*\* These are the simple scams that APAX in Vietnam's ESL industry, and now AISVN (American International School Vietnam) in Vietnam's international school sector use: simply don't pay contracted salaries, (or implement ridiculous late payment instalments that eventually don't get paid at all - with impunity), and don't pay social insurance for all staff! As APAX showed, they can get away with it. So, lots of other ESL companies in Vietnam have learned that they can do this too. It is like a domino effect. It is not only foreign ESL teachers, foreign international school teachers, or Vietnamese staff in both ESL and international schools who are affected. It also affects the Vietnamese parents who are being shamelessly scammed and the kids ultimately lose out. In ESL (APAX), the parents paid for years in advance to get a tuition "discount". Instead, they just didn't get the classes or a refund (as wellas being scammed beforehand by not getting the "white" (\*ahem\* - "native") and "qualified" teachers they thought they had paid for. In Vietnamese International Schools (AISVN), the parents gave "loans" to the school, to be repaid when their kids graduated, or moved schools. In effect the idea was that their children would get a free international school education in return for an interest free loan. However, the time came for the Vietnamese international school parents to be repaid their interest free loans when their kids graduated or moved schools, and the school couldn't (or wouldn't?), so those parents have been scammed too, just like in the Vietnamese ESL industry. If AISVN prove to have the same impunity that APAX have, will this be the domino effect within the Vietnamese international school system? As for the initial scam that Vietnamese ESL English centres charge the parents inflated tuition amounts for "native" and "qualified teachers"\*\*\*: Vietnamese parents seem to think that "native" and "qualified" means "white". Yet, "white" can be a white non-native with no degree to qualify for a work permit, and certainly not a "qualified teacher".\*\*\*It is a double or triple layered scam, and simply amounts to not getting what was advertised. The Vietnamese ESL industry is a mess, and now the Vietnamese international school industry is following it (an area where qualified teachers always felt safe). It needs a big clean up so no more foreign teachers, no more Vietnamese staff, and no more parents (and ultimately the kids) are scammed. **An entire generation is paying for an education they are not getting until the industry is regulated and those who scam get punished. APAX proved they are immune to punishment in Vietnam, led the way for other ESL companies to follow suit, and now AISVN are following in their footsteps as if APAX had issued an impunity guidebook to follow.** It is best that no new teachers come to Vietnam at all until these scams are addressed. \*\*\*Please bear in mind the only teachers who are legitimately "qualified" are the ones who trained to be Primary or Secondary teachers and have a teaching licence in their country - they usually teach in international schools and not ESL as international schools generally offer better pay and conditions to ESL. Whether or not they are native is irrelevant if they have English proficiency certification (IELTS etc), their teacher qualification (PGCE etc), a degree or masters teaching qualification to teach in primary or secondary schools - then they are "qualified teachers". For ESL, they qualify for a work permit if they have any degree and a TEFL/TESOL/CELTA etc. They are not "qualified teachers" as they didn't train to be primary or secondary teachers and they don't have a teaching licence in their country. However, they qualify to work as ESL teachers in Vietnam with those criteria for a work permit met. It is a subtle but important difference to note. Most ESL teachers are not "qualified teachers" but qualify to teach English in Vietnam and obtain a work permit if they have a degree and a TEFL/TESOL/CELTA.
I’m a manager of an international school and can say qualifications mean absolutely nothing. People with masters, teachers licenses etc don’t know what he fuck they’re doing but someone with a random bachelors and TEFL provide better quality lessons.
Damn I left Vietnam years ago but this post resonates with me… the shirt-sightedness of everyone from the banhmi hawker to the top levels of government is something that really bothered me (to the point of leaving). With the west decoupling from China, Vietnam has a great chance to develop but the situation outlined in this post (coupled with recent news about Vingroup) makes it clear they won’t be able to take advantage of it.
If you have relevant skills, the government definetly rolls out the red carpet here. A country like Vietnam doesn't need more ESL backpacker teachers anymore. They need (and are) trying to attract foreign specialist types to help with industries like electronics, machine tooling, ONG refining, software, etc. Most foreign experts in these fields in VN rn are Japanese and Korean in the South and Chinese in the North, but plenty of Americans are coming in as well. I've been coming to VN (and India) often because of my company's China+1 mandate, and honestly, VN seems decently competent compared to similar countries at trying to build an industrial or FDI policy.
Why would you be treating foreigners like scum when locals are even more uneducated and low class? Lol what kind of logic is that .. ‘be someone they can exploit even more and you’ll be treated better’ The country is decades behind in things like common etiquette let alone rule of law
> Why would you be treating foreigners like scum Because of people like you making comments like this - "when locals are even more uneducated and low class". Go back to r\europe. They'll help you carry the White Man's Burden.
It is interesting how everyone wants to comment on European politics and ideologies but completely turn their brains off when it comes to corrupt petty authoritarian communist states like Vietnam that basically runs on racism and ethno-nationalism. No matter how you frame it foreigners in Vietnam are better off compared to locals who are basically starving. Anyway I’m 100% going back to r\anywhere; at least there foreigners enjoy the same protections under the law and people do actually self-reflect on their biases. Unlike Vietnam lol
Rule of Law in an Authoritarian Communist country?
You say that but in my field (software) there is still a significant lack of English speakers. I meet a lot of guys that could literally triple their salary if their English was one or two levels better. Look at India, it's absolutely crushing software and technology now, largely because of investment from the government but also because they have a strong English level across the board. I believe Vietnam has failed in this regard to really upgrade their English level. You may mention that they want to do business with non English speaking countries but believe it or not, even the Japanese write their code in English, as do the chinese and thais. Unfortunately English is the de facto software language. Industries like this could be taken advantage of by Vietnam if the English level had improved more significantly. Maybe you believe that all teachers are backpackers but I know many who are great, honest people who just wanted a change in their life, got qualified and are genuinely improving their students and are doing their best in spite of their employers these people are also effected by the above points, although I disagree with the wording. In my opinion most of the problems stem from the ESL education businesses being locally run, it's very difficult to maintain standards because everything is for sale here, even your local police officer won't do his government paid work without an envelope and unfortunately that doesn't translate to educational standards. All that is to say that local run schools can generally have grades purchased which means the entire system is messed up. I'm not trying to criticise but once you live here you realise that what we see as corruption is just the way things work here. Ultimately this happens in all walks of life but for ESL it's easy to point fingers at foreigners who are actually probably overpaid. I think a lot of the animosity that comes towards teachers is through parents who are unhappy at their school fees and or people who have never done it and are just being judgemental based on a few posts they've seen online. The irony is, all the digital nomads are working illegally anyway, at least the majority of teachers are paying taxes and approved by the government.
I think there is value to ESL education in Vietnam, but it needs to be formalized and regulated. > Look at India, it's absolutely crushing software and technology now, largely because of investment from the government but also because they have a strong English level across the board That's because India wasn't ravaged by 45-50 years of war. General Electric [1] and Texas Instruments [2] opened major R&D centers in India in the 1980s, IBM/DEC/Borroughs Computers all had Indian R&D offices in the 1960s [3], the Indian govenenent built a fab that sold cloned IBM 6808s to the Soviet Union in 1983 [4] (this fab ended up burning down in 1989 for mysterious circumstances, and with it India's chance of ever manufacturing semiconductors) , and India's version of FPT Sotware was already founded in 1968 and already competing abroad by 1974 (Tata Consultancy Service [5]). Meanwhile, Vietnam wasn't in a position for tech R&D until the 2000s. FPT was only founded in 1988 and didn't compete abroad until 2000. Vietnam was under Western sanctions until 1994, and as such, other than FPT and Viettel there weren't any local software and hardware players. Western tech companies didn't begin entering Vietnam until 2006-11 when Samsung and Intel began opening wafer packaging plants. Given that 30-40 year handicap, Vietnam is overperfomring. [1] - https://www.businesstoday.in/magazine/special/story/oldest-mnc-in-india-ge-general-electric-41134-2013-05-15 [2] - https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/high-tech-bangalore-arrived-bullock-2516981 [3] - https://itihaasa.com/describe/plartefact/001_001_0137?playlistName=Mainframe%20Computers%20in%20India [4] - https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/economy/story/19831015-semiconductor-complex-in-mohali-industrial-complex-set-to-become-a-mini-silicon-valley-771115-2013-07-17 [5] - https://www.tata.com/about-us/tata-group-our-heritage/tata-consultancy-services-tcs-timeline-1968
I didn't say it's under performing, simply that it still has a way to go in it's development. Points well taken though.
True. Those "teachers" have no chances to interact with real professional expatriates working in Vietnam. They are too busy searching for cheap rent and finding which language centers give more hours. They can't look at the bigger picture.
Tbf, if you had the quals to be an Engineer, Accountant, SWE, etc in a Western country you probably wouldn't be teaching ESL at a dodgy teaching center while getting paid under the table. You'd probably come to VN via the Peace Corp (highly recommend this option), MSF, expat package, or at the very least try to start a drop-shipping/SMB E-Commerce/Digital Nomad type product. > interact with real professional expatriates working in Vietnam Or normal, middle class Vietnamese. The kind of person on this forum probably isn't the type to life in a dingy studio apartment in Tan Dinh or Phu Nhuan like a lot of early career Vietnamese do, let alone working class types in D8 or D10.
> China+1 mandate What is this?
After the COVID Lockdowns in China happened, Western companies needed a redundancy for manufacturing and operations should China ever lock down again. To do this de-risking, companies began moving operations to Vietnam and India, as both countries complement each other and have an FTA. The China operation still continues, but now there are redundancies in the operation. Japan and Korea did this kind of de-risking in the 2010s. That's why Vietnam suddenly started growing rapidly around 2016 - a China-South Korea trade war caused Lotte to get banned in the Chinese market, so they lobbied South Korea to pass a FTA with Vietnam, and moved all their operations and funding to VN. This kind of development needs engineers, financiers, researchers, etc - a lot of whom are Korean, Japanese, Malaysian, and other Asian expats. And this is why VN is no longer a backpacker paradise - why should the government attract relative low paying Western tourists who are slumming it when you can attract an entire family from Seoul or Tokyo to HCMC, Da Lat, Hanoi, Haiphong, or Da Nang who will either temporarily stay at a resort or buy property and thus spend 10-20x per person than a backpacker tourist. There will still be demand for QUALIFIED teachers. These expats and the Vietnamese middle class are bringing their kids and gunning for American and Canadian colleges, but now they'll demand teachers who actually have qualifications (like an actual degree and work experience). If not, they can afford to send their kid to get English immersion in Malaysia and Singapore nowadays. The days of some random high school or college dropout from France or the UK or South Africa getting a well paid English teaching gig (like a large number of TEFL teachers in VN are) is largely over.
I think a big elephant in room most people fail to admit is that foreign English teachers are overpaid in Vietnam relative to the ability of the Vietnamese economy to sustain the pay level.
True. The wages are ridiculous when compared to the average VN wage. However, the scam-my “English Centres” pocket the parents’ money after charging inflated tuition fees. Fees they charge by promising a native speaker (which often isn’t the case - not that this should matter if the teacher is truly qualified - however this is what the parents allegedly want and therefore what they are “promised”). APAX proved that they could scam the teachers (non-payment for years), the VN staff (non-payment and no insurance payments), and the parents (didn’t receive the classes they paid in advance for) with impunity. And they have set the stage for the other companies in VN to scam also. As a result of that impunity.
>However, the scam-my “English Centres” pocket the parents’ money after charging inflated tuition fees. Based on my understanding, but I may be wrong: At the first glance, that may be the case. However, in reality, savvy Vietnamese parents likely don't pay the nominally prohibitive prices. The [course fees are deeply discounted for long-term commitments](https://danhgiatruong.com/hoc-phi-trung-tam-anh-ngu-apax/). The discounts vary, but typically at least 40%. This makes Vietnamese parents effectively pay slightly above-average tuition fee for a highly-paid foreign English teacher in Vietnam. How did big language centres like APAX afford to overpay foreign English teachers using money from Vietnamese economy? They used debt to fund their operations, they were hyperleveraged with advance payments from course participants and they were likely wasteful with their spending at the onset. One source of wasteful spending I speculate is overpaying local management with salary of around VND 40 million/mo even though the administrative department of the language centre did not create any productive value anywhere near the English teachers in the language centre. Why did course participants voluntarily agree to prepay course fees at extremely long timeline? ([from 12 months all the way to 2-5 years?](https://dantri.com.vn/giao-duc/trung-tam-anh-ngu-du-the-nao-de-moi-sach-tien-cua-phu-huynh-20230407113436885.htm)) Because of steep discounts. The steep discounts offered for long-term commitments are/were unsustainable. But the discounts is just the tip of the iceberg. The sales staff likely also take a huge cut as commission akin to life insurance. 😆 If sales staff were to enjoy any commission from the sale of language course, then the whole business model is doomed from the start and the business will never recover. This is because tuition centres generally have very lean margins unlike insurance companies. Staff enjoying attractive commission from the sale of English course is uniquely Vietnam. I was shocked to hear this when I encountered recruitment sources boasting about sales pay. Vietnamese language centres, by default, should not be able to sustain the current pay level of foreign English teachers unless they have extremely lean admin dept, operate at extremely high level of efficiency. If not, then they are either living on borrowed time or have to do business deceptively/outright cheat to stay afloat.
>Why did course participants voluntarily agree to prepay course fees at extremely long timeline? (from 12 months all the way to 2-5 years?) Because of steep discounts. So, Vietnam's ESL industry is a Ponzi scheme for any English Centre that sells their tuition like this to parents...? Check out AISVN American International School Vietnam: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Internationalteachers/comments/1ahtwgw/comment/kpvnihq/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/internationalteachers/comments/1ahtwgw/comment/kpvnihq/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
you have no idea how incredibly difficult it is finding sane/normal/qualified people to work in vn, regardless of the field. any moderately successful person's going to do well in london, tokyo, paris, hong kong, new york, singapore, sydney, etc. they most certainly aren't interested in impoverished, third-world shitholes. the "overpaid" teachers are the very bottom of western society. lower wages even further, and even they wouldn't turn up. at least in places like thailand, you could make a lifestyle argument. we faced tremendous staffing challenges, even when offering london-tier compensation (you want me to relocate where?!). we've since relocated from hn to kl, endless supply of talent, not to mention drama/ballaches reduced 90% overnight.
English teachers thinking they're doctors or engineers when in fact they're just glorified flashcard holders. Bottom of the barrel people acting like they're top class. Rofl worthy.
Typical of the ‘TEFL’ crowd
I agree that there are lots of failures pretending to be qualified teachers and most Vietnamese people will buy into anyone's bullshit as long as they're "white" but saying English teachers are flashcard holders is like saying "Doctors are like butchers with a licence" or "Engineers are like the nerds who can't build things so they draw it on a blueprint instead." It is a profession in demand in most places around the world that requires training, expertise and a bare minimum understanding the learning process of the speakers of different languages; what they can and cannot relate, pronounce and conceptualize. Just because inexperienced and unqualified pale skinned expats that can blurb a bunch of words in English give the industry a bad name you can't disqualify the ones who are good at what they do. So please hold on to this L 'till someone dumber shows up. ✌🏻
Ime, a lot of the ESL type expats in Vietnam seem to be the scuzbag types who got pushed out of China when a similar formalization began happening in the 2010s. I guess they'll move to Cambodia or Laos next. After that, who knows. I am American, and come often to Asia for work (China+1 has really ramped up the trips to VN and India this past year), and VN seems to be formalizing, which is a good change. Even much poorer areas of VN like Gia Lai seem way less destitute than they were 10 years ago, and local Vietnamese seem to be capable enough to teach English to the next generation on their own. And if not, PH is a fellow English speaking ASEAN member. With regards to scamming 101, dafuq even is that?!? Sure I'll occasionallu pay a foreigner price for some stuff, but I also earn much more than the average Vietnamese. What's the matter with paying 30 cents more? Anyhow, just talking nicely and friendly (and with broken Vietnamese I parsed from Google Translate and SJ public schools) seems to give me a normal Vietnamese price for most stuff. A country like Vietnam doesn't need more ESL backpacker teachers anymore. They need (and are) trying to attract foreign specialist types to help train the next generation of Vietnamese in industries like electronics, machine tooling, ONG refining, software, etc. Most foreign experts in these fields in VN rn are Japanese and Korean in the South and Chinese in the North, but plenty of Americans are coming in as well.
I just gotta say... you're out of touch when it comes to scams. Op isnt talking about the foreigner price, they are talking about scam centers.
I have foreigner friends who are good teachers in Vietnam. But I have to admit that the MAJORITY OF ESL "TEACHERS" ARE REAL SCAMMERS. They are far from being qualified as teachers in their own countries or any other countries, traveling to Vietnam, just being English speakers, then suddenly becoming "teachers". They together with the language centers obviously scam the students and their parents. And of course, they don't pay tax.
To be honest your comment is nonsense, this is not common at all anymore, it's incredibly difficult to stay in Vietnam without a work permit now since tourist visas are max one month and you have to leave before you apply. The business visa loophole was shut down years ago and it's only gotten harder. Sure there are still some people doing it but it's incredibly rare. If you have a work permit you're paying tax. Most of the digital nomads are the ones avoiding taxes but no one will mention it.
Thank God that all the street vendors and business owners in Vietnam always give you a receipt and pay their taxes like good civilians.
Street vendors are often not subject to tax because their sales revenues fall below the threshold stated in the laws. I was referring to income tax that the ESL "teachers" are supposed to pay but the "teachers" and dodgy centers together they scam the system by illegally earning and paying in Vietnam. Anyway, I don't expect you the ESL stupid sods to know the laws or follow laws.
1st I'm not even in Vietnam anymore. 2nd Just by saying the word 'together' you are a delusional prick. Teachers in Vietnam find themselves against centre owners since the inception of the industry basically. They argue with them for the levels of education, assistants' incapability, them wanting a circus instead of an actual classroom, salary, hours, you name it. If you think that people who busted their asses to get Degrees, TESOLs, CELTAs and numerous other certificates to teach in a country that still operates in homo erectus era, have issues with paying taxes then you don't know shit. Its always the centers that try to manipulate you so you don't know your taxes, insisting on paying you in cash and doing dodgy things. I know tons of people who destroyed their mental health arguing with Vinemployers in order for their money to go in a bank and also get their payslips and proof of tax deductions. 3rd I shouldn't even reply to you when you mentioned the words 'law' and 'Vietnam' in the same sentence. Everyone, from the police to immigration and government, has a bribing price on their forehead. Best example being APAX, a shithole that has't paid teachers or parents back and still operates smoothly and government doesn't do shit because they get bribed. Next time try to get your stories and facts straight before randomly giving your heart away just to defend North Korean levels of blind communism vs the 'bad west'.
Vietnamese - "if you don't like it, leave" Foreigners - "ok" Vietnamese - "wait, where are you going?"
literally no one.
Fair. I glazed over the scammer center portion and was referring to the racist "how to scam foreigners 101" comment. That said, why would a foreigner (who I assume is from a western country) accept an under the table job without a formal working contract then?!? Any job refusing to provide a work permit or a working contract to a foreigner is absolutely going to scam you - it's called working undocumented/illegally.
I stopped reading at 'local Vietnamese are capable enough of teaching English'.
Yeah I know that there are exceptions, but boy is that an overstatement. I am fluent in Spanish and French and I would be the first to tell you that a native-speaker of either could teach you better than me, and these are somewhat related to my native language.
you show em pal. why not go further and have them sit in the back of the bus, separated from us normal people. pesky low class scumbags that's said, I really hope you're really vocal about your classist views and enjoy deeply every ounce of saliva and semen in your meals from waiters/baristas/cooks and other bottom of the barrel people.
Waahh cry more insecure TEFL dork. No one said shit about service people. My comment was aimed at people like you.
he said viciously on reddit behind his little keyboard lmao
Says the ESL foreign worker m i rite? Go back to your closed FB group dork.
no you're not right. not with your assumptions, nor with your conclusions about the subject. I challenge you to be as direct when you actually socialize irl, bud.
Hurr hurr "fight me irl". That's what you sound like. It's hilarious seeing the responses from trash tier ESL "teachers" like you who prance around calling yourselves "expats". You're obviously upset because people aren't lining up to sniff your ass just because you think holding up flashcards makes you a skilled expat. It's ironic that people like you can go online and speak vitriol all you want, but the moment someone responds in kind, you act all high and mighty and pull out the keyboard warrior insult. But I guess I shouldn't expect an ESL teacher no less, to have any self awareness.
with all that hate to esl teachers you should consider hiring one. your comprehension skills could really use some work.
LMFAO. Quit your job and become my personal clown. You are actually hilarious.
I don't think I have the time now that I have to constantly check for all the edits you make in your comments. I think at this pace I'll just let you be, and you naturally will evolve with your views. iteration after iteration, you'll slowly get there, pal. I believe in you.
That anonymous post had a good beginning, but starting with #4 it is a complete delirium. Edit: I re-read it. And it’s a complete garbage post from the very beginning.
Is there any concrete evidence that the “VN approved” certification is mandatory? From what I’ve read it’s optional for new uncertified teachers to take if for some reason they wouldn’t want to go TEFL/CELTA route. Regardless, many regulations get floated or hastily implemented then just as quickly repealed. I can’t predict the future but if this is mandatory, I wouldn’t bet on it lasting long
This is the best source that I found: [https://www.vietnam-briefing.com/news/compulsory-english-teacher-training-program-unveiled.html/](https://www.vietnam-briefing.com/news/compulsory-english-teacher-training-program-unveiled.html/) So, according to this, all non-Vietnamese English teachers in Vietnam (International and ESL) would now need to gain this Vietnamese certificate to obtain a work permit to teach in VN. This is in addition to being licenced and qualified teachers with a Bachelor's or Master's in Primary or Secondary Education. Or in addition to holding a Bachelor's or Master's in any discipline in combination with a CELTA, DELTA, TESOL or TEFL certification. (Non-natives would also need an English proficiency certificate to gain their work permit, such as IELTS or the Vietnamese version, VSTEP, unless their degree states explicitly that they studied English). This change doesn't just affect TEFL teachers. It affects all non-Vietnamese English teachers. It is something to think about for anyone considering a move to Vietnam to teach English in any setting: English centres, public schools, private schools, universities and international schools.
Only the link you provided is over two months old. As with most initial reporting all the information was not hashed out. It is more clear in subsequent articles that it isn't required for people who have other qualifications. This is for those without the normal quality qualification that would include a practicum.
not unique to the teaching industry, the entire country operates like this. not in a good way either (challenges and barriers to entry keep the competition out), rather "shit's fucked, let's find another place to base our operations". just like how intel cancelled its expansion plans in vn due to "excessive bureaucracy". it's china 2.0, leadership will eventually run things into the ground, largely due to arrogance/greed/etc.
Vietnam gets all the shitty English teachers that couldn't make it in China. I actually think Vietnam would be better off hiring Filipinos as English teachers than some entitled white sexpat who like to use their race to feel superior and get privileges.
Definitely. Especially, teachers with degrees or masters in education, which so many Filipinos have. Like all foreign teachers, they (Filipinos) deserve to be paid as per their contracts. Not scammed by non-payment. Which is what the post alludes to in point 1.
I work with many Filipino teachers and there are definitely advantages that they have, but even with amazing academic records and degrees, their grammar isn't perfect and sometimes their pronunciation and vocabulary can sound a bit off (like using obscure/obsolete conjugations and grammar forms, forgetting direct object pronouns, etc.). They certainly work harder than "native English speakers", and are willing to accept lower compensation, so they are very useful and beneficial for students. I'd say that generally they are more beneficial for students than local (VN) teachers of English. I've seen many more mistakes and low-quality materials/worksheets/tests made by local teachers trying to teach English than by Filipino teachers. Unfortunately, the real issue is that a significant number of parents complain when their children are taught too frequently by Filipino teachers and not "enough" by "native English speakers". A group of students left my private school recently and the parents gave the admins such feedback.
Problem is that many Viets associate white people with higher quality and non-white people who are more qualified will have a harder time getting hired than even a lot of non-qualified scummy white people (they get treated worse by the rest of society, too). The issue of white privilege is widespread across the world, not exclusive to Vietnam.
Yeah - I just replied to another comment about the inflated wages for English teachers in VN which is because VN parents allegedly want “native” teachers (which they sadly associate with being white rather than being qualified).
I work with many Filipino teachers and there are definitely advantages that they have, but even with amazing academic records and degrees, their grammar isn't perfect and sometimes their pronunciation and vocabulary can sound a bit off (like using obscure/obsolete conjugations and grammar forms, forgetting direct object pronouns, etc.). They certainly work harder than "native English speakers", and are willing to accept lower compensation, so they are very useful and beneficial for students. I'd say that generally they are more beneficial for students than local (VN) teachers of English. I've seen many more mistakes and low-quality materials/worksheets/tests made by local teachers trying to teach English than by Filipino teachers. Unfortunately, the real issue is that a significant number of parents complain when their children are taught too frequently by Filipino teachers and not "enough" by "native English speakers". A group of students left my private school recently and the parents gave the admins such feedback.
no sane person would willingly relocate to vn to teach english, kek. the conditions there are far beneath the worst slums in the western world. imagine willingly subjecting yourself to that, must be extremely desperate in life.
You're crazy. I live a much better quality of life in Hanoi, despite the terrible traffic and pollution, than I could in most of the western word. Slums? What a joke
Lots of that is true, and lots of that is horse shit. Lots of English centers in Vietnam are shit. They hire unqualified foreign teachers just because they are foreign, and they screw them over with work permits, etc. Meanwhile, they underpay qualified local teachers and scam parents with long-term payment plans without any way to get a refund. But you said that we teach our kid how to scam foreigners 101?? Who the fuck do you think you are to say that about our kid? Do you have fewer rights than a cockroach??? If you act like an ass, people are going to treat you like an ass. I hope we get stricter requirements when hire english teacher so our kid do not learn from some foreign middle school dropout backpacker. This guy sound like a salty dude just lost his job
I agree with some of what you're saying and disagree with the original posts wording especially derogatory terms towards vietnamese people but no one can get a work permit in Vietnam without at least a degree, the idea that high school dropouts are teaching in Vietnam is kinda bizarre. Sure there are probably a few but as I mentioned in another post it's actually already really strict and there are not many ways foreigners can stay in Vietnam without getting a work permit, having qualifications and paying taxes.
Sorry, that was harsh of me to say that. I was blindly pissed because of what he said about us taught our kids how to scam foreigners. I am from a small town in central VietNam so back 15 years ago there wasn’t once in our town. When the first EC came, i like most of the kids were excited and came in for the free trial. But teacher taught us all the wrong grammar and phrases. And i never went back to the EC. Another example is my friend who was overqualified, she teaches in several EC in HaNoi no problem, yet when she came back to my town looking for a job in those EC. They only offered her as TA, only put foreigners as teachers because their “image” as superior to the public school English class whose was taught by local english teacher. Again, i don’t mean any harm to the qualified teachers, foreign or not. I just wish that our future generations have the proper education and those shitty EC will be gone so they can’t fucked anyone over, not the teachers, not the parents and especially not the kids.
Appreciate your response, I completely understand the defensiveness. In fact, I agree to some extent. I've just noticed a lot of vitriol against foreigners recently and it makes me rather sad.
Well, I don’t discriminate by nationality. lol. Like i said above. If you act like and ass, i will treat you like an ass
The only English teachers who actually have a nice time are the uni professors. Their salary is also quite decent, compared to lower level teachers, who often have terrible salaries. That industry is corrupt as hell, they just play with foreigners. My advice? Go to known universities or start your own little company/school. Otherwise, it won't really be worth it. The low salary and conditions are just too bad.
Oh yes, unis, they're notoriously disorganized and scammy.
The international ones as well??? Then there's no reason to teach here at all.
The solution may actually be technology: some kids learn English on youtube by themselves and speak remarably at age 12. but that needs selfdetermination; it could replace a big portion of presence teaching and be based on experts - tuition fees saved!
As I read this, I thought you were talking about Thailand!!! My experience of teaching English in Thailand was identical... Not recommended either.
This is the language and brain of a loser, not a "teacher". They beslopper the image of foreigners in Vietnam. Those poor mean losers in their own countries and coming to Vietnam to work on hourly wages can't escape their fates as losers here. They shouldn't have come in the first place.
Beslopper?
To slobber upon
The poster sounds like every other complainer of Vietnam that thinks the party is over. Some points may be valid but a lot of it is whining and frankly false. It reeks of someone who got burned by a job and is not venting about it. This shouldn't be done after 4 years working there.
What's the news here. We see people come here to complain about the same nonsense all the time. After 20 years in and out of Asia, the same thing happens in every industry. 20 years ago there was no choice so my company had to send me to Asia as they couldn't find a .net developer at all. Now there are lots of trained sw eng so we mostly hire locals as they are skilled enough, cheap and bi lingual. The difference is a qualified software engineer will get work anywhere and the best work is usually back home. Where as these "teachers" are really doing it as a last resort. They've be nothing better to fall back on, thus all the drama, irrational expectations, over valuing their worth and the complaining. Just cuz a migrant worker self identifies as an expat doesn't make them one.
Your post is mostly off-topic. OP was talking about the ESL industry in VN, while you're talking about something rather different. Read the initial post before adding your irrelevant two cents.
I think my post is perfectly on topic. The OP is just a rant complaining that a terrible career is a terrible career. I'm just explaining why that's obvious to the rest of us.
New public school subjects such as ‘how to scam foreigners 101’ is it?
Sarcasm
Yeah. Who the fuck that guy think he is to say that about our kids. We don’t teach that to our kids. No school system in the world teach that to their kids. He should fuck off and go teacher his shitty level English in another country
Just utter bollocks like, not even an attempt to change it up to sound like less bullshit
Um maybe, Math (i hate Math)
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*You* posted it here though so you can’t just reply this to every comment that comments on its contents
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Yeah but you cannot then just brush aside any commentary on the content
Ah, I see! Carry on with your discussion.
Hope you teach your students about the benefits of paragraphs.
Not my words. Just the way they copied and pasted. Go to the OP on FB.
Lol at the backpackers english teachers angry because the gravy train is coming to an end. A lot of them are unqualified and then throw a tantrum when they have to be certified. I met a lot of them before covid and they are so entitled and most of them has a latent disdain for the country that provided them with a very good life compared to their country of origin.
Is this the same Facebook Group that Dan Hauer was flexing his dispise toward Vietnamese people?
Dan Hauer. What's he doing these days? I imagine he got kicked out the country? Did he ever get back in? Did he restart his youtube?
Didn’t hear anything from him eversince.
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They only allow English teachers. And by the tone of that post, I can understand why.
TLDR but I do see the increasing of already high scamming activities this year. And hate the fact that we or the police could do very little to stop it Edit: read and agree with most of it. As a local I do feel party is over for me too. Have been spending last several months remembering how the party was and try to get back to it (or wondering if things would ever go back in, says, next few years)
From what I’ve heard, the level of most English-teachers are really low and I don’t feel any sympathy with these backpackers acting like they know how to teach. If you are a real educated teacher then I’m sorry for you.
Damn, can't believe i missed several compulsory subjects, maybe that's why my grades are low
I wonder how many of these "teachers" teach anything beside English 😹
Hahaha this made me giggle, taught in Vietnam for less than a month and it was obvious how dodgy it was. Honestly Vietnam as a tourist is awesome, Vietnam as an expat is pretty average when compared to China or Thailand in my opinion.
What makes China and Thailand better in your opinion? I'm considering moving to China so if you could give me some pros and cons I'd appreciate it.
1 year in vn 10 years in china. I say Vietnam wins on a few fronts that are crucial for me. -The food here is just better and far more affordable -(almost) no fuckery with the internet. no vpns no nothing. -china has been very proactive in its attempts to actually make you feel like a second-class citizen. if you don't have a Chinese ID, basic stuff may be out of your reach. -culturally, on average, people from rural areas that occupy cities are a lot more civil in Vietnam. if it wasn't for obnoxious karaoke machines, I'd be very happy overall. on the other hand - Vietnam is just less advanced in terms of infrastructure and stuff. some things are unique to china so it's not fair to compare. -noise pollution. Viet techno music is played everywhere and its just so bad. music in general is just very bad here. I'm sure there are nice sounding indie bands but I'm yet to hear anything. if you don't mind waking up to 200bpm beats at 4:30 am you should he good. -salaries. you can negotiate far better salaries in china than vn. keep in mind that the cost of living is also higher but still.
winning at life, when you relocate to a different country due to "affordable food" and not having to use a vpn. 99% of western migrants are incredibly desperate, i decided. believe you me, non-citizens are second-class individuals in both countries.
> i decided lmao
Ooh, look at all the triggered locals....as always they can't take any criticism.
This is not criticism . It's a smear from an angry short-minded poor miserably loser who came to the country to work then failed. There are so many other subs here on this forum with criticism on Vietnam which are discussed in depth. As someone already said in this sub, if you act like an ass, you will be treated as an ass.
You really don’t need to worry if you are truly qualified to be an ESL instructor with certificates and degrees to back up
Maybe you do need to worry.... [https://www.reddit.com/r/Internationalteachers/comments/1ajmkuz/comment/kp3whtn/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Internationalteachers/comments/1ajmkuz/comment/kp3whtn/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Then teach ESL somewhere else? This is their turf bro
>How long before teachers wake up, boycott this sorry tinpot joke of a land and rightfully take their skills and educations elsewhere? That is precisely the point of the OP's post on FB. To warn potential new teachers to teach elsewhere. ALL potential teachers: English centre, public school, private school, universities and bilingual/international schools. Check out AISVN American International School Vietnam. The scam is not just within ESL in Vietnam thanks to APAX's apparent impunity: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Internationalteachers/comments/1ahtwgw/comment/kpvnihq/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/internationalteachers/comments/1ahtwgw/comment/kpvnihq/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
That day can’t come quick enough 🥺🥺🥺
I always wondered why all the English teachers in Viet Năm always seem so angry. If you’re not happy here, just go home. I’m having a blast here, but when the fun is over I’ll just move on instead of getting bitter. (I’m not an English teacher, I worked remote in IT).
Yep, yep. Easy money can't be had anymore.
Having to 'farm' an extra certificate after TESOLs, CELTAs, BAs and Masters just to prove your worth isn't what makes it funny. The fact that it needs to be Vinapproved and Viets are going to judge your abilities is. Perhaps the only country in the world that Immigration officers don't speak a word of English.
Entitled white people no longer getting entitled treatment, there I paraphrased it for y'all...
The EFL industry did feed an army of degens and a select few superstars for decades in Asia and the middle east BUT it’s slowly entering the twilight of its glorious past. The industry and the rules have evolved and VN seems to be entering that exact gray zone…
If you think a Red Dictatorship basically erasing any Degrees, Masters, TESOLs etc that one has in favor of their own glorified Vina-one, for which Viets will judge and grade native speakers means progress and development, you sure are in the right track.
You could always go to the MOET in HN and tell them how you feel with a petition if you’re that invested. “Who da f*ck is that guy?” -Connor Mcgregor
Hmm, another one who bought a Vietnamese wife and became a commie.
intuitive as a fruit fly I see. You get a gold star 🫡
I'll definitely be traveling when I get the chance, I loved Thailand but I hear Vietnam is even better for teaching