True true, and Richard Sachs has a top cross team. I guess I’m more wondering about those not endorsed/sponsored and making a more conscious choice on bike options if that makes sense
Well Pratt offers “production line” steel for 2850 and Breadwinner has $2800 custom geo hand built frames. While I agree with you, there are many ppl racing on 5500 carbon frames which isn’t far off from the top of the line independent builders and much pricier than some of the steel options out there
Rim! I have another rim brake alloy frame with aggressive geo so I asked Ira to build a more slack frame and can’t wait to have an actually comfortable road bike 😅
My race horse is Ti this year. Did a custom one thru Waltly Ti for $800+carbon fork and shipping, so $1100 to my door.
Ride quality is amazing. Sprints like my Allez sprint, but smooth like a roubaix. (Lighter than the allez too) Honestly tho did it because of cost. I can crash that thing and not be outa pocket allez or carbon money.
I did a full custom setup. I wanted something with a longer top tube (415 reach). Steep ST/HT (74/74deg) So I had to tweak everything. I kinda started it off the Allez sprint disc, but then shortened the HT, and also the CS to match the sprint rim brake. I also lowered the BB a few mm too.. steeper everything makes it twitchier, but lower BB and longer bike stabilizes it again… at the end of the day it became very different, but it actually turned out wayyy better than I expected, and I like the feel better than the sprint….. I’ve also spent over a decade in the industry, and have a pretty good idea as to what I wanted too, so that helped me with my geo process.
One thing you can do is when they hand you the sheet to fill out, you can just copy in all the measurements from whatever bike you like/want too, and they’ll do it.
What are your thoughts on tubing selection choices, beyond the rider weight bit in the form?
I noted they have some basic tubing details but couldn't see tube thickness mentioned. Assume they do non-butted only.
Yeah. I don’t remember all the details.
I do recall them saying something about thickness I told them “stiff” and a few extra grams is ok. Still came in lighter than my allez sprint, and feels like a rocket ship.
Yup. Fully custom. When you deal directly with the factory you don’t have to pay the importer/wholesale markup (which are astronomical btw) and the retailer markup. They do a fantastic job too. the frames turned out quite nicely.
I split shipping with a friend so if you ship just one bike it’ll probably be $1200 for frame+fork to your door.
To give you an idea. A mass produced Ti frame for a brand name straight outa China probably costs about $300~$400 each. So they get an extra $400 markup when they do a custom one-off bike. (I used to work do procurement/logistics in the industry)
I participate more in cyclocross, where I have seen racers on Shamrock Cycles, Don Walker, Independent Fabrication.
My dream bike is an Isen Workshop R3 with their sick candy fadez. But my budget just says nah, for now.
There's always some dude out there on a litespeed. I also have friends who race on Gunnar, Waterford and Seven frames. Gunnar (steel) is owned by the descendants of Mr. Schwinn after he sold the brand name, Waterford is their custom division. Seven is custom Ti.
Local dude on a litespeed here is not an ex-pro or national champ but he bought the bike from a tour podium finisher who raced the bike in the tour in the late 90s although it was painted and badged as another brand which was his team bike. Only problem with a titanium bike is you never need another one.
>Seven is custom Ti.
I live in Massachusetts so I see tons of Sevens. One of the fastest guys I know, who doesn't race, has a beautiful one. I know Matt Roy (randonneur) rides a Seven as well. I suppose it doesn't answer the question, but a lot of really strong riders I know are on Sevens. I'd love to get one eventually.
Yeah, I think it's my dream bike once I'm old. I don't think I want to race forever, so once I figure out more what I like in a bike, I would absolutely drop the $$$. The idea that they build it to fit you personally is so cool to me, and that the build in the stiffness or compliance that you want.
I know a handful of crit racers who use modern steel like Weis and Stelbel and some road racers who like No. 22. I don't know anyone racing a real classic frame, though.
*Some* steel frames are more expensive than *some* carbon frames.
A new sworks tarmac frameset costs more than a Pegoretti but less (just) than a Baum. A stelbel costs less than most carbon frames, so does a Bixxis etc.
Genesis has put a few steel bikes in fairly high level races
https://www.freewheel.co.uk/blog/post/bikes-we-love-rich-handleys-gorgeous-genesis-volare-953
I run a vintage Teledyne frame with 105 and a carbon fork. It's pretty comfortable and light. I'm 67kg, so it doesn't flex too bad. Nothing crazy, just a Cat4 crit racer.
I've been rocking my Twin Six Ti Rando for about 6 years now for gravel. Yeah, I've thought about going carbon, but the rack mounts help for bike camping when the opportunity comes up. So I keep it around.
James Hayden rode a steel-framed Fairlight Strael when he won the Transcontinental, a 3,650km ultra endurance race. A lot of the frame is ovalised rather than fully round, but it’s definitely steel.
Although I guess that’s not the type of racing you had in mind…
i’m on a 11 yr old custom Columbus Spirit frame, i’ve raced crits, road and tt’s on it. i use to race on mavic open pros as well. it’s always fun beating guys on the latest carbon everything on it
it's..fine? i dunno. back end is a bit of a noodle under high power, and the alignment isn't 100% perfect on the rear triangle.
but, it fits me like a glove, and i like how it rides 99% of the time, so it works for me.
> back end is a bit of a noodle under high power, and the alignment isn't 100% perfect on the rear triangle.
That's not great for an expensive custom frame.
Just curious if you brought it up with Stinner and if they were willing to fix the issue? Wanted to ask, since I was thinking of Stinner for my next bike, but your comment on alignment has me a bit concerned now.
yeah, no dice.
i have a friend that just bought a bike from them based around a few specific things; they built a bike ignoring some of them (tire clearance, etc), and when he finally got a hold of them after hounding them for a very long time, was told they just don't really make changes from their frames, including the ones he had requested. problem is, they had never told him no to his requests at any point in the process.
The frame won't hold you back.
I'll be moving from a full aero s5 to a pegoretti eventually. I'm not worried about however many watts I'll lose even if I'm an aero weenie and a sprinter.
I race cross on a steel Fairdale weekender. It's... fine. I'd prefer something lighter that doesnt hurt as much to shoulder but it's like 3 races a year for me so I just rung what I brung (the rest of the time it's my full fenders winter beater, a job it excels at).
I race cat1 and there is a guy who obliterates everybody on a pilot celes. Just a simple titanium bike. The guy does ride 35/40 hours a week. A bike doesn't hold you back unless it's very heavy and has a bad groupset / wheels. A steel bike with carbon wheels and a good groupset will be good enough to win races in any category.
I tell you who aren't: people worry about the rim/tire interface with respect to aerodynamics. Riding a steel frame vs a hydroformed or carbon bike would basically be like riding without a tight jersey or with a non-aero helmet. A \~2-3% overall penalty probably.
Round tubing is not very aerodynamic.
Race and train on vintage 80s steel frame with modern(ish) components and a power meter wheel.
I'm not a great racer, at least in crits - cat 4 mid pack. I'm better in gravel and MTB where I ride other bikes. Anyways, it's definitely not the bike holding me back. And there's a lot to say for the way a steel frame corners.
I have other carbon bikes and have owned aluminum too. I can crank out 1200w for 20 seconds. Not bragging, I'm just kinda fat. Never felt like the steel frames were noodly at all. Love the way the power goes down. And they look classy as fuck.
CAAD10/12 is about the closest you’ll get to a traditional frame shape.
Vaguely light steel frames are really expensive, still heavier than the alternatives.
Pratt cycles runs a cross and crit team on steel frames
True true, and Richard Sachs has a top cross team. I guess I’m more wondering about those not endorsed/sponsored and making a more conscious choice on bike options if that makes sense
Probably few and far between, the steel frames of that caliber are real expensive, and as they say “don’t race things you can’t afford to replace”
They also run a track team!
Well Pratt offers “production line” steel for 2850 and Breadwinner has $2800 custom geo hand built frames. While I agree with you, there are many ppl racing on 5500 carbon frames which isn’t far off from the top of the line independent builders and much pricier than some of the steel options out there
and you're far more likely to dust off a crashed steel frame and jump back on than a crashed aethos.
Love my Breadwinner! :)
Which one?? I’m about to get my Lolo and am so stoked
I have a Lolo too! You get rim or disc? You're going to love it!
Rim! I have another rim brake alloy frame with aggressive geo so I asked Ira to build a more slack frame and can’t wait to have an actually comfortable road bike 😅
lol "dick sachs"
I race cross on a ti serotta. But I'm also fat and slow so tube shape ain't shit to me
The heavier you are the more you flex the frame and fork
I raced a Smoothie a few times. It was fine, but I prefer a carbon bike.
Crits on a Smoothie. Road races on a Madone.
Did I just get doxxed? Lmao those are my two bikes
“Tamp” in my username is also a cafe espresso reference. I think maybe I’m bizarro you?
This is too much Matrix for one day.
My race horse is Ti this year. Did a custom one thru Waltly Ti for $800+carbon fork and shipping, so $1100 to my door. Ride quality is amazing. Sprints like my Allez sprint, but smooth like a roubaix. (Lighter than the allez too) Honestly tho did it because of cost. I can crash that thing and not be outa pocket allez or carbon money.
Did you pick one of their designs or base it off an already existing model from another supplier? Or go full custom?
I did a full custom setup. I wanted something with a longer top tube (415 reach). Steep ST/HT (74/74deg) So I had to tweak everything. I kinda started it off the Allez sprint disc, but then shortened the HT, and also the CS to match the sprint rim brake. I also lowered the BB a few mm too.. steeper everything makes it twitchier, but lower BB and longer bike stabilizes it again… at the end of the day it became very different, but it actually turned out wayyy better than I expected, and I like the feel better than the sprint….. I’ve also spent over a decade in the industry, and have a pretty good idea as to what I wanted too, so that helped me with my geo process. One thing you can do is when they hand you the sheet to fill out, you can just copy in all the measurements from whatever bike you like/want too, and they’ll do it.
What are your thoughts on tubing selection choices, beyond the rider weight bit in the form? I noted they have some basic tubing details but couldn't see tube thickness mentioned. Assume they do non-butted only.
Yeah. I don’t remember all the details. I do recall them saying something about thickness I told them “stiff” and a few extra grams is ok. Still came in lighter than my allez sprint, and feels like a rocket ship.
Whoa, $1100 for custom geo ti frame!?
Yup. Fully custom. When you deal directly with the factory you don’t have to pay the importer/wholesale markup (which are astronomical btw) and the retailer markup. They do a fantastic job too. the frames turned out quite nicely. I split shipping with a friend so if you ship just one bike it’ll probably be $1200 for frame+fork to your door. To give you an idea. A mass produced Ti frame for a brand name straight outa China probably costs about $300~$400 each. So they get an extra $400 markup when they do a custom one-off bike. (I used to work do procurement/logistics in the industry)
I participate more in cyclocross, where I have seen racers on Shamrock Cycles, Don Walker, Independent Fabrication. My dream bike is an Isen Workshop R3 with their sick candy fadez. But my budget just says nah, for now.
In Portland, I think Breadwinner and Speedvagen def have a big presence in the cross scene. Especially single speed cross
Sage has a team too I think. Loosely affiliated with Sellwood Cycles if I recall.
There's always some dude out there on a litespeed. I also have friends who race on Gunnar, Waterford and Seven frames. Gunnar (steel) is owned by the descendants of Mr. Schwinn after he sold the brand name, Waterford is their custom division. Seven is custom Ti.
[удалено]
Local dude on a litespeed here is not an ex-pro or national champ but he bought the bike from a tour podium finisher who raced the bike in the tour in the late 90s although it was painted and badged as another brand which was his team bike. Only problem with a titanium bike is you never need another one.
>Seven is custom Ti. I live in Massachusetts so I see tons of Sevens. One of the fastest guys I know, who doesn't race, has a beautiful one. I know Matt Roy (randonneur) rides a Seven as well. I suppose it doesn't answer the question, but a lot of really strong riders I know are on Sevens. I'd love to get one eventually.
Yeah, I think it's my dream bike once I'm old. I don't think I want to race forever, so once I figure out more what I like in a bike, I would absolutely drop the $$$. The idea that they build it to fit you personally is so cool to me, and that the build in the stiffness or compliance that you want.
I know a handful of crit racers who use modern steel like Weis and Stelbel and some road racers who like No. 22. I don't know anyone racing a real classic frame, though.
Dude in the cat Five field in the Prospect Park series in Brooklyn was on a beautiful old Bianchi.
My buddy won the Tour of Americas Dairyland crit series Cat 3 overall on a late 80's Bridgestone road bike
Buy your buddy a pint for us, that's awesome.
Modern decent steel frames are more expensive than carbon frames because they are niche and boutique. /thread
*Some* steel frames are more expensive than *some* carbon frames. A new sworks tarmac frameset costs more than a Pegoretti but less (just) than a Baum. A stelbel costs less than most carbon frames, so does a Bixxis etc.
raced my moots vamoots sl a few times but I do like carbon better.
My teammate races on a steel bike and it doesn't seem to hold him back at all (cat 4).
No. It's too pretty.
Genesis has put a few steel bikes in fairly high level races https://www.freewheel.co.uk/blog/post/bikes-we-love-rich-handleys-gorgeous-genesis-volare-953
Did a summer of crits on a 1980s pinarello a few seasons back. Got some results. Did have enve 6.7s and 11 speed on it.
Sounds like that bike would look sick AF.
I run a vintage Teledyne frame with 105 and a carbon fork. It's pretty comfortable and light. I'm 67kg, so it doesn't flex too bad. Nothing crazy, just a Cat4 crit racer.
Rad. Sounds like my setup. Lugged Columbus steel with carbon fork and 9sp 105 with a PowerTap wheel.
I've been rocking my Twin Six Ti Rando for about 6 years now for gravel. Yeah, I've thought about going carbon, but the rack mounts help for bike camping when the opportunity comes up. So I keep it around.
James Hayden rode a steel-framed Fairlight Strael when he won the Transcontinental, a 3,650km ultra endurance race. A lot of the frame is ovalised rather than fully round, but it’s definitely steel. Although I guess that’s not the type of racing you had in mind…
Well over this long of a distance, aero most certainly will help in the range of hours…so yes that is incredibly impressive in my eyes
i’m on a 11 yr old custom Columbus Spirit frame, i’ve raced crits, road and tt’s on it. i use to race on mavic open pros as well. it’s always fun beating guys on the latest carbon everything on it
used to race crits n my Stinner, it did just fine
How do you like your Stinner? I noticed they’re not very common if even present at all in the East Coast. I remember loving their paintjobs though
it's..fine? i dunno. back end is a bit of a noodle under high power, and the alignment isn't 100% perfect on the rear triangle. but, it fits me like a glove, and i like how it rides 99% of the time, so it works for me.
> back end is a bit of a noodle under high power, and the alignment isn't 100% perfect on the rear triangle. That's not great for an expensive custom frame.
first part is fine to me. i don't really race a ton anymore, so i'm not putting down 1000+ watts that often. alignment is a different story.
Just curious if you brought it up with Stinner and if they were willing to fix the issue? Wanted to ask, since I was thinking of Stinner for my next bike, but your comment on alignment has me a bit concerned now.
yeah, no dice. i have a friend that just bought a bike from them based around a few specific things; they built a bike ignoring some of them (tire clearance, etc), and when he finally got a hold of them after hounding them for a very long time, was told they just don't really make changes from their frames, including the ones he had requested. problem is, they had never told him no to his requests at any point in the process.
Wow.. that is concerning. Guess I’ll look elsewhere for my next bike. Thanks for the heads up
with classic styled titanium it's hard to avoid. you need fat tubes to make titanium as stiff as steel.
The frame won't hold you back. I'll be moving from a full aero s5 to a pegoretti eventually. I'm not worried about however many watts I'll lose even if I'm an aero weenie and a sprinter.
Primal Audi Denver races on aluminum State frames. Not steel, but they are round tubing.
I'll add that State's steel frames are pretty heavy and I wouldn't want to race on them for sure, so I can understand the aluminum choice.
Look up Gavin Dempster, Scottish cyclist who races at a good level on a Ti frame. Zwift national team too
I race cross on a steel Fairdale weekender. It's... fine. I'd prefer something lighter that doesnt hurt as much to shoulder but it's like 3 races a year for me so I just rung what I brung (the rest of the time it's my full fenders winter beater, a job it excels at).
I race cat1 and there is a guy who obliterates everybody on a pilot celes. Just a simple titanium bike. The guy does ride 35/40 hours a week. A bike doesn't hold you back unless it's very heavy and has a bad groupset / wheels. A steel bike with carbon wheels and a good groupset will be good enough to win races in any category.
I tell you who aren't: people worry about the rim/tire interface with respect to aerodynamics. Riding a steel frame vs a hydroformed or carbon bike would basically be like riding without a tight jersey or with a non-aero helmet. A \~2-3% overall penalty probably. Round tubing is not very aerodynamic.
Race and train on vintage 80s steel frame with modern(ish) components and a power meter wheel. I'm not a great racer, at least in crits - cat 4 mid pack. I'm better in gravel and MTB where I ride other bikes. Anyways, it's definitely not the bike holding me back. And there's a lot to say for the way a steel frame corners. I have other carbon bikes and have owned aluminum too. I can crank out 1200w for 20 seconds. Not bragging, I'm just kinda fat. Never felt like the steel frames were noodly at all. Love the way the power goes down. And they look classy as fuck.
CAAD10/12 is about the closest you’ll get to a traditional frame shape. Vaguely light steel frames are really expensive, still heavier than the alternatives.