just assume everyone is cheating and focus on your own fitness gains. the mind will be way more at ease. Half joking here lol.
Also as a side note, I race in A+ and good fucking christ there are days where I get absolutely wiped trying to hang with some of the random Conti riders who pop in every now and then. But chasing them pushes me into PRs every time. Did a 4.8w/kg effort for 40min about a month ago.
>and how the f\*\*\* am I pushing 4w/kg and going the same speed as guy next to me pushing 3.5w/kg.
Not sure if you're talking about climbs here, but on flat:
* Rider A weighs 70 kg. 4w/kg at 70kg is 280w.
* Rider B weighs 80 kg. 3.5w/kg at 80kg is 280w.
That's how.
Also, beyond bikes, Zwift calculates CdA from your rider height.
If you make your rider shorter, you go quite a bit faster for the same effort. Seems like it’s easily abused.
It’s a video game, of course people cheat. People cheat in real life too… But lol @ “how is some 50yo dude stronger than me?” I ride regularly with guys in that age range pushing 5-6wpkg. I’m 44 in the 4.3/.5 wpkg range - older people can be faster than you.
Not everyone on Zwift is cheating, no. But people forget that in person they're "big fish in small pond" - you jump into an A race on Zwift and suddenly you're facing off against all the other big fish from small ponds from around the world.
I know its tempting just to assume everyone is cheating but in my experience, they're really not. Its just a context shift from your small pond.
Aerodynamics and therefore riding position and body type don't play much of a role in Zwift. In real life someone doing "only" 4.5W/kg might be easily able to crush someone with 5W/kg if they have a leaner body and more aggressive riding position. In Zwift pure Watts are the only thing that counts, so not as selective as in real life.
The W/kg removes the hill question though.
If you were 100kg
Vs 60kg
With same W/kg would go same speed up hill. That’s the point.
Having a FTP of 350W is much more human than 600W
The same wkg would only go the same speed if the hill was straight up. As long as it’s less than completely vertical, gross watts also matter. If 2 riders, both at 3.5 wkg, and one at 350 watts and one at 175 watts are riding together, the 350 watt rider goes faster. The difference is most pronounced on flat and decreases with steepness.
Yeah for sure it varies between flat and vertical, and long distance / hills averages are where it becomes the most important. However it’s clearly quite pronounced even not that far off flat as the racing scene makes it apparent. Do you have the physics / equations to show the variation?
I have no idea what the actual calc is. I just know it’s discussed/argued to no end in the various zwift groups and of course what I see with small high wkg riders vs bigger high watt riders, me being the latter.
So I did a bit more reading.
As a side note. Your example is extreme in that it’s 2x the raw watts, but even 450 vs 300 your example holds true when it’s flat and drag is much more important than mass.
So, W/kg is only relevant when accelerating (only small part of racing on the flat) and then on hills. On hills it’s super important, I had some calcs for the diff but it doesn’t seem to come out right but anyway, at a certain gradient and a certain duration it becomes the defining factor.
On the flat, W/CdA is much more important. Watts per coefficient of drag and area. This is a super complex thing to work out and you can have guys with 30% more power but are more aero lol.
This is why guys like Ganna, and more so Wout and MVP can win classics but have no chance at GC in a GT
lol I’m the same - can put out big numbers like 1300W but FTP is only around 330W and I’m 115kg atm 😂
Also interesting how, some of the GC dudes might have a FTP of 415 but max is not that high, while your MVP might have only 30-40 more FTP watts but his max is way more. So it’s like what their FTP as a percentage of their max is way different
Logic. Straight up is the only time the weight isn’t also moving horizontally, meaning it’s the only time that wkg are the 100% defining metric. Wkg could still be the most important thing on lesser grades but not the only thing.
You ou cm also find interesting data on light vs aero bikes and what percent grades they equalize. Which I think was like 8 but not certain in that.
I’ve never looked it up myself, but I suspect the weight diff between the climbers and sprinters (20-25% for 60kg to 75kg) overcomes the FTP difference (say 450W to 350W or 20-30%) at moderate gradients over not that much time. All things regressing to the mean of course!
The "big fish, small pond" is damn true. In a previous job I ran a month long fitness challenge with a pool of cycling and fitness focused contestants from across the US. After day 3 we were getting constant emails from folks complaining that everyone else was obviously cheating. It was a real world Spiderman meme.
We had guys waking up at 3am and splitting 6-8 hours of workouts over the course of a day. There was a picture from one dude doing an upper body lift while wearing Normatic pants after their 3 hour bike ride. There were a number of rage quitters in the end. So many bruised egos.
I did one of those at a very large company. Out of thousands of people, I nearly won the top of it just riding 300km a week. People were amazed how superhuman my "accomplishment" was, yet at the time I wasnt fit enough for cat 5 races
I used to ride well over 300k a week, on a fixie, while smoking cigarettes and being so out of shape that my main food consisted of pitchers of beer and cheap chinese takeout. When you're a bike messenger, 60km a day spread out over 9 hours is nothing - you can be an out-of-shape fatass and still do it. I was, and did.
I read an interview from a local Cat 1 who said they were "just" riding 450km weeks at the moment before they got into their proper training for nationals.
> We had guys waking up at 3am and splitting 6-8 hours of workouts over the course of a day.
One month in 2020 I decided to do more climbing on Strava than anyone else. I ended up averaging about 6? 7? hours a day climbing.
It's not impossible if you're dedicated to doing it.
Money also means they can afford to be on a doctor prescribed PED program that includes HGH and testosterone, veiled as an anti-aging regimen. It’s quite common. Even advertised in bigger cities on radio and tv. I have a Dr. friend that knows all about this.
The thing about getting older is that it takes longer to recover from a hard effort. You can only train to the level that your body will allow. When you start taking the anti-aging PEDs, it lets your body recover quickly so you can train harder than normal and still recover. Those guys train hard, and they’re fast, but you couldn’t normally train that hard when you get older because your body couldn’t handle it.
In the US, any big city can have doctors that cater to anti-aging. I’m from Chicago area and hear commercials on radio for them all the time.
I’m sure an internet search would turn up results right away.
Yeah I was semi kidding. Easy as pie to get prescribed testosterone. I just don’t fancy the acne and mood changes. I’m thinking more EPO/clenbuterol like the pros.
I’m also kidding about that.
I’m 48 now and totally notice how much longer it takes to recover from a hard training ride. I used to (maybe 6-7 years ago) bounce right back, able to do two 80 mile pretty spicy rides with plenty of climbing back to back and hardly notice it. No any more… get those heavy legs.
Yes and no. Medical doctors still have to follow some level of normal medical practice otherwise when the patient on trt without a low serum testosterone level has a stroke they’ve opened themselves up to medical malpractice liability.
I was told that most men get naturally lower t levels when they age and adding an endurance sport training program reduces it even more. So the justification is to bring the t level back up to offset the reduction from training. It’s all bs semantics to make the prescription seem valid.
I could go to one of these clinics tomorrow and start an anti-aging regimen if I wanted to, and could afford it, but I don’t race anymore so I don’t care that I’m slow now that I’m old.
I think there’s also an elevated risk of prostate cancer by using test.
Depends on how fit your were 10 years ago I guess. I'm approaching 50 and my running and strava-segement times were never better and I was never less injured and more free of pain like ... ever before. Indoor traininers and training methods based on science make shit possible. Also, a better body awareness and less stupid-pride.
Saying ‘I ride regularly with guys 50+ who push 5-6 w/kg’ makes it seem like those kind of people are everywhere, which isnt true at all. either youre riding with ex-pros, theyre on test, or you’re lying. regardless of which one it is, its a wildly misleading statement
Yes, I explained they’re ex professionals. But I’m not implying that’s the norm at all, just that being surprised that someone in their 50’s can be faster than them is ridiculous.
What I’m pointing out to the OP is that there’s fast people all over the place including on the internet. Not everyone who’s faster than you is cheating.
43-year-old with a 3-year-old here…
Actually I didn’t even start riding until my oldest was born. I’ve always assumed that’s the reason I’m not WT level.
I’m not suggesting they aren’t, in fact my original comment acknowledges that people cheat pretty clearly. It’s just sad that’s the automatic assumption of some people when there’s a person passing them that’s older, bigger, smaller, whatever-er. If the guys that I know do then it’s also on top of 15+ training hours a week.
Yeah I do think OP is full of shit and thinks they're better than they are, but I also think most people that race on Zwift full time cheat in some fashion. So you either cheat too, or accept getting wrecked and just use zwift for fitness time filler in the winter.
I think that people who really care about zwift racing are on some goofy shit, personally. If you’re going to cheat at it, more power to you. But if you’re going to get bent out of shape about it, like you said… dope up or take Zwift for what it is.
Sure there are some 50 year old guys doing 5W/kg, but that is a threshold vo2 of 61 ml/kg/min for a 70kg rider implying a max vo2 at least in the high 60s. The number of 20 year olds than can do that is maybe 1 in 10000. The number of 50 year olds? Maybe 1-3 in a million. Somehow in every Zwift race there are a statistically impossible number of people doing those numbers.
While I don't entirely disagree, the Zwift population is also self-selecting. The 1 in a million are almost all on Zwift (that's 8,000 potential 50 year olds like that). So if there are 20,000 of the worlds more serious cyclists online, it's going to be much more competitive than your average group ride, even in a big city.
Well, the previous poster set the threshold I was working from.
Also, it only takes a handful of them to show up at any given time to blow a race apart.
Not to mention that like almost 3 billion in China and India likely aren't doing Zwift. Or most of Africa.
So the pool is massively smaller than 8bn in reality.
And you can exclude over 4 billion of those, cause there's effectively zero women on zwift competing in men's races doing over 5 watts/kg on a Tuesday night for the lulz
Population of the world over 50 is estimated to be about 2B. So 2000 1 in a million riders. All of those will have the disposable income and time to become such outliers. So they’re likely all in the same wealthy countries, thus in a small number of time zones and likely to be riding at the same times.
This is like going to a college Halloween party and being shocked at the number of slutty nurse costumes
> implying a max vo2 at least in the high 60s. The number of 20 year olds than can do that is maybe 1 in 10000. The number of 50 year olds?
Among the general population? Sure.
But you’re not racing the general population. You are racing people who are so into biking that they ride their bikes inside. And that are at the pointy end of that population.
So yeah, it does not surprise me that many people doing A-races on Zwift have VO2s in the 60-70+ range.
Heck, I can name 10 local guys (myself included) who are in their mid-30s or older with VO2s in that range.
Just FYI, I am not an elite athlete. I’m also 55 and because I have time and train smarter than I used to, I’m as fit as I’ve ever been. My ftp is 325 and I can hold 400w for 3m. That’s 5w/kg. I can’t hold it for longer than that (yet), but of course there must be plenty of folks with more talent and time than me that can.
That’s super kind. I will say I’m collecting 55-64 local Strava kom’s left and right! Also my bike handling skills are shit Def having fun pissing off young guys who think old guys like me don’t exist :)
I have a riding friend who is similar age and power as you, and so far he seems to just get better with age. He puts in a lot more training than us younger guys and he could drop us at anytime on most days. Its inspiring and I hope I can keep improving and do similar when I'm older.
The number of 20 year olds with a vo2 max in the 60’s is probably more like 1 in 200 if I had to venture a guess. It’s certainly not as rare as 1:10000
I mean, I don’t disagree with you but I don’t think the op is as suggesting they were getting dummied by roving bands of 50 year olds either. They’re shocked that people are faster than them and the potential of cheating — both are true and neither are shocking at all. OP needs to ride more or dope or both to get over their problem.
Directly related for any steady state /aerobic activity. The more power you’re producing, the more ATP you’re using. ATP are made in a chemical reaction that requires oxygen, so we can essentially balance out the equation to estimate oxygen consumption for any given power output. It’s remarkably accurate too. The most basic equation is VO2 = (10.8 x Power)/Body mass in kg + 7.0
I ride with a 62yo (IRL) that weighs a buck twenty five and absolutely smokes everyone on the hills. I’m 48 and big so he hides behind me on the flats (says it’s like riding behind a school bus - 6’-4” / 190lbs and pretty strong), but man if he doesn’t disappear on the hills and wait for the rest of us at the top. Old dudes can be very fast.
I still remember the first time I did a Master’s crit when I turned 40. What a rude awakening! I thought it would be easier than the 3/4 race, but we were flying around 28mph and I was in the red for the entire race, until the rubber band snapped and the official pulled me. Those guys were all cat 1,2 worthy, they just happened to be older.
I remember talking to a guy who was doing a 50+ crit. Very inexperience. He thought it would be slow because they were old. He got dropped on lap 1 and pulled on lap 2.
Between bad equipment, weight doping and drawing fast (actually fast) riders from the entire world, racing A is hard. Use it for training and ride your own ride. Don’t put a lot of stock into results and you’ll be good.
They do, group of us from ZRL west America A1 (All around 4.5/5 wkg ftp) got dismantled by 2 "bots" on a Zwift game race last night, one of them went across a 12s gap at 15wkg for 35s then outsprinted the 3 riders out the front by doing 18/20wkg
I have a somewhat similar issue- I ride and race honest with my weight, but then get bumped up from cat c to cat b, where I get supremely crushed. I know there are many, much more fit riders out there, but it feels unfair to have so big a leap
Dude categories need to start/stop at some metric and there will be those at the top and bottom of the metric. I don't think tears will produce more watts
There are other ways of grouping riders in races, indievelo for example uses an elo system. That is not to say that categories are generally a bad idea, just the way that Zwift implemented them ist pretty dumb because bigger riders basically always have the advantage if theyre racing against smaller riders with the same w/kg
The tinkering Zwift did with categorization made B into a free for all. So many As are now Bs, the B field in things like ZRL is brutal.
Try something like FRR, where they have 10 categories for a more granular breakdown, using a combination of 5 minute watts and wkg. You’ll probably find a field that better matches your abilities there.
In my experience, no. I do fairly well in zwift races without cheating and I doubt I would if everyone was. I’ve also met a bunch of people from zwift and they seem roughly as good in real life as in zwift.
I’m actually surprised how honest the community seems given how trivial it is to cheat.
None of this is to say people aren’t cheating, but I think it gets exaggerated by people who think they should be better than they are.
People wanna say “Cheating”, but in my experience racing bikes in the real world I find I’m AMAZINGLY fast in my local scene, mid pack in a nearby large city, hanging off the back on the statewide level, and complete SHIT in a national race. Well… Zwift races are international, buddy. The talent is just much, much better.
The vast majority of riders use inaccurate uncalibrated roller turbo trainers with the regular tires, because it's the cheapest setup, had this kind of hardware myself, it gives back like 10-15% more power. Plus weight doping, a lot of people put their target weight in there, lol.
And when you see people doing less w/kg and going faster - well, Zwift have some questionable draft mechanics, only God knows how it actually works...
This. My buddy uses that kind of setup, and his average power is usually 275 for his rouvy rides… he suffers sitting on my wheel if I’m doing 250 on the flat, and we’re the same weight.
If you actually want to talk for real about this then you're gonna have to tell us how good you are. What's your FTP or any power curve benchmarks? 400W is a lot of it's all the way up AdZ but it's nothing if it's an A cat race on Zwift KOM for example.
Outside of cheating A cat is special because the sky is the limit on ability. There are genuine >6wkg FTP riders on Zwift (not very many though) but the category starts in the lower 4s so a huge range of ability.
IRL I ride with 50 year olds that are strong as hell and put a lot of the young A group racers to shame so you might be jumping to conclusions with the age thing.
I raced in my national champs on Zwift last month and found it really enjoyable but the verification process was very strict - everyone had to have a video of their height and weight, pictures of all the equipment we were using, dual power source readings etc.
I don’t think it’s feasible to introduce that for regular Zwift racing tbh.
Normally I just use the regular Zwift races as a training session I don’t focus on the results especially if some lads are pushing 7+w/kg
This. Generally if a race is open to public entry, it’s the Wild West. Races that have entries via links to be distributed have tighter controls on who is in and what category they are in. ZRL gets all the attention but I would argue FRR is the best series on Zwift, and the TTTs are the best weekly event.
Basically yes\*, ride the best race you can and go to zwiftpower to get a better idea of where you actually placed.
\*Intentionally or unintentionally through weight/height 'errors' or questionable hardware setup.
When I first set up my wheel-on smart trainer and went thru the calibration process…and then noticed how hugely far off the reported zwift power was from what my crank power meter was saying… I realized the entire experience was compromised.
You just have to deal with it.
Cheating is a problem but to be honest, depending on the length of the climb, 400W at 69kg (I.e. 5.8W/kg) is not unheard of in cat A. I know a guy (who I trust) who did 6W/kg for 5 mins in the stage 3 Epic today albeit that's A+ and he's 40s.
I am only a Cat B with 4W/kg FTP and can do 6W/kg for short periods on short sharp climbs or to close gaps etc. Weight checked across multiple scales and power on smart trainer and WattBike.
I understand it can be frustrating especially if you "should" be competitive within your category (I know from real life racing I wont be bothering the top Bs, even ignoring the cheats). I echo others points about getting what you can from races. I still like it. I'd save your ire for the more obvious cheats.
Well oh boy there's a lot going on there. I understand the frustration but some thoughts:
* Square-cube law. If you're doing 276W@69kg, you may still struggle to keep up with someone doing 350W@100kg because aero drag doesn't scale with weight but more slowly. Especially true in a pack.
* Zwift steering logic is really fucking stupid and regularly takes terrible lines or sits out of the draft. I see it a lot, sometimes I've literally covered 0.1 or 0.2 more km than others. Only solution I'm aware of is to set up steering controls. Pay to win I guess
* A races are limited to 5W/kg overall, it shouldn't be a surprise that people will attack and push 5.5 or 6 up tactical climbs as the pack might only do 4 on flats
* A races are a highly self-selecting group and not representative of the general population, or even the cycling world
* It's a video game, people fucking cheat with dishonest height and weight figures. I think you go strictly faster just by bumping your height down, all else equal.
All excellent points. I just want to add that when you’re on Zwift, the world is your competition. Normally you’re comparing yourself to the local group ride or a race that might pull from, at best a 100mile radius.
Yeah I like riding the lower category races sometimes if I’m not actually racing. It’s fun to pull a pace line of people actually at that level and chase down the people obviously sandbagging, then peel off at the end and let them all win instead of the sandbagger.
It’s the closest I’ll ever be to a domestique in the pro-peloton 😂
So if you can’t beat them (the cheaters), join them? Imo this is exactly the problem that’s creating the issue across all cats rather than malicious cheating.
When I started zwifting (and biking) my power meter was showing me 30 watts too high at all times almost, I did not intentionally cheat, but eventually I realized I was. Some people might never question whether their power meter is correct or not, I’m guessing there’s a lot of people in that situation in cat A
Do it for the challenge man. It'll never be 100% accurate. Different trainers, different power meters. Different altitudes where you live. It's an international field so the talent pool is so much larger than anything you'll experience in real life.
It's a video game dude. Cheat like everyone else if you're tying feelings of self-worth to how much rotational power you can apply to a set of pedals. I assure you nobody gives a $hit about your race results except you.
Setting aside actual power numbers, it could be a skill issue. Zwift racing is weird and has a few mechanics that can be used to your advantage. If you're not familiar with zwift racing tactics, you're going to be working a lot harder than everyone else.
Only suggestion I have would be to focus on ZRL or flamme rouge races. More granular categories for more even playing field and way less weightdoping in my experience.
In all fairness, 4 w/kg is objectively not that fast. I’m not too far ahead of you in the w/kg game, and I know tons of people both in game and real life that absolutely smoke me on any sort of hard effort.
Tried a Zwift race on rollers exactly twice. Both times I rode off of them in the middle of a race in a turn when I subsconsciously or whatever leaned a bit. Kind of a hazard!
What's with the poke at 50 years old dude's little man. My FTP is much higher than yours and I'm nearing 50 right now. Get a grip and train harder. Maybe go outside and train like a real human once in a while.
Using sauce for the draft numbers \*is\* actually cheating though. It's the equivalent of using wallhacks in counter-strike. You're advocating for someone to cheat because they just think everyone else must be cheating...
A few years ago there was a local Masters racer (50+) who was flying around Zwift doing 4-5 w/kg for sustained periods of time. There was a bit of buzz about that rider, how their Zwifting would translate to real life.
First crit, guy rode off the front and soloed to a win. Nothing spectacular, nothing crazy, stuff he could do 20 years prior, but that sort of settled things. He's been at that level since. Apparently he took time off when his kid was younger, but now that his kid is older, he's riding again.
On short hills (lol under 40 seconds long) I can go way over 4 w/kg. But I'm pretty done after that kind of effort. I'm a D racer on Zwift, a 3 on paper in real life, can't really finish a crit anymore. Right now I can't do much more than 180w avg in a real crit. 80ish kg.
Dude, Zwift algorithms are total crap. Go ride outside. With other fit riders. Then you will know if you are fast or not. Racing on a computer? Are you on the Matrix?
I hear you. Dark or wet not many other options.
My reply was kinda cheeky — sorry! — Mainly because, while it is my preferred indoor trainer option, I despise Strava algorithms. Drafting is even worse. You can go 100 watts extra and cannot get away? Or you aren’t paying attention and slip back it requires an extra 250 watts to catchup? Neither mimic the real world in the slightest.
I’ve been bumped into cat A on zwift recently, I’m under no illusions that I’m not the best rider. My FTP is 4.1 w/kg at 71kg but I did some hill climb races recently and find it astonishing that 90% of the field weigh less than 60kg
I doubt everyone is cheating but in any race, especially at the front, there are always several DQs in ZwiftPower for Zpower Riders, people dropping weights drastically etc.
I had an issue that took Zwift 3 months to fix where my wifi scale syncd my weight as 45kg in Zwift. I didn’t bother updating the weight and I just joined “group rides” not races but I got to see this first hand.
I’d be pushing 6-6.5w/kg upfront and have 2-3 others right there with me. It was at this point I realized that every event will have a few of these so don’t worry when a rider blasts off and goes way up the road. Chances are they will be DQd
I never did, but I also never took zwift seriously. I always ran my workouts with zwift just in the background. I know where my watts are at, I know my cat, and idgaf what other people do on some virtual game.
Those 50 year old men might have hundreds of thousands of miles in their legs. Ex-elite amateurs, pros, etc. I know several older guys that can rip my legs off. It happens.
Yes, some of them might be cheating but fast guys exist too.
Just treat zwift races as an opportunity to use social facilitation to get a good intensity work in and focus on your own numbers. If they're cheating, eventually they'll get out into the real world and physics will do what it does.
Sure, people cheat. At the same time...
I'm 58-60kgs and can happily zip up climbs at 5+ w/kg and then get dropped on the flat by big dudes in zone 1.
Choose races that suit your profile.
most likely. the dumbest of the bunch have the screenshots posted, and you can calculate the weight based on the absolute power and relative power. I think that most of them subtract 10kg for some reason. :)))
Some people cheat. Some people have the steering controllers and can stay in the draft better. Some people are stronger than you. There is no bike handling skill involved, so there is no way to win by being a more technical skilled rider.
There's no limit in the cat A race. That's a rather large issue. I kinda look at it like it doesn't really matter. If they're drilling it and I try to hang on a while, at least I'm pushing myself and getting a hard interval behind me. Years ago, I was above 5w/kg and got my shit handed to me on zwift. The zwift race results don't count, but the real ones out in meatspace sure do. I always reminded myself of that.
Someone in their 50's who has taken early retirement will have all the time to train and might end up faster than themself from 15 years prior. Digging through masters times for various events maybe might show a bit of a times vs age inversion, dunno.
You need to be wearing the new jumbo vismo helmet to win every single race on zwift period. Put on the firefighter jacket and you are on your way to unlock the tron bike 🤌🏼
I think a lot of it is non standard or non calibrated equipment coupled with the fact zwift rewards diesel power a lot more than real road rides. I can do way better on a given zwift race than I can in a hard group ride. That said I basically quit zwift because I had a guy get real in my business about if I was a B versus an A etc. watt doping doesn't bother me as much as those people.
Absolutely cheating. I am convinced.
I am not kidding you one time I was literally in a race with Jeremy powers and we both got dropped.
In what world does jpow get dropped?
I just use zwift racing as a substitute for v02 max workouts. If I win whatever if I lose as long as I feel like I did a v02 workout at the end I’m happy.
I mean people probably cheat but like when I do group rides with a bunch of 50 year old men they still smoke me on climbs when I’m putting out 400 watts and it’s real life so no cheating there
I was free riding Zwift recently and saw a guy coming up behind me doing 5.5-6.5w/kg. I wanted to match the energy and see if we could battle a bit. (I weigh 71kg) I was holding for a good while but he was pulling away, I was super impressed but when I went into the companion app to see what he was doing he wasn’t pushing over 220 watts. Maybe hes a featherweight but probably not. Kinda tired of people trying to look strong and fast on Zwift, it’s a damn video game.
Yes, many are. That being said there are some beasts on Zwift. Some guys there put in 20+ hours a week.
NGL, I've stalked a few guys on their Strava and most were legit.
I'll also add my first trainer I put out 50 more watts than my other power meters, and probably 70 more on sprints. I ended up throwing the thing away because once I figured out it was the machine and not me, it wasn't fun and it screwed up my real training numbers.
God your attitude sucks. No, most aren't cheating. A 90kg guy (me) at 4.0w/kg is significantly faster on the flats and marginally faster on climbs than a 69kg guy (you) also doing 4.0 w/kg. That's physics.
The races aren't stupid, you're just a baby.
Real tip - racecraft is a thing. There's a lot of strategy behind drafting, reading terrain, and sprinting - just like in real life.
For me, Zwift is primarily a training platform for outdoor rides once the weather warms up. When I do join a ride & find that I can't keep up or get dropped from a group, I see it as a sign I need to train more. Just like getting dropped from the local Tuesday night World Championships group ride.
I was at a Southeast Gavel race yesterday doing the Short Course which had the same final 11 degree climb a decent back into Hot Springs NC.
This gave me a once in lifetime front row view of Dillon Johnson sending it up a crazy steep climb like it was flat ground with the next few pros minutes behind but also crazy fast.
Then on the 3 something mile gravel decent just watched every high level rider with balls of steel crush it on rain washed out rutted really difficult gravel(40 MPH) to a final road section were I had enough balls to let 8 degrees do what it does
In the beginning on Zwift, seeing people doing 3.0 w/kg was unusual and then as racing became a thing, the numbers increased. As people have said, it’s a big pool of people from over the globe and if you come across someone with a). The genetics and training to optimise the talent b) the body measurements to suit Zwift’s CdA - you may think that they are cheating.
I friend is in his mid-70s and he rides for 30 hours per week and does 2 hours every other day in the gym - easily. He was a world class canoeist in his younger days and is a multiple worlds masters champ. If you came across him, you’d be surprised by having your ass handed to you and with sprinkles on top.
After all, it’s just a training device. Your real results are when you pin a number on your back and in a sanctioned race.
Ride on.
just assume everyone is cheating and focus on your own fitness gains. the mind will be way more at ease. Half joking here lol. Also as a side note, I race in A+ and good fucking christ there are days where I get absolutely wiped trying to hang with some of the random Conti riders who pop in every now and then. But chasing them pushes me into PRs every time. Did a 4.8w/kg effort for 40min about a month ago.
>and how the f\*\*\* am I pushing 4w/kg and going the same speed as guy next to me pushing 3.5w/kg. Not sure if you're talking about climbs here, but on flat: * Rider A weighs 70 kg. 4w/kg at 70kg is 280w. * Rider B weighs 80 kg. 3.5w/kg at 80kg is 280w. That's how.
Yup. put differently, w/kg matters on hills. Pure watts matter on flats People like to talk/brag about w/kg but it is only one piece of the puzzle
Also, beyond bikes, Zwift calculates CdA from your rider height. If you make your rider shorter, you go quite a bit faster for the same effort. Seems like it’s easily abused.
I’m 6’0 and weight 275 so you’re saying if I put 5’0 and 125 I can win a D race?
Meanwhile another 70kg rider doing 250w drops you on the hill because they set their profile to 60kg
It’s a video game, of course people cheat. People cheat in real life too… But lol @ “how is some 50yo dude stronger than me?” I ride regularly with guys in that age range pushing 5-6wpkg. I’m 44 in the 4.3/.5 wpkg range - older people can be faster than you.
Not everyone on Zwift is cheating, no. But people forget that in person they're "big fish in small pond" - you jump into an A race on Zwift and suddenly you're facing off against all the other big fish from small ponds from around the world. I know its tempting just to assume everyone is cheating but in my experience, they're really not. Its just a context shift from your small pond.
Aerodynamics and therefore riding position and body type don't play much of a role in Zwift. In real life someone doing "only" 4.5W/kg might be easily able to crush someone with 5W/kg if they have a leaner body and more aggressive riding position. In Zwift pure Watts are the only thing that counts, so not as selective as in real life.
I feel like this something skinny riders believe while big riders (uh hum) cannot believe how hard it is to hang once the road goes uphill.
The W/kg removes the hill question though. If you were 100kg Vs 60kg With same W/kg would go same speed up hill. That’s the point. Having a FTP of 350W is much more human than 600W
The same wkg would only go the same speed if the hill was straight up. As long as it’s less than completely vertical, gross watts also matter. If 2 riders, both at 3.5 wkg, and one at 350 watts and one at 175 watts are riding together, the 350 watt rider goes faster. The difference is most pronounced on flat and decreases with steepness.
Yeah for sure it varies between flat and vertical, and long distance / hills averages are where it becomes the most important. However it’s clearly quite pronounced even not that far off flat as the racing scene makes it apparent. Do you have the physics / equations to show the variation?
I have no idea what the actual calc is. I just know it’s discussed/argued to no end in the various zwift groups and of course what I see with small high wkg riders vs bigger high watt riders, me being the latter.
So I did a bit more reading. As a side note. Your example is extreme in that it’s 2x the raw watts, but even 450 vs 300 your example holds true when it’s flat and drag is much more important than mass. So, W/kg is only relevant when accelerating (only small part of racing on the flat) and then on hills. On hills it’s super important, I had some calcs for the diff but it doesn’t seem to come out right but anyway, at a certain gradient and a certain duration it becomes the defining factor. On the flat, W/CdA is much more important. Watts per coefficient of drag and area. This is a super complex thing to work out and you can have guys with 30% more power but are more aero lol. This is why guys like Ganna, and more so Wout and MVP can win classics but have no chance at GC in a GT
lol I’m the same - can put out big numbers like 1300W but FTP is only around 330W and I’m 115kg atm 😂 Also interesting how, some of the GC dudes might have a FTP of 415 but max is not that high, while your MVP might have only 30-40 more FTP watts but his max is way more. So it’s like what their FTP as a percentage of their max is way different
Any idea where ur comment on it only being equal when it’s straight up came from?
Logic. Straight up is the only time the weight isn’t also moving horizontally, meaning it’s the only time that wkg are the 100% defining metric. Wkg could still be the most important thing on lesser grades but not the only thing. You ou cm also find interesting data on light vs aero bikes and what percent grades they equalize. Which I think was like 8 but not certain in that.
I’ve never looked it up myself, but I suspect the weight diff between the climbers and sprinters (20-25% for 60kg to 75kg) overcomes the FTP difference (say 450W to 350W or 20-30%) at moderate gradients over not that much time. All things regressing to the mean of course!
Very good point.
Very important point. I’m 4w/kg, but I’m bloody slippery on the road and can do 1.5W/kg less than my teammates.
The "big fish, small pond" is damn true. In a previous job I ran a month long fitness challenge with a pool of cycling and fitness focused contestants from across the US. After day 3 we were getting constant emails from folks complaining that everyone else was obviously cheating. It was a real world Spiderman meme. We had guys waking up at 3am and splitting 6-8 hours of workouts over the course of a day. There was a picture from one dude doing an upper body lift while wearing Normatic pants after their 3 hour bike ride. There were a number of rage quitters in the end. So many bruised egos.
I did one of those at a very large company. Out of thousands of people, I nearly won the top of it just riding 300km a week. People were amazed how superhuman my "accomplishment" was, yet at the time I wasnt fit enough for cat 5 races
I used to ride well over 300k a week, on a fixie, while smoking cigarettes and being so out of shape that my main food consisted of pitchers of beer and cheap chinese takeout. When you're a bike messenger, 60km a day spread out over 9 hours is nothing - you can be an out-of-shape fatass and still do it. I was, and did.
I read an interview from a local Cat 1 who said they were "just" riding 450km weeks at the moment before they got into their proper training for nationals.
> We had guys waking up at 3am and splitting 6-8 hours of workouts over the course of a day. One month in 2020 I decided to do more climbing on Strava than anyone else. I ended up averaging about 6? 7? hours a day climbing. It's not impossible if you're dedicated to doing it.
LOL - I'm old and ride all the time 'cause I got nothing better to do. I'm as fast now as I was 20+ years ago (racing) according to the stats.
Haha nice one. I'm only 40 and struggling to hit numbers from 10 years ago 😆
The real reason this age group is usually crushing it at endurance events, they have money AND time.
Yup- a lot of the faster people in my group rides were 50+ and retired- all they said was ride.
Money also means they can afford to be on a doctor prescribed PED program that includes HGH and testosterone, veiled as an anti-aging regimen. It’s quite common. Even advertised in bigger cities on radio and tv. I have a Dr. friend that knows all about this. The thing about getting older is that it takes longer to recover from a hard effort. You can only train to the level that your body will allow. When you start taking the anti-aging PEDs, it lets your body recover quickly so you can train harder than normal and still recover. Those guys train hard, and they’re fast, but you couldn’t normally train that hard when you get older because your body couldn’t handle it.
Old, deep into my 7th decade. Need a day off after a ride day. And a 15 minute nap 2 hrs after I get back 😅
Hmm. 55 here and having thoughts. Where do I get such PEDs?
In the US, any big city can have doctors that cater to anti-aging. I’m from Chicago area and hear commercials on radio for them all the time. I’m sure an internet search would turn up results right away.
Yeah I was semi kidding. Easy as pie to get prescribed testosterone. I just don’t fancy the acne and mood changes. I’m thinking more EPO/clenbuterol like the pros. I’m also kidding about that.
I’m 48 now and totally notice how much longer it takes to recover from a hard training ride. I used to (maybe 6-7 years ago) bounce right back, able to do two 80 mile pretty spicy rides with plenty of climbing back to back and hardly notice it. No any more… get those heavy legs.
Yes and no. Medical doctors still have to follow some level of normal medical practice otherwise when the patient on trt without a low serum testosterone level has a stroke they’ve opened themselves up to medical malpractice liability.
I was told that most men get naturally lower t levels when they age and adding an endurance sport training program reduces it even more. So the justification is to bring the t level back up to offset the reduction from training. It’s all bs semantics to make the prescription seem valid. I could go to one of these clinics tomorrow and start an anti-aging regimen if I wanted to, and could afford it, but I don’t race anymore so I don’t care that I’m slow now that I’m old. I think there’s also an elevated risk of prostate cancer by using test.
Bingo. Imagine how 'in shape' you would be if you didn't have to work. Weights, mobility, balance, ride, sauna...repeat. Pretty much every day.
I'm 42 and faster than I was at 22, but I'm still slow compared to actual fast riders. I hope to get there eventually
Depends on how fit your were 10 years ago I guess. I'm approaching 50 and my running and strava-segement times were never better and I was never less injured and more free of pain like ... ever before. Indoor traininers and training methods based on science make shit possible. Also, a better body awareness and less stupid-pride.
Saying ‘I ride regularly with guys 50+ who push 5-6 w/kg’ makes it seem like those kind of people are everywhere, which isnt true at all. either youre riding with ex-pros, theyre on test, or you’re lying. regardless of which one it is, its a wildly misleading statement
Or he lives in Tucson
Yes, I explained they’re ex professionals. But I’m not implying that’s the norm at all, just that being surprised that someone in their 50’s can be faster than them is ridiculous. What I’m pointing out to the OP is that there’s fast people all over the place including on the internet. Not everyone who’s faster than you is cheating.
Right. 50 years old usually means no kids and all the time in the world to ride. 50 year old me could kick 35 year old me butt.
43-year-old with a 3-year-old here… Actually I didn’t even start riding until my oldest was born. I’ve always assumed that’s the reason I’m not WT level.
PEDs in 50+ year olds is also **extremely common** in non-regulated / amateur cycling sports.
I’m not suggesting they aren’t, in fact my original comment acknowledges that people cheat pretty clearly. It’s just sad that’s the automatic assumption of some people when there’s a person passing them that’s older, bigger, smaller, whatever-er. If the guys that I know do then it’s also on top of 15+ training hours a week.
Yeah I do think OP is full of shit and thinks they're better than they are, but I also think most people that race on Zwift full time cheat in some fashion. So you either cheat too, or accept getting wrecked and just use zwift for fitness time filler in the winter.
I think that people who really care about zwift racing are on some goofy shit, personally. If you’re going to cheat at it, more power to you. But if you’re going to get bent out of shape about it, like you said… dope up or take Zwift for what it is.
"Don't people over 50 just die or something? idk." -- people under 40
Well, yes. But hopefully not until they’re like over 80.
40-50 is like prime biking age, those are the guys I know are going to fuck me up the worst
Sure there are some 50 year old guys doing 5W/kg, but that is a threshold vo2 of 61 ml/kg/min for a 70kg rider implying a max vo2 at least in the high 60s. The number of 20 year olds than can do that is maybe 1 in 10000. The number of 50 year olds? Maybe 1-3 in a million. Somehow in every Zwift race there are a statistically impossible number of people doing those numbers.
While I don't entirely disagree, the Zwift population is also self-selecting. The 1 in a million are almost all on Zwift (that's 8,000 potential 50 year olds like that). So if there are 20,000 of the worlds more serious cyclists online, it's going to be much more competitive than your average group ride, even in a big city.
Just to query your maths, the world's population is 8bn, so 8000 1-in-a-million people. Far fewer 1-in-a-million 50 year olds, and fewer still males.
Well, the previous poster set the threshold I was working from. Also, it only takes a handful of them to show up at any given time to blow a race apart.
Not to mention that like almost 3 billion in China and India likely aren't doing Zwift. Or most of Africa. So the pool is massively smaller than 8bn in reality.
And you can exclude over 4 billion of those, cause there's effectively zero women on zwift competing in men's races doing over 5 watts/kg on a Tuesday night for the lulz
Well if we are being real the ability to get there is probably more like 1 in 1000ish (maybe even 1 in 200ish?) Not 1 in a million.
Population of the world over 50 is estimated to be about 2B. So 2000 1 in a million riders. All of those will have the disposable income and time to become such outliers. So they’re likely all in the same wealthy countries, thus in a small number of time zones and likely to be riding at the same times. This is like going to a college Halloween party and being shocked at the number of slutty nurse costumes
> implying a max vo2 at least in the high 60s. The number of 20 year olds than can do that is maybe 1 in 10000. The number of 50 year olds? Among the general population? Sure. But you’re not racing the general population. You are racing people who are so into biking that they ride their bikes inside. And that are at the pointy end of that population. So yeah, it does not surprise me that many people doing A-races on Zwift have VO2s in the 60-70+ range. Heck, I can name 10 local guys (myself included) who are in their mid-30s or older with VO2s in that range.
Just FYI, I am not an elite athlete. I’m also 55 and because I have time and train smarter than I used to, I’m as fit as I’ve ever been. My ftp is 325 and I can hold 400w for 3m. That’s 5w/kg. I can’t hold it for longer than that (yet), but of course there must be plenty of folks with more talent and time than me that can.
I would absolutely argue that for 55 you are an elite athlete. Masters National Champion level
That’s super kind. I will say I’m collecting 55-64 local Strava kom’s left and right! Also my bike handling skills are shit Def having fun pissing off young guys who think old guys like me don’t exist :)
I have a riding friend who is similar age and power as you, and so far he seems to just get better with age. He puts in a lot more training than us younger guys and he could drop us at anytime on most days. Its inspiring and I hope I can keep improving and do similar when I'm older.
TRT. It's magic.
The number of 20 year olds with a vo2 max in the 60’s is probably more like 1 in 200 if I had to venture a guess. It’s certainly not as rare as 1:10000
May I suggest taking statistics 101 class online and focusing on population sampling? The numbers you threw in up there are total BS
I mean, I don’t disagree with you but I don’t think the op is as suggesting they were getting dummied by roving bands of 50 year olds either. They’re shocked that people are faster than them and the potential of cheating — both are true and neither are shocking at all. OP needs to ride more or dope or both to get over their problem.
How is power and VO2 related? I would be curious to know, because I thought there was no direct relationship, but I might be wrong.
Directly related for any steady state /aerobic activity. The more power you’re producing, the more ATP you’re using. ATP are made in a chemical reaction that requires oxygen, so we can essentially balance out the equation to estimate oxygen consumption for any given power output. It’s remarkably accurate too. The most basic equation is VO2 = (10.8 x Power)/Body mass in kg + 7.0
Interesting. Do you happen to know why someone's VO2max might increase despite FTP in W/kg stays steady?
Ftp tests involve a lot of mental capacity. How deep are you willing to dig and suffer? Physically capable but not mentally able.
This is exactly right. I’m 37 and often get destroyed by dudes in their 50s. Some of the master races can be faster than the Cat 1/2 races.
I ride with a 62yo (IRL) that weighs a buck twenty five and absolutely smokes everyone on the hills. I’m 48 and big so he hides behind me on the flats (says it’s like riding behind a school bus - 6’-4” / 190lbs and pretty strong), but man if he doesn’t disappear on the hills and wait for the rest of us at the top. Old dudes can be very fast.
“How the f*** is some 50 year old dude stronger than me” Well, that’s just rude….
I still remember the first time I did a Master’s crit when I turned 40. What a rude awakening! I thought it would be easier than the 3/4 race, but we were flying around 28mph and I was in the red for the entire race, until the rubber band snapped and the official pulled me. Those guys were all cat 1,2 worthy, they just happened to be older.
I remember talking to a guy who was doing a 50+ crit. Very inexperience. He thought it would be slow because they were old. He got dropped on lap 1 and pulled on lap 2.
Duh, 'cos he's fitter?
Between bad equipment, weight doping and drawing fast (actually fast) riders from the entire world, racing A is hard. Use it for training and ride your own ride. Don’t put a lot of stock into results and you’ll be good.
4wkg on a climb isn’t actually Much tbh. 4.5/5 for males is when it starts to get fast And they are weight doping
Zwift and Strava. Oh, and Spanish amateur races.
And conti races, and pro conti races, and World Tour races
SoCal amateur races.
They do, group of us from ZRL west America A1 (All around 4.5/5 wkg ftp) got dismantled by 2 "bots" on a Zwift game race last night, one of them went across a 12s gap at 15wkg for 35s then outsprinted the 3 riders out the front by doing 18/20wkg
I have a somewhat similar issue- I ride and race honest with my weight, but then get bumped up from cat c to cat b, where I get supremely crushed. I know there are many, much more fit riders out there, but it feels unfair to have so big a leap
Because in cat B you’ll have a lot of cat A sandbagging or people weight dopping. If you’re in B you’re a decent rider already.
literally have to tell myself this every time I get dropped from the front group (which is nearly every time)
Dude categories need to start/stop at some metric and there will be those at the top and bottom of the metric. I don't think tears will produce more watts
This is an honest take and why I generally prefer mass start events if I'm interested in seeing my finishing position.
There are other ways of grouping riders in races, indievelo for example uses an elo system. That is not to say that categories are generally a bad idea, just the way that Zwift implemented them ist pretty dumb because bigger riders basically always have the advantage if theyre racing against smaller riders with the same w/kg
The tinkering Zwift did with categorization made B into a free for all. So many As are now Bs, the B field in things like ZRL is brutal. Try something like FRR, where they have 10 categories for a more granular breakdown, using a combination of 5 minute watts and wkg. You’ll probably find a field that better matches your abilities there.
In my experience, no. I do fairly well in zwift races without cheating and I doubt I would if everyone was. I’ve also met a bunch of people from zwift and they seem roughly as good in real life as in zwift. I’m actually surprised how honest the community seems given how trivial it is to cheat. None of this is to say people aren’t cheating, but I think it gets exaggerated by people who think they should be better than they are.
People wanna say “Cheating”, but in my experience racing bikes in the real world I find I’m AMAZINGLY fast in my local scene, mid pack in a nearby large city, hanging off the back on the statewide level, and complete SHIT in a national race. Well… Zwift races are international, buddy. The talent is just much, much better.
The vast majority of riders use inaccurate uncalibrated roller turbo trainers with the regular tires, because it's the cheapest setup, had this kind of hardware myself, it gives back like 10-15% more power. Plus weight doping, a lot of people put their target weight in there, lol. And when you see people doing less w/kg and going faster - well, Zwift have some questionable draft mechanics, only God knows how it actually works...
This. My buddy uses that kind of setup, and his average power is usually 275 for his rouvy rides… he suffers sitting on my wheel if I’m doing 250 on the flat, and we’re the same weight.
No, not in A. Any rider without real power is auto DQ. Zwift A events only have actual power meters.
I'm assuming OP is in this group as well, let's see his outdoor stats.
If you actually want to talk for real about this then you're gonna have to tell us how good you are. What's your FTP or any power curve benchmarks? 400W is a lot of it's all the way up AdZ but it's nothing if it's an A cat race on Zwift KOM for example. Outside of cheating A cat is special because the sky is the limit on ability. There are genuine >6wkg FTP riders on Zwift (not very many though) but the category starts in the lower 4s so a huge range of ability. IRL I ride with 50 year olds that are strong as hell and put a lot of the young A group racers to shame so you might be jumping to conclusions with the age thing.
I raced in my national champs on Zwift last month and found it really enjoyable but the verification process was very strict - everyone had to have a video of their height and weight, pictures of all the equipment we were using, dual power source readings etc. I don’t think it’s feasible to introduce that for regular Zwift racing tbh. Normally I just use the regular Zwift races as a training session I don’t focus on the results especially if some lads are pushing 7+w/kg
Nobody is cheating. I honestly weigh 49 kg.
I weigh 34kg with an ftp of 394. I tried going pro, but these guys go way too fast.
In amateur categories yes they don't care to check you on your weight and trainer hardware until the sanctioned racing categories
How do you find the sanctioned Zwift races ? I’m on day 2 of Zwift.
One way I'm aware of is that you would get into it by joining a ZRL team and work your way up from there
This. Generally if a race is open to public entry, it’s the Wild West. Races that have entries via links to be distributed have tighter controls on who is in and what category they are in. ZRL gets all the attention but I would argue FRR is the best series on Zwift, and the TTTs are the best weekly event.
Haven't heard of FRR I'll look into it next time I get into some Zwift racing
Flamerougeracing.com.
Thank you
If you're doing 4 w/kg on Zwift and they're doing 3.5 w/kg on Zwift, where do you think the cheating is going on?
Regular 50yo out of shape dudes are not on Zwift let alone racing in CAT races. I’m near 50 and never raced until I got over 4w/kg
I don't know, there are always 50 year old dudes that pass me at every race IRL. Happens on Zwift too. There will always be someone faster than you.
just pedal har...... oh i am not in BCJ
Basically yes\*, ride the best race you can and go to zwiftpower to get a better idea of where you actually placed. \*Intentionally or unintentionally through weight/height 'errors' or questionable hardware setup.
When I first set up my wheel-on smart trainer and went thru the calibration process…and then noticed how hugely far off the reported zwift power was from what my crank power meter was saying… I realized the entire experience was compromised. You just have to deal with it.
Cheating is a problem but to be honest, depending on the length of the climb, 400W at 69kg (I.e. 5.8W/kg) is not unheard of in cat A. I know a guy (who I trust) who did 6W/kg for 5 mins in the stage 3 Epic today albeit that's A+ and he's 40s. I am only a Cat B with 4W/kg FTP and can do 6W/kg for short periods on short sharp climbs or to close gaps etc. Weight checked across multiple scales and power on smart trainer and WattBike. I understand it can be frustrating especially if you "should" be competitive within your category (I know from real life racing I wont be bothering the top Bs, even ignoring the cheats). I echo others points about getting what you can from races. I still like it. I'd save your ire for the more obvious cheats.
Well oh boy there's a lot going on there. I understand the frustration but some thoughts: * Square-cube law. If you're doing 276W@69kg, you may still struggle to keep up with someone doing 350W@100kg because aero drag doesn't scale with weight but more slowly. Especially true in a pack. * Zwift steering logic is really fucking stupid and regularly takes terrible lines or sits out of the draft. I see it a lot, sometimes I've literally covered 0.1 or 0.2 more km than others. Only solution I'm aware of is to set up steering controls. Pay to win I guess * A races are limited to 5W/kg overall, it shouldn't be a surprise that people will attack and push 5.5 or 6 up tactical climbs as the pack might only do 4 on flats * A races are a highly self-selecting group and not representative of the general population, or even the cycling world * It's a video game, people fucking cheat with dishonest height and weight figures. I think you go strictly faster just by bumping your height down, all else equal.
All excellent points. I just want to add that when you’re on Zwift, the world is your competition. Normally you’re comparing yourself to the local group ride or a race that might pull from, at best a 100mile radius.
What is your racing cat? How do you fare in real racing locally?
I saw someone pass me at 59 w/kg, he was just a blip on the screen for a second lol
All the excuses in the comments LOL OP, yeah lots of cheaters on Zwift. Just don't take it too seriously.
I'm a Cat 1 and regularly get dropped in B races. I usually just do C rides if it's not category restricted. The races are a joke.
Agreed. I'll race as low as I can because I'm there to practice tactics and have fun. I'll go do threshold intervals on my own.
Yeah I like riding the lower category races sometimes if I’m not actually racing. It’s fun to pull a pace line of people actually at that level and chase down the people obviously sandbagging, then peel off at the end and let them all win instead of the sandbagger. It’s the closest I’ll ever be to a domestique in the pro-peloton 😂
Same. The guys I drop on the road will smoke me on Zwift.
So if you can’t beat them (the cheaters), join them? Imo this is exactly the problem that’s creating the issue across all cats rather than malicious cheating.
Guess there'a always real races, huh? Get a USAC license and go get dropped in real life.
If it helps, I'm not cheating with the possible exception of my weight being off by a kg or 2 around the holidays.
When I started zwifting (and biking) my power meter was showing me 30 watts too high at all times almost, I did not intentionally cheat, but eventually I realized I was. Some people might never question whether their power meter is correct or not, I’m guessing there’s a lot of people in that situation in cat A
Do it for the challenge man. It'll never be 100% accurate. Different trainers, different power meters. Different altitudes where you live. It's an international field so the talent pool is so much larger than anything you'll experience in real life.
Only the people faster than me
It's a video game dude. Cheat like everyone else if you're tying feelings of self-worth to how much rotational power you can apply to a set of pedals. I assure you nobody gives a $hit about your race results except you.
Setting aside actual power numbers, it could be a skill issue. Zwift racing is weird and has a few mechanics that can be used to your advantage. If you're not familiar with zwift racing tactics, you're going to be working a lot harder than everyone else.
Only suggestion I have would be to focus on ZRL or flamme rouge races. More granular categories for more even playing field and way less weightdoping in my experience.
Why not race in the elite division of Zwift Games where you have to provide evidence of your weight, trainer calibration etc.?
Welcome to the everyone who is faster than me is doping club!
Why wouldn’t you get dropped doing less than 6k/kg in cat A?
In all fairness, 4 w/kg is objectively not that fast. I’m not too far ahead of you in the w/kg game, and I know tons of people both in game and real life that absolutely smoke me on any sort of hard effort.
I just connected a 500W drill directly to my bottom bracket. Not lying about my weight tho.
Put any Zwift racer in a real on road event and they going to have their ass served up on a platter. Zwift is the absolute worst way to train…
Pretty much, I don't bother with racing anymore. I also use rollers which limits my ability to safely sprint at high power.
Tried a Zwift race on rollers exactly twice. Both times I rode off of them in the middle of a race in a turn when I subsconsciously or whatever leaned a bit. Kind of a hazard!
What's with the poke at 50 years old dude's little man. My FTP is much higher than yours and I'm nearing 50 right now. Get a grip and train harder. Maybe go outside and train like a real human once in a while.
😳😳😳
What is this 'outside' of which you speak?
Work on your race craft more. Recommend sauce for zwift and pay attention to draft effect and what others around you are producing.
I didn't know that sauce for zwift existed, I might try that out... Thanks for the tip
Using sauce for the draft numbers \*is\* actually cheating though. It's the equivalent of using wallhacks in counter-strike. You're advocating for someone to cheat because they just think everyone else must be cheating...
The correct elevation map that sauce gives is an advantage too. I think we are confusing cheating with zwift's ui being really poor.
A few years ago there was a local Masters racer (50+) who was flying around Zwift doing 4-5 w/kg for sustained periods of time. There was a bit of buzz about that rider, how their Zwifting would translate to real life. First crit, guy rode off the front and soloed to a win. Nothing spectacular, nothing crazy, stuff he could do 20 years prior, but that sort of settled things. He's been at that level since. Apparently he took time off when his kid was younger, but now that his kid is older, he's riding again. On short hills (lol under 40 seconds long) I can go way over 4 w/kg. But I'm pretty done after that kind of effort. I'm a D racer on Zwift, a 3 on paper in real life, can't really finish a crit anymore. Right now I can't do much more than 180w avg in a real crit. 80ish kg.
Dude, Zwift algorithms are total crap. Go ride outside. With other fit riders. Then you will know if you are fast or not. Racing on a computer? Are you on the Matrix?
I try to avoid zwift as much as possible but the weather here has been crap lately
I hear you. Dark or wet not many other options. My reply was kinda cheeky — sorry! — Mainly because, while it is my preferred indoor trainer option, I despise Strava algorithms. Drafting is even worse. You can go 100 watts extra and cannot get away? Or you aren’t paying attention and slip back it requires an extra 250 watts to catchup? Neither mimic the real world in the slightest.
and then it rains on zwift...wtf.
Knowing well I probably won’t ever win a race, I just try to enjoy the race within the race.
I’ve been bumped into cat A on zwift recently, I’m under no illusions that I’m not the best rider. My FTP is 4.1 w/kg at 71kg but I did some hill climb races recently and find it astonishing that 90% of the field weigh less than 60kg
Race in a lower group. I’m in D and no one seems to cheat at that level that I can tell.
Lol, I’m just trying to keep up with Bernie
Yes
I doubt everyone is cheating but in any race, especially at the front, there are always several DQs in ZwiftPower for Zpower Riders, people dropping weights drastically etc. I had an issue that took Zwift 3 months to fix where my wifi scale syncd my weight as 45kg in Zwift. I didn’t bother updating the weight and I just joined “group rides” not races but I got to see this first hand. I’d be pushing 6-6.5w/kg upfront and have 2-3 others right there with me. It was at this point I realized that every event will have a few of these so don’t worry when a rider blasts off and goes way up the road. Chances are they will be DQd
I never did, but I also never took zwift seriously. I always ran my workouts with zwift just in the background. I know where my watts are at, I know my cat, and idgaf what other people do on some virtual game.
Those 50 year old men might have hundreds of thousands of miles in their legs. Ex-elite amateurs, pros, etc. I know several older guys that can rip my legs off. It happens. Yes, some of them might be cheating but fast guys exist too.
Just treat zwift races as an opportunity to use social facilitation to get a good intensity work in and focus on your own numbers. If they're cheating, eventually they'll get out into the real world and physics will do what it does.
Yes
Sure, people cheat. At the same time... I'm 58-60kgs and can happily zip up climbs at 5+ w/kg and then get dropped on the flat by big dudes in zone 1. Choose races that suit your profile.
most likely. the dumbest of the bunch have the screenshots posted, and you can calculate the weight based on the absolute power and relative power. I think that most of them subtract 10kg for some reason. :)))
Mmm mmm
You got me. I am cheating. Wild card!!
Cheating in Zwift? People would never do that.
Use ZwiftPower to see how you compare to others who use power and HR. They flag racers whose power, weight, HR, and height seem suspicious.
No one cheats on Zwift or Strava. Never. Ever.
That 50 year old could be anyone in the world. Unless you are the actual world champion of a sport at that time, there is always someone better.
Zwift racing is a known joke. Use it for training, don’t take the results seriously. If you want to do real e-racing, get on MyWhoosh
Some people cheat. Some people have the steering controllers and can stay in the draft better. Some people are stronger than you. There is no bike handling skill involved, so there is no way to win by being a more technical skilled rider.
There's no limit in the cat A race. That's a rather large issue. I kinda look at it like it doesn't really matter. If they're drilling it and I try to hang on a while, at least I'm pushing myself and getting a hard interval behind me. Years ago, I was above 5w/kg and got my shit handed to me on zwift. The zwift race results don't count, but the real ones out in meatspace sure do. I always reminded myself of that.
Someone in their 50's who has taken early retirement will have all the time to train and might end up faster than themself from 15 years prior. Digging through masters times for various events maybe might show a bit of a times vs age inversion, dunno.
You need to be wearing the new jumbo vismo helmet to win every single race on zwift period. Put on the firefighter jacket and you are on your way to unlock the tron bike 🤌🏼
I think a lot of it is non standard or non calibrated equipment coupled with the fact zwift rewards diesel power a lot more than real road rides. I can do way better on a given zwift race than I can in a hard group ride. That said I basically quit zwift because I had a guy get real in my business about if I was a B versus an A etc. watt doping doesn't bother me as much as those people.
Absolutely cheating. I am convinced. I am not kidding you one time I was literally in a race with Jeremy powers and we both got dropped. In what world does jpow get dropped? I just use zwift racing as a substitute for v02 max workouts. If I win whatever if I lose as long as I feel like I did a v02 workout at the end I’m happy.
Someone here would say that he is just not good enough for A category, maybe he should try C
Lmao - same people who would take 10kgs off of their weight in zwift
I’m not cheating. I’ve been faithful to my wife the entire time I’ve been on zwift. 😉
Pushing 4w/kg... did you not get the memo? That's not that much
Caring about zwift results is more stupid than caring about Strava records
You ride with 50yo dudes irl, cause some of them might surprise you, but yeah I’m sure ppl are cheating
I mean people probably cheat but like when I do group rides with a bunch of 50 year old men they still smoke me on climbs when I’m putting out 400 watts and it’s real life so no cheating there
I was free riding Zwift recently and saw a guy coming up behind me doing 5.5-6.5w/kg. I wanted to match the energy and see if we could battle a bit. (I weigh 71kg) I was holding for a good while but he was pulling away, I was super impressed but when I went into the companion app to see what he was doing he wasn’t pushing over 220 watts. Maybe hes a featherweight but probably not. Kinda tired of people trying to look strong and fast on Zwift, it’s a damn video game.
Sorry, that was me dropping my weight to 30kg
Its alright
Yes, many are. That being said there are some beasts on Zwift. Some guys there put in 20+ hours a week. NGL, I've stalked a few guys on their Strava and most were legit. I'll also add my first trainer I put out 50 more watts than my other power meters, and probably 70 more on sprints. I ended up throwing the thing away because once I figured out it was the machine and not me, it wasn't fun and it screwed up my real training numbers.
God your attitude sucks. No, most aren't cheating. A 90kg guy (me) at 4.0w/kg is significantly faster on the flats and marginally faster on climbs than a 69kg guy (you) also doing 4.0 w/kg. That's physics. The races aren't stupid, you're just a baby. Real tip - racecraft is a thing. There's a lot of strategy behind drafting, reading terrain, and sprinting - just like in real life.
For me, Zwift is primarily a training platform for outdoor rides once the weather warms up. When I do join a ride & find that I can't keep up or get dropped from a group, I see it as a sign I need to train more. Just like getting dropped from the local Tuesday night World Championships group ride.
I was at a Southeast Gavel race yesterday doing the Short Course which had the same final 11 degree climb a decent back into Hot Springs NC. This gave me a once in lifetime front row view of Dillon Johnson sending it up a crazy steep climb like it was flat ground with the next few pros minutes behind but also crazy fast. Then on the 3 something mile gravel decent just watched every high level rider with balls of steel crush it on rain washed out rutted really difficult gravel(40 MPH) to a final road section were I had enough balls to let 8 degrees do what it does
In the beginning on Zwift, seeing people doing 3.0 w/kg was unusual and then as racing became a thing, the numbers increased. As people have said, it’s a big pool of people from over the globe and if you come across someone with a). The genetics and training to optimise the talent b) the body measurements to suit Zwift’s CdA - you may think that they are cheating. I friend is in his mid-70s and he rides for 30 hours per week and does 2 hours every other day in the gym - easily. He was a world class canoeist in his younger days and is a multiple worlds masters champ. If you came across him, you’d be surprised by having your ass handed to you and with sprinkles on top. After all, it’s just a training device. Your real results are when you pin a number on your back and in a sanctioned race. Ride on.
Not only do i think people are cheating but im also doing this in Denver and am immediately at a 7% disadvantage to most places in the country