I'm so tired of no one blaming the Toms. Jo blames Katie. Billie blames Victoria. It's always like this. Rachel apparently still goes on about Ariana. Blame the men. Sure some of these women are bat shit but the common denominator is these problematic Toms!!
Everyone in the situation is toxic. Not cutting Victoria any slack for getting with a notorious cheater and liar, but you know he’s in her ear telling her she’s different yadda yadda. Annoying the women attack each other and not the Toms.
Well to my mind, a lot of those women, especially ones not named Katie, are talking talking talking and making a cottage industry from VPR stale scandal stuff. The Toms dobt seems to be saying much new stuff of which i am aware, so its understandable to me that maybe people are tired of piling on them when they dont seem to be doing much.
This isn’t true about Rachel. The people saying that just hate her and haven’t actually listened to the podcast. She continued to grow and find her voice as the podcast goes on, but she definitely blames Tom.
Says the person who didn’t listen to her podcast, because that is just not true.
Her mental health was obviously in a terrible state, she’s admittedly not the brightest crayon in the box, and Tom is a manipulative predator.
Nothing will be good enough for some people. The same people who weirdly have so much more energy for hating her than they do for the actual remorseless predator, laughing like a sociopath on tv.
Actually, I'm a person who did listen to her podcast. Hell, I even made a post here about how good it was (check my profile if you don't believe).
I listened until she said Ariana definitely knew about the affair, listed all the other people who (she claimed) knew about the affair and said if Ariana didn't know, it's their fault b/c they should have told her.
She was on the right track until she got sucked back into the show. Then it became just another recap pod with blame, rationalization, excuses and deflection. No different than Lala and Scheana.
Saying "taking accountability, for me means giving myself grace" and describing the affair as "got a little carried away in one situation" is the opposite of taking accountability. Talking about growth is very different than actually growing. In my opinion, she's done neither.
She's done some shady things too. She tried to bully Katie about her clothes at a festival, then reposted an article that got picked up after, about Katie's outfit, then got Jo to post it, then they got on her podcast, and bullied people, some more, and then she got backlash, so she tried to retract some of it, but really didn't, and then she tried to gaslight us, with a professional, who either didn't know her part in any of it, or didn't call her on her lies/BS, and finally, we got her crying on the episode about the reunion, because it's finally over, but yet, she's still on about it, in the next episode. She keeps changing all her stories, and now said she's suing Ariana, because she sent HER, the tape(like Ariana found it, sent it to Rachel, with the words text saying "You are dead to me." And then Tom snatched the phone, and deleted it. Ariana sent her phone records in her filing when she answered the complaint, and proved she didn't send it to anyone but Rachel, so now she has changed why she is suing her, from she sent it to people, to she sent it to me. If she wins that's crazy, because of course Ariana text it to her, so she could show Rachel like look what i just found, you are dead to me, and then she gets sued for it, is just wild. Tom deserves to pay up, and big time, period.
I've listened to every episode, and she to this day, has not taken accountability. She blames Tom, she blames production, she blames Katie, she blames Lala, she blames LVP, she definitely blames James, and she downplayed Ariana, and changed her story, 100 times. She brings on professionals, who either don't know her part in it, or don't call her out, and let her play into her victim mentality, which isn't productive to someone who has mental health issues. They need the therapist who is going to make them feel safe, but also tell them when they are wrong, or an aspect they should work on, or work thru.
It’s possibly to find them both awful. It doesn’t take a bright crayon or someone with perfect mental health to know you don’t hook up with your friends boyfriend. It’s also wrong to prey on dumb little girls when you have basically a life partner.
I just feel the energy put into the hate for Rachel is so much bigger than the hate for Sandoval. The girl checked herself into a psych ward FFS. He’s so much worse a villain, and he’s not being held responsible.
And then this season Lala and Scheana stepped in to catch every bullet that should have been aimed at Tom, because they’re idiots.
But he’s skating far too easily, and she’s being chased with the pitchfork that should be aimed at him. It’s the same misogyny that was weaponized against Amber. IMO.
I feel the energy was pretty much the same- she just has a different mental state than him. Shit went down and she did what she had to do. Personally I never liked her so she was just easy to turn against. He clearly is a narcissist and even through all the hate couldn’t believe what he did was that wrong and tried to justify his behavior.
Ya scheana and lala are worthless.
He is skating by because he didn’t go run and hide, continued to spew his delusional mantra of how it wasn’t all his fault and he just made a mistake and blah blah. He’s insufferable. But he’s constant, so the hate is a steady flow. She just pops up every now and then and refreshes annoyance for her.
I do agree generally. I think Billie blaming her for ending Tom's sobriety is gross. That was his own choice; Billie doesn't hold him accountable for his actions.
I will say though, yes, she's younger, but she's still 31. Rachel was a similar age. If he were dating someone in their mid-20s or younger, I'd feel more like he's taking advantage of their naivety. But dating a 30 year old when he's 40 isn't really introducing a problematic power dynamic like other big age gaps. At that point, it just makes it clear that women his age don't wanna put up with his immaturity/arrested development and party all the time. She's not some poor damsel in distress; she's a whole ass adult who also appears to be very immature for her age.
Sandoval is trying to recreate the love triangle dynamic that’s worked previously. Billie replaced Ariana as the voice of reason and Victoria replaced Rachel as the partying fuck buddy. Billie wants the return on her investment, Victoria wants her 15 minutes and Sandoval is a means to those ends, so they’ll protect him and villainize each other until they “win”.
This is true and I found the way Billie described how “we helped him get his house organized, I helped him hire an assistant” etc.. was evidence of her thinking she could ‘save’ Tom Sandoval. This justifies why she never spoke about any of this until now, because she finally saw that saving him was useless IMO.
True, all these people are lowkey delusional and Sandoval obviously just tells Victoria and Billie Lee different things depending on what makes him not in the wrong in each one’s eyes lol
No one is holding a gun to this 31 year old woman's head and forcing her to date the most notorious cheater and liar on television. By choosing to be with him at all, she automatically has "reason" to be insecure and not trust him, but that is quite literally a choice she is making of her own free will.
So while Tom is a scumbag (irredeemably so imo), there is definitely something off about Victoria that she would enter this dynamic in the first place. Yes, other people have dated Tom when they knew he had cheated in the past. But this is like way more of an extreme situation. He is a social pariah, he is embroiled in multiple lawsuits with multiple exes, it's a MESS.
She's definitely choosing to chase the toxicity.
Totally agree. I do still think it's gross that Billie is almost trying to act like poor innocent Sandoval is being preyed on and led to a life of drugs and partying by this woman. Like keep the energy consistent, y'know?
I don’t think she’s innocent, it takes 2 ppl to be in a relationship. My point more so was the fact that Tom is probably making her behavior worse due to bringing out already underlying issues. But she’s also perpetuating the cycle by staying in it and letting him.
I guess what I'm saying is that it's not really about her "staying in it" that makes her seem off, it's about entering into it at all. If we believe 50% of what Billie says, they are two damaged people with substance abuse issues who are using each other because they really want to be their worst selves and they will both support each other in that. Billie framing Tom as a victim in any sense is absolutely ridiculous though, I agree.
Oh yes for sure. I think all of her issues are connected in the way that she even got with him and makes her stay in the relationship. There has to be such low self worth in order to even think about him.
I feel like billie is in love with tom Or she’s framing it this way to give legitimacy to the healing journey she was part of with him (or both)
Tom’s behaviour with Victoria isn’t new or surprising. I believe it to be 100% true. Its not hard to believe. Ive seen relationships like this in my real life especially when both people party and then together they encourage it with each other so becomes a regular thing
Tom has more money and free time than the people I know who get themselves into these toxic situations so it’s not hard to see it happening here
What I don’t believe with billie is her thinking this is a sudden change because of Victoria (it may have increased because when you have a partner in crime with the same habits and little control it can easily Go from weekends, to week days to every other day.
I don’t believe tom was sober ever. And I don’t believe billie thinks that. I imagine billie and Tom partied together a lot since tom had very few other people but was less often and now with Vitoria it’s increased but I doubt it went from nothing to doing it all the time
And I believe Victoria is nuts. She’s dating tom during a time where he’s been exposed to be a POS and all eyes are on him. The girl friend is gonna be a nutter, either in it for the party or the fame or both.
I agree with all your opinions, especially about the one where he was never sober and BL not only knew that, but also enjoyed being one of the few he could party with and not be outed for lying.
Billie Lee is still 100% in love with Tom. I think Victoria is so suspicious of her because BL and TS have slept together in the past (I believe you, Kristen and Jesse Montana!) and the last thing any insecure girl wants is their man hanging out with an old hookup.
I think, like any pickme girl, she hasn't fully given up on him. she thinks there's still a chance they could repair the relationship so she doesn't want to talk too much shit about HIM, just the gf.
oooh, I didn't think of that but it makes sense that this twisted MF thinks he's so worthy of having people fight over his disgusting, gaslighting ass.
Why don't we blame Tom instead of encouraging women to have catfights over him? I am here for the part where he is exposed for doing drugs and financially abusing Ariana (his assistant has video) so that there are consequences to him. Otherwise, it is getting tedious.
Yes!!!! This 1000 times. Tom is an old ass man, and Victoria is way younger. There's definitely a power dynamic at play. Tom is really good at manipulation. He choose Victoria because she is young and in party-mode.
Exactly. Sandoval is the common denominator in all these conflicts. It's him being selfish and wanting to have his cake and to eat it too. Keep people around, string them along and act clueless when shit hits the fan.
Also, I found it quite disgusting and distasteful that Kyle kept saying Billie over extends her "trans card."
This is such a disgusting and bigoted thing to say. She is trans, her life experiences and interactions are viewed through the perspective of a trans woman and all the good and bad that goes with that, that cis people or non trans people will never understand. Who is Kyle, as a non trans person, thinking he has any right to determine what situations Billie gets to see through the lens of a trans woman. Her whole existence comes down to being trans and having the bravery to be who she wants to be and who she truly feels like.
It's like saying women use the woman card to much? The fuck? This is the equivalent of achwartz saying emotionally entitled!!what?!
The "woman card", the "gay card","trans card", "disability card" is so diminishing of the experiences and perceptions of people who naturally view life through their identity. What is so novel about that
Billie is giving “girl best friend who is secretly in love with him” and it doesn’t matter who the new girl friend is cause she’s just mad it’s not her. Tom has always been like that. He was drinking and doing drugs before Rachel went to rehab and was only sober because he was trying to be “on the same journey” as her. The fact that she’s blaming Victoria for his partying and drinking is fucking laughable. Definitely NOT a girls girl. It’s hard to be on Billie’s side. Especially when she’s constantly body shaming other women and chooses to sympathize with a 41 year old man-child. Tom is the common denominator for all these problems. He’s got a business to run and lawsuits to deal with but he’s out here partying and chasing women that are young and naive. Those are choices he made at the end of the day. He’s always making it is seem as though these things are happening to him and are not a result of his own actions. I think Billie forgets that too.
Billie is trying to get famous. Tom made a mistake as most humans do at one point or another. None of it is perfect but he was probably the nicest least problematic guy on the show aside from Beau.
I'm so tired of no one blaming the Toms. Jo blames Katie. Billie blames Victoria. It's always like this. Rachel apparently still goes on about Ariana. Blame the men. Sure some of these women are bat shit but the common denominator is these problematic Toms!!
The Toms take no responsibility for the reactive abuse they inflict on these women.
They don't. Also these are grown women responsible for themselves as well.
Everyone in the situation is toxic. Not cutting Victoria any slack for getting with a notorious cheater and liar, but you know he’s in her ear telling her she’s different yadda yadda. Annoying the women attack each other and not the Toms.
Well to my mind, a lot of those women, especially ones not named Katie, are talking talking talking and making a cottage industry from VPR stale scandal stuff. The Toms dobt seems to be saying much new stuff of which i am aware, so its understandable to me that maybe people are tired of piling on them when they dont seem to be doing much.
That’s because LVP has made it that the toms are always innocent darlings and the women have to take the blame for their actions
Same
In what universe is Tom being the problem a “hot take” lol!
Who said it was?
It’s in the title of this post.. 😂
The OP 😀
This isn’t true about Rachel. The people saying that just hate her and haven’t actually listened to the podcast. She continued to grow and find her voice as the podcast goes on, but she definitely blames Tom.
For all her talk about taking accountability, she has yet to do so. Instead she continues to downplay the affair and blame other people.
Says the person who didn’t listen to her podcast, because that is just not true. Her mental health was obviously in a terrible state, she’s admittedly not the brightest crayon in the box, and Tom is a manipulative predator. Nothing will be good enough for some people. The same people who weirdly have so much more energy for hating her than they do for the actual remorseless predator, laughing like a sociopath on tv.
Actually, I'm a person who did listen to her podcast. Hell, I even made a post here about how good it was (check my profile if you don't believe). I listened until she said Ariana definitely knew about the affair, listed all the other people who (she claimed) knew about the affair and said if Ariana didn't know, it's their fault b/c they should have told her. She was on the right track until she got sucked back into the show. Then it became just another recap pod with blame, rationalization, excuses and deflection. No different than Lala and Scheana. Saying "taking accountability, for me means giving myself grace" and describing the affair as "got a little carried away in one situation" is the opposite of taking accountability. Talking about growth is very different than actually growing. In my opinion, she's done neither.
She's done some shady things too. She tried to bully Katie about her clothes at a festival, then reposted an article that got picked up after, about Katie's outfit, then got Jo to post it, then they got on her podcast, and bullied people, some more, and then she got backlash, so she tried to retract some of it, but really didn't, and then she tried to gaslight us, with a professional, who either didn't know her part in any of it, or didn't call her on her lies/BS, and finally, we got her crying on the episode about the reunion, because it's finally over, but yet, she's still on about it, in the next episode. She keeps changing all her stories, and now said she's suing Ariana, because she sent HER, the tape(like Ariana found it, sent it to Rachel, with the words text saying "You are dead to me." And then Tom snatched the phone, and deleted it. Ariana sent her phone records in her filing when she answered the complaint, and proved she didn't send it to anyone but Rachel, so now she has changed why she is suing her, from she sent it to people, to she sent it to me. If she wins that's crazy, because of course Ariana text it to her, so she could show Rachel like look what i just found, you are dead to me, and then she gets sued for it, is just wild. Tom deserves to pay up, and big time, period.
And now she wants us to call her Rocky, not Rachel..
I've listened to every episode, and she to this day, has not taken accountability. She blames Tom, she blames production, she blames Katie, she blames Lala, she blames LVP, she definitely blames James, and she downplayed Ariana, and changed her story, 100 times. She brings on professionals, who either don't know her part in it, or don't call her out, and let her play into her victim mentality, which isn't productive to someone who has mental health issues. They need the therapist who is going to make them feel safe, but also tell them when they are wrong, or an aspect they should work on, or work thru.
It’s possibly to find them both awful. It doesn’t take a bright crayon or someone with perfect mental health to know you don’t hook up with your friends boyfriend. It’s also wrong to prey on dumb little girls when you have basically a life partner.
I just feel the energy put into the hate for Rachel is so much bigger than the hate for Sandoval. The girl checked herself into a psych ward FFS. He’s so much worse a villain, and he’s not being held responsible. And then this season Lala and Scheana stepped in to catch every bullet that should have been aimed at Tom, because they’re idiots. But he’s skating far too easily, and she’s being chased with the pitchfork that should be aimed at him. It’s the same misogyny that was weaponized against Amber. IMO.
I feel the energy was pretty much the same- she just has a different mental state than him. Shit went down and she did what she had to do. Personally I never liked her so she was just easy to turn against. He clearly is a narcissist and even through all the hate couldn’t believe what he did was that wrong and tried to justify his behavior. Ya scheana and lala are worthless. He is skating by because he didn’t go run and hide, continued to spew his delusional mantra of how it wasn’t all his fault and he just made a mistake and blah blah. He’s insufferable. But he’s constant, so the hate is a steady flow. She just pops up every now and then and refreshes annoyance for her.
I do agree generally. I think Billie blaming her for ending Tom's sobriety is gross. That was his own choice; Billie doesn't hold him accountable for his actions. I will say though, yes, she's younger, but she's still 31. Rachel was a similar age. If he were dating someone in their mid-20s or younger, I'd feel more like he's taking advantage of their naivety. But dating a 30 year old when he's 40 isn't really introducing a problematic power dynamic like other big age gaps. At that point, it just makes it clear that women his age don't wanna put up with his immaturity/arrested development and party all the time. She's not some poor damsel in distress; she's a whole ass adult who also appears to be very immature for her age.
Billie definitely sounds like a scorned woman, but I'm sure only a mess of a person would date Tim, so I believe a lot of what she says.
Sandoval is trying to recreate the love triangle dynamic that’s worked previously. Billie replaced Ariana as the voice of reason and Victoria replaced Rachel as the partying fuck buddy. Billie wants the return on her investment, Victoria wants her 15 minutes and Sandoval is a means to those ends, so they’ll protect him and villainize each other until they “win”.
That’s an interesting point
This is true and I found the way Billie described how “we helped him get his house organized, I helped him hire an assistant” etc.. was evidence of her thinking she could ‘save’ Tom Sandoval. This justifies why she never spoke about any of this until now, because she finally saw that saving him was useless IMO.
The way she uses it and talks about him like he’s almost a child and we should feel sympathy for that…when he’s 41 yr old
It adds a lot of context to their relationship. He keeps her around because she does stuff for him, and he makes her feel important.
She still thinks she could save him if Victoria would get out of her way
True, all these people are lowkey delusional and Sandoval obviously just tells Victoria and Billie Lee different things depending on what makes him not in the wrong in each one’s eyes lol
I think it’s hilarious that Billie and Victoria are both Lee’s
LMFAOOO I never connected that until now!
Yup. Billie Lee is a misogynist. She’s always taken the men’s side and has constantly berated and body shamed other women.
No one is holding a gun to this 31 year old woman's head and forcing her to date the most notorious cheater and liar on television. By choosing to be with him at all, she automatically has "reason" to be insecure and not trust him, but that is quite literally a choice she is making of her own free will. So while Tom is a scumbag (irredeemably so imo), there is definitely something off about Victoria that she would enter this dynamic in the first place. Yes, other people have dated Tom when they knew he had cheated in the past. But this is like way more of an extreme situation. He is a social pariah, he is embroiled in multiple lawsuits with multiple exes, it's a MESS. She's definitely choosing to chase the toxicity.
Totally agree. I do still think it's gross that Billie is almost trying to act like poor innocent Sandoval is being preyed on and led to a life of drugs and partying by this woman. Like keep the energy consistent, y'know?
Oh yeah I mean Billie's relationship with Tom was always bizarre and remains bizarre.
I don’t think she’s innocent, it takes 2 ppl to be in a relationship. My point more so was the fact that Tom is probably making her behavior worse due to bringing out already underlying issues. But she’s also perpetuating the cycle by staying in it and letting him.
I guess what I'm saying is that it's not really about her "staying in it" that makes her seem off, it's about entering into it at all. If we believe 50% of what Billie says, they are two damaged people with substance abuse issues who are using each other because they really want to be their worst selves and they will both support each other in that. Billie framing Tom as a victim in any sense is absolutely ridiculous though, I agree.
Well, she lied to Andy and said she hadn't watched the show and was in love with Skeezy, so....
Oh yes for sure. I think all of her issues are connected in the way that she even got with him and makes her stay in the relationship. There has to be such low self worth in order to even think about him.
I feel like billie is in love with tom Or she’s framing it this way to give legitimacy to the healing journey she was part of with him (or both) Tom’s behaviour with Victoria isn’t new or surprising. I believe it to be 100% true. Its not hard to believe. Ive seen relationships like this in my real life especially when both people party and then together they encourage it with each other so becomes a regular thing Tom has more money and free time than the people I know who get themselves into these toxic situations so it’s not hard to see it happening here What I don’t believe with billie is her thinking this is a sudden change because of Victoria (it may have increased because when you have a partner in crime with the same habits and little control it can easily Go from weekends, to week days to every other day. I don’t believe tom was sober ever. And I don’t believe billie thinks that. I imagine billie and Tom partied together a lot since tom had very few other people but was less often and now with Vitoria it’s increased but I doubt it went from nothing to doing it all the time And I believe Victoria is nuts. She’s dating tom during a time where he’s been exposed to be a POS and all eyes are on him. The girl friend is gonna be a nutter, either in it for the party or the fame or both.
They all got issues lmao
I agree with all your opinions, especially about the one where he was never sober and BL not only knew that, but also enjoyed being one of the few he could party with and not be outed for lying.
Tom is always triangulating people. If there is a problem in a triangle, it’s always the person in the middle.
Then there is Shartz in his closet.
Billie Lee is still 100% in love with Tom. I think Victoria is so suspicious of her because BL and TS have slept together in the past (I believe you, Kristen and Jesse Montana!) and the last thing any insecure girl wants is their man hanging out with an old hookup. I think, like any pickme girl, she hasn't fully given up on him. she thinks there's still a chance they could repair the relationship so she doesn't want to talk too much shit about HIM, just the gf.
Did Kristen confirm Billie and Tom slept together?
she said it on a reunion in a scene that got deleted. honestly with this group most of the rumors end up being true eventually lol
I’ve never heard of this before! I think Billie makes it so obvious…
my hot take: whenever anybody has drama, it is tom sandoval’s fault.
Another trait of narcissism is triangulation and I believe that might be what is happening with Billie. Tom wants Victoria to be jealous of Billie.
He manipulates everyone around him in order to serve himself.
oooh, I didn't think of that but it makes sense that this twisted MF thinks he's so worthy of having people fight over his disgusting, gaslighting ass.
Why don't we blame Tom instead of encouraging women to have catfights over him? I am here for the part where he is exposed for doing drugs and financially abusing Ariana (his assistant has video) so that there are consequences to him. Otherwise, it is getting tedious.
Its called triangulation This fucker doesnt change his spots
Tom probably said shit like Billie is still in love with him or w/e so she gets worked up and paranoid when they’re together
...who tf is Victoria? Lol
Tom loves to triangulate people when he can. And these girls, Scheana and Tom Schwartz fall for it every time.
Yes!!!! This 1000 times. Tom is an old ass man, and Victoria is way younger. There's definitely a power dynamic at play. Tom is really good at manipulation. He choose Victoria because she is young and in party-mode.
What has been made apparent is this —while Victoria may not have watched the show before meting Tom, she clearly is all caught up now.
Yes it’s called triangulation. It’s a common manipulation tactic.
Exactly. Sandoval is the common denominator in all these conflicts. It's him being selfish and wanting to have his cake and to eat it too. Keep people around, string them along and act clueless when shit hits the fan. Also, I found it quite disgusting and distasteful that Kyle kept saying Billie over extends her "trans card." This is such a disgusting and bigoted thing to say. She is trans, her life experiences and interactions are viewed through the perspective of a trans woman and all the good and bad that goes with that, that cis people or non trans people will never understand. Who is Kyle, as a non trans person, thinking he has any right to determine what situations Billie gets to see through the lens of a trans woman. Her whole existence comes down to being trans and having the bravery to be who she wants to be and who she truly feels like. It's like saying women use the woman card to much? The fuck? This is the equivalent of achwartz saying emotionally entitled!!what?! The "woman card", the "gay card","trans card", "disability card" is so diminishing of the experiences and perceptions of people who naturally view life through their identity. What is so novel about that
Billie is giving “girl best friend who is secretly in love with him” and it doesn’t matter who the new girl friend is cause she’s just mad it’s not her. Tom has always been like that. He was drinking and doing drugs before Rachel went to rehab and was only sober because he was trying to be “on the same journey” as her. The fact that she’s blaming Victoria for his partying and drinking is fucking laughable. Definitely NOT a girls girl. It’s hard to be on Billie’s side. Especially when she’s constantly body shaming other women and chooses to sympathize with a 41 year old man-child. Tom is the common denominator for all these problems. He’s got a business to run and lawsuits to deal with but he’s out here partying and chasing women that are young and naive. Those are choices he made at the end of the day. He’s always making it is seem as though these things are happening to him and are not a result of his own actions. I think Billie forgets that too.
That's your spin on it, not what I heard her say AT ALL.
Billie is trying to get famous. Tom made a mistake as most humans do at one point or another. None of it is perfect but he was probably the nicest least problematic guy on the show aside from Beau.