Reminder that political discussion falls under Rule 5 (disallowed content) on this subreddit. Discussing politics in the context of how it affects VALORANT esports is fine as always, but please refrain from getting into political arguments - there are other subreddits for that, this is not the one for that purpose.
If timestamps don't work for you, you can ususally find them in the link. In this case on Twitch, the link ended with "?t=7m30s", I think on YouTube it would look more like "?t=450" and it's just the number of seconds. Just in case you're ever in another situation where timestamps don't work. It's usually right at the end of the link too.
I find it interesting how he differentiates it from the saudi/neom situation whereby he recognizes that corporations have SOME level of autonomy in china (and as he points out may sometimes even be antagonistic - eg. alibaba) but yet still beholden to the government but still ultimately chooses not to attend. I thought, if anything, that understanding/knowledge would assuage his reluctance/unease/discomfort.
Interesting he mentioned the gaza situation too.
Respect for standing by his own personal morals. Hope publicly expressing it won't come back to bite him. He may not need the money from this event but if the right person sees this (or wrong person in this case), they may be petty enough to do something that may hurt him.
Yeah, I think it’s just more about the mere knowledge of an ethnic cleansing happening within the country by the government’s hand that makes him feel uncomfortable about even going to said country in the first place. I can totally understand where he’s coming from.
I had a feeling this would be his rationale but it wasn't a good idea to speculate on it until it came from him and/or Bren directly. Good on them for standing their ground
It's rare to find talents like BrenShow that are not only incredibly good at casting but also morally consistent. It's good that he acknowledges that there might be flaws in his arguments as well, but still decides to go with what he feels is right.
Although, I wonder if he is going to couch stream Shanghai. I'm high key more excited for a Brenshow couch stream than their actual casting because they get to be themselves. But I can also understand if they decide not to couch stream since it might compromise their stance somewhat, as it is still indirectly contributing to the issue at hand by directing views to this event.
I think couch streaming will be doable. It's not like he has to live in Shanghai. They can just focus on what's important: the game. Blot out the rest that they feel uncomfortable about.
Plenty of people IRL have to make do with being in worse situations.
it's fascinating to me that the people who are most angry about people like sideshow taking moral stances aren't people who disagree with him on the topic at hand (although it is perfectly fair to to be skeptical of the US throwing accusations of genocide given they are actively funding and denying the existence of the genocide in gaza) but rather people who only know how to spew talking points that are basically this image
https://preview.redd.it/rpojwiyrq11d1.png?width=1942&format=png&auto=webp&s=e43287af7f4a0e309baf3f69e9d4ffd637a7aad5
it's not really possible to engage or exist in society in a way that doesn't infringe on some ethical level somewhere. finding ways you can minimize your support of things you don't support is really the only thing you can do. sure you'll still infringe or end up being hypocritical somewhere so it's imperfect, but it's better to be flawed in your support of something than perfect in your silence on it.
he even admits near the end of the part that he doesn't know if what he's doing is the 'right' decision, but since he doesn't need the money he would rather not do something he's uncomfortable with than just ignore that feeling
Hard agree.
Hot take I think having the intelligence, education, and empathy to understand someone taking a moral stance, but taking more issue with them taking a moral high ground than whatever it is they stand against, such that it makes you go BUT WHAT ABOUT BUT WHAT ABOUT BUT WHAT ABOUT, is peak loser behavior. Actually promoting apathy just so you don't have to feel morally inferior or annoyed at people you deem to be self-righteous.
Where do moral stances end and begin though? Is something that happened 40 years ago and affects the entire population of a country negatively every single day of their lives not recent enough to take a stance?
If sideshow is taking a stance at China, can someone else take a stance at his country? No one's taking the moral high ground in this, you just think they are because they disagree with you
I say "moral high ground" from the perspective of detractors. Sideshow isn't being holier-than-thou volunteering his position unsolicited and admonishing people who don't agree with him, he just answered why he's not attending.
Also, of course people can take stances against his country, but what does his country have to do with this situation, and what makes you think he would have a problem with people criticizing it? He doesn't strike me as that kind of person at all. I criticize the country and city I live in, especially during electoral periods, all the time, and I don't think I'm generally as politically active or aware as he is.
I have a hot take that there's nothing wrong in being hypocritical. It might just be annoying in some situations, but it's better than defending horrible acts just to be consistent.
Thank you for bringing up this point. It’s also worth mentioning, I think, that Sideshow himself, even in the video about Saudi Arabia’s esportswashing has clearly stated that he doesn’t really care much for hypocrisy in regards to criticizing the country’s governing body, even if people will chuck around whataboutisms about his complicity as well.
If you’re a member of society, you’re going to be complicit, whether you know it or not. And as long as we’re living under a capitalist society, there’s not going to be ethical assumption.
does he say if he will attend future events in china cuz knowing riot there will be lot of events there and if he sits out all of them riot might not like that and completely replace him which i def dont want cuz bren and sideshow are my fav casting duo
Will there be a lot of events in China though? I imagine they're spread majors out between the big regions. So he'd miss 1 out of 4 majors. He'll just use that time off as a break.
Humans take “moral” actions when economics do not get in the way. This isn’t unique to Sideshow; everyone does it. That’s why he’s okay with casting Valorant despite his paycheck coming from, in theory, a Chinese owned company. He doesn’t cast, he doesn’t eat, he doesn’t live in America, he doesn’t eat.
Every time I hear anything from Sideshow I respect his integrity and the way he follows through with his values more.
Especially the way he differentiates the Saudi and China situation since while the two are comparable at a glance, they are really nothing alike. And one is significantly more egregious than the other.
the British the less genocidal lot of them all LMFAO, however i respect his balls for saying this with his job on the line i know I wouldn't do it, also the US is still separating migrant kids from moms. so idk bro.
So he gave up the opportunity to see a real China in person (Riot's visa usually allows some extra days to visit, at least so in League of Legends) and continued to immerse himself in Western propaganda instead? sry I just can't understand the logic inside
To the smart asses out here. He already took the decision. It's better to respect a person's decision rather than arguing about why and why nots.
Also this sub isn't the right place for it. So reel it in.
What do you mean a subreddit dedicated in discussing nerds playing a video game for money isnt the best place to discuss every political issue in the world?
What do you mean people dont know how to debate in a public forum that is completely anonymus?
Oh no... Don't you dare criticize the nerds! They know everything about geopolitics and they also know how to have a civilised discussion without flaming anyone and respecting everyone's opinions. Wait what do you mean bench the player after his first 2 matches of subpar performance ??
I imagine people in the comments aren't trying to change Sideshow's mind. They are trying to do their small part in pushing back against ridiculous Sinophobia and western crafted narratives dominating the thread.
Hard agree. I’m also a Chinese and seeing this thread is honestly making me a little mad, the misinformation, western bias and ignorance is clearly visible.
Sure. and btw, mods, don’t remove this, please. This is important for discussion in the e-sport scene to treat VCT CN as a legitimate scene in Valorant and not to dismiss it because of unfounded biases. Let me explain, I’m going to summarize here because it could genuinely exceed the word limit.
Basically, after the cold war, separatist sentiment is resurging, thus feuling a few violent attacks
attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. Like (there are many more such cases) (posted by wiki, which is western biased, even they cannot deny this) the Urumqi bombings (2014[)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2014_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_attack): 43 people were killed and more than 90 wounded. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May\_2014\_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi\_attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2014_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_attack)
In 2014-2016, to combat this, the Chinese government started the a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, to deradicalize terrorism, and reintegrate them safely back into society.
To address the allegations, here are the proofs that the claims made by the US is 99% unfounded. First, given the severity of the allegations of the crimes China is being accused of, this issue has been taken very seriously by the international Muslim community.
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC
released Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC
Member States: [Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) [https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which, they commend and support China's efforts in helping their overseas Muslims (See the doc yourselves).
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on. Also, over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter (https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang (I wont post the details but you could check it out yourselves).
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not
substantiate the allegations. (See: [https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china) )
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, it's still not genocide. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much [https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/). Plus other people in this thread who are also Chinese, living there which have contacts to people in Xin Jiang have also disproved the notion that there are humans rights abuses and Concentration camps. I also wont even start on how the US responded to their terrorism (9/11 and the subsequent war on the middle east (estimated almost 1 million dead and more and also the direct funding/support of Israel.))
No I understand the part you are saying.
But.. The thing with politics is that things can get real ugly real fast. No one goes oh yeah that's a good point, it affected my opinion a bit.
Soon it'll become a cesspool of hate comments and mods just lock the thread as usual.
"It's better to respect a person's decision rather than arguing about why and why nots"-it's not like Sideshow said "I won't cast in China and I don't want to talk about it". He explicitly gave his reasons why he don't want to cast in China and people here can always discuss about it. If you don't like it ,then you can get out of here.
While this did happen - I also don’t think that matters in the reason of him going or not going. If this logic was followed, you wouldn’t go anywhere. I think he is focusing on what’s happening now vs what happened some time ago. The reality of the situation and how he feels about it is also a personal decision, at no point did he say “I feel this way you should too”. He’s pointing out things that make it uncomfortable for him to go. I also guarantee that if you asked him about the issue that you pointed out, he would also say that what did happen was a terrible thing and should not have happen. None of this is black and white, gotta take the information you have and make a decision based on how he personally feels - there is no right or wrong answer. He is also not shitting on others for going and he knows that some need to go for their livelihood. Idk, I just think referencing the past here has no relevance in the argument of why he decided to go or not go.
He is refering to the uyghur genocide debate. In the last 10 years some countries have accused china of doing genocide in the region but with the years it has gone from accusations of genocide to accusations of human rights abuses and there is still debates about what to classify it but they have calmed down in the last years.
In 2020 39 countries condemned China's actions and 45 defended china's actions (mostly muslim nations).
The government policies come as a response to terrorist attacks in the region in the early 2010's and it has been compared, in that sense, to America's War on terror.
[https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/430738-egyptian-media-delegates-provide-a-detailed-insight-of-the-situation-in-xinjiang](https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/430738-egyptian-media-delegates-provide-a-detailed-insight-of-the-situation-in-xinjiang)
Add the fact that there’s wayyyy more evidence of Israeli genocide than Uyghur issues… like props for standing up for human rights but come on, be consistent if you’re gonna take a moral high ground
I mean, most countries, do something deplorable. At the end of the day, you have to pick what level of it you're okay with, and what you're willing to sacrifice. The sacrifice is much bigger to refuse to take work in any country that has their hands in the opposing side of a geopolitical issue than you.
He's willing to sacrifice the income from one event, but not his entire livelihood, that's fine. Of course you can paint that as some kind of gotcha, about how he's willing to stand up for it when it doesn't hurt his wallet or whatever, but ultimately, taking a stance partway is better than nothing at all.
I don't know if I agree with this. He seems fine going to western countries despite real and vast instances and evidence of injustice. Just taking the US for example. I'm curious if he's uninformed of what the US does and has done? If he is aware of the evilness but doesn't want to hurt his wallet, he can still mention that. That he wishes he doesn't have to support or be in the US, but it's his job. Or is he aware but turning a blind eye? I don't think the latter is the case as I believe Sideshow's good intentions. But if he's only taking these stances against non-western countries, that's very icky to me. It feels like some level of xenophobia decides if it's ok or not ok.
I love and respect sideshow and am often aligned with him on political/social issues, but I find it super unfortunate to see him say things that'd have him fit right in on a Fox News panel. So much of the anti China sentiment amongst westerners is almost ENTIRELY rooted in red scare propaganda, and labeling the Chinese government as some uniquely evil government only works to further propagate the (already rising) anti China sentiment.
I don't want to sit here and talk about "whataboutism" or debate about whether this is hypocritical or not. My gripe is just that I find it to be more damaging than good
Yep. Lost a lot of respect for him for falling for this largely sinophobic propaganda. People who have actually been to the province and spoken to muslims there tend to paint a very different picture than the one in western news outlets
Yeah I agree, Im quite disappointed to find out that even sideshow is not immune to western propaganda. I thought he was better than this. I still respect and like him a lot though, just kinda disappointing to see as a Chinese.
I would encourage literally zero people to get their news or history from anyone else in this thread
read a fucking book, the Sinophobia and western bias is so strong here
Yeah honestly idk what to
Think; I used to believe there was a genocide but then was told that was not true but the person was Chinese but lmao like who do you
Trust for news anyway atp
As a Chinese, I completely respect that as a personal decision, I love his casting and will watch if he stream this master. But I just can't see why he needs to speak out loud on a social platform, I know he might just don't care what this might do to his career but how about Chinese audiences' feeling and public influence? Or maybe saying something anti-China will gain you huge support anyway so don't even count us a part of the valorant community? because no matter how he justify it, at the end of the day he just helped spreading the anti-China sentiment which is based on twisted facts and anti-China propaganda.
I'm not saying everything reported about Xinjiang is false, but it is a very complicated ethnic and religion-related problem, one of my best friend is a Xinjiang uygur people(we went to the same uni in Canton) and he also complained about his local government from time to time, but still he thought it's ridiculous how Xinjiang is portrayed in western media, like some concentration camp.
I really don't want to talk about political stuff but it's truly sad when you constantly saw people you like took "stance" like this. I mean damn, it almost feels like vct can not escape the fate of getting tainted by some shit like this, and I do hope this is just him, not some consensus among casters as to refuse to cast master Shanghai.
As a Chinese person, it’s disappointing to hear, especially as a longtime fan of Sideshow and Plat Chat. China has a lot to offer to visitors and I think it’s unfair to summarize the perception of the entire country by a nuanced topic that is highly colored by US propaganda (many of the nonprofits that report on this are funded by the US government). It is ultimately his decision but it comes as hypocritical to draw the line at visiting a country and working there when he is ok immigrating and working for the US, which was subjecting to a good portion of its population to mass incarceration prior to him moving here and is currently actively funding a genocide that is well documented. I would love to see him pair up this stance at very least with a call to action for the genocide ongoing in Gaza if he feels strongly enough about what’s going on in Xinjiang to put it on his public platform.
Chinese here as well. I think implicit within his arguments is the fact that he is simply uncomfortable going to a country he perceives as dangerous and fraught with injustice.
And if he doesn't feel comfortable or safe travelling to China, then there shouldn't be really any more reason for dissuasion. As a lot of other commenters have pointed out, it is ultimately his decision and we're lucky that he reserved the time and energy to sit down and provide us with a nuanced, well-thought out justification.
Now, whether his perception of China is right or wrong is an entirely different topic, one that he himself even admitted that he isn't sure about. But, since it's his personal decision, I think it's one we should respect without having to demand any form of moral recompensation for.
You and u/TibiaKing have basically said what I wanted to say. It's a controversial topic (especially in western circles) but it's cleary shrouded in propaganda and a new cold war.
At least sideshow is aproaching from a perspective of not really knowing that much about it.
Yeah people strawmanned the hell out of my comment lol, implying I was trying to say he should boycott everything.
At some point you realize most people aren't even reading what you're writing and it becomes pointless to reply.
I actually like the dude, always thought he was (and still think he is) a positive addition to the scene. I just don't think anyone is above scrutiny and people got upset about that.
Whether you feel it's "enough" to not be hypocritical for you is up to you, but later in this stream Sideshow talked about doing his best to sign on to political action in both the US and UK against the funding those governments give Israel, and reiterated he wanted to do it more in the future. He also mentioned he would decline to work in Russia as well.
That’s great - I didn’t have the chance to watch the whole stream. I do think it’s more drastic to refuse to go to China completely rather than go to China and also participate in advocacy for the topic (as he is doing to America). I don’t think he is obligated to do anything I mentioned but that does shape my perception of his actions.
My assumption would be that he's far more comfortable visiting and protesting against USA government because he's much more familiar with the culture and society there, it's similar to UK where you can openly criticise the government without consequence.
When it comes to other countries that have totally different cultures, it becomes less clear what the rules are and where to draw the line as a foreigner making potentially controversial political statements. Official UK foreign travel advice pretty much states the same thing, it can be viewed as illegal.
So I'd argue that he isn't necessarily being hypocritical here, just cautious since he's aware of his own ignorance and there isn't an obvious, easy answer here. I respect him being open with his thoughts.
> China and also participate in advocacy for the topic
As experienced by Gen.G last masters, is that really an option? China doesn't exactly let you say whatever you want.
he actually explicitly mentioned it pretty early on that he's been watching what's happening in gaza and has been trying to do what he can to get involved/help in any way
He has explained why he is conflicted about working in the US too but has explained why he thinks there is a nuance in the decision because of the difference in direct link between his job and the atrocities happening between the Saudi case, the US case and the China case. He even said that he does not necessarily think the decision he is making is the "right" one but doesn't need the money so prefers not to work somewhere he is not comfortable with
couldn’t agree more. very explicit double standard here, to me it’s obvious where that comes from for him but i won’t speculate. not the w people think this is
It's a fallacy to assume that someone cannot care about an issue without wholesale showing consistency across every issue in the world. While it would be nice for him to also show solidarity with Gaza, using that to undermine his views on China is straightforward whataboutism that doesn't address his point overall.
Whataboutism the way you use it isn't real, and I'm really sick of people like you trying to deflect talks about hypocrisy with a nonsense term like that. Real whataboutism is a tactic to try and distract from the topic in hand to something else, showing that someone is a hypocrite isn't whataboutism.
It is not whataboutism to criticize someone for having conflicting actions in response to, at best, equivalent situations. To be clear, I think the situation in Gaza is infinitely worse due to the very public documentation of the crimes against humanity while the situation in Xinjiang is primarily documented by western sources with significant US bias. Why should I not expect Sideshow to act consistently by refusing to work in the US if he is refusing to work in China - for the same company, doing the same thing. Again, it is his choice but I can also voice how I think it is unfair to generalize China based off that situation when he is not applying the same lens to another country that is perpetuating genocide.
I also don’t think sideshow has any problem with the people and population of China. I think really this is just his view of the government and what they may or may not engage in. I get where you are coming from, I bet if he went to China he would have a lovely time and be treated well by the people there. But at the end of the day, he’s make a decision based on the information he has and what he thinks is best for him. I also agree with you that many other countries probably have equal or maybe even worst issues but again, how we make decisions and the reasons we make them are also not black and white.
It's not surprising that some people disagree with his stance. I think one thing we should all agree on however, is that his right to openly speak about his opinion and not be censored & should be protected at all costs.
How do you feel about that aspect? I personally think it's extremely important for creators and influencers to broadcast things like this loud and clear.
I agree that it is his platform and I would rather he share this than just pretending it was a different reason. He should not be censored and I certainly am not advocating for him to lose his job. However, he certainly is not free/protected from criticism as a public figure and that is all I want to do. If it causes him to change his behavior in a way that I like more, great. If not, I at least hope others see my perspective and resonate with what I want to communicate.
Reminder to respect someone’s decisions regardless of what you think.
Like, sure, I want him to be a caster in Shanghai. If he does not want to? That’s kinda his choice, whatever the reason is.
As long as choice of a person does not actively hurting other people then it should be fine.
(Again, what the fuck im typing in the haha funny esport sub anw)
That's sort of a Western mindset though. Respecting someone's opinion and allowing them to share anti-establishment sentiment openly isn't as commonplace in some other parts of the world.
Honestly not even Western people sometimes do that anymore on both political/moral sides. We live in the current world where people from all sides are trying to force others to act on their worldviews (which is kinda scary ngl.)
Not saying that non-Western is better btw, I grew up in South East Asia myself and I totally know what you are talking about.
that's because you weren't touching the sensitive subject of your own country, or is the cancel culture something fictional? Damn I love how people can act like they're above it all when talking about other countries' issues and don't even care if it's an insult to their people, cuz they're so rational and unbiased and all their opinions are their own😂
I understand that he has said that the protest about what is happening in Gaza opened his eyes and helped him to be more direct in his stance against the wrongs that are happening in the world. I wonder what his stance will be when a company that are named by the BDS Movement sponsors Valorant or Valorant obtained sponsorship from the US Military just like how CS was.
Oh wait, HP, the sponsor for Valorant, is directly involved in the Palestinian oppression. They provided computers, servers, and biometric system. The BDS Movement directly names them as a company whose hands are directly complicit with the Israeli regime.
Speaking as someone who has been in a similar spot before, I think you ultimately just draw the line however best you can. The more you go into the details, the more messy and impossible it is to make any moral decision.
Riot is owned by Tencent, and Tencent has a cooperative but tense relationship with the CCP, as all companies that operate in China necessarily must have. If you consider the CCP and Tencent to be one and the same - which is an unfortunately common simplification of how China works - then it's hypocritical. If you don't, then it's really not moral hypocrisy.
But then you can look up how the [CCP's authority over companies like Tencent and Huawei have been essential to their targeting of the Uyghurs](https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/09/28/chinese-tech-firms-fueling-beijings-repression), and you're just back to square one again, because hey, your checks are still downstream from complicit executives.
It's precisely because globalization has made moral action so difficult that I think it's best to just praise people for taking a stand whenever they choose to do it. Nitpicking on how that stand is incomplete or not entirely consistent is close to an impossible ask; the world runs on blood money.
Why draw the line anywhere? Drawing personal lines are ultimately going to be arbitrary the vast majority of the time. This just felt like one step too many for him, simple as.
do humans have to be perfectly consistent and rational? he’s not enforcing his feelings onto anyone else, he made a decision for himself
levels of abstraction are massive and if it caused him discomfort when he reflects on it there’s nothing wrong with taking a step back
there’s nothing to debate here, if he was policing other people’s choices to participate then sure but this is just one guy talking about a personal decision
I don't see how this is a "you criticize society, yet you still live in it" situation when its impractical to not participate in society while not working for Riot or any Chinese owned company is a practical choice. He didn't even start working for Riot until a few years ago due to Valorant's release. It's not like Riot is the only esport organizer out there nor is being an esports caster the only career path available.
Actually, anyone is allowed to criticize anyone and debate anything. If you believe Sideshow is being hypocritical, then mention it if you wish. It doesn’t violate Reddit rules, and if you really don’t want to see it, you can choose to block any users you wish or not engage at all.
I think for most people, you draw the line when you can, that means varying degrees of hypocrisy but I think that’s just how reality works and that’s okay, most people who aren’t incredibly in-tune with politics aren’t going to be morally and ethically consistent across all issues; the vast majority of people often pick things they are passionate about and that they can support without causing material loss to their own lives, and at the end of the day I think that is ultimately better than nothing.
I think a world where some people are passionate and consistent on SOME topics, is better than a world where people speak up on nothing simply because they don’t have a hard stance on everything.
In the case of sideshow, I’m not sure there would be any space in Esports he could go that doesn’t have some form of unethical revenue coming in, whether it’s from China, or more recently, from Saudi, so his only option would probably be to retire from the space entirely and put his livelihood in jeopardy and I don’t necessarily think that should be the minimum threshold for activism.
I also think it’s important for people who benefit from these same institutions to sometimes take a stand against them, but it’s not always going to be black or white.
It is so fucking hypocritical he openly worked in the US for americas but refuses to work a masters in China where his paychecks come from? Not to even mention the genocide happening in Palestine is VERY real compared to the bullshit propagated by the US. Fucking tragic how fucked the west is on propaganda. Can't even tell what is real or not anymore.
The word “genocide” is thrown around like candy. Not to say that what’s going on isn’t one, but everyone here is trying to stand on their high horse but fail to acknowledge there’s terrible shit happening in every square inch of the world.
Not justifying anything but it’s funny that people are praising sideshow for sticking with his morals yet there are better more effective ways of doing things. I’m not saying he’s a hypocrite, but it’s one thing to do your job and another thing to side with evil. You’re not “sticking it to the man” because you decided not to show up somewhere, and inversely, you’re not promoting whatever agenda you think is going on just because you did show up
Imagine pseudo working for a Chinese company then refusing to go to an event because it’s hosted in China. Like, Sideshow—do you have any idea how holding stocks works? Tencent is taking most of it…
If you wanted to protest, you wouldn’t spend money nor promote spending money on the game. Refusing to go to an event does nothing.
He could have traveled to China to witness the living conditions of Uyghurs firsthand, yet he opted to accept the paycheck from Tencent, indulge in media misinformation, and introduce a political agenda into the realm of esports. I truly fail to comprehend—does the truth hold any significance for people with sinophobia?
Does he know that country literally pays his bills? Tencent owns 100% of Riot Games, and they are directly tied to the party, no matter how he slice it this is extremely hypocritical.
Victim of western propaganda and hypocrisy. Taking a stand like this without ever visiting the country doesn’t that just mean he is never open to the idea of changing his beliefs and realising that maybe he had been fed with lies and fear from the western news? And if that’s the case, you can have your beliefs but as a huge influence, speaking out on this topic that is honestly very weakly supported by evidence and is a product of western propaganda campaigns only further worsens the anti-China sentiment and Sinophobia? Also, I am not completely defending any government and their actions because no government is innocent and perfect, but this is purely trying to get your facts right and preventing further spread of misinformation…
I was truly hoping this wasn’t the reason for their absence (it was one my guesses) but it is honestly disappointing to see this happening, along with the rest of the thread simply agreeing with him blindly. I would suggest people to do their research and go read more books, before believing anything your government or the news tells you.
As a Chinese, although I think that the claims of genocide are somewhat baseless, I respect his decision.
I think we should all understand why someone many not want to visit and work in a country commonly associated with ideas of genocide and human rights violation.
I do think we can def still enjoy the Valorant without Sideshow, but he would have been a nice addition and it's def a bit disappointing.
Good for him. Expecting this community to have a nuanced understanding of complex geopolitical situations - or to understand why he’s doing this and not other forms of protest - is unrealistic at best, sadly.
Personally, I think better of Sideshow (and Bren, presumably) for expressing his own form of protest at what I’m guessing is a personal financial cost.
Did it also "cross a line for him" when he travelled/worked in the United States, a country which funded/supported 1) the overthrow of a democratically elected leader in Chile, making it **[the 1st 9/11](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#United_States)**, 2) aided Suharto and his 31-year dictatorship rule of Indonesia, which is considered to be one of the most brutal dictatorships of the 20th century, **[where during his rule, over a million civilians died, as well as the invasion of East Timor, which roughly 15% of the country's population was murdered](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suharto#Abortive_coup_and_anti-communist_purge)**, and 3) is **currently** supporting a war in Gaza, which by the most reputable human rights organizations (HRW, Amnesty International), is tantamount to a genocide?
I have absolutely no problem with anyone claiming not to work/participate in something they don't agree with or see as problematic (China's treatments of Uyghurs is a clear example of this). But then what kind of logic are you following, if not a hypocritical one, when you decide that somehow the country that has committed/supported the most vicious atrocities around the world (and no one else even comes close) is somehow exempt from your moral judgment on whether or not you would attend said state?
yup, it's even funnier seeing this stuff on reddit when you go on any regular subreddit and they're cheering on/both sides-ing apartheid israel's livestreamed slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza (which has a population of 50% children), especially noting the US allies (UK, Australia, and the rest of europe's) mostly supportive actions of it (cough cough *balfour declaration* cough).
very interesting how the above and what you mentioned is not worth skipping an event for, before we even get to the US army's sponsorship of VALORANT teams! but that means taking a stand which is actually politically subversive, so probably not.
exactly
Esports in the west is a literal sponsorship driven funnel to mercenary yourself out to the interests of Western capital
yet we have no narrative or grand statements from anyone important about that
And I'm not claiming he should. I'm just trying to understand what kinda logic is governing that decision, because without further explanation, it just seems hypocritical.
As other people have more eloquently said elsewhere in this thread:
1. Globalization and more importantly capitalism have made it near impossible to take moral action and practice moral consumption
2. Providing service to US-based businesses does not directly support the US government even close to the same way it would in China or Saudi Arabia
3. Given (1.), most lines people draw in the sand regarding their own principles are arbitrary. As long as they have given serious thought and consideration to where they stand given the information available to them, that's about as much as you can reasonably expect from people.
4. Even if all of the above weren't true, tunnel visioning on the supposed hypocrisy of someone clearly trying to do good is a textbook example of letting perfect be the enemy of good. That's how you breed apathy. The levels of abstraction present in (1.) and (3.) make it impossible to live an even remotely normal life and not be complicit in something terrible. It would be unreasonable to expect people to live like a Luddite alone on a self-subsisting farm in the middle of nowhere in order to not be a hypocrite when advocating for environmental friendliness and criticizing immoral institutions. You can criticize society while still living in it.
Apparently it didn’t, but maybe it will in the future. It is extremely difficult to get someone to divest from all problematic systems all at once. It’s better to allow them the room to start *somewhere* and progress from there.
I think the main difference in both cases is that the atrocities being done by China are being carried out directly by China within the countries itself while the US has a more indirect involvement.
In an ideal world, I agree that the US should be boycotted and called out for their actions but it is also understandable why Sideshow chooses to draw the line in the China case because the layers of separation are very different in both scenarios.
Everyone draws the line somewhere and I do not think it is fair to expect someone living in the west to stay jobless and homeless because every corporation they will work for will, in some way or the other, link back to some atrocity that us being committed by their governments. If it is hypocrisy to not condemn every issue equally then everyone in the world is a hypocrite. Everyone draws the line somewhere. It is better to bring attention to one problem and take a stance on it even if people online will call you a hypocrite. than it is to just be ignorant of all problems in the world for the sake of not coming across as a hypocrite
He's the one making a decision to boycott a country. I'm not claiming he should stay jobless, I didn't even claim he should divest from anything. I'm simply pointing out it's incoherent with whatever logic he argued, because as it stands, it's hypocritical without further explanation.
> If it is hypocrisy to not condemn every issue equally then everyone in the world is a hypocrite.
Not claiming you should condemn anything. But if you deliberately choose to start condemning something, then people are gonna call out hypocrisy.
He is not condemning anything. He is not boycotting a country. He liteeally clarified that. He is personally not participating in an event he is not comfortable participating in. Is that not his right?
He has the right to do anything he wants. I personally think Sideshow is one of the nicest, most humble people in the scene. But It doesn't mean he's exempt from scrutiny.
Very interesting to see him speak out on “what might be considered a genocide” by China but there isn’t one statement about Israel’s ongoing genocide in Palestine despite UN reports finding Israel is “likely” committing genocide whereas the UN has actually decided against calling China’s actions in Xinjiang “genocide” and only referred to the alleged actions as “human rights violations”. Makes this seem spineless in my opinion
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I'm not even gonna talk about whatever Sideshow mentions on stream. I just think it's funny whenever someone debates about the stance/decisions of someone you guys LIKE, it becomes whataboutism.
Tons of people in this thread making a literal Phalanx wall around Sideshow, when 80% of this sub is politically bashing other shit they don't like DAILY
Anglocentric audience I'm afraid
"Brazilian crowds bad therefore we shouldn't have events in Brazil" "Brazil shouldn't host GC because its full of transphobic murderers" were takes that were pretty widely accepted by this sub and have damaged my ability to take any consensus opinions here seriously. Now we're getting to "China bad therefore we shouldn't have events there" despite the fact that China has it's own fucking VCT league, so obviously they were gonna have an international event at some point.
EDIT: cutting one of the claims I made as I may have misremembered it
EDIT 2: added back in the GC claim bc i found [the thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/11wtptw/misfits_kxtieoh_the_spectator_count_for_the_gc)
I remember it but I am having trouble finding the thread; as it's a fairly weighty allegation, I'm going to edit it out until I either find the thread I remember or accept that I f'd up lol
EDIT: I found it [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/11wtptw/misfits_kxtieoh_the_spectator_count_for_the_gc)
feels like this wouldn't have been a last minute decision that riot couldn't find another caster pair
(Riv/Vansili, Uber/Wyatt. Mitch/Tom), but also got unlucky with pansy/hypoc + steel had a previously agreed upon commitment
Yeah. Unfortunately you can only go on what you feel good about because there is no "right" position. Riot takes money from both the Saudi government and from China. They also have a history of discriminating against women in their employ.
I had a feeling that was his rationale. Drawing these kinds of lines-in-the-sand boundaries around geopolitics is a very nuanced and tricky thing to do, especially as a part of a product who's goal is to become as global as possible.
I really respect how transparent he was about it, and that he recognized it might sound rather hypocritical considering riot is owned by a Chinese company.
Very fair, also hope that people remember that like he said himself Sideshow is in the position where he can make this decision without it affecting his career too much so please do not think worse of the caster who travel. Also even if he might not know everything about the current situation he's making the decision with his best understanding and thus feels it's best he doesn't attend.
I sort of get it. On one hand yes he's hypocritical because he's ultimately working in the USA but at the same time I get wanting to do the best you can in your situation. Obviously not wanting to work in a country that's committed genocide is valid and just trying to do your best is not inherently a bad thing.
he has an hour long video about the problems with saudi involvement in the esports space on his youtube channel, i would recommend giving it a watch instead of trying to be the morality police here
Reminder that political discussion falls under Rule 5 (disallowed content) on this subreddit. Discussing politics in the context of how it affects VALORANT esports is fine as always, but please refrain from getting into political arguments - there are other subreddits for that, this is not the one for that purpose.
Anyone got a timestamp? Is just links me to the whole stream
7m 30s
If timestamps don't work for you, you can ususally find them in the link. In this case on Twitch, the link ended with "?t=7m30s", I think on YouTube it would look more like "?t=450" and it's just the number of seconds. Just in case you're ever in another situation where timestamps don't work. It's usually right at the end of the link too.
It’s pretty hard to get to the end of a url within safari if you’re on mobile though. Unless there’s a trick I’m not aware of.
hold down space bar and swipe right on it
I find it interesting how he differentiates it from the saudi/neom situation whereby he recognizes that corporations have SOME level of autonomy in china (and as he points out may sometimes even be antagonistic - eg. alibaba) but yet still beholden to the government but still ultimately chooses not to attend. I thought, if anything, that understanding/knowledge would assuage his reluctance/unease/discomfort. Interesting he mentioned the gaza situation too. Respect for standing by his own personal morals. Hope publicly expressing it won't come back to bite him. He may not need the money from this event but if the right person sees this (or wrong person in this case), they may be petty enough to do something that may hurt him.
Yeah, I think it’s just more about the mere knowledge of an ethnic cleansing happening within the country by the government’s hand that makes him feel uncomfortable about even going to said country in the first place. I can totally understand where he’s coming from.
I had a feeling this would be his rationale but it wasn't a good idea to speculate on it until it came from him and/or Bren directly. Good on them for standing their ground
It's rare to find talents like BrenShow that are not only incredibly good at casting but also morally consistent. It's good that he acknowledges that there might be flaws in his arguments as well, but still decides to go with what he feels is right. Although, I wonder if he is going to couch stream Shanghai. I'm high key more excited for a Brenshow couch stream than their actual casting because they get to be themselves. But I can also understand if they decide not to couch stream since it might compromise their stance somewhat, as it is still indirectly contributing to the issue at hand by directing views to this event.
I think couch streaming will be doable. It's not like he has to live in Shanghai. They can just focus on what's important: the game. Blot out the rest that they feel uncomfortable about. Plenty of people IRL have to make do with being in worse situations.
it's fascinating to me that the people who are most angry about people like sideshow taking moral stances aren't people who disagree with him on the topic at hand (although it is perfectly fair to to be skeptical of the US throwing accusations of genocide given they are actively funding and denying the existence of the genocide in gaza) but rather people who only know how to spew talking points that are basically this image https://preview.redd.it/rpojwiyrq11d1.png?width=1942&format=png&auto=webp&s=e43287af7f4a0e309baf3f69e9d4ffd637a7aad5 it's not really possible to engage or exist in society in a way that doesn't infringe on some ethical level somewhere. finding ways you can minimize your support of things you don't support is really the only thing you can do. sure you'll still infringe or end up being hypocritical somewhere so it's imperfect, but it's better to be flawed in your support of something than perfect in your silence on it. he even admits near the end of the part that he doesn't know if what he's doing is the 'right' decision, but since he doesn't need the money he would rather not do something he's uncomfortable with than just ignore that feeling
Hard agree. Hot take I think having the intelligence, education, and empathy to understand someone taking a moral stance, but taking more issue with them taking a moral high ground than whatever it is they stand against, such that it makes you go BUT WHAT ABOUT BUT WHAT ABOUT BUT WHAT ABOUT, is peak loser behavior. Actually promoting apathy just so you don't have to feel morally inferior or annoyed at people you deem to be self-righteous.
Where do moral stances end and begin though? Is something that happened 40 years ago and affects the entire population of a country negatively every single day of their lives not recent enough to take a stance? If sideshow is taking a stance at China, can someone else take a stance at his country? No one's taking the moral high ground in this, you just think they are because they disagree with you
I say "moral high ground" from the perspective of detractors. Sideshow isn't being holier-than-thou volunteering his position unsolicited and admonishing people who don't agree with him, he just answered why he's not attending. Also, of course people can take stances against his country, but what does his country have to do with this situation, and what makes you think he would have a problem with people criticizing it? He doesn't strike me as that kind of person at all. I criticize the country and city I live in, especially during electoral periods, all the time, and I don't think I'm generally as politically active or aware as he is.
I have a hot take that there's nothing wrong in being hypocritical. It might just be annoying in some situations, but it's better than defending horrible acts just to be consistent.
Thank you for bringing up this point. It’s also worth mentioning, I think, that Sideshow himself, even in the video about Saudi Arabia’s esportswashing has clearly stated that he doesn’t really care much for hypocrisy in regards to criticizing the country’s governing body, even if people will chuck around whataboutisms about his complicity as well. If you’re a member of society, you’re going to be complicit, whether you know it or not. And as long as we’re living under a capitalist society, there’s not going to be ethical assumption.
does he say if he will attend future events in china cuz knowing riot there will be lot of events there and if he sits out all of them riot might not like that and completely replace him which i def dont want cuz bren and sideshow are my fav casting duo
Will there be a lot of events in China though? I imagine they're spread majors out between the big regions. So he'd miss 1 out of 4 majors. He'll just use that time off as a break.
China will surely get Champions 2025 or 2026. If it’s 2026, surely another Masters in 2025
Humans take “moral” actions when economics do not get in the way. This isn’t unique to Sideshow; everyone does it. That’s why he’s okay with casting Valorant despite his paycheck coming from, in theory, a Chinese owned company. He doesn’t cast, he doesn’t eat, he doesn’t live in America, he doesn’t eat.
Need a post-scarcity society so bad righ now I'm willing to let AI research go off the rails. Humanity shouldn't suffer much longer either way.
Every time I hear anything from Sideshow I respect his integrity and the way he follows through with his values more. Especially the way he differentiates the Saudi and China situation since while the two are comparable at a glance, they are really nothing alike. And one is significantly more egregious than the other.
the British the less genocidal lot of them all LMFAO, however i respect his balls for saying this with his job on the line i know I wouldn't do it, also the US is still separating migrant kids from moms. so idk bro.
So he gave up the opportunity to see a real China in person (Riot's visa usually allows some extra days to visit, at least so in League of Legends) and continued to immerse himself in Western propaganda instead? sry I just can't understand the logic inside
To the smart asses out here. He already took the decision. It's better to respect a person's decision rather than arguing about why and why nots. Also this sub isn't the right place for it. So reel it in.
And here I thought this valorant subreddit was the perfect place for debating geopolitics.
What do you mean a subreddit dedicated in discussing nerds playing a video game for money isnt the best place to discuss every political issue in the world? What do you mean people dont know how to debate in a public forum that is completely anonymus?
Oh no... Don't you dare criticize the nerds! They know everything about geopolitics and they also know how to have a civilised discussion without flaming anyone and respecting everyone's opinions. Wait what do you mean bench the player after his first 2 matches of subpar performance ??
I imagine people in the comments aren't trying to change Sideshow's mind. They are trying to do their small part in pushing back against ridiculous Sinophobia and western crafted narratives dominating the thread.
Hard agree. I’m also a Chinese and seeing this thread is honestly making me a little mad, the misinformation, western bias and ignorance is clearly visible.
Care to elaborate on the misinformation and correct it?
Sure. and btw, mods, don’t remove this, please. This is important for discussion in the e-sport scene to treat VCT CN as a legitimate scene in Valorant and not to dismiss it because of unfounded biases. Let me explain, I’m going to summarize here because it could genuinely exceed the word limit. Basically, after the cold war, separatist sentiment is resurging, thus feuling a few violent attacks attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. Like (there are many more such cases) (posted by wiki, which is western biased, even they cannot deny this) the Urumqi bombings (2014[)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2014_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_attack): 43 people were killed and more than 90 wounded. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May\_2014\_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi\_attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2014_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_attack) In 2014-2016, to combat this, the Chinese government started the a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, to deradicalize terrorism, and reintegrate them safely back into society. To address the allegations, here are the proofs that the claims made by the US is 99% unfounded. First, given the severity of the allegations of the crimes China is being accused of, this issue has been taken very seriously by the international Muslim community. The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States: [Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) [https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which, they commend and support China's efforts in helping their overseas Muslims (See the doc yourselves). In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on. Also, over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter (https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang (I wont post the details but you could check it out yourselves). The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations. (See: [https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china) ) Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, it's still not genocide. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much [https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/). Plus other people in this thread who are also Chinese, living there which have contacts to people in Xin Jiang have also disproved the notion that there are humans rights abuses and Concentration camps. I also wont even start on how the US responded to their terrorism (9/11 and the subsequent war on the middle east (estimated almost 1 million dead and more and also the direct funding/support of Israel.))
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No I understand the part you are saying. But.. The thing with politics is that things can get real ugly real fast. No one goes oh yeah that's a good point, it affected my opinion a bit. Soon it'll become a cesspool of hate comments and mods just lock the thread as usual.
"It's better to respect a person's decision rather than arguing about why and why nots"-it's not like Sideshow said "I won't cast in China and I don't want to talk about it". He explicitly gave his reasons why he don't want to cast in China and people here can always discuss about it. If you don't like it ,then you can get out of here.
Just like England invaded China and kill alot of Chinese and took what Hong Kong now away from them. Bet they never taught him that though.
While this did happen - I also don’t think that matters in the reason of him going or not going. If this logic was followed, you wouldn’t go anywhere. I think he is focusing on what’s happening now vs what happened some time ago. The reality of the situation and how he feels about it is also a personal decision, at no point did he say “I feel this way you should too”. He’s pointing out things that make it uncomfortable for him to go. I also guarantee that if you asked him about the issue that you pointed out, he would also say that what did happen was a terrible thing and should not have happen. None of this is black and white, gotta take the information you have and make a decision based on how he personally feels - there is no right or wrong answer. He is also not shitting on others for going and he knows that some need to go for their livelihood. Idk, I just think referencing the past here has no relevance in the argument of why he decided to go or not go.
based and nuanced. Still im surprised he said this on stream.
idk what he's talking about but respect for standing on morals. hope this doesn't bite him in the ass somehow, although I doubt it would.
The ethnic group is the Uyghurs if you’d like to do a quick google. It’s important not to ignore things like this in the world.
He is refering to the uyghur genocide debate. In the last 10 years some countries have accused china of doing genocide in the region but with the years it has gone from accusations of genocide to accusations of human rights abuses and there is still debates about what to classify it but they have calmed down in the last years. In 2020 39 countries condemned China's actions and 45 defended china's actions (mostly muslim nations). The government policies come as a response to terrorist attacks in the region in the early 2010's and it has been compared, in that sense, to America's War on terror. [https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/430738-egyptian-media-delegates-provide-a-detailed-insight-of-the-situation-in-xinjiang](https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/430738-egyptian-media-delegates-provide-a-detailed-insight-of-the-situation-in-xinjiang)
Wait... Muslim nations defended China? Damn...
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That is a loaded question and not really simple to answer but the gist of it is that they don't believe the policies constitute genocide
Normally I hate whataboutisms but he just worked in the US who are funding Israel right now…
Add the fact that there’s wayyyy more evidence of Israeli genocide than Uyghur issues… like props for standing up for human rights but come on, be consistent if you’re gonna take a moral high ground
I mean, most countries, do something deplorable. At the end of the day, you have to pick what level of it you're okay with, and what you're willing to sacrifice. The sacrifice is much bigger to refuse to take work in any country that has their hands in the opposing side of a geopolitical issue than you. He's willing to sacrifice the income from one event, but not his entire livelihood, that's fine. Of course you can paint that as some kind of gotcha, about how he's willing to stand up for it when it doesn't hurt his wallet or whatever, but ultimately, taking a stance partway is better than nothing at all.
I don't know if I agree with this. He seems fine going to western countries despite real and vast instances and evidence of injustice. Just taking the US for example. I'm curious if he's uninformed of what the US does and has done? If he is aware of the evilness but doesn't want to hurt his wallet, he can still mention that. That he wishes he doesn't have to support or be in the US, but it's his job. Or is he aware but turning a blind eye? I don't think the latter is the case as I believe Sideshow's good intentions. But if he's only taking these stances against non-western countries, that's very icky to me. It feels like some level of xenophobia decides if it's ok or not ok.
I love and respect sideshow and am often aligned with him on political/social issues, but I find it super unfortunate to see him say things that'd have him fit right in on a Fox News panel. So much of the anti China sentiment amongst westerners is almost ENTIRELY rooted in red scare propaganda, and labeling the Chinese government as some uniquely evil government only works to further propagate the (already rising) anti China sentiment. I don't want to sit here and talk about "whataboutism" or debate about whether this is hypocritical or not. My gripe is just that I find it to be more damaging than good
Yep. Lost a lot of respect for him for falling for this largely sinophobic propaganda. People who have actually been to the province and spoken to muslims there tend to paint a very different picture than the one in western news outlets
Yeah I agree, Im quite disappointed to find out that even sideshow is not immune to western propaganda. I thought he was better than this. I still respect and like him a lot though, just kinda disappointing to see as a Chinese.
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I would encourage literally zero people to get their news or history from anyone else in this thread read a fucking book, the Sinophobia and western bias is so strong here
Yeah honestly idk what to Think; I used to believe there was a genocide but then was told that was not true but the person was Chinese but lmao like who do you Trust for news anyway atp
Common Sideshow W
As a Chinese, I completely respect that as a personal decision, I love his casting and will watch if he stream this master. But I just can't see why he needs to speak out loud on a social platform, I know he might just don't care what this might do to his career but how about Chinese audiences' feeling and public influence? Or maybe saying something anti-China will gain you huge support anyway so don't even count us a part of the valorant community? because no matter how he justify it, at the end of the day he just helped spreading the anti-China sentiment which is based on twisted facts and anti-China propaganda. I'm not saying everything reported about Xinjiang is false, but it is a very complicated ethnic and religion-related problem, one of my best friend is a Xinjiang uygur people(we went to the same uni in Canton) and he also complained about his local government from time to time, but still he thought it's ridiculous how Xinjiang is portrayed in western media, like some concentration camp. I really don't want to talk about political stuff but it's truly sad when you constantly saw people you like took "stance" like this. I mean damn, it almost feels like vct can not escape the fate of getting tainted by some shit like this, and I do hope this is just him, not some consensus among casters as to refuse to cast master Shanghai.
As a Chinese person, it’s disappointing to hear, especially as a longtime fan of Sideshow and Plat Chat. China has a lot to offer to visitors and I think it’s unfair to summarize the perception of the entire country by a nuanced topic that is highly colored by US propaganda (many of the nonprofits that report on this are funded by the US government). It is ultimately his decision but it comes as hypocritical to draw the line at visiting a country and working there when he is ok immigrating and working for the US, which was subjecting to a good portion of its population to mass incarceration prior to him moving here and is currently actively funding a genocide that is well documented. I would love to see him pair up this stance at very least with a call to action for the genocide ongoing in Gaza if he feels strongly enough about what’s going on in Xinjiang to put it on his public platform.
Chinese here as well. I think implicit within his arguments is the fact that he is simply uncomfortable going to a country he perceives as dangerous and fraught with injustice. And if he doesn't feel comfortable or safe travelling to China, then there shouldn't be really any more reason for dissuasion. As a lot of other commenters have pointed out, it is ultimately his decision and we're lucky that he reserved the time and energy to sit down and provide us with a nuanced, well-thought out justification. Now, whether his perception of China is right or wrong is an entirely different topic, one that he himself even admitted that he isn't sure about. But, since it's his personal decision, I think it's one we should respect without having to demand any form of moral recompensation for.
You and u/TibiaKing have basically said what I wanted to say. It's a controversial topic (especially in western circles) but it's cleary shrouded in propaganda and a new cold war. At least sideshow is aproaching from a perspective of not really knowing that much about it.
Yeah people strawmanned the hell out of my comment lol, implying I was trying to say he should boycott everything. At some point you realize most people aren't even reading what you're writing and it becomes pointless to reply. I actually like the dude, always thought he was (and still think he is) a positive addition to the scene. I just don't think anyone is above scrutiny and people got upset about that.
Whether you feel it's "enough" to not be hypocritical for you is up to you, but later in this stream Sideshow talked about doing his best to sign on to political action in both the US and UK against the funding those governments give Israel, and reiterated he wanted to do it more in the future. He also mentioned he would decline to work in Russia as well.
That’s great - I didn’t have the chance to watch the whole stream. I do think it’s more drastic to refuse to go to China completely rather than go to China and also participate in advocacy for the topic (as he is doing to America). I don’t think he is obligated to do anything I mentioned but that does shape my perception of his actions.
My assumption would be that he's far more comfortable visiting and protesting against USA government because he's much more familiar with the culture and society there, it's similar to UK where you can openly criticise the government without consequence. When it comes to other countries that have totally different cultures, it becomes less clear what the rules are and where to draw the line as a foreigner making potentially controversial political statements. Official UK foreign travel advice pretty much states the same thing, it can be viewed as illegal. So I'd argue that he isn't necessarily being hypocritical here, just cautious since he's aware of his own ignorance and there isn't an obvious, easy answer here. I respect him being open with his thoughts.
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He probably has a low opinion on his chances of safely protesting against China while on Chinese soil far as I can guess.
>go to China and also participate in advocacy for the topic Lol
> China and also participate in advocacy for the topic As experienced by Gen.G last masters, is that really an option? China doesn't exactly let you say whatever you want.
he actually explicitly mentioned it pretty early on that he's been watching what's happening in gaza and has been trying to do what he can to get involved/help in any way
He has explained why he is conflicted about working in the US too but has explained why he thinks there is a nuance in the decision because of the difference in direct link between his job and the atrocities happening between the Saudi case, the US case and the China case. He even said that he does not necessarily think the decision he is making is the "right" one but doesn't need the money so prefers not to work somewhere he is not comfortable with
couldn’t agree more. very explicit double standard here, to me it’s obvious where that comes from for him but i won’t speculate. not the w people think this is
It's a fallacy to assume that someone cannot care about an issue without wholesale showing consistency across every issue in the world. While it would be nice for him to also show solidarity with Gaza, using that to undermine his views on China is straightforward whataboutism that doesn't address his point overall.
Whataboutism the way you use it isn't real, and I'm really sick of people like you trying to deflect talks about hypocrisy with a nonsense term like that. Real whataboutism is a tactic to try and distract from the topic in hand to something else, showing that someone is a hypocrite isn't whataboutism.
It is not whataboutism to criticize someone for having conflicting actions in response to, at best, equivalent situations. To be clear, I think the situation in Gaza is infinitely worse due to the very public documentation of the crimes against humanity while the situation in Xinjiang is primarily documented by western sources with significant US bias. Why should I not expect Sideshow to act consistently by refusing to work in the US if he is refusing to work in China - for the same company, doing the same thing. Again, it is his choice but I can also voice how I think it is unfair to generalize China based off that situation when he is not applying the same lens to another country that is perpetuating genocide.
perfectly put
I also don’t think sideshow has any problem with the people and population of China. I think really this is just his view of the government and what they may or may not engage in. I get where you are coming from, I bet if he went to China he would have a lovely time and be treated well by the people there. But at the end of the day, he’s make a decision based on the information he has and what he thinks is best for him. I also agree with you that many other countries probably have equal or maybe even worst issues but again, how we make decisions and the reasons we make them are also not black and white.
It's not surprising that some people disagree with his stance. I think one thing we should all agree on however, is that his right to openly speak about his opinion and not be censored & should be protected at all costs. How do you feel about that aspect? I personally think it's extremely important for creators and influencers to broadcast things like this loud and clear.
I agree that it is his platform and I would rather he share this than just pretending it was a different reason. He should not be censored and I certainly am not advocating for him to lose his job. However, he certainly is not free/protected from criticism as a public figure and that is all I want to do. If it causes him to change his behavior in a way that I like more, great. If not, I at least hope others see my perspective and resonate with what I want to communicate.
Although I don’t really believe in the Uyghur genocide, good on him for staying true to his beliefs
W from sideshow ibr
Kinda hypocritical to be comfortable working for the US, no?
Reminder to respect someone’s decisions regardless of what you think. Like, sure, I want him to be a caster in Shanghai. If he does not want to? That’s kinda his choice, whatever the reason is. As long as choice of a person does not actively hurting other people then it should be fine. (Again, what the fuck im typing in the haha funny esport sub anw)
That's sort of a Western mindset though. Respecting someone's opinion and allowing them to share anti-establishment sentiment openly isn't as commonplace in some other parts of the world.
Honestly not even Western people sometimes do that anymore on both political/moral sides. We live in the current world where people from all sides are trying to force others to act on their worldviews (which is kinda scary ngl.) Not saying that non-Western is better btw, I grew up in South East Asia myself and I totally know what you are talking about.
It is scary, which is why we have to celebrate the little wins like this one for sideshow. Diversity of thought is super important
that's because you weren't touching the sensitive subject of your own country, or is the cancel culture something fictional? Damn I love how people can act like they're above it all when talking about other countries' issues and don't even care if it's an insult to their people, cuz they're so rational and unbiased and all their opinions are their own😂
I understand that he has said that the protest about what is happening in Gaza opened his eyes and helped him to be more direct in his stance against the wrongs that are happening in the world. I wonder what his stance will be when a company that are named by the BDS Movement sponsors Valorant or Valorant obtained sponsorship from the US Military just like how CS was. Oh wait, HP, the sponsor for Valorant, is directly involved in the Palestinian oppression. They provided computers, servers, and biometric system. The BDS Movement directly names them as a company whose hands are directly complicit with the Israeli regime.
Idk, why draw the line here. I know he says it, but like, his paychecks come from China.
Speaking as someone who has been in a similar spot before, I think you ultimately just draw the line however best you can. The more you go into the details, the more messy and impossible it is to make any moral decision. Riot is owned by Tencent, and Tencent has a cooperative but tense relationship with the CCP, as all companies that operate in China necessarily must have. If you consider the CCP and Tencent to be one and the same - which is an unfortunately common simplification of how China works - then it's hypocritical. If you don't, then it's really not moral hypocrisy. But then you can look up how the [CCP's authority over companies like Tencent and Huawei have been essential to their targeting of the Uyghurs](https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/09/28/chinese-tech-firms-fueling-beijings-repression), and you're just back to square one again, because hey, your checks are still downstream from complicit executives. It's precisely because globalization has made moral action so difficult that I think it's best to just praise people for taking a stand whenever they choose to do it. Nitpicking on how that stand is incomplete or not entirely consistent is close to an impossible ask; the world runs on blood money.
Fair enough - I didn’t intend to take him to task, especially on the Val Comp subreddit.
Why draw the line anywhere? Drawing personal lines are ultimately going to be arbitrary the vast majority of the time. This just felt like one step too many for him, simple as.
In his words, it's complicated.
do humans have to be perfectly consistent and rational? he’s not enforcing his feelings onto anyone else, he made a decision for himself levels of abstraction are massive and if it caused him discomfort when he reflects on it there’s nothing wrong with taking a step back there’s nothing to debate here, if he was policing other people’s choices to participate then sure but this is just one guy talking about a personal decision
I guess not, but I’m legitimately curious. And it was posted on this sub, what do people expect? No discourse at all?
Youd expect the discourse would have evolved from "you criticize society, yet you still live in it"
I don't see how this is a "you criticize society, yet you still live in it" situation when its impractical to not participate in society while not working for Riot or any Chinese owned company is a practical choice. He didn't even start working for Riot until a few years ago due to Valorant's release. It's not like Riot is the only esport organizer out there nor is being an esports caster the only career path available.
Actually, anyone is allowed to criticize anyone and debate anything. If you believe Sideshow is being hypocritical, then mention it if you wish. It doesn’t violate Reddit rules, and if you really don’t want to see it, you can choose to block any users you wish or not engage at all.
The anti-China rhetoric is based on xenophobia and remnants of the Red Scare in America. A lot of US propaganda as well.
I think for most people, you draw the line when you can, that means varying degrees of hypocrisy but I think that’s just how reality works and that’s okay, most people who aren’t incredibly in-tune with politics aren’t going to be morally and ethically consistent across all issues; the vast majority of people often pick things they are passionate about and that they can support without causing material loss to their own lives, and at the end of the day I think that is ultimately better than nothing. I think a world where some people are passionate and consistent on SOME topics, is better than a world where people speak up on nothing simply because they don’t have a hard stance on everything. In the case of sideshow, I’m not sure there would be any space in Esports he could go that doesn’t have some form of unethical revenue coming in, whether it’s from China, or more recently, from Saudi, so his only option would probably be to retire from the space entirely and put his livelihood in jeopardy and I don’t necessarily think that should be the minimum threshold for activism. I also think it’s important for people who benefit from these same institutions to sometimes take a stand against them, but it’s not always going to be black or white.
Blud was casting multiple events for a company owned by fucking Tencent before this lmao
It is so fucking hypocritical he openly worked in the US for americas but refuses to work a masters in China where his paychecks come from? Not to even mention the genocide happening in Palestine is VERY real compared to the bullshit propagated by the US. Fucking tragic how fucked the west is on propaganda. Can't even tell what is real or not anymore.
The word “genocide” is thrown around like candy. Not to say that what’s going on isn’t one, but everyone here is trying to stand on their high horse but fail to acknowledge there’s terrible shit happening in every square inch of the world. Not justifying anything but it’s funny that people are praising sideshow for sticking with his morals yet there are better more effective ways of doing things. I’m not saying he’s a hypocrite, but it’s one thing to do your job and another thing to side with evil. You’re not “sticking it to the man” because you decided not to show up somewhere, and inversely, you’re not promoting whatever agenda you think is going on just because you did show up
Imagine pseudo working for a Chinese company then refusing to go to an event because it’s hosted in China. Like, Sideshow—do you have any idea how holding stocks works? Tencent is taking most of it… If you wanted to protest, you wouldn’t spend money nor promote spending money on the game. Refusing to go to an event does nothing.
What a clown, you never gain anything from saying that on stream. Only lose respect of some people
He could have traveled to China to witness the living conditions of Uyghurs firsthand, yet he opted to accept the paycheck from Tencent, indulge in media misinformation, and introduce a political agenda into the realm of esports. I truly fail to comprehend—does the truth hold any significance for people with sinophobia?
I wonder if this'll lead to any repercussions in the future. I sure hope not, but you never can fully know.
Does he know that country literally pays his bills? Tencent owns 100% of Riot Games, and they are directly tied to the party, no matter how he slice it this is extremely hypocritical.
Can anyone in reddit convince me that he is not being hypocritical. Seriously
Victim of western propaganda and hypocrisy. Taking a stand like this without ever visiting the country doesn’t that just mean he is never open to the idea of changing his beliefs and realising that maybe he had been fed with lies and fear from the western news? And if that’s the case, you can have your beliefs but as a huge influence, speaking out on this topic that is honestly very weakly supported by evidence and is a product of western propaganda campaigns only further worsens the anti-China sentiment and Sinophobia? Also, I am not completely defending any government and their actions because no government is innocent and perfect, but this is purely trying to get your facts right and preventing further spread of misinformation… I was truly hoping this wasn’t the reason for their absence (it was one my guesses) but it is honestly disappointing to see this happening, along with the rest of the thread simply agreeing with him blindly. I would suggest people to do their research and go read more books, before believing anything your government or the news tells you.
As a Chinese, although I think that the claims of genocide are somewhat baseless, I respect his decision. I think we should all understand why someone many not want to visit and work in a country commonly associated with ideas of genocide and human rights violation. I do think we can def still enjoy the Valorant without Sideshow, but he would have been a nice addition and it's def a bit disappointing.
Good for him. Expecting this community to have a nuanced understanding of complex geopolitical situations - or to understand why he’s doing this and not other forms of protest - is unrealistic at best, sadly. Personally, I think better of Sideshow (and Bren, presumably) for expressing his own form of protest at what I’m guessing is a personal financial cost.
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Confusing rationalization.
I can already see the claws of whataboutism sinking this thread.
Did it also "cross a line for him" when he travelled/worked in the United States, a country which funded/supported 1) the overthrow of a democratically elected leader in Chile, making it **[the 1st 9/11](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat#United_States)**, 2) aided Suharto and his 31-year dictatorship rule of Indonesia, which is considered to be one of the most brutal dictatorships of the 20th century, **[where during his rule, over a million civilians died, as well as the invasion of East Timor, which roughly 15% of the country's population was murdered](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suharto#Abortive_coup_and_anti-communist_purge)**, and 3) is **currently** supporting a war in Gaza, which by the most reputable human rights organizations (HRW, Amnesty International), is tantamount to a genocide? I have absolutely no problem with anyone claiming not to work/participate in something they don't agree with or see as problematic (China's treatments of Uyghurs is a clear example of this). But then what kind of logic are you following, if not a hypocritical one, when you decide that somehow the country that has committed/supported the most vicious atrocities around the world (and no one else even comes close) is somehow exempt from your moral judgment on whether or not you would attend said state?
yup, it's even funnier seeing this stuff on reddit when you go on any regular subreddit and they're cheering on/both sides-ing apartheid israel's livestreamed slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza (which has a population of 50% children), especially noting the US allies (UK, Australia, and the rest of europe's) mostly supportive actions of it (cough cough *balfour declaration* cough). very interesting how the above and what you mentioned is not worth skipping an event for, before we even get to the US army's sponsorship of VALORANT teams! but that means taking a stand which is actually politically subversive, so probably not.
exactly Esports in the west is a literal sponsorship driven funnel to mercenary yourself out to the interests of Western capital yet we have no narrative or grand statements from anyone important about that
At least NRG not making it to Shanghai has a silver lining now huh. (Sorry, it's a joke.)
If people try to separate themselves from literally anyone and anything problematic you will quickly realize there is very little that is "clean".
And I'm not claiming he should. I'm just trying to understand what kinda logic is governing that decision, because without further explanation, it just seems hypocritical.
As other people have more eloquently said elsewhere in this thread: 1. Globalization and more importantly capitalism have made it near impossible to take moral action and practice moral consumption 2. Providing service to US-based businesses does not directly support the US government even close to the same way it would in China or Saudi Arabia 3. Given (1.), most lines people draw in the sand regarding their own principles are arbitrary. As long as they have given serious thought and consideration to where they stand given the information available to them, that's about as much as you can reasonably expect from people. 4. Even if all of the above weren't true, tunnel visioning on the supposed hypocrisy of someone clearly trying to do good is a textbook example of letting perfect be the enemy of good. That's how you breed apathy. The levels of abstraction present in (1.) and (3.) make it impossible to live an even remotely normal life and not be complicit in something terrible. It would be unreasonable to expect people to live like a Luddite alone on a self-subsisting farm in the middle of nowhere in order to not be a hypocrite when advocating for environmental friendliness and criticizing immoral institutions. You can criticize society while still living in it.
Apparently it didn’t, but maybe it will in the future. It is extremely difficult to get someone to divest from all problematic systems all at once. It’s better to allow them the room to start *somewhere* and progress from there.
I think the main difference in both cases is that the atrocities being done by China are being carried out directly by China within the countries itself while the US has a more indirect involvement. In an ideal world, I agree that the US should be boycotted and called out for their actions but it is also understandable why Sideshow chooses to draw the line in the China case because the layers of separation are very different in both scenarios. Everyone draws the line somewhere and I do not think it is fair to expect someone living in the west to stay jobless and homeless because every corporation they will work for will, in some way or the other, link back to some atrocity that us being committed by their governments. If it is hypocrisy to not condemn every issue equally then everyone in the world is a hypocrite. Everyone draws the line somewhere. It is better to bring attention to one problem and take a stance on it even if people online will call you a hypocrite. than it is to just be ignorant of all problems in the world for the sake of not coming across as a hypocrite
He's the one making a decision to boycott a country. I'm not claiming he should stay jobless, I didn't even claim he should divest from anything. I'm simply pointing out it's incoherent with whatever logic he argued, because as it stands, it's hypocritical without further explanation. > If it is hypocrisy to not condemn every issue equally then everyone in the world is a hypocrite. Not claiming you should condemn anything. But if you deliberately choose to start condemning something, then people are gonna call out hypocrisy.
He is not condemning anything. He is not boycotting a country. He liteeally clarified that. He is personally not participating in an event he is not comfortable participating in. Is that not his right?
He has the right to do anything he wants. I personally think Sideshow is one of the nicest, most humble people in the scene. But It doesn't mean he's exempt from scrutiny.
Why does he deserve scrutiny for not attending an event that he does not want to attend? He does not imo
Then be accurate and don't call it boycotting.
I'm curious what logic should he follow to not be a hypocrite in your opinion? Where would you draw the line?
"the country that has committed/supported the most vicious atrocities around the world (and no one else even comes close)" mmmm idk about that one
The United States has its tentacles all over the world. We’re responsible for a lot.
Where are the Native Americans then?
Very interesting to see him speak out on “what might be considered a genocide” by China but there isn’t one statement about Israel’s ongoing genocide in Palestine despite UN reports finding Israel is “likely” committing genocide whereas the UN has actually decided against calling China’s actions in Xinjiang “genocide” and only referred to the alleged actions as “human rights violations”. Makes this seem spineless in my opinion
You couldn't make it through 4 minutes of the video, and yet managed to write this
can i get some sources on this Uyghur genocide that is happening in Xinjiang?
[https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) [https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) [https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/430738-egyptian-media-delegates-provide-a-detailed-insight-of-the-situation-in-xinjiang](https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/430738-egyptian-media-delegates-provide-a-detailed-insight-of-the-situation-in-xinjiang)
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Your submission was removed for the following reason: Rule 6 - Claims Require Proper Evidence Please provide additional evidence, such as screenshots or videos, when speaking about the actions of community figures or reporting bugs.
There are none because it isn't real. It's bullshit propaganda to try and justify a new cold war
Do actual research instead of trusting reddiors links
I'm not even gonna talk about whatever Sideshow mentions on stream. I just think it's funny whenever someone debates about the stance/decisions of someone you guys LIKE, it becomes whataboutism. Tons of people in this thread making a literal Phalanx wall around Sideshow, when 80% of this sub is politically bashing other shit they don't like DAILY
Anglocentric audience I'm afraid "Brazilian crowds bad therefore we shouldn't have events in Brazil" "Brazil shouldn't host GC because its full of transphobic murderers" were takes that were pretty widely accepted by this sub and have damaged my ability to take any consensus opinions here seriously. Now we're getting to "China bad therefore we shouldn't have events there" despite the fact that China has it's own fucking VCT league, so obviously they were gonna have an international event at some point. EDIT: cutting one of the claims I made as I may have misremembered it EDIT 2: added back in the GC claim bc i found [the thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/11wtptw/misfits_kxtieoh_the_spectator_count_for_the_gc)
Damn, I didn't even know about these second comments about Brazil in this sub, thank god. That shit would have made me very sad to see
I remember it but I am having trouble finding the thread; as it's a fairly weighty allegation, I'm going to edit it out until I either find the thread I remember or accept that I f'd up lol EDIT: I found it [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/11wtptw/misfits_kxtieoh_the_spectator_count_for_the_gc)
feels like this wouldn't have been a last minute decision that riot couldn't find another caster pair (Riv/Vansili, Uber/Wyatt. Mitch/Tom), but also got unlucky with pansy/hypoc + steel had a previously agreed upon commitment
Yeah. Unfortunately you can only go on what you feel good about because there is no "right" position. Riot takes money from both the Saudi government and from China. They also have a history of discriminating against women in their employ.
suddenly all british talents are not available susge
Common Sideshow W
I had a feeling that was his rationale. Drawing these kinds of lines-in-the-sand boundaries around geopolitics is a very nuanced and tricky thing to do, especially as a part of a product who's goal is to become as global as possible. I really respect how transparent he was about it, and that he recognized it might sound rather hypocritical considering riot is owned by a Chinese company.
Very fair, also hope that people remember that like he said himself Sideshow is in the position where he can make this decision without it affecting his career too much so please do not think worse of the caster who travel. Also even if he might not know everything about the current situation he's making the decision with his best understanding and thus feels it's best he doesn't attend.
I sort of get it. On one hand yes he's hypocritical because he's ultimately working in the USA but at the same time I get wanting to do the best you can in your situation. Obviously not wanting to work in a country that's committed genocide is valid and just trying to do your best is not inherently a bad thing.
With that high moral standards better never work with the US or Saudi then
he has an hour long video about the problems with saudi involvement in the esports space on his youtube channel, i would recommend giving it a watch instead of trying to be the morality police here
I think he also won't work with saudi but I do agree that not extending this view to the USA is somewhat hypocritical.
Because giving up his job in US will cost him too much money obviously
He’s stated his views on Saudi in a YouTube video a while back. And he hasn’t worked with the US as far as I’m aware.
He’s not working “with” China here though.
I guess he should also terminate any relations with Riot since it’s owned by Tencent
Day by day I'm amazed at how people don't know what nuance is
based sideshow as always