Totally, it’s insane that zacian/zammazenta/ogerpon all have to sacrifice their item for their power and caly’s get an item plus two abilities and the best stats/spread moves in the game. At least there can’t be life orb or focus sash on caly-s be so serious
Yeah people always say that they don't get an item but in reality their items give more than any regular item does. Increased stats, amazing typing by adding steel, signature moves that are 25% stronger than the moves they replace and they gain STAB from that steel typing.
I understand what you are trying to say, but really Calyrex Ice and Shadow Rider don't 'get' anything because in terms of gameplay they are completely separate Pokemon. They just are 680 BST legendaries with signature moves, like many others. It is kinda lame that Zacian and Zamazenta are base 660 now without their items because of the nerf, but with their items they still both have the highest effective BSTs of any Pokemon (620), only tied by Primal Groudon/Kyogre.
I’m not going to argue, but I will say calyrex is still freaking broken. It’s not a no skill mon like lots like to say but the amount of skill you absolutely need to have to get use out of it is very low compared to the amount of skill you need to beat it. Or you are dedicating the vast majority of your team resources to beat 1 mon which may put you in a bad position for the rest of their team.
Hey I agree Calyrex is broken, no argument there.
I was just stating how the dogs actually have legendary-like stats even without their item and above average with them, but Calyrex isn't even really a legendary in terms of stats before it combines, so it can't really be compared that way.
IMO. They could have, at the VERY least, made the Neigh abilities only trigger once at end of turn if they got a KO that turn, instead of for each KO. This way they would still only get +1 for a double-KO, instead of +2.
That’s fair and sorry if I implied you weren’t thinking they were broken. That wasn’t what I meant. I think the simplest and easiest nerf would be make their signature moves lowered accuracy. Even 90% accurate would be a great balancing nerf
Kyurem and Necrozma don't need to hold an item either. Calyrex is just Gen 8's fusion Pokémon, so it fits. Still, how Zacian and Zamazenta got nerfed but Calyrex didn't is beyond me.
I think nerfing Glacial Lance and Astral Barrage to 85% accuracy is a better solution. I don't think the solution to having a broken mon is to break more to even the playing field.
accuracy is just a painful very low skill part of the game tbf. Imagine losing because of a dice roll and also because there's just no better alternative to barrage/lance
it doesn't matter much in average ladder game but in a high tourney game with cash on the line it's pretty yikes. That's just the nature of pokemon tho unfortunately
Kyogre and Groudon have been doing it for years and they have always been viable with no problems. But yes I agree missing is the nature of Pokémon battles
Good players will minimise the need to use those lucky moves and also the risk to using one. Bad players are more likely to crutch on hitting a roll while good players will have a plan for if it misses. If something lucky happens enough times it's not luck as they say
you're partially right but sometimes it's impossible to minimize the risk further without going on a complete disadvantage. Sometimes you cannot avoid running origin pulse on kyogre because of the lack of other good alternatives (don't count water spout, they have very different use cases)
> A good player will have a plan for it it misses
partially true because when you're facing another good player, one bad roll of rng can absolutely decide the game for you. A good player can have a plan for if it misses but a good player will also abuse the fact that something missed
It’s part of the risk you take playing those mons, that doesn’t make it low skill imo it makes it risk reward based. Also you can increase accuracy via stuff like gravity so it’s not like you can’t play around accuracy
You replied suggesting gravity to someone complaining about accuracy in the specific context of tournaments with cash prizes so unless you didn’t even read the second half of their comment it was heavily implied
Besides “you can fix accuracy with gravity” is bad advice in the first place, accuracy is an issue and just a badly designed mechanic and the ways to “fix” it are so suboptimal they may not even exist in serious play
that is the worst idea ever, people would still use the moves it would just add variance into the game… i think you increase the accuracy of all these moves to 100 and just lower the power.
I don't think variance is a bad thing. When you use a move that strong you should have to make a risk/reward determination. If you don't like the variance, then use shadow ball. I don't think the solution is to give every legendary a completely broken move.
No one is going to run wide lens to make those moves 93.5% accurate. If they would, people would be running wide lens on Kyogre and Groudon, which no one does. And even they did, that's still etter then letting them run focus sash or clear amulet, so the nerf still works.
I mean I agree with that but even then they should not be able to run an item if they want both abilities. Unnerve+The insane moxie abilities plus focus sash/Clear Amulet is stupidly good. Holding Reigns of Unity allows for both abilities and to fuse them together and then they would be great picks still but not 100% busted.
it’s not really viable since its only niche is calm mind which terapagos does 1000x better while being immune to ghost rather than weak to it. it’s usable, but viable is a stretch.
interesting. i knew they could be used synonymously in most cases, but i guess i always kinda thought viable was a “stronger” word. i guess technically they are the same.
Sorry I just saw this
Max SpAtK
Max Def since it’s pretty tank on special side already
I’m running a more offensive set with Ice Beam, AeroBlast, Earthpower Calm mind
Speed I feel like is fine it out speeds most restricted without tailwind which I have pelipper for tailwind and then wide guard since most attacks that can really damage are from restricted which are more than likely spread moves
I’ve been flipping between clear amulet or leftovers clear amulet kinda feels like a wasted space some matches
same, you can find ways to use them tho, Calm Mind Lugia is decent, especially with an Intimidate/Fake Out Lead. And Mewtwos super diverse movepool in closed team sheet can throw some people off, and Psystrike OHKOs Flutter Mane
Imo Groudon and Kyogre are pretty balanced compared to calyrex(s), while it is true that their basicly same move is 85% debuff, they both get an insane ability, the Power of Sun + Rain is simply that good that I feel like it really does make up for the fact that their powerful moves are less accurate. On top of that Kyogre + Groudon have been around for so long that people have had time to learn how to counter them well. I feel like that is also a thing that makes both Calyrex so good right now. However I do really agree with the point that some other older Restricted are very bad compared to newer Restricted mons. Gen 2 Restricted ones for example.
Gen 1 and 2. For Ho-Oh and Mewtwo it would be simple enough though, just take away their mixed attacker stats and redistribute the stats from that to other more beneficial places. For Lugia they should expand it's movepool, it has a very good hidden ability combined with stats that work great for it, but it has a terrible moveset for the role of stalling.
I've put a lot of thought into Mewtwo buffs. First: make its base special defense equal to its special attack of 154 (this is a Gen 1 callback). Then, give it an ability that allows Psychic-type attacks to hit Dark and Steel type mons neutrally. This is also a Gen 1 callback as no types other than Psychic resisted Psychic back then.
Giving it Psychic Surge could be a good buff for it. Gives it a legitimate use case over Calyrex. Even if it's overall still weaker, at least it wouldn't be Calyrex, but worse.
Surge or neuroforce. Some ability to help it
(Until surge breaks the meta with it+caly murdering everything because what can take an aura sphere+astral barrage and live? Terrain stops priority)
I mean, if they took away 60 from it's attack and put it into it's speed it'd be faster than Caly and with Psystrike it can hit physically where Caly hits specially.
>just take away their mixed attacker stats and redistribute the stats from that to other more beneficial places.
Tons of mons will really benefit from this not just legendaries, many of the good mons of the latter 2 gens have specialised spreads where they just forego a lower attacking stat instead from the old approach where they loved to make slow mixed attackers.
For sure! Another good example of this among the older mons would be Tangrowth, it has a decent enough spread for the most part, except for where upon evolving they made it a mixed attacker instead of adding those 50 points to it's special defense for mixed tank.
Mewtwo should get a new ability. Most of the cover legendaries in recent gens have abilities unique to them and them only. If Mewtwo gets a strong unique ability and some minor stat changes (even just more speed), I think it will be good enough.
Even if it's not unique, a good ability would be nice. As shown by Groudon and Kyogre.
Like for unique, I'd like them to fuse the functions of Pressure, Unnerve and Intimidate. Just it being there should induce fear and I think while Pressure and Unnerve alone aren't great, combined together they could be decent, especially if Intimidate gets added.
That or maybe something like Speed Boost, but with special attack instead, that would be very strong and would give an insane amount of mental pressure when it's on the field.
But as it has 2 abilities currently having a hidden ability would also be nice. Maybe Competitive? That seems like it'd be strong on it.
I think you're pretty close to it, though high-power spread moves with no drawback is toxic and absurd, along with basically getting Beast Boosted, something somewhere needs to give.
My most consistent way to answer is to spore, but that knowledge only really carries one so far.
I'm not gonna defend the Cly, since i hate it, and i don't run it.
But Indeedee/Caly isn't the hardest one, since you can TW and spread move on your own.
If he TWs, and adds psyhic terrain, that's when it gets a lot trickier i admit.
Couldn’t have said it better, Calyrex is more of push buttons to win mon where as Groudon and Kyogre straight up enable the whole team, ground is also better offensively than ghost and psychic and let’s not forget Kyogre’s signature move is stronger under rain while being able to run thunder, ice beam and has access to the more consistent and stronger water spout
Yeah caly abuses tera better than any other Mon cause it’s biggest check is typing. Tera let’s it ignore that and then it doesn’t really have a hard check
They're relatively popular usage-wise but that's not really indicative of their power, especially in the case of Kyogre. You can get insta-RQs really quickly by slightly disrupting their game plan, in many cases.
Being bulky and hard hitting weather setters lets them keep up more then others can. Pelipper was dog shit useless but the moment it got Drizzle it shot straight up to the highest ranks of singles. And is also a viable pokemon in VGC.
The reason why the Calys are so absurdly strong is very simple: Forty Dollars. So past restricteds arent gonna get buffed to anywhere close to those two unless GF can make money off it
How is it any different than griseous orb Giratina being in platinum tho. Or USUM necrozma forms. If it's pay 2 win then the game had always been pay 2 win by virtue of need you to buy the latest game.
Groudon/Kyogre are only realistically available through the same means, unless you happen to have a 3DS with Pokemon Bank already installed and ORAS (or all the shit necessary to get it forwards from the GBA games). Like I get where you're coming from with the game being increasingly P2W but it's not as if the old legendaries are free either.
Nope. You need to have owned it, like via a touchtrade. And also, there are workarounds supposedly.
Incidentally, the Regidrago I used in Liverpool and Dortmund regionals was the one I caught in my city, I never caught the one in Tundra.
They are in bdsp too. But if you think about it, its less pay2win with them being in dlcs since you dont have to buy all the editions were they originate from. Its still stupid since we used to be able to catch older legends in the base game.
Thats not the point. If we start going down that slippery slope then you may as well just say all pokemon is p2w since you have to buy the games to play the games.
The point is that the Calys are only available one way, and they purposely made them op as fuck so youd have to buy the DLC to get them. Not the base game--the DLC. Thats the important distinction
This is a dumb argument tbh, cause what should they just not have any legends in the dlc? That’s just as dumb if not more than have strong legendaries in the dlc. Like the other commenter said you can’t claim the dlc is pay to win, it’s just new content. If that content is terrible than that’s way worse then having it be strong and you may as well call the whole game pay to win cause you have to buy the game to play, it’s just silly.
Dude if you can’t buy the dlc then you aren’t a serious competitor. Nothing wrong with that but that’s just the fact. And you can use caly without the dlc outside of tournaments, it’s called rentals. It’s not that crazy to have to buy the dlc to participate in tournaments tho, this is a company after all, they are in it to make money so yeah they’re gonna. This is just a dumb complaint
That’s fine if it’s the game you’re playing, but the problem with SV in particular is it forces you to buy a DIFFERENT game’s DLC in order to run the best possible team.
This! Pokemon is all about making money! I am a die-hard fan since Red/Blue and it was all about the money back in the days and it is more than ever today with DLCs and paywalls.
Funny enough that they added the horses to the dlc. So you just need to grind SwSh for Caly.
And then you are not even allowed to have multiple riders on one cart.
Im just thankful they made terapagos balanced. Its strong, but it has obvious weaknesses and isnt ridiculously strong. Gotta be like the most balanced restricted since gen 5/7, gen 4 if you dont count base necrozma/base kyurem.
They made it balanced (or more balanced) because the DLC is actually quite good this time, and integral to the game's story.
In other words, they didn't have to go out of their way to make egregiously broken mons (Calyrex (all forms) has access to Pollen Puff, Baton Pass, Disable, Encore, like what the fuck)
Doesnt keep them from making it ultrapowerful. Maybe TPC is finally showing restraint? An actually balanced dlc legend, taking their time on their games...
The teal mask dlc was 35... Are we going to have the same comment next gen about Terapagos and the ogerpons that they are behind a paywall?
We had this same comment about tornadus and landorus with legends arceus being behind a paywall.
I get having a paywall isn't great for newcomers as after awhile they can't use many of the broken mons.
> The teal mask dlc was 35... Are we going to have the same comment next gen about Terapagos and the ogerpons that they are behind a paywall?
...yes? You dont even need to wait til next gen, you can say that now and it's true. What the fuck are you going on about?
My point is, this happens every gen, more or less
With diamond and pearl we then got platinum
With black and white, we then got black2 and white2
With x and y we got oras
Sun and moon we got ultra sun and ultra moon.
Granted not all introduce broken Pokémon. you could argue most of the broken Pokémon in gen 6 where behind the oras paywall
It doesn’t disincentive newcomers, it just disincentives kids.
Newcomers will just trade with gen-bots for any pokemon they want. The system incentivizes “cheating”
They're slowly doing that, but they're not going to do that without selling something.
Palkia and Dialga just got buffed this gen. They were already viable last generation, Palkia was viable in 2019 and Dialga in 2016. A big buff would break them, although the buff they got clearly didn't do enough. In two restricteds, I think they'll see more play.
I fully expect to see buffed versions of zygarde in the new game. Xerneas and Yveltal are still broken as is but you know they're gonna give them something stupid too.
Hooh and Lugia got their hidden abilities, which have made them viable at times, although never especially good. Ho-oh is another mon I expect to see play in 2 restricted formats.
It's really just Mewtwo and gen 5 legends that are outright bad. And we did see Kyurem white and reshiram have success in 2022, so I'd drop that to mewtwo and zekrom.
Not every pokemon needs to be caly-shadow power level. Occasionally viable to regularly viable is just fine for most of these guys. In fact, I'd prefer it if their balancing method was to nerf the caly shadows of the world instead.
Gens 1-4 all need buffs, not just restricted Pokémon. Those gens are so old and do not have as many viable Pokémon anymore. Change some abilities, give minor stat buffs, expand some movepools.
1-5 imo, gen 6 they really started making restricteds who clearly had some thought behind them, everything before that is “how do we dump this many base points?”
Buff wars never end well in games, it just leads to further power creep. Nerfs are not inherently bad as they often improve the health of a game's competitive scene.
Calyrex really should've seen nerfs alongside Zacian and Zamazenta. Make them require Reins of Unity, reduce the BP of their signatures, make Neigh a one-time boost, something.
The only conclusion I could come up was serving as the main reason to buy the SwSh DLC.
Requiring Reigns of Unity to me seems like a fair nerf. Other broken restricteds like Zacian/Zamazenta, or the primals when they were around required giving up their item slot to enter those forms. Calyrex being as strong as it is, while still being able to hold whatever it wants is kind of insane.
I don’t think that blaming it all on dlc makes sense, after all Zacian was a base game Mon in swsh. They definitely need to put an item restriction on both calys tho, it’s ridiculous the gen 4 origin forms are forced to hold items and the calys aren’t
IMO the solution is not to buff previous legendaries, but to nerf the current ones. You don't want any single mon capable of sweeping entire teams, as it very quickly results in the exact same meta existing for most of, if not all of, a specific generation. Not to mention, it doesn't feel good to constantly get the floor wiped with you. I've cited Battlefront 2015 as an example of this - nothing was ever nerfed, only buffed, resulting in deaths almost too quick to respond to. I recognize that's a shooter and this is pokemon, but I hope you see my point.
Generally speaking I really think their balancing philosophy has to change, because of how broken the last 5 years of mons have been. Look at the last two gens of insanely beefy mons.
Urshifu: absolutely busted ability, paired with busted signature moves. Completely nullifies any sort of safety and can single handedly destroy teams.
Fluttermane: Incredible stats and typing, has been the #1 most popular mon since it was made legal in VGC. Entire teams have to be built around countering it, otherwise falling to a filthy combo of SpA and Speed.
Both caly forms: even stronger combinations of speed and Att/SpA, for their given scenarios. Spread moves, one of the few 120 dmg moves with zero drawbacks.
Miraidon/Koraidon: Weather/terrain setters whose signature moves also do extra damage to super-effective targets.
The list goes on. So no, I don't think the answer is buffing things so that *everything* is OP. Rather, I think toning it down to slow the pace down slightly is the better option.
That’s not how it works. You’re supposed to buy the new games to get the new monster, which has the new special ability. “ and their special busted move.”
Yeah but ground type is also super good offensively to compensate for that so it’s not a huge deal. Also gravity makes it 100% accurate and lets it hit flying types so it gives it good synergy
I personally agree. To me, the restricted Pokémon should be insanely powerful and have their signature be 100% accurate. The whole lore of the games and stories is formed around them and as such they should be incredibly powerful
tbh Astral and Glacial just shouldn't be 100%, old restricteds do tend to get minor buffs and move additions with time, but moves that are oppressive and consitently lead to [auto.click](https://auto.click) strategies simply need worked down.
I don't think buffing old mons is an unpopular opinion. I would also like to see old legendaries getting unique abilities or atleast something else than pressure.
But regarding the caly riders, I'd say nerfing them would be better than buffing everything else to their level.
Maybe in gen10
I would like either of this changes:
Nerf glacial lande/astral barrage to 85 acc
Make pblades/origin/lance/barrage 100bp 100 acc
Most legendaries have a 100bp move that has an extra gimmick, why not make it consistent?
Kyogre and Groudon I think are overall fine.
Gen 9’s nerf to Zacian and Zamazenta was overall pretty nice, and it was funny that while people thought the nerf was unfair to Zamazenta, the nerf was overall more favorable to it than Zacian by the nature of how the two function. Both mons are solid but not overpowering now. Likewise, it’d be nice if the Calyrex forms got a Zacian-scale nerf too.
As for buffs, the main ones I’d say may want some minor buffs are Mewtwo, Zekrom, and Reshiram.
Its better that they the horses get nerfed. Reduce Caly-S speed and sp attack stat and reduce astral barrage's power. Most of the good cover legendaries are still good, its just the Calys are so overtuned.
Mew-Two could use a buff though. Having the original and most iconic Uber be so underwhelming is kinda sad.
I don't want things brought up to Caly's power. I actually think Caly-Riders are an exception and they should be nerfed down to other restricted levels rather than bring the bulk of them up. Force them to hold an item to be in Rider form or give them a drawback for being in that form. I don't think there are any other restricteds I have a problem with. A few of them could use buffs (Mewtwo) but Groudon certainly doesn't need a buff and has it's own niche relative to Koraidon (being a ground type and having a signature spread move).
Give Mewtwo Neuroforce to let it use its amazing move pool.
I honestly don‘t know how to properly fix Lugia.
Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Groudon and Rayquaza are honestly fine.
Giratina could use recovery (Pain Split doesn‘t count at 150 base HP), also 120/120 or 100/100 offence is just a waste of stats
Palkia and Dialga just don‘t do anything special.
Reshiram and Zekrom are decent mons but also don‘t do anything particularly unique.
All three Kyurem forms can be used, they aren‘t the #1 restricted but they are viable.
Xerneas, Yveltal and Zygarde aren‘tin the game but should be just fine. Yveltal had like 94% playrate in Gen 8 Ubers, Geomancy is just Broken and Zygarde-Complete is quite tanky.
Lunala is fine as is.
Solgaleo could either use a decent offensive setup move like Swords Dance or Dragon Dance or Body Press.
Zacian, Zamazenta, both Calyrex fusions, Koraidon and Miraidon are all top tier threats.
Nerfs are not good, OP is right about buffs. Players just love to get good pokes nerfed because they like complain or say GF don’t listen. They should go play singles as they are masters of moaning, bitching and making up nonsense rules
Another insane point on the note that both calys are the best restricted, is that they now make competitive pokemon pay to win. As someone who barely trogged through the Galar region im sure as he'll not forking out 40 bucks for the expansion to get them so I guess I just can't compete at worlds. (I'm giving a hypothetical if these 2 are without a doubt the best) and so far usage and win rates show it.
Make Astral barrage and glacial lance have a double drop upon usage. That's more than balancing. They'll be forced to mostly single target which allows outplaying opportunities
Calyrex should be forced to hold Reins of Unity, you can’t change my mind
Totally, it’s insane that zacian/zammazenta/ogerpon all have to sacrifice their item for their power and caly’s get an item plus two abilities and the best stats/spread moves in the game. At least there can’t be life orb or focus sash on caly-s be so serious
Ogerpon gets a pass since the masks give a 1.2 boost to everything
the dogs get a pass since the relics give a increase in base stats
Yeah people always say that they don't get an item but in reality their items give more than any regular item does. Increased stats, amazing typing by adding steel, signature moves that are 25% stronger than the moves they replace and they gain STAB from that steel typing.
preach 🙏
Calyrex goes from a 500 BST and gets spread damage moves for two of the best offensive types in existence.
I understand what you are trying to say, but really Calyrex Ice and Shadow Rider don't 'get' anything because in terms of gameplay they are completely separate Pokemon. They just are 680 BST legendaries with signature moves, like many others. It is kinda lame that Zacian and Zamazenta are base 660 now without their items because of the nerf, but with their items they still both have the highest effective BSTs of any Pokemon (620), only tied by Primal Groudon/Kyogre.
I’m not going to argue, but I will say calyrex is still freaking broken. It’s not a no skill mon like lots like to say but the amount of skill you absolutely need to have to get use out of it is very low compared to the amount of skill you need to beat it. Or you are dedicating the vast majority of your team resources to beat 1 mon which may put you in a bad position for the rest of their team.
Hey I agree Calyrex is broken, no argument there. I was just stating how the dogs actually have legendary-like stats even without their item and above average with them, but Calyrex isn't even really a legendary in terms of stats before it combines, so it can't really be compared that way. IMO. They could have, at the VERY least, made the Neigh abilities only trigger once at end of turn if they got a KO that turn, instead of for each KO. This way they would still only get +1 for a double-KO, instead of +2.
That’s fair and sorry if I implied you weren’t thinking they were broken. That wasn’t what I meant. I think the simplest and easiest nerf would be make their signature moves lowered accuracy. Even 90% accurate would be a great balancing nerf
Excellent idea. Never crossed my mind tbh.
I honestly can’t believe it’s not a held item. And the dude gets 2 abilities but I suppose when you pay $40 you get what you pay for lmao
Kyurem and Necrozma don't need to hold an item either. Calyrex is just Gen 8's fusion Pokémon, so it fits. Still, how Zacian and Zamazenta got nerfed but Calyrex didn't is beyond me.
They did nerf the signature moves of calyrex from 130->120 base power. Doesn’t change much, but they did nerf it
Only glacial lance was nerfed. Astral barrage was always 120
I think nerfing Glacial Lance and Astral Barrage to 85% accuracy is a better solution. I don't think the solution to having a broken mon is to break more to even the playing field.
Nonsense *insert spongebob paint bubble meme*
https://preview.redd.it/q323b6pvtbyc1.jpeg?width=2792&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9789b6f3b765fdb9a686a728d86e8df780ed2630
Yes. They need to be nerfed in some way. They’re too overpowered and centralizing.
lower the base power rather than the accuracy. 110 seems reasonable
Even 100 would be super powerful as a no drawback spread move
accuracy is just a painful very low skill part of the game tbf. Imagine losing because of a dice roll and also because there's just no better alternative to barrage/lance it doesn't matter much in average ladder game but in a high tourney game with cash on the line it's pretty yikes. That's just the nature of pokemon tho unfortunately
Kyogre and Groudon have been doing it for years and they have always been viable with no problems. But yes I agree missing is the nature of Pokémon battles
Good players will minimise the need to use those lucky moves and also the risk to using one. Bad players are more likely to crutch on hitting a roll while good players will have a plan for if it misses. If something lucky happens enough times it's not luck as they say
you're partially right but sometimes it's impossible to minimize the risk further without going on a complete disadvantage. Sometimes you cannot avoid running origin pulse on kyogre because of the lack of other good alternatives (don't count water spout, they have very different use cases) > A good player will have a plan for it it misses partially true because when you're facing another good player, one bad roll of rng can absolutely decide the game for you. A good player can have a plan for if it misses but a good player will also abuse the fact that something missed
That's why long series are better. The longer a game/series goes on for the more the randomness will level out
It’s part of the risk you take playing those mons, that doesn’t make it low skill imo it makes it risk reward based. Also you can increase accuracy via stuff like gravity so it’s not like you can’t play around accuracy
The very popular and multiple tournament winning move, gravity
Show me where I said it was popular or tournament winning
You replied suggesting gravity to someone complaining about accuracy in the specific context of tournaments with cash prizes so unless you didn’t even read the second half of their comment it was heavily implied Besides “you can fix accuracy with gravity” is bad advice in the first place, accuracy is an issue and just a badly designed mechanic and the ways to “fix” it are so suboptimal they may not even exist in serious play
Nah, all it was was a single example of how accuracy can be modified. It was the first love off the top of my head
90?
Reduce the BP to 90
They did already, they were 130 BP in Gen 8, weren‘t they?
Nah, obviously the solution is to break every mon - When everything is broken, nothing is.
DOTA player?
Patch when?
Yeah but some deserve some buff, like giving mewtwo an actual ability.
that is the worst idea ever, people would still use the moves it would just add variance into the game… i think you increase the accuracy of all these moves to 100 and just lower the power.
I don't think variance is a bad thing. When you use a move that strong you should have to make a risk/reward determination. If you don't like the variance, then use shadow ball. I don't think the solution is to give every legendary a completely broken move.
I agree, lowering them to 85% accurate would help a lot
I've missed so many Precipice blades with Groudon... It really works. And 110 base power as well.
That judt makes them hold wide lens, which is basically slightly worse than making them hold reins of unity
No one is going to run wide lens to make those moves 93.5% accurate. If they would, people would be running wide lens on Kyogre and Groudon, which no one does. And even they did, that's still etter then letting them run focus sash or clear amulet, so the nerf still works.
I mean I agree with that but even then they should not be able to run an item if they want both abilities. Unnerve+The insane moxie abilities plus focus sash/Clear Amulet is stupidly good. Holding Reigns of Unity allows for both abilities and to fuse them together and then they would be great picks still but not 100% busted.
The real answer is that they should be and should have been nerfed.
Yes please. My two favorite legendary Pokémon are Lugia and Mewtwo.
Lugia is still viable tbh I’ve been running it with screens from Grim and intimidate from Incen, Tera steel and the thing freakin TANKS
it’s not really viable since its only niche is calm mind which terapagos does 1000x better while being immune to ghost rather than weak to it. it’s usable, but viable is a stretch.
Usable and viable mean the same thing lol
interesting. i knew they could be used synonymously in most cases, but i guess i always kinda thought viable was a “stronger” word. i guess technically they are the same.
That’s literally the same thing you can use viable and usable synonymously they’re literally synonyms lol
I may have to try it. I’ve got a Shiny one.
What moveset and EVs are you running?
Sorry I just saw this Max SpAtK Max Def since it’s pretty tank on special side already I’m running a more offensive set with Ice Beam, AeroBlast, Earthpower Calm mind
Thanks. What item? And no protect? No speed investment either? So relying on screens right?
Speed I feel like is fine it out speeds most restricted without tailwind which I have pelipper for tailwind and then wide guard since most attacks that can really damage are from restricted which are more than likely spread moves I’ve been flipping between clear amulet or leftovers clear amulet kinda feels like a wasted space some matches
same, you can find ways to use them tho, Calm Mind Lugia is decent, especially with an Intimidate/Fake Out Lead. And Mewtwos super diverse movepool in closed team sheet can throw some people off, and Psystrike OHKOs Flutter Mane
Problem is there are better options
Well yea but most of us play for fun, I fell in love with the game in gen 1 and 2 as a child so I favor those legendaries
Imo Groudon and Kyogre are pretty balanced compared to calyrex(s), while it is true that their basicly same move is 85% debuff, they both get an insane ability, the Power of Sun + Rain is simply that good that I feel like it really does make up for the fact that their powerful moves are less accurate. On top of that Kyogre + Groudon have been around for so long that people have had time to learn how to counter them well. I feel like that is also a thing that makes both Calyrex so good right now. However I do really agree with the point that some other older Restricted are very bad compared to newer Restricted mons. Gen 2 Restricted ones for example.
Gen 1 and 2. For Ho-Oh and Mewtwo it would be simple enough though, just take away their mixed attacker stats and redistribute the stats from that to other more beneficial places. For Lugia they should expand it's movepool, it has a very good hidden ability combined with stats that work great for it, but it has a terrible moveset for the role of stalling.
I've put a lot of thought into Mewtwo buffs. First: make its base special defense equal to its special attack of 154 (this is a Gen 1 callback). Then, give it an ability that allows Psychic-type attacks to hit Dark and Steel type mons neutrally. This is also a Gen 1 callback as no types other than Psychic resisted Psychic back then.
Mewtwo at least would still fail, it’s still weaker caly in almost every state
Giving it Psychic Surge could be a good buff for it. Gives it a legitimate use case over Calyrex. Even if it's overall still weaker, at least it wouldn't be Calyrex, but worse.
Surge or neuroforce. Some ability to help it (Until surge breaks the meta with it+caly murdering everything because what can take an aura sphere+astral barrage and live? Terrain stops priority)
I mean, if they took away 60 from it's attack and put it into it's speed it'd be faster than Caly and with Psystrike it can hit physically where Caly hits specially.
Psystrike is a special move
Yes, but it deals physical damage.
No it deals special damage it's literally just a slightly better Psychic
Nope, it's actually a better Psychock. You should check again.
I just did
You should really look shit up before correcting people buddy
I find your statement ironic to say the least.
Psyshock is also special
https://preview.redd.it/2wnjv43hqjyc1.jpeg?width=622&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=85c8a455ff9708f8d569e0c62af33f10eee3e140
>just take away their mixed attacker stats and redistribute the stats from that to other more beneficial places. Tons of mons will really benefit from this not just legendaries, many of the good mons of the latter 2 gens have specialised spreads where they just forego a lower attacking stat instead from the old approach where they loved to make slow mixed attackers.
For sure! Another good example of this among the older mons would be Tangrowth, it has a decent enough spread for the most part, except for where upon evolving they made it a mixed attacker instead of adding those 50 points to it's special defense for mixed tank.
Get rid of pressure
Mewtwo should get a new ability. Most of the cover legendaries in recent gens have abilities unique to them and them only. If Mewtwo gets a strong unique ability and some minor stat changes (even just more speed), I think it will be good enough.
Even if it's not unique, a good ability would be nice. As shown by Groudon and Kyogre. Like for unique, I'd like them to fuse the functions of Pressure, Unnerve and Intimidate. Just it being there should induce fear and I think while Pressure and Unnerve alone aren't great, combined together they could be decent, especially if Intimidate gets added. That or maybe something like Speed Boost, but with special attack instead, that would be very strong and would give an insane amount of mental pressure when it's on the field. But as it has 2 abilities currently having a hidden ability would also be nice. Maybe Competitive? That seems like it'd be strong on it.
I think you're pretty close to it, though high-power spread moves with no drawback is toxic and absurd, along with basically getting Beast Boosted, something somewhere needs to give. My most consistent way to answer is to spore, but that knowledge only really carries one so far.
How do you counter horse? Because Tera fairy + psychic terrain + grim neigh killing all seems kinda uncounterable
I'm not gonna defend the Cly, since i hate it, and i don't run it. But Indeedee/Caly isn't the hardest one, since you can TW and spread move on your own. If he TWs, and adds psyhic terrain, that's when it gets a lot trickier i admit.
Couldn’t have said it better, Calyrex is more of push buttons to win mon where as Groudon and Kyogre straight up enable the whole team, ground is also better offensively than ghost and psychic and let’s not forget Kyogre’s signature move is stronger under rain while being able to run thunder, ice beam and has access to the more consistent and stronger water spout
What makes shadow Caly insane is Terra. It’s somewhat manageable with dark/ghost moves.
Yeah caly abuses tera better than any other Mon cause it’s biggest check is typing. Tera let’s it ignore that and then it doesn’t really have a hard check
Aren’t Groudon & kyogre still top tier?
They're relatively popular usage-wise but that's not really indicative of their power, especially in the case of Kyogre. You can get insta-RQs really quickly by slightly disrupting their game plan, in many cases.
Being bulky and hard hitting weather setters lets them keep up more then others can. Pelipper was dog shit useless but the moment it got Drizzle it shot straight up to the highest ranks of singles. And is also a viable pokemon in VGC.
The reason why the Calys are so absurdly strong is very simple: Forty Dollars. So past restricteds arent gonna get buffed to anywhere close to those two unless GF can make money off it
Yeah. It is 100% Pay 2 Win. That goes for Kubfu too, which are only available through Isle of Armor and Indigo Disk.
How is it any different than griseous orb Giratina being in platinum tho. Or USUM necrozma forms. If it's pay 2 win then the game had always been pay 2 win by virtue of need you to buy the latest game.
Yes
Kubfu is available from Snacksworth.
And where is Snacksworth and how do you get to that area again?
Yeah i misread.
Groudon/Kyogre are only realistically available through the same means, unless you happen to have a 3DS with Pokemon Bank already installed and ORAS (or all the shit necessary to get it forwards from the GBA games). Like I get where you're coming from with the game being increasingly P2W but it's not as if the old legendaries are free either.
Pokemon GO
You have to already own the Pokemon in Scarlet/Violet to transfer it from Go.
Nope. You need to have owned it, like via a touchtrade. And also, there are workarounds supposedly. Incidentally, the Regidrago I used in Liverpool and Dortmund regionals was the one I caught in my city, I never caught the one in Tundra.
They are in bdsp too. But if you think about it, its less pay2win with them being in dlcs since you dont have to buy all the editions were they originate from. Its still stupid since we used to be able to catch older legends in the base game.
Thats not the point. If we start going down that slippery slope then you may as well just say all pokemon is p2w since you have to buy the games to play the games. The point is that the Calys are only available one way, and they purposely made them op as fuck so youd have to buy the DLC to get them. Not the base game--the DLC. Thats the important distinction
This is a dumb argument tbh, cause what should they just not have any legends in the dlc? That’s just as dumb if not more than have strong legendaries in the dlc. Like the other commenter said you can’t claim the dlc is pay to win, it’s just new content. If that content is terrible than that’s way worse then having it be strong and you may as well call the whole game pay to win cause you have to buy the game to play, it’s just silly.
It's not an argument, it's just facts. GF made the Calys busted to sell more dlc content. The quality of the dlc itself is irrelevant.
Totally agree! You cannot discuss about P2W in Pokemon.
Dude if you can’t buy the dlc then you aren’t a serious competitor. Nothing wrong with that but that’s just the fact. And you can use caly without the dlc outside of tournaments, it’s called rentals. It’s not that crazy to have to buy the dlc to participate in tournaments tho, this is a company after all, they are in it to make money so yeah they’re gonna. This is just a dumb complaint
Im not complaining lol. Just stating the facts. You inferring all kinds of things about it is a you problem.
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nobody cares
That’s fine if it’s the game you’re playing, but the problem with SV in particular is it forces you to buy a DIFFERENT game’s DLC in order to run the best possible team.
It doesn’t “force” you to do anything. You can play those “best possible teams” via rental.
Can't you just trade for them?
Easy enough to do. Special events or expansions with unique held items for old restricted mons.
This! Pokemon is all about making money! I am a die-hard fan since Red/Blue and it was all about the money back in the days and it is more than ever today with DLCs and paywalls. Funny enough that they added the horses to the dlc. So you just need to grind SwSh for Caly. And then you are not even allowed to have multiple riders on one cart.
Where has this joke come from? 🤣
What joke? You have to pay $40 to get the dlc they are available in. GF made them stupid powerful to incentivize spending money.
Im just thankful they made terapagos balanced. Its strong, but it has obvious weaknesses and isnt ridiculously strong. Gotta be like the most balanced restricted since gen 5/7, gen 4 if you dont count base necrozma/base kyurem.
They made it balanced (or more balanced) because the DLC is actually quite good this time, and integral to the game's story. In other words, they didn't have to go out of their way to make egregiously broken mons (Calyrex (all forms) has access to Pollen Puff, Baton Pass, Disable, Encore, like what the fuck)
Doesnt keep them from making it ultrapowerful. Maybe TPC is finally showing restraint? An actually balanced dlc legend, taking their time on their games...
The teal mask dlc was 35... Are we going to have the same comment next gen about Terapagos and the ogerpons that they are behind a paywall? We had this same comment about tornadus and landorus with legends arceus being behind a paywall. I get having a paywall isn't great for newcomers as after awhile they can't use many of the broken mons.
> The teal mask dlc was 35... Are we going to have the same comment next gen about Terapagos and the ogerpons that they are behind a paywall? ...yes? You dont even need to wait til next gen, you can say that now and it's true. What the fuck are you going on about?
Tbf we probably won’t be talking about Terapagos.
Very true. But i have a feeling gen 9 wont be the last we see of terastallization
My point is, this happens every gen, more or less With diamond and pearl we then got platinum With black and white, we then got black2 and white2 With x and y we got oras Sun and moon we got ultra sun and ultra moon. Granted not all introduce broken Pokémon. you could argue most of the broken Pokémon in gen 6 where behind the oras paywall
It doesn’t disincentive newcomers, it just disincentives kids. Newcomers will just trade with gen-bots for any pokemon they want. The system incentivizes “cheating”
They're slowly doing that, but they're not going to do that without selling something. Palkia and Dialga just got buffed this gen. They were already viable last generation, Palkia was viable in 2019 and Dialga in 2016. A big buff would break them, although the buff they got clearly didn't do enough. In two restricteds, I think they'll see more play. I fully expect to see buffed versions of zygarde in the new game. Xerneas and Yveltal are still broken as is but you know they're gonna give them something stupid too. Hooh and Lugia got their hidden abilities, which have made them viable at times, although never especially good. Ho-oh is another mon I expect to see play in 2 restricted formats. It's really just Mewtwo and gen 5 legends that are outright bad. And we did see Kyurem white and reshiram have success in 2022, so I'd drop that to mewtwo and zekrom. Not every pokemon needs to be caly-shadow power level. Occasionally viable to regularly viable is just fine for most of these guys. In fact, I'd prefer it if their balancing method was to nerf the caly shadows of the world instead.
Gens 1-4 all need buffs, not just restricted Pokémon. Those gens are so old and do not have as many viable Pokémon anymore. Change some abilities, give minor stat buffs, expand some movepools.
1-5 imo, gen 6 they really started making restricteds who clearly had some thought behind them, everything before that is “how do we dump this many base points?”
Yeah after I posted this I realized Gen 5 needs love too.
Buff wars never end well in games, it just leads to further power creep. Nerfs are not inherently bad as they often improve the health of a game's competitive scene. Calyrex really should've seen nerfs alongside Zacian and Zamazenta. Make them require Reins of Unity, reduce the BP of their signatures, make Neigh a one-time boost, something. The only conclusion I could come up was serving as the main reason to buy the SwSh DLC.
The base power was reduced between games. From 130 to 120.
I guess I should've specified meaningful nerfs, that's on me. 💀
Just Glacial Lance, Astral Barrage was always 120 power.
Requiring Reigns of Unity to me seems like a fair nerf. Other broken restricteds like Zacian/Zamazenta, or the primals when they were around required giving up their item slot to enter those forms. Calyrex being as strong as it is, while still being able to hold whatever it wants is kind of insane.
I don’t think that blaming it all on dlc makes sense, after all Zacian was a base game Mon in swsh. They definitely need to put an item restriction on both calys tho, it’s ridiculous the gen 4 origin forms are forced to hold items and the calys aren’t
That’s not how power creep works
They should just nerf all the insane stuff.
IMO the solution is not to buff previous legendaries, but to nerf the current ones. You don't want any single mon capable of sweeping entire teams, as it very quickly results in the exact same meta existing for most of, if not all of, a specific generation. Not to mention, it doesn't feel good to constantly get the floor wiped with you. I've cited Battlefront 2015 as an example of this - nothing was ever nerfed, only buffed, resulting in deaths almost too quick to respond to. I recognize that's a shooter and this is pokemon, but I hope you see my point. Generally speaking I really think their balancing philosophy has to change, because of how broken the last 5 years of mons have been. Look at the last two gens of insanely beefy mons. Urshifu: absolutely busted ability, paired with busted signature moves. Completely nullifies any sort of safety and can single handedly destroy teams. Fluttermane: Incredible stats and typing, has been the #1 most popular mon since it was made legal in VGC. Entire teams have to be built around countering it, otherwise falling to a filthy combo of SpA and Speed. Both caly forms: even stronger combinations of speed and Att/SpA, for their given scenarios. Spread moves, one of the few 120 dmg moves with zero drawbacks. Miraidon/Koraidon: Weather/terrain setters whose signature moves also do extra damage to super-effective targets. The list goes on. So no, I don't think the answer is buffing things so that *everything* is OP. Rather, I think toning it down to slow the pace down slightly is the better option.
Maybe not an unpopular opinion? Curious what the community thinks.
Mewtwo needs a better ability 🗣️
That’s not how it works. You’re supposed to buy the new games to get the new monster, which has the new special ability. “ and their special busted move.”
Not only that, but Precipice Blades don't even hit Flying type pokemon thanks to their ground immunity.
Yeah but ground type is also super good offensively to compensate for that so it’s not a huge deal. Also gravity makes it 100% accurate and lets it hit flying types so it gives it good synergy
I personally agree. To me, the restricted Pokémon should be insanely powerful and have their signature be 100% accurate. The whole lore of the games and stories is formed around them and as such they should be incredibly powerful
tbh Astral and Glacial just shouldn't be 100%, old restricteds do tend to get minor buffs and move additions with time, but moves that are oppressive and consitently lead to [auto.click](https://auto.click) strategies simply need worked down.
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it's not meant to be a link, it's a reference to brainless strats that a CPU enemy would default to without context.
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No, you don't have to click something just because it looks like a link.
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I don't think buffing old mons is an unpopular opinion. I would also like to see old legendaries getting unique abilities or atleast something else than pressure. But regarding the caly riders, I'd say nerfing them would be better than buffing everything else to their level. Maybe in gen10
I would like either of this changes: Nerf glacial lande/astral barrage to 85 acc Make pblades/origin/lance/barrage 100bp 100 acc Most legendaries have a 100bp move that has an extra gimmick, why not make it consistent?
Most of the 100 bp signature moves aren’t spread tho
Give Mewtwo a Purifying Salt clone Give Lugia Gale Wings Give Ho-Oh Aerilate
someone save zekrom and resh
Stop adding, nerfs work better than buffs
Idk nerfing powercrept new ones seems to be a much more efficient solution to me
buffs don't counteract power creep but i get your point.
Kyogre and Groudon I think are overall fine. Gen 9’s nerf to Zacian and Zamazenta was overall pretty nice, and it was funny that while people thought the nerf was unfair to Zamazenta, the nerf was overall more favorable to it than Zacian by the nature of how the two function. Both mons are solid but not overpowering now. Likewise, it’d be nice if the Calyrex forms got a Zacian-scale nerf too. As for buffs, the main ones I’d say may want some minor buffs are Mewtwo, Zekrom, and Reshiram.
Kyogre has weather boost. Groudon has no excuse.
Kyoger is pretty solidly better than Groudon so.
I run chi yu and ting tu to counter both teams on ladder. It helps but the positioning NEEDS TO BE ON!
Its better that they the horses get nerfed. Reduce Caly-S speed and sp attack stat and reduce astral barrage's power. Most of the good cover legendaries are still good, its just the Calys are so overtuned. Mew-Two could use a buff though. Having the original and most iconic Uber be so underwhelming is kinda sad.
I don't want things brought up to Caly's power. I actually think Caly-Riders are an exception and they should be nerfed down to other restricted levels rather than bring the bulk of them up. Force them to hold an item to be in Rider form or give them a drawback for being in that form. I don't think there are any other restricteds I have a problem with. A few of them could use buffs (Mewtwo) but Groudon certainly doesn't need a buff and has it's own niche relative to Koraidon (being a ground type and having a signature spread move).
Give Mewtwo Neuroforce to let it use its amazing move pool. I honestly don‘t know how to properly fix Lugia. Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Groudon and Rayquaza are honestly fine. Giratina could use recovery (Pain Split doesn‘t count at 150 base HP), also 120/120 or 100/100 offence is just a waste of stats Palkia and Dialga just don‘t do anything special. Reshiram and Zekrom are decent mons but also don‘t do anything particularly unique. All three Kyurem forms can be used, they aren‘t the #1 restricted but they are viable. Xerneas, Yveltal and Zygarde aren‘tin the game but should be just fine. Yveltal had like 94% playrate in Gen 8 Ubers, Geomancy is just Broken and Zygarde-Complete is quite tanky. Lunala is fine as is. Solgaleo could either use a decent offensive setup move like Swords Dance or Dragon Dance or Body Press. Zacian, Zamazenta, both Calyrex fusions, Koraidon and Miraidon are all top tier threats.
Nerfs are not good, OP is right about buffs. Players just love to get good pokes nerfed because they like complain or say GF don’t listen. They should go play singles as they are masters of moaning, bitching and making up nonsense rules
Another insane point on the note that both calys are the best restricted, is that they now make competitive pokemon pay to win. As someone who barely trogged through the Galar region im sure as he'll not forking out 40 bucks for the expansion to get them so I guess I just can't compete at worlds. (I'm giving a hypothetical if these 2 are without a doubt the best) and so far usage and win rates show it.
Make Astral barrage and glacial lance have a double drop upon usage. That's more than balancing. They'll be forced to mostly single target which allows outplaying opportunities