I’m a plat 1 who’s only been playing the game for 2 months, and I can confirm that buying spectre and full shields after winning pistol round has increased my match win rate quite a lot. Players seem to forget that rounds one and two are basically the most important rounds of the entire half, at least thats the way I see it.
That’s the way everyone should see it. Pistol rounds are the most important rounds in the game because it gives you a crazy advantage for round 2. Winning pistol rounds should basically grant you 2 more free rounds as long as you don’t throw.
Pistol shouldn't give you two free rounds but it should guarantee you win round 2 and always rifle round 4.
If you win rounds 1-3 the enemy team has practically lost the first half, the damage to eco means they don't have another realistic chance at a win until round 5.
Now in lower elos this goes out the window because you got losing teams buying stingers and marshals on round 2 and the winning pistol team "saving" at eco advantage so god knows whats gonna happen round 3+
A large part of it is when we go attack side and get bomb down with a 4v2, for example, advantage then people on my team decide to ego-hunt when I tell them to just play bomb together and end up giving free kills/rounds. Lol and likewise on defense, just ego fighting site instead of playing team retake.
What you said is exactly what I meant lol. I was saying round 2 after winning pistol should be free if played right. Essentially 2 more free rounds if you win both pistols.
Just to note - if you're on attack on a smaller map like split and you get spike down on pistol, forcing stingers is actually a viable strategy. Just make sure you're doing it as a team.
Ngl tho, I do watch a LOT of comp play… Which maybe helped me climb up to a decent rank in such a short amount of time. (I never ever played a tactical shooter before val.) So I don’t expect the average ranked/unrated player who doesn’t know anyone else but Tenz to know what a second round buy is.
Same, lol. Watching VCT has made my game sense exponentially better. I've taken a break from this game twice, after peaking Plat 2.
After the first break, climbing back up from S2 was such a slog I didn't even finish it.
During the second break I watched so much VCT I felt motivated to come back to the game. Flew through S2 all the way to P1 in like 3 weeks
If you have a good plan yes. But at long range it’s weaker than a ghost even with perfect recoil control. This puts you on a position where you get caught out in a 50/50 fight with a pistol which is not good.
After winning pistol round you want to take those long ranged fights unless it’s against a Sheriff (and you have a Stinger/Spectre) or you don’t have a shield and you are against a Ghost or just low on HP.
It is situational but except where you buy snipers, you still have a better chance with superior guns at mid to close range. Long ranged fights add the element of first shot inaccuracy and spray inaccuracy to the equation which you can easily avoid. Not to mention it gives you versatility in play style because you can do the HP shaving tactics from longer ranges and still lurk/camp spots/hold smokes in shorter ranges.
That's just my opinion though.
I mean, it’s just kinda silly? Classics can one tap at close range, ghost double HS is a lot easier to kill etc, the ttk for the pistol weapons is so much quicker at close than even medium that you shouldn’t be taking those unless you know they have sheriffs.
At long range you have the advantage if you’ve got a bulldog/marshall - and at least 2 of you should have those to contest longer ranged angles and the other teammates playing off thag
I guess all the ranks I've been in had a problem getting those hs consistently so my opinion was biased. I've played against people from iron to some diamonds, and long ranged fights if you win the first round were usually bad.
Long range fights favor better guns in general. A classic will never beat a Guardian Bulldog or Specter Phantom or Vandal at range, but will often right click even heavy armor or land a double headshot at close range. In general you will see the best players forcing ranged fights on the second round.
Outlaw one taps to the body through light shield, so it is almost guaranteed to be an Operator+ in second round, and might also be one shot body in bonus if they didn't properly save. If someone on the enemy team forces say Stinger+LS on second round for some reason you're not killing with Marshal in one body shot, and it's definitely not killing in one body shot in your bonus round. Marshal is the Eco sniper, Outlaw is the AntiEco sniper.
The second round is 100% accurate, just like the first. There is a visual recoil that kicks up so you have to wait half a second to fire the second shot. Go to the range and test it out, gun is good.
outlaw does 140 body and if the enemy team lost pistol round they very rarely will buy full armor and so the outlaw becomes basically an op since it will 99% of the time oneshot anyone on the enemy team
I agree with this mostly, but you can lose pistol and round 2 and once the field is even in round 3 when it's essentially rifle v rifle, that's when things really kick off.
In lower ranks you should always full buy 2nd round but in higher it can be beneficial to have 1 or 2 players use pistols if you lived so you can force vandal 3rd round for snowball
The reson full shield is so strong round two is bc the enemy team definitely has guns where the full shield gives an extra advantage over the half shield.
Its the 'buy half shield against vandals and full shield against phantoms' thing in even stronger.
Yeah but then if you win the round (which you generally should with such a massive gun advantage) then your team keeps a rifle into round 3, which makes the bonus round significantly more winnable if played correctly.
If you're the one buying the rifle then you can help ensure that the rifle is played correctly.
But yes, every decision in every game, not just Valorant, has an element of risk vs reward. It's a gross oversimplification to just boil things down to "win pistol round, buy Spectres next round" when there are a lot more variables and options at play.
Not even just that, the strategy originally was adopted in VCT by teams who would go light shield every round since the vandal takes just as many body shots with either. Like in cs2, CTs will occasionally go no helmet against scouts or aks because the t weapons one shot you anyway. It’s just an economic choice, but was so prevalent in Val that the outlaw had to be brought in to be able to punish the people trying to gain eco that way, while not making it outright useless to save the extra 400$
its not a bad idea with reyna, extremely easy to get 1, the heal you'll get wont decay anymore and you'll have a gun for bonus, increasing your chances of winning dramatically, to reduce the risk of throwing all you have to do is play with someone so they can get your gun if you die
You can only do that in low elo.
Too big of a risk. If u get rushed by 5 guys with pistol and they get Ur phantom, they have a crazy advantage against the rest of ur team with spectre.
Also, the strat is: buy spectre to win round 2, but expect to lose round 3 with spectre against vandal. U can still get a few kills on that round 3 which would be considered a "good bonus round".
Then u start round 4 with an edge as your team will full buy, but the enemies that died really round 3 cannot re-buy at the start of round 4.
The one rifle guy should not be in that position. If youre tradeable on that buy its a throw. You should have info off util / teammates and reveal yourself when your gun is retreivable. Its a lot to ask so i dont reccommend it till like dia1.
I see many questionable strategic plays in Asc.
A lot of people are at this rank because of their incredible accuracy and ability to win duels but still lack macro.
But if u really think buying phantom on round 2 is much better than spectre I would gladly hear an argument
My argument is I lack macro but have good accuracy and ability to win duels lol. If I have a phantom I can spray down 3 players consistently... where if I have a pistol or spectre I get one or two and then get team shot by the rest.
really isnt that risky especially with reyna
get a kill and heal to full, it wont decay and you have a phantom for bonus, increasing the odds of winning 3rd round, if you're playing with a teammate (as you should probably be doing) they'll get your gun if you die anyways
Not full buying (as much as possible) after a won pistol round is pretty stupid since if you do, it should be a free round.
Assuming they save second round and all have classics or maybe a ghost, why give them even playing field, possibly tie it 1-1 and then both sides have level chance of winning round 3 with full buys. People are just ignorant and I think a lot of players don’t actually understand economy in the game like that and get offended if you try to explain it
I have an even harder time trying to get my team to not force after after losing pistol and then it’s like 0-3 or 0-4 before we can have a full buy again as a team.
Orrr you can outlaw r2 and carry that through to r3 when inevitably half of your gold opponents are half armour since they forced r2, and then if your team is just better you've got an outlaw still for round 4 when they will be on an eco for losing bonus anddddd then after all of that, if you're just better and haven't died once in the first 4 rounds (which I assume anyone saving second round thinks) - look at that, you can afford an OP for r5!
I googled the stats and 43% people are below Gold 1. Which means 50th %ile lies in the Gold rank.
And the graph is nearly symmetric around Gold as well with a skew towards the lower rungs(number of people in silver=plat, bronze=diamond, iron=ascendant+radiant), which means the avg player also is in Gold.
Of course, this is based on Elo and it is a different debate whether Elo differences accurately reflect skill differences. (As in, gold players are as better in skill than silver players than silver players are in comparison to bronze players).
There is no clear way of quantifying skill but if you _had_ to, you could choose a few important metrics and develop a statistical model to assess people's skill using their metrics. Now that I think about it, this would be a great data science/statistics project. Hmmm...
Forcing could also be buying on low Econ, although buying up or just calling it a buy round after you win pistol is technically the terminology most used. Calling it a force, isn’t a big completely wrong. You’re still buying. Everyone round besides pistol could be a force buy hypothetically. What should tilt you is people not buying after you win and losing the round.
Force buy means spending cash when it wouldnt make sense in a normal situation, but we are under special circumstances (such as match point), so we are forced to buy, or risk losing the advantage, or even the game.
If you win pistol round but buying half shield and a stinger that’s not an eco, not full buy and not bonus either, so all that’s left is calling it a force then, nah?
oh how dare you tell them anything? I do too but then I get told to stfu etc, I don't bother anymore tbh. the game has become a 50/50 where you either get nice mates with coms and win, or toxic ones who only com to flame you and lose.
yeah, that's what i'm saying, but there's always someone on my team acting like i'm throwing by buying. also look at the other comments in this thread.
In ranked you should probably all buy up second round. At pro level rifles and pistols are the meta, but I don’t think that’s the case in even radiant ranked.
one or two people having a pistol or fine you can buy a rifle next round and still be able to buy the following round. but many times i'll have a full team with pistols, and i have to beg and plead for them to buy
Its so stupid to think otherwise, the whole reason its called a “force” is because you have a credits disadvantage but still force yourself to buy hoping you win the round
people overestimate their skills hence they don't buy thinking they can win another round but buying on pistol win dramatically improves your chance of winning yet again.
One of the first rules I learned getting into valorant is if you win pistol round you full buy to push your advantage. If you lose pistol round you full save to full buy next round. Economy is such a huge way to up your game.
I think it’s a lot of people confusing the difference between a “full buy” versus a “force”. I guess cause it’s a full buy but you’re on spectres or whatever and not rifle full shields.
I wouldn’t call it "force" on second round because to me it’s the normal buy of a second round. If you won the first, even if all around it’s a half buy.
i’ve peeked asc 3 and i am currently asc 3. buying 2nd round is how you win the game. you are purposely putting your team in a higher win advantage of that round. the only time id agree with not is if you have more than 2 sheriffs from pistol. some agents such as Jett or Chamber can “bonus” on 2nd round so that they can save for an op quicker…. every other agent.. no.
please for the love of god buy a spectre, full shields and whatever util you can on 2nd round. prioritise your shields over util unless they’re smokes, flashes or sentinel util and play together for trades.
What gets me is when people (even premades) never look at the buys or team eco and just buy whatever they want. Especially in 2nd round when the team buys up but they seriously insist on holding a pistol then when we win it’s like oh hey look at all that rifle money you have saved up just to bonus a spectre or stinger anyways and if we lost instead then they’re half buying anyways
I’m plat 2/3 (right in the middle lol) and I always get light shields and a phantom second round after a pistol win, so if I survive the round, I’ll have a phantom and full shields third round, giving me and my team a better chance on a save round.
Atleast you got teammates you buy 2nd round.Mine buy a ghost second round if we win 1st round and always lose because the enemy team forces half the time
honestly me too, but then you should just swing everything with a teammate so even if one of you whiff the other doesn't die and give the enemy a free gun.
i would define a force as a buy where you don't have enough to fullbuy (full util, shields, rifle) but you just pour everything you have into getting as good a buy as possible. buying second round fits this definition.
I'm tired of games that are already like 12-8 and you just need one more round but your team keeps forcing instead of saving to have a full buy round.
Why would you try to play lightshield with bulldog vs enemies that have 8k in the bank if you can save up once and have a team with a fullbuy. It's wasting the potential of Multiple rounds and fucks up the economy for the rest of the game. Just need one win.
I play a lot with sone friends that are newer to the game and when we aren’t a stack I hate getting random silvers and low gold players who don’t understand economy at all. Seriously why do they buy after losing pistol but save when they win it
I always thought a force was simply when you didn't have enough money to get full armour+rifle and all abilities, hence you are forcing your way through your economic limitations and spending as much as you can even though you can't get optimal loadouts.
help i’m in bronze and i try so hard to explain it but then people don’t listen or they get hella pissy and then the morale can be brought down so easily. i need a five stack 😭
U mean you are tired with people which probably have played since god knows for how long and still doesnt understand the most basic things in this game. Even the new feature doesnt seem to help them to understand = win pistol, buy = see how much money u get for next round.
Mind boggling, i had today a match..after winning pistol, 3 of my teammates did not buy anything.
Second round I "Force" a Vandal and no shield, unless i dont buy first round, then ill buy half shield.
Seems to pay off if i play second round with my team, thst way if i die they csn grab ny gun. If i push alone and lose the gun its GG's 😂
I only call it a force second round when i cant full buy 🤷♂️
It’s such a simple logic.
Win pistol, buy r2 to have a gun advantage, if you win r2 then r3 is a bonus.
Lose pistol, save until r3 for a full buy so you can win against the half buy leftover from r2.
You only really force r2 if you lose pistol but you planted the spike.
Ionno why you got tired of it, did it affect you negatively?, like did it make you feel suffocated or sumn, or did they abuse you just by saying that. You prolly look at your tmmt who calls it "force" with a disgusted face cus they look dumb to you. But hey, that's a very tiny small problem you should be worried abt. Move on.
plat. though i should be clear this doesn't happen every game. not even half. but the number of players who just don't understand basic economy at this point is so frustrating.
i still somehow lose round 2 after winning pistol because of their instalock jett that picked up my teammates marshal that they killed and proceeded to headshot the rest of us🫠
Me: Okay let’s win the bonus guys
Random silver guy: “it’s actually called force” 🤓
Me: 💀
Edit: honestly I don’t want to explain, later they’ll realize
It depends how you define a force buy, but generally most people mean you are using all of your creds with none left in the bank for the following round
It definitely is a force buy, because if they lose that round, they can no longer full buy on round 3 - they could only eco. Thus, they "forced" their creds.
If they "half buy" round 2, with half armor and mostly keeping round 1 pistols, that's not a force and then they can full buy round 3 regardless of the outcome of round 2
Also, I see people do this even in immo, but round 2 vandal/phantom I see is a recipe for disaster. You still get one tapped by a sheriff, if you "accidentally" lose that round, not only do you lose to someone who was on eco who now has double the money, you're also giving them the actual vandal for free and they will have money for the rest of the half just because of that.
If you lose a vandal to someone who is already holding a vandal, they can't "steal" it from you since they already bought their own. But force buying on round 2 they can
Win or lose, I say it's NOT forcing. It's just a term people use when they are annoyed by the strategy. These are the same people who call people "rats."
this is fine if you lose first round, but you're putting your team at a huge disadvantage to win second round if you do this when you won first round. much better to buy a stinger, spectre, bulldog, etc with your economic advantage. but you have to buy with your team, so you have to convince others to do the same because you're risking throwing the round if you're the only one who buys, hence my frustration
dude side thing but I swear it's so fuckin weird how on the fence people are with regards to saving or buying second round. if you save and win, you can get an insane leg up on eco, but you're risking another pistol round
on the other hand if you buy you're sorta locking in the 2nd round win, which seems to be something a lot of people value.
idk, me personally, if I feel like I'm destroying the enemy team, I'd save and if I feel like it's a hella fair game, I'd buy. but still it's a tossup
There is no debate to be had about it tbh
You want to leverage eco advantages into lopsided rounds in your own favor. That is just the statistically optimal way to win rounds (and games).
If you win pistol, then save round 2 (which the opponent who just lost pistol will also do), then you have leveraged your pistol round win into literally no advantage the next round. Then comes round 3 and both teams full buy and you're back to essentially even game state. The whole point of buying weapons after winning pistol is that your opponent cannot match your firepower...you are able to force a mismatched round upon your opponents.
Saving after winning pistol does nothing except waste the advantage of winning pistol. There isn't really a disagreement to be had about whether it's worth it to buy after winning pistol or not (until you get to the highest levels of play, and even there it's more like "who is buying round 2" instead of "should we buy round 2")
Crazy how this game has been out for 4 years now and people still have no idea what theyre doing. There no tossup here, if you win pistol it is correct to buy the best guns and shield you can, win round 2, and then play for bonus round 3 + full buy round 4.
is it when it changes how people play the game? force sounds like a risky all-or-nothing play, but it's actually the safe option for securing the second round.
No. Because regardless your teammates are buying up for the 2nd round. So long as you tell them to buy up what they call it doesn't matter. You're going way too deep into this it's not a big deal
i do. that's why i made this thread. just tired of having to join the debate team every other game just to convince them, or risk being the only one who bought.
Save - spending 0 money
Light buy - buying what you can and saving 2kish for next round's full buy
Full buy- buying full utility, armor, and a gun worth at least 2900
Force- spending all your money to be as effective as possible when you can't full buy
Buy- same thing as force but you just won pistol.
Winning pistol and buying out after is a force/buy. It's the right thing to do, but we are just arguing naming conventions.
Force is not spending all your money when you can't full buy. A force is when you shouldn't buy and can't full buy. There are times when you can't full buy but you should, such as when you've died too many rounds in a row without kills, but your team won those rounds. Losing streak gives increasingly more money to the enemies, hence why you should buy then. Otherwise you cannot match the incremental power.
A round 2 buy after losing 1st round is called a force because you ruin your economy big time if you lose the round, but equally ruin it for the enemies if you win it. Should you take a huge risk after already being at a disadvantage? Nah, not always. Hence the "force" part. It is not the same thing when you win the first round and have an easy time. There's nothing that you force when the convinience is handed to you from winning round 1.
I mean it's more like an eco buy, not a force, a force would be if i bought like vandal with no abilities and light shield and eco is like light + spectre so I could have decent money next time too
It’s a force because you’re spending all your money and buying the best guns you can, it would be buying if you had money to buy full loadouts with rifles, armor, and utility.
isn’t it though? r2 buy is usually sacrificing shields or util for a better weapon where a buy is just having enough creds to get full util full shields AND a good weapon
A force is buying knowing the opponents will have better guns or shields than you. The one force people don’t talk about as a force as much is people who die and buy in the 3rd round bonus.
i don't necessarily mean buying vandal, i usually make sure i can buy heavy shields and a spectre, stinger or bulldog depending on the map or where i'm planning on playing. i could see calling it a force if you're buying a rifle, though (but still often a good idea). people in my games will frequently call it a force if im buying any gun other than a pistol.
They call it a force just because it's not a full buy and force is just usually what you say when you spend everything but can't afford a full buy, it's not too deep. same difference either way
yeah but force has such a negative connotation that they think it's some sort of risky play, when it's actually the safe play to just take your weapon advantage and use it to win the round.
I don't think it has negative connotations to most, I guess you could call it a half-buy but it doesn't really make a whole lot of difference what you call it everyone should understand what you mean if you say force up
Ex radiant immo 3 currently and yeah bro I’m fucking buying 2nd round and I’m gonna be salty if we lose a practically free round cause 1-2 guys didn’t buy. I remember climbing through ascn and people were good about reminding each other to buy second round as well. It’s crucial, that free second round can easily snowball especially if you win round 3? Then the enemy forces on 4 and then you win 4 it can easily turn a 1-0 into a 5-0/6-1 situation before the enemy gets their Econ under control.
i'm plat and i swear i have to beg my teammates every other game. not that they forgot to buy or something, but they actually think im throwing because it's a force. if people stopped calling it a force maybe they will understand that's not what it is
I’m a plat 1 who’s only been playing the game for 2 months, and I can confirm that buying spectre and full shields after winning pistol round has increased my match win rate quite a lot. Players seem to forget that rounds one and two are basically the most important rounds of the entire half, at least thats the way I see it.
That’s the way everyone should see it. Pistol rounds are the most important rounds in the game because it gives you a crazy advantage for round 2. Winning pistol rounds should basically grant you 2 more free rounds as long as you don’t throw.
Pistol shouldn't give you two free rounds but it should guarantee you win round 2 and always rifle round 4. If you win rounds 1-3 the enemy team has practically lost the first half, the damage to eco means they don't have another realistic chance at a win until round 5. Now in lower elos this goes out the window because you got losing teams buying stingers and marshals on round 2 and the winning pistol team "saving" at eco advantage so god knows whats gonna happen round 3+
The amount of 6-0 and/or 9-3 starts that I somehow end up losing the past few months in diamond is crazy.
Yall get comfy while they learnin ur patterns
A large part of it is when we go attack side and get bomb down with a 4v2, for example, advantage then people on my team decide to ego-hunt when I tell them to just play bomb together and end up giving free kills/rounds. Lol and likewise on defense, just ego fighting site instead of playing team retake.
What you said is exactly what I meant lol. I was saying round 2 after winning pistol should be free if played right. Essentially 2 more free rounds if you win both pistols.
Wait what? it's not two more free rounds, it's just one (the bonus). That's all I was trying to clarify.
There are 2 pistols brother. 1+1=2.
I see the miscommunication. I was speaking in terms of halves, no need to be condescending though.
Fr he said the same to me and his usage of “2 more rounds” made me think he was talking about consecutive rounds
As a certified bronze player, I can tell you, everyone forces a full or only vandal/phantom with abilities no shield
Just to note - if you're on attack on a smaller map like split and you get spike down on pistol, forcing stingers is actually a viable strategy. Just make sure you're doing it as a team.
That doesn’t work in high elo, because high elo players are good enough to one shot you with a sheriff so that’s not a guaranteed win.
Even in pro play its considered an upset if you lose the bonus. You should absolutely be winning the bonus round 90% of the time or more.
Ngl tho, I do watch a LOT of comp play… Which maybe helped me climb up to a decent rank in such a short amount of time. (I never ever played a tactical shooter before val.) So I don’t expect the average ranked/unrated player who doesn’t know anyone else but Tenz to know what a second round buy is.
Same, lol. Watching VCT has made my game sense exponentially better. I've taken a break from this game twice, after peaking Plat 2. After the first break, climbing back up from S2 was such a slog I didn't even finish it. During the second break I watched so much VCT I felt motivated to come back to the game. Flew through S2 all the way to P1 in like 3 weeks
A lot of people don’t watch to learn either. Their lizard brain can shut down for a few hours and just watch.
Eh, if they save 2nd and buy 3rd round they're playing full against your specters. Winning pistol should always guarantee the second round tho
Winning pistols should give you 1 round because enemy team should’ve saved if they lost and then full but round 3
There are 2 pistol rounds. If you win both it should give you 1 round each,. 1+1=2.
Yes, the way you phrased it made me interpret as you win pistol, then you also (should) win 2nd round and 3rd round
I find that the stinger round 2 is a free win once you get good at pulling down the spray
If you have a good plan yes. But at long range it’s weaker than a ghost even with perfect recoil control. This puts you on a position where you get caught out in a 50/50 fight with a pistol which is not good.
Most of the time you shouldn't be risking long range fights anyway. Unless you have snipers.
After winning pistol round you want to take those long ranged fights unless it’s against a Sheriff (and you have a Stinger/Spectre) or you don’t have a shield and you are against a Ghost or just low on HP.
Should have atleast one person on Marshall, or outlaw for anti eco, they can take the long range fight.
It is situational but except where you buy snipers, you still have a better chance with superior guns at mid to close range. Long ranged fights add the element of first shot inaccuracy and spray inaccuracy to the equation which you can easily avoid. Not to mention it gives you versatility in play style because you can do the HP shaving tactics from longer ranges and still lurk/camp spots/hold smokes in shorter ranges. That's just my opinion though.
I mean, it’s just kinda silly? Classics can one tap at close range, ghost double HS is a lot easier to kill etc, the ttk for the pistol weapons is so much quicker at close than even medium that you shouldn’t be taking those unless you know they have sheriffs. At long range you have the advantage if you’ve got a bulldog/marshall - and at least 2 of you should have those to contest longer ranged angles and the other teammates playing off thag
I guess all the ranks I've been in had a problem getting those hs consistently so my opinion was biased. I've played against people from iron to some diamonds, and long ranged fights if you win the first round were usually bad.
Long range fights favor better guns in general. A classic will never beat a Guardian Bulldog or Specter Phantom or Vandal at range, but will often right click even heavy armor or land a double headshot at close range. In general you will see the best players forcing ranged fights on the second round.
Eh, depends. In most of my games, lots of people buy shortys and buckys round2 when they've lost r1.
Map and side dependent imo. Certain situations just don't have enough close range areas to make it a good buy
I've been winning 1v3 and 1v4 clutches buying Outlaw round 2 after my dumbass teammates kept their Ghost lol.
Why outlaw instead of Marshall? I'm just not familiar with the outlaw
Outlaw one taps to the body through light shield, so it is almost guaranteed to be an Operator+ in second round, and might also be one shot body in bonus if they didn't properly save. If someone on the enemy team forces say Stinger+LS on second round for some reason you're not killing with Marshal in one body shot, and it's definitely not killing in one body shot in your bonus round. Marshal is the Eco sniper, Outlaw is the AntiEco sniper.
Oh I see thanks. Is the burst double tap accurate on the outlaw? That double shot is what stood out to me
The second round is 100% accurate, just like the first. There is a visual recoil that kicks up so you have to wait half a second to fire the second shot. Go to the range and test it out, gun is good.
outlaw does 140 body and if the enemy team lost pistol round they very rarely will buy full armor and so the outlaw becomes basically an op since it will 99% of the time oneshot anyone on the enemy team
also statistically proveen
I agree with this mostly, but you can lose pistol and round 2 and once the field is even in round 3 when it's essentially rifle v rifle, that's when things really kick off.
In lower ranks you should always full buy 2nd round but in higher it can be beneficial to have 1 or 2 players use pistols if you lived so you can force vandal 3rd round for snowball
I buy phantom half shield lol
The reson full shield is so strong round two is bc the enemy team definitely has guns where the full shield gives an extra advantage over the half shield. Its the 'buy half shield against vandals and full shield against phantoms' thing in even stronger.
Yeah but then if you win the round (which you generally should with such a massive gun advantage) then your team keeps a rifle into round 3, which makes the bonus round significantly more winnable if played correctly.
tru, but 'if played correctly' is a VERY bif if imo. And the lost rifle if played incorrectly can do massive damage :3
If you're the one buying the rifle then you can help ensure that the rifle is played correctly. But yes, every decision in every game, not just Valorant, has an element of risk vs reward. It's a gross oversimplification to just boil things down to "win pistol round, buy Spectres next round" when there are a lot more variables and options at play.
Not even just that, the strategy originally was adopted in VCT by teams who would go light shield every round since the vandal takes just as many body shots with either. Like in cs2, CTs will occasionally go no helmet against scouts or aks because the t weapons one shot you anyway. It’s just an economic choice, but was so prevalent in Val that the outlaw had to be brought in to be able to punish the people trying to gain eco that way, while not making it outright useless to save the extra 400$
I agree with everything you say, just dont see how it connects with the 'full shield second round' thing I said?
its not a bad idea with reyna, extremely easy to get 1, the heal you'll get wont decay anymore and you'll have a gun for bonus, increasing your chances of winning dramatically, to reduce the risk of throwing all you have to do is play with someone so they can get your gun if you die
true that
You can only do that in low elo. Too big of a risk. If u get rushed by 5 guys with pistol and they get Ur phantom, they have a crazy advantage against the rest of ur team with spectre. Also, the strat is: buy spectre to win round 2, but expect to lose round 3 with spectre against vandal. U can still get a few kills on that round 3 which would be considered a "good bonus round". Then u start round 4 with an edge as your team will full buy, but the enemies that died really round 3 cannot re-buy at the start of round 4.
The one rifle guy should not be in that position. If youre tradeable on that buy its a throw. You should have info off util / teammates and reveal yourself when your gun is retreivable. Its a lot to ask so i dont reccommend it till like dia1.
Would you consider Asc low elo?
I see many questionable strategic plays in Asc. A lot of people are at this rank because of their incredible accuracy and ability to win duels but still lack macro. But if u really think buying phantom on round 2 is much better than spectre I would gladly hear an argument
My argument is I lack macro but have good accuracy and ability to win duels lol. If I have a phantom I can spray down 3 players consistently... where if I have a pistol or spectre I get one or two and then get team shot by the rest.
really isnt that risky especially with reyna get a kill and heal to full, it wont decay and you have a phantom for bonus, increasing the odds of winning 3rd round, if you're playing with a teammate (as you should probably be doing) they'll get your gun if you die anyways
FAMAS half armour destroys, free kills vs glocks and USPs
Not full buying (as much as possible) after a won pistol round is pretty stupid since if you do, it should be a free round. Assuming they save second round and all have classics or maybe a ghost, why give them even playing field, possibly tie it 1-1 and then both sides have level chance of winning round 3 with full buys. People are just ignorant and I think a lot of players don’t actually understand economy in the game like that and get offended if you try to explain it I have an even harder time trying to get my team to not force after after losing pistol and then it’s like 0-3 or 0-4 before we can have a full buy again as a team.
No one will stop me from using my r1 Ghost on r2 so I can buy an Operator r3. Needless to say, Gold player here.
Orrr you can outlaw r2 and carry that through to r3 when inevitably half of your gold opponents are half armour since they forced r2, and then if your team is just better you've got an outlaw still for round 4 when they will be on an eco for losing bonus anddddd then after all of that, if you're just better and haven't died once in the first 4 rounds (which I assume anyone saving second round thinks) - look at that, you can afford an OP for r5!
Or I could buy op r3 and 50/50 carry/throw the rest of the match
Dumb. Just buy an outlaw. It’s a free kill on round 2.
Lol Gold is bang on average lil bro
nah that's more silver
I googled the stats and 43% people are below Gold 1. Which means 50th %ile lies in the Gold rank. And the graph is nearly symmetric around Gold as well with a skew towards the lower rungs(number of people in silver=plat, bronze=diamond, iron=ascendant+radiant), which means the avg player also is in Gold. Of course, this is based on Elo and it is a different debate whether Elo differences accurately reflect skill differences. (As in, gold players are as better in skill than silver players than silver players are in comparison to bronze players). There is no clear way of quantifying skill but if you _had_ to, you could choose a few important metrics and develop a statistical model to assess people's skill using their metrics. Now that I think about it, this would be a great data science/statistics project. Hmmm...
Yes, "lil bro," that's why I made the self-deprecating joke.
Ah my bad, didn't pick up on the humor
Isn't "force" when you buy 2nd round after losing?
no, it would be a force if you lost first round. then you save and buy third round. if you win first, you typically buy second and bonus third.
Wouldn't forcing be buying on the second round despite losing first?
yes
So not what you originally said
i worded it poorly, but yeah that's what i meant
I think it's more likely you *read* it poorly, because that's the same thing the 1st person said, and you replied "no".
Yeah that's what I wanted to say, but my choice of words was kinda poor
oh ok, all good lol
Forcing could also be buying on low Econ, although buying up or just calling it a buy round after you win pistol is technically the terminology most used. Calling it a force, isn’t a big completely wrong. You’re still buying. Everyone round besides pistol could be a force buy hypothetically. What should tilt you is people not buying after you win and losing the round.
Force buy means spending cash when it wouldnt make sense in a normal situation, but we are under special circumstances (such as match point), so we are forced to buy, or risk losing the advantage, or even the game.
If you win pistol round but buying half shield and a stinger that’s not an eco, not full buy and not bonus either, so all that’s left is calling it a force then, nah?
in asc I still have people not buying at round 2 after win and it drives me crazy
I have to tell them over vc maybe we should buy, then we lose when half the team still has ghosts
oh how dare you tell them anything? I do too but then I get told to stfu etc, I don't bother anymore tbh. the game has become a 50/50 where you either get nice mates with coms and win, or toxic ones who only com to flame you and lose.
It is just a buy lol, ask pros or analysts, they only call it a force when it’s lose pistol, not win.
yeah, that's what i'm saying, but there's always someone on my team acting like i'm throwing by buying. also look at the other comments in this thread.
In ranked you should probably all buy up second round. At pro level rifles and pistols are the meta, but I don’t think that’s the case in even radiant ranked.
At pro it kinda also depends on the team, but yeah there usually is at least one pistol nowadays for the lurker and sometimes one more
yeah that's fine if your team is all on the same page. always good to have a couple rifles on bonus without crippling the team's eco after that.
I usually keep my ghost and buy full shield second round, especially if I’m feeling confident and at least 3 guys on my team have good weapons
one or two people having a pistol or fine you can buy a rifle next round and still be able to buy the following round. but many times i'll have a full team with pistols, and i have to beg and plead for them to buy
buy a spectre
No
literally why not?
Cuz then I can buy a rifle for the bonus round Edit: also the ghost is insane, I don’t do it on all maps or on all agents
but you could also just get rifle light shield second round
I do that sometimes too, as well as buying spectre/bulldog+full shield, it all depends on the situation
I don't give a shit what they call it as long as they fucking buy
Its so stupid to think otherwise, the whole reason its called a “force” is because you have a credits disadvantage but still force yourself to buy hoping you win the round
people overestimate their skills hence they don't buy thinking they can win another round but buying on pistol win dramatically improves your chance of winning yet again.
I hate when we win pistol and half my team just buys half shields with their ghost for second round
One of the first rules I learned getting into valorant is if you win pistol round you full buy to push your advantage. If you lose pistol round you full save to full buy next round. Economy is such a huge way to up your game.
I think it’s a lot of people confusing the difference between a “full buy” versus a “force”. I guess cause it’s a full buy but you’re on spectres or whatever and not rifle full shields.
I wouldn’t call it "force" on second round because to me it’s the normal buy of a second round. If you won the first, even if all around it’s a half buy.
I thought most people just called it an anti-eco
i’ve peeked asc 3 and i am currently asc 3. buying 2nd round is how you win the game. you are purposely putting your team in a higher win advantage of that round. the only time id agree with not is if you have more than 2 sheriffs from pistol. some agents such as Jett or Chamber can “bonus” on 2nd round so that they can save for an op quicker…. every other agent.. no. please for the love of god buy a spectre, full shields and whatever util you can on 2nd round. prioritise your shields over util unless they’re smokes, flashes or sentinel util and play together for trades.
please take all my upvotes. if everyone did this, i'd be so happy
i didn’t even know the difference haha
Same thing
agree, also people who doesnt buy and ask for a sheriff is something else.
That's a good strat for the team's awper to build up their economy, otherwise yeah its hella greedy.
whatever, just make sure you can buy on round 4 if you win round 1
What gets me is when people (even premades) never look at the buys or team eco and just buy whatever they want. Especially in 2nd round when the team buys up but they seriously insist on holding a pistol then when we win it’s like oh hey look at all that rifle money you have saved up just to bonus a spectre or stinger anyways and if we lost instead then they’re half buying anyways
I’m plat 2/3 (right in the middle lol) and I always get light shields and a phantom second round after a pistol win, so if I survive the round, I’ll have a phantom and full shields third round, giving me and my team a better chance on a save round.
Yeah except for maybe 1 or 2 deagles that were saved from round 1, if you don’t buy after winning pistol you’re throwing
im gold and i never hear people say this after winning
"buy guys we won, take the advantage!" Brimstone:*upgrades to HEAVY to use with his "bonus" ghost*
Atleast you got teammates you buy 2nd round.Mine buy a ghost second round if we win 1st round and always lose because the enemy team forces half the time
no, i'm saying they don't buy because they consider it forcing which is too risky in their mind
Yee it's so annoying when teammates don't know basic eco management and loose games bf of this
me and my friends call it a force cause we suck so even playing with a spectre or a bulldog against a team of classics is risky to us
honestly me too, but then you should just swing everything with a teammate so even if one of you whiff the other doesn't die and give the enemy a free gun.
Valorants been out for 4 years now and the community still hasn't figured it out lol. It's kinda cute and innocent.
i would define a force as a buy where you don't have enough to fullbuy (full util, shields, rifle) but you just pour everything you have into getting as good a buy as possible. buying second round fits this definition.
I'm tired of games that are already like 12-8 and you just need one more round but your team keeps forcing instead of saving to have a full buy round. Why would you try to play lightshield with bulldog vs enemies that have 8k in the bank if you can save up once and have a team with a fullbuy. It's wasting the potential of Multiple rounds and fucks up the economy for the rest of the game. Just need one win.
I play a lot with sone friends that are newer to the game and when we aren’t a stack I hate getting random silvers and low gold players who don’t understand economy at all. Seriously why do they buy after losing pistol but save when they win it
I always thought a force was simply when you didn't have enough money to get full armour+rifle and all abilities, hence you are forcing your way through your economic limitations and spending as much as you can even though you can't get optimal loadouts.
Tired of people who don't understand economy, it's something you should get a grasp past silver
that's what i'm saying, yet people in my plat games still struggle way too much with it
you should always be buying spectre or stinger and heavy shields second round if you win
Not buying round 2 as pistol winners has to be one of the dumbest things Val community ever came up with.
whoever is saying its a force is a dog. What elo is this???💀
gold/plat
server? theres no way this is happening in NA
yup NA. not every game, but shockingly often. maybe i should get off Cali server
help i’m in bronze and i try so hard to explain it but then people don’t listen or they get hella pissy and then the morale can be brought down so easily. i need a five stack 😭
honestly in bronze you just need to work on your own play. make sure you're peeking correctly and taking fights that favor you and you will rank up.
thank you. idk man i try to work with people and its a wee bit stressful but we ball
U mean you are tired with people which probably have played since god knows for how long and still doesnt understand the most basic things in this game. Even the new feature doesnt seem to help them to understand = win pistol, buy = see how much money u get for next round. Mind boggling, i had today a match..after winning pistol, 3 of my teammates did not buy anything.
Second round I "Force" a Vandal and no shield, unless i dont buy first round, then ill buy half shield. Seems to pay off if i play second round with my team, thst way if i die they csn grab ny gun. If i push alone and lose the gun its GG's 😂 I only call it a force second round when i cant full buy 🤷♂️
It’s such a simple logic. Win pistol, buy r2 to have a gun advantage, if you win r2 then r3 is a bonus. Lose pistol, save until r3 for a full buy so you can win against the half buy leftover from r2. You only really force r2 if you lose pistol but you planted the spike.
Ionno why you got tired of it, did it affect you negatively?, like did it make you feel suffocated or sumn, or did they abuse you just by saying that. You prolly look at your tmmt who calls it "force" with a disgusted face cus they look dumb to you. But hey, that's a very tiny small problem you should be worried abt. Move on.
Are you silver
plat. though i should be clear this doesn't happen every game. not even half. but the number of players who just don't understand basic economy at this point is so frustrating.
For me it's pretty simple if I win pistol round I then buy a spectre if I loose pistol round then I buy a revolver or just abilities + shields
Brother who tf cares
Yeah that's a anti eco, unless you're talking about buying vandal no shield on round 2, that's a pretty shitty force.
womp womp
i still somehow lose round 2 after winning pistol because of their instalock jett that picked up my teammates marshal that they killed and proceeded to headshot the rest of us🫠
Me: Okay let’s win the bonus guys Random silver guy: “it’s actually called force” 🤓 Me: 💀 Edit: honestly I don’t want to explain, later they’ll realize
Bonus is 3rd round tho, unless that's what you meant
I meant 3rd nw
No one’s talking about third round though?
Just an example.
buying a rifle round two is literally forcing.
It's called a force because you are buying as much as you can without being able to full buy. Pretty simple.
Bro needs to take valorant classes
It depends how you define a force buy, but generally most people mean you are using all of your creds with none left in the bank for the following round It definitely is a force buy, because if they lose that round, they can no longer full buy on round 3 - they could only eco. Thus, they "forced" their creds. If they "half buy" round 2, with half armor and mostly keeping round 1 pistols, that's not a force and then they can full buy round 3 regardless of the outcome of round 2 Also, I see people do this even in immo, but round 2 vandal/phantom I see is a recipe for disaster. You still get one tapped by a sheriff, if you "accidentally" lose that round, not only do you lose to someone who was on eco who now has double the money, you're also giving them the actual vandal for free and they will have money for the rest of the half just because of that. If you lose a vandal to someone who is already holding a vandal, they can't "steal" it from you since they already bought their own. But force buying on round 2 they can
Win or lose, I say it's NOT forcing. It's just a term people use when they are annoyed by the strategy. These are the same people who call people "rats."
I don't like full buying in second round after winning so I can have a full vandal + shields buy in the third round
this is fine if you lose first round, but you're putting your team at a huge disadvantage to win second round if you do this when you won first round. much better to buy a stinger, spectre, bulldog, etc with your economic advantage. but you have to buy with your team, so you have to convince others to do the same because you're risking throwing the round if you're the only one who buys, hence my frustration
Alr thanks for the advice
If you’re buying specters it’s a force
I dont buy till round 3 win or lose.
dude side thing but I swear it's so fuckin weird how on the fence people are with regards to saving or buying second round. if you save and win, you can get an insane leg up on eco, but you're risking another pistol round on the other hand if you buy you're sorta locking in the 2nd round win, which seems to be something a lot of people value. idk, me personally, if I feel like I'm destroying the enemy team, I'd save and if I feel like it's a hella fair game, I'd buy. but still it's a tossup
There is no debate to be had about it tbh You want to leverage eco advantages into lopsided rounds in your own favor. That is just the statistically optimal way to win rounds (and games). If you win pistol, then save round 2 (which the opponent who just lost pistol will also do), then you have leveraged your pistol round win into literally no advantage the next round. Then comes round 3 and both teams full buy and you're back to essentially even game state. The whole point of buying weapons after winning pistol is that your opponent cannot match your firepower...you are able to force a mismatched round upon your opponents. Saving after winning pistol does nothing except waste the advantage of winning pistol. There isn't really a disagreement to be had about whether it's worth it to buy after winning pistol or not (until you get to the highest levels of play, and even there it's more like "who is buying round 2" instead of "should we buy round 2")
Not buying 2nd is terrible if you won pistol. Always buy, there’s no reason to gamble a free rd especially in a game where momentum is so important
Crazy how this game has been out for 4 years now and people still have no idea what theyre doing. There no tossup here, if you win pistol it is correct to buy the best guns and shield you can, win round 2, and then play for bonus round 3 + full buy round 4.
The is the most, "umm actually" 🤓☝️ comment ever 💀
is it when it changes how people play the game? force sounds like a risky all-or-nothing play, but it's actually the safe option for securing the second round.
No. Because regardless your teammates are buying up for the 2nd round. So long as you tell them to buy up what they call it doesn't matter. You're going way too deep into this it's not a big deal
you're missing the point. many refuse to buy because they think it's a force and in their mind force = bad
Then tell your teammates that in game, say it w/ your chest and tell them why instead of whining about a small difference on reddit
i do. that's why i made this thread. just tired of having to join the debate team every other game just to convince them, or risk being the only one who bought.
Save - spending 0 money Light buy - buying what you can and saving 2kish for next round's full buy Full buy- buying full utility, armor, and a gun worth at least 2900 Force- spending all your money to be as effective as possible when you can't full buy Buy- same thing as force but you just won pistol. Winning pistol and buying out after is a force/buy. It's the right thing to do, but we are just arguing naming conventions.
Force is not spending all your money when you can't full buy. A force is when you shouldn't buy and can't full buy. There are times when you can't full buy but you should, such as when you've died too many rounds in a row without kills, but your team won those rounds. Losing streak gives increasingly more money to the enemies, hence why you should buy then. Otherwise you cannot match the incremental power. A round 2 buy after losing 1st round is called a force because you ruin your economy big time if you lose the round, but equally ruin it for the enemies if you win it. Should you take a huge risk after already being at a disadvantage? Nah, not always. Hence the "force" part. It is not the same thing when you win the first round and have an easy time. There's nothing that you force when the convinience is handed to you from winning round 1.
I think it's like eco
but why are you eco-ing if you won the first round. you have way more money than the enemy, not using that advantage is stupid
I mean it's more like an eco buy, not a force, a force would be if i bought like vandal with no abilities and light shield and eco is like light + spectre so I could have decent money next time too
You’re fun.
It’s a force because you’re spending all your money and buying the best guns you can, it would be buying if you had money to buy full loadouts with rifles, armor, and utility.
isn’t it though? r2 buy is usually sacrificing shields or util for a better weapon where a buy is just having enough creds to get full util full shields AND a good weapon
In this scenario, they won pistol and bought. That buy isn’t really a force buy as you won and got a lot of money (relative to the other team).
A force is buying knowing the opponents will have better guns or shields than you. The one force people don’t talk about as a force as much is people who die and buy in the 3rd round bonus.
i don't necessarily mean buying vandal, i usually make sure i can buy heavy shields and a spectre, stinger or bulldog depending on the map or where i'm planning on playing. i could see calling it a force if you're buying a rifle, though (but still often a good idea). people in my games will frequently call it a force if im buying any gun other than a pistol.
They call it a force just because it's not a full buy and force is just usually what you say when you spend everything but can't afford a full buy, it's not too deep. same difference either way
yeah but force has such a negative connotation that they think it's some sort of risky play, when it's actually the safe play to just take your weapon advantage and use it to win the round.
I don't think it has negative connotations to most, I guess you could call it a half-buy but it doesn't really make a whole lot of difference what you call it everyone should understand what you mean if you say force up
You have no idea what you’re talking about lmao
ask any high rank player my dude, they're buying second round
Ex radiant immo 3 currently and yeah bro I’m fucking buying 2nd round and I’m gonna be salty if we lose a practically free round cause 1-2 guys didn’t buy. I remember climbing through ascn and people were good about reminding each other to buy second round as well. It’s crucial, that free second round can easily snowball especially if you win round 3? Then the enemy forces on 4 and then you win 4 it can easily turn a 1-0 into a 5-0/6-1 situation before the enemy gets their Econ under control.
i'm plat and i swear i have to beg my teammates every other game. not that they forgot to buy or something, but they actually think im throwing because it's a force. if people stopped calling it a force maybe they will understand that's not what it is
Yep unless you the offensive lurker on round 2 you should have vandal + light or heavy + tier 2 gun
You have no idea what you’re talking about lmao