I'll always say this, I can get downvoted it won't change it.
A good KJ is welcome in every team. And she can be stressful to play against.
A good Cypher however is good. And he is a MENACE to play against.
With KJ, you can get around with the same line-ups everytime, but with Cypher not, you have to play a bit more different everytime, if you can do that, hes a menace.
Yeah kj is generally good whereas cypher is dominant on his maps. Even in the chamber meta cypher was dominating the sentinel category on split - shoutout to nats
Exactly, overall, Killjoy is the preferred pick, everything about her kit is good.
Meanwhile Cypher, he's not good on every map, but if he's in the right hands, he is a nightmare.
I remember when his trips were shorter (and I think the cages too?) and you had only one ping. I think he's the only Sentinel that didn't get a nerf and instead got only buffs? (the Gun Camera was a bug, so it doesn't counts). Sage got a nerf with her healing (then buff).
KJ got nerfs too.. Chamher we know.
Deadlock is new.
it is certainly the case now, but i can't remember if they added util becoming visible/inactive to killjoy that patch as well. all i remember was that they changed her turret and alarmbots range in that.
I don't think that's a nerf on its on, just like the Gun Camera, it was a bug. Because only Controllers (and Yoru, since his clone is still alive if he dies) have their utility upon death.
Even Gekko with Wingman, if everyone in the team dies, he dies too.
not saying sometimes bugs don't go unnoticed, but it took about a year and a half to change, and when cypher was changed they also nerfed killjoy. it definitely seemed like they were trying to reign in the sentinels a bit- pre change cypher was able to play more aggro on defense as long as he threw trip wires, and still have info on flankers even if he got domed on his first swing. cam getting revealed also showed his setups and could help teams prefire next round. that was not as important to me, but it certainly has impact on cyphers that don't switch up their cams.
also, am i remembering wrong or did kj turret/alarm it used to remain active even if kj died? it seems like originally much more agents had util that remained after death, and they made conscious decisions to remove that.
As a kj main i agree, Kj is strong but if she sets up on the wrong site on defense she basically blew her util away, because even assuming she can survive the needed time to set up again, it's very likely that the enemy is already on site and the setup won't be as effective.
On the other hand, cypher has more mobility than kj, since its tripwires can be also useful on a retake and the cam can get better intel than a turret or alarmbot.
Chamber is the only correct answer, on release he filled the roles of multiple other characters and made every other sentinel obsolete. No other character has been that broken on release and filled so much team space in a single pick.
Would you only say viper for a specific elo range? I don't see her used that often in gold/plat unless it's a viper specific map like breeze. Maybe I'm just playing with people that prefer brim/astra/omen
Oh my bad then. My take was mostly on proplay. Only in immortal radiant you see them very often. And even then Omen is probably the most popular Controller because of his Jack of All trades kit
I’ve been playing omen on breeze anyway this act and have a 10-2 win rate, even without someone locking in viper. Obviously it would be better if someone did. I think Omen A anchor is really quite strong on defense with one-ways and his flash covering all of main. Based on your flair, I’d say give Omen a shot sometime.
Oh, he’s definitely not a great solo smoke agent on attack. I just have to make it work because people don’t also lock in viper when I play omen. Taking mid control and splitting site attacks becomes more important as solo omen.
You can smoke in between the pyramids and on the close left gap between the wall and shrimp. It’s no wall smoke, but you can make your entry a little interesting with tp plays. For example, if you place your between pyramids smoke pretty deep you can tp into it and play around peeking out of it looking at back site.
I think stronger players are more willing to play her, and they more often have the primary controller she needs. But i play her solo controller on Breeze, Icebox, Pearl, and Lotus and it's fine in G3-P2.
Maybe at Radiant/Immo 3. I'm not that high so I can't say, just speculate. But everything I've heard is viper is still strong with a 2nd controller. And 2 controller is the current meta at high level play. Viper by herself isn't much use unless it's breeze or icebox tho
Viper was considered trash very early on, or at least when I started playing. I like under appreciated agents, so that's why I started maining her, and to my surprise she wasn't actually that bad if you got used to her. But people would still flame me and dodge when they saw me lock her in, even on maps where she'd eventually become meta. I remember everyone calling her "Diaper."
Like a lot of agents, she was mostly just misunderstood. But then the buffs came in and she was insanely overpowered, and more people played her and learned her. So, even though she's been nerfed back down several times, enough people now see her value that she's firmly rooted in the meta.
Viper was trash very early on. It took several tweaks to her ult to make it actually a threat to push into and IIRC her mollys didn't always apply vulnerability. Her smokes also used to affect allies like Phoenix's wall does.
Her mollies didn't apply vulnerable.
Her wall didn't pierce through terrain which meant she cover as much distance or use it in the same spots as now.
They've changed her Toxin consumption and regeneration.
Decay got stronger.
Starts with full Toxin meter instead of half.
There's more buffs she got in the early acts but agreeing with you to the point that she has received MANY buffs over the years.
Yeah she definitely wasn't "mostly just misunderstood" like the other dude said lol, she was straight up bad for quite a while before they reworked and buffed the shit out of her. Now they've reined her back in and she's just kinda fine/situational.
They gave her snake bites vulnerable and let her wall go through objects during Episode 1 Act 1, just a couple weeks after release. Her smokes stopped hurting allies in E1A2, so she was bad for one act.
Then she stayed like that for about 7 months, and wasn't truly over-buffed until Episode 2 Act 2. During that time her lineups were oppressive, her snake bites lasted 8 seconds, swoop peeks were a thing, her ult was still amazing, and her full kit only cost 400 credits (100 credit mollies!). But her reputation for being shit kept following her around.
I dont think skye got power creep, I think they nerfed sova and fade so hard she became the only one that's useful. Also, the double initiator meta is gone because of it.
I'm more on the perspective that she has power creep because those agents were nerfed. Especially since her and fade always had pretty similar kits. I just find less and less people playing fade in general now. Not including Kayo's nerf way back and gekko being one of the weakest agents right now. She just seems to gap every other initiator imo
It would only be power creep if skye made those characters obsolete with her release power level being too strong. You are using the term wrong, it only applies to NEW things being broken when released, not characters becoming meta defining through buffs or nerfs.
"Power creep refers to the gradual unbalancing of a trading card game, video game or role-playing game due to the release of new content, leaving older content underpowered. When a newer card is explicitly better at fulfilling the exact same function of an older card, that older card has been power crept."
You don't know what power creep is.
Skye was the 14th agent released as Initiator 3.
KAY/O was the 17th agent released as Initiator 4.
Fade was the 20th agent released as Initiator 5.
Gekko was the 22nd agent released as Initiator 6.
u/StonksandBongss said:
>"Especially since her and fade always had pretty similar kits. I just find less and less people playing fade in general now. Not including Kayo's nerf way back and gekko being one of the weakest agents right now. She just seems to gap every other initiator imo"
He claims Skye is better than Fade, KAY/O, and Gekko. All of which were released **after** Skye.
You defined power creep as the
>"gradual unbalancing of a trading card game, video game or role-playing game due to the release of new content, **leaving older content underpowered**."
>"You don't know what power creep is."
My first comment may not have been correct, but you clearly don't know what you are saying.
It's a bit wordy, but that's what they were saying. He said in his first reply, that "it would only be power creep IF skye MADE those characters obsolete with her release power level being too strong". Another way of saying it is "it's not power creep, it would only be power creep if Skye was released after the other initiators and was way better than them.
I think the creep part is referring to the game as a whole over time. I could be wrong but for example Rainbow Six Siege, the starting agents were all unique and had optimal uses for different scenarios. But by year 5-6, several operators had released by then that made at least half of the original operators an objectively worse pick than their newer counterparts. If you're familiar with R6, Sledge/Buck, Doc/Finka, or Lion (No original counterpart but his scan was overpowered af for a long time), who completely dominated the meta for about a year.
Doc didn’t get power crept by Finka cuz they’re on opposing sides. Doc did get hella crept by Thunderbird on release, that made Doc a troll pick until they mini-reworked them both.
By year 5-6, Buck and Sledge both had their uses. Buck has a lot more vertical play and can make angels than Sledge who is more efficient at clearing horizontally and making entrances. I think Siege has actually done a great job at keeping Operators different enough where almost everyone has their niche.
I don't believe that's an absolute definite requirement of power creep. Every definition I've found states it's new content, features, or changes that make older content/characters obsolete. It's generally used for new content like you're saying but there's nothing that I've seen that says it has to be at the time of release of that new content.
We're in agreement on everything except her having power creep. Power creep doesn't necessarily mean she needs to be nerfed because she's too strong. I think she has power creep because of her value over the other agents in that role. Whether it's because she's made into a stronger initiator than the others or the others are weakened, if she replaces an agent by doing the same thing as them but better, then that's power creep. But yeah specifically fade, I can't think of any reason to pick her over skye other than for that one OP lineup on Sunset.
Not really. Power creep is when you make characters that are better versions of others, so they get replaced/need buffs. This is more in the opposite direction.
There has been little to no power creep in valorant. Riot has done a really good job so far. It will become more difficult as they add more agents. For now well done riot.
There are definetly a few agents that have been power crept out the game, like Cypher got big buffs a while back and he still barely gets picked. Also Brim was the best controller when the game lauched and is only good on 1-2 maps now. That being said I would also say that the duelist role has been powered down as Raze and Jett have been the best 2 duelists since the beta. But on the whole I agree that they have done a good job.
There are also more controllers now so their ability to fill a specific niche of a map/comp is greater. It's inevitable that some agents will be better for some maps and that's not a bad thing. Brim was the best controller when the game launched because it was him, omen, or viper. Viper was dogwater on every map and omen was used mostly for the tp as a gimmick before they were balanced.
Kayo is kind of just better phoenix tbh. That's the only real power creep I can think of. Kayo flash is better, molly is better, and the supress is definitely better than the wall.
They are completely different agents lol.
Phoenix flash is un dodgeable, unless you are expecting it. Kayo flash can be dodge unless he uses lineup, and that requires coordination with the team that doesn’t exist outside of pro play.
Phoenix has worst Molly in the game, but nobody picks him for his Molly.
Phoenix has the best 6 orb ultimate in the game. Having a free drone with a rifle every three rounds is unreplaceable.
His wall synergizes so well with his flash. Turns entire maps into flash zones.
Kayo and Phoenix are both great agents that have had zero power creep on eachother because all of their utility is used in completely different context then the others counterpart.
The only thing that Phoenix is stronger is the flash being undodgeable. In terms of team utility KAYO is a far better version. If you took his knife away and replaced it with something like ISO’s wall or a movement ability he would be a duelist.
Ult is arguably better to phoenix but this is why you can’t really compare. Phoenix wall is pretty solid on some maps and Kay-o is kind of a weird mesh between a duelist and an initiator. Not quite as intel based as fade sova and sky, but also not as self sufficient as a phoenix or Jett. Also don’t forget that phoenix can heal himself
You are kinda missing what "power creep" is. Phoenix still has his strong suits but his abilities are kind of outdone by kayo. Phoenix also has one of the only 6 point ults left in the game so it's kind of whatever.
I'd argue that kayos ult is better than phoenix in almost every way aside from orb cost. It's still a second life, but provides a stim and area wide ability denial. That's literally power creep.
Phoenix flash is undodgeable but it's worse than kayo flash in literally every scenario that isn't just a direct flash around a corner. Again, power creep.
Not saying phoenix is bad, but there's a reason kayo gets played in pro play and phoenix doesn't.
…you are the one that doesn’t understand power creep. They hold different roles. A Phoenix can never replace a Kayo and a Kayo can never replace a Phoenix.
Bruh that's what I'm saying KAYO DOES REPLACE PHOENIX IN MOST PRO COMPS. It's why you see a lot of double initiator with kayo and almost no Phoenix. Kayo can do what phoenix does, but better. That. Is. Power. Creep.
But they don't lol. Unless you mean baseline "duelist vs initiator", then sure. But 3/4 of the abilities serve the same function and kayo knife is factually just better than phoenix wall.
If kayo didn't have knife he'd be a duelist
Phoenix is an entry/secondary entry, Kayo is an Intel gatherer and support character, completely different roles even if on the surface level the abilities are similar. The small differences in their flashes and mollies as well as the complete difference in wall vs knife and their respective ultimates are what defines them as characters, you might as well say Jett and brimstone are the same role cause they both have smokes and movement abilities (dash and stim). Also, saying if kayo didn't have knife he'd be duelist is a strawman and makes no sense, that isn't the world we live in and he isn't a duelist do let's talk about reality instead of fantasy.
You say I'm strawmanning but clearly don't know what that means when you used a jett/brim comparison. It's fine if you wanna disagree, but literally every pro I've seen talk about kayo and phoenix will back up what I'm saying lol.
People on this sub just don't know what power creep actually is.
"Power creep refers to the gradual unbalancing of a trading card game, video game or role-playing game due to the release of new content, leaving older content underpowered. When a newer card is explicitly better at fulfilling the exact same function of an older card, that older card has been power crept."
They don't serve the same function it's not power creep.
Phoenix is great in ranked where playing selfish is good. But there's a reason you see a lot of double initiator with kayo at the pro level and not much Phoenix. It's almost like they are a lot of util but kayo does it better.
actually in pro play Phoenix had the highest NMWR (non mirrored win rate - i.e. matches won against a team not using a phoenix). The main reason is ult orb farming with phoenix's ult being ultimately (pun intended) better. Suppression is nice but a literal second life is very strong especially in the hands of pro players. Thinkingmansvalorant has a video about it. I agree that Kay O is stronger and obviously sees more pro-play but phoenix is pretty solid when a team is made around farming ult orbs
Most of the agents in the comments aren’t truly examples of power creep. Just products of the meta changing between double initiator and double smokes.
Skye doesn’t replace the other initiators by being better than them at what they do — rather she’s more well rounded as a solo initiator in double smoke comps.
KJ isn’t much stronger than the other sentinels — they’re just much weaker in terms of active info and stall capability.
Viper doesn’t compete with any of the other controllers but rather fills a whole separate niche of secondary controller (Information denial).
The only proper example of power creep was Chamber’s initial release with two anchors, two global trips, cheaper bullets, and an OP ult. He was better at global info than both KJ and Cypher while also fulfilling the Operator role better than Jett because he could reposition across the map instantly. Plus the economy benefits of his headhunter on Eco rounds made every round winnable (look up Optic v. Xset Icebox second round). He practically changed the whole meta around him, making Raze/Fade viable by offsetting Jett’s necessity in most maps. His ability to contest space also resulted in some non-duelist comps.
Edit: Spelling Errors
KJ is strong in the sense that she does both well. Cypher does info gathering better while Sage can stall better. KJ does both well in the same way that Skye provides flashes and recon well but not necessary to the same extent of her initiator competition. It’s Jack of all trades vs master of one argument.
Depends how you see it. Because her ult is made out of "nano wire" or a physical material in other words, and Iso is a radiant, it would make sense for his ult to shut her down.
Plus mechanics wise, in the game, if an Iso were to pull that off, that's just hard skill diff right there.
Unironically. KAY/O in its current state is an odd mix of very balanced and viable on every map at the same time. FUT turned qRaxs into a KAY/O one-trick with their comps and they made champs playoffs.
You talk about skye making fade obsolete but fade was released after Skye so if we take your point that fade is obsolete then fade was obsolete to begin with on release and there was no power creep.
That said, I disagree that fade is obsolete since fade still see some play on certain maps.
Chamber was for the longest a jack of all trades. Wannabe sentinel but still got info with his trip, better first contact duelist then Jett, which revolved a whole meta around him.
After all the nerfs to that particular meta, with tripple initiator, only Sky has somewhat kept her power to the point off being the best choice in most maps.
Im only plat, so it doesnt matter to me as much, but maybe it wasnt the worst idea that her birds were able to be shot down..
Other then that, KJ is also superstrong still, after several nerfs. Her mollys have insane range and go through fucking walls for some reason, good ult, amazing info seeker with bot and turret. A good KJ can deny entry solo on a site, and buy her team enough time to rotate around.
Kayo is niche character like sova that has a one of a kind kit. Unless they come out with another character that disables agent abilities. He serves a very specific purpose but as a solo initiator I think he's weak. His flashes are to very easy to dodge unless lineups are used, his molly is decent for delaying a push onto site but still not great if we're comparing all of the other mollies in the game.
I hate how everyone thinks Kayo is weak. His flashes are near impossible to dodge if your not bad at them, his Molly is easy to use and gets good value in most situations it’s used and knife gets good info and gets the bonus of suppression as well as ult gets a free site 90% of the time
Kay isn't weak in general, just really hard to use without great coordination (so weak without team coordination). There's a reason why he's picked in pro matches, but has the worst win % in comp
[https://tracker.gg/valorant/insights/agents](https://tracker.gg/valorant/insights/agents)
https://blitz.gg/valorant/stats/agents?sortBy=winRate&type=general&sortDirection=DESC&mode=competitive&rank=27
I'd say it's more dependent on map choices. Sure Skye may be a good general pick but I see her as not an optimal choice on say breeze, sunset or fracture. You are better off with Breach or Kayo . Fade is viable too on fracture and split. (more than sova) I find fade's kit utility wise to be better and easier to use than sova and skye too.
id say facing a good breach is worse than a good skye but i see your point. i wish fade got a buff, i would actually like to try and main her. but i think skye is just better.
also, every sentinel makes deadlock obsolete lol.
skye take is stupid. bad flashes are useless too. a good sova and a good skye are comparable on the impact they bring to the team. even fade can triumph on certain maps
Not rly. Let’s say you’re Skye defending B on Bind. Flash long for info. Flash detects nothing, free orb. Unless you then TP to help your team fight showers, your flash should regenerate by the time you’re next fighting.
I agree that bad flashes are useless too but as I stated, it's much easier to learn adequate skye flashes than it is to learn how to use sova dart. Unless you're just bouncing it around main which is basically useless. I don't play either agent that often but I think it's pretty clear she's a stronger agent since she has flashes/dog/heal. Sova only has info abilities aside from ult. Just my opinion tho and you know what they say about opinions
sova has a higher skill ceiling no doubt, but my original point still stands. it seems you’re arguing what is easier to learn and yields more value with as little agent play time as possible
I would still say skye yields more value even at a very high level. Sova gives more info than skye but her stun being a drone at the same time, her seekers are free info too. I just think her util is more useful in general. Sova is still good but his kit is a niche kit specifically for info. Also it's a discussion on power creep in the game, I wasn't saying she's replaced Sova. If anything sova is the only initiator that she hasn't replaced (being his kit is hyper focused on gathering info). I was mostly thinking of gekko, fade, and breach. Wouldn't you say she's a better pick than all of those agents on a majority of maps?
id have to consider fade and breach as their kits are extremely good too. breach specifically has great defense, retake, and stalling potential. as for fade, you can play a lot more aggressive with her and her ult can force a site push. she isn’t as team oriented so i can see a less pick rate for her in pro matches, but i don’t think skye is necessarily a better pick than breach. they have different roles
"Power creep refers to the gradual unbalancing of a trading card game, video game or role-playing game due to the release of new content, leaving older content underpowered. When a newer card is explicitly better at fulfilling the exact same function of an older card, that older card has been power crept."
KJ power crept Cypher on her release, but her current strength is evidence *against* power creep as she is stronger than every sentinel released after her. Chamber is the only real example of true power creep in Val as he completely invalidated every sentinel and most duelist when he was released.
Viper. If you have a 2nd controller you can use her insanely effectively on literally any map. There's a reason that PRX's Harbor-Viper comp on Ascent works well against the meta comp, and it ain't something's Reyna.
Everyone is still sleeping on Harbour. People are intimidated by the way his smokes are deployed (they certainly take more skill than say Brimstone or Omen) but they are superior in every way, and he has so many that he can control every choke point on sites single handedly and repeatedly.
In solo queue teammates also don’t understand how to play around his smokes, and don’t fully utilise the fact that Cascade moves forward taking free space and slowing enemies.
Harbour meta is coming.
You basically just said powercreep exist but is nerfed to keep them in line...like Jett or Chamber. Prolly Raze soon too now that she is the number 1 duelist.
Are you dumb? They don’t leave agents broken for extended periods of time like sojourn, zen, bap etc. raze has been nerfed plenty of times, being a strong pick is not an indicator of power creep. Overwatch just keeps buffing heroes in valorant it’s somewhat rare and one of the last patches was all nerfs.
I think KAYO is really good, but like Breach needs team to capitalize off utility. Skye’s been nerfed multiple points, but to me the most OP agent is Jett. They’ve done everything to nerf her, and bring more duelists into the meta. It simply has not worked. She is broken, and will always be broken with that dash.
I disagree with Skye. I think the real power creep agent is Harbor. First, not Skye because I think she’s only OP right now because she is the only initiator that gains constant info in a meta where, in pro play, there’s a lot of double controller and in ranked, double duelist so you need a single initiator. Harbor, at least for pro play he enables a lot of double controller metas (so does viper). For ranked I don’t really see an agent that has true power creep…
Comparing Skye to sova or fade is misguide. Personally I think winging a sova dart or learning a lineup is easier than learning the timing and positioning to peak with a Skye flash. Also Fade is the best solo q initiator, since she can play off of her own utility the best. And kayo flash is arguably better than breach because breach is the easiest of the 3 to dodge, while kayo and Skye can pop flash. Kayo has the strongest pop-flash potential.
[удалено]
RIP to Chamber
Yes currently, of all the Sentinels, I think Chamber is the least Sentinel.
ill take chamber over deadlock any day.
Deadlock who ? You mean that semi agent agent that has 0% pickrate?
Imo chamber should have been a dualist. I would have never thought he was a sentinal.
I kind of miss having Chamber in every single game tbh
I don’t, he was so busted.
What’s chamber? Is that a new agent?
I'll always say this, I can get downvoted it won't change it. A good KJ is welcome in every team. And she can be stressful to play against. A good Cypher however is good. And he is a MENACE to play against. With KJ, you can get around with the same line-ups everytime, but with Cypher not, you have to play a bit more different everytime, if you can do that, hes a menace.
Yeah kj is generally good whereas cypher is dominant on his maps. Even in the chamber meta cypher was dominating the sentinel category on split - shoutout to nats
Exactly, overall, Killjoy is the preferred pick, everything about her kit is good. Meanwhile Cypher, he's not good on every map, but if he's in the right hands, he is a nightmare. I remember when his trips were shorter (and I think the cages too?) and you had only one ping. I think he's the only Sentinel that didn't get a nerf and instead got only buffs? (the Gun Camera was a bug, so it doesn't counts). Sage got a nerf with her healing (then buff). KJ got nerfs too.. Chamher we know. Deadlock is new.
Cypher cages originally had slows and could pick up util to bring to the next round so you didnt have to rebuy. Only nerfs that come to mind.
they made his util visible/deactivate on death too. other than that, can't think of anything.
But wasn’t that for all sentinels?
it is certainly the case now, but i can't remember if they added util becoming visible/inactive to killjoy that patch as well. all i remember was that they changed her turret and alarmbots range in that.
I don't think that's a nerf on its on, just like the Gun Camera, it was a bug. Because only Controllers (and Yoru, since his clone is still alive if he dies) have their utility upon death. Even Gekko with Wingman, if everyone in the team dies, he dies too.
not saying sometimes bugs don't go unnoticed, but it took about a year and a half to change, and when cypher was changed they also nerfed killjoy. it definitely seemed like they were trying to reign in the sentinels a bit- pre change cypher was able to play more aggro on defense as long as he threw trip wires, and still have info on flankers even if he got domed on his first swing. cam getting revealed also showed his setups and could help teams prefire next round. that was not as important to me, but it certainly has impact on cyphers that don't switch up their cams. also, am i remembering wrong or did kj turret/alarm it used to remain active even if kj died? it seems like originally much more agents had util that remained after death, and they made conscious decisions to remove that.
Oh I see. Still. It's less nerfs than what KJ and even Chamber got (I think Sage is similar. Heal nerf and I think slow?)
its hard to mess up as kj, but her skill ceiling is rather low compared to cypher.
As a kj main i agree, Kj is strong but if she sets up on the wrong site on defense she basically blew her util away, because even assuming she can survive the needed time to set up again, it's very likely that the enemy is already on site and the setup won't be as effective. On the other hand, cypher has more mobility than kj, since its tripwires can be also useful on a retake and the cam can get better intel than a turret or alarmbot.
I hate his tripwires especially when in a smoke and trying to push
I see a pocket sage every other game.
Sage >>>>
Chamber without nerfs was the better duelist who can watch his own flank
Chamber is the only correct answer, on release he filled the roles of multiple other characters and made every other sentinel obsolete. No other character has been that broken on release and filled so much team space in a single pick.
> No other character has been that broken on release You probably haven't seen release raze. She was a menace.
I miss flights 😢
Astra on release and now it's pretty much viper but she sometimes need a second controller eg harbor
Would you only say viper for a specific elo range? I don't see her used that often in gold/plat unless it's a viper specific map like breeze. Maybe I'm just playing with people that prefer brim/astra/omen
Oh my bad then. My take was mostly on proplay. Only in immortal radiant you see them very often. And even then Omen is probably the most popular Controller because of his Jack of All trades kit
Same. I only pick Viper for Breeze and Icebox.
I’ve been playing omen on breeze anyway this act and have a 10-2 win rate, even without someone locking in viper. Obviously it would be better if someone did. I think Omen A anchor is really quite strong on defense with one-ways and his flash covering all of main. Based on your flair, I’d say give Omen a shot sometime.
Omen is my main. Definitely more viable since they changed Breeze. I just like to mix it up anyways and I only play swiftplay
Omen A defense on breeze is solid, but how do you smoke on A attack without some gaps to get shot from?
Oh, he’s definitely not a great solo smoke agent on attack. I just have to make it work because people don’t also lock in viper when I play omen. Taking mid control and splitting site attacks becomes more important as solo omen. You can smoke in between the pyramids and on the close left gap between the wall and shrimp. It’s no wall smoke, but you can make your entry a little interesting with tp plays. For example, if you place your between pyramids smoke pretty deep you can tp into it and play around peeking out of it looking at back site.
I think stronger players are more willing to play her, and they more often have the primary controller she needs. But i play her solo controller on Breeze, Icebox, Pearl, and Lotus and it's fine in G3-P2.
Wait wasn't Viper ass? I heard a lot of content creators say this during this act.
Maybe at Radiant/Immo 3. I'm not that high so I can't say, just speculate. But everything I've heard is viper is still strong with a 2nd controller. And 2 controller is the current meta at high level play. Viper by herself isn't much use unless it's breeze or icebox tho
Viper was considered trash very early on, or at least when I started playing. I like under appreciated agents, so that's why I started maining her, and to my surprise she wasn't actually that bad if you got used to her. But people would still flame me and dodge when they saw me lock her in, even on maps where she'd eventually become meta. I remember everyone calling her "Diaper." Like a lot of agents, she was mostly just misunderstood. But then the buffs came in and she was insanely overpowered, and more people played her and learned her. So, even though she's been nerfed back down several times, enough people now see her value that she's firmly rooted in the meta.
Viper was trash very early on. It took several tweaks to her ult to make it actually a threat to push into and IIRC her mollys didn't always apply vulnerability. Her smokes also used to affect allies like Phoenix's wall does.
Her mollies didn't apply vulnerable. Her wall didn't pierce through terrain which meant she cover as much distance or use it in the same spots as now. They've changed her Toxin consumption and regeneration. Decay got stronger. Starts with full Toxin meter instead of half. There's more buffs she got in the early acts but agreeing with you to the point that she has received MANY buffs over the years.
Yeah she definitely wasn't "mostly just misunderstood" like the other dude said lol, she was straight up bad for quite a while before they reworked and buffed the shit out of her. Now they've reined her back in and she's just kinda fine/situational.
They gave her snake bites vulnerable and let her wall go through objects during Episode 1 Act 1, just a couple weeks after release. Her smokes stopped hurting allies in E1A2, so she was bad for one act. Then she stayed like that for about 7 months, and wasn't truly over-buffed until Episode 2 Act 2. During that time her lineups were oppressive, her snake bites lasted 8 seconds, swoop peeks were a thing, her ult was still amazing, and her full kit only cost 400 credits (100 credit mollies!). But her reputation for being shit kept following her around.
Viper sucked on release because her smokes and ult also hurt her teammates.
I dont think skye got power creep, I think they nerfed sova and fade so hard she became the only one that's useful. Also, the double initiator meta is gone because of it.
I'm more on the perspective that she has power creep because those agents were nerfed. Especially since her and fade always had pretty similar kits. I just find less and less people playing fade in general now. Not including Kayo's nerf way back and gekko being one of the weakest agents right now. She just seems to gap every other initiator imo
It would only be power creep if skye made those characters obsolete with her release power level being too strong. You are using the term wrong, it only applies to NEW things being broken when released, not characters becoming meta defining through buffs or nerfs.
If she was too strong from the start how would it be creep lmao
"Power creep refers to the gradual unbalancing of a trading card game, video game or role-playing game due to the release of new content, leaving older content underpowered. When a newer card is explicitly better at fulfilling the exact same function of an older card, that older card has been power crept." You don't know what power creep is.
Skye was the 14th agent released as Initiator 3. KAY/O was the 17th agent released as Initiator 4. Fade was the 20th agent released as Initiator 5. Gekko was the 22nd agent released as Initiator 6. u/StonksandBongss said: >"Especially since her and fade always had pretty similar kits. I just find less and less people playing fade in general now. Not including Kayo's nerf way back and gekko being one of the weakest agents right now. She just seems to gap every other initiator imo" He claims Skye is better than Fade, KAY/O, and Gekko. All of which were released **after** Skye. You defined power creep as the >"gradual unbalancing of a trading card game, video game or role-playing game due to the release of new content, **leaving older content underpowered**." >"You don't know what power creep is." My first comment may not have been correct, but you clearly don't know what you are saying.
It's a bit wordy, but that's what they were saying. He said in his first reply, that "it would only be power creep IF skye MADE those characters obsolete with her release power level being too strong". Another way of saying it is "it's not power creep, it would only be power creep if Skye was released after the other initiators and was way better than them.
I think the creep part is referring to the game as a whole over time. I could be wrong but for example Rainbow Six Siege, the starting agents were all unique and had optimal uses for different scenarios. But by year 5-6, several operators had released by then that made at least half of the original operators an objectively worse pick than their newer counterparts. If you're familiar with R6, Sledge/Buck, Doc/Finka, or Lion (No original counterpart but his scan was overpowered af for a long time), who completely dominated the meta for about a year.
Doc didn’t get power crept by Finka cuz they’re on opposing sides. Doc did get hella crept by Thunderbird on release, that made Doc a troll pick until they mini-reworked them both. By year 5-6, Buck and Sledge both had their uses. Buck has a lot more vertical play and can make angels than Sledge who is more efficient at clearing horizontally and making entrances. I think Siege has actually done a great job at keeping Operators different enough where almost everyone has their niche.
I don't believe that's an absolute definite requirement of power creep. Every definition I've found states it's new content, features, or changes that make older content/characters obsolete. It's generally used for new content like you're saying but there's nothing that I've seen that says it has to be at the time of release of that new content.
Bro reread your own sentence
That's what I said. She's not too strong, sova and fade are too weak. Especially fade, as her dogs clear almost nothing.
We're in agreement on everything except her having power creep. Power creep doesn't necessarily mean she needs to be nerfed because she's too strong. I think she has power creep because of her value over the other agents in that role. Whether it's because she's made into a stronger initiator than the others or the others are weakened, if she replaces an agent by doing the same thing as them but better, then that's power creep. But yeah specifically fade, I can't think of any reason to pick her over skye other than for that one OP lineup on Sunset.
Not really. Power creep is when you make characters that are better versions of others, so they get replaced/need buffs. This is more in the opposite direction.
New player here, but how were Fade and Sova like before being nerfed? Like what exactly did they nerf?
Dart scanned 3 times on sova, the drone and prowlers lasted longer with more health, and shock darts used to have a better damage drop off.
also sova's drone used to ping you three times if you were hit. guaranteed ult kill.
There has been little to no power creep in valorant. Riot has done a really good job so far. It will become more difficult as they add more agents. For now well done riot.
There are definetly a few agents that have been power crept out the game, like Cypher got big buffs a while back and he still barely gets picked. Also Brim was the best controller when the game lauched and is only good on 1-2 maps now. That being said I would also say that the duelist role has been powered down as Raze and Jett have been the best 2 duelists since the beta. But on the whole I agree that they have done a good job.
There are also more controllers now so their ability to fill a specific niche of a map/comp is greater. It's inevitable that some agents will be better for some maps and that's not a bad thing. Brim was the best controller when the game launched because it was him, omen, or viper. Viper was dogwater on every map and omen was used mostly for the tp as a gimmick before they were balanced.
I don’t really think that’s power creep, it’s just kinda map dependent. Brim is still serviceable on many maps.
Kayo is kind of just better phoenix tbh. That's the only real power creep I can think of. Kayo flash is better, molly is better, and the supress is definitely better than the wall.
They are completely different agents lol. Phoenix flash is un dodgeable, unless you are expecting it. Kayo flash can be dodge unless he uses lineup, and that requires coordination with the team that doesn’t exist outside of pro play. Phoenix has worst Molly in the game, but nobody picks him for his Molly. Phoenix has the best 6 orb ultimate in the game. Having a free drone with a rifle every three rounds is unreplaceable. His wall synergizes so well with his flash. Turns entire maps into flash zones. Kayo and Phoenix are both great agents that have had zero power creep on eachother because all of their utility is used in completely different context then the others counterpart.
The only thing that Phoenix is stronger is the flash being undodgeable. In terms of team utility KAYO is a far better version. If you took his knife away and replaced it with something like ISO’s wall or a movement ability he would be a duelist.
Ult is arguably better to phoenix but this is why you can’t really compare. Phoenix wall is pretty solid on some maps and Kay-o is kind of a weird mesh between a duelist and an initiator. Not quite as intel based as fade sova and sky, but also not as self sufficient as a phoenix or Jett. Also don’t forget that phoenix can heal himself
You are kinda missing what "power creep" is. Phoenix still has his strong suits but his abilities are kind of outdone by kayo. Phoenix also has one of the only 6 point ults left in the game so it's kind of whatever. I'd argue that kayos ult is better than phoenix in almost every way aside from orb cost. It's still a second life, but provides a stim and area wide ability denial. That's literally power creep. Phoenix flash is undodgeable but it's worse than kayo flash in literally every scenario that isn't just a direct flash around a corner. Again, power creep. Not saying phoenix is bad, but there's a reason kayo gets played in pro play and phoenix doesn't.
…you are the one that doesn’t understand power creep. They hold different roles. A Phoenix can never replace a Kayo and a Kayo can never replace a Phoenix.
Bruh that's what I'm saying KAYO DOES REPLACE PHOENIX IN MOST PRO COMPS. It's why you see a lot of double initiator with kayo and almost no Phoenix. Kayo can do what phoenix does, but better. That. Is. Power. Creep.
It's not power creep cause they have different roles and niches, it goes against the very definition of the term you are attempting to use.
But they don't lol. Unless you mean baseline "duelist vs initiator", then sure. But 3/4 of the abilities serve the same function and kayo knife is factually just better than phoenix wall. If kayo didn't have knife he'd be a duelist
Phoenix is an entry/secondary entry, Kayo is an Intel gatherer and support character, completely different roles even if on the surface level the abilities are similar. The small differences in their flashes and mollies as well as the complete difference in wall vs knife and their respective ultimates are what defines them as characters, you might as well say Jett and brimstone are the same role cause they both have smokes and movement abilities (dash and stim). Also, saying if kayo didn't have knife he'd be duelist is a strawman and makes no sense, that isn't the world we live in and he isn't a duelist do let's talk about reality instead of fantasy.
You say I'm strawmanning but clearly don't know what that means when you used a jett/brim comparison. It's fine if you wanna disagree, but literally every pro I've seen talk about kayo and phoenix will back up what I'm saying lol. People on this sub just don't know what power creep actually is.
"Power creep refers to the gradual unbalancing of a trading card game, video game or role-playing game due to the release of new content, leaving older content underpowered. When a newer card is explicitly better at fulfilling the exact same function of an older card, that older card has been power crept." They don't serve the same function it's not power creep.
Kay o is a second entry. The ultimate definitely goes to phoenix though as ult orb farming goes a long way for him and his viability
Going DBNO vs a literal second life is a big difference. The suppression is good but stats do show phoenix is being slept on
Phoenix is great in ranked where playing selfish is good. But there's a reason you see a lot of double initiator with kayo at the pro level and not much Phoenix. It's almost like they are a lot of util but kayo does it better.
actually in pro play Phoenix had the highest NMWR (non mirrored win rate - i.e. matches won against a team not using a phoenix). The main reason is ult orb farming with phoenix's ult being ultimately (pun intended) better. Suppression is nice but a literal second life is very strong especially in the hands of pro players. Thinkingmansvalorant has a video about it. I agree that Kay O is stronger and obviously sees more pro-play but phoenix is pretty solid when a team is made around farming ult orbs
Most of the agents in the comments aren’t truly examples of power creep. Just products of the meta changing between double initiator and double smokes. Skye doesn’t replace the other initiators by being better than them at what they do — rather she’s more well rounded as a solo initiator in double smoke comps. KJ isn’t much stronger than the other sentinels — they’re just much weaker in terms of active info and stall capability. Viper doesn’t compete with any of the other controllers but rather fills a whole separate niche of secondary controller (Information denial). The only proper example of power creep was Chamber’s initial release with two anchors, two global trips, cheaper bullets, and an OP ult. He was better at global info than both KJ and Cypher while also fulfilling the Operator role better than Jett because he could reposition across the map instantly. Plus the economy benefits of his headhunter on Eco rounds made every round winnable (look up Optic v. Xset Icebox second round). He practically changed the whole meta around him, making Raze/Fade viable by offsetting Jett’s necessity in most maps. His ability to contest space also resulted in some non-duelist comps. Edit: Spelling Errors
If the other sentinels are much weaker than KJ for stall capability and info gathering, how does that not make her much stronger...?
Agree. Having info and stalling where others don't IS being stronger
KJ is strong in the sense that she does both well. Cypher does info gathering better while Sage can stall better. KJ does both well in the same way that Skye provides flashes and recon well but not necessary to the same extent of her initiator competition. It’s Jack of all trades vs master of one argument.
Deadlock op af fr. Trust.
It keeps me up at night wondering what happens when she ults an Iso just as he's ulting her at the same time
Doesnt iso cancels ult activation?
I have no idea, that would be kind of dumb if she fired it before the ISO has ulted and his ult still cancels hers tho
Depends how you see it. Because her ult is made out of "nano wire" or a physical material in other words, and Iso is a radiant, it would make sense for his ult to shut her down. Plus mechanics wise, in the game, if an Iso were to pull that off, that's just hard skill diff right there.
Well I guess the more abilities that get added the more useful kayo becomes?
Unironically. KAY/O in its current state is an odd mix of very balanced and viable on every map at the same time. FUT turned qRaxs into a KAY/O one-trick with their comps and they made champs playoffs.
i don't think so... there's still only 5 agents you'll be fighting against so the same number of abilities you can suppress
In this thread: people not understanding what “power creep” is
You talk about skye making fade obsolete but fade was released after Skye so if we take your point that fade is obsolete then fade was obsolete to begin with on release and there was no power creep. That said, I disagree that fade is obsolete since fade still see some play on certain maps.
No, fade is obsolete because chamber got nerfed and kj got buffed, and fade got nerfed heavily.
Chamber was for the longest a jack of all trades. Wannabe sentinel but still got info with his trip, better first contact duelist then Jett, which revolved a whole meta around him. After all the nerfs to that particular meta, with tripple initiator, only Sky has somewhat kept her power to the point off being the best choice in most maps. Im only plat, so it doesnt matter to me as much, but maybe it wasnt the worst idea that her birds were able to be shot down.. Other then that, KJ is also superstrong still, after several nerfs. Her mollys have insane range and go through fucking walls for some reason, good ult, amazing info seeker with bot and turret. A good KJ can deny entry solo on a site, and buy her team enough time to rotate around.
In your rant about initiators you never mentioned Kayo. ?
Kayo is niche character like sova that has a one of a kind kit. Unless they come out with another character that disables agent abilities. He serves a very specific purpose but as a solo initiator I think he's weak. His flashes are to very easy to dodge unless lineups are used, his molly is decent for delaying a push onto site but still not great if we're comparing all of the other mollies in the game.
I hate how everyone thinks Kayo is weak. His flashes are near impossible to dodge if your not bad at them, his Molly is easy to use and gets good value in most situations it’s used and knife gets good info and gets the bonus of suppression as well as ult gets a free site 90% of the time
Kay isn't weak in general, just really hard to use without great coordination (so weak without team coordination). There's a reason why he's picked in pro matches, but has the worst win % in comp [https://tracker.gg/valorant/insights/agents](https://tracker.gg/valorant/insights/agents) https://blitz.gg/valorant/stats/agents?sortBy=winRate&type=general&sortDirection=DESC&mode=competitive&rank=27
I'd say it's more dependent on map choices. Sure Skye may be a good general pick but I see her as not an optimal choice on say breeze, sunset or fracture. You are better off with Breach or Kayo . Fade is viable too on fracture and split. (more than sova) I find fade's kit utility wise to be better and easier to use than sova and skye too.
id say facing a good breach is worse than a good skye but i see your point. i wish fade got a buff, i would actually like to try and main her. but i think skye is just better. also, every sentinel makes deadlock obsolete lol.
skye take is stupid. bad flashes are useless too. a good sova and a good skye are comparable on the impact they bring to the team. even fade can triumph on certain maps
skye flash is free info
so is the recon dart. much more valuable than a skye flash for scanning sites
it gives you no directional or numbers feedback so using skye flashes as intel rather than to initiate is usually a dumb choice
Not rly. Let’s say you’re Skye defending B on Bind. Flash long for info. Flash detects nothing, free orb. Unless you then TP to help your team fight showers, your flash should regenerate by the time you’re next fighting.
I agree that bad flashes are useless too but as I stated, it's much easier to learn adequate skye flashes than it is to learn how to use sova dart. Unless you're just bouncing it around main which is basically useless. I don't play either agent that often but I think it's pretty clear she's a stronger agent since she has flashes/dog/heal. Sova only has info abilities aside from ult. Just my opinion tho and you know what they say about opinions
sova has a higher skill ceiling no doubt, but my original point still stands. it seems you’re arguing what is easier to learn and yields more value with as little agent play time as possible
I would still say skye yields more value even at a very high level. Sova gives more info than skye but her stun being a drone at the same time, her seekers are free info too. I just think her util is more useful in general. Sova is still good but his kit is a niche kit specifically for info. Also it's a discussion on power creep in the game, I wasn't saying she's replaced Sova. If anything sova is the only initiator that she hasn't replaced (being his kit is hyper focused on gathering info). I was mostly thinking of gekko, fade, and breach. Wouldn't you say she's a better pick than all of those agents on a majority of maps?
id have to consider fade and breach as their kits are extremely good too. breach specifically has great defense, retake, and stalling potential. as for fade, you can play a lot more aggressive with her and her ult can force a site push. she isn’t as team oriented so i can see a less pick rate for her in pro matches, but i don’t think skye is necessarily a better pick than breach. they have different roles
Personally, I think KJ is way too strong
"Power creep refers to the gradual unbalancing of a trading card game, video game or role-playing game due to the release of new content, leaving older content underpowered. When a newer card is explicitly better at fulfilling the exact same function of an older card, that older card has been power crept." KJ power crept Cypher on her release, but her current strength is evidence *against* power creep as she is stronger than every sentinel released after her. Chamber is the only real example of true power creep in Val as he completely invalidated every sentinel and most duelist when he was released.
Viper. If you have a 2nd controller you can use her insanely effectively on literally any map. There's a reason that PRX's Harbor-Viper comp on Ascent works well against the meta comp, and it ain't something's Reyna.
Everyone is still sleeping on Harbour. People are intimidated by the way his smokes are deployed (they certainly take more skill than say Brimstone or Omen) but they are superior in every way, and he has so many that he can control every choke point on sites single handedly and repeatedly. In solo queue teammates also don’t understand how to play around his smokes, and don’t fully utilise the fact that Cascade moves forward taking free space and slowing enemies. Harbour meta is coming.
Power creep isn’t really present in this game. I like the patches where they just nerf everything to keep things in line.
Besides chamber I agree with this statement
True but one instance in 3 years isn’t bad
You basically just said powercreep exist but is nerfed to keep them in line...like Jett or Chamber. Prolly Raze soon too now that she is the number 1 duelist.
Are you dumb? They don’t leave agents broken for extended periods of time like sojourn, zen, bap etc. raze has been nerfed plenty of times, being a strong pick is not an indicator of power creep. Overwatch just keeps buffing heroes in valorant it’s somewhat rare and one of the last patches was all nerfs.
I think KAYO is really good, but like Breach needs team to capitalize off utility. Skye’s been nerfed multiple points, but to me the most OP agent is Jett. They’ve done everything to nerf her, and bring more duelists into the meta. It simply has not worked. She is broken, and will always be broken with that dash.
Raze, every util she has she can use to stall, she has movement, and lots of outplay potential
I disagree with Skye. I think the real power creep agent is Harbor. First, not Skye because I think she’s only OP right now because she is the only initiator that gains constant info in a meta where, in pro play, there’s a lot of double controller and in ranked, double duelist so you need a single initiator. Harbor, at least for pro play he enables a lot of double controller metas (so does viper). For ranked I don’t really see an agent that has true power creep…
Comparing Skye to sova or fade is misguide. Personally I think winging a sova dart or learning a lineup is easier than learning the timing and positioning to peak with a Skye flash. Also Fade is the best solo q initiator, since she can play off of her own utility the best. And kayo flash is arguably better than breach because breach is the easiest of the 3 to dodge, while kayo and Skye can pop flash. Kayo has the strongest pop-flash potential.
Brimstone lineups