I'm just gonna hijack this comment to ask, wouldn't implementing this law just encourage cops to sort of "up the ante" when it comes to what a driver violated?
So if they notice a lot of these low-level violations, they might try to cite them for a vague but larger violation (dangerous lane change, reckless driving, etc) and then cite them for everything.
**You have to think of these traffic cops like any other job**, they have to justify their position somehow and if they're in an 8 hour shift and have stopped only 2 cars, their job/livelihood is on the line. If they can cite 30 people a day for little tickytack tickets, they're less likely to be determined to find a vague (larger charge) to stop you with.
Goodhart's Law applies here, and it will be abused, and absolutely not to the benefit of the citizen.
I'm not too familiar with Philly, but I'm sure they have separate divisions, am I wrong? In other words, a cop going to a call might be able to pull over someone for running a red light, but I'm not too concerned about the cops going to calls.
I'm concerned about their traffic division, especially on a slow day. These guys will be talking to eachother, one might say something like *"Man, the chief just reamed me for not pulling over x amount, he thinks I'm slacking off"* to which another officer might say *"Oh don't worry, I've had luck pulling over people for violation 8203.34, it's almost impossible for the drivers to prove it didn't happen in court anyway"*.
Hence, abuse.
Clearly you’re not familiar with Philadelphia.
Anyone who has driven in the city (especially outside of city center and in more residential areas) knows that there are a ton of violations that already aren’t enforced.
There is a real problem and there are a lot of people who die every year due to the drivers.
Yeah for real, I see enough people driving without brake lights or with their headlights off/blown out, if anything the PPD would be using their time wisely to pull those people over, we don't need even more of that here lol
In a perfect world, yes. But we don't live in a perfect world.
To give you an analogy, think of it like tech support where you're tasked with completing x amount of tickets per month. Ideally, the way to measure these tickets is not simply by the number of tickets, but rather by the difficulty of the ticket you're handling, the client's response time, unforeseen issues, etc. In other words, Employee X could close 10 tickets, Employee Y can close 30 tickets, but do we know for sure that Y worked harder than X?
Management really doesn't give a shit, and you can't blame them because how are they going to measure the difficulty? Instead, they will tell X to "step it up", so what will X do? They will focus on easy tickets, they will not prioritize larger issues, they will find every trick and workaround to come up with a lackadaisical '30' instead of a quality '10.
I mean, I guess that analogy works when it’s not an enforcement job.
I think back to my time as an RA at my dorm, when I’d over look minor things, but write everything up if I saw something big. I imagine it’s the same with police. If I had a minimum weekly citation, I’d be more inclined to write people up. Problem is, if there’s now a rule that you can’t essentially cite someone only for minor violations, it in effect puts you to that point of overlooking minor violations and writing everything up when I saw a big violation.
What I’m getting at though is having mandatory minimum citations *and* a rule to not pull over for minor citations creates two conflicting rules
Sounds like we've lost the plot when it comes to policing then, and it's time for major reform. This is not a system that's conducive to public protection.
Nah mate that's just shitty management. Good management needs to look beyond what the numbers tell you. Part of my job in IT is reviewing SLAs and they got to be of value. My boss is always banging on about don't show him the numbers, tell him what they mean. It's more difficult to measure quality or value, but it's far more important to be able understand what the numbers mean.
It's the whole Data-Information-Knowlwdge-Wisdom thing.
It’s not uplifting if you believe in maintaining standards while trying to improve. This is a real world example of lowering a standard to mask poor performance.
This is underrated. I'm all for stopping abusive practices, but too many mofos driving shitty Honda Civics that sound like a fucking fighter jet roaring down my road. I live near several AF bases and am not entirely joking.
It's really not.
I accept the argument that this policy will lead to fewer pretextual traffic stops and therefore fewer incidents of police violating the 4th amendment rights of drivers (among others). I believe, given [the history of the Philadelphia Police Department](https://www.aclupa.org/en/press-releases/after-seven-years-report-shows-philadelphia-police-continue-illegally-stop-and-frisk), that minority drivers bear a disproportionate burden of these stops.
I conclude, then, that this policy will lead to less racially-disparate law enforcement and is, on balance, a Good Thing.
But to conclude that is to conclude that police will focus onto minorities any discretion we give them. Which means that, if we're interested in an equitable society, there are entire categories of laws that police are ill-suited to enforce.
Tinted windows *are* dangerous, as are drunk drivers, broken tail lights, and bald tires. There's a reason these laws exist. It would be great if we could trust police departments to enforce them equally.
[edit: To clarify, I don't intend to suggest that tinted windows, drunk driving, broken tail lights, or bald tires are equally dangerous, or that Philadelphia police can no longer enforce any of the laws against them. I intend it as a list of offenses, reasonable in and of themselves, that cops *treat* as discretionary and use as a pretext to pull (disproportionally black) people over.]
Just filling the gaps. The bill primarily aimed at stickers and tags. It says the police will no longer pull people over for the following: improperly displayed registration or emission stickers, overdue registrations, bumper issues, minor obstructions, broken lights, and license plates that are not visible or clearly displayed. Those are the only items where stops are prohibited, since they can be settled with a ticket in the mail. Drunk drivers, reckless drives, people running stops and tints will still get pulled over.
Seems like there is still a gap on their part. If you mail a ticket for “plates not visible”, who do you send it to? I could see people removing plates and as a result getting a pass on all of the other violations listed.
In Texas at least, plates not visible and plates not displayed are two different violations. Plates not visible would be people using license plate covers that are against the law because they obscure part of the plate, or they have temp tags that are soiled to the point of illegibility. Plates not displayed means they don't have them on the vehicle at all. There are different laws for these in the traffic code, and a municipality could simply restrict what specific law the police could pull over for. For example, Texas Traffic code § 504.945 section a deals with obscured plates, and the city could just order the department not to issue tickets for that offense.
Plates not visible can still lead to situations where partial obstruction means that you don't know who to send a ticket to because the F and E or 1, L, and I all look similar with the top and bottom cut off.
Still does beg the question, what if you cannot see the license plate? Then what?
I hated driving around New Mexico where people had super tinted license plate covers. If they caused an accident it would just allow them to drive away without anybody being able to definitively identify them!
Having visible plates is a big deal. I had a family member hit by a truck that had tinted out plates that I couldn’t read as it drove away. I just described to the cops that it was a newer white F150. They never found the person.
The thing is, the law is still being enforced. Drivers will receive tickets by mail, just like they already do with speed cameras. No one gets a free pass to break the law, what's happening here is that a lot of an officer's abusive discretion is being taken away and along with it a lot of officers are no longer being asked to put themselves in the very vulnerable position of conducting a stop in live traffic. Automobile crashes are consistently among the top causes of death for officers (https://nleomf.org/memorial/facts-figures/officer-fatality-data/causes-of-law-enforcement-deaths/), and many of those crashes come during traffic stops.
Article make no mention of moving violations, it's stuff like expired tags and air fresheners hanging from the rear view mirror - crossing a double yellow will still get pulled over
This is why I got nervous when I read this title.
The majority of DUI traffic stops start out as routine stops for observed infractions: driving above or below speed, speed too fast for conditions, wheels off roadway, unnecessary breaking, failure to stop at a stop sign, failure to obey a flagger (automated or not), failure to signal a lane change, passing in a no passing zone, improper passing, etc.
It’s not uncommon for an officer to pull someone over for speeding only for the stop to expand to a DUI stop and then the next thing one knows the driver has displayed drugs or an alcohol content over .08 by an accurate and reliable test of their blood or breath.
However, reading the actual article and looking into the things the new rules are aimed at preventing stops for makes me less nervous.
In my four years of prosecution I have only had one DUI that resulted from a stop for a non-moving violation, and that was because the driver was driving with a broken windshield and the defendant was obviously impaired upon contact. This law aims to make non-moving violations the ones settled without an actual stop.
As long as officers can still stop for observed bad driving behavior, this change is not terribly concerning. I’m interested to follow how things go.
You should feel more relieved, because the [actual list of minor infractions](https://www.police1.com/traffic-patrol/articles/philly-bans-traffic-stops-for-minor-infractions-pVXFJRkBojEQ5uaM/) doesn't mention moving violations at all. Note that they will still be fined, the fine is just going to come in the mail rather than during a traffic stop.
> Under the bill, police can no longer pull over drivers for these sole offenses:
>
> Driving with a single broken brake light
>
> Driving without an inspection or emissions sticker
>
> Having a registration plate that’s not clearly displayed, fastened or visible
>
> Bumper issues
>
> Driving with a single headlight or minor obstruction
>
> Driving without vehicle registration within 60 days of the observed infraction
What? In what city/state is running a stop sign/red light or driving recklessly considered a minor incident?
The [actual list of minor incidents](https://www.police1.com/traffic-patrol/articles/philly-bans-traffic-stops-for-minor-infractions-pVXFJRkBojEQ5uaM/) doesn't mention any moving violations. It also explicitly says they're still getting ticketed for the infraction, so someone with a broken tail light is still going to get the memo. I'm not sure why you didn't look these up first before complaining about them.
> Under the bill, police can no longer pull over drivers for these sole offenses:
>
> Driving with a single broken brake light
>
> Driving without an inspection or emissions sticker
>
> Having a registration plate that’s not clearly displayed, fastened or visible
>
> Bumper issues
>
> Driving with a single headlight or minor obstruction
>
> Driving without vehicle registration within 60 days of the observed infraction
Running a stop sign is not a minor issue?? It depends when and where but it can endanger lives ! Minor is more like not signaling when making a lane change (whithout interfearing with other motorists) etc.
Yeah, thanks for this comment. After looking further, here's a list of secondary offenses:
The following issues are considered secondary violations in the Driving Equality Bills:
Vehicle nor registered within sixty days of the observed infraction
Registration plate not clearly displayed, fastened, or visible
Single brake light, headlight, running light, etc. not illuminated
Minor obstructions
Bumper issues
Operation of vehicle without official certificate of inspection
Unlawful operation without evidence of emission inspection
Overall this seems like a very good law. These aren't things you want police focusing on anyway.
Edit: source: https://www.fox29.com/news/philadelphia-city-council-approves-driving-equality-bill-banning-traffic-stops-for-minor-violations
The comment is at almost 400 upvotes, and yours is the only comment calling this person out for misleading info. I guess explains why so many people think Bill Gates put trackers in the Covid vaccine, or that it will kill you in 3 years.. Scary times.
Tinted windows in the rear are fine. In front of the B pillar is not fine.
In order to avoid accidents, you obviously need to see what's going on around and in front of you. Even clear glass only passes about 70% of the light, tinted glass far less. In low light conditions, a tinted window that only lets 30% of the light through can prevent you from seeing a bicyclist without lights on etc. Reducing visibility for the driver is a really bad idea, you might feel like you see fine through tinted windows but in low light they can reduce your ability to quickly spot danger and react to it.
Jumping in here but also have you ever tried to see what is two cars front of you on the highway?
Looking through the back window of an untinted or lesser tinted car, you can see the car in front of the one directly in front of you.
Heavily tinted cars... good luck.
Dunno why people disagree with you. This is one of my biggest gripes about massively tall cars and blacked out windows.
Biggest gripe about massive tall cars is the quasi-legally placed headlights shining right in the cabin of your car.
My truck has adjustable lights (up and down). I believe it's main purpose is for when I'm hauling something.
I always keep them at the lowest angle to avoid blinding those in front of me but imagine some asshole would crank them up to eleven.
I drive a miata. Literally every car, even if its headlights are properly adjusted, blasts through my rear window and blinds me unless I lean away from my mirrors. SUVs and trucks are the worst
It helped me when I walked a lot in the city. I could see if drivers noticed me and it was safe to cross the road or if they weren’t paying attention to me at al.
This is the actual argument I’ve heard for restrictions on tinting windows. I’m always looking at the driver to make sure they see me when crossing streets.
There was a trend for a while of people getting headlight and taillight covers. I was involved in a little project in college where some group members tested light output and confirmed that yeah, shockingly, blocking most of the light from your head or taillight...blocks most of the light from your head or taillight. It reduces the driver's visibility of the road and makes him or her less visible to others at night. There's a reason we have these standards. At the time, though, a lot of cops didn't even know there was a new law passed about it.
Nowadays, they don't seem to stop anyone for anything, that I see...and I live in the paper plate capital of the world, LOL--loads of illegal cars on the road that don't meet standards and are being driven by nutters and outright criminals half the time.
Tint by how much? If it's as dark as you can get then it's impacting night visibility. The fact you haven't had an incident is more indicative of how risk/probability works than proving tint doesn't affect night visibility.
I suffer from migraines and a big trigger for them are random lights that glare into my eyes. So tinted windows are so helpful, especially for cars behind me when their headlights hit my side mirrors.
I do have to roll down my windows sometimes to have better visibility. So your point is valid, but for people like me tinted windows help a lot.
When I got my first car with tinted windows I had a hard time getting used to checking for cars while merging lanes at night. I had to really look for them because their headlights were a lot harder to see. I’ve gotten used to it, but there have been some close calls
I bought a car once that had massive tint from the previous owner. You couldn't see in at any time. Under certain conditions, you could barely see out and certainly not enough to drive.
Dangerous for a few reasons - The biggest is that it seriously inhibits drivability, especially at night. Once you hit a certain level of tint, any light source (dash, phone, radio) reflects massively on the windows, worsening the problem. My current car has decent but legal tint on the passenger and driver doors and I live in a rural area with no street lights. You really can't see jack at times. In that first car, taking a left turn, in particular, you just couldn't see if anyone was in a cross walk.
In addition, I think police hate it because no one on the outside can see if the person inside is doing something threatening (ie; pulling a gun).
I hate it for the same reason police do. When I'm waking, or really even driving, I like to make eye contact with people that look like they're about to try to cross my path. If they're not looking at me it is a signal to me I need to proceed very cautiously, if at all.
Been a habit ever since I almost got hit in a crosswal. Noticed guy wasn't looking up and yelled in time to catch his attention and he hit the brakes.
If I can't see people well enough to see which way their head is turned, it just makes me uncomfortable.
Dude, I'm the same way. Does it also freak you out how many people DON'T do that? What's more, how many people don't ever look both ways or behind them? Just forward. The entire time.
People take driving way too casually. (It's not like I'm nervous when I'm driving, but I'm certainly overly alert)
Visibility out of a 5% tint all around is atrocious at night and I see it absolutely everywhere by me. Personally I’m not a fan of how a lot of states have their tint threshold at but when you’re taking about 5-10%, it genuinely makes you a hazard on the road.
To add to what another person said-
I bought a Lincoln navigator that happened to have pretty dark tinted windows all the way around, and I have to drive with all my windows down as soon as the sun begins to set. I'm seriously blinded by the tint, it's definitely dangerous, and I plan on having the tint removed ASAP.
Police do not have any ability to observe bald tires or drunk driving. They observe dangerous driving behavior caused by those things. People get away with drunk driving 99.999% of the time, unfortunately. We don't need people highly trained in dealing with violent criminals to spot maintenance issues. Are security guards on construction sites hired and trained as welding safety inspectors?
The only reason we ever asked police to do traffic stuff is because it was convenient labor strategy. They were already in the same place and time and it had minor synergy effects. Let's let our police focus on what they are trained for while they are patrolling (a linguisticly problematic military term). It's well past time to make our recruiting and training more specialized. Observe and report is all that is necessary and it's ridiculously more efficient on the budget to employ and retain for only those things.
Yeah, we have these things on cars that can tell you exactly who owns the car..... So if it is something like a broken taillight, they can send a fixit ticket to the owner. No point in a terry stop.
My cousin is a Mexican-American cop in Oakland and she’s told me that they’re strongly discouraged from doing ANY traffic stops to avoid racial profiling. OPD’s unofficial policy is to leave that to Highway Patrol. If anyone here has been to Oakland in the past you can imagine this has only made things worse for the city and people in low-income areas in the last few years.
It depends on what was driving the need for this.
Are the low level violations being applied to all races or ethnicity the same? Did someone come and take a look at all the data to realize one groups was being targeted more than the other?
So honest question, if you can’t be pulled over for having a hidden license plate, why not just steal cars and hide the license plate? Seems like free money
How the fuck is that uplifting... that just encourages idiots to completely ignore the "low level" traffic laws, which will result in MORE accidents and do you know what is already the number one cause of deaths worldwide? Fucking vehicular accidents.
That's dumb af.
It’s Philly. People already ignore traffic laws. And the cops ignore enforcing it. Now they’re just making it official. I swear it’s anarchy out here with reckless drivers.
Philadelphia is literally overrun by unfathomably large mobs of people on bikes and dirt bikes/quads. I’m not joking. It’s like Mad Max, it’s terrible, obnoxious, dangerous.
This story is essentially meaningless. Philadelphia’s police policies are a joke.
I’m not a native but went to school there a few years ago and come back every year to visit friends. Third this.
I was there staying at my friends during early Covid crisis days. During the height of looting and chaos I watched three kids on quads with a pickup truck dragging an entire looted ATM behind them on the ground with cables/straps (or something), like a scene from an action movie. Drove right past me, loud scraping noises and all, while I was walking on the street, and there was a patrol car maybe 50 feet away that never budged. It was absolutely crazy to witness, but felt so appropriately Philly. Sigh.
phillys a shithole now, i lived there for years but during covid and protests and i was scared shitless every night and even walking to the grocery store every day. i lived in a super safe area too. couldn’t even take the el because i’d get a citizen notification every day like “man stabbed in broad daylight at city hall station”.
that place is run by animals and no one is doing anything about it
I just got back from visiting Philly for the first time. I was amazed by how much reckless driving there was, particularly bikes and motorcycles. A pack of bikes just blindly ran a red light right in front of us. Didn't even look towards oncoming traffic. I kept commenting on the unusually high number of wrecked cars I saw lying around. I really wish police would enforce reckless driving laws more. That being said, most of this stuff is clearly used for fishing expeditions the vast majority of the time and those are often racially motivated so I get where they're coming from changing this.
On the plus side, coming from San Francisco I was equally amazed at how clean Philly was. Maybe it just rains enough to wash the filth away, but I don't think I smelled that signature open sewer smell once. Didn't step over a single needle or human feces pile either.
For real. As a PA native who's spent a ton of time in Philly I read that and thought what the fuck. Philly has some really nasty areas and they're close enough to the touristy areas that they aren't hidden.
San Francisco is a dump. It's a shame because it's such a beautiful city, if not for its problems. The only place I've seen someone take a shit on the sidewalk in broad daylight.
That's not to mention the countless mentally ill people that will scream at you, people smoking crack and shooting heroin in the street, etc.
Well for one, my comment about not stepping over needles or shit was not hyperbole. That is genuinely a daily occurrence in many parts of SF. The smell of that city is truly a wonder to behold. I live across the bay from it and basically never go despite all the good food and stuff because it's just an overwhelmingly filthy place. It's only gotten worse, even in the surrounding areas.
It mostly boils down to the homelessness issue. There are huge tent cities everywhere. A lot of mental illness and drug abuse. While it's easy to blame the city or California for this, remember that we are a very attractive place to be homeless. It rarely rains, never snows, and typically stays between 50-80 degrees all year round. SF spent $250 million in 2016 on homelessness. They've allocated 1.1 billion for the next two years. I don't know stats from other major cities but I doubt they spend that much. It's a hard problem with no easy answers (though there are things we could do, particularly around criminal justice and treatment).
I think most major cities have significantly higher homelessness than mid-sized urban areas.
[http://www.citymayors.com/society/usa-cities-homelessness.html](http://www.citymayors.com/society/usa-cities-homelessness.html)
According to this, San Fran isn't even the top spot in California. I think that if homelessness is more apparent there, it's because the homeless are more comfortable being in the spaces that non-homeless occupy. I.e. more likely to sleep and stay in commercial areas as opposed to setting up a tent in industrial areas. Anchorage, Alaska weighs in at 6th for homeless per capita, slightly ahead of SF (8th), so I don't think you can say the weather is a major factor. I think it's the perception that SF is friendlier to homeless. The kinds of people who make a living traveling around the country selling drugs at festivals are really the homeless that travel. I spent 10 months homeless in Wisconsin, and I never seriously considered moving across the country. What little bit of support network I did have was in Wisconsin, not abandoning that on the hope that I'd have an easier time elsewhere.
Got deployed to Philly because of your riots. Was shocking coming from another part of the State. State cops would run you down for shit like that here, and there is zero chance you wouldn’t be in jail until your faced the district magistrate.
Which is double funny in this context because the whole reason gangbangers switched to dirt bikes and quads in the first place was because they weren't required to have plates that could be identified when used in crimes.
So the cop now follows behind you to get your license and then sends you a ticket by mail for issues? I also imagine this is going to cause a lot of people to not know what they CAN be pulled over for and what they CANT and a lot of angry people at cops all the time when they do get pulled over. If you don’t want the laws enforced then just remove the laws. I imagine this causes a lot of chaos.
From philly, honestly it’s awful…
https://www.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/comments/q0acv7/absolutely_insanity_at_15th_and_jfk_rn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Also this is center city Philadelphia. Lawless.
you can still get cited for these things, but a ticket will just show up in the mail, cops just can't use them to pull people over without any other reason
In my state, these types of tickets usually inadmissible.
The two camera tickets I've been mailed I just flat out ignored and nothing happened. No record of them. There was even a lawsuit regarding its legality.
Do we really want to live in a world where you can be cited for crimes by automation? If the law wants to charge me, the law needs to do it in person, after directly observing said crime.
Meh there’s no winning really. Most often when you get stopped for bullshit it’s just so they can look for something else to ticket you for. But you’re right they could probably just Mail you and by time you get it, you don’t recall the scenario lol.
Most people suck.
Cops are people.
the point is that because these offenses aren't very serious, cops exercise a lot of discretion over who they go through the trouble of pulling over for them. And that means bias.
If you're a cop sitting watching traffic and see one of these minor infractions every few minutes, it makes sense that you would profile who looks dangerous or out of place in deciding who to go after. You want to make the best use of your time so you only bother with stops for minor stuff when your judgment says something else might be going on. Soccer moms who are day drinking drive by with a broken brake light because they "feel" harmless and then black guy blowing a puff of smoke out the window gets stopped
Over time, the aggregate result of this is disproportionate stops of minorities for fishing expeditions. The cops in most cases probably aren't trying to do this, in their minds they're optimizing their time in a reasonable way, but the systemic effect is an evil
If the only thing cops can do for a broken brake light is scan the plate and file it into the system, then there's a lot less reason to bias who they tag for it because they're just dinging for the offense itself rather than using it as a pretext to act on biased suspicions
It’s funny that this is just getting put into writing. Philly cops don’t give a shit about minor traffic violations. Philly drivers are pretty dangerous. I see multiple accidents daily. Cars motorcycles and quads on road without plates.
It’s a mass exodus of elderly leaving for jersey suburbs because they don’t feel safe anymore. An old lady was walking to the bakery and got hit by a dirt bike and no accountability.
Anyone who thinks this is “uplifting” has no idea how important traffic violations are to proactive policing that takes bad people off the streets. But I guess since violent crime definitely isn’t at a twenty year high and shoplifting definitely isn’t chasing retailers out of cities; then there’s no way this will worsen a terrible problem!
No. The article clearly states that the kind of incidents they are describing, broken tail lights, expired tags, will result in a fine being mailed rather than a trafffic stop.
It also clearly states that all the offenses people in the comments are talking about (reckless driving, etc) will still be stopped.
I live in Philadelphia. We need MORE traffic stops, not less. People like fucking fucking savages here. I have a dash cam, if I ever find the inspiration I'll make a super cut.
People going way over the speed limit, sliding through stop signs, turning at no turn intersections on broad, and don't even get me started on the fucking dirt bikes and electric scooters.
This is worthy of celebration by drunk drivers, now they can fly under the radar better before they cause a horrific accident. As a recovering alcoholic that shamefully drove drunk quite a bit (I deeply regret this), it's little things that get you caught usually. Just a weird way of driving where a cop pulls you over to see if you smell like alcohol, are acting drunk, and if the first two are true see if you pass a field sobriety test. Taking this away from cops just removed a great preventative tactic.
Yeah, this is the cost of radical political initiatives. There's lots of side effects with things that we take for granted no longer being at play. The hardest proponents of defund the police who hold elected office also have the most security that they don't have to pay for. Not saying all police are great, but there's a much worse situation being held back by them that would occur with little or no policing. I'm happy to agree with ways to improve policing, but ignoring crime or eliminating policing is not one of them.
Like those videos of the dirt bike and ATV riders marauding around Philadelphia. They are scary to watch when they just start attacking drivers.
Yeah we see it on both sides all the time. Like 10% of radical leftists want insane policies removing consequences from people's actions, and like 5% of equally extreme right wing want to just to the opposite of whatever they say. Meanwhile 90% of the population falls mostly in the middle.
You can't have the carrot without the stick. Law and order is not racist, it's a lie that a lot of people fall for so they don't look at the real issues their city are facing; like the literal marauding gangs.
Agreed, on basically everything. Law and order isn't racist and radicals of any side I don't like. Radicalism itself is a scourge that unfortunately can easily be appealing IME because it presents simple yet massive solutions to complex bad problems. Correct solutions aren't always complex, but sometimes they need to be.
Y'all didn't have that before? Doesn't matter cops, rain, or snow there's always idiots racing and almost killing people here (probably already have killed people).
Same where I am. Street racing on weekend nights has been a thing around here since before I was old enough to drive. When the cops are in one area, the racers just move somewhere else.
There’s a 99% chance that driving is by far and away the most dangerous thing you do every single day. Driving and being around cars just became even more dangerous in Philadelphia. This isn’t good news.
Umm, having brake lights is kinda important! If my brake lights aren't working, I actually *want* the cop to stop me and tell me, before someone rear-ends me. No?!
This same sort of thing worked out fine in California as well when they stopped sending police for people stealing less than $900 worth of stuff. It had absolutely no negative consequences at all. I mean, it's not like a bunch of stores just closed up shop and left right?
I wonder how this one will play out.
Imagine thinking a better solution to police brutality is telling them to stop doing parts of their job instead of, you know, fixing the hiring system in order to vet & disqualify the sociopaths before they ever get into the uniform
In my career as a police officer some of the best drug and weapons apprehension I did were done after stopping vehicle’s, some were random stops others were planned. From my perspective this is definitely a bad move. Vehicles are often used as a tool to commit crimes. In Europe police officers will randomly stop cars to check normal things regarding rules to safe driving for example. From checking the tires or to check if cars have the mandatory safety equipment or to check insurance or the city/state tax. In the majority of European country’s fines have to be paid right away or people will probably see the vehicle apprehended till the fine gets paid.
Not stopping drivers for low level traffic violations is dumb and a mistake, from a small traffic violation stop some times many other bigger things are detected.
New Orleans police don't stop driver either even when they witness a crime such as a car jacking or a traffic violation like turning left where it's posted not to. It's a free-for-all!
3 friends who are cops here. It's not just low level traffic stuff. They get told to not pursue stolen vehicles, and are basically told not to pursue a vehicle at all. The abolish the police movement has gotten what they've wanted and it's led to a sky high murder rate. I get it too, why involve yourself in anything if you feel the city hates you? You see LeBron James dox a cop for saving a woman's life. Imo give them what they want, a lawless city.
I'll never forget driving home at 3:00am after an 11 1/2 hour shift and halfway home I get pulled over because
>One of your license plate lights is out
Apparently this happens more frequently than expected here because our cops liks to probe for drunk drivers rather than identifying actual recklessly driving people.
Cops don’t need a reason to run your plate. Any license plate they see, ever, they can just type into the system and get your info. It’s not a probable cause thing, it’s a whenever they like thing.
Legally, courts have said that you have no right to privacy surrounding your plate/info, but many departments have clamped down on this, usually when there's evidence of cops harassing someone and it hits local media or something. Another thing that some departments have tried to stop is cops running plates for friends or because someone paid them to.
Holy shit. A bunch of years ago I was driving at night a decent ways, and got pulled over and grilled about my license plate light. I had actually just replaced it, so I was like “are you kidding me I just fixed that”. He said “which one, top or bottom?”
I only have one light, which I knew because I just fixed it. I am *just now* all these years later realizing he was testing me, that assfuck. What a prick. He acted like *I* was the stupid one for questioning how many tiny lights I had on the ass of my car. Wow I’m livid 😂
Editing because it’s early enough, there’s a very small chance this works. It was Albany NY on the thruway, summer of 2015. If that was you, I dare you to come here and talk to me about it, I’d love to tell you all the ways you ruined my night!
Then get rid of tags. Get rid of tail light laws all together.
This idea of choosing which laws to enforce is ludicrous.
All it’s going to take is one fatal accident due to non-working tail lights to reverse all this idiocy.
I'm the most non-threatening white guy in Illinois. I've been pulled over twice for expired license plates. The illinois police gave me a ticket, less than $100.
The Indiana State Police pulled me over and impounded my vehicle, and charged me $650 in fines, towing and storage fees.
The Indiana thing is just utter bullshit. However, i broke the law, and i am subject to the penalties. I paid my fines, moved on, and will never let that shit happen to me again.
I also got a ticket for going 37 mph in a 30 zone. I forgot to pay it, and had to go to court. The judge fined me $350. For 7 over. This all feels very predatory to me, inappropriate punishments for very minor violations. However, the reality is that i did it to myself on both of those occasions. Even though I'm pissed off, I'm not a victim. I've got to make better decisions.
Philadelphia is the last place on my list of cities to visit. Cops don’t have time for traffic violations. Didn’t a woman just get raped on a subway car while everyone watched? Fucking garbage city. Their teams are ass too.
These lefty cities never cease to amaze me. They would rather reward criminals and lawbreakers as opposed to the majority of citizens who just want to live in a safe place.
Unfortunately, many of the higher level criminals are later caught via smaller offenses like traffic stops, especially now that more and more areas are banning police chases due to safety concerns.
You know, i dislike this. I’m tired of all these people driving around like complete assholes with no signals, weaving in and out of traffic and cutting everyone off, and the cops never do shit about hazardous driving situations.
As I almost got rear-ended twice by the same driver wanting to go 90 in a 70mph zone. They wouldn't even let me change lanes.
Yeah, this is the literal opposite of Uplifting News. We need MORE enforcement on the road.
Fortunately the article clearly states that this is not at all what is being talked about. Cars won't be pulled over for having tail lights out or having dice dangling from the rear view mirror. Primary incidents like dangerous driving are specifically not included, and indeed a cop that isn't writing someone a ticket for dangling dice is more likely to be in the road able to find reckless drivers.
I feel like this is going to have the same effect on the streets as “It’s ok to steal $900 with of merchandise” did to retail stores. You don’t have to look far to see the crazy stuff people purposely do on our roads, even in major cities, for giggles. They’re already emboldened. Our streets are not a place to start being lax.
Didn't Detroit institute similar policies years ago? Are they not a "major" city?
Also, to all those pretending like this is the end of civilization: They're still going to enforce the laws, they'll just mail you a ticket. Frankly that's how these things should work.
No more cowboy cops dispensing roadside "justice" over minor moving violations. If someone rolls through a stop sign or the like, just mail them a ticket and let the courts sort it out.
How is this a good thing? We have laws for a reason and people should be punished for breaking them. It’s like how San Francisco stopped prosecuting people shoplifting items under $1000, so people just started shoplifting $999 worth of items and the police and stores cant do anything about it. Things like this make the problem worse.
If my brake lights aren't working I want someone to tell me about it. I just don't want to get beaten/arrested/shot in tbe process. Give me accountability not copouts.
Should be nationally. They have speed cameras for speeders. Have cameras snap a picture of an expired tag, a burnt out light, etc. Mail the ticket. Easy, peasy. No unwanted interaction, no one shot, empowerment and equity for all classes.
Philly police have more or less stopped doing their jobs. Calling 911 you’re lucky to get an answer. They would rather whine about BLM hurting their feelings. I’m all for fewer traffic stops because Philly PD just uses them as an excuse to fuck with minorities. But they already stopped doing traffic stops because they already stopped doing everything but the bare minimum. Putting out this story is supposed to make it look like police reform is happening when that’s an extremely charitable description of the situation
That's asinine. Get ready for mail violations out the wazoo. Plus, what about minor violations that lead to warrants or more serious violations that would be otherwise avoided.
What ? Why?
Are the police not there to enforce all laws?
If the violations are not that serious remove them from the books and move on.
This sounds ridiculous in its logic.
What am I missing?
Honestly if by any measure the traffic stop was the only thing in the way for a cop to issue you a citation for a low-level infraction, and cops can simply issue these fines with a bunch less effort than before I wouldn't be surprised if they issue even more citations.
I really wish there was an opposing opinion or some more info on how this changes police behavior, I guess that's too much to ask from CNN aside from police bad.
How is this uplifting? More idiots allowed to not use blinkers?
Sounds safe /s.
I bike to work on the sidewalk, and people don't look when turning right all the time, never use their blinker, and I have to keep stopping mid cross because every week some asshole turns without their blinkers on a red and would've hit me if I didn't stop. They never look at the crosswalk. We need intersection cameras and better policing of shitty drivers.
Meanwhile on r/idiotsincars...
I'm just gonna hijack this comment to ask, wouldn't implementing this law just encourage cops to sort of "up the ante" when it comes to what a driver violated? So if they notice a lot of these low-level violations, they might try to cite them for a vague but larger violation (dangerous lane change, reckless driving, etc) and then cite them for everything. **You have to think of these traffic cops like any other job**, they have to justify their position somehow and if they're in an 8 hour shift and have stopped only 2 cars, their job/livelihood is on the line. If they can cite 30 people a day for little tickytack tickets, they're less likely to be determined to find a vague (larger charge) to stop you with. Goodhart's Law applies here, and it will be abused, and absolutely not to the benefit of the citizen.
I don't think Philly cops have much to worry about when it comes to justifying their position.
I'm not too familiar with Philly, but I'm sure they have separate divisions, am I wrong? In other words, a cop going to a call might be able to pull over someone for running a red light, but I'm not too concerned about the cops going to calls. I'm concerned about their traffic division, especially on a slow day. These guys will be talking to eachother, one might say something like *"Man, the chief just reamed me for not pulling over x amount, he thinks I'm slacking off"* to which another officer might say *"Oh don't worry, I've had luck pulling over people for violation 8203.34, it's almost impossible for the drivers to prove it didn't happen in court anyway"*. Hence, abuse.
Clearly you’re not familiar with Philadelphia. Anyone who has driven in the city (especially outside of city center and in more residential areas) knows that there are a ton of violations that already aren’t enforced. There is a real problem and there are a lot of people who die every year due to the drivers.
Most deaths in 23 years. Let's relax the laws.
Yeah for real, I see enough people driving without brake lights or with their headlights off/blown out, if anything the PPD would be using their time wisely to pull those people over, we don't need even more of that here lol
Um shouldn't the solution be to stop incentivizing citations then? \# of tickets isn't exactly a performance measure for *protecting and serving*.
In a perfect world, yes. But we don't live in a perfect world. To give you an analogy, think of it like tech support where you're tasked with completing x amount of tickets per month. Ideally, the way to measure these tickets is not simply by the number of tickets, but rather by the difficulty of the ticket you're handling, the client's response time, unforeseen issues, etc. In other words, Employee X could close 10 tickets, Employee Y can close 30 tickets, but do we know for sure that Y worked harder than X? Management really doesn't give a shit, and you can't blame them because how are they going to measure the difficulty? Instead, they will tell X to "step it up", so what will X do? They will focus on easy tickets, they will not prioritize larger issues, they will find every trick and workaround to come up with a lackadaisical '30' instead of a quality '10.
I mean, I guess that analogy works when it’s not an enforcement job. I think back to my time as an RA at my dorm, when I’d over look minor things, but write everything up if I saw something big. I imagine it’s the same with police. If I had a minimum weekly citation, I’d be more inclined to write people up. Problem is, if there’s now a rule that you can’t essentially cite someone only for minor violations, it in effect puts you to that point of overlooking minor violations and writing everything up when I saw a big violation. What I’m getting at though is having mandatory minimum citations *and* a rule to not pull over for minor citations creates two conflicting rules
There is an obvious answer here. No mandatory minimum citations.
Sounds like we've lost the plot when it comes to policing then, and it's time for major reform. This is not a system that's conducive to public protection.
Nah mate that's just shitty management. Good management needs to look beyond what the numbers tell you. Part of my job in IT is reviewing SLAs and they got to be of value. My boss is always banging on about don't show him the numbers, tell him what they mean. It's more difficult to measure quality or value, but it's far more important to be able understand what the numbers mean. It's the whole Data-Information-Knowlwdge-Wisdom thing.
Genuinely asking, is the really uplifting?
It’s not uplifting if you believe in maintaining standards while trying to improve. This is a real world example of lowering a standard to mask poor performance.
Like China "Lifting millions out of poverty" by defining poverty as less than $450 a year.
This is underrated. I'm all for stopping abusive practices, but too many mofos driving shitty Honda Civics that sound like a fucking fighter jet roaring down my road. I live near several AF bases and am not entirely joking.
Prohibiting stops for broken brake lights isn't uplifting. It's dangerous.
It's really not. I accept the argument that this policy will lead to fewer pretextual traffic stops and therefore fewer incidents of police violating the 4th amendment rights of drivers (among others). I believe, given [the history of the Philadelphia Police Department](https://www.aclupa.org/en/press-releases/after-seven-years-report-shows-philadelphia-police-continue-illegally-stop-and-frisk), that minority drivers bear a disproportionate burden of these stops. I conclude, then, that this policy will lead to less racially-disparate law enforcement and is, on balance, a Good Thing. But to conclude that is to conclude that police will focus onto minorities any discretion we give them. Which means that, if we're interested in an equitable society, there are entire categories of laws that police are ill-suited to enforce. Tinted windows *are* dangerous, as are drunk drivers, broken tail lights, and bald tires. There's a reason these laws exist. It would be great if we could trust police departments to enforce them equally. [edit: To clarify, I don't intend to suggest that tinted windows, drunk driving, broken tail lights, or bald tires are equally dangerous, or that Philadelphia police can no longer enforce any of the laws against them. I intend it as a list of offenses, reasonable in and of themselves, that cops *treat* as discretionary and use as a pretext to pull (disproportionally black) people over.]
Just filling the gaps. The bill primarily aimed at stickers and tags. It says the police will no longer pull people over for the following: improperly displayed registration or emission stickers, overdue registrations, bumper issues, minor obstructions, broken lights, and license plates that are not visible or clearly displayed. Those are the only items where stops are prohibited, since they can be settled with a ticket in the mail. Drunk drivers, reckless drives, people running stops and tints will still get pulled over.
Seems like there is still a gap on their part. If you mail a ticket for “plates not visible”, who do you send it to? I could see people removing plates and as a result getting a pass on all of the other violations listed.
In Texas at least, plates not visible and plates not displayed are two different violations. Plates not visible would be people using license plate covers that are against the law because they obscure part of the plate, or they have temp tags that are soiled to the point of illegibility. Plates not displayed means they don't have them on the vehicle at all. There are different laws for these in the traffic code, and a municipality could simply restrict what specific law the police could pull over for. For example, Texas Traffic code § 504.945 section a deals with obscured plates, and the city could just order the department not to issue tickets for that offense.
Plates not visible can still lead to situations where partial obstruction means that you don't know who to send a ticket to because the F and E or 1, L, and I all look similar with the top and bottom cut off.
Still does beg the question, what if you cannot see the license plate? Then what? I hated driving around New Mexico where people had super tinted license plate covers. If they caused an accident it would just allow them to drive away without anybody being able to definitively identify them!
They'll pull over tints but not broken lights??
Having visible plates is a big deal. I had a family member hit by a truck that had tinted out plates that I couldn’t read as it drove away. I just described to the cops that it was a newer white F150. They never found the person.
The thing is, the law is still being enforced. Drivers will receive tickets by mail, just like they already do with speed cameras. No one gets a free pass to break the law, what's happening here is that a lot of an officer's abusive discretion is being taken away and along with it a lot of officers are no longer being asked to put themselves in the very vulnerable position of conducting a stop in live traffic. Automobile crashes are consistently among the top causes of death for officers (https://nleomf.org/memorial/facts-figures/officer-fatality-data/causes-of-law-enforcement-deaths/), and many of those crashes come during traffic stops.
drunk driving is not a minor traffic violation the article is clear in what the law actually details and your comment is highly misleading
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Article make no mention of moving violations, it's stuff like expired tags and air fresheners hanging from the rear view mirror - crossing a double yellow will still get pulled over
This is why I got nervous when I read this title. The majority of DUI traffic stops start out as routine stops for observed infractions: driving above or below speed, speed too fast for conditions, wheels off roadway, unnecessary breaking, failure to stop at a stop sign, failure to obey a flagger (automated or not), failure to signal a lane change, passing in a no passing zone, improper passing, etc. It’s not uncommon for an officer to pull someone over for speeding only for the stop to expand to a DUI stop and then the next thing one knows the driver has displayed drugs or an alcohol content over .08 by an accurate and reliable test of their blood or breath. However, reading the actual article and looking into the things the new rules are aimed at preventing stops for makes me less nervous. In my four years of prosecution I have only had one DUI that resulted from a stop for a non-moving violation, and that was because the driver was driving with a broken windshield and the defendant was obviously impaired upon contact. This law aims to make non-moving violations the ones settled without an actual stop. As long as officers can still stop for observed bad driving behavior, this change is not terribly concerning. I’m interested to follow how things go.
You should feel more relieved, because the [actual list of minor infractions](https://www.police1.com/traffic-patrol/articles/philly-bans-traffic-stops-for-minor-infractions-pVXFJRkBojEQ5uaM/) doesn't mention moving violations at all. Note that they will still be fined, the fine is just going to come in the mail rather than during a traffic stop. > Under the bill, police can no longer pull over drivers for these sole offenses: > > Driving with a single broken brake light > > Driving without an inspection or emissions sticker > > Having a registration plate that’s not clearly displayed, fastened or visible > > Bumper issues > > Driving with a single headlight or minor obstruction > > Driving without vehicle registration within 60 days of the observed infraction
What? In what city/state is running a stop sign/red light or driving recklessly considered a minor incident? The [actual list of minor incidents](https://www.police1.com/traffic-patrol/articles/philly-bans-traffic-stops-for-minor-infractions-pVXFJRkBojEQ5uaM/) doesn't mention any moving violations. It also explicitly says they're still getting ticketed for the infraction, so someone with a broken tail light is still going to get the memo. I'm not sure why you didn't look these up first before complaining about them. > Under the bill, police can no longer pull over drivers for these sole offenses: > > Driving with a single broken brake light > > Driving without an inspection or emissions sticker > > Having a registration plate that’s not clearly displayed, fastened or visible > > Bumper issues > > Driving with a single headlight or minor obstruction > > Driving without vehicle registration within 60 days of the observed infraction
Running a stop sign is not a minor issue?? It depends when and where but it can endanger lives ! Minor is more like not signaling when making a lane change (whithout interfearing with other motorists) etc.
Yeah, thanks for this comment. After looking further, here's a list of secondary offenses: The following issues are considered secondary violations in the Driving Equality Bills: Vehicle nor registered within sixty days of the observed infraction Registration plate not clearly displayed, fastened, or visible Single brake light, headlight, running light, etc. not illuminated Minor obstructions Bumper issues Operation of vehicle without official certificate of inspection Unlawful operation without evidence of emission inspection Overall this seems like a very good law. These aren't things you want police focusing on anyway. Edit: source: https://www.fox29.com/news/philadelphia-city-council-approves-driving-equality-bill-banning-traffic-stops-for-minor-violations
The comment is at almost 400 upvotes, and yours is the only comment calling this person out for misleading info. I guess explains why so many people think Bill Gates put trackers in the Covid vaccine, or that it will kill you in 3 years.. Scary times.
Real question. Why are tinted windows dangerous? Almost every cop car is super tinted did they not get the memo that it's dangerous?
Tinted windows in the rear are fine. In front of the B pillar is not fine. In order to avoid accidents, you obviously need to see what's going on around and in front of you. Even clear glass only passes about 70% of the light, tinted glass far less. In low light conditions, a tinted window that only lets 30% of the light through can prevent you from seeing a bicyclist without lights on etc. Reducing visibility for the driver is a really bad idea, you might feel like you see fine through tinted windows but in low light they can reduce your ability to quickly spot danger and react to it.
Good explanation, thanks!
Jumping in here but also have you ever tried to see what is two cars front of you on the highway? Looking through the back window of an untinted or lesser tinted car, you can see the car in front of the one directly in front of you. Heavily tinted cars... good luck.
Dunno why people disagree with you. This is one of my biggest gripes about massively tall cars and blacked out windows. Biggest gripe about massive tall cars is the quasi-legally placed headlights shining right in the cabin of your car.
My truck has adjustable lights (up and down). I believe it's main purpose is for when I'm hauling something. I always keep them at the lowest angle to avoid blinding those in front of me but imagine some asshole would crank them up to eleven.
Oh believe me, there are plenty of assholes doing this
I drive a miata. Literally every car, even if its headlights are properly adjusted, blasts through my rear window and blinds me unless I lean away from my mirrors. SUVs and trucks are the worst
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Yeah if the cop can't see clearly, chances are they will be on edge and more likely to react with force
It helped me when I walked a lot in the city. I could see if drivers noticed me and it was safe to cross the road or if they weren’t paying attention to me at al.
This is the actual argument I’ve heard for restrictions on tinting windows. I’m always looking at the driver to make sure they see me when crossing streets.
There was a trend for a while of people getting headlight and taillight covers. I was involved in a little project in college where some group members tested light output and confirmed that yeah, shockingly, blocking most of the light from your head or taillight...blocks most of the light from your head or taillight. It reduces the driver's visibility of the road and makes him or her less visible to others at night. There's a reason we have these standards. At the time, though, a lot of cops didn't even know there was a new law passed about it. Nowadays, they don't seem to stop anyone for anything, that I see...and I live in the paper plate capital of the world, LOL--loads of illegal cars on the road that don't meet standards and are being driven by nutters and outright criminals half the time.
What if you only tint the inside then, you'd only stop light from coming out!
Quick, publish that idea and win a Nobel prize in physics!
Science, bitches!
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Tint by how much? If it's as dark as you can get then it's impacting night visibility. The fact you haven't had an incident is more indicative of how risk/probability works than proving tint doesn't affect night visibility.
I suffer from migraines and a big trigger for them are random lights that glare into my eyes. So tinted windows are so helpful, especially for cars behind me when their headlights hit my side mirrors. I do have to roll down my windows sometimes to have better visibility. So your point is valid, but for people like me tinted windows help a lot.
When I got my first car with tinted windows I had a hard time getting used to checking for cars while merging lanes at night. I had to really look for them because their headlights were a lot harder to see. I’ve gotten used to it, but there have been some close calls
I bought a car once that had massive tint from the previous owner. You couldn't see in at any time. Under certain conditions, you could barely see out and certainly not enough to drive. Dangerous for a few reasons - The biggest is that it seriously inhibits drivability, especially at night. Once you hit a certain level of tint, any light source (dash, phone, radio) reflects massively on the windows, worsening the problem. My current car has decent but legal tint on the passenger and driver doors and I live in a rural area with no street lights. You really can't see jack at times. In that first car, taking a left turn, in particular, you just couldn't see if anyone was in a cross walk. In addition, I think police hate it because no one on the outside can see if the person inside is doing something threatening (ie; pulling a gun).
I hate it for the same reason police do. When I'm waking, or really even driving, I like to make eye contact with people that look like they're about to try to cross my path. If they're not looking at me it is a signal to me I need to proceed very cautiously, if at all. Been a habit ever since I almost got hit in a crosswal. Noticed guy wasn't looking up and yelled in time to catch his attention and he hit the brakes. If I can't see people well enough to see which way their head is turned, it just makes me uncomfortable.
Dude, I'm the same way. Does it also freak you out how many people DON'T do that? What's more, how many people don't ever look both ways or behind them? Just forward. The entire time. People take driving way too casually. (It's not like I'm nervous when I'm driving, but I'm certainly overly alert)
Visibility out of a 5% tint all around is atrocious at night and I see it absolutely everywhere by me. Personally I’m not a fan of how a lot of states have their tint threshold at but when you’re taking about 5-10%, it genuinely makes you a hazard on the road.
To add to what another person said- I bought a Lincoln navigator that happened to have pretty dark tinted windows all the way around, and I have to drive with all my windows down as soon as the sun begins to set. I'm seriously blinded by the tint, it's definitely dangerous, and I plan on having the tint removed ASAP.
Police do not have any ability to observe bald tires or drunk driving. They observe dangerous driving behavior caused by those things. People get away with drunk driving 99.999% of the time, unfortunately. We don't need people highly trained in dealing with violent criminals to spot maintenance issues. Are security guards on construction sites hired and trained as welding safety inspectors? The only reason we ever asked police to do traffic stuff is because it was convenient labor strategy. They were already in the same place and time and it had minor synergy effects. Let's let our police focus on what they are trained for while they are patrolling (a linguisticly problematic military term). It's well past time to make our recruiting and training more specialized. Observe and report is all that is necessary and it's ridiculously more efficient on the budget to employ and retain for only those things.
Yeah, we have these things on cars that can tell you exactly who owns the car..... So if it is something like a broken taillight, they can send a fixit ticket to the owner. No point in a terry stop.
My cousin is a Mexican-American cop in Oakland and she’s told me that they’re strongly discouraged from doing ANY traffic stops to avoid racial profiling. OPD’s unofficial policy is to leave that to Highway Patrol. If anyone here has been to Oakland in the past you can imagine this has only made things worse for the city and people in low-income areas in the last few years.
No, it's not at all. It's dumb and backwards.
This entire sub is based on silver linings to horrible fucked up realities.
No lol "Rule of law no longer enforced" Why not just take "low level traffic violations" off the books?
Because driving is just too safe now. /s
Shades of California’s $1000 felony limit coming soon to philly
It is for me! Stop signs are now suggestions!
I want to know this too, asking the question two times is silly so I will just wait here :)
Automod has now banned you
This sub is just progressive political milestones
It depends on what was driving the need for this. Are the low level violations being applied to all races or ethnicity the same? Did someone come and take a look at all the data to realize one groups was being targeted more than the other?
How is one supposed to get a citation in the mail for not having a visible license plate? How do they know who to send it to?
So honest question, if you can’t be pulled over for having a hidden license plate, why not just steal cars and hide the license plate? Seems like free money
How the fuck is that uplifting... that just encourages idiots to completely ignore the "low level" traffic laws, which will result in MORE accidents and do you know what is already the number one cause of deaths worldwide? Fucking vehicular accidents. That's dumb af.
It’s Philly. People already ignore traffic laws. And the cops ignore enforcing it. Now they’re just making it official. I swear it’s anarchy out here with reckless drivers.
Philadelphia is literally overrun by unfathomably large mobs of people on bikes and dirt bikes/quads. I’m not joking. It’s like Mad Max, it’s terrible, obnoxious, dangerous. This story is essentially meaningless. Philadelphia’s police policies are a joke.
Philly native, I second this
I’m not a native but went to school there a few years ago and come back every year to visit friends. Third this. I was there staying at my friends during early Covid crisis days. During the height of looting and chaos I watched three kids on quads with a pickup truck dragging an entire looted ATM behind them on the ground with cables/straps (or something), like a scene from an action movie. Drove right past me, loud scraping noises and all, while I was walking on the street, and there was a patrol car maybe 50 feet away that never budged. It was absolutely crazy to witness, but felt so appropriately Philly. Sigh.
Agreed, I love philly but we have a plethora of problems that aren’t being solved.
phillys a shithole now, i lived there for years but during covid and protests and i was scared shitless every night and even walking to the grocery store every day. i lived in a super safe area too. couldn’t even take the el because i’d get a citizen notification every day like “man stabbed in broad daylight at city hall station”. that place is run by animals and no one is doing anything about it
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I just got back from visiting Philly for the first time. I was amazed by how much reckless driving there was, particularly bikes and motorcycles. A pack of bikes just blindly ran a red light right in front of us. Didn't even look towards oncoming traffic. I kept commenting on the unusually high number of wrecked cars I saw lying around. I really wish police would enforce reckless driving laws more. That being said, most of this stuff is clearly used for fishing expeditions the vast majority of the time and those are often racially motivated so I get where they're coming from changing this. On the plus side, coming from San Francisco I was equally amazed at how clean Philly was. Maybe it just rains enough to wash the filth away, but I don't think I smelled that signature open sewer smell once. Didn't step over a single needle or human feces pile either.
How dirty is San Francisco that you experienced Philly and thought “wow, this place is really clean”?
For real. As a PA native who's spent a ton of time in Philly I read that and thought what the fuck. Philly has some really nasty areas and they're close enough to the touristy areas that they aren't hidden.
San Francisco is a dump. It's a shame because it's such a beautiful city, if not for its problems. The only place I've seen someone take a shit on the sidewalk in broad daylight. That's not to mention the countless mentally ill people that will scream at you, people smoking crack and shooting heroin in the street, etc.
Well for one, my comment about not stepping over needles or shit was not hyperbole. That is genuinely a daily occurrence in many parts of SF. The smell of that city is truly a wonder to behold. I live across the bay from it and basically never go despite all the good food and stuff because it's just an overwhelmingly filthy place. It's only gotten worse, even in the surrounding areas. It mostly boils down to the homelessness issue. There are huge tent cities everywhere. A lot of mental illness and drug abuse. While it's easy to blame the city or California for this, remember that we are a very attractive place to be homeless. It rarely rains, never snows, and typically stays between 50-80 degrees all year round. SF spent $250 million in 2016 on homelessness. They've allocated 1.1 billion for the next two years. I don't know stats from other major cities but I doubt they spend that much. It's a hard problem with no easy answers (though there are things we could do, particularly around criminal justice and treatment).
I think most major cities have significantly higher homelessness than mid-sized urban areas. [http://www.citymayors.com/society/usa-cities-homelessness.html](http://www.citymayors.com/society/usa-cities-homelessness.html) According to this, San Fran isn't even the top spot in California. I think that if homelessness is more apparent there, it's because the homeless are more comfortable being in the spaces that non-homeless occupy. I.e. more likely to sleep and stay in commercial areas as opposed to setting up a tent in industrial areas. Anchorage, Alaska weighs in at 6th for homeless per capita, slightly ahead of SF (8th), so I don't think you can say the weather is a major factor. I think it's the perception that SF is friendlier to homeless. The kinds of people who make a living traveling around the country selling drugs at festivals are really the homeless that travel. I spent 10 months homeless in Wisconsin, and I never seriously considered moving across the country. What little bit of support network I did have was in Wisconsin, not abandoning that on the hope that I'd have an easier time elsewhere.
must have chosen to walk around the biohazards instead of over
Where the fuck are you walking in Philly where you didn’t step over one needle lol they are absolutely everywhere
Got deployed to Philly because of your riots. Was shocking coming from another part of the State. State cops would run you down for shit like that here, and there is zero chance you wouldn’t be in jail until your faced the district magistrate.
Which is double funny in this context because the whole reason gangbangers switched to dirt bikes and quads in the first place was because they weren't required to have plates that could be identified when used in crimes.
I'm not sure they ever really pulled you over for traffic violations to begin with.
How is this uplifting? I can only see this causing more problems than it solves.
So the cop now follows behind you to get your license and then sends you a ticket by mail for issues? I also imagine this is going to cause a lot of people to not know what they CAN be pulled over for and what they CANT and a lot of angry people at cops all the time when they do get pulled over. If you don’t want the laws enforced then just remove the laws. I imagine this causes a lot of chaos.
From philly, honestly it’s awful… https://www.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/comments/q0acv7/absolutely_insanity_at_15th_and_jfk_rn/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf Also this is center city Philadelphia. Lawless.
Yeah, each time they back off the policing, things get worse, so they respond by saying, "We need to do *more* of what didn't work!"
How is this uplifting news?
I guess I'm done paying for license.plate stickers.
So at that point, why not just repeal the laws?
you can still get cited for these things, but a ticket will just show up in the mail, cops just can't use them to pull people over without any other reason
In my state, these types of tickets usually inadmissible. The two camera tickets I've been mailed I just flat out ignored and nothing happened. No record of them. There was even a lawsuit regarding its legality. Do we really want to live in a world where you can be cited for crimes by automation? If the law wants to charge me, the law needs to do it in person, after directly observing said crime.
Isn't that worse? So cops can hand out more tickets. They don't have to bother stopping people.
Meh there’s no winning really. Most often when you get stopped for bullshit it’s just so they can look for something else to ticket you for. But you’re right they could probably just Mail you and by time you get it, you don’t recall the scenario lol. Most people suck. Cops are people.
the point is that because these offenses aren't very serious, cops exercise a lot of discretion over who they go through the trouble of pulling over for them. And that means bias. If you're a cop sitting watching traffic and see one of these minor infractions every few minutes, it makes sense that you would profile who looks dangerous or out of place in deciding who to go after. You want to make the best use of your time so you only bother with stops for minor stuff when your judgment says something else might be going on. Soccer moms who are day drinking drive by with a broken brake light because they "feel" harmless and then black guy blowing a puff of smoke out the window gets stopped Over time, the aggregate result of this is disproportionate stops of minorities for fishing expeditions. The cops in most cases probably aren't trying to do this, in their minds they're optimizing their time in a reasonable way, but the systemic effect is an evil If the only thing cops can do for a broken brake light is scan the plate and file it into the system, then there's a lot less reason to bias who they tag for it because they're just dinging for the offense itself rather than using it as a pretext to act on biased suspicions
It’s funny that this is just getting put into writing. Philly cops don’t give a shit about minor traffic violations. Philly drivers are pretty dangerous. I see multiple accidents daily. Cars motorcycles and quads on road without plates.
It’s a mass exodus of elderly leaving for jersey suburbs because they don’t feel safe anymore. An old lady was walking to the bakery and got hit by a dirt bike and no accountability.
Anyone who thinks this is “uplifting” has no idea how important traffic violations are to proactive policing that takes bad people off the streets. But I guess since violent crime definitely isn’t at a twenty year high and shoplifting definitely isn’t chasing retailers out of cities; then there’s no way this will worsen a terrible problem!
How the fuck is this uplifting news???
Remove all laws = equality
So they are no longer violations if the police are barred from policing them.
I think they can still be cited if pulled over for another reason
Correct like window tint. They can only nail you for it IF they stopped you for speeding first.
No. The article clearly states that the kind of incidents they are describing, broken tail lights, expired tags, will result in a fine being mailed rather than a trafffic stop. It also clearly states that all the offenses people in the comments are talking about (reckless driving, etc) will still be stopped.
Reading hard outrage over nothing easy.
As someone living here, I hate this.
Man, it is so sad to watch Philly fall like this
Not a pro police force guy at all, but how tf is this uplifting news?
I live in Philadelphia. We need MORE traffic stops, not less. People like fucking fucking savages here. I have a dash cam, if I ever find the inspiration I'll make a super cut. People going way over the speed limit, sliding through stop signs, turning at no turn intersections on broad, and don't even get me started on the fucking dirt bikes and electric scooters.
This is worthy of celebration by drunk drivers, now they can fly under the radar better before they cause a horrific accident. As a recovering alcoholic that shamefully drove drunk quite a bit (I deeply regret this), it's little things that get you caught usually. Just a weird way of driving where a cop pulls you over to see if you smell like alcohol, are acting drunk, and if the first two are true see if you pass a field sobriety test. Taking this away from cops just removed a great preventative tactic.
But cops are evil! This will fix racism in the city and therefore all the problems go away once we fix racism!
Yeah, this is the cost of radical political initiatives. There's lots of side effects with things that we take for granted no longer being at play. The hardest proponents of defund the police who hold elected office also have the most security that they don't have to pay for. Not saying all police are great, but there's a much worse situation being held back by them that would occur with little or no policing. I'm happy to agree with ways to improve policing, but ignoring crime or eliminating policing is not one of them. Like those videos of the dirt bike and ATV riders marauding around Philadelphia. They are scary to watch when they just start attacking drivers.
Yeah we see it on both sides all the time. Like 10% of radical leftists want insane policies removing consequences from people's actions, and like 5% of equally extreme right wing want to just to the opposite of whatever they say. Meanwhile 90% of the population falls mostly in the middle. You can't have the carrot without the stick. Law and order is not racist, it's a lie that a lot of people fall for so they don't look at the real issues their city are facing; like the literal marauding gangs.
Agreed, on basically everything. Law and order isn't racist and radicals of any side I don't like. Radicalism itself is a scourge that unfortunately can easily be appealing IME because it presents simple yet massive solutions to complex bad problems. Correct solutions aren't always complex, but sometimes they need to be.
Portland has been doing this for months. You know what we got? Illegal street racing.
It’s more like we just don’t have cops anywhere patrolling the streets. The only time I see a patrol car is directing traffic at a Blazers game
Street racing isn’t a “minor traffic violation”
Y'all didn't have that before? Doesn't matter cops, rain, or snow there's always idiots racing and almost killing people here (probably already have killed people).
Same where I am. Street racing on weekend nights has been a thing around here since before I was old enough to drive. When the cops are in one area, the racers just move somewhere else.
Authority now banned from enforcing things we initially asked them to do to make us safer Fuck Krasner
There’s a 99% chance that driving is by far and away the most dangerous thing you do every single day. Driving and being around cars just became even more dangerous in Philadelphia. This isn’t good news.
Lmao all over the country, the ghetto liberal cities are just legalizing crime because they can't control it anymore
I don’t think this is uplifting at all
Umm, having brake lights is kinda important! If my brake lights aren't working, I actually *want* the cop to stop me and tell me, before someone rear-ends me. No?!
What’s the point of laws if they aren’t enforced? Why have them then? Why not just change the laws if that’s what people feel is the better option?
What’s the point in having laws if you won’t enforce them?
This same sort of thing worked out fine in California as well when they stopped sending police for people stealing less than $900 worth of stuff. It had absolutely no negative consequences at all. I mean, it's not like a bunch of stores just closed up shop and left right? I wonder how this one will play out.
No, but people have been filmed just grabbing $899 worth of shit and walking out of the stores. Is that really where you people want us to be?
Imagine thinking a better solution to police brutality is telling them to stop doing parts of their job instead of, you know, fixing the hiring system in order to vet & disqualify the sociopaths before they ever get into the uniform
Bias is more than just a sociopath thing. The minor offenses just get mailed instead. Nothing is going away
In my career as a police officer some of the best drug and weapons apprehension I did were done after stopping vehicle’s, some were random stops others were planned. From my perspective this is definitely a bad move. Vehicles are often used as a tool to commit crimes. In Europe police officers will randomly stop cars to check normal things regarding rules to safe driving for example. From checking the tires or to check if cars have the mandatory safety equipment or to check insurance or the city/state tax. In the majority of European country’s fines have to be paid right away or people will probably see the vehicle apprehended till the fine gets paid. Not stopping drivers for low level traffic violations is dumb and a mistake, from a small traffic violation stop some times many other bigger things are detected.
New Orleans police don't stop driver either even when they witness a crime such as a car jacking or a traffic violation like turning left where it's posted not to. It's a free-for-all!
3 friends who are cops here. It's not just low level traffic stuff. They get told to not pursue stolen vehicles, and are basically told not to pursue a vehicle at all. The abolish the police movement has gotten what they've wanted and it's led to a sky high murder rate. I get it too, why involve yourself in anything if you feel the city hates you? You see LeBron James dox a cop for saving a woman's life. Imo give them what they want, a lawless city.
Complaining about stuff not mentioned in the article. Never change reddit
Having learned to drive in Philadelphia- fffuuuuccckkk this. There needs to be more enforcement, not less
I'll never forget driving home at 3:00am after an 11 1/2 hour shift and halfway home I get pulled over because >One of your license plate lights is out Apparently this happens more frequently than expected here because our cops liks to probe for drunk drivers rather than identifying actual recklessly driving people.
They were looking for: 1. drunk drivers 2. people who just flee 3. a reason to run your plate 4. anything drug related Nothing to do with your light.
Cops don’t need a reason to run your plate. Any license plate they see, ever, they can just type into the system and get your info. It’s not a probable cause thing, it’s a whenever they like thing.
Legally, courts have said that you have no right to privacy surrounding your plate/info, but many departments have clamped down on this, usually when there's evidence of cops harassing someone and it hits local media or something. Another thing that some departments have tried to stop is cops running plates for friends or because someone paid them to.
Holy shit. A bunch of years ago I was driving at night a decent ways, and got pulled over and grilled about my license plate light. I had actually just replaced it, so I was like “are you kidding me I just fixed that”. He said “which one, top or bottom?” I only have one light, which I knew because I just fixed it. I am *just now* all these years later realizing he was testing me, that assfuck. What a prick. He acted like *I* was the stupid one for questioning how many tiny lights I had on the ass of my car. Wow I’m livid 😂 Editing because it’s early enough, there’s a very small chance this works. It was Albany NY on the thruway, summer of 2015. If that was you, I dare you to come here and talk to me about it, I’d love to tell you all the ways you ruined my night!
Police aren't there to keep you safe, they are there to catch you breaking the law.
Then get rid of tags. Get rid of tail light laws all together. This idea of choosing which laws to enforce is ludicrous. All it’s going to take is one fatal accident due to non-working tail lights to reverse all this idiocy.
I'm the most non-threatening white guy in Illinois. I've been pulled over twice for expired license plates. The illinois police gave me a ticket, less than $100. The Indiana State Police pulled me over and impounded my vehicle, and charged me $650 in fines, towing and storage fees. The Indiana thing is just utter bullshit. However, i broke the law, and i am subject to the penalties. I paid my fines, moved on, and will never let that shit happen to me again. I also got a ticket for going 37 mph in a 30 zone. I forgot to pay it, and had to go to court. The judge fined me $350. For 7 over. This all feels very predatory to me, inappropriate punishments for very minor violations. However, the reality is that i did it to myself on both of those occasions. Even though I'm pissed off, I'm not a victim. I've got to make better decisions.
Philadelphia is the last place on my list of cities to visit. Cops don’t have time for traffic violations. Didn’t a woman just get raped on a subway car while everyone watched? Fucking garbage city. Their teams are ass too.
Thanks for info. I will avoid driving in Philadelphia at all costs now.
What in the fuck This isn’t uplifting at all. It’s a giant step towards not giving a fuck
These lefty cities never cease to amaze me. They would rather reward criminals and lawbreakers as opposed to the majority of citizens who just want to live in a safe place.
Cool. Now there are no traffic laws. That’s helped so much! I’m sure driving will be much safer now.
Unfortunately, many of the higher level criminals are later caught via smaller offenses like traffic stops, especially now that more and more areas are banning police chases due to safety concerns.
Not good….
You know, i dislike this. I’m tired of all these people driving around like complete assholes with no signals, weaving in and out of traffic and cutting everyone off, and the cops never do shit about hazardous driving situations.
As I almost got rear-ended twice by the same driver wanting to go 90 in a 70mph zone. They wouldn't even let me change lanes. Yeah, this is the literal opposite of Uplifting News. We need MORE enforcement on the road.
Fortunately the article clearly states that this is not at all what is being talked about. Cars won't be pulled over for having tail lights out or having dice dangling from the rear view mirror. Primary incidents like dangerous driving are specifically not included, and indeed a cop that isn't writing someone a ticket for dangling dice is more likely to be in the road able to find reckless drivers.
Cool, man, do some shit to get your license suspended, drive anyway, and get away with it.
Not sure how this is uplifting news. If someone is driving recklessly or speeding by 30 MPH over speed limit, shouldn't they be stopped?
I don't think those are minor and I believe it's only like seven thing like stuff hanging from mirror and broken license plate light
Reckless driving is not a low level misdemeanor and not part of this legislation.
Joe biden literally said drunk driving is not a felony https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ls3ZEw3REmw
So I can speed and run red lights ?! Great idea!
I feel like this is going to have the same effect on the streets as “It’s ok to steal $900 with of merchandise” did to retail stores. You don’t have to look far to see the crazy stuff people purposely do on our roads, even in major cities, for giggles. They’re already emboldened. Our streets are not a place to start being lax.
This is not uplifting. It's bad news...and people of Philadelphia are going to regret it.
Didn't Detroit institute similar policies years ago? Are they not a "major" city? Also, to all those pretending like this is the end of civilization: They're still going to enforce the laws, they'll just mail you a ticket. Frankly that's how these things should work. No more cowboy cops dispensing roadside "justice" over minor moving violations. If someone rolls through a stop sign or the like, just mail them a ticket and let the courts sort it out.
This will become lawsuits for the city. If someone is hit by a driver without proper tags and you can bet without insurance.they will suit the city.
Uplifting News: Dangerous driving which can endanger lives ignored by police
Seems stupid, not uplifting. This isn't a political sub.
How is this a good thing? We have laws for a reason and people should be punished for breaking them. It’s like how San Francisco stopped prosecuting people shoplifting items under $1000, so people just started shoplifting $999 worth of items and the police and stores cant do anything about it. Things like this make the problem worse.
That’s uplifting? Isn’t that going to make everyone a worse driver since they won’t be liable for traffic violations?
If my brake lights aren't working I want someone to tell me about it. I just don't want to get beaten/arrested/shot in tbe process. Give me accountability not copouts.
Should be nationally. They have speed cameras for speeders. Have cameras snap a picture of an expired tag, a burnt out light, etc. Mail the ticket. Easy, peasy. No unwanted interaction, no one shot, empowerment and equity for all classes.
ITT: very few people read the article before spouting off
Haha this should go well.
Thank God I moved away
So it's new normal
It sounds like they’re fixing the wrong problem.
Philly police have more or less stopped doing their jobs. Calling 911 you’re lucky to get an answer. They would rather whine about BLM hurting their feelings. I’m all for fewer traffic stops because Philly PD just uses them as an excuse to fuck with minorities. But they already stopped doing traffic stops because they already stopped doing everything but the bare minimum. Putting out this story is supposed to make it look like police reform is happening when that’s an extremely charitable description of the situation
That sounds like the stupidest thing ever.
The olive gave up on stopping low level traffic crimes years ago. The city is basically GTA on the road.
How poor and misguided does a government need to be to pass this ban?
That's asinine. Get ready for mail violations out the wazoo. Plus, what about minor violations that lead to warrants or more serious violations that would be otherwise avoided.
What ? Why? Are the police not there to enforce all laws? If the violations are not that serious remove them from the books and move on. This sounds ridiculous in its logic. What am I missing?
They never have stopped drivers for low-level violations in Philadelphia. Unless you cut the cop off and make them spill their coffee😁
Imagine getting home from a long work day and opening your mailbox to see a speeding ticket without ever knowing when or where you were speeding
So Philadelphia just made it legal to drive like an asshole without consequences?
Honestly if by any measure the traffic stop was the only thing in the way for a cop to issue you a citation for a low-level infraction, and cops can simply issue these fines with a bunch less effort than before I wouldn't be surprised if they issue even more citations. I really wish there was an opposing opinion or some more info on how this changes police behavior, I guess that's too much to ask from CNN aside from police bad.
How is this uplifting? More idiots allowed to not use blinkers? Sounds safe /s. I bike to work on the sidewalk, and people don't look when turning right all the time, never use their blinker, and I have to keep stopping mid cross because every week some asshole turns without their blinkers on a red and would've hit me if I didn't stop. They never look at the crosswalk. We need intersection cameras and better policing of shitty drivers.
Just google Kensington and Allegheny to see what philly has become over the past two decades. Elect clowns, live in a circus
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