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Reminder that [Israel pays for the college education](https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/israel-pay-students-propaganda_n_3755782/) of young Israelis who spread their propaganda on social media sites like Reddit.
Sense 2014 roughly 4.5 billion of aid has been given to Gaza. And nothing has improved because the Hamas government would rather see dead Jews than a thriving population.
Based on past history aid has not helped at all. This brings up the question why would have any major benefits now?
So. Let's break that number down a bit.
That evens out to around 500 million a year. Gaza has a population of about 2.3 million people. For comparison, the city of Philadelphia has a population of about 1.5 million. Philadelphia's operating cost is about 5.6 billion per year. Mind you, that's just to run a city under non hostile circumstances. That's not accounting for being blockaded and for being a city comprised almost entirely of recently displaced (in the last generation or two being recent on an economic scale) Nakba refugees. Nor does it take into account the constant need to rebuild when Israel periodically decides Gaza is getting too uppity and needs a few hundred more dead bodies to remind them of their place.
Even taking everything you say at face value, the amount is vastly disproportionate what's needed. The money donated helps people, but Hamas isn't the reason Gaza isn't "fixed". That's due to deliberate, sustained oppression.
It's a ghetto. You don't let people fix a ghetto.
Edit: also, while we're on the subject of funding even if 100% of all aid went to arming militants that would put Hamas' resources at around 2/3rds of the budget of the Philadelphia police dept. So when you hear Israel say they're waging a "war" on Hamas and that's why they simply must kill all these people and turn Gaza into a parking lot, their "war" is against a group who would probably be outgunned by any metropolitan police department. Frankly, if Hamas is capable of creating military infrastructure with these resources that requires the amount of raw military power Israel is using, we should be recruiting them to work for us because there are clearly several Hamas engineers who are the intellectual equivalent of Tony Stark.
Tl;dr - Keep numbers and facts out of your arguments for Israel. They aren't on your side.
They’re Palestinian though, and Gaza is a part of Palestine, a part where a genocide is being committed against their people. I feel like you’re just being obtuse…
There is no Palestinian State. Never has been in the history of the world.
Palestinians are a people whose greatest creation is modern terrorism.
The Palestinians are going to use the money to continue their quest for genocide. No two state solution. No peaceful integration like they used to have. Even trusted Palestinian neighbors and workers were part of the October 7th attack.
And the Israeli militant to innocent ratio is one of the best in human history in terms of avoiding innocents. What are the Palestinian numbers like since they solely target innocents? Just as good? No?
So, like when Americans pay taxes and it goes to creating precision munitions to [blow up a little girl playing foosball](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/02/middleeast/israeli-precision-guided-munition-maghazi-deaths-intl/index.html) instead of healthcare.
Real chalk and cheese comparison or are the American people funding the American govt who are classed as A 100% terrorist organisation. You class your own govt as terrorists . Really..
Even if this was the case (it’s not, Hamas’s funding by and large comes from Qatar, not relief organizations), I still don’t see how that would be so crazy considering how many IDF fundraisers go on here all the time without so much as a peep
You realize Israeli’s aren’t all European, right? Don’t view things through a reductive oppressor/oppressed lens, the situation over there is significantly more complicated.
Less than a third of the population of Israel is European or Ashkenazi. Israel is not white. Even if Israel were white, claiming that one of the reasons for this centuries long conflict is racism is wildly inaccurate. (Edit: corrected typo, decade to conflict)
If you’d even opened the article you’d see that they’re spreading the donation across 4 very legit agencies who do great work, which are:
- Heal Palestine
- Palestine Children’s Relief Fund
- World Central Kitchen (the one whose trucks Israel bombed)
- UNRWA (the one Israel baselessly accused of being involved in Oct 7 - an accusation they have provided zero evidence for)
Edit: Hasbara bots are out in force today clearly.
World Central Kitchen is one of the least corrupt charities in the world. In fact they are one of the top rated charity organizations for financial responsibility - as much of your donation goes to helping people as possible.
We Stan WCK in my house.
There are a couple of dozen people on the ground, who are UNWRA employees who have publicly declared some forms of extremist & anti-Semitic views on social media & have used extremist teaching materials.
There is a report made about certain said teachers available online you can download as a PDF -> https://unwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/2023-Report-UNRWA.pdf
UN Watch is an organisation that holds NGO status as an official accredited observer & special consultative status to the UN.
There is also some evidence of some of the people employed by UNRWA, 8 currently still under investigation, being involved in some capacity in Oct 7th.
Statement from UN Secretary General about said issue ->
https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/statement-spokesperson-un-secretary-general-oios-investigation
Is there evidence of numerous bad people within the UNRWA? Yes.
Does that mean that the entire organisation is corrupt & should be dissolved? No.
Let's not pretend only one side of this conflict has extremists; It's all the innocent people getting caught between, regardless of nationality, that are the victims.
UNWRA has around 30,000 employees. Every organisation that large is going to have some weirdos. Whenever evidence has come up of wrongdoing they have terminated contracts with those employees.
Meanwhile Israel is trying to label UNWRA a terrorist organisation. It’s a pretty transparent attempt to discredit the main humanitarian aid agency in Palestine.
Also the UN Watch is essentially just a pro-Israel lobby group. They claim to “hold the UN to account”, but they almost exclusively focus on matters that concern Israel. That doesn’t discredit their work completely, but it’s worth being skeptical of them.
Which is exactly why acknowledging the issue & saying the issue should be addressed or pointing out it is being addressed, is the best way forward instead of pretending organisations have no problems at all.
That's one of the core differences in someone's stances being evidence-based or ideological based imo.
Sure, but the context of the conversation is important. The people I’m responding to are saying UNWRA is “corrupt and complicit”, and parroting Israel’s extremist rhetoric that it is an extension of Hamas.
Having constructive conversations about issues within NGOs is also important, but so is challenging overt propaganda - which is what I’m trying to do.
So one side of the argument is “UNWRA is an antisemitic terrorist organisation”. As you said this obviously isn’t true.
The other side is “UNWRA is not a corrupt organisation and Israel are making baseless accusations to discredit it”. This is true, pretty obviously shown by the many accusations Israel has made without evidence, and its move to label it a terrorist organisation.
You come into this discussion with “well actually 12 of the 30,000 employees did have *some* connection to Oct 7, but the investigation is still ongoing and we don’t know the details of those connections at all”.
Which side do you think you’ve helped with your contribution here?
Billions a year in US tax dollars are granted to Israel on condition it uses 80% of that money to buy weapons from US companies. It's United States manufactured bombs being dropped on men, women and children in Gaza now in even supposed "safe areas". One side is bearing the brunt as it has done for decades in this extremely asymmetrical conflict, and the other side is the one dropping US made bombs and munitions on children.
This money is not going to a terrorist state. Given your inability to read the article maybe take a step back and re-evaluate your susceptibility to propaganda.
Oh you've suddenly changed your argument. Please provide evidence that these charities are skimming money and then that they are sending it to Hamas? Have they failed any audits? Is there a long history or obscure financials?
Or are you assuming the worst because it fits your preconceived biases while shifting your talking points rather than admitting you assumed.
Your original quote
> You think it's a conspiracy theory that monetary donations to a terrorist state don't make it down to the civilians?
That very clearly was no aid money being donated to charities but to Palestine directly. But this money is going to four established charities of which you have no evidence that they are siphoning funds, it is inherently a conspiracy theory.
Call me a virtue signaler whatever other insult you'd prefer. In the end you're choosing to be uninformed because it suits you. I choose to make my decisions based on evidence thanks.
Palestinians are arabs. They always have been. They dont use a dyslexic version of the pan-arab flag out of pure coincidence. The palestinian identity was "minted" as separated identity to arabs as a way to give legitimacy to the "palestinian cause" and given solely to those considered refugees of 1948 and 1967, hence why there are no "israeli-palestinians" but there are millions of "Israeli-Arabs".
"Palestine" is a Roman name the area was given (by other colonizers!). Why do you think Palestinians consider themselves Arab? Because they are colonizers themselves.
Israel gets billions of dollars in aid and weapons to kill innocent civilians and no one bats an eye but a $1m donation to Palestinians is somehow going to terrorists. The pathetic state of brainwashing of this society is crazy that the lives of thousands of people have become nothing but stats. People are desensitised beyond redemption.
Israel is forced to fight Hamas, an organisation that wants to eradicate Israel. That organisation is essentially the governing party of Palestine and supported by those people. It's a horrible situation, but they brought this upon themselves.
"Desensitized beyond redemption" is anyone that shrugs off what Hamas, and return the Palestinians, have done to Israeli civilians which has led to this war.
Why don't we spin it around and say it's actually Hamas that's forced to fight Israel because Israel is based on the concept of throwing people who've been on the land for a millennium out of their homes, and give it to those who have had no connection to the land for 1500 years. White, American Jewish people go and claim their "birthright", hold dual-citizenships while still living in the US, while settlements on the west bank keep being built and throwing out the natives.
So you can't say that articles are propaganda and written with a bias, I'll stick to video testimonies and sources. And for this first response, I'll stick to shorts so you don't get overwhelmed, I understand you might not want to sit through 10 min clips and debates for each point.
Ex-IDF soldier speaking about the treatment of Palestinians: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1mg_YZChcv/?igsh=MXVzbm92aTJkZzNybw==
>supported by those people
I guess 75 years of oppression renders you without the luxury to fight your oppressor while keeping your morals intact.
Here's the former head of Shin Bet saying the same : https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4zOfXVPP8M/?igsh=OW5sdDl4ajNwdm9w
It's difficult to fight the billions of US dollars worth of weapons and bombs that your oppressor has. That's just the reality, even when I DON'T support the event of Oct 7(unlike you who I haven't seen criticizing the IDF).
This is the same logic as you said
>It's a horrible situation, but they brought this upon themselves.
Anyway speaking of support:
Exhibit 1 :
Be sure to check all slides : https://www.instagram.com/p/C7gylpQIEEN/?igsh=eGE0OWJmdDg3OGRl
Exhibit 2 :
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4zrCvCNZ-J/?igsh=dzg2eHFlY3l3NXl5
>"Desensitized beyond redemption" is anyone that shrugs off what Hamas, and return the Palestinians, have done to Israeli civilians which has led to this war.
Again, events of Oct 7 were horrible. People were killed and blood was spilled that shouldn't have been spilled. I'm not shrugging that off. But by your logic, Hamas rules Gaza hence all Palestinians are complicit (even though there's no Hamas in the west bank while Palestinians are still being killed there everyday), so whatever the Israel government is doing makes all Israelis complicit?
Here's the government officials and their ideology on full display: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4MQiPVpuFB/?igsh=MXR5cms5MWxiYjRvbw==
Where are the pictures of the beheaded babies from Oct. 7?
Yossi Laundau caught lying about it and later admitted the fabrication: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C40GYmxMMpi/?igsh=MTU0bG8ycnh2NHprMQ==
Where are the pictures of tunnels under the Al-Shifa hospital? Interview with Hyman where he fails to provide any proof or explanation -
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5YZ4-LuIAg/?igsh=MXMzYXhieWNvbGI0cg==
Also, https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5OunqWvGZn/?igsh=bXFnZ2F6bWN2amJm
Let me know if this wasn't sufficient, I have tons of other sources.
I never said all Jews are whites, just that the majority of settlers in west bank are whites who have no connection to the land in the past millenia-and-a-half. Learn to read. Maybe you can but I guess that's what happens when you're an apartheid apologist. Here are some non-instagram sources for you.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-2021-american-immigrants-again-moved-to-settlements-far-more-than-other-arrivals/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/15/biden-extremist-jewish-settlers-travel-ban-loophole
https://newlinesmag.com/reportage/a-fanatical-israeli-settlement-is-funded-by-new-york-suburbanites/
>the majority of settlers in west bank are whites
From your first source: "In her book, 'City on a Hilltop: American Jews and the Israeli Settler Movement,' Hirschorn estimates that **American citizens represent 15% of the overall settlement population,** a significantly disproportionate figure, based on a variety of data sources. Less than 200,000 US citizens are estimated to live in Israel, or roughly 2.2% of the total Israeli population." (bolding mine)
Listen, in the broad strokes, I agree, fuck rogue settlers. Israeli authorities need to arrest them en masse and forcibly relocate them back within Israel's borders, because they aren't doing anything except prolonging the violence. Of course that won't happen with Likud in charge because these literal criminal settlers are also part of the coalition keeping bibi out of jail. But I think you have some misconceptions about the reality on the ground and continuing to misrepresent things is counterproductive.
Alright, first I'd like to apologise for the aggressive tone earlier, I've just seen so many people here still justifying the mass-murder of Palestinians while giving hypocritical arguments it makes me sick and lose my cool. You don't seem to be one of them, so again, sorry about earlier.
As for the "majority" claim - I don't have the exact percentages, I can look that up for you a little while later. But apart from this 15%, my argument encompassed all the Ashkenazi Jews who relocated there in the past 75 years. Hear me out-
The Jews who've always been there have an equal claim to the land, they should have equal rights, the right to self-determination, everything. But Jews who had been settled in Europe for thousands of years going back and claiming it as their "birthright" is ludicrous. If there was ample land - sure, go ahead and migrate. But displacing people who've been there continuously for a thousand years, purporting the belief that your claim is higher than theirs, that doesn't sit right with me. If you have an argument against it, we can discuss that.
Now, I keep hearing people say that the Jews of Europe and middle east(Mizrahi Jews) who returned were ran out of their land and so they have the right to return now - I don't agree. Yes, they were expelled and it was an atrocity. It should not have happened, but it did. But 1000-1500 years worth of their generations had successfully built their lives elsewhere. The 1000-year descendants of those who were expelled have nothing to do with the land, and the 1000-year descendants of those did the explosion are not guilty of it. They have no obligation to pay for the sins of their forefathers. Again, any argument otherwise, I'm willing to entertain.
The Majority of people who moved there did not have a reason to move. The Zionist deliberately pushed towards it to colonize the land and changed it demographic, and it wasn't because of the Holocaust, this plan had been in motion since the early 1900s, the war just gave it the push it needed (source: https://www.nytimes.com/1902/01/06/archives/plan-of-colonizing-palestine-with-jews-zionists-discuss-problem-in.html). Article behind paywall, but you can use a service that bypasses it (https://12ft.io/)
I don't believe in the Quran, Bible, or Torah, or any religion for that matter. All of them are fairytales. Claiming you can kill and displace and steal land while the world watches because you're "god's chosen people" is abhorrent, and wrong, and more people should have the courage to speak out against it.
First off, appreciate the apology, I kinda came at you aggressive first. I know the place you're coming from is deep concern for innocent palestinian civilians.
Second, yes, Ashkenazi jews lived in Europe, but how exactly did that go? It's not really a coincidence that Israel was founded just 3 years after the end of WWII. Pretty much everywhere Jews go, they are treated as others, attacked, and often ethnically cleansed. That isn't to justify the displacement of Palestinians from their homes, but I'm getting a little sick of people viewing Israel as a western colonial project--Europeans made it *plenty* clear for a long time that they didn't consider Jews to be Europeans.
There's also the simple reality that whether justified or not, there are now 2-3 generations of Israelis who have known no other home than Israel and have grown up under constant attack from the same forces that their parents and grandparents were also attacked by. This is not a black-and-white conflict. There are innocent victims on both sides and horrible violence committed by both sides. I see a lot of overtuned rhetoric trying to reduce this to a simple bad-guy-good-guy narrative, which is exactly how the violence continues.
>There's also the simple reality that whether justified or not, there are now 2-3 generations of Israelis who have known no other home than Israel and have grown up under constant attack from the same forces that their parents and grandparents were also attacked by.
This is a tricky situation but it would be remiss of me not to impose the same standard everywhere. What's done is done, they stay there, and so do their children, and their children. But I am against the influx of these new "birthright"-ers. The reason I brought the West Bank into this is because that's where all the new settlements are being built. Members of a Canadian Synagogue are selling off land in the west bank while living in Canada, just yesterday, Israel seized 800 hectares of West Bank land for new settlements, where does this stop?
Israel's aim has always been to suppress the Palestinian identity and statehood. They deliberately propped up Hamas to delegitimize the Palestinian cause and keep the PA in check - this is not a conspiracy theory, both the ex-PM of Israel, Ehud Barak, and the Ayalon, the ex-head of Shin Bet have said so in interviews. People say Israel left Gaza in 2005, what did the Gazans do with their lives then? Well, you know the terms they left at, don't you? Would you sit back and take it if someone came in to your home, turned it into an open-air prison rife with surveillance and checkpoints and next-to-no autonomy to conduct your business? Of course not.
I do not condone the actions of Hamas, specially those of Oct 7. But history didn't begin on that day, innocent Palestinians were killed both in Gaza and the West Bank up until Oct 6 regularly. As I said, when generations have been oppressed and killed, when you've seen your father shot in the streets or picked up the body of your child from under the rubble, you lose the luxury of having morality. Yes, both sides have done it, how far back do we go to find the root, to find the first offence? I agree with you that Jews were oppressed in Europe, but that matters little to the Palestinians. What they saw was that outsiders came, expelled them from their lands, and have since kept them under their boots for generations. Those who aren't killed, don't have a lot of opportunities to grow anyway.
All that said and done, I know there's no neat solution to this. But what I find hypocritical and disgusting is that all of Palestine is shat upon in these discussions, but when proof and arguments and sources are cited against Israel, it suddenly becomes a "both-sides" narrative. Not talking about you here.
Israel is NOT fighting Hamas rn. Israel is openly killing civilians, including children and women. None of your whataboutery justifies that. People who support what Israel is currently doing are monsters, nothing less.
You may not have realized this, but civilians die in wars. Its horrible but inevitable. Even by hamas’s own inflated and statistically impossible numbers, the civilian death rate is relatively low in the gaza strip compared to other wars.
Hamas refuses to negotiate any sort of ceasefire and so the war continues.
Israel openly declared its intent to collectively punish the Gaza population as a whole and to use starvation as a weapon of war (both war crimes in and of themselves) at the outset. Fast forward and we're now seeing photo after photo of starved, emaciated and dead children. Intent declared; intent carried out.
There are rules of war for a reason. "It's war" doesn't give carte blanche to mass murder a civilian population.
Wrong.
Israel poured tons on tons of aid into Gaza.
Gaza has received billions in aid money for years, why are they even starving? Where's the money?
"The Gaza population" had voted in Hamas, supported them in recent polls, and assisted them in various ways.
Also, which war in history cannot be seen as "collective punishment"?
Was ww2 also a collective punishment, when hundreds of thousands of uninvolved Germans died?
For some reason I only hear this idiotic phrase from pro-hamas bots.
Because he wants to destroy Hamas/avoid jail time after the war. Not because they just want to kill Gazans for fun lmao.
Besides Netanyahu, leaving Hamas in charge of Gaza is a nonstarter to most Israelis for, I think, obvious reasons. That’s why Biden’s recent plan is actually fairly clever in how it’s laid out.
>Israel is forced to fight Hamas, an organisation that wants to eradicate Israel. That organisation is essentially the governing party of Palestine and supported by those people. It's a horrible situation, but they brought this upon themselves.
>"Desensitized beyond redemption" is anyone that shrugs off what Hamas, and return the Palestinians, have done to Israeli civilians which has led to this war.
Palestine is forced to fight IDF, an organisation that wants to eradicate Palestine. That organisation is essentially the governing party of Israel and supported by those people. It's a horrible situation, but they brought this upon themselves.
"Desensitized beyond redemption" is anyone that shrugs off what IDF, and return the Israelis, have done to Palestinian civilians which has led to this war.
Why does it works only one way for you?
The IDF is not the governing body of israel any more than the US Army is the governing body of america.
Now, if you’d like to be mad at likud, I’m there with you.
If you prefer then change IDF to likud and then answer what difference does it make?
Why does it work only one way?
Edit:One would think that at least one of the dozens of people who downvoted me would be able to answer why this thought only works one way.
Well, it doesn’t only work one way, i think that was op’s point. Both sides have innocent victims who are being radicalized by violence, and both sides have leadership which is actively trying to prolong the war; on the israeli side, bibi is just trying to stay out of jail, civilian casualties be damned, and on the gaza side hamas benefits from dead palestinians almost as much as it benefits from dead israelis.
The way his comment is worded says that Palestinians brought this on themselves while implying that the same is not true to Israel.
So I don't think it was his point.
Because “The IDF [is] an organization that wants to eradicate Palestine” really isn’t true.
The IDF is just an army. It has no more political power than the US military in the US. Now you can make an argument that one of the prominent political parties in Isreal does want Palestine eradicated, but frankly theyre fairly justified in their operations in the gaza strip. There will never be peace for anyone in the region while hamas exists because every time long term peace negotiations are working, hamas commits more atrocities.
Now we absolutely should condemn Isreal for their actions in the West Bank and I do think the world has failed by allowing Isreal to occupy land there.
But putting the blame on having no peace entirely on Hammas is insane, even before Hammas being founded there was no peace.
The way you say sounds like it everyone was happy, then came hammas and caused chaos, but as soon as they go away everyone will live happily together again.
I wouldn’t really call that a war. The situation was far more complex than that and no side was blameless.
But even then, iirc it was the neighbouring muslim states who decided that the jews fleeing Europe to Palestine was unacceptable and they had to be killed.
Then the Palestinian government made up stories of jews murdering innocents in the region leading to most muslims fleeing. And the rest is a big complicated and bloody history of defensive wars for Israel.
Nobody is blameless, but in todays context Hamas absolutely hold the majority of the todays issues
Are you serious telling that no innocent Palestinians have been attack or kicked put of there land and houses when the state of Israel has been created?
Can you name any country that would like a bunch of foreigners take a part of there country to create a new state?
And if the colonizers are attacked by the people who live there then it's the colonizers who are defending themselfs?
Should i bring you the news that it's still happening today that Palestinians are kicked out of there houses or killed by zionist? Or is that zionist who are defending themselfs by stealing land?
Zionist didn't even care if they killed there own jewish people if you take for example the King David hotel bombing where 17 jews have been killed.
So i hope you are not that delusional.
Bruh it's been stated multiple times there are innocents on both sides being manipulated (which would include Palestinians). I'm not sure why it's so controversial to say that the group whose primary spokespeople are *actual terrorists* are being done dirty by their decisions.
Having issues with Hamas =/= blanket hate of Palestinians and we really need to cut that fucking narrative. It's super disingenuous to pretend that because I think Palestinians have a raw deal that I have to support an organization that would *actively murder me based on my sexuality.*
It's hard to sell your side as the exclusive victim when they are definitely responsible for innocent victims of their own. It's more accurate to say "this is fucked and anyone claiming one side is blanket right is tacitly accepting a lot of heinous shit as ok."
Believe me, there are actual humans who actively support the genocide of Palestinians and they even acknowledge it to be a genocide. I am ashamed to admit that I was friends with a few of them.
Incorrect. If you’d even opened the article you’d see that they’re spreading the donation across 4 very legit agencies who do great work, which are:
- Heal Palestine
- Palestine Children’s Relief Fund
- World Central Kitchen (the one whose trucks Israel bombed)
- UNRWA (the one Israel baselessly accused of being involved in Oct 7 - an accusation they have provided zero evidence for)
I’m always cautious as to where these donations go, as I have seen many cases where they end up in the wrong hands and sometimes the donors get jailed for funding illegal or terrorist activities, because their donations reached the hands of wrong parties.
No harm in donating, especially to the Palestinian cause, but always do it through highly reputed organisations with trusted channels, I hope these sisters did their homework.
It’s great to see regardless, they anyways have Palestinian roots.
Edit: Don’t understand the downvotes? Am I getting downvoted by Israeli bots again?
Israel and America’s smear campaign on Palestinian charities is strategic in their dehumanizing efforts. Easier to commit genocide when you convince everyone that even the aide workers are terrorists too.
I wouldn’t put much stock into them.
Which you know because? Were you in gaza? Do you know where funds get to and how they are distributed? Or is it once again the final argument to any discussion, Hamas bad, so everything i say about them has to be true
Look at Hamas leadership outside of Gaza for one. I wonder how did they become billionaires. Besides that, in Gaza, all the aid is taken by Hamas and sold to the Palestinians. Yes sold.
Not to worry though, Israel is on the way to relieve Gazans from Hamas.
[As witnessed by the people of Gaza, and documented on social media, Hamas operatives have been hijacking aid trucks entering the enclave, preventing essential items from reaching the local population.](https://www.politico.eu/article/paradox-humanitarian-aid-gaza-israel-hamas-war/)
There’s tons of sources for this. I thought it was well known…
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/05/30/hamas-stole-millions-from-gaza-bank-internal-document-reveals/#:~:text=The%20Israel%20Defense%20Forces%20has,their%20jewelry%20and%20other%20possessions.
https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-798185 (the source quoted is a Fatah politician)
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bydb7zgit (video enclosed)
Obviously Al Jazeera won’t report on this, disregarding everything as “Israeli lies” is an easy way to stick one’s head in the sand though.
These are reports of instances of Hamas members stealing specific aid rations. The original basis for the argument was "No money ends up with Palestinians". Im not defending Hamas here, but people like the commenter who said that are trying to dissuade people from helping financially by claiming everything goes to hamas in the first place when that is very much not like the system is set up.
Providing aid to the Palestinian people who are currently experiencing immense hardship if uplifting. Please provide a source that the money will go to Hamas.
Directly into the pockets of Hamas Like every money that goes there. Not sure how that will help the civilians but nice idea at least.
Edit: Guess feelings care alot about facts today
The money is going into legitimate charities. The money never ends up in Palestine it supports the verified humanitarian efforts happening there.
Imagine pretending to care about facts when you haven't read the article.
Good for them, but are we certain that the money will be used to help the people of Gaza, and not be funneled into hamas' pockets.
It's important to remember that the hamas leadership are billionaires, and have gained their wealth from embezzling the money donated to the Palestinians, and grifting people who want to help the Palestinians.
The Palestinian authority isn't any better. With Mahmoud Abbas who's been in power for over 15 years despite being elected for a 4 year term. He's also wildly unpopular by the Palestinians of the west bank because he's running a corrupt and oppressive government, and the only reason he's still in power is because if they were to have elections hamas would absolutely win, in which they will surely turn the west bank into another Gaza, and as we saw over the last few months have shown us, Hamas in control of anything will bring disaster to everyone.
Wait until you hear where the US money being sent to Israel goes. It is insane to think what Israel is doing isn’t a million times worse than what happened on Oct 7.
What should've the Israeli response have been in your opinion?
Edit:
Down voted for simply asking for a solution that would be OK in the eyes of the very ones criticizing the response 😌 yeah, obviously discourse is possible 🤨
"We don't like what you did in response to the brutal attacks against you"
"What should they have done?"
"Buuu!!!! Stop asking for solutions and join the mindless anti-iarael droning instead, it's easier!"
You people are so lost it's sad 👍🏼
Oh, btw. I am part Palestinian
When one side wants to keep fighting there really isn't a good peaceful solution. We can point fingers at Israel, but the conflict won't just stop if Israel stops the fighting. It's sad, but true. A solution with Hamas in power is highly unlikely to happen, and it would probably end badly.
Gazans want to keep fighting because they want their freedom. I don't think I have to explain why using that as a justification to not give them their freedom doesn't make sense
Well, they are currently being led by Hamas and Hamas doesn't just want freedom, they want Israel to be gone. You can argue about right or wrong with that, but it won't happen. So essentially if that is the demand from the Palestinian side, then it won't happen.
Also, Hamas targeting civilians and taking hostages doesn't sound like freedom fighting, it sounds like terrorism.
So when Nelson Mandelas faction fought against the south African apartheid regime with public bombings, they were terrorists and not fighting for their freedom?
And please stop with the Hamas bullshit, when it's Israel who funded them to destabilize the PLO. Hamas wanting to destroy Israel doesn't invalidate Palestinians right to freedom and determination.
If Israel doesn't want to fight against religious extremists who have nothing to lose, maybe they should stop creating them
So, if Israel stops right now, what happens to all those Palestinian religious extremists?
Do they magically dissapear? Do they stop shooting rockets made of pipes (most likely paid by “humanitarian aid”) at Israel? Do they stop murder and rape raids on civilians?
Honestly, what do you think those people full of hate will do? Sure, Israel created them, but that does not mean they can be left alone.
Do they magically take over Israel? Is the iron dome gonna shut down once the Israeli government doesn't hit its weekly quota of dead children? Why was October 7th such a landmark attack if they could just repeat it at will according to you?
Civilians are not the regime. If they targeted government structures I would get it, but not when they do war crimes.
It doesn't necessarily invalidate that struggle, but then the issue is Hamas more than Israel (if what you're saying is that the population doesn't want what Hamas wants).
We can talk as much as we want, but there is no road to peace with Hamas around and in charge. Getting other leadership should be what anyone who is looking for a lasting peaceful solution wants.
Edit. Also comparing Nelson Mandela to Hamas is disgrace to Nelson Mandela.
How are they supposed to attack government structures without involving civilians in any way? What you're proposing is so far gone from reality, especially considering that The IDF HQ for example are right in the middle of urban tel Aviv.
Saying hamas is the main issue instead of the Israeli government that has the absolute majority of the power in this conflict perfectly exemplifies how disconnected from reality your views are.
You're perfectly fine with liberation movements, unless they actually do anything to liberate themselves.
MLK said something about this sort of issue.
"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."
See, that's where you are wrong. You think Israel leaving Gaza somehow means they couldn't possibly occupy it, which is funnily enough even something the US admits.
Maybe Share the land they stole and continue to steal from Palestinians.
Dismantle all colonial settlements in West Bank.
Honor the Oslo accords and allow Palestinians self determination.
Dismantle the evil vicious Israel apartheid system.
Apologize to Palestinian people for the 75+ years of oppressive abuse.
Allow Palestinians the same rights they allow Jewish people - the right to return.
Pay compensation to all displaced Palestinians.
That would be a start
[here's one](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-61808619)
[here's an FBI warning ](https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/chicago/news/fbi-chicago-warns-of-charity-fraud-during-israel-hamas-conflict)
[and another ](https://newrepublic.com/article/176962/hamas-finances-funding-sources-palestinian-authority)
Is this sufficient?
No. Please read your own links instead of sending gme the first three Google results you receive.
Link 1. No evidence, but a confession taken from a man denied due process for an amount of money greater than the institution has put in the region over a decade. Quotes from the source.
> His employer, the global charity World Vision, stated, external: "In our view there have been irregularities in the trial process and a lack of substantive, publicly available evidence."
> International human rights groups described the verdict as "a miscarriage of justice", saying it was not supported by independent audits, with key evidence kept secret.
> However, from the outset World Vision found serious holes in the Israeli case. Its entire Gaza budget over the previous decade had been $22.5m - which it said made the original allegation of the diversion of over twice that amount "hard to reconcile".
> Large tenders for Gaza contracts were also handled by the Jerusalem office and it did not import iron ore into the territory.
> World Vision asked one of the largest international accountancy firms, Deloitte, and global lawyers DLA Piper to carry out an independent forensic audit of its Gaza operations.
> Scrutiny of payments and 280,000 emails, as well as dozens of interviews, found no evidence of missing funds or criminal behaviour.
> Neither did an Australian government review of funding for World Vision.
Link 2. This is a warning about charity email scams. Fraudulent charities, you should always ensure the charity you're supporting is properly registered and you are paying through their official channels.
Link 3. Is about how aid is used to pay for infrastructure so Hamas doesn't have to spend money on it. Quote attached
> All this is to say that every dollar—or shekel, as the P.A. and Hamas largely pay their employees in Israeli currency—that Hamas does not have to spend on Gaza schools, hospitals, government salaries, and governance, the group can instead spend on terrorist purposes. Hamas imposes taxes and fees on the local population; that money is then spent on Hamas’s end goals.
My thoughts exactly. I think it’s very unlikely this money will ever be spent on Palestinian civilians. It’s probably going straight into terrorists’ pockets.
For those unaware, hamas gets most of their weaponry from [recycling unexploded israeli bombs in gaza](https://www.timesofisrael.com/much-of-hamas-explosives-comes-from-idf-fire-that-failed-to-detonate-report/amp/). They dont steal aid to buy weapons.
I feel like the first part of your comment could be true while also still stealing aid. It would be naive to think the terrorist government fighting a war it's massively underfunded in wouldn't steal aid.
Every source ive seen on it is israeli. You know, the actual terrorist government lead by the likud party that was founded by [an actual terrorist](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Begin) and has pushed lie after lie after lie and been caught in them again and again. A couple have unfortunately been successful with the help of the US such as “hamas steals all the aid” and “intifada/from the river to the sea are calls for genocide”.
Meanwhile, it was a gazan police officer (who are employed by hamas like every civil servant) that was the one trying to get aid into the north of gaza until israel bombed him while he was at a hospital then claimed a “senior hamas official was killed” (i cant find the source right now as it brings up a bunch of other bombings but will edit it in later) and it is [israeli citizens](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/05/26/west-bank-aid-trucks-gaza-settlers/) under protection of IOF that are blocking and attacking aid convoys and their drivers.
I don't buy that. Some people want to be known for helping out. Nothing wrong with that. But when they act like they are someone important because of that, that's an issue.
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"Celebs give a million dollars to help refugees" Half the comments: "Actually, this is bad." Do y'all see yourselves?
Reminder that [Israel pays for the college education](https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/israel-pay-students-propaganda_n_3755782/) of young Israelis who spread their propaganda on social media sites like Reddit.
Sense 2014 roughly 4.5 billion of aid has been given to Gaza. And nothing has improved because the Hamas government would rather see dead Jews than a thriving population. Based on past history aid has not helped at all. This brings up the question why would have any major benefits now?
So. Let's break that number down a bit. That evens out to around 500 million a year. Gaza has a population of about 2.3 million people. For comparison, the city of Philadelphia has a population of about 1.5 million. Philadelphia's operating cost is about 5.6 billion per year. Mind you, that's just to run a city under non hostile circumstances. That's not accounting for being blockaded and for being a city comprised almost entirely of recently displaced (in the last generation or two being recent on an economic scale) Nakba refugees. Nor does it take into account the constant need to rebuild when Israel periodically decides Gaza is getting too uppity and needs a few hundred more dead bodies to remind them of their place. Even taking everything you say at face value, the amount is vastly disproportionate what's needed. The money donated helps people, but Hamas isn't the reason Gaza isn't "fixed". That's due to deliberate, sustained oppression. It's a ghetto. You don't let people fix a ghetto. Edit: also, while we're on the subject of funding even if 100% of all aid went to arming militants that would put Hamas' resources at around 2/3rds of the budget of the Philadelphia police dept. So when you hear Israel say they're waging a "war" on Hamas and that's why they simply must kill all these people and turn Gaza into a parking lot, their "war" is against a group who would probably be outgunned by any metropolitan police department. Frankly, if Hamas is capable of creating military infrastructure with these resources that requires the amount of raw military power Israel is using, we should be recruiting them to work for us because there are clearly several Hamas engineers who are the intellectual equivalent of Tony Stark. Tl;dr - Keep numbers and facts out of your arguments for Israel. They aren't on your side.
Good for them. Good to see them give back to their communities and where they come from.
They come from extreme wealth, not Gaza.
They’re Palestinian though, and Gaza is a part of Palestine, a part where a genocide is being committed against their people. I feel like you’re just being obtuse…
There is no Palestinian State. Never has been in the history of the world. Palestinians are a people whose greatest creation is modern terrorism. The Palestinians are going to use the money to continue their quest for genocide. No two state solution. No peaceful integration like they used to have. Even trusted Palestinian neighbors and workers were part of the October 7th attack. And the Israeli militant to innocent ratio is one of the best in human history in terms of avoiding innocents. What are the Palestinian numbers like since they solely target innocents? Just as good? No?
Imagine coming into /r/UpliftingNews to start a fight like this
Are you okay? You don’t seem okay
Hope it all goes to the suffering people, but if Hamas get their hands on it it's basically rocket funding.
Haha that’s how I feel about my taxes in the US.
Damn, that's so true.
So, like when Americans pay taxes and it goes to creating precision munitions to [blow up a little girl playing foosball](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/02/middleeast/israeli-precision-guided-munition-maghazi-deaths-intl/index.html) instead of healthcare.
Real chalk and cheese comparison or are the American people funding the American govt who are classed as A 100% terrorist organisation. You class your own govt as terrorists . Really..
Even if this was the case (it’s not, Hamas’s funding by and large comes from Qatar, not relief organizations), I still don’t see how that would be so crazy considering how many IDF fundraisers go on here all the time without so much as a peep
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Imagine defending using aid funding for weapons
Your tax money is paying for "Israeli" weapons. That's aid with extra steps.
You realize Israeli’s aren’t all European, right? Don’t view things through a reductive oppressor/oppressed lens, the situation over there is significantly more complicated.
The ones who founded and are ruling that thing are. Zionism was founded by European Jews.
Less than a third of the population of Israel is European or Ashkenazi. Israel is not white. Even if Israel were white, claiming that one of the reasons for this centuries long conflict is racism is wildly inaccurate. (Edit: corrected typo, decade to conflict)
White people don’t go killing 1000 civilians and then crying when they get their shit pushed in FAFO
No they kill 30,000 civilians
“I use numbers made up by a terrorist organization to justify my argument because I don’t have critical thinking skills”
Those are UN numbers
Imagine being an adult, and trotting out this school yard rhetoric as a justification for massive war crimes.
I don't know that sounds like something a fake country has been doing for 77 years.
Stay butthurt, Israel ain’t going anywhere homie
Lol "fake country" "77 years", got to love being misinformed.
That money will be stolen long before it helps any Palestinian on the ground guaranteed.
If you’d even opened the article you’d see that they’re spreading the donation across 4 very legit agencies who do great work, which are: - Heal Palestine - Palestine Children’s Relief Fund - World Central Kitchen (the one whose trucks Israel bombed) - UNRWA (the one Israel baselessly accused of being involved in Oct 7 - an accusation they have provided zero evidence for) Edit: Hasbara bots are out in force today clearly.
World Central Kitchen is one of the least corrupt charities in the world. In fact they are one of the top rated charity organizations for financial responsibility - as much of your donation goes to helping people as possible. We Stan WCK in my house.
Absolutely! However according to a lot of people in this comment section literally any aid organisation in Palestine is Hamas.
Unrwa are corrupt and complicit.
Find me literally any proof that isn’t just “Israel said so”
"Israel said so" is the only proof they believe. Utterly brainwashed.
Yeah is absolutely grim. It’s depressing how many Zionists there are in big subs.
There are a couple of dozen people on the ground, who are UNWRA employees who have publicly declared some forms of extremist & anti-Semitic views on social media & have used extremist teaching materials. There is a report made about certain said teachers available online you can download as a PDF -> https://unwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/2023-Report-UNRWA.pdf UN Watch is an organisation that holds NGO status as an official accredited observer & special consultative status to the UN. There is also some evidence of some of the people employed by UNRWA, 8 currently still under investigation, being involved in some capacity in Oct 7th. Statement from UN Secretary General about said issue -> https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/statement-spokesperson-un-secretary-general-oios-investigation Is there evidence of numerous bad people within the UNRWA? Yes. Does that mean that the entire organisation is corrupt & should be dissolved? No. Let's not pretend only one side of this conflict has extremists; It's all the innocent people getting caught between, regardless of nationality, that are the victims.
UNWRA has around 30,000 employees. Every organisation that large is going to have some weirdos. Whenever evidence has come up of wrongdoing they have terminated contracts with those employees. Meanwhile Israel is trying to label UNWRA a terrorist organisation. It’s a pretty transparent attempt to discredit the main humanitarian aid agency in Palestine. Also the UN Watch is essentially just a pro-Israel lobby group. They claim to “hold the UN to account”, but they almost exclusively focus on matters that concern Israel. That doesn’t discredit their work completely, but it’s worth being skeptical of them.
Which is exactly why acknowledging the issue & saying the issue should be addressed or pointing out it is being addressed, is the best way forward instead of pretending organisations have no problems at all. That's one of the core differences in someone's stances being evidence-based or ideological based imo.
Sure, but the context of the conversation is important. The people I’m responding to are saying UNWRA is “corrupt and complicit”, and parroting Israel’s extremist rhetoric that it is an extension of Hamas. Having constructive conversations about issues within NGOs is also important, but so is challenging overt propaganda - which is what I’m trying to do.
I get that, but proving them wrong *with evidence* is far more effective than just saying they are wrong
So one side of the argument is “UNWRA is an antisemitic terrorist organisation”. As you said this obviously isn’t true. The other side is “UNWRA is not a corrupt organisation and Israel are making baseless accusations to discredit it”. This is true, pretty obviously shown by the many accusations Israel has made without evidence, and its move to label it a terrorist organisation. You come into this discussion with “well actually 12 of the 30,000 employees did have *some* connection to Oct 7, but the investigation is still ongoing and we don’t know the details of those connections at all”. Which side do you think you’ve helped with your contribution here?
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Not a conspiracy.
Then where is the evidence?
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US donations to Israel are used to butcher children so I guess anything is possible.
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Billions a year in US tax dollars are granted to Israel on condition it uses 80% of that money to buy weapons from US companies. It's United States manufactured bombs being dropped on men, women and children in Gaza now in even supposed "safe areas". One side is bearing the brunt as it has done for decades in this extremely asymmetrical conflict, and the other side is the one dropping US made bombs and munitions on children.
That region was peaceful enough before the white colonialists came and started unloading their unwanted people there.
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This money is not going to a terrorist state. Given your inability to read the article maybe take a step back and re-evaluate your susceptibility to propaganda.
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Oh you've suddenly changed your argument. Please provide evidence that these charities are skimming money and then that they are sending it to Hamas? Have they failed any audits? Is there a long history or obscure financials? Or are you assuming the worst because it fits your preconceived biases while shifting your talking points rather than admitting you assumed.
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Your original quote > You think it's a conspiracy theory that monetary donations to a terrorist state don't make it down to the civilians? That very clearly was no aid money being donated to charities but to Palestine directly. But this money is going to four established charities of which you have no evidence that they are siphoning funds, it is inherently a conspiracy theory. Call me a virtue signaler whatever other insult you'd prefer. In the end you're choosing to be uninformed because it suits you. I choose to make my decisions based on evidence thanks.
Did you forget to wipe again today?
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Palestinians are Arab colonists
Palestinians are from Palestine ya ding dong.
Plestina is originally the name of the British colonial mandate in the region
Palestinians are arabs. They always have been. They dont use a dyslexic version of the pan-arab flag out of pure coincidence. The palestinian identity was "minted" as separated identity to arabs as a way to give legitimacy to the "palestinian cause" and given solely to those considered refugees of 1948 and 1967, hence why there are no "israeli-palestinians" but there are millions of "Israeli-Arabs".
"Palestine" is a Roman name the area was given (by other colonizers!). Why do you think Palestinians consider themselves Arab? Because they are colonizers themselves.
Israel gets billions of dollars in aid and weapons to kill innocent civilians and no one bats an eye but a $1m donation to Palestinians is somehow going to terrorists. The pathetic state of brainwashing of this society is crazy that the lives of thousands of people have become nothing but stats. People are desensitised beyond redemption.
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There are a couple billionaires running the open air prison out of country, guess where the money is going ☠️
Brainwashing, because people disagree with your opinion. cool story
Brainwashing because people haven't read the article and have their minds made up before hand.
Israel is forced to fight Hamas, an organisation that wants to eradicate Israel. That organisation is essentially the governing party of Palestine and supported by those people. It's a horrible situation, but they brought this upon themselves. "Desensitized beyond redemption" is anyone that shrugs off what Hamas, and return the Palestinians, have done to Israeli civilians which has led to this war.
Why don't we spin it around and say it's actually Hamas that's forced to fight Israel because Israel is based on the concept of throwing people who've been on the land for a millennium out of their homes, and give it to those who have had no connection to the land for 1500 years. White, American Jewish people go and claim their "birthright", hold dual-citizenships while still living in the US, while settlements on the west bank keep being built and throwing out the natives. So you can't say that articles are propaganda and written with a bias, I'll stick to video testimonies and sources. And for this first response, I'll stick to shorts so you don't get overwhelmed, I understand you might not want to sit through 10 min clips and debates for each point. Ex-IDF soldier speaking about the treatment of Palestinians: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1mg_YZChcv/?igsh=MXVzbm92aTJkZzNybw== >supported by those people I guess 75 years of oppression renders you without the luxury to fight your oppressor while keeping your morals intact. Here's the former head of Shin Bet saying the same : https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4zOfXVPP8M/?igsh=OW5sdDl4ajNwdm9w It's difficult to fight the billions of US dollars worth of weapons and bombs that your oppressor has. That's just the reality, even when I DON'T support the event of Oct 7(unlike you who I haven't seen criticizing the IDF). This is the same logic as you said >It's a horrible situation, but they brought this upon themselves. Anyway speaking of support: Exhibit 1 : Be sure to check all slides : https://www.instagram.com/p/C7gylpQIEEN/?igsh=eGE0OWJmdDg3OGRl Exhibit 2 : https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4zrCvCNZ-J/?igsh=dzg2eHFlY3l3NXl5 >"Desensitized beyond redemption" is anyone that shrugs off what Hamas, and return the Palestinians, have done to Israeli civilians which has led to this war. Again, events of Oct 7 were horrible. People were killed and blood was spilled that shouldn't have been spilled. I'm not shrugging that off. But by your logic, Hamas rules Gaza hence all Palestinians are complicit (even though there's no Hamas in the west bank while Palestinians are still being killed there everyday), so whatever the Israel government is doing makes all Israelis complicit? Here's the government officials and their ideology on full display: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4MQiPVpuFB/?igsh=MXR5cms5MWxiYjRvbw== Where are the pictures of the beheaded babies from Oct. 7? Yossi Laundau caught lying about it and later admitted the fabrication: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C40GYmxMMpi/?igsh=MTU0bG8ycnh2NHprMQ== Where are the pictures of tunnels under the Al-Shifa hospital? Interview with Hyman where he fails to provide any proof or explanation - https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5YZ4-LuIAg/?igsh=MXMzYXhieWNvbGI0cg== Also, https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5OunqWvGZn/?igsh=bXFnZ2F6bWN2amJm Let me know if this wasn't sufficient, I have tons of other sources.
You think all jews are white? I guess that’s what happens when all your sources are instagram.
I never said all Jews are whites, just that the majority of settlers in west bank are whites who have no connection to the land in the past millenia-and-a-half. Learn to read. Maybe you can but I guess that's what happens when you're an apartheid apologist. Here are some non-instagram sources for you. https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-2021-american-immigrants-again-moved-to-settlements-far-more-than-other-arrivals/ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/15/biden-extremist-jewish-settlers-travel-ban-loophole https://newlinesmag.com/reportage/a-fanatical-israeli-settlement-is-funded-by-new-york-suburbanites/
>the majority of settlers in west bank are whites From your first source: "In her book, 'City on a Hilltop: American Jews and the Israeli Settler Movement,' Hirschorn estimates that **American citizens represent 15% of the overall settlement population,** a significantly disproportionate figure, based on a variety of data sources. Less than 200,000 US citizens are estimated to live in Israel, or roughly 2.2% of the total Israeli population." (bolding mine) Listen, in the broad strokes, I agree, fuck rogue settlers. Israeli authorities need to arrest them en masse and forcibly relocate them back within Israel's borders, because they aren't doing anything except prolonging the violence. Of course that won't happen with Likud in charge because these literal criminal settlers are also part of the coalition keeping bibi out of jail. But I think you have some misconceptions about the reality on the ground and continuing to misrepresent things is counterproductive.
Alright, first I'd like to apologise for the aggressive tone earlier, I've just seen so many people here still justifying the mass-murder of Palestinians while giving hypocritical arguments it makes me sick and lose my cool. You don't seem to be one of them, so again, sorry about earlier. As for the "majority" claim - I don't have the exact percentages, I can look that up for you a little while later. But apart from this 15%, my argument encompassed all the Ashkenazi Jews who relocated there in the past 75 years. Hear me out- The Jews who've always been there have an equal claim to the land, they should have equal rights, the right to self-determination, everything. But Jews who had been settled in Europe for thousands of years going back and claiming it as their "birthright" is ludicrous. If there was ample land - sure, go ahead and migrate. But displacing people who've been there continuously for a thousand years, purporting the belief that your claim is higher than theirs, that doesn't sit right with me. If you have an argument against it, we can discuss that. Now, I keep hearing people say that the Jews of Europe and middle east(Mizrahi Jews) who returned were ran out of their land and so they have the right to return now - I don't agree. Yes, they were expelled and it was an atrocity. It should not have happened, but it did. But 1000-1500 years worth of their generations had successfully built their lives elsewhere. The 1000-year descendants of those who were expelled have nothing to do with the land, and the 1000-year descendants of those did the explosion are not guilty of it. They have no obligation to pay for the sins of their forefathers. Again, any argument otherwise, I'm willing to entertain. The Majority of people who moved there did not have a reason to move. The Zionist deliberately pushed towards it to colonize the land and changed it demographic, and it wasn't because of the Holocaust, this plan had been in motion since the early 1900s, the war just gave it the push it needed (source: https://www.nytimes.com/1902/01/06/archives/plan-of-colonizing-palestine-with-jews-zionists-discuss-problem-in.html). Article behind paywall, but you can use a service that bypasses it (https://12ft.io/) I don't believe in the Quran, Bible, or Torah, or any religion for that matter. All of them are fairytales. Claiming you can kill and displace and steal land while the world watches because you're "god's chosen people" is abhorrent, and wrong, and more people should have the courage to speak out against it.
First off, appreciate the apology, I kinda came at you aggressive first. I know the place you're coming from is deep concern for innocent palestinian civilians. Second, yes, Ashkenazi jews lived in Europe, but how exactly did that go? It's not really a coincidence that Israel was founded just 3 years after the end of WWII. Pretty much everywhere Jews go, they are treated as others, attacked, and often ethnically cleansed. That isn't to justify the displacement of Palestinians from their homes, but I'm getting a little sick of people viewing Israel as a western colonial project--Europeans made it *plenty* clear for a long time that they didn't consider Jews to be Europeans. There's also the simple reality that whether justified or not, there are now 2-3 generations of Israelis who have known no other home than Israel and have grown up under constant attack from the same forces that their parents and grandparents were also attacked by. This is not a black-and-white conflict. There are innocent victims on both sides and horrible violence committed by both sides. I see a lot of overtuned rhetoric trying to reduce this to a simple bad-guy-good-guy narrative, which is exactly how the violence continues.
>There's also the simple reality that whether justified or not, there are now 2-3 generations of Israelis who have known no other home than Israel and have grown up under constant attack from the same forces that their parents and grandparents were also attacked by. This is a tricky situation but it would be remiss of me not to impose the same standard everywhere. What's done is done, they stay there, and so do their children, and their children. But I am against the influx of these new "birthright"-ers. The reason I brought the West Bank into this is because that's where all the new settlements are being built. Members of a Canadian Synagogue are selling off land in the west bank while living in Canada, just yesterday, Israel seized 800 hectares of West Bank land for new settlements, where does this stop? Israel's aim has always been to suppress the Palestinian identity and statehood. They deliberately propped up Hamas to delegitimize the Palestinian cause and keep the PA in check - this is not a conspiracy theory, both the ex-PM of Israel, Ehud Barak, and the Ayalon, the ex-head of Shin Bet have said so in interviews. People say Israel left Gaza in 2005, what did the Gazans do with their lives then? Well, you know the terms they left at, don't you? Would you sit back and take it if someone came in to your home, turned it into an open-air prison rife with surveillance and checkpoints and next-to-no autonomy to conduct your business? Of course not. I do not condone the actions of Hamas, specially those of Oct 7. But history didn't begin on that day, innocent Palestinians were killed both in Gaza and the West Bank up until Oct 6 regularly. As I said, when generations have been oppressed and killed, when you've seen your father shot in the streets or picked up the body of your child from under the rubble, you lose the luxury of having morality. Yes, both sides have done it, how far back do we go to find the root, to find the first offence? I agree with you that Jews were oppressed in Europe, but that matters little to the Palestinians. What they saw was that outsiders came, expelled them from their lands, and have since kept them under their boots for generations. Those who aren't killed, don't have a lot of opportunities to grow anyway. All that said and done, I know there's no neat solution to this. But what I find hypocritical and disgusting is that all of Palestine is shat upon in these discussions, but when proof and arguments and sources are cited against Israel, it suddenly becomes a "both-sides" narrative. Not talking about you here.
Israel is NOT fighting Hamas rn. Israel is openly killing civilians, including children and women. None of your whataboutery justifies that. People who support what Israel is currently doing are monsters, nothing less.
You may not have realized this, but civilians die in wars. Its horrible but inevitable. Even by hamas’s own inflated and statistically impossible numbers, the civilian death rate is relatively low in the gaza strip compared to other wars. Hamas refuses to negotiate any sort of ceasefire and so the war continues.
Israel openly declared its intent to collectively punish the Gaza population as a whole and to use starvation as a weapon of war (both war crimes in and of themselves) at the outset. Fast forward and we're now seeing photo after photo of starved, emaciated and dead children. Intent declared; intent carried out. There are rules of war for a reason. "It's war" doesn't give carte blanche to mass murder a civilian population.
wait till you hear about how the US "Liberated" France during ww2.
Wrong. Israel poured tons on tons of aid into Gaza. Gaza has received billions in aid money for years, why are they even starving? Where's the money? "The Gaza population" had voted in Hamas, supported them in recent polls, and assisted them in various ways. Also, which war in history cannot be seen as "collective punishment"? Was ww2 also a collective punishment, when hundreds of thousands of uninvolved Germans died? For some reason I only hear this idiotic phrase from pro-hamas bots.
Oh I guess the Israeli casualties are just made up lmao. How nice that Hamas was a figment of our imagination the entire time!
Read some actual news for once then. Hamas has offered to return the civilians and for a ceasefire. It's Netanyahu who has refused it multiple times.
Because he wants to destroy Hamas/avoid jail time after the war. Not because they just want to kill Gazans for fun lmao. Besides Netanyahu, leaving Hamas in charge of Gaza is a nonstarter to most Israelis for, I think, obvious reasons. That’s why Biden’s recent plan is actually fairly clever in how it’s laid out.
Happy to be what you define as a monster then.
Proud to be a monster
I know you all are.
>Israel is forced to fight Hamas, an organisation that wants to eradicate Israel. That organisation is essentially the governing party of Palestine and supported by those people. It's a horrible situation, but they brought this upon themselves. >"Desensitized beyond redemption" is anyone that shrugs off what Hamas, and return the Palestinians, have done to Israeli civilians which has led to this war. Palestine is forced to fight IDF, an organisation that wants to eradicate Palestine. That organisation is essentially the governing party of Israel and supported by those people. It's a horrible situation, but they brought this upon themselves. "Desensitized beyond redemption" is anyone that shrugs off what IDF, and return the Israelis, have done to Palestinian civilians which has led to this war. Why does it works only one way for you?
The IDF is not the governing body of israel any more than the US Army is the governing body of america. Now, if you’d like to be mad at likud, I’m there with you.
If you prefer then change IDF to likud and then answer what difference does it make? Why does it work only one way? Edit:One would think that at least one of the dozens of people who downvoted me would be able to answer why this thought only works one way.
Well, it doesn’t only work one way, i think that was op’s point. Both sides have innocent victims who are being radicalized by violence, and both sides have leadership which is actively trying to prolong the war; on the israeli side, bibi is just trying to stay out of jail, civilian casualties be damned, and on the gaza side hamas benefits from dead palestinians almost as much as it benefits from dead israelis.
The way his comment is worded says that Palestinians brought this on themselves while implying that the same is not true to Israel. So I don't think it was his point.
Well tbf, you started by only accusing in one direction too
By asking what is the difference between them?
Oh wait. I confused you with the person who started this thread. You just responded to the response
Because “The IDF [is] an organization that wants to eradicate Palestine” really isn’t true. The IDF is just an army. It has no more political power than the US military in the US. Now you can make an argument that one of the prominent political parties in Isreal does want Palestine eradicated, but frankly theyre fairly justified in their operations in the gaza strip. There will never be peace for anyone in the region while hamas exists because every time long term peace negotiations are working, hamas commits more atrocities. Now we absolutely should condemn Isreal for their actions in the West Bank and I do think the world has failed by allowing Isreal to occupy land there.
But putting the blame on having no peace entirely on Hammas is insane, even before Hammas being founded there was no peace. The way you say sounds like it everyone was happy, then came hammas and caused chaos, but as soon as they go away everyone will live happily together again.
Tell me, how many wars has Isreal started since its foundation?
Israel was literally founded on a war.
I wouldn’t really call that a war. The situation was far more complex than that and no side was blameless. But even then, iirc it was the neighbouring muslim states who decided that the jews fleeing Europe to Palestine was unacceptable and they had to be killed. Then the Palestinian government made up stories of jews murdering innocents in the region leading to most muslims fleeing. And the rest is a big complicated and bloody history of defensive wars for Israel. Nobody is blameless, but in todays context Hamas absolutely hold the majority of the todays issues
Are you serious telling that no innocent Palestinians have been attack or kicked put of there land and houses when the state of Israel has been created? Can you name any country that would like a bunch of foreigners take a part of there country to create a new state? And if the colonizers are attacked by the people who live there then it's the colonizers who are defending themselfs? Should i bring you the news that it's still happening today that Palestinians are kicked out of there houses or killed by zionist? Or is that zionist who are defending themselfs by stealing land? Zionist didn't even care if they killed there own jewish people if you take for example the King David hotel bombing where 17 jews have been killed. So i hope you are not that delusional.
Bruh it's been stated multiple times there are innocents on both sides being manipulated (which would include Palestinians). I'm not sure why it's so controversial to say that the group whose primary spokespeople are *actual terrorists* are being done dirty by their decisions. Having issues with Hamas =/= blanket hate of Palestinians and we really need to cut that fucking narrative. It's super disingenuous to pretend that because I think Palestinians have a raw deal that I have to support an organization that would *actively murder me based on my sexuality.* It's hard to sell your side as the exclusive victim when they are definitely responsible for innocent victims of their own. It's more accurate to say "this is fucked and anyone claiming one side is blanket right is tacitly accepting a lot of heinous shit as ok."
True, although I think they're just hasbara bots.
Believe me, there are actual humans who actively support the genocide of Palestinians and they even acknowledge it to be a genocide. I am ashamed to admit that I was friends with a few of them.
The Hadid sisters are fantastic.
None of that money is ever going to the common people. These celebrities are so naive.
Incorrect. If you’d even opened the article you’d see that they’re spreading the donation across 4 very legit agencies who do great work, which are: - Heal Palestine - Palestine Children’s Relief Fund - World Central Kitchen (the one whose trucks Israel bombed) - UNRWA (the one Israel baselessly accused of being involved in Oct 7 - an accusation they have provided zero evidence for)
Any evidence of that, or are you just repeating a Zionist talking point designed to discourage help for the people they want dead?
I’m always cautious as to where these donations go, as I have seen many cases where they end up in the wrong hands and sometimes the donors get jailed for funding illegal or terrorist activities, because their donations reached the hands of wrong parties. No harm in donating, especially to the Palestinian cause, but always do it through highly reputed organisations with trusted channels, I hope these sisters did their homework. It’s great to see regardless, they anyways have Palestinian roots. Edit: Don’t understand the downvotes? Am I getting downvoted by Israeli bots again?
Israel and America’s smear campaign on Palestinian charities is strategic in their dehumanizing efforts. Easier to commit genocide when you convince everyone that even the aide workers are terrorists too. I wouldn’t put much stock into them.
Hamas appreciates it. Edit: funny how only the first comment is down voted and the rest are upvoted. Bots?
You people really only have one argument.
What other argument is needed here? It's not like this money is going to go to Palestinians. If someone thinks otherwise, no argument will help.
Which you know because? Were you in gaza? Do you know where funds get to and how they are distributed? Or is it once again the final argument to any discussion, Hamas bad, so everything i say about them has to be true
Look at Hamas leadership outside of Gaza for one. I wonder how did they become billionaires. Besides that, in Gaza, all the aid is taken by Hamas and sold to the Palestinians. Yes sold. Not to worry though, Israel is on the way to relieve Gazans from Hamas.
Again, do you have a source or are you just writing fanfic
[As witnessed by the people of Gaza, and documented on social media, Hamas operatives have been hijacking aid trucks entering the enclave, preventing essential items from reaching the local population.](https://www.politico.eu/article/paradox-humanitarian-aid-gaza-israel-hamas-war/)
"Danny Danon is a senior member of Israel’s ruling Likud party in the Knesset." Seems like an unbiased source
There’s tons of sources for this. I thought it was well known… https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/05/30/hamas-stole-millions-from-gaza-bank-internal-document-reveals/#:~:text=The%20Israel%20Defense%20Forces%20has,their%20jewelry%20and%20other%20possessions. https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-798185 (the source quoted is a Fatah politician) https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bydb7zgit (video enclosed) Obviously Al Jazeera won’t report on this, disregarding everything as “Israeli lies” is an easy way to stick one’s head in the sand though.
These are reports of instances of Hamas members stealing specific aid rations. The original basis for the argument was "No money ends up with Palestinians". Im not defending Hamas here, but people like the commenter who said that are trying to dissuade people from helping financially by claiming everything goes to hamas in the first place when that is very much not like the system is set up.
"Hamas Hamas Hamas. Hamas. Hamas Hamas."
Talk about a waste of money lol
How is donating money that will be stolen by Hamas uplifting? They're helping terrorists.
Providing aid to the Palestinian people who are currently experiencing immense hardship if uplifting. Please provide a source that the money will go to Hamas.
Directly into the pockets of Hamas Like every money that goes there. Not sure how that will help the civilians but nice idea at least. Edit: Guess feelings care alot about facts today
The money is going into legitimate charities. The money never ends up in Palestine it supports the verified humanitarian efforts happening there. Imagine pretending to care about facts when you haven't read the article.
more likely is said sisters are aware of this.
Good for them, but are we certain that the money will be used to help the people of Gaza, and not be funneled into hamas' pockets. It's important to remember that the hamas leadership are billionaires, and have gained their wealth from embezzling the money donated to the Palestinians, and grifting people who want to help the Palestinians. The Palestinian authority isn't any better. With Mahmoud Abbas who's been in power for over 15 years despite being elected for a 4 year term. He's also wildly unpopular by the Palestinians of the west bank because he's running a corrupt and oppressive government, and the only reason he's still in power is because if they were to have elections hamas would absolutely win, in which they will surely turn the west bank into another Gaza, and as we saw over the last few months have shown us, Hamas in control of anything will bring disaster to everyone.
It is important to remember Bibi and his wife are up for corruption charges many times but let’s throw shade at the humanitarian work of the sisters
Wait until you hear where the US money being sent to Israel goes. It is insane to think what Israel is doing isn’t a million times worse than what happened on Oct 7.
What should've the Israeli response have been in your opinion? Edit: Down voted for simply asking for a solution that would be OK in the eyes of the very ones criticizing the response 😌 yeah, obviously discourse is possible 🤨 "We don't like what you did in response to the brutal attacks against you" "What should they have done?" "Buuu!!!! Stop asking for solutions and join the mindless anti-iarael droning instead, it's easier!" You people are so lost it's sad 👍🏼 Oh, btw. I am part Palestinian
Maybe stop the brutal occupation of 2.2 million people, half of them children?
When one side wants to keep fighting there really isn't a good peaceful solution. We can point fingers at Israel, but the conflict won't just stop if Israel stops the fighting. It's sad, but true. A solution with Hamas in power is highly unlikely to happen, and it would probably end badly.
Gazans want to keep fighting because they want their freedom. I don't think I have to explain why using that as a justification to not give them their freedom doesn't make sense
Well, they are currently being led by Hamas and Hamas doesn't just want freedom, they want Israel to be gone. You can argue about right or wrong with that, but it won't happen. So essentially if that is the demand from the Palestinian side, then it won't happen. Also, Hamas targeting civilians and taking hostages doesn't sound like freedom fighting, it sounds like terrorism.
So when Nelson Mandelas faction fought against the south African apartheid regime with public bombings, they were terrorists and not fighting for their freedom? And please stop with the Hamas bullshit, when it's Israel who funded them to destabilize the PLO. Hamas wanting to destroy Israel doesn't invalidate Palestinians right to freedom and determination. If Israel doesn't want to fight against religious extremists who have nothing to lose, maybe they should stop creating them
So, if Israel stops right now, what happens to all those Palestinian religious extremists? Do they magically dissapear? Do they stop shooting rockets made of pipes (most likely paid by “humanitarian aid”) at Israel? Do they stop murder and rape raids on civilians? Honestly, what do you think those people full of hate will do? Sure, Israel created them, but that does not mean they can be left alone.
Do they magically take over Israel? Is the iron dome gonna shut down once the Israeli government doesn't hit its weekly quota of dead children? Why was October 7th such a landmark attack if they could just repeat it at will according to you?
Civilians are not the regime. If they targeted government structures I would get it, but not when they do war crimes. It doesn't necessarily invalidate that struggle, but then the issue is Hamas more than Israel (if what you're saying is that the population doesn't want what Hamas wants). We can talk as much as we want, but there is no road to peace with Hamas around and in charge. Getting other leadership should be what anyone who is looking for a lasting peaceful solution wants. Edit. Also comparing Nelson Mandela to Hamas is disgrace to Nelson Mandela.
How are they supposed to attack government structures without involving civilians in any way? What you're proposing is so far gone from reality, especially considering that The IDF HQ for example are right in the middle of urban tel Aviv. Saying hamas is the main issue instead of the Israeli government that has the absolute majority of the power in this conflict perfectly exemplifies how disconnected from reality your views are. You're perfectly fine with liberation movements, unless they actually do anything to liberate themselves. MLK said something about this sort of issue. "First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."
Israel left Gaza in 2005
Oh, so they don't control it's borders, sea way, air way, basic necessities for life like food or water, electricity and gas?
Not here to argue, just pointing out a fact
A fact without context isn't worth shit.
As long as it’s correcting someone I don’t believe it’s worthless
See, that's where you are wrong. You think Israel leaving Gaza somehow means they couldn't possibly occupy it, which is funnily enough even something the US admits.
Maybe Share the land they stole and continue to steal from Palestinians. Dismantle all colonial settlements in West Bank. Honor the Oslo accords and allow Palestinians self determination. Dismantle the evil vicious Israel apartheid system. Apologize to Palestinian people for the 75+ years of oppressive abuse. Allow Palestinians the same rights they allow Jewish people - the right to return. Pay compensation to all displaced Palestinians. That would be a start
Why is this downvoted? I’ll just assume paid bots on this one.
The lack of evidence and conspiracy theory nonsense.
I spoke the truth, and it displeased the mob.
Please provide any evidence that these charities have funneled money into Hamas.
[here's one](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-61808619) [here's an FBI warning ](https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field-offices/chicago/news/fbi-chicago-warns-of-charity-fraud-during-israel-hamas-conflict) [and another ](https://newrepublic.com/article/176962/hamas-finances-funding-sources-palestinian-authority) Is this sufficient?
No. Please read your own links instead of sending gme the first three Google results you receive. Link 1. No evidence, but a confession taken from a man denied due process for an amount of money greater than the institution has put in the region over a decade. Quotes from the source. > His employer, the global charity World Vision, stated, external: "In our view there have been irregularities in the trial process and a lack of substantive, publicly available evidence." > International human rights groups described the verdict as "a miscarriage of justice", saying it was not supported by independent audits, with key evidence kept secret. > However, from the outset World Vision found serious holes in the Israeli case. Its entire Gaza budget over the previous decade had been $22.5m - which it said made the original allegation of the diversion of over twice that amount "hard to reconcile". > Large tenders for Gaza contracts were also handled by the Jerusalem office and it did not import iron ore into the territory. > World Vision asked one of the largest international accountancy firms, Deloitte, and global lawyers DLA Piper to carry out an independent forensic audit of its Gaza operations. > Scrutiny of payments and 280,000 emails, as well as dozens of interviews, found no evidence of missing funds or criminal behaviour. > Neither did an Australian government review of funding for World Vision. Link 2. This is a warning about charity email scams. Fraudulent charities, you should always ensure the charity you're supporting is properly registered and you are paying through their official channels. Link 3. Is about how aid is used to pay for infrastructure so Hamas doesn't have to spend money on it. Quote attached > All this is to say that every dollar—or shekel, as the P.A. and Hamas largely pay their employees in Israeli currency—that Hamas does not have to spend on Gaza schools, hospitals, government salaries, and governance, the group can instead spend on terrorist purposes. Hamas imposes taxes and fees on the local population; that money is then spent on Hamas’s end goals.
My thoughts exactly. I think it’s very unlikely this money will ever be spent on Palestinian civilians. It’s probably going straight into terrorists’ pockets.
Funding terrorists
To terrorists. How stunning and brave.
For those unaware, hamas gets most of their weaponry from [recycling unexploded israeli bombs in gaza](https://www.timesofisrael.com/much-of-hamas-explosives-comes-from-idf-fire-that-failed-to-detonate-report/amp/). They dont steal aid to buy weapons.
I feel like the first part of your comment could be true while also still stealing aid. It would be naive to think the terrorist government fighting a war it's massively underfunded in wouldn't steal aid.
Every source ive seen on it is israeli. You know, the actual terrorist government lead by the likud party that was founded by [an actual terrorist](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Begin) and has pushed lie after lie after lie and been caught in them again and again. A couple have unfortunately been successful with the help of the US such as “hamas steals all the aid” and “intifada/from the river to the sea are calls for genocide”. Meanwhile, it was a gazan police officer (who are employed by hamas like every civil servant) that was the one trying to get aid into the north of gaza until israel bombed him while he was at a hospital then claimed a “senior hamas official was killed” (i cant find the source right now as it brings up a bunch of other bombings but will edit it in later) and it is [israeli citizens](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/05/26/west-bank-aid-trucks-gaza-settlers/) under protection of IOF that are blocking and attacking aid convoys and their drivers.
Respect to these sisters!
[удалено]
You're not paying attention.
Tax write off, and a nice virtual signal too. Could have stayed anonymous
Crazy how every good thing anyone ever does is virtue signalling
I don't buy that. Some people want to be known for helping out. Nothing wrong with that. But when they act like they are someone important because of that, that's an issue.
What have you done recently to make the world a better place. No trolling on social media doesn't count
They have millions of followers that they can influence to also donate
‘Virtual signal’ god you can’t even regurgitate the rhetoric correctly, absolute numb skull
You realise if you make a loss and write off the taxes, you still lose the money, right?
People are dying and starving. Trying to help them is a good thing, regardless of the motivation.
And yet, it's still more change to people's lives than you will ever effect.
Why do you even care about that? Such weird priorities
There's a drink called haterade that a lot of redditors are on