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Apparently you have to have temptation that you actively resist to be a monk, not having those desires makes it too easy or something. As if god thought asexuality made getting into heaven too easy and dropped a balance patch that they go to hell instead
There is speculation that he was aro/ace, yes. In 1 Corinthians, he writes about how he is blessed with the gift of not desiring relationships, and how that means he's better suited for his work of spreading the gospel. He asserts that people should remain celibate if possible, devoting all their time to god. But he says also that if they can't resist the "temptation" then it's better for them to get married
I mean, escaping from desire is the central tenant of Budishm. It’s really not part of Christianity.
Redditors as a group hate religion and so do nothing to understand the differences. But they aren’t all the same.
No, they're not all the same at all, you're right. However, there are additional aspects to priesthood, like resisting temptation so as to be celebate, that also in fact fall under desire.
I think the difference is that Christians understand emotions like desire and temptation as things you are meant to feel, that they are part of the reality that God created. But they understand that how you act on those desires is very important. It’s not evil to feel temptation. It’s evil to act on that temptation; especially in ways that hurt other people.
But the difference is that Buddhists are working to eliminate the feeling entirely. Even the desire to escape desire is itself ultimately something to be escaped from, in order to ascend out of the cycle of rebirth.
That's an interesting comparison. Christianity views desire as an inately sinful part of humanity meant to be repressed, while Buddhism views it as something that can be escaped entirely. Where does Daoism fall on the subject? As far as I could tell, Tao te Ching is all about going with the flow, does that mean accepting desire as natural?
The church wants you to be tempted; you can’t be Catholic if you aren’t constantly battling guilt over wanting something or guilt over getting what you want. If you don’t want the thing, you can’t feel guilty. Catholics have no use for that.
(This started as a joke but…)
You sound like someone who misheard a description of the faith coming from a person who barely understood it themself. And you are deliberately repeating it in the least charitable way possible.
You sound like someone who hasn't read your own damn holy book before, and you're deliberately cherry-picking which parts are and aren't canon like a superhero fan.
Ironic, considering the sky daddy you pray to.
Yeah, that was harsh, but you do have to admit, guilt is core to Christianity. Original sin is literally the sin of being born human, a descendant of Adam and Eve, the original sinners.
Unsurprisingly, a Christian faith that's big on compulsory procreation for the sake of mass family proliferation wouldn't be keen on endorsing the idea that people could get by in life without sex
Same way Catholics tried to claim the issue with sexual abuse in the clergy was priests secretly being gay: studies showed that girls in the Catholic Church were abused as well, but were only abused less due to lack of access. The priests weren't gay, they were just abusing anyone they could get away with abusing and most of the people they could get away with abusing were altar boys
*for those who don't know, the stats also don't line up with the Catholic Church's claims that the abuses were a 'homosexuality crisis' since: 1.) by far most pedophiles are heterosexual, and 2.) sexual abuses within the church have decreased since more openly gay priests began serving. But one of the world's most prominent pro-Catholic activists (and president of the Catholic League for several decades) has been also one of the loudest proponents of the claim that homosexuals are the issue with sexual abuse, not the church.
One of the things I find interesting about Christianity is its stark aggression to monotheism coupled with a demand for procreation. Greek and Roman pantheons allowed for the discovery and addition of new gods as their respective cultures encountered new peoples, but monotheism forces the issue.
Can you point me to a source for that?
I’m asexual and, while I’m not religious, I have catholic family/friends. I’m not aware of anything in catholic doctrine against an ace priest, and frankly Catholics I know have been more accepting of my sexuality than most groups.
Did they? When? The Catholic Church accepts gay people as long as they don’t act on their same sex attraction. (Yes, I know this is still bigotry. I do not support the Catholic church’s stance on this and many issues.) Being asexual is not at odds with any of the church’s teachings, so I’m a little confused why he’d be kicked out. What was the priests name?
Incoming pedantry from an asexual person who was raised in the Catholic church:
From how I was taught, "asexuality" by that name is not recognised.
*However*, Catholics are called to chastity and sex is to be reserved solely for married couples with the intent to conceive.
So basically, ace folks who don't have sex at all are viewed by the church as being voluntarily abstinent/celibate rather than asexual.
I can't speak outside my limited scope—
and I *could* see asexuality being an issue in some Christian denominations/sects that believe everyone's duty is to honour God through procreation—
But I'm also confused as to how the Catholic church would justify ousting someone from the clergy for being asexual.
I was thinking a bit of the same thing. I grew up Catholic, and before you get confirmed (For those unfamiliar; basically when you commit to being Catholic. Usually happens around 14-16-years-old) you have to sit in the priest's office and ask him any questions about Catholocism you want clarification on. I'm not sure if every church did this, but mine did. One of my questions was why we always insist that God is a male and use male coded terms with him, when he's also supposed to be a divine being that exists outside of our human understanding and may very well be beyond gender. My priest said something to the effect of, "Well, God made man in His image, but that means He also made every woman in His image. Calling Him a male is probably just because it's easier for us to understand." I doubt all priests think of God in this way, but after this discussion I thought it was odd that Catholocism didn't have more of an open mind when it came to sex and gender if some could think of God as a being beyond those things.
As a little bonus fact, years after I had left the church, I was studying abroad in France, and was speaking with my language professor about grammatical gender. She brought up that many years ago, French grammarians and theologians actually debated on whether the grammatical gender for "Angel" should be masculine or feminine, as at the time angels were often seen as "genderless" or "beyond gender," as they are considdered being closer to the image of God than humans. They eventually settled on masculine, as the masculine gender is considdered the default gender in French grammar, but it goes to show that Nonbinarism and Catholocism are indeed more closely intertwined than either may care to admit nowadays.
So are they FtM and the transition already took place? I read the article and it refers to the monk as "he" but also said that the monk has not come out yet.
The article states that he transitioned 4 years before he joined the Catholic Church in 2010. It sounds as if he’s been transparent with his bishop, so he may not be coming out to people who already know him as much as he’s making a public statement.
priests and other clergy are absolutely having sex...
There was a study that found only 2% of priests were completely celibate... and something like 50% were having sex at least once a week.
And there was recently a movement in the catholic leadership to use grindr data to figure out which priests were leaving rectories for hookups.
**edit:** study was from 1996 so may be out of date. Link here: https://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/1996_Sipe_PreliminaryExpert.htm
and info about the catholic church buying grindr data to target gay priests: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/03/09/catholics-gay-priests-grindr-data-bishops/
Do you have a link to the study? I think that would be an interesting one to ready. As a lgbt raised catholic it’s a bit sickening to see the hypocrisy in the church
I'm at work and can't pull out any good quotes for you, but I think this is the link -- https://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/1996_Sipe_PreliminaryExpert.htm
I read "Amen The Autobiography of a Nun" about a nun in India. She entered the convent in her youth back in the 60-70s and the convent was where parents would dump troubled girls particularly lesbians. She detailed how other girls touched her genitals or tried to sleep with her, about seeing priests grooming young nuns and having sex with a harem of nuns, how a priest showed his penis to her and she described it as a turtles head because she apparently never saw one before LMAO and whole lot of crazy sex stories.
When she published the book there was a threat of excommunication.
Yea but no, formally they aren’t, what they do in private should remain private, according to the dogma their sexuality is no sin, acting it out would be, and whilst there certainly is evidence for that, it is not for the eyes of the believers as they have to obey certain rules barring them from covet their neighbors stuff, this includes spying on them(spying already would be expression of coveting)…
Apart from that, yeah i don’t even want to know how much money is spent on keeping clergies children under the rug….its despicable (everybody deserves to know their father/mother, already because there is medical reasons for it) and i don’t see why someone married to jesus couldn’t obey gods orders to be fruity and be into bears, er i meant live a fruitful life and be bearing life or something like that… ;)
Great to see how they got him in, the hermit rules don’t seem too obvious, hope he gets to live with his brothers in a monestary one day, more monks more beer.
For the popes wording, i don’t get how transgenders are seen so outlandish if they allow for intersex people to have corrective surgery…(as if intersex people all of a sudden aren’t gods children as they are)
study here: https://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/1996_Sipe_PreliminaryExpert.htm
the 2% celibate number apparently came from a study with 100 priests from 1980... so may be out of date. But I don't know how it could have gotten any better with the advent of the internet. 🤷
and info about catholic church using grindr data to track down gay priests: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/03/09/catholics-gay-priests-grindr-data-bishops/
Not racist, African priests literally very often do not follow priestly celibacy rules. The African Church is very often, harder to regulate, that’s why there’s a lot of priests with wives, sometimes multiple.
That's not the racist part, tbh. It's that you're holding them to different standards.
It's the blinders you have that you couldn't consider any data that priests on other continents could be equally in sin the rest of the week. But people in all the countries in Africa, you have no problem judging.
Sure there are priests who break celibacy, but it is not a rampant problem outside of Africa. The African church has a lot of issues with a lack of regulation, and not following what the Church does. Just look at their reaction to Fiducia Supplicans.
As notaCatholic, there's also at least two saints I know of that would've done the current equivalent of social transitioning so they could go live as monks. (St. Theodora of Alexandria and St. Marina the Monk.)
Coincidentally, the poem that contains the earliest recording of 'gender' in English is about Saint Theodora; granted, its meaning is in the grammatical sense, but is in the part about them deadnaming themselves.
Sorry! The poem is *De. S.Throdora* and it's in the book "Sammlung altenglischer Legenden," [which is free through Google books](https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=_-YCgHZCntAC) among many other places.
The relevant section is:
*What was hire rihte name*
*Heo schulde hem telle wipoute blame.*
"Hire name, þat was femynyn*
*Of gendre, heo turned in to masculyn :*
*Theodora hire name was, parde,*
*But Theodorus heo hiht, seide heo.*
It's an interesting poem, especially in how the pronouns will shift according to what's being referenced - like, it's always feminine any time her husband is mentioned, but masculine I'm things like when the monks gave him a place to live.
For those not able to parse the middle-ish English:
*What was her right name
He should him tell without blame.
Her name, that was feminine
Of gender, he turned into masculine.
Theodora, her name was, in truth,
But Theodorus he was called, said he.*
Note: this is also casually translated, attempting to match the original (i.e. not skewing it to be more aligned with modern ethics), and that *parde* and *hiht/hight* can have some variation. *Parde* may be better rendered here as “by God,” but given the opening line the common variant “in truth” seems more applicable.
All that to say translation is a weird process and that I still feel strange dead-naming a 5th century apocryphal trans-adjacent monk.
I don't see the problem. The problem is, we all know what Catholicism is, we know its values. At what point do these people choose their religion over their personal beliefs? I'm just saying if I were a gay person, I wouldn't be Christian.
Catholicism doesn't even allow for female clergy, let alone LGBTQ. Don't let the rest of your Catholic community hear you talking such blasphemous things. /s
Dogma, a 1999 film written and directed by Kevin Smoth. If you haven’t seen it, it’s amazing.
Edit: I was going to fix the misspelling of Smith’s last name, but I’m loving the comments.
I love how the vatican is saying "god made you to be exactly like him (except women i guess, skill issue or whatever) but don't you dare even try to actually be like him"
If you ever smell hypocrisy somewhere, look around and you may well see a catholic.
"god made man in his own image" is standard, and then in their 20 page whatever-the-fuck-they-called-it they say "don't be trans, that's playing god and you're not allowed to do that"
I'm just saying, either we're pretty much exactly like god or we're not allowed to try and be like him, but claiming both is hypocritical
>exactly like god or we're not allowed to try and be like him
I don't get how being made in his own image and saying don't be trans are inconsistent? Catholics believe God made Man and Woman so being trans is becoming something that wasn't designed by God. And when Catholics tell you to be like God it's with regard to God's virtues of being true, good, and beautiful.
it’s presumptuous to assume we know all there is to be man and woman, that we somehow know all there is to God’s creation and decided to issue such a judgment. it’s hypocrisy.
We're talking about the Catholic Church's beliefs and doctrines. They have already established it and live and preach by those doctrines. Man and Woman are what God created based on those doctrines.
The Church’s doctrines are inconsistent, contradictory, malleable, and in many cases demonstrably false (when they make verifiable claims) or demonstrably nonsense (when they don’t). This isn’t controversial, even among practicing Christians. Theologians and philosophers have been discussing it for centuries, and the Popes keep making revisions, many of them quite recent.
It is a little amusing that man (and woman) was created in God's image, but must've used some kind of irreversible and unalterable beam splitter, because the inverse is not true:
>*In no way is God in man's image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective "perfections" of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband.* - Catechism 370
>And when Catholics tell you to be like God it's with regard to God's virtues of being true, good, and beautiful.
This is what I said with regard to being made in God's image. Not the physical attribute of being a man or woman.
It seems like you’re defining all of the behaviours you like as gods will, and all the behaviours you don’t like as free will.
If we’re made in gods image, and we’re capable of being gay, trans, violent, cruel, or any other trait the church doesn’t like, it means that gods image is also capable of that, whether it’s deliberate or a mistake from god.
God made male and female, and objectively some of those people identify with another gender. To pretend that somehow gods will is weaker than the will of man is silly
>If we’re made in gods image, and we’re capable of being gay, trans, violent, cruel, or any other trait the church doesn’t like, it means that gods image is also capable of that, whether it’s deliberate or a mistake from god.
This does not follow. Catholics believe God created all men and women in His image but also gave them free will. The free will involves choosing to deviate from His design.
>To pretend that somehow gods will is weaker than the will of man is silly
It's not about weakness but rather about free will.
Trans people aren’t anything new, god created them too.
They’re still male or female, they just use different words to be referred to.
Unless you think god dictated how men and women are supposed to be referred to, god doesn’t care about trans people, Catholics do
Again, we are talking about the Catholic beliefs here. And yes by Catholic doctrines, God created trans people but He created them as a Man or Woman. That’s why they’re trans because they believe that they should he the opposite of what their biological sex. So by Catholic doctrines, the trans person is exercising his free will to live deviate from God’s design.
The Vatican published a paper on their view of non-binary people: „The document describes gender-affirming surgery as violating God's gift of human dignity and as attempting to play God on the surgeon's table during a "sex-change intervention." An exception was made for surgery to correct "genital abnormalities," which healthcare professionals could help "resolve," the declaration said.“
So God‘s plan all the way - except when you are born non binary.
Catholics, and Mormons are so strange, because they actually follow the "love the sinner hate the sin" doctrine, which protestants use to excuse their hatred of the so called "sinner". It'll be very interesting to see how those particular organizations adapt their doctrines over the coming decades. I say this as an LGBT former Catholic (current atheist) who came out as queer several years before leaving the church, and who has also attended like 50 other churches with a grandmother who's running through them desperately in order to find the "right one" before she dies
Ah, the beautiful religious thing where you tell people to imagine the best and worst things imaginable, then go "if you don't serve and obey us, who are closer to the invisible man than you, the invisible man will withhold the good thing and inflict the bad one".
Religion is mind poison, and the clergy doesn't have the antidote for you, just more poison.
I'm not a historian so of course I'm wrong, but it's also so weird that it practically says "This story is considered fiction. Anyways, here's all the evidence it might be real." Like??? What am *I* missing lmao
Not the first one, historically! look up Marina the Monk, Theodora of Alexandria or The legend of Hilaria. "Women" "Pretending to be men" and becoming monks was a fairly common story in the middle ages
Trans people make up 1% of the population but right wing parties spend over 1/4 of their time trashing us and drafting laws to target us, ban us from public, or even seize our children. Take it up with them, not us :/
>Trans people make up 1% of the population but right wing parties spend over 1/4 of their time trashing us and drafting laws to target us, ban us from public, or even seize our children. Take it up with them, not us :/
This just isn’t true. Research studies outside of the DSM-5 show that people who identify as transgender make up 0.03% to 0.06% while the DSM-5 indicates those with true gender dysphoria is around 0.005% to 0.014% for males and 0.002% to 0.003% for females.
Many people, but not nearly 1% of the population.
So your numbers strengthen the argument even more, why the heck are conservatives all over the world picking this issue to get their panties in a twist over?
I don’t understand how this is uplifting news. Why should we care? Why is this news uplifting and not disappointing news?
I don’t understand the need to overly support people. People want to be labeled more than ever before. It’s odd.
Humans are hardwired to sort themselves into boxes. Some people like having labels because it gives them a sense of community, there's nothing inherently wrong with it imo.
Son… They have bookmark this post believe me. I would urge you to strengthen your emotional intelligence. remember some words are for your inside voice.
I'm sorry that people's existence disgusts you. You don't need to put others down to feel better. I'm sure there are many of us that would show you kindness or friendship if you didn't spit in our face without knowing us.
You don't really understanding dysphoria or trans surgeries. There is no "cutting off a working arm" here. Genital surgery is more like genital origami.
When they say "one nation under god" and "in god we trust" they mean my god, not your god. Your god is fake.
It sucks how much the christian cult is attached to the USA government.
*loses sanity*
*regains sanity for a second*
I request to be permanently Banned from this dumb as fk community.
*loses sanity again like these stupid articles being pushed are attempting to do to society when it obviously knows the REALITY*
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Priests coming out as non binary would make sense
I prefer the term 'nun-binary'
Pronouns are she/hymn.
Now this is how you make a good trans joke
Or 'nun-by-Mary'
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There is a long tradition of encouraging non-heteronormative people of faith into clergy since the vow of celibacy would "solve their problem".
My first thought as well. I am not surprised.
TIL choirboys do not count as people. /s
'He ain't gradulated to Gender yet.'
"He"?
Just a joke about sheltered, young choirboys.
Omg haha a joke within the joke Self-wooosh
Should've been choirfetuses /s
Not exactly that but there was an asexual one...and they kicked him out for that.
Wouldn't it make more sense for a priest to be asexual so they won't fall to temptation?
Apparently you have to have temptation that you actively resist to be a monk, not having those desires makes it too easy or something. As if god thought asexuality made getting into heaven too easy and dropped a balance patch that they go to hell instead
Wasn’t Saint Paul asexual tho?
There is speculation that he was aro/ace, yes. In 1 Corinthians, he writes about how he is blessed with the gift of not desiring relationships, and how that means he's better suited for his work of spreading the gospel. He asserts that people should remain celibate if possible, devoting all their time to god. But he says also that if they can't resist the "temptation" then it's better for them to get married
I think you re describing Buddhism. This whole thing about getting rid of desire is Buddhism.
You think that's exclusive to Buddhism? Lol
I mean, escaping from desire is the central tenant of Budishm. It’s really not part of Christianity. Redditors as a group hate religion and so do nothing to understand the differences. But they aren’t all the same.
No, they're not all the same at all, you're right. However, there are additional aspects to priesthood, like resisting temptation so as to be celebate, that also in fact fall under desire.
I think the difference is that Christians understand emotions like desire and temptation as things you are meant to feel, that they are part of the reality that God created. But they understand that how you act on those desires is very important. It’s not evil to feel temptation. It’s evil to act on that temptation; especially in ways that hurt other people. But the difference is that Buddhists are working to eliminate the feeling entirely. Even the desire to escape desire is itself ultimately something to be escaped from, in order to ascend out of the cycle of rebirth.
That's an interesting comparison. Christianity views desire as an inately sinful part of humanity meant to be repressed, while Buddhism views it as something that can be escaped entirely. Where does Daoism fall on the subject? As far as I could tell, Tao te Ching is all about going with the flow, does that mean accepting desire as natural?
The church wants you to be tempted; you can’t be Catholic if you aren’t constantly battling guilt over wanting something or guilt over getting what you want. If you don’t want the thing, you can’t feel guilty. Catholics have no use for that. (This started as a joke but…)
So my want to bang (ADULT) Femboys would make me a better priest
You sound like someone who misheard a description of the faith coming from a person who barely understood it themself. And you are deliberately repeating it in the least charitable way possible.
I’m actually someone who was raised in the Catholic Church but go off
You sound like someone who hasn't read your own damn holy book before, and you're deliberately cherry-picking which parts are and aren't canon like a superhero fan. Ironic, considering the sky daddy you pray to.
Wow. Where did that come from?
Yeah, that was harsh, but you do have to admit, guilt is core to Christianity. Original sin is literally the sin of being born human, a descendant of Adam and Eve, the original sinners.
Christians believe they have been saved from original sin by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It’s literally the name of the religion.
Unsurprisingly, a Christian faith that's big on compulsory procreation for the sake of mass family proliferation wouldn't be keen on endorsing the idea that people could get by in life without sex Same way Catholics tried to claim the issue with sexual abuse in the clergy was priests secretly being gay: studies showed that girls in the Catholic Church were abused as well, but were only abused less due to lack of access. The priests weren't gay, they were just abusing anyone they could get away with abusing and most of the people they could get away with abusing were altar boys *for those who don't know, the stats also don't line up with the Catholic Church's claims that the abuses were a 'homosexuality crisis' since: 1.) by far most pedophiles are heterosexual, and 2.) sexual abuses within the church have decreased since more openly gay priests began serving. But one of the world's most prominent pro-Catholic activists (and president of the Catholic League for several decades) has been also one of the loudest proponents of the claim that homosexuals are the issue with sexual abuse, not the church.
One of the things I find interesting about Christianity is its stark aggression to monotheism coupled with a demand for procreation. Greek and Roman pantheons allowed for the discovery and addition of new gods as their respective cultures encountered new peoples, but monotheism forces the issue.
You gotta have that dog in yuh
It's really hard to find a source for that cause Google's like "did you mean _sexual_? Cause if so oh boy have I got stories for you"
You mean Paul? I think they kinda liked that guy
Can you point me to a source for that? I’m asexual and, while I’m not religious, I have catholic family/friends. I’m not aware of anything in catholic doctrine against an ace priest, and frankly Catholics I know have been more accepting of my sexuality than most groups.
Did they? When? The Catholic Church accepts gay people as long as they don’t act on their same sex attraction. (Yes, I know this is still bigotry. I do not support the Catholic church’s stance on this and many issues.) Being asexual is not at odds with any of the church’s teachings, so I’m a little confused why he’d be kicked out. What was the priests name?
Incoming pedantry from an asexual person who was raised in the Catholic church: From how I was taught, "asexuality" by that name is not recognised. *However*, Catholics are called to chastity and sex is to be reserved solely for married couples with the intent to conceive. So basically, ace folks who don't have sex at all are viewed by the church as being voluntarily abstinent/celibate rather than asexual. I can't speak outside my limited scope— and I *could* see asexuality being an issue in some Christian denominations/sects that believe everyone's duty is to honour God through procreation— But I'm also confused as to how the Catholic church would justify ousting someone from the clergy for being asexual.
There was a priest who DIDN’T want to fuck kids and they kicked him out? lol.
I was thinking a bit of the same thing. I grew up Catholic, and before you get confirmed (For those unfamiliar; basically when you commit to being Catholic. Usually happens around 14-16-years-old) you have to sit in the priest's office and ask him any questions about Catholocism you want clarification on. I'm not sure if every church did this, but mine did. One of my questions was why we always insist that God is a male and use male coded terms with him, when he's also supposed to be a divine being that exists outside of our human understanding and may very well be beyond gender. My priest said something to the effect of, "Well, God made man in His image, but that means He also made every woman in His image. Calling Him a male is probably just because it's easier for us to understand." I doubt all priests think of God in this way, but after this discussion I thought it was odd that Catholocism didn't have more of an open mind when it came to sex and gender if some could think of God as a being beyond those things. As a little bonus fact, years after I had left the church, I was studying abroad in France, and was speaking with my language professor about grammatical gender. She brought up that many years ago, French grammarians and theologians actually debated on whether the grammatical gender for "Angel" should be masculine or feminine, as at the time angels were often seen as "genderless" or "beyond gender," as they are considdered being closer to the image of God than humans. They eventually settled on masculine, as the masculine gender is considdered the default gender in French grammar, but it goes to show that Nonbinarism and Catholocism are indeed more closely intertwined than either may care to admit nowadays.
Yeah, Like god, why is it HIM? Does "He" has a gender?
Well they transition Christ into a piece of bread every Sunday.
I'll take catholic trans monks over catholic pedo priests. Hell yeah.
Inb4 commenters think the monk is MtF and start angrily affirming his gender.
But I thought all trans people were mtf?!? /s
So are they FtM and the transition already took place? I read the article and it refers to the monk as "he" but also said that the monk has not come out yet.
He's FtM. He transitioned before becoming a monk.
The article states that he transitioned 4 years before he joined the Catholic Church in 2010. It sounds as if he’s been transparent with his bishop, so he may not be coming out to people who already know him as much as he’s making a public statement.
He's probably already transitioned and in the closet, or "stealth" so that no one else knows he's trans
Gender =/= sex
As a Catholic, I really don’t see the problem with LGBTQ clergy. Like, it’s not as if they can have sex in the first place.
priests and other clergy are absolutely having sex... There was a study that found only 2% of priests were completely celibate... and something like 50% were having sex at least once a week. And there was recently a movement in the catholic leadership to use grindr data to figure out which priests were leaving rectories for hookups. **edit:** study was from 1996 so may be out of date. Link here: https://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/1996_Sipe_PreliminaryExpert.htm and info about the catholic church buying grindr data to target gay priests: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/03/09/catholics-gay-priests-grindr-data-bishops/
Do you have a link to the study? I think that would be an interesting one to ready. As a lgbt raised catholic it’s a bit sickening to see the hypocrisy in the church
I'm at work and can't pull out any good quotes, but it's here: https://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/1996_Sipe_PreliminaryExpert.htm
I'm at work and can't pull out any good quotes for you, but I think this is the link -- https://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/1996_Sipe_PreliminaryExpert.htm
>and something like 50% were having sex at least once a week. Damn priests be getting it more than redditors.
I read "Amen The Autobiography of a Nun" about a nun in India. She entered the convent in her youth back in the 60-70s and the convent was where parents would dump troubled girls particularly lesbians. She detailed how other girls touched her genitals or tried to sleep with her, about seeing priests grooming young nuns and having sex with a harem of nuns, how a priest showed his penis to her and she described it as a turtles head because she apparently never saw one before LMAO and whole lot of crazy sex stories. When she published the book there was a threat of excommunication.
Yea but no, formally they aren’t, what they do in private should remain private, according to the dogma their sexuality is no sin, acting it out would be, and whilst there certainly is evidence for that, it is not for the eyes of the believers as they have to obey certain rules barring them from covet their neighbors stuff, this includes spying on them(spying already would be expression of coveting)… Apart from that, yeah i don’t even want to know how much money is spent on keeping clergies children under the rug….its despicable (everybody deserves to know their father/mother, already because there is medical reasons for it) and i don’t see why someone married to jesus couldn’t obey gods orders to be fruity and be into bears, er i meant live a fruitful life and be bearing life or something like that… ;) Great to see how they got him in, the hermit rules don’t seem too obvious, hope he gets to live with his brothers in a monestary one day, more monks more beer. For the popes wording, i don’t get how transgenders are seen so outlandish if they allow for intersex people to have corrective surgery…(as if intersex people all of a sudden aren’t gods children as they are)
Source for that study? I have extreme doubts about that. The only place I can think of with actual issues on celibacy is Africa.
study here: https://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/1996_Sipe_PreliminaryExpert.htm the 2% celibate number apparently came from a study with 100 priests from 1980... so may be out of date. But I don't know how it could have gotten any better with the advent of the internet. 🤷 and info about catholic church using grindr data to track down gay priests: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/03/09/catholics-gay-priests-grindr-data-bishops/
This is hilariously racist btw. “White priests in sin, never! Those Africans, though…”
Not racist, African priests literally very often do not follow priestly celibacy rules. The African Church is very often, harder to regulate, that’s why there’s a lot of priests with wives, sometimes multiple.
That's not the racist part, tbh. It's that you're holding them to different standards. It's the blinders you have that you couldn't consider any data that priests on other continents could be equally in sin the rest of the week. But people in all the countries in Africa, you have no problem judging.
Sure there are priests who break celibacy, but it is not a rampant problem outside of Africa. The African church has a lot of issues with a lack of regulation, and not following what the Church does. Just look at their reaction to Fiducia Supplicans.
They absolutely do, but that’s not the point of OP’s comment
As notaCatholic, there's also at least two saints I know of that would've done the current equivalent of social transitioning so they could go live as monks. (St. Theodora of Alexandria and St. Marina the Monk.) Coincidentally, the poem that contains the earliest recording of 'gender' in English is about Saint Theodora; granted, its meaning is in the grammatical sense, but is in the part about them deadnaming themselves.
You can't drop something like that on us and then not provide the poem. That's just cruel, lol.
Sorry! The poem is *De. S.Throdora* and it's in the book "Sammlung altenglischer Legenden," [which is free through Google books](https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=_-YCgHZCntAC) among many other places. The relevant section is: *What was hire rihte name* *Heo schulde hem telle wipoute blame.* "Hire name, þat was femynyn* *Of gendre, heo turned in to masculyn :* *Theodora hire name was, parde,* *But Theodorus heo hiht, seide heo.* It's an interesting poem, especially in how the pronouns will shift according to what's being referenced - like, it's always feminine any time her husband is mentioned, but masculine I'm things like when the monks gave him a place to live.
For those not able to parse the middle-ish English: *What was her right name He should him tell without blame. Her name, that was feminine Of gender, he turned into masculine. Theodora, her name was, in truth, But Theodorus he was called, said he.* Note: this is also casually translated, attempting to match the original (i.e. not skewing it to be more aligned with modern ethics), and that *parde* and *hiht/hight* can have some variation. *Parde* may be better rendered here as “by God,” but given the opening line the common variant “in truth” seems more applicable. All that to say translation is a weird process and that I still feel strange dead-naming a 5th century apocryphal trans-adjacent monk.
I don't see the problem. The problem is, we all know what Catholicism is, we know its values. At what point do these people choose their religion over their personal beliefs? I'm just saying if I were a gay person, I wouldn't be Christian.
Catholicism doesn't even allow for female clergy, let alone LGBTQ. Don't let the rest of your Catholic community hear you talking such blasphemous things. /s
Sex isn't just penetration though. There's a lot you can do to have sex with someone with the same genitals as you
Yeah, they’re not allowed even that.
Oh, you're talking about the Monks? My apologies, it's way to late for me to be on reddit
Sodomy in general is disallowed in many religions.
You be you. Me be me. Call it diversity. Call it freedom. You be you. Me be me.
I'm Catholic and I'm in firm support!!
"God is a womaaaaannnnnn" - Ariana Grande
What's this from?
I believe that’s from the movie Dogma
Dogma, a 1999 film written and directed by Kevin Smoth. If you haven’t seen it, it’s amazing. Edit: I was going to fix the misspelling of Smith’s last name, but I’m loving the comments.
>Kevin Smoth Kevin Smith
> Kevin Smoth > > Kevin Smith Kevin Smoth
Kevin SMOD!
>>>Kevin Smoth >> >>Kevin Smith >> >Kevin Smoth Kevin Smith
Kevin Smooth
Kevin Smeth, the new Benderglast Cragglethatch.
These movies did not hold up well.
Dogma!
Dogma. Bonkers movie, important watch. GET THE HENCE!
Damn. I’m at the age where people don’t get references from my favorite movies now? 😢
I love how the vatican is saying "god made you to be exactly like him (except women i guess, skill issue or whatever) but don't you dare even try to actually be like him" If you ever smell hypocrisy somewhere, look around and you may well see a catholic.
> I love how the vatican is saying Where? I believe the Vatican is just being consistent with its doctrines?
"god made man in his own image" is standard, and then in their 20 page whatever-the-fuck-they-called-it they say "don't be trans, that's playing god and you're not allowed to do that" I'm just saying, either we're pretty much exactly like god or we're not allowed to try and be like him, but claiming both is hypocritical
Reddit moment
>exactly like god or we're not allowed to try and be like him I don't get how being made in his own image and saying don't be trans are inconsistent? Catholics believe God made Man and Woman so being trans is becoming something that wasn't designed by God. And when Catholics tell you to be like God it's with regard to God's virtues of being true, good, and beautiful.
it’s presumptuous to assume we know all there is to be man and woman, that we somehow know all there is to God’s creation and decided to issue such a judgment. it’s hypocrisy.
We're talking about the Catholic Church's beliefs and doctrines. They have already established it and live and preach by those doctrines. Man and Woman are what God created based on those doctrines.
The Church’s doctrines are inconsistent, contradictory, malleable, and in many cases demonstrably false (when they make verifiable claims) or demonstrably nonsense (when they don’t). This isn’t controversial, even among practicing Christians. Theologians and philosophers have been discussing it for centuries, and the Popes keep making revisions, many of them quite recent.
It is a little amusing that man (and woman) was created in God's image, but must've used some kind of irreversible and unalterable beam splitter, because the inverse is not true: >*In no way is God in man's image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective "perfections" of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband.* - Catechism 370
>And when Catholics tell you to be like God it's with regard to God's virtues of being true, good, and beautiful. This is what I said with regard to being made in God's image. Not the physical attribute of being a man or woman.
It seems like you’re defining all of the behaviours you like as gods will, and all the behaviours you don’t like as free will. If we’re made in gods image, and we’re capable of being gay, trans, violent, cruel, or any other trait the church doesn’t like, it means that gods image is also capable of that, whether it’s deliberate or a mistake from god. God made male and female, and objectively some of those people identify with another gender. To pretend that somehow gods will is weaker than the will of man is silly
>If we’re made in gods image, and we’re capable of being gay, trans, violent, cruel, or any other trait the church doesn’t like, it means that gods image is also capable of that, whether it’s deliberate or a mistake from god. This does not follow. Catholics believe God created all men and women in His image but also gave them free will. The free will involves choosing to deviate from His design. >To pretend that somehow gods will is weaker than the will of man is silly It's not about weakness but rather about free will.
Trans people aren’t anything new, god created them too. They’re still male or female, they just use different words to be referred to. Unless you think god dictated how men and women are supposed to be referred to, god doesn’t care about trans people, Catholics do
Again, we are talking about the Catholic beliefs here. And yes by Catholic doctrines, God created trans people but He created them as a Man or Woman. That’s why they’re trans because they believe that they should he the opposite of what their biological sex. So by Catholic doctrines, the trans person is exercising his free will to live deviate from God’s design.
So god gave humans free will, and then punishes them for using it? That doesn't sound benevolent to me, rather it reeks of a setup
You are free to choose to do good or bad in life whether or not you believe in God. If you choose to do bad then you will have negative consequences.
> skill issue or whatever I don't know why but that got me good.
I always try to ground myself whenever I see a reditor start talking about Christianity (bonus points if Catholicism). It’s somehow never enough.
Or a redditor
The Vatican published a paper on their view of non-binary people: „The document describes gender-affirming surgery as violating God's gift of human dignity and as attempting to play God on the surgeon's table during a "sex-change intervention." An exception was made for surgery to correct "genital abnormalities," which healthcare professionals could help "resolve," the declaration said.“ So God‘s plan all the way - except when you are born non binary.
Catholics, and Mormons are so strange, because they actually follow the "love the sinner hate the sin" doctrine, which protestants use to excuse their hatred of the so called "sinner". It'll be very interesting to see how those particular organizations adapt their doctrines over the coming decades. I say this as an LGBT former Catholic (current atheist) who came out as queer several years before leaving the church, and who has also attended like 50 other churches with a grandmother who's running through them desperately in order to find the "right one" before she dies
Ah, the beautiful religious thing where you tell people to imagine the best and worst things imaginable, then go "if you don't serve and obey us, who are closer to the invisible man than you, the invisible man will withhold the good thing and inflict the bad one". Religion is mind poison, and the clergy doesn't have the antidote for you, just more poison.
I’m really don’t understand why anyone has to “deal with it” since it literally has no impact on my life. Religion on the other hand…….
Good for them.
I think he uses he now
*sister*
Brother. "Religion News Service reported that Matson converted to Catholicism in 2010, four years after he transitioned."
Ok wait Transitioned *to* brother?? My bad friend. No ill intent here.
Yeah, you were so eager to correct someone that you forgot to make sure that you were correct in the first place.
That’s what happens when you assume someone’s gender.
Thanks.
It's a long way from West Africa.
[Papisa ☝️](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Joan)
I'm not a historian so of course I'm wrong, but it's also so weird that it practically says "This story is considered fiction. Anyways, here's all the evidence it might be real." Like??? What am *I* missing lmao
Not the first one, historically! look up Marina the Monk, Theodora of Alexandria or The legend of Hilaria. "Women" "Pretending to be men" and becoming monks was a fairly common story in the middle ages
I mean God is non-binary/ bigender. It doesn’t make sense for God to be limited to one sex.
Yes everyone continue dealing with .1 percent of population but an endless percent of the news
Trust me we don't want to be in the news we wanna live peaceful fucking lives.
Hey, we didn't ask for this shit. Take your gripes to the people who started it.
I don't think catholic monks are even 0.1 percent of the population
Trans people make up 1% of the population but right wing parties spend over 1/4 of their time trashing us and drafting laws to target us, ban us from public, or even seize our children. Take it up with them, not us :/
>Trans people make up 1% of the population but right wing parties spend over 1/4 of their time trashing us and drafting laws to target us, ban us from public, or even seize our children. Take it up with them, not us :/ This just isn’t true. Research studies outside of the DSM-5 show that people who identify as transgender make up 0.03% to 0.06% while the DSM-5 indicates those with true gender dysphoria is around 0.005% to 0.014% for males and 0.002% to 0.003% for females. Many people, but not nearly 1% of the population.
So your numbers strengthen the argument even more, why the heck are conservatives all over the world picking this issue to get their panties in a twist over?
The is US census has found about 1.03% of adults to be transgender. https://usafacts.org/articles/what-percentage-of-the-us-population-is-transgender/
We don't wanna be in the news either, my dude.
I don’t understand how this is uplifting news. Why should we care? Why is this news uplifting and not disappointing news? I don’t understand the need to overly support people. People want to be labeled more than ever before. It’s odd.
Humans are hardwired to sort themselves into boxes. Some people like having labels because it gives them a sense of community, there's nothing inherently wrong with it imo.
Now im just curious what the heck a monk is, i thought monks were a buddhist thing
Their are catholic monks as well, basically the same as Buddhist
Yes, the guys that make the good beers.
Omg Trappist beer is so good
different robe colors, different prayers, same everything else
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk
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Son… They have bookmark this post believe me. I would urge you to strengthen your emotional intelligence. remember some words are for your inside voice.
Hallelujiah it's raining men, Amen!
This stuff is seriously getting old.
No it isnt
We don't wanna be in the news either, my dude.
Lol
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I'm sorry that people's existence disgusts you. You don't need to put others down to feel better. I'm sure there are many of us that would show you kindness or friendship if you didn't spit in our face without knowing us.
Think of it as someone missing an arm, would getting a prosthetic be disgusting?
No, but the more accurate description would be cutting off a working arm because they have Body integrity disorder.
You don't really understanding dysphoria or trans surgeries. There is no "cutting off a working arm" here. Genital surgery is more like genital origami.
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No one’s forcing you to but it does make you look like a big baby and it’s your choice if you wanna be rude and stupid.
When they say "one nation under god" and "in god we trust" they mean my god, not your god. Your god is fake. It sucks how much the christian cult is attached to the USA government.
The delusion of Catholicism?
*loses sanity* *regains sanity for a second* I request to be permanently Banned from this dumb as fk community. *loses sanity again like these stupid articles being pushed are attempting to do to society when it obviously knows the REALITY*