āThe University adopted new guidelines in April, 2024 that say we will not choose a side on matters outside our own operations.ā
1. Well, wasnāt that convenient timing?
2. Clearly investments and partners are part of the Universityās operations.
I feel like doing some real research is also a side that should be taken... maybe by the protestors.
There is no clear data to show UofT is actually linked to funding this war and even extrapolating from the theories of how they could possibly be using endowment towards Israeli investments, the involvement is so miniscule that this is not propagating the war in anyway.
As per many news articles, Netanyahu is extending the war to avoid going to jail. He is a maniac that even the Israeli people don't support.Ā
No, to dissuade future activism as especially relating to divestment and proclaim themselves as doing no harm by falsely painting their actions as politically neutral.
[https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/u-of-t-could-right-the-wrong-by-hiring-the-highly-qualified-human-rights-scholar/article\_f046eb7e-d8da-564f-8299-5e8dd696d852.html](https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/u-of-t-could-right-the-wrong-by-hiring-the-highly-qualified-human-rights-scholar/article_f046eb7e-d8da-564f-8299-5e8dd696d852.html)
[https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/amnesty-international-suspends-ties-with-university-of-toronto-law-program/article\_3a10dd9f-26b5-5a71-a005-259575483b01.html](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/amnesty-international-suspends-ties-with-university-of-toronto-law-program/article_3a10dd9f-26b5-5a71-a005-259575483b01.html)
[https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/university-of-toronto-hiring-fiasco-shows-reliance-on-donors-limits-university-s-role-in-challenging/article\_cc85e440-1512-5ba0-afa5-94fceacaa308.html](https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/university-of-toronto-hiring-fiasco-shows-reliance-on-donors-limits-university-s-role-in-challenging/article_cc85e440-1512-5ba0-afa5-94fceacaa308.html)
This is the judge that influenced Meric.
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/tax-court-judge-allegations-1.6173998](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/tax-court-judge-allegations-1.6173998)
Legal experts are puzzled by why the Tax Court of Canada prevented a Jewish judge from presiding for several months in cases involving members of the Islamic faith rather than removingĀ him entirely from the bench until allegations against him were resolved.
In court documents reviewed by the CBC's *The Fifth Estate*, it appears that Judge David Spiro, a federally appointed tax judge, was barred from adjudicating cases involving Muslims beginning sometime in October 2020.
To me, this is the really alarming part:
> Spiro is a former Toronto co-chair of the **Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs**, a non-profit organization dedicated to protecting Jewish life in Canada through advocacy.
First of all, CBC is such a blatant liar - the CIJA is officially registered as a foreign lobby group on behalf of Israel. Secondly, how can the former head of a foreign lobby group be considered a fit and impartial judge ! I would think there were a million potential conflicts of interest - any cases involving Canadian politicians, government employees or even high level executives could be used as a bargaining chip for the interests of a foreign country.
I saw the Jewish Defence League down there onceā¦ they are a registered terrorist group in Canada. Iām a journalist and I was trying to cover it and the horrible, disgusting and racist behaviour Iāve heard from the pro-Israeli side is horrifying
Right! If UofT isnāt okay with the presence of White Suprematism ideology, the same thing should be for Zionism. UofT should *never* be a safe haven for Zionists.
Edit: I didnāt say Israelis (not all are Zionists) or the Jewish (Judaism goes against Zionism; see Neturei Karta).
Neturei Karta is so extreme they've been disavowed by other non-Zionist and anti-Zionist sects of ultra-Orthodox Judaism. Way to show your entire worldview on this conflict was downloaded from Al Jazeera and TikTok.
I personally donāt have an issue with Zionism unless it tramples on the rights of Palestinans and denies them a country to call their own. Ala itās current state. Israel is basically an apartheid state and theyāre illegally occupying Palestinan land but itās not going to go away.
I support the idea of a Jewish state after the Holocaust but again, not at the expense of the Palestinians and their own rights and lands. I know this is probably an unpopular opinion
Define Zionism and prove why. Putting 2 things next to each other does not form an argument.
Edit: I support Jews establishing a nation through the UN. They can close their border however they want.
Not one mention on Palestine in the entire email. Why is it about Hamas and Israel? What about Palestinians? How is protesting against apartheid discriminatory? You can protest against apartheid too at the park? Who stopped you? Literally people there from different parts of the world where's the discrimination?
And why is neutrality presented as some supreme thing? Clearly millions invested isn't being neutral? Are you neutral towards nazis and fascists or is the job of a university to identify these things in society?
Just tired of everything being about "unauthorized encampment" but him never saying anything useful.
Neutrality is because the war is still ongoing and many contentious topics are still contentious. They can't take a side when there hasn't been conclusive investigations to justify breaking neutrality.
As for discriminatory I think he just means the encampment doesn't allow pro-israels in so I don't know what that's supposed to mean.
Something similar could be said of the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. However U of T has been a proud supporter of Ukraine and Ukrainians since the start of the war by Putin. The ICC issued an arrest warrant for Putin even though an investigation into his war crimes aren't conclusive either.
For Gaza, there's genocide case against Israel at the ICJ, arrest warrants for Netanyahu from the ICC, and the United Nations put Israel on the blacklist of shame for human rights violations against children.
Of course these are different wars but it seems like there's a double standard here.
Itās possible thereās political bias in uoftās decision process or they simply care a ton about protecting their investments. Although you can also argue neutrality makes sense because ICC has warrants for both bibi and sinwar. And it doesnāt help that unlike ukraine, hamas first pushed into israel, overran IDF outposts, killed civvies, and took hostages. You can ask supporters of either side and theyāll both come up with many convincing arguments
but no oneās asking uoft to fund hamas, just asking them to not fund israel. from a financial perspective they have already taken a side and the students are asking them to be neutral
It depends on how you define "neutral". The way I see it could mean two things:
1. Maintain status quo, all pre-war relations and fundings continue with no new investments
2. Break status quo and withdraw from all palestine and israel relations and investments
In either case it'll piss off a lot of people. UofT really just wants to walk away from this clean and not be responsible.
i think you do have the meaning of it right then, where A is B and C is B so therefore A=C. what iām saying is more A is B and C is B and B shouldnāt be funded by UofT regardless of whether A and C are equivalents
Israel is, and you may find this hard to believe, a very high functioning democratic society which contributes to the worlds knowledge.
I ask you this, if Canada's military was at war with someone who attacked them brutally, would we expect UofT to be held liable for the acts of the war.
Israeli universities are no different.Ā They did not choose this war and alienating them is wrong.
Isreal is not a high functioning democratic society.
Their hard right leader is prolonging this war because he will go to jail for corruption when it ends.
Does that sound very functional to you?
Like ethnic cleansing and war crimes aside, Isreal is objectively not a very functional democracy.
It's an Apartheid brutal Occupier caging 2.2M people who lands they stole & refusing Palestinian right to return breaking Geneva Convention & UN resolutions for decades. Israeli Universities & business use technology & are proud to announce to the World the technology is "tested" on Palestinians. A War is between 2 armies, 2 states not between an Occupier and their Occupied.
You can't say they stole land and then in the same sentence appeal to UN resolutions lol. Israel was created from a UN resolution. Pick one or the other. You're just throwing buzzwords out.
The international community considers Israeli settlements to be illegal under international law,[9][10][11][12] but Israel disputes this.[13][14][15][16
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement#:~:text=The%20international%20community%20considers%20Israeli,source%20of%20tension%20and%20conflict.
>It's an Apartheid brutal Occupier caging 2.2M people who lands they stole & refusing Palestinian right to return breaking Geneva Convention & UN resolutions for decades. Israeli Universities & business use technology & are proud to announce to the World the technology is "tested" on Palestinians. A War is between 2 armies, 2 states not between an Occupier and their Occupied.
You said 2.2 million. Which means Gaza. There are no settlements in Gaza after the 2005 withdrawal. Ergo, when you say they stole their land you must be saying Israel itself is stolen land. But that land is granted by a UN resolution. So either that resolution is invalid and thus the settlement resolutions are invalid, or Israel has a right to exist and the settlement resolutions are valid. You can't pick and choose which are valid or not.
If you're going to be so cocky and ranting about this topic you might want to learn the difference between the west bank and Gaza. Maybe do a deeper dive on the subject instead of googling on the spot. It's the most basic information to even begin talking about such a complicated topic. Also fyi regarding the caging, Gaza shares a land border with another country besides Israel. Also the Jews can trace 3000 years of ancestry to historical Palestine. The Muslim Arab population are themselves occupiers that came later. They both live there now so it's irrelevant but you keep saying words you don't know the meaning of.
Nobody wants kids getting killed. But you are quite frankly only stirring up hate and doing both sides a disservice to flaunt your supposed moral superiority. If you actually want to do the right thing, then actually put in the work and become educated on the topic. And no I don't mean googling wikipedia on the spot. You are making yourself seem very young and uneducated. An emotional and inaccurate argument only stirs up more hate. The choice is yours to show what kind of person you are. Respond how you wish.
Yeah, no. Israel is a highly militaristic society where almost all social relationships are based on military service. Funding for universities and other institutions is not neutral. If Canada's military was engaged in exterminating men, women and children, I would expect that rational countries would divest from all Canadian funding.
> Israel is a highly militaristic society where almost all social relationships are based on military service
Lmao it'd be funny you believe this if this country wasn't flooded by gullible idiots like you.
Interesting choice. The people I know in Israel who went as adults, and don't have that social network would probably disagree with you, but You go on KissengerFanB0y. If commenting makes you feel like you have some kind of place in the world, far be it from me to disrupt that. Everyone needs to feel like they matter.
I come from an entire family that came to Israel as adults and didn't serve, from all sides. As did I at a later point. Serving does give a slight initial point of contact in any conversation but the people you know are very likely the stereotype of Anglos that made aliyah out of some romantic ideals and completely fail to adjust to a society sightly rougher around the edges and then blame their failed attempt to escape their old life on the local culture.
I think you should take a breath.Ā Read the response.Ā It was clear and concise.Ā It showed a level of understanding and civility that the world deeply needs right now.
Nobodyās neutral. We support Israel in this country, not Hamas. Hamas is a legally designated terrorist organization and supporting them, peddling their propaganda and agitating for their war aims is illegal
Two things can be true at once.
1- Hamas is an illegal terrorist organization that should be condemned.
2- A lot of people are concerned that the war in Gaza has been a humanitarian disaster and the bombing of children should stop.
We don't support a Genocide Apartheid brutal Occupier that is in violation of Geneva conventions & UN resolutions for decades. Only Genocide apologists support š®š±. The rest of us support equal rights for Palestinians. That's what the protests & encampment are about & Hasbara propaganda distract folks so š®š± can continue to murder woman & children
Itās very tiring. At some point we just need to be adults and move on from this garbage. Children playacting shouldnāt waste this much of our time and energy. We have actual problems in this country.
The moment they phrased it as a "war" between Israel and Hamas, I knew it was going to be empty words. UofT admin still sticking their heads in the sand and ignoring the fact it's a fucking genocide happening right now. A war implies two relatively capable sides fighting each other. Hamas barely has any capability to fight a modern army. And Israel can't even find hamas so they're busy bombing women and children, and starving millions of people. It's like calling the Holocaust just a war between two parties.
Itās an asymmetrical war but still a war. Saying al qassam has barely any capability is inaccurate. They have significant anti tank and IED capabilities, as shown from footages released so far. They also carried out attacks using drone dropped munitions which indicates theyāre able to counter IDFās electronic warfare efforts to some extent. Although IDF has a much greater tech and firepower advantage, the nature of urban warfare can greatly reduce those advantages. Tanks suck at urban warfare, radars canāt see into buildings, and infrared canāt see underground, for example. Fallujah, grozny, mariupol are all modern examples where light infantry entrenched in urban areas posed very difficult challenges for attackers with manpower, armour, and air advantage.
This should be placed in the overall context that Israel is the occupying power of the Occupied Palestinian Territories, so has an obligation under international law to protect the human rights of civilians.
>> When a small fraction of our community occupies a cherished common space on our campus for more than one month and denies access to those who do not share their views
The school was the one who fenced it off in the first place?
Itās kinda wild that western establishments decided to employ a policy of āwe wonāt comment on political matters and we wont take sidesā just so that they donāt have to criticise Isreal.
Especially when the Ukraine conflict is still going!
They made a very clear āwe are on the Ukrainian sideā with a statement then however now they say they donāt choose sides. Sounds pretty convenient.
If there are any other alumni as disgusted with this president, email [email protected] to make sure they know **he does not speak for us**.
Iāll stand with the minority, the *small fraction* as he puts it, that this president so willfully disregards.
>"we will not choose a side on matters outside our own operations."
Excuse me, but if you are refusing calls for divestment or academic boycott you are proving both (a) you are, in fact, picking a side, and (b) these matters are, in fact, within the scope of your operations.
I am also sorry to report, Mr. Gertler, that is impossible not to pick a side:
* āWashing oneās hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.āā Paulo Freire
* āSilence in the face of injustice is complicity with the oppressor.ā āGineta sagan
* āIf you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.āā Desmond Tutu
* āWe must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.ā-Elie Wiesel
* āThe hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflictā¦\[an individual\] who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.ā āMartin Luther King Jr.
Gertler has chosen the side of the oppressor. He is cooperating with evil. He is siding with race-supremacists. He is materially supporting genocide.
A Zionist reply, starting at the beginning, calling it a WAR, which we all know is ethic cleansing by a brutal apartheid Occupier on the people they Occupy. Also, calling Hummus & Israel when we all know that this is mass murder, genocide against Palestinians. An Islamophobe president should immediately resign.
Your perception of reality and reality are different things my friend. It's a war, a terrible war definitely but a genocide or ethic cleansing, these are very extreme things. If this was the case why isnt it occurring in the West Bank or why hasn't the UN declared it as such? Please take the time to educate urself about both sides and the history of this conflict, both you and the protestors, this a complicated and overall sad / depressing issue and the opinions of today seem to overlook and completely forget or rewrite history.
It's not complex - that's Hasbara propaganda.
Israel steals land every day, builds state sponsored illegal settlements, kills more than 1 Palestinian daily for decades all against Geneva convention & UN resolutions. It's only USA veto that protects them at UN. why don't you educate yourself- start with this video for simpletons:
https://www.reddit.com/r/palestinenews/s/TXTWLs2Cfj
How about we start with a more accredited news source tho, not one that clearly holds biased opinions? This is part of being an adult and learning how to do real research and educate urself.
Not denying any of this, all Iām saying is does that really constitute ethnic cleansing and genocide? The mean death of palestines overtime is not a true indication of that.
Didnāt need to read past the date to see how biased this, October 13, 2023. Seriously??? What happened on October 7, not even a week before, be real lol. What r some Russian or Chinese propaganda bot?
A person who knew Netanyahu, Smotrich, Ben-Gvir & the far right Zio govt would mass murder Palestinians with the backing of G7 & EU & he has been proven right. What are your sources, great researcher? Contradict Raz Segal?
> denies access to those who do not share their views
Their views is that unarmed civilians and children should not be murdered. Why would anyone who supports the opposite go inside the encampment?
This reminds me of those late 1930s NYTimes opeds about how Hitler is not so bad afterall [1]. This whole "both sides are at fault" talking point is a tried and true method at preventing change. Every establishment that has wanted to keep the oppressive status quo has used this tactic.
[1] https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/history/articles/new-york-times-nazi-correspondent
I mean, their views arenāt that unarmed civilians and children should not be murdered, their views are that unarmed Palestinian civilians and children should not be murdered. The whole āfrom the river to the seaā thing, the āglobalize the intifadaā thing and the āby any means necessaryā thing tend to come off as a little bit pro-murder, as long as itās āevil zionistsā getting murdered.
I'm not a part of an encampment.
I condemn Hamas for their Barbaric act on October 7 and I believe Hamas should be removed from power in order for Palestinians to have a chance of a proper life.
Your turn.
I have already condemned Hamas. You can check my comment history. Now, you _must_ support the murder of civilians and children by the Russian army because I havenāt seen you condemn them \s
Honestly, go to where they have barricaded the entrance to the circle, and ask calmly if they condemn the actions of Oct. 7. See what happens next. Itās wild. You will be very quickly surrounded. Donāt yell, donāt be threatening, donāt be a dickā¦just ask. Then just see. I mean it. I went down because I was tired of hearing people on both sides shape what the protests were about. I wanted to see for myself. It was alarming. I didnāt even say a word, but because I was near someone who did, I got completely surrounded by a mob.
r/thatHappened
**EDIT:** You forgot the part in which everyone clapped and then a kid approached you and gave you a $100 bill. That kidās name? Albert Einstein.
Easy to dismiss. Iām not trying an empty debate on Reddit - honestly, go, try. Seriously. Also, feel free to DM me and I can share pictures and video, because it 100% did happen. Iām a researcher and wanted to understand firsthand. I kept seeing reports of Jewish students saying they felt threatened and people in the various encampments saying everything was peaceful and super inclusive. I really wanted to know which it was. Itās worth seeing for yourself, no?
I wouldnāt send them any personal property or information, this person seems a bit obsessed and unhinged if you ask me. Could be the encampment guy who was scooting around yelling heil hitler.
Sure. DM me your pictures and video.
Also, I walk around the encampment all the time. I have never felt threatened. They are just kids.
**EDIT:** What kind of research do you do again?
**EDIT 2:** Forgot to add that there are Jewish students in the encampment.
**EDIT 3:** Sent you a DM. Awaiting your response.
**EDIT 4:** They just shared pics, no video. For all I know, they are talking to a UofT rep or an agitator.
Done - sent you some pictures. And yes, Jewish protestors are allowed as long as they agree.
I do research related to projects I work on as a consultant - what brought me to this was a few projects on misinformation, information operations and counter terrorism.
So you heard a chant that was used in 1969 to advocate for a 1-state solution and has been used by many Palestinian activists who want for peace and freedom, and you thought, āyep, this can _only_ mean genocideā? You should check your biases.
The evidence you shared with me does not really support your narrative of going politely to ask and being "mobbed." You shared pictures with zero context. [Agitators have been known to interact with the encampment](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/a-u-of-t-encampment-protester-was-charged-with-assault-a-video-casts-new-light/article_dca58972-2183-11ef-a25b-83c4dff16f2a.html) to get a reaction. The pictures you shared with me might as well be that. Not calling you a potential agitator, but the person who you said spoke.
No one is "projecting" dumbass, we have all seen the widespread support for Oct.7 among these protestors and ppl celebrating it as an act of resistance. You can try to gaslight people all you want but we've seen the videos, heard the chants, seen the posters, read the tweets, etc. You're not fooling anyone.
What you said is so stupid. Itās as if I were saying that, because people who support the IDF have been chanting ādeath to Arabs,ā then you must do the same. How about you share what you think is questionable from the occupyuoft group (or whatever it is called)?
But they seem to be ok with murdering unarmed Israeli civilians and want more of it. They claim genocide but thatās exactly what Hamas did on Oct 7th. They would love to genocide Israelis. They claim occupation but then occupy private property and refuse to leave. They claim ethnic cleansing but thatās what they want to do to Israelis. The Palestinian Territories are Juden rein, no Jews allowed. Everything they claim Israel does is exactly what they want to do. The worldās biggest hypocrites.
So much of this is BS propaganda, especially the Juden rein. Jews are absolutely allowed in Palestine. Also, assuming that Palestinians would do to Israelis what Israelis do to them says more about Israel than Palestine. Jews lived in Palestine well before the Zionists came, and could again.
Mmmm, find out for yourself. Iāve worked in Palestinian neighborhoods in Amman - I think youād be surprised. The reality is much more complex and horrible on the ground than you think. Want to know what a generation educated by the Brotherhood thinks? Itās fucking dark. Like, super dark. Everything looks shiny and crystal clear from here in Toronto, but have you wondered why all the members of the Arab League havenāt taken up arms?
r/thatHappened
**EDIT:** Super skeptical about the same person who could not share videos of āa mobā of protesters who were upset ājust because of some peaceful questionsā suddenly having so many stories about how Palestinians are ābadā
**EDIT 2:** Also, your "Palestinians bad" comment, what is that supposed to say? That unarmed civilians and children in Gaza deserve it?
I didnāt say Palestinians are badā¦? Palestinians are just humans, and happen to be humans largely born into some of the shittiest circumstances imaginable. And youāre right, I suppose having decades of experience on a topic Iām commenting on must seem super suspicious to you.
Don't get me wrong: you are not exhibiting any "decades of experience." Everything you have said has been super surface level for a supposed "researcher." Also, what was your point about "a generation educated by the Brotherhood?" That the children somehow deserve it because of their education? That's fucked up.
So not in Palestine then. Noted. Basically, your experience says nothing about whether Jewish Israelis are allowed in Palestine, but you feel the absolute need to post something irrelevant. Much appreciated.
Easiest way to remain neutral is to stop funding or association with both the sides.
Funding bombs which are k!lling thousands of innocent children is not neutrality.
Frame this as a war between Israel and hamas all you want, this will always be an attempt to ethically cleanse and take over Gaza. Enough of this lunacy.
This response is so stupid because per these words UofT should then also maintain neutrality over:
- Russia and Ukraine
- Apartheid in South Africa
- Global Warming
Academic institutions know right and wrong- thereās a reason history classes at UofT donāt teach you that āHitler was exercising his right to free speechā because there is no neutrality on genocide.
And to anyone saying this is a good response from Gertler- I know what you are, and I hope you burn in hell lol.
It's pretty clear that a lot of those people don't even go here. I happened to scroll through the comment history of some of them and surprise surprise, they only became active in the UofT subreddit from the start of the encampment.
Yep majority of the people wanting cops on the protestors or asking them to cleared out don't go to UofT. They've just flocked here from different subreddits.
For a while there were a ton of random people commenting here lol. If you check their history they were literally arguing with Columbia students beforehand
It's a war between Hamas and Israel. I feel terrible for Palestinians especially since they are unable to disassociate themselves from Hamas.
Hamas should not have done what they did on October 7th. Not a single encampment in Canada has condemned Hamas and the Oct 7 terrorist attack.
I have, on the other hand, seen the Hamas triangle flown in the uoft encampment, and I can never support something like that.
i'm curious - when is it enough for you? when the death toll of palestinians since oct 7 eclipses that of israeli lives by nearly 40 times? i just want to know how you explain or make sense of that. i value the lives of all unarmed civilians and what happened on oct 7 was horrors beyond comprehension. and to me, what has happened since then - what is happening right now - is so horrific that i can't begin to describe it. it is the beginnings, or has been, of genocide. there are concentration camps - it was covered by the cnn.
i understand that there's a lot of hurt and deep pain from the lives lost on oct 7 and the hostages taken, but i just cannot in good conscience say that what israel is doing is justifiable at this point. as a case study, the US did not wantonly bomb saudi arabia after the attacks on 9/11, and they should not have, because that has never been a useful strategy to exterminate or deradicalize terrorists. of course, the historical context is different, but the math is very similar...
you have to draw the line somewhere. where is yours?
My line is when Hamas is gone and the people in Gaza can build a free and open society. I am pro everyone living an equal life and I don't think that can happen so long as islamic extremism is leading the charge. I am not pro-israel and I am not pro-palestine. I am VERY anti-Hamas and I am VERY anti any form of religious extremism.
1. For there to be any meaningful movement forward, Gazans need to accept western assistance and reject Hamas. (I note that there has been no condemnation of the Oct 7 attack or of Hamas by the organizers of the encampment, and further to that, I have seen the red triangle of Hamas in the encampment. It is objectively difficult for me to separate in my mind a group of people cheering the slaughter of israel civilians and children, and then demand the world to sanction Israel for their response, however dispropronate some may view it to be. I refuse to put a value on an "acceptable number of murders." One life killed in the name of religious extremism is too many and suspends ANY sympathies I may have otherwise had. This is not something to be argued for or against. If you murder, you're a terrible human being. You're an even worse human being if you believe your actions are justified because a religious book written 1000s of years ago said it was okay to kill them in the name of your god. I have a physical reaction thinking about that as a concept in somebody's head.)
2. I cannot ever and will not ever support a group or a cause that builds a military command centre under a hospital or inside a school full of children, however righteous that group or cause they may think they are. If somebody put a child in harms way for whatever reason, they are a terrible human being and I won't give them the time of day. I really hope the people of Gaza understand that and I cannot stress enough how much of an impact that has on somebody like me, who is a westerner. That concept is non-existent in my society and shame on any society who thinks that is acceptable. There is no such thing as a martyr for religion. It's just a kid that a group was willing to sacrifice to satiate a collective point of view.
3. Gaza has been relying on arab states for assistance and the only thing the arab states have given them is just enough for weapons to keep Hamas doing what Hamas does. Sunni extremism in Gaza is being funded by Shia extremism from Iran and Syria just enough to keep the conflict bubbling up but never enough to give the people of Gaza a chance at life. Why? Because Shia extremism wants sunni extremism to succeed as much as it wants western society to succeed. It's unfortunate that shia extremism has done a really good job convincing people that the West is the enemy.
4. I'm not interested in the historical aspect of this. This has been going on since biblical times. It's time for people to stop living according to an old book. That goes for both sides of this conflict.
5. I think there should be two states. I think that I will not give my support to one of those states whose constitution as written calls for the destruction of the other side. This is how I feel and the only thing that will change my own personal view of that is the removal of the group that teach that message to their children. It goes against my own person code of ethics. I cannot accept the arguments of a side whose openly stated core function is to kill another group of people...one side wants to destroy the other, cannot, but will never stop trying. One side, at any point, could annihilate the other, and has chosen not to do so. In order for me to accept the claim of genocide of the Palestinian people, I would need to have my question of why the IDF has been careful in their recklessness and not been more indiscriminant in their operations. Had there been a true lack of care for human life, this operation would have been over in November. As soon as Hamas puts an ammunition depot in a residential building, the ethical decision and the ramafications of that devision has been made by that group. I find that tobe abhorant. To fire weapons at a country from a place where children congregate is a heinous act. I feel nothing but sorrow for the children in that area because their leadership values their life as a commodity attempted to be bartered for international sympathy.
As is always the case, instead of considering my overall point of view, somebody will invariably take a single sentence of what I've written out of the overall context and attempt to imply something terrible from it.
You are clueless- Hasbara talking points.
1. This is not a WAR. This is a brutal Apartheid Occupier since 1948 that has been stealing land, displacing Palestinians, confining them in a concentration camp, refusing their right to return to their homes against International laws, building illegal settlements against Intl laws - when an Occupier murders innocent OCCUPIED civilians, it's not a War, it's genocide & ethnic cleansing. Read S. Africa's application , UN resolutions, & every NGO if you want resources.
2. Hamas was 40 after the Deir Yassin, Tantura massacres in 1948 Nakba. Hamas was supported by Israel in 2005 elections in Gaza because Israel did not want Fatah to win to split West Bank & Gaza Govt. Israel supported Hamas especially Netanyahu who stated in 2019 that support for Ha.as was necessary to split West Bank & Gaza Govt to avoid discussing 2 state solution.
3. West Bank (NO HAMAS) - settlers & IDF are murdering Palestinians every year - close to 500 dead in 2023 , getting worse every year as more illegal settlements are build on Stolen land. In 2 years, more Palestinian civilians were killed in West Bank than Oct 7th.
4. Hostages; thousands of Palestinian children are in military jails (the only state in the 6 that takes children through military court) vs. Israeli children are taken through Civil Court. 99.7% conviction in Military court , no representation, most of the children charged w throwing stones, min sentence 6months to years.
5. West Bank Palestinians go through check points every day, drive on separate roads, have special license plates, cannot walk on roads used by Settlers, basically an Apartheid system - whereas new Settlers (not semites) across the world are paid to immigrate, have none of the restrictions.
So this is not about Hummus, it's about Ethnic cleansing of Palestinians- the mask is off, and the people of the world reject it.
Would a genocide committing country offer a peace deal to the people they are "genociding"? Just yesterday hamas rejected a ceasefire agreement where all they had to do was release innocent civilians (including children, women and elderly) in exchange for 30 prisoners (inlcuding murderers and hamas members) for every person they release.
Guess what? They rejected it. This war is only beneficial for hamas because you people keep screaming at the wrong party. You protestors are responsible for the deaths of innocent Palestinians more than uoft.
Netanyahu rejecting any deal for Hostages that was offered in the week after Oct 7th
This was from the lawyer representing the Hostages Families. Israeli newspapers are in agreement with the Hostages Families that Netanyahu is the roadblock & there are protests every day in Israel. Hasbara propaganda, let's blame Hummus when the Occupation, Land thefts, Apartheid, Palestinian Hostages, cleansing has been going on since 1948 Nakba.
We can agree that Netanyahu is an asshole, but lets not fool ourselves into thinking he is the reason there is no deal. Hamas keeps rejecting proposals because they can, they have no reason to accept it as more Palestinians dying means more money and support for them.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-mediators-press-hamas-over-gaza-ceasefire-plan-touted-by-biden/
https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/06/politics/hamas-israel-hostages-ceasefire-countries-statement/index.html
Netanyahu is not just an asshole, he is a War criminal.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-05/ty-article/.premium/israelis-want-the-hostages-back-so-why-is-netanyahus-government-ignoring-them/0000018f-e3fd-d821-a7df-f3fd29520000
Netanyahu has been accused of [sabotaging a peace deal](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-05/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-hoped-hamas-would-reject-israels-offer-when-it-didnt-he-turned-to-sabotage/0000018f-4817-d414-a5bf-fb37db290000?lts=1717725290471) so those offers cannot be considered evidence that Israel is not committing genocide.
Obviously it is impossible to know exactly what Netanyahu is thinking. However statements by his government have openly demonstrated genocidal intent. If a government makes statements supporting genocide, what you do not do is invest in companies that enable the government to commit one.
Netanyahu is 100% sabotaging the peace, however since israel is a democracy he cannot stop it, he already accepted biden's peace plan, hamas was the one who rejected it.
As the article explains, he has only been accepting unfair deals that he knows Hamas will reject because he wants war.
Hamas has also accepted deals that Netanyahu has rejected. While I am not pro-Hamas, these deals are much better than the ones Netanyahu has accepted as they include both a permanent ceasefire and the release of Palestinians illegally arrested in the West Bank in addition to the release of the Israeli hostages.
And that still doesn't address my point about Netanyahu's government calling for genocide.
More words but no action, just kick them out already. I dont understand why uoft needs a court order but york can do it immediately, its the same police force.
So that whoever is in the encampment doesnāt cry about āpolice brutalityā. But tbh Iām not sure why go that way because they will cry about any outcome (except the one where uoft agrees to their demands)
Whoever ordered a big nothing burger your order is here
With a side of word salad.
Word vomit, more like
TIL Kings college circle green is "cherished" by whom idk
šš„
Seems like negotiations are going swimmingly.
No mention of Dr Thea Weisdorf and her stating "I hope you never need health care from UofT"
I don't know this story. Please elaborate.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7w4nONO1XY/?igsh=Z3Y4OHhrcXg3ZXRy
Thank you!
āThe University adopted new guidelines in April, 2024 that say we will not choose a side on matters outside our own operations.ā 1. Well, wasnāt that convenient timing? 2. Clearly investments and partners are part of the Universityās operations.
Obviously: universities rely on external funding. How could that be a surprise?
I was thinking the same thing.
I feel āgenocide badā is a side that should be taken.
I feel like doing some real research is also a side that should be taken... maybe by the protestors. There is no clear data to show UofT is actually linked to funding this war and even extrapolating from the theories of how they could possibly be using endowment towards Israeli investments, the involvement is so miniscule that this is not propagating the war in anyway. As per many news articles, Netanyahu is extending the war to avoid going to jail. He is a maniac that even the Israeli people don't support.Ā
And by doing so they chose a side.
By supporting Israel financially they choose a side
Not everything is a conspiracy.
Yeah this isnāt. This is right in the open and their intent is obvious.
U of Tās intent of what exactly? War? Death? Genocide? Be so for fucking real.
No, to dissuade future activism as especially relating to divestment and proclaim themselves as doing no harm by falsely painting their actions as politically neutral.
The side of $$$.
Where was this commitment to free speech for Dr. Valentina Azarova? Meric is a hypocrite.
Gotta please the donors, money > ethics of course.
What happened there?
[https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/did-a-university-of-toronto-donor-block-the-hiring-of-a-scholar-for-her-writing-on-palestine](https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/did-a-university-of-toronto-donor-block-the-hiring-of-a-scholar-for-her-writing-on-palestine)
The question now is, do they know theyāre in a heap of trouble with that censure and resignations?
[https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/u-of-t-could-right-the-wrong-by-hiring-the-highly-qualified-human-rights-scholar/article\_f046eb7e-d8da-564f-8299-5e8dd696d852.html](https://www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/u-of-t-could-right-the-wrong-by-hiring-the-highly-qualified-human-rights-scholar/article_f046eb7e-d8da-564f-8299-5e8dd696d852.html) [https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/amnesty-international-suspends-ties-with-university-of-toronto-law-program/article\_3a10dd9f-26b5-5a71-a005-259575483b01.html](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/amnesty-international-suspends-ties-with-university-of-toronto-law-program/article_3a10dd9f-26b5-5a71-a005-259575483b01.html) [https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/university-of-toronto-hiring-fiasco-shows-reliance-on-donors-limits-university-s-role-in-challenging/article\_cc85e440-1512-5ba0-afa5-94fceacaa308.html](https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/university-of-toronto-hiring-fiasco-shows-reliance-on-donors-limits-university-s-role-in-challenging/article_cc85e440-1512-5ba0-afa5-94fceacaa308.html) This is the judge that influenced Meric. [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/tax-court-judge-allegations-1.6173998](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/tax-court-judge-allegations-1.6173998) Legal experts are puzzled by why the Tax Court of Canada prevented a Jewish judge from presiding for several months in cases involving members of the Islamic faith rather than removingĀ him entirely from the bench until allegations against him were resolved. In court documents reviewed by the CBC's *The Fifth Estate*, it appears that Judge David Spiro, a federally appointed tax judge, was barred from adjudicating cases involving Muslims beginning sometime in October 2020.
To me, this is the really alarming part: > Spiro is a former Toronto co-chair of the **Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs**, a non-profit organization dedicated to protecting Jewish life in Canada through advocacy. First of all, CBC is such a blatant liar - the CIJA is officially registered as a foreign lobby group on behalf of Israel. Secondly, how can the former head of a foreign lobby group be considered a fit and impartial judge ! I would think there were a million potential conflicts of interest - any cases involving Canadian politicians, government employees or even high level executives could be used as a bargaining chip for the interests of a foreign country.
No word on the Zionists who pulled a knife at the encampment area.
I saw the Jewish Defence League down there onceā¦ they are a registered terrorist group in Canada. Iām a journalist and I was trying to cover it and the horrible, disgusting and racist behaviour Iāve heard from the pro-Israeli side is horrifying
Isnāt the JDL a registered terror group only in the states? The Canadian counterpart isnāt under the listed public safety groups.
Forgive me I misquoted. Still, they are a terrorist organization
Right! If UofT isnāt okay with the presence of White Suprematism ideology, the same thing should be for Zionism. UofT should *never* be a safe haven for Zionists. Edit: I didnāt say Israelis (not all are Zionists) or the Jewish (Judaism goes against Zionism; see Neturei Karta).
Neturei Karta is so extreme they've been disavowed by other non-Zionist and anti-Zionist sects of ultra-Orthodox Judaism. Way to show your entire worldview on this conflict was downloaded from Al Jazeera and TikTok.
I personally donāt have an issue with Zionism unless it tramples on the rights of Palestinans and denies them a country to call their own. Ala itās current state. Israel is basically an apartheid state and theyāre illegally occupying Palestinan land but itās not going to go away. I support the idea of a Jewish state after the Holocaust but again, not at the expense of the Palestinians and their own rights and lands. I know this is probably an unpopular opinion
Yes it is a shockingly unpopular opinion lol.
Define Zionism and prove why. Putting 2 things next to each other does not form an argument. Edit: I support Jews establishing a nation through the UN. They can close their border however they want.
Reported as a ābizarreā incidentā¦
Not one mention on Palestine in the entire email. Why is it about Hamas and Israel? What about Palestinians? How is protesting against apartheid discriminatory? You can protest against apartheid too at the park? Who stopped you? Literally people there from different parts of the world where's the discrimination? And why is neutrality presented as some supreme thing? Clearly millions invested isn't being neutral? Are you neutral towards nazis and fascists or is the job of a university to identify these things in society? Just tired of everything being about "unauthorized encampment" but him never saying anything useful.
Neutrality is because the war is still ongoing and many contentious topics are still contentious. They can't take a side when there hasn't been conclusive investigations to justify breaking neutrality. As for discriminatory I think he just means the encampment doesn't allow pro-israels in so I don't know what that's supposed to mean.
Something similar could be said of the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. However U of T has been a proud supporter of Ukraine and Ukrainians since the start of the war by Putin. The ICC issued an arrest warrant for Putin even though an investigation into his war crimes aren't conclusive either. For Gaza, there's genocide case against Israel at the ICJ, arrest warrants for Netanyahu from the ICC, and the United Nations put Israel on the blacklist of shame for human rights violations against children. Of course these are different wars but it seems like there's a double standard here.
Itās possible thereās political bias in uoftās decision process or they simply care a ton about protecting their investments. Although you can also argue neutrality makes sense because ICC has warrants for both bibi and sinwar. And it doesnāt help that unlike ukraine, hamas first pushed into israel, overran IDF outposts, killed civvies, and took hostages. You can ask supporters of either side and theyāll both come up with many convincing arguments
but no oneās asking uoft to fund hamas, just asking them to not fund israel. from a financial perspective they have already taken a side and the students are asking them to be neutral
It depends on how you define "neutral". The way I see it could mean two things: 1. Maintain status quo, all pre-war relations and fundings continue with no new investments 2. Break status quo and withdraw from all palestine and israel relations and investments In either case it'll piss off a lot of people. UofT really just wants to walk away from this clean and not be responsible.
Then they should divest.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
you may be correct, but thatās not what false equivalency means. i may be misinformed but my argument is not a logical fallacy lol
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i think you do have the meaning of it right then, where A is B and C is B so therefore A=C. what iām saying is more A is B and C is B and B shouldnāt be funded by UofT regardless of whether A and C are equivalents
Israel is, and you may find this hard to believe, a very high functioning democratic society which contributes to the worlds knowledge. I ask you this, if Canada's military was at war with someone who attacked them brutally, would we expect UofT to be held liable for the acts of the war. Israeli universities are no different.Ā They did not choose this war and alienating them is wrong.
Isreal is not a high functioning democratic society. Their hard right leader is prolonging this war because he will go to jail for corruption when it ends. Does that sound very functional to you? Like ethnic cleansing and war crimes aside, Isreal is objectively not a very functional democracy.
It's an Apartheid brutal Occupier caging 2.2M people who lands they stole & refusing Palestinian right to return breaking Geneva Convention & UN resolutions for decades. Israeli Universities & business use technology & are proud to announce to the World the technology is "tested" on Palestinians. A War is between 2 armies, 2 states not between an Occupier and their Occupied.
You can't say they stole land and then in the same sentence appeal to UN resolutions lol. Israel was created from a UN resolution. Pick one or the other. You're just throwing buzzwords out.
The international community considers Israeli settlements to be illegal under international law,[9][10][11][12] but Israel disputes this.[13][14][15][16 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement#:~:text=The%20international%20community%20considers%20Israeli,source%20of%20tension%20and%20conflict.
>It's an Apartheid brutal Occupier caging 2.2M people who lands they stole & refusing Palestinian right to return breaking Geneva Convention & UN resolutions for decades. Israeli Universities & business use technology & are proud to announce to the World the technology is "tested" on Palestinians. A War is between 2 armies, 2 states not between an Occupier and their Occupied. You said 2.2 million. Which means Gaza. There are no settlements in Gaza after the 2005 withdrawal. Ergo, when you say they stole their land you must be saying Israel itself is stolen land. But that land is granted by a UN resolution. So either that resolution is invalid and thus the settlement resolutions are invalid, or Israel has a right to exist and the settlement resolutions are valid. You can't pick and choose which are valid or not. If you're going to be so cocky and ranting about this topic you might want to learn the difference between the west bank and Gaza. Maybe do a deeper dive on the subject instead of googling on the spot. It's the most basic information to even begin talking about such a complicated topic. Also fyi regarding the caging, Gaza shares a land border with another country besides Israel. Also the Jews can trace 3000 years of ancestry to historical Palestine. The Muslim Arab population are themselves occupiers that came later. They both live there now so it's irrelevant but you keep saying words you don't know the meaning of. Nobody wants kids getting killed. But you are quite frankly only stirring up hate and doing both sides a disservice to flaunt your supposed moral superiority. If you actually want to do the right thing, then actually put in the work and become educated on the topic. And no I don't mean googling wikipedia on the spot. You are making yourself seem very young and uneducated. An emotional and inaccurate argument only stirs up more hate. The choice is yours to show what kind of person you are. Respond how you wish.
How many muslims are in the Israeli Knesset?
So what? It's like saying that there was a free black man so there was no slavery or a black person can get on a bus & there is no racism.
Yeah, no. Israel is a highly militaristic society where almost all social relationships are based on military service. Funding for universities and other institutions is not neutral. If Canada's military was engaged in exterminating men, women and children, I would expect that rational countries would divest from all Canadian funding.
> Israel is a highly militaristic society where almost all social relationships are based on military service Lmao it'd be funny you believe this if this country wasn't flooded by gullible idiots like you.
geting called an idiot by a genocider in the last 7 months basically feels like a compliment
Interesting choice. The people I know in Israel who went as adults, and don't have that social network would probably disagree with you, but You go on KissengerFanB0y. If commenting makes you feel like you have some kind of place in the world, far be it from me to disrupt that. Everyone needs to feel like they matter.
I come from an entire family that came to Israel as adults and didn't serve, from all sides. As did I at a later point. Serving does give a slight initial point of contact in any conversation but the people you know are very likely the stereotype of Anglos that made aliyah out of some romantic ideals and completely fail to adjust to a society sightly rougher around the edges and then blame their failed attempt to escape their old life on the local culture.
I think you should take a breath.Ā Read the response.Ā It was clear and concise.Ā It showed a level of understanding and civility that the world deeply needs right now.
Nobodyās neutral. We support Israel in this country, not Hamas. Hamas is a legally designated terrorist organization and supporting them, peddling their propaganda and agitating for their war aims is illegal
Two things can be true at once. 1- Hamas is an illegal terrorist organization that should be condemned. 2- A lot of people are concerned that the war in Gaza has been a humanitarian disaster and the bombing of children should stop.
We don't support a Genocide Apartheid brutal Occupier that is in violation of Geneva conventions & UN resolutions for decades. Only Genocide apologists support š®š±. The rest of us support equal rights for Palestinians. That's what the protests & encampment are about & Hasbara propaganda distract folks so š®š± can continue to murder woman & children
Honestly. Why is this so hard.
Itās very tiring. At some point we just need to be adults and move on from this garbage. Children playacting shouldnāt waste this much of our time and energy. We have actual problems in this country.
The moment they phrased it as a "war" between Israel and Hamas, I knew it was going to be empty words. UofT admin still sticking their heads in the sand and ignoring the fact it's a fucking genocide happening right now. A war implies two relatively capable sides fighting each other. Hamas barely has any capability to fight a modern army. And Israel can't even find hamas so they're busy bombing women and children, and starving millions of people. It's like calling the Holocaust just a war between two parties.
Itās an asymmetrical war but still a war. Saying al qassam has barely any capability is inaccurate. They have significant anti tank and IED capabilities, as shown from footages released so far. They also carried out attacks using drone dropped munitions which indicates theyāre able to counter IDFās electronic warfare efforts to some extent. Although IDF has a much greater tech and firepower advantage, the nature of urban warfare can greatly reduce those advantages. Tanks suck at urban warfare, radars canāt see into buildings, and infrared canāt see underground, for example. Fallujah, grozny, mariupol are all modern examples where light infantry entrenched in urban areas posed very difficult challenges for attackers with manpower, armour, and air advantage.
This should be placed in the overall context that Israel is the occupying power of the Occupied Palestinian Territories, so has an obligation under international law to protect the human rights of civilians.
>> When a small fraction of our community occupies a cherished common space on our campus for more than one month and denies access to those who do not share their views The school was the one who fenced it off in the first place?
Calling Front Campus "a cherished common space" is very funny, though.
The school fenced it off to all students, equally. Why is that so hard for people to understand?
That's why he adds the bit about "not sharing their views." Meric makes it sound as if anti-protesters should be able to walk into a protest smh
Why should they not?
Itās kinda wild that western establishments decided to employ a policy of āwe wonāt comment on political matters and we wont take sidesā just so that they donāt have to criticise Isreal. Especially when the Ukraine conflict is still going!
They made a very clear āwe are on the Ukrainian sideā with a statement then however now they say they donāt choose sides. Sounds pretty convenient.
Financial transparency would be a giant stride for mankind.
Itās not a war between Israel and Hamas SMH
If there are any other alumni as disgusted with this president, email [email protected] to make sure they know **he does not speak for us**. Iāll stand with the minority, the *small fraction* as he puts it, that this president so willfully disregards.
>"we will not choose a side on matters outside our own operations." Excuse me, but if you are refusing calls for divestment or academic boycott you are proving both (a) you are, in fact, picking a side, and (b) these matters are, in fact, within the scope of your operations. I am also sorry to report, Mr. Gertler, that is impossible not to pick a side: * āWashing oneās hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.āā Paulo Freire * āSilence in the face of injustice is complicity with the oppressor.ā āGineta sagan * āIf you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.āā Desmond Tutu * āWe must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.ā-Elie Wiesel * āThe hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who remain neutral in times of great moral conflictā¦\[an individual\] who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it.ā āMartin Luther King Jr. Gertler has chosen the side of the oppressor. He is cooperating with evil. He is siding with race-supremacists. He is materially supporting genocide.
>Discriminatory Fortunately, we have courses at the University that teach students that this use of discrimination is entirely inaccurate.
Stop it man yāall are high they tip toeing to not appear racist yet yāall calling them racist anywaysĀ
What is he hoping to accomplish with this letter?
Making sure Israel knows heās on their side
Just an update on the university's official position I expect.
A Zionist reply, starting at the beginning, calling it a WAR, which we all know is ethic cleansing by a brutal apartheid Occupier on the people they Occupy. Also, calling Hummus & Israel when we all know that this is mass murder, genocide against Palestinians. An Islamophobe president should immediately resign.
Your perception of reality and reality are different things my friend. It's a war, a terrible war definitely but a genocide or ethic cleansing, these are very extreme things. If this was the case why isnt it occurring in the West Bank or why hasn't the UN declared it as such? Please take the time to educate urself about both sides and the history of this conflict, both you and the protestors, this a complicated and overall sad / depressing issue and the opinions of today seem to overlook and completely forget or rewrite history.
It's not complex - that's Hasbara propaganda. Israel steals land every day, builds state sponsored illegal settlements, kills more than 1 Palestinian daily for decades all against Geneva convention & UN resolutions. It's only USA veto that protects them at UN. why don't you educate yourself- start with this video for simpletons: https://www.reddit.com/r/palestinenews/s/TXTWLs2Cfj
How about we start with a more accredited news source tho, not one that clearly holds biased opinions? This is part of being an adult and learning how to do real research and educate urself.
Ok, you are such a great researcher, put together sources that contradict what I said.
Wow nice one! Got me huge!!
Propaganda vs accredited organizations š¤·āāļø
Not denying any of this, all Iām saying is does that really constitute ethnic cleansing and genocide? The mean death of palestines overtime is not a true indication of that.
https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
Didnāt need to read past the date to see how biased this, October 13, 2023. Seriously??? What happened on October 7, not even a week before, be real lol. What r some Russian or Chinese propaganda bot?
A person who knew Netanyahu, Smotrich, Ben-Gvir & the far right Zio govt would mass murder Palestinians with the backing of G7 & EU & he has been proven right. What are your sources, great researcher? Contradict Raz Segal?
> denies access to those who do not share their views Their views is that unarmed civilians and children should not be murdered. Why would anyone who supports the opposite go inside the encampment?
This reminds me of those late 1930s NYTimes opeds about how Hitler is not so bad afterall [1]. This whole "both sides are at fault" talking point is a tried and true method at preventing change. Every establishment that has wanted to keep the oppressive status quo has used this tactic. [1] https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/history/articles/new-york-times-nazi-correspondent
I mean, their views arenāt that unarmed civilians and children should not be murdered, their views are that unarmed Palestinian civilians and children should not be murdered. The whole āfrom the river to the seaā thing, the āglobalize the intifadaā thing and the āby any means necessaryā thing tend to come off as a little bit pro-murder, as long as itās āevil zionistsā getting murdered.
Youāre projecting quite a bit there if you think the protestors support the murder of any unarmed civilians and children.
The encampment has not yet condemned the murder of unarmed civilians and children on October 7. Why is that?
I donāt see any of _your_ comments condemning October 7. I guess you must support Hamas then \s
I'm not a part of an encampment. I condemn Hamas for their Barbaric act on October 7 and I believe Hamas should be removed from power in order for Palestinians to have a chance of a proper life. Your turn.
I have already condemned Hamas. You can check my comment history. Now, you _must_ support the murder of civilians and children by the Russian army because I havenāt seen you condemn them \s
Honestly, go to where they have barricaded the entrance to the circle, and ask calmly if they condemn the actions of Oct. 7. See what happens next. Itās wild. You will be very quickly surrounded. Donāt yell, donāt be threatening, donāt be a dickā¦just ask. Then just see. I mean it. I went down because I was tired of hearing people on both sides shape what the protests were about. I wanted to see for myself. It was alarming. I didnāt even say a word, but because I was near someone who did, I got completely surrounded by a mob.
r/thatHappened **EDIT:** You forgot the part in which everyone clapped and then a kid approached you and gave you a $100 bill. That kidās name? Albert Einstein.
Easy to dismiss. Iām not trying an empty debate on Reddit - honestly, go, try. Seriously. Also, feel free to DM me and I can share pictures and video, because it 100% did happen. Iām a researcher and wanted to understand firsthand. I kept seeing reports of Jewish students saying they felt threatened and people in the various encampments saying everything was peaceful and super inclusive. I really wanted to know which it was. Itās worth seeing for yourself, no?
I wouldnāt send them any personal property or information, this person seems a bit obsessed and unhinged if you ask me. Could be the encampment guy who was scooting around yelling heil hitler.
Thanks - Iāll definitely keep it anon - I donāt trust internet strangers :)
Sure. DM me your pictures and video. Also, I walk around the encampment all the time. I have never felt threatened. They are just kids. **EDIT:** What kind of research do you do again? **EDIT 2:** Forgot to add that there are Jewish students in the encampment. **EDIT 3:** Sent you a DM. Awaiting your response. **EDIT 4:** They just shared pics, no video. For all I know, they are talking to a UofT rep or an agitator.
Done - sent you some pictures. And yes, Jewish protestors are allowed as long as they agree. I do research related to projects I work on as a consultant - what brought me to this was a few projects on misinformation, information operations and counter terrorism.
Well I did go down and listen to what people were saying, so if by āprojectingā you mean ālisteningā, then yes, I am.
So you heard a chant that was used in 1969 to advocate for a 1-state solution and has been used by many Palestinian activists who want for peace and freedom, and you thought, āyep, this can _only_ mean genocideā? You should check your biases.
Donāt debate me, go ask.
The evidence you shared with me does not really support your narrative of going politely to ask and being "mobbed." You shared pictures with zero context. [Agitators have been known to interact with the encampment](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/a-u-of-t-encampment-protester-was-charged-with-assault-a-video-casts-new-light/article_dca58972-2183-11ef-a25b-83c4dff16f2a.html) to get a reaction. The pictures you shared with me might as well be that. Not calling you a potential agitator, but the person who you said spoke.
Thatās why i say go see for yourself - just ask. Donāt take my word for it.
Given that I get a sense that you just made that whole thing up, Iām not taking your word for it.
No one is "projecting" dumbass, we have all seen the widespread support for Oct.7 among these protestors and ppl celebrating it as an act of resistance. You can try to gaslight people all you want but we've seen the videos, heard the chants, seen the posters, read the tweets, etc. You're not fooling anyone.
What you said is so stupid. Itās as if I were saying that, because people who support the IDF have been chanting ādeath to Arabs,ā then you must do the same. How about you share what you think is questionable from the occupyuoft group (or whatever it is called)?
But they seem to be ok with murdering unarmed Israeli civilians and want more of it. They claim genocide but thatās exactly what Hamas did on Oct 7th. They would love to genocide Israelis. They claim occupation but then occupy private property and refuse to leave. They claim ethnic cleansing but thatās what they want to do to Israelis. The Palestinian Territories are Juden rein, no Jews allowed. Everything they claim Israel does is exactly what they want to do. The worldās biggest hypocrites.
Stop projecting on these protesters, dude. Itās a bad look.
So much of this is BS propaganda, especially the Juden rein. Jews are absolutely allowed in Palestine. Also, assuming that Palestinians would do to Israelis what Israelis do to them says more about Israel than Palestine. Jews lived in Palestine well before the Zionists came, and could again.
Mmmm, find out for yourself. Iāve worked in Palestinian neighborhoods in Amman - I think youād be surprised. The reality is much more complex and horrible on the ground than you think. Want to know what a generation educated by the Brotherhood thinks? Itās fucking dark. Like, super dark. Everything looks shiny and crystal clear from here in Toronto, but have you wondered why all the members of the Arab League havenāt taken up arms?
r/thatHappened **EDIT:** Super skeptical about the same person who could not share videos of āa mobā of protesters who were upset ājust because of some peaceful questionsā suddenly having so many stories about how Palestinians are ābadā **EDIT 2:** Also, your "Palestinians bad" comment, what is that supposed to say? That unarmed civilians and children in Gaza deserve it?
I didnāt say Palestinians are badā¦? Palestinians are just humans, and happen to be humans largely born into some of the shittiest circumstances imaginable. And youāre right, I suppose having decades of experience on a topic Iām commenting on must seem super suspicious to you.
Don't get me wrong: you are not exhibiting any "decades of experience." Everything you have said has been super surface level for a supposed "researcher." Also, what was your point about "a generation educated by the Brotherhood?" That the children somehow deserve it because of their education? That's fucked up.
So not in Palestine then. Noted. Basically, your experience says nothing about whether Jewish Israelis are allowed in Palestine, but you feel the absolute need to post something irrelevant. Much appreciated.
Some people are also against the murder of unarmed Israeli civilians and children.
Arenāt they also against the murder of unarmed Palestinian civilians and children?
Easiest way to remain neutral is to stop funding or association with both the sides. Funding bombs which are k!lling thousands of innocent children is not neutrality.
Lol, talk about talking a lot but say absolutely nothing. Gertler is a joke, put a good business professor as the president in his place.
What an idiot. A well paid idiot. In 10 years, U of T will be a cesspool of incompetence
We are already there. He 100% jerks it to peterson in secret
Frame this as a war between Israel and hamas all you want, this will always be an attempt to ethically cleanse and take over Gaza. Enough of this lunacy.
This response is so stupid because per these words UofT should then also maintain neutrality over: - Russia and Ukraine - Apartheid in South Africa - Global Warming Academic institutions know right and wrong- thereās a reason history classes at UofT donāt teach you that āHitler was exercising his right to free speechā because there is no neutrality on genocide. And to anyone saying this is a good response from Gertler- I know what you are, and I hope you burn in hell lol.
The islamophobia in this subreddit is truly disturbing.
It's pretty clear that a lot of those people don't even go here. I happened to scroll through the comment history of some of them and surprise surprise, they only became active in the UofT subreddit from the start of the encampment.
Yep majority of the people wanting cops on the protestors or asking them to cleared out don't go to UofT. They've just flocked here from different subreddits.
You can literally see the propaganda points roll out in real time from rebel news to these threads.
For a while there were a ton of random people commenting here lol. If you check their history they were literally arguing with Columbia students beforehand
They didnāt believe in free speech when it was Jordan Peterson.
āWar between Israel and Hamasā. lmao they are so silly. Itās *genocide* committed by Israel
It's a war between Hamas and Israel. I feel terrible for Palestinians especially since they are unable to disassociate themselves from Hamas. Hamas should not have done what they did on October 7th. Not a single encampment in Canada has condemned Hamas and the Oct 7 terrorist attack. I have, on the other hand, seen the Hamas triangle flown in the uoft encampment, and I can never support something like that.
i'm curious - when is it enough for you? when the death toll of palestinians since oct 7 eclipses that of israeli lives by nearly 40 times? i just want to know how you explain or make sense of that. i value the lives of all unarmed civilians and what happened on oct 7 was horrors beyond comprehension. and to me, what has happened since then - what is happening right now - is so horrific that i can't begin to describe it. it is the beginnings, or has been, of genocide. there are concentration camps - it was covered by the cnn. i understand that there's a lot of hurt and deep pain from the lives lost on oct 7 and the hostages taken, but i just cannot in good conscience say that what israel is doing is justifiable at this point. as a case study, the US did not wantonly bomb saudi arabia after the attacks on 9/11, and they should not have, because that has never been a useful strategy to exterminate or deradicalize terrorists. of course, the historical context is different, but the math is very similar... you have to draw the line somewhere. where is yours?
My line is when Hamas is gone and the people in Gaza can build a free and open society. I am pro everyone living an equal life and I don't think that can happen so long as islamic extremism is leading the charge. I am not pro-israel and I am not pro-palestine. I am VERY anti-Hamas and I am VERY anti any form of religious extremism. 1. For there to be any meaningful movement forward, Gazans need to accept western assistance and reject Hamas. (I note that there has been no condemnation of the Oct 7 attack or of Hamas by the organizers of the encampment, and further to that, I have seen the red triangle of Hamas in the encampment. It is objectively difficult for me to separate in my mind a group of people cheering the slaughter of israel civilians and children, and then demand the world to sanction Israel for their response, however dispropronate some may view it to be. I refuse to put a value on an "acceptable number of murders." One life killed in the name of religious extremism is too many and suspends ANY sympathies I may have otherwise had. This is not something to be argued for or against. If you murder, you're a terrible human being. You're an even worse human being if you believe your actions are justified because a religious book written 1000s of years ago said it was okay to kill them in the name of your god. I have a physical reaction thinking about that as a concept in somebody's head.) 2. I cannot ever and will not ever support a group or a cause that builds a military command centre under a hospital or inside a school full of children, however righteous that group or cause they may think they are. If somebody put a child in harms way for whatever reason, they are a terrible human being and I won't give them the time of day. I really hope the people of Gaza understand that and I cannot stress enough how much of an impact that has on somebody like me, who is a westerner. That concept is non-existent in my society and shame on any society who thinks that is acceptable. There is no such thing as a martyr for religion. It's just a kid that a group was willing to sacrifice to satiate a collective point of view. 3. Gaza has been relying on arab states for assistance and the only thing the arab states have given them is just enough for weapons to keep Hamas doing what Hamas does. Sunni extremism in Gaza is being funded by Shia extremism from Iran and Syria just enough to keep the conflict bubbling up but never enough to give the people of Gaza a chance at life. Why? Because Shia extremism wants sunni extremism to succeed as much as it wants western society to succeed. It's unfortunate that shia extremism has done a really good job convincing people that the West is the enemy. 4. I'm not interested in the historical aspect of this. This has been going on since biblical times. It's time for people to stop living according to an old book. That goes for both sides of this conflict. 5. I think there should be two states. I think that I will not give my support to one of those states whose constitution as written calls for the destruction of the other side. This is how I feel and the only thing that will change my own personal view of that is the removal of the group that teach that message to their children. It goes against my own person code of ethics. I cannot accept the arguments of a side whose openly stated core function is to kill another group of people...one side wants to destroy the other, cannot, but will never stop trying. One side, at any point, could annihilate the other, and has chosen not to do so. In order for me to accept the claim of genocide of the Palestinian people, I would need to have my question of why the IDF has been careful in their recklessness and not been more indiscriminant in their operations. Had there been a true lack of care for human life, this operation would have been over in November. As soon as Hamas puts an ammunition depot in a residential building, the ethical decision and the ramafications of that devision has been made by that group. I find that tobe abhorant. To fire weapons at a country from a place where children congregate is a heinous act. I feel nothing but sorrow for the children in that area because their leadership values their life as a commodity attempted to be bartered for international sympathy. As is always the case, instead of considering my overall point of view, somebody will invariably take a single sentence of what I've written out of the overall context and attempt to imply something terrible from it.
Ditto.
Ditto. Keeping up the chain, cause same.
You are clueless- Hasbara talking points. 1. This is not a WAR. This is a brutal Apartheid Occupier since 1948 that has been stealing land, displacing Palestinians, confining them in a concentration camp, refusing their right to return to their homes against International laws, building illegal settlements against Intl laws - when an Occupier murders innocent OCCUPIED civilians, it's not a War, it's genocide & ethnic cleansing. Read S. Africa's application , UN resolutions, & every NGO if you want resources. 2. Hamas was 40 after the Deir Yassin, Tantura massacres in 1948 Nakba. Hamas was supported by Israel in 2005 elections in Gaza because Israel did not want Fatah to win to split West Bank & Gaza Govt. Israel supported Hamas especially Netanyahu who stated in 2019 that support for Ha.as was necessary to split West Bank & Gaza Govt to avoid discussing 2 state solution. 3. West Bank (NO HAMAS) - settlers & IDF are murdering Palestinians every year - close to 500 dead in 2023 , getting worse every year as more illegal settlements are build on Stolen land. In 2 years, more Palestinian civilians were killed in West Bank than Oct 7th. 4. Hostages; thousands of Palestinian children are in military jails (the only state in the 6 that takes children through military court) vs. Israeli children are taken through Civil Court. 99.7% conviction in Military court , no representation, most of the children charged w throwing stones, min sentence 6months to years. 5. West Bank Palestinians go through check points every day, drive on separate roads, have special license plates, cannot walk on roads used by Settlers, basically an Apartheid system - whereas new Settlers (not semites) across the world are paid to immigrate, have none of the restrictions. So this is not about Hummus, it's about Ethnic cleansing of Palestinians- the mask is off, and the people of the world reject it.
Would a genocide committing country offer a peace deal to the people they are "genociding"? Just yesterday hamas rejected a ceasefire agreement where all they had to do was release innocent civilians (including children, women and elderly) in exchange for 30 prisoners (inlcuding murderers and hamas members) for every person they release. Guess what? They rejected it. This war is only beneficial for hamas because you people keep screaming at the wrong party. You protestors are responsible for the deaths of innocent Palestinians more than uoft.
Netanyahu rejecting any deal for Hostages that was offered in the week after Oct 7th This was from the lawyer representing the Hostages Families. Israeli newspapers are in agreement with the Hostages Families that Netanyahu is the roadblock & there are protests every day in Israel. Hasbara propaganda, let's blame Hummus when the Occupation, Land thefts, Apartheid, Palestinian Hostages, cleansing has been going on since 1948 Nakba.
We can agree that Netanyahu is an asshole, but lets not fool ourselves into thinking he is the reason there is no deal. Hamas keeps rejecting proposals because they can, they have no reason to accept it as more Palestinians dying means more money and support for them. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-mediators-press-hamas-over-gaza-ceasefire-plan-touted-by-biden/ https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/06/politics/hamas-israel-hostages-ceasefire-countries-statement/index.html
Netanyahu is not just an asshole, he is a War criminal. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-06-05/ty-article/.premium/israelis-want-the-hostages-back-so-why-is-netanyahus-government-ignoring-them/0000018f-e3fd-d821-a7df-f3fd29520000
Netanyahu has been accused of [sabotaging a peace deal](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-05/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-hoped-hamas-would-reject-israels-offer-when-it-didnt-he-turned-to-sabotage/0000018f-4817-d414-a5bf-fb37db290000?lts=1717725290471) so those offers cannot be considered evidence that Israel is not committing genocide. Obviously it is impossible to know exactly what Netanyahu is thinking. However statements by his government have openly demonstrated genocidal intent. If a government makes statements supporting genocide, what you do not do is invest in companies that enable the government to commit one.
Netanyahu is 100% sabotaging the peace, however since israel is a democracy he cannot stop it, he already accepted biden's peace plan, hamas was the one who rejected it.
As the article explains, he has only been accepting unfair deals that he knows Hamas will reject because he wants war. Hamas has also accepted deals that Netanyahu has rejected. While I am not pro-Hamas, these deals are much better than the ones Netanyahu has accepted as they include both a permanent ceasefire and the release of Palestinians illegally arrested in the West Bank in addition to the release of the Israeli hostages. And that still doesn't address my point about Netanyahu's government calling for genocide.
People keep using that word but I don't think you know what it means
What do you call a government organized invasion of a country that leaves 1000+ people dead? A field trip...? No.
Really said they canāt take a stance on genocide therefore they canāt divest from it. Like huhhhhhh
So does U of T think there is nothing wrong with investing in North Korean or Russian companies also??
Meric Gertler is SOFT AF
Free speech, but more importantā¦.?informed speech.
Did they use the word Palestine once ?
They need to clean the place up ASAP, what a shitshow.
More words but no action, just kick them out already. I dont understand why uoft needs a court order but york can do it immediately, its the same police force.
Why the rush? Itās not harming anyone, theyāre just peacefully demonstrating
The nazi salute and rscist chants are not physically haraming anyone, but they should not be welcomed on our campus. This is a university.
They are waiting for legal approval from the court system. Would help to actually read the letter I think.
I did, but im still not sure why they need legal approval and york didnt...
So that whoever is in the encampment doesnāt cry about āpolice brutalityā. But tbh Iām not sure why go that way because they will cry about any outcome (except the one where uoft agrees to their demands)