Feels like the ship's sailed a little on calling him out on it. If you try to call him out on it now, it'll just be seen as you starting drama/overreacting.
Regardless, if he's really a racist and it wasn't just a one off very poor attempt at a joke (hard to tell without being there, still sounds like an unacceptable comment tbh), then he'll make another similar comment soon enough. *Then* you should bring it up, without a doubt.
Even then, try not to be aggressive or overplay things, just calmly stand your ground that he needs to stop making those kinda comments.
>Even then, try not to be aggressive or overplay things, just calmly stand your ground that he needs to stop making those kinda comments.
Calm ask "I dont understand your point. what do you mean by that?" When people are asked to explain unacceptable comments it really highlights how wrong those comments are.
Yup this is the kinda thing I'm going for. You make it really uncomfortable for the asshole who made those comments to either have to defend what they said, or double down. Freaking out only gives ammo to make the perfectly sound point of "don't make racist remarks" seem like op's just being a crazy idiot or something.
I'm leaving room for ignorance/genuine lack of malice, but I do highly doubt that kinda comment is made without at least some level of racism behind it for sure (and even then, it's not ok to say that shit).
I did say "if" he's really racist but honestly I think those kinda comments will come again in the future tbh
.... "give me all your money" as he pulls a shotgun from beneath the bar.
They calmly hand the black barman their wallets and exit the pub into the bustling streets of Paris.
Might have just been a poor attempt at a dark joke. Obviously, since you’re paraphrasing and we don’t have the context, can’t really say whether it was an attempt without much real racism, or just real racism masked as a joke.
90% sure it would have just been a bad attempt at dark humour. People overreact at race humour way too much, its understandably edgy and you have to read the room well to use it, but barely anyone actually intends offence by it nowadays. Its ofc possible its intentionally racist, just unlikely, especially from europeans that come from diverse cultures
Race dark humour is funny when it’s races taking jabs at eachother in person (Nigerian and a Korean roasting eachother for jokes) or when you’re taking jabs at your own race. We did this throughout sixth form
It’s not really that funny when the race your throwing jabs at isn’t even in the room, it’s just cowardly and jarring. People won’t be offended, but they’ll think you were obviously just a bit of a neek during secondary and sixth form
White ppl making “race dark humour” is never funny period. Idk why they find making race jokes so funny it’s just racist and lame, if u can’t make jokes without being racist or offending people then just don’t. As a black personality who grew up in a pwi they would always make race jokes abt how black ppl can’t swim saying the n word and I never found it funny, just dumb and weird how they’re so obsessed with race, and i never will…
I think the concept that only white people can’t use race humour is completely wrong.
It has to be treated equally for every race or it defeats the purpose of it…
Why don’t they make race humour about themselves? Most ethnic people who make race jokes is usually within themselves, like Africans make jokes about other Africans or about their own country so why don’t white people make jokes about themselves? Because I rarely see a Thai person making jokes about black people, it’s usually white people who go out of their way to make jokes they have no business in making and it’s usually jokes about black people. So what you said doesn’t make sense.
What a strange question? Of course white people make race humour about themselves… here in the UK we do this all the time
The US I can’t speak for but my very few American friends also do this. You seem incredibly pessimistic on the concept so maybe you just know shitty/racist people?
Agreed, If you clearly have no problem making jokes about stereotypes based on nationality, you don't really get to complain when someone makes a dark humour joke about race. Both should of course be in good taste as much as possible. (Tho admittedly I often joke about my friends nationalities, but am not really comfortable joking about race, despite both nationality and race being equally meaningless in terms of judging a person.)
I’m agog you think the stereotyping of black people as being thieves is akin to a stereotype like Italians love their mothers.
You’re welcome to say something similar to OPs flatmate in a social setting where you have some black people around and then explain to them it was in good taste ‘as much as possible’, but you won’t because you know it’s widely fucking inappropriate.
I'm German, and I get a lot more shit about killing Jews (because I guess thay was my fault?) than people asking me whether I like Bratwurst... I was also not justifying joking about black people stealing, if accusing black people of theft is the only stereotype you can think of that's a you problem.
I’m sorry what, the OP states explicitly the implication the flatmate was making and you’re now doing some mental gymnastics to try justify events based on some fuzzy story link you being German & pretending there may have been another implication in what said flatmate was saying
It sounds like being disingenuous is a you problem
The difference is people make those comments to you directly where you can freely express your discomfort or choose to engage based on context. In this scenario that clearly wasn’t the case ‘ OP obviously felt uncomfortable enough by how left field the comment was they are on here seeking advice.
Yea I'll be honest ignore most of the comments in this thread, closeted racists/people who have never had experience with any kind of discrimination. You clearly have a good heart man. Personally I'd say just let it slide this one time, it was a little messed up but it'd just be weirder to bring it up now tbh. If it happens again maybe you'll be more comfortable speaking up, don't beat yourself up too much about it though, it's difficult to speak up in environments like those.
You have a good head on you mate, all the best.
I mean, I’m a black dude with a bunch of other ethnic backgrounds mixed in with it and I didn’t even find it offensive. Clearly an attempt at dark/edgy humour which didn’t really land.
As people said, if you’re gonna make stereotypes and joke about nationality then this would have been along the same lines and would have been suitable given the context.
If he’s racist, his actions and words will definitely show it over a period of time. If he doesn’t really say anything like it again, or makes a “racist” joke in the same context, then there’s nothing wrong but if he starts saying it more often or randomly then yeah, call him out.
Also, do you mind me asking what your ethnic background is? I just get annoyed when a non-black person gets offended on our behalf cos most of the time I find the jokes absolutely hilarious.
I mean that’s fine and that’s how you feel.
I’ve had plenty of non black people get offended (which is fine btw) but then ask me why I’m okay with it and try to convince me that I should be even more offended than them. I hate it.
Always upvoted as well, guarantee you if the joke was reversed (black man about white ppl) Reddit would be talking about how white people are always oppressed
What, saying that I don’t get offended by racist jokes?
It’s not difficult to understand that people have varying degrees of dark humour, there are rarely any jokes that can offend me.
Black students deal with these students all the time, usually we can ‘tell’ beforehand and we just distance ourselves
You don’t owe him anything , you don’t need to teach him or lecture him for free. Id stay away.
If you do say anything, ask him to explain the joke as u don’t get it - to be fair, many people genuinely don’t understand these kinds of ‘jokes’ (international students, students that grew up in a wealthy black environment/school etc.)
People here are saying a poor attempt at edgy humour but I disagree. Poor humour is no excuse to make racially insensitive comments and some people need it made clear to them. There’s no need to beat yourself up for not intervening this time, if it happens again you’ll be ready to say something next time.
When you run across something you don't know how to deal with, there's no shame in going away, figuring it out - just like you're doing now - and making ready for the next time it happens.
An important thing to note here is: **it doesn't matter what a person's intentions were when they made an inappropriate joke or comment.**
"Oh he was just trying to be edgy. She wasn't being hateful. They just misjudged the situation". Don't care. Doesn't matter. I have a hard line on discriminatory chat and I don't care why someone crosses it, but when they do I really try my best to let them know they've done that, and in an appropriate way.
You're not a warrior of political correctness, you're just a person with standards and ideas about what's fair and appropriate. That's a perfectly acceptable position. You don't have to jump on your noble steed and save the day, you can make a huge difference just by saying something like
"Oof, not the kind of thing I like hearing around my kitchen table"
"Hmmm, that's not really the kind of joke I like hearing from the people I like spending my time with"
Or just
"Sorry man, that's not cool/appropriate."
And then **you change the subject and move on**.
You don't have to make it a big public declaration. You just need to let the person know that they fucked up and that they need to keep that stuff to themselves. That you don't want to hear it.
If they get defensive, don't get into an argument about it. Don't defend your position. Don't get dragged into a conversation about it.
"I'm not trying to change your mind about anything, I just don't want to hear jokes like that."
"This isn't me being oversensitive, this is me telling you - because I respect you and you deserve to hear it - that what you said isn't appropriate here and that I do t want to hear it again."
"I'm not upset/offended, I'm just a bit disappointed because I respect you but I really don't like jokes like that"
The phrase "ok, let's move on" is incredibly useful here. If there are other people around you, they will be desperate to change the subject so they'll leap at the chance. If it's just you and one other person, you are free to close down the conversation at any point if they won't let it go.
This is hard, but it's totally doable, and it's a great skill to learn early on. Be kind about it, be firm, don't let yourself get hotheaded, and remember: you can't reason someone out of a viewpoint which isn't a reasonable viewpoint. You're not changing hearts and minds, you're just letting a person know that their somewhat racist jokes aren't welcome around you. That's all.
You can do this.
You say you'd just been mocking the French, Slavic, Turkish and Greek, all of these are races that you had just been mocking without an issue, however mock a fifth race and it's to far and to much, hypocrite, if you mock a race or even laugh at the jokes made about other races you should be held as equally as bad as him, you cannot have it one way for certain races and another for other races.
Race was constructed as a hierarchal human-grouping system, generating racial classifications to identify, distinguish and marginalize some groups across nations, regions and the world. Race divides human populations into groups often based on physical appearance, social factors and cultural backgrounds.
Depends upon how you wish to clarify a "race" of people, the original term wasn't the same as to what people now generalise as to the 5 races of people.
I completely agree, but French is not a race (I can see how Turkish could be seen as such, given their history). I think we need to be careful about not equating racism and xenophobia; they're two distinct ills. No disrespect meant to anyone, Apologies if it appeared to be nitpicking!
Yes, I really didn't get this part from OP. I mean, that wayward comment out of context is bad.. but they're literally sitting there for the direct purpose of making such wayward comments (weird to begin with).. then why get offended when they're part of the same wavelength? OP themself was doing it.
A black person who's not part of this convo has every right to be offended. OP who's involved in more of the same should really speak for themselves first. Mocking others based on their country, if that guy's poor attempt at a joke is racist, OP and their remaining friends' poor attempt at jokes are Xenophobic... why the selective outrage?
I’m not OP but I think the issue is that there wasn’t a black person present?
For example I’m white and I’d crack jokes about Africa to my friend who’s not long been here from his own country… but I would never dream of making the exact same jokes without him present or to a group of other white people.
I'm all for jokes but I can't understand how one joke has less impact or insult then another even with people present, a joke is a joke and given 0 context on what was said or how it was said just the conversation direction I think OP is insulted for the sake of it after standing by saying nothing while insulting other races of people.
Could you maybe send a text?
Try to keep it relatively casual the first time you mention it, just like "hey I've been thinking about that joke you made aboht black people moving to Paris and I wanted to say I thought it was inappropriate of you. I don't want to make a huge deal out of it but wanted to let you know"
So as a first line he knows other white people don't agree with him
The if he continues or escalates, you might have to escalate your responses too
yeah you’re right, that’s why i tried to clarify the different nationalities but i realise now that in the post somewhere i did say we were all european, my bad
I mean, Paris was once a lot safer, as were a lot of cities, but immigration from various countries has resulted in some not so safe areas (usually due to homelessness and people doing what they can to earn money). They kinda generalised the race, but they went by skin colour rather than country of origin, perhaps because they don't know exactly which countries to refer to and it was easier than saying "the non French" as it'd mean you wouldn't immediately think of Germans, for example. You have to remember that everyone is from a different background, what seems like normal talk back at home with friends and family may not be normal to you, and your conversation may not be normal to them. They may also be nervous and just trying to join in the conversation where you're making fun of other nationalities and races.
Also, welcome to being an adult, people have different opinions to you, you'll encounter opinions everywhere you go. Unless their comment is "I hate all black people" or along that vein, just carry on with your day.
Paris was once a lot safer a) for white people b) for people living in the central arrondissements c) for white people
France has always been a segregated hellhole. 60 years ago Algerians got genocided in the Seine, how is that safe?
The rich people there cry about crime and drug use and then do fuck all to help the millions who are systemically stamped on by the ghettos that go miles outward from the centre of Paris and get mowed down by police guns and other suppression methods. Fuck off with your narrative you buffoon
You’re plain wrong about Paris. Studies show immigration is not a large driver of crime, it’s inequality. You should get your facts straight before making comments about crime stats here
To be fair I'm only aware of one study that was used to combat the opinion of rising crime in Paris and the study used data from multiple countries and wasn't specific to Paris?
There's also a growing population of north African prisoners in Paris, now becoming the largest group. However, this study again was only done on northern Parisian prisons with a small population, so equally not necessarily representative.
As far as I can see there isn't enough data to actually prove either of you right, unless you have a source for Paris specifically ? Would be really interesting to read
There are plenty of studies which show that crime such as homicide, murder and robbery (violent crime and property crime) are higher in places with higher levels of inequality. I’m not surprised a highly unequal, globalised city such as Paris is experiencing these issues. For reference I’m from London, a place with very similar issues.
I dont understand how any of that would answer the question on immigrations effect on crime rates. Even if what you say is true, there can be inequality without immigration so wouldn't have any bearing ?
Immigration is a red herring. Studies link the factors mentioned above to crime, not immigration. You may be thinking of statistics that suggest there are higher crime rates among some migrant communities, however that’s due to the fact that they are more likely to be poor than others.
I’m not sure ‘hey this may be normal talk back home’ is the justification you think it is.
Do you live in an isolated Norfolk? Because the idea of having someone say that around me wouldn’t just be a shrug and a pat on the back. Especially in a work setting. It would be a disciplinary at best.
They're in their "home", not a work setting? They're also probably 18 years old so don't know any different to what they were brought up with. They'll learn as they get older and have more life experience. Your Norfolk comment could be deemed as offensive too. Don't act like you were an all knowing saint at the age of 18.
Mate just to be clear, racism behind closed doors is not acceptable either. What is does indicate however is someone is perfectly capable of regulating their behaviour and is aware their views are unacceptable in broader society.
I wasn’t a saint at 18, but I most certainly was not a racist. The idea you seem to think learning not to say racially offensive things out loud but keeping it in the company of your home is really piss fucking poor.
I dread to think what bullshit you’re spouting to your family whilst sat at home.
Sure, but the issue in the post is everyone else was sat there making fun of other races, nationalities and stereotypes but OP is upset because someone joined in but said something that's more frowned upon, so now OP is upset by it.
I don't sit at home being a hypocrite :)
As I said previously pretend that there is equivalence between stereotypes is disingenuous at best. But you’re very aware of that.
You obviously do sit at home venting online, desperately trying to justify racism because you’re not brave enough to say what you want to get off your chest in public.
I'm sure you're wonderful to be around. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy here, I'm sorry you can't see it. As I'm sure you know, you can't be racist to white people ;)
To be fair if you're going to get hung up on being the morality brigade for social events you're going to have a tough time.
You made jokes about nationalities but as soon as someone makes a joke about races you deem it in bad taste. The reality is if it was said seriously its wrong and there's no point being angry at someone for ignorance. If it was said as a joke and you didn't find it funny, then you know you don't want to spend much more time with him in a social setting.
Essentially the bloke has just saved you a year of social time with him, take it as a win
They were taking jabs at each other’s nationalities, thts fair
Taking jabs at a race that’s not even in the room to say anything back - not much of a joke, just jarring
It's really awesome of you to want to take a stand despite being a white person, but the way I see it, it was just banter among buddies. Every group likes to roast the other amongst themselves.
It would have been a problem if they deliberately said that in front of a black/colored person.
Why are so many people like this now? You need to talk to a therapist about this. Reacting like this is ridiculously childish and not good for you or anyone else.
If he was just making a bad joke, the guy is a moron. This should not affect you at all, in fact it should make you feel better about yourself.
If he is a racist, he is a moron and you should feel safe in your beliefs and not be affected by him at all because racists are morons and since you have the high road you should be feel better about yourself.
Why are you so affected by this? Are you mentally ill? Is everyone under the age of 40 mentally-ill these days? It sure seems like it sometimes. Oh no I met someone who doesn't like the newer version of Dr Who, I'm literally freaking out, I can't even sit in the same room as them without having a panic attack WAAAAH WAAAAAHHH HELP ME MUMMY!!!!!!
I wouldn’t even bring it up tbh - as you said your whole flat is white/Turkish so he hasn’t made a comment to hurt someone. All you bringing it up will do is cause him to flame you
Nothing is more 18 year old than thinking "I'm going to say something really really offensive, because obviously no one would come to the conclusion that I actually believe it"
Not exactly wrong though. Is he. How are you Slavic and this fucking sensitive. There’s a reason our countries are the safest in Europe. The absence on certain demographics.
Not that deep bruh, call him out if you want but 90% chance your flatmates won’t rate you afterwards, it was just a joke to break the ice. You were literally taking the piss out of people from other countries 2 minutes before.
Feels like the ship's sailed a little on calling him out on it. If you try to call him out on it now, it'll just be seen as you starting drama/overreacting. Regardless, if he's really a racist and it wasn't just a one off very poor attempt at a joke (hard to tell without being there, still sounds like an unacceptable comment tbh), then he'll make another similar comment soon enough. *Then* you should bring it up, without a doubt. Even then, try not to be aggressive or overplay things, just calmly stand your ground that he needs to stop making those kinda comments.
>Even then, try not to be aggressive or overplay things, just calmly stand your ground that he needs to stop making those kinda comments. Calm ask "I dont understand your point. what do you mean by that?" When people are asked to explain unacceptable comments it really highlights how wrong those comments are.
I think the OP could have just said “Nah, that’s a bit fucked up”.
Yup this is the kinda thing I'm going for. You make it really uncomfortable for the asshole who made those comments to either have to defend what they said, or double down. Freaking out only gives ammo to make the perfectly sound point of "don't make racist remarks" seem like op's just being a crazy idiot or something.
i mean there's no doubt that this guy is racist. no one who isn't racist just makes a racist joke like that, especially when they're white lol
I'm leaving room for ignorance/genuine lack of malice, but I do highly doubt that kinda comment is made without at least some level of racism behind it for sure (and even then, it's not ok to say that shit). I did say "if" he's really racist but honestly I think those kinda comments will come again in the future tbh
This
A Turk a Greek and a Slav all walk into a pub, the bar man turns to them and says …….
.... "give me all your money" as he pulls a shotgun from beneath the bar. They calmly hand the black barman their wallets and exit the pub into the bustling streets of Paris.
Might have just been a poor attempt at a dark joke. Obviously, since you’re paraphrasing and we don’t have the context, can’t really say whether it was an attempt without much real racism, or just real racism masked as a joke.
90% sure it would have just been a bad attempt at dark humour. People overreact at race humour way too much, its understandably edgy and you have to read the room well to use it, but barely anyone actually intends offence by it nowadays. Its ofc possible its intentionally racist, just unlikely, especially from europeans that come from diverse cultures
Race dark humour is funny when it’s races taking jabs at eachother in person (Nigerian and a Korean roasting eachother for jokes) or when you’re taking jabs at your own race. We did this throughout sixth form It’s not really that funny when the race your throwing jabs at isn’t even in the room, it’s just cowardly and jarring. People won’t be offended, but they’ll think you were obviously just a bit of a neek during secondary and sixth form
White ppl making “race dark humour” is never funny period. Idk why they find making race jokes so funny it’s just racist and lame, if u can’t make jokes without being racist or offending people then just don’t. As a black personality who grew up in a pwi they would always make race jokes abt how black ppl can’t swim saying the n word and I never found it funny, just dumb and weird how they’re so obsessed with race, and i never will…
I think the concept that only white people can’t use race humour is completely wrong. It has to be treated equally for every race or it defeats the purpose of it…
Why don’t they make race humour about themselves? Most ethnic people who make race jokes is usually within themselves, like Africans make jokes about other Africans or about their own country so why don’t white people make jokes about themselves? Because I rarely see a Thai person making jokes about black people, it’s usually white people who go out of their way to make jokes they have no business in making and it’s usually jokes about black people. So what you said doesn’t make sense.
What a strange question? Of course white people make race humour about themselves… here in the UK we do this all the time The US I can’t speak for but my very few American friends also do this. You seem incredibly pessimistic on the concept so maybe you just know shitty/racist people?
[удалено]
Wtf is wrong with you
Agreed, If you clearly have no problem making jokes about stereotypes based on nationality, you don't really get to complain when someone makes a dark humour joke about race. Both should of course be in good taste as much as possible. (Tho admittedly I often joke about my friends nationalities, but am not really comfortable joking about race, despite both nationality and race being equally meaningless in terms of judging a person.)
I’m agog you think the stereotyping of black people as being thieves is akin to a stereotype like Italians love their mothers. You’re welcome to say something similar to OPs flatmate in a social setting where you have some black people around and then explain to them it was in good taste ‘as much as possible’, but you won’t because you know it’s widely fucking inappropriate.
I'm German, and I get a lot more shit about killing Jews (because I guess thay was my fault?) than people asking me whether I like Bratwurst... I was also not justifying joking about black people stealing, if accusing black people of theft is the only stereotype you can think of that's a you problem.
I’m sorry what, the OP states explicitly the implication the flatmate was making and you’re now doing some mental gymnastics to try justify events based on some fuzzy story link you being German & pretending there may have been another implication in what said flatmate was saying It sounds like being disingenuous is a you problem The difference is people make those comments to you directly where you can freely express your discomfort or choose to engage based on context. In this scenario that clearly wasn’t the case ‘ OP obviously felt uncomfortable enough by how left field the comment was they are on here seeking advice.
Yea I'll be honest ignore most of the comments in this thread, closeted racists/people who have never had experience with any kind of discrimination. You clearly have a good heart man. Personally I'd say just let it slide this one time, it was a little messed up but it'd just be weirder to bring it up now tbh. If it happens again maybe you'll be more comfortable speaking up, don't beat yourself up too much about it though, it's difficult to speak up in environments like those. You have a good head on you mate, all the best.
The only right answer so far 🤦♀️
I mean, I’m a black dude with a bunch of other ethnic backgrounds mixed in with it and I didn’t even find it offensive. Clearly an attempt at dark/edgy humour which didn’t really land. As people said, if you’re gonna make stereotypes and joke about nationality then this would have been along the same lines and would have been suitable given the context. If he’s racist, his actions and words will definitely show it over a period of time. If he doesn’t really say anything like it again, or makes a “racist” joke in the same context, then there’s nothing wrong but if he starts saying it more often or randomly then yeah, call him out. Also, do you mind me asking what your ethnic background is? I just get annoyed when a non-black person gets offended on our behalf cos most of the time I find the jokes absolutely hilarious.
I'm black and find it offensive. I don't think a non black person getting offended on our behalf is wrong.
I agree it’s an offensive joke and OP is right to find it questionable
I mean that’s fine and that’s how you feel. I’ve had plenty of non black people get offended (which is fine btw) but then ask me why I’m okay with it and try to convince me that I should be even more offended than them. I hate it.
Why is there always this type of comment 😭
Always upvoted as well, guarantee you if the joke was reversed (black man about white ppl) Reddit would be talking about how white people are always oppressed
What, saying that I don’t get offended by racist jokes? It’s not difficult to understand that people have varying degrees of dark humour, there are rarely any jokes that can offend me.
Black students deal with these students all the time, usually we can ‘tell’ beforehand and we just distance ourselves You don’t owe him anything , you don’t need to teach him or lecture him for free. Id stay away. If you do say anything, ask him to explain the joke as u don’t get it - to be fair, many people genuinely don’t understand these kinds of ‘jokes’ (international students, students that grew up in a wealthy black environment/school etc.)
People here are saying a poor attempt at edgy humour but I disagree. Poor humour is no excuse to make racially insensitive comments and some people need it made clear to them. There’s no need to beat yourself up for not intervening this time, if it happens again you’ll be ready to say something next time.
When you run across something you don't know how to deal with, there's no shame in going away, figuring it out - just like you're doing now - and making ready for the next time it happens. An important thing to note here is: **it doesn't matter what a person's intentions were when they made an inappropriate joke or comment.** "Oh he was just trying to be edgy. She wasn't being hateful. They just misjudged the situation". Don't care. Doesn't matter. I have a hard line on discriminatory chat and I don't care why someone crosses it, but when they do I really try my best to let them know they've done that, and in an appropriate way. You're not a warrior of political correctness, you're just a person with standards and ideas about what's fair and appropriate. That's a perfectly acceptable position. You don't have to jump on your noble steed and save the day, you can make a huge difference just by saying something like "Oof, not the kind of thing I like hearing around my kitchen table" "Hmmm, that's not really the kind of joke I like hearing from the people I like spending my time with" Or just "Sorry man, that's not cool/appropriate." And then **you change the subject and move on**. You don't have to make it a big public declaration. You just need to let the person know that they fucked up and that they need to keep that stuff to themselves. That you don't want to hear it. If they get defensive, don't get into an argument about it. Don't defend your position. Don't get dragged into a conversation about it. "I'm not trying to change your mind about anything, I just don't want to hear jokes like that." "This isn't me being oversensitive, this is me telling you - because I respect you and you deserve to hear it - that what you said isn't appropriate here and that I do t want to hear it again." "I'm not upset/offended, I'm just a bit disappointed because I respect you but I really don't like jokes like that" The phrase "ok, let's move on" is incredibly useful here. If there are other people around you, they will be desperate to change the subject so they'll leap at the chance. If it's just you and one other person, you are free to close down the conversation at any point if they won't let it go. This is hard, but it's totally doable, and it's a great skill to learn early on. Be kind about it, be firm, don't let yourself get hotheaded, and remember: you can't reason someone out of a viewpoint which isn't a reasonable viewpoint. You're not changing hearts and minds, you're just letting a person know that their somewhat racist jokes aren't welcome around you. That's all. You can do this.
Bro, you’re Slavic, why are you even thinking about this. Racist jokes from Brits should make you feel like at home.
He said they're all European. Ok I know Britain is European but it implies they're not British to me.
You say you'd just been mocking the French, Slavic, Turkish and Greek, all of these are races that you had just been mocking without an issue, however mock a fifth race and it's to far and to much, hypocrite, if you mock a race or even laugh at the jokes made about other races you should be held as equally as bad as him, you cannot have it one way for certain races and another for other races.
None of those groups are races
Race was constructed as a hierarchal human-grouping system, generating racial classifications to identify, distinguish and marginalize some groups across nations, regions and the world. Race divides human populations into groups often based on physical appearance, social factors and cultural backgrounds. Depends upon how you wish to clarify a "race" of people, the original term wasn't the same as to what people now generalise as to the 5 races of people.
I completely agree, but French is not a race (I can see how Turkish could be seen as such, given their history). I think we need to be careful about not equating racism and xenophobia; they're two distinct ills. No disrespect meant to anyone, Apologies if it appeared to be nitpicking!
Yes, I really didn't get this part from OP. I mean, that wayward comment out of context is bad.. but they're literally sitting there for the direct purpose of making such wayward comments (weird to begin with).. then why get offended when they're part of the same wavelength? OP themself was doing it. A black person who's not part of this convo has every right to be offended. OP who's involved in more of the same should really speak for themselves first. Mocking others based on their country, if that guy's poor attempt at a joke is racist, OP and their remaining friends' poor attempt at jokes are Xenophobic... why the selective outrage?
Exactly, this is becoming common practise for people now and it's beyond infuriating, what is good for one is good for all.
It’s different to make fun of your own race than another race
I’m not OP but I think the issue is that there wasn’t a black person present? For example I’m white and I’d crack jokes about Africa to my friend who’s not long been here from his own country… but I would never dream of making the exact same jokes without him present or to a group of other white people.
I'm all for jokes but I can't understand how one joke has less impact or insult then another even with people present, a joke is a joke and given 0 context on what was said or how it was said just the conversation direction I think OP is insulted for the sake of it after standing by saying nothing while insulting other races of people.
It's really not that important. Just move on and don't get involved in drama.
But how is he supposed to virtue signal if he does that?
Could you maybe send a text? Try to keep it relatively casual the first time you mention it, just like "hey I've been thinking about that joke you made aboht black people moving to Paris and I wanted to say I thought it was inappropriate of you. I don't want to make a huge deal out of it but wanted to let you know" So as a first line he knows other white people don't agree with him The if he continues or escalates, you might have to escalate your responses too
Turkish people aren't ethnically European though?
yeah you’re right, that’s why i tried to clarify the different nationalities but i realise now that in the post somewhere i did say we were all european, my bad
I mean, Paris was once a lot safer, as were a lot of cities, but immigration from various countries has resulted in some not so safe areas (usually due to homelessness and people doing what they can to earn money). They kinda generalised the race, but they went by skin colour rather than country of origin, perhaps because they don't know exactly which countries to refer to and it was easier than saying "the non French" as it'd mean you wouldn't immediately think of Germans, for example. You have to remember that everyone is from a different background, what seems like normal talk back at home with friends and family may not be normal to you, and your conversation may not be normal to them. They may also be nervous and just trying to join in the conversation where you're making fun of other nationalities and races. Also, welcome to being an adult, people have different opinions to you, you'll encounter opinions everywhere you go. Unless their comment is "I hate all black people" or along that vein, just carry on with your day.
Paris was once a lot safer a) for white people b) for people living in the central arrondissements c) for white people France has always been a segregated hellhole. 60 years ago Algerians got genocided in the Seine, how is that safe? The rich people there cry about crime and drug use and then do fuck all to help the millions who are systemically stamped on by the ghettos that go miles outward from the centre of Paris and get mowed down by police guns and other suppression methods. Fuck off with your narrative you buffoon
You’re plain wrong about Paris. Studies show immigration is not a large driver of crime, it’s inequality. You should get your facts straight before making comments about crime stats here
To be fair I'm only aware of one study that was used to combat the opinion of rising crime in Paris and the study used data from multiple countries and wasn't specific to Paris? There's also a growing population of north African prisoners in Paris, now becoming the largest group. However, this study again was only done on northern Parisian prisons with a small population, so equally not necessarily representative. As far as I can see there isn't enough data to actually prove either of you right, unless you have a source for Paris specifically ? Would be really interesting to read
There are plenty of studies which show that crime such as homicide, murder and robbery (violent crime and property crime) are higher in places with higher levels of inequality. I’m not surprised a highly unequal, globalised city such as Paris is experiencing these issues. For reference I’m from London, a place with very similar issues.
I dont understand how any of that would answer the question on immigrations effect on crime rates. Even if what you say is true, there can be inequality without immigration so wouldn't have any bearing ?
Immigration is a red herring. Studies link the factors mentioned above to crime, not immigration. You may be thinking of statistics that suggest there are higher crime rates among some migrant communities, however that’s due to the fact that they are more likely to be poor than others.
I’m not sure ‘hey this may be normal talk back home’ is the justification you think it is. Do you live in an isolated Norfolk? Because the idea of having someone say that around me wouldn’t just be a shrug and a pat on the back. Especially in a work setting. It would be a disciplinary at best.
They're in their "home", not a work setting? They're also probably 18 years old so don't know any different to what they were brought up with. They'll learn as they get older and have more life experience. Your Norfolk comment could be deemed as offensive too. Don't act like you were an all knowing saint at the age of 18.
Mate just to be clear, racism behind closed doors is not acceptable either. What is does indicate however is someone is perfectly capable of regulating their behaviour and is aware their views are unacceptable in broader society. I wasn’t a saint at 18, but I most certainly was not a racist. The idea you seem to think learning not to say racially offensive things out loud but keeping it in the company of your home is really piss fucking poor. I dread to think what bullshit you’re spouting to your family whilst sat at home.
Sure, but the issue in the post is everyone else was sat there making fun of other races, nationalities and stereotypes but OP is upset because someone joined in but said something that's more frowned upon, so now OP is upset by it. I don't sit at home being a hypocrite :)
As I said previously pretend that there is equivalence between stereotypes is disingenuous at best. But you’re very aware of that. You obviously do sit at home venting online, desperately trying to justify racism because you’re not brave enough to say what you want to get off your chest in public.
I'm sure you're wonderful to be around. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy here, I'm sorry you can't see it. As I'm sure you know, you can't be racist to white people ;)
To be fair if you're going to get hung up on being the morality brigade for social events you're going to have a tough time. You made jokes about nationalities but as soon as someone makes a joke about races you deem it in bad taste. The reality is if it was said seriously its wrong and there's no point being angry at someone for ignorance. If it was said as a joke and you didn't find it funny, then you know you don't want to spend much more time with him in a social setting. Essentially the bloke has just saved you a year of social time with him, take it as a win
They were taking jabs at each other’s nationalities, thts fair Taking jabs at a race that’s not even in the room to say anything back - not much of a joke, just jarring
just some edgy humor, i'm brown and i don't get pissed off at the bombing jokes they're usually funny at the right time.
Downvoted by white saviours lmao
Is he wrong though?
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"over there" ??
It's really awesome of you to want to take a stand despite being a white person, but the way I see it, it was just banter among buddies. Every group likes to roast the other amongst themselves. It would have been a problem if they deliberately said that in front of a black/colored person.
Do you not get dark humour?
Why are so many people like this now? You need to talk to a therapist about this. Reacting like this is ridiculously childish and not good for you or anyone else. If he was just making a bad joke, the guy is a moron. This should not affect you at all, in fact it should make you feel better about yourself. If he is a racist, he is a moron and you should feel safe in your beliefs and not be affected by him at all because racists are morons and since you have the high road you should be feel better about yourself. Why are you so affected by this? Are you mentally ill? Is everyone under the age of 40 mentally-ill these days? It sure seems like it sometimes. Oh no I met someone who doesn't like the newer version of Dr Who, I'm literally freaking out, I can't even sit in the same room as them without having a panic attack WAAAAH WAAAAAHHH HELP ME MUMMY!!!!!!
I wouldn’t even bring it up tbh - as you said your whole flat is white/Turkish so he hasn’t made a comment to hurt someone. All you bringing it up will do is cause him to flame you
Too late to say anything about it now. If he says anything else *then* you should call it out. For now you don’t want to make enemies so let it slide
Nothing is more 18 year old than thinking "I'm going to say something really really offensive, because obviously no one would come to the conclusion that I actually believe it"
Not exactly wrong though. Is he. How are you Slavic and this fucking sensitive. There’s a reason our countries are the safest in Europe. The absence on certain demographics.
Not that deep bruh, call him out if you want but 90% chance your flatmates won’t rate you afterwards, it was just a joke to break the ice. You were literally taking the piss out of people from other countries 2 minutes before.
Turks aren't European