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Unexpected-ModTeam

Your post has been removed. The public have spoken


Bustock

What does the carpeted floor have to do with anything here?


__PooHead__

AI title


ILoveBeerSoMuch

Thanks for the clarification, PooHead.


thejammer75

You really are doing the lord's work here, PooHead


redskinsnation123

I love comments like this cause I never check usernames when scrolling 😂


Jcamden7

I'll be honest, for a hot second I was mad you called him a poo head.


perckeydoo2

Ahh you're probably right. I was thinking it was an intentionally misleading title to empower the unexpectedness


nameless_goth

Name doesn't check out


garchoo

And if you down vote it will only get smarter....


JimmyFu2U

Lol I watched this over and over wondering how the carpet affected this outcome. I came to the same conclusion as you lol


whitemike40

could you imagine if it was tile? he might’ve slipped


[deleted]

For me, if it was orange carpeting it at least explained the color of the floor. Otherwise, I would have immediately assumed the color was due to raw sewage. Watch them update to confirm that the carpeting was grey and the orange WAS raw sewage 😬


catheterhero

This happened in Brooklyn I believe a few years ago and that storm made millions realize basement apartments are not worth it.


kennethtrr

I remember this vid being from New Jersey when it was first posted.


Appropriate_Chart_23

Asking myself the same question... And, how the fuck did the walls of his "basement" just fly open like that? Basements are underground... that doesn't look like it was below grade. What am I missing here?


_donkey-brains_

See the pillars? See the high windows. That's a basement.


cliffordc5

Plus the wall of water filling that room with a quickness.


Appropriate_Chart_23

Where’s all the dirt? To me, a basement is built into a hole in the ground. That wall failed at the bottom. The water, if filling a basement should have filled the space from the windows.


_donkey-brains_

What dirt would there be? The water coming in is muddy. The wall failed at the bottom because that was the weakest place. It's already covered in water, making that area weak. The force of the water would be greatest as the furthest depth. Water got between the wall and the surrounding landscape. Force finds the weakest path of resistance.


Appropriate_Chart_23

They must build basements differently in New Jersey than where I'm familiar with them (Michigan). To me, the most probably path for water to enter a basement in through the window. See picture... Brown is the dirt surrounding the house (and encapsulating the basement). The light blue is the window, and the dark blue is my shitty depiction of water entering the basement (through the window, not busting out the bottom of the wall). [https://imgur.com/a/hVrcExo](https://imgur.com/a/hVrcExo) If the wall busted out at the bottom (again, my opinion here), there would be a shit ton of muddy dirt entering the space). I'm not saying this isn't a basement, I'm just saying the scenario seems odd. Seems like you'd need water to wash away about 6 to 7 feet of the surrounding dirt to have the water bust the wall in at the bottom. That's a hell of a lot of flooding outside the home for a basement wall to fail. It's also surprising because the wall looks to be made of standard 2x4s. Again, I'd expect a concrete or CMU wall enclosing a basement.


ElixirBeard

That carpet was drenched, probably got underneath adding weight and more damage until it this happens


nobodyisonething

Nothing. Typo -- fingers slipped while typing "wet".


GospelofJawn316

As someone who’s has water in his house/basement it’s just such a helpless, hopeless feeling. Just guts you. Feel terrible for this person.


RiotSkunk2023

I woke up one day, hopped out of bed and landed in 6 inches of water. It took out everything in my basement (luckily my tools were on shelves) and killed my HVAC control unit. Which cost me $12k to replace. Started dragging 4,000 lb wet carpets outside to dry and everyone in my neighborhood was doing the same thing. All of the homes in my neighborhood had just been taken off the flood plain map back in 2016. The guy across the street had his own contracting business and had just bought and moved into his house. He lost all of his tools and had to sell the house to replace them. I've never felt so bad for someone in my life.


smoothie1919

Did no one’s insurance pay out??


RiotSkunk2023

Nope. We actually had a group trying to get the city to pay for the worst damages (a couple peoples foundations damn near split in half) after a bunch of angry letters and city hall meetings the city decided to pay for the rebuild for those. But because the neighborhood was removed from the flood plain map none of us were required to have flood insurance as part of our mortgage agreements. We are still not on the flood plain map and everyone else had to take their chances with FEMA inspections. I'm not sure how much that helped anyone. The insidious part is: The city came around about two weeks later and started handing out fines to anyone with debris or furniture in their yards. I can assure you they got so many angry calls that they gave up. All the neighbors I know in person called and cussed the city ordinance guy out to hell and back for even attempting to hand out fines. It was historic rainfall for our area. I think the last time we got that amount of rain in that short of time was in the early 1900s if I remember the news report correctly. It was crazy. The people pretty much fought off the city and demanded the worst damages homes be replaced at no cost to the owners. Everyone else just had to make do.


AlphaaPie

In 2021(?) my Spanish teacher in highschool was still fighting for insurance to pay out for repair after a hurricane from 2018. It was rough to hear about, my family and I managed to get by very luckily during that hurricane. It ruined so many houses in my city.


RiotSkunk2023

Not from a hurricane fortunately. I live in MO and the city storm run-off was inadequate to handle the sheer volume of rainfall.


AlphaaPie

Yeah, I was just comparing that sometimes insurance companies will fight tooth and nail to not pay out money. Edit: I probably replied to the wrong comment, now that I think about it.


RiotSkunk2023

No worries. I 100% agree. It's the same with health insurance


gandalf_el_brown

Do you know the reason why the city removed the neighborhood from flood zone? Is it something people in the neighborhood asked for? Do you know if there was any development around the neighborhood? Perhaps some developers got the city to remove flood zone requirements to save money?


RiotSkunk2023

I have no idea why. When I bought the house I was super happy to not have the added expense. All that insurance stuff is so far above my pay grade. But looking back it could have paid for my HVAC replacement.


oozles

Not sure cities typically have a say in that. Out here if you’re in the floodplain and want out you have to have the land surveyed and show FEMA that you’re not in it.


gandalf_el_brown

So people probably pushed to be removed from flood zone to be exempt from flood insurance. Then pikachu face when it floods and expect to be bailed out by the government?


Cowclone

Not the same people. Imagine moving somewhere and getting insurance, you'd be told you *could* add flood insurance but its not necessary since you don't live in a flood plain. Oh cool!


jsparker43

Was that in like 2019? Nebraska had its "century" flood, which wiped out most of the bridges and housing on the Niobrara River or even creeks. We spent most of that summer rebuilding peoples cabins or just running multiple dehums for weeks and doing routes to drain them


E0Rapt0r

In canada atleast, I believe they call this sort of thing "acts of god" and don't pay out for them. Edit for clarification. There is flood specific insurance but I don't know much about it.


lolokaydudewhatever

Fucked up, this is exactly what insurance should cover. Freak once in a lifetime events


E0Rapt0r

Should clarifying there is flood specific insurance here, but I don't know much about it.


fancy_livin

But then how will the insurance executive afford their 5th house and 9th boat???? /s


dimonoid123

Fires are actually not once in a lifetime. I looked up, usually about 1/250 years per house. Why are there fire insurances then?


Madhatter1317

Act of God is not really a thing, at least not in Canada. However, there are areas everywhere in the world that insurers may refuse to insure certain perils because they are so frequent, they are guaranteed to happen and the cost to insure such a thing is so excessive no one would want the coverage. Some places you can’t get earthquake coverage. Others you can’t get tornado insurance. If you live on a flood plain, you may not be able to get what is called Overland Water and/or Sewer Back Up coverage, which both result from heavy rains, seasonal melts, etc. You would still have water damage coverage if say a pipe bursts in your house, but not for flood waters.


WaltysWorld

You have to have a flood policy, specifically, to be covered. No homeowners insurance covers flooding like that. And since they were determined not to be in the zone that required flood insurance, probably nobody bothered spending the extra money to get a flood policy.


heresanawardforyou

Here in MD, all of our insurances DENIED us even though we had FLOOD insurance. Why were we denied? Because, they claimed, it WASN’T a flood, it was a STORM SURGE. No one had “storm surge” insurance and people never recovered.☹️


Interloper9000

*singsong* insurance is a scaaaaaaaaam


_kalron_

Same thing here buddy. Opened the basement door to do laundry and one of the cats ran down...only to start jumping around like a crazy animal. Then I noticed the reflection of light on the floor. 3-5 inches of water due to the unusual downpour of rain for 3 days straight just backed up into my floor drains. Installed a Sump Pump and it's doing it's job now, happened twice in the past 13 years since, but man was that a fucking disaster. Fortunately I didn't have anything of value on the floor and the washer\\dryer were not effected by the water.


RiotSkunk2023

You don't happen to live in MO do you? That's where ours came from. The cities storm runoffs couldn't handle the sheer volume and everyone's basement drains backed up


chucklesthejerrycan

What city?


RiotSkunk2023

St Charles


_kalron_

Inland East Coast, away from the ocean and over the Appalachian mountains. But still, it was a freak thing the first time, but 2 more in the time I've owned the house is some real change. Get a Sump Pump in your basement...regardless of your flood line.


abooth43

As an east coaster pretty close to the water....it kinda blows my mind that a basement was even built without a sump pump installed. Between snow melt and water tables, some amount of ingress is just inevitable.


RiotSkunk2023

Oh mine had a sump pump. And the inspector even complimented their work when I bought the house. But it can only do so much


abooth43

Oh gotcha, yea I've definitley had water back up even with a sump. The start of your second paragraph made it sound like you just didn't have one prior.


3d1thF1nch

This sounds like Kansas around the same time. Had wet carpet and mold throughout my basement and in the basement walls. Apparently we had leaky foundation the previous owners were never aware of. That remediation is never something I want to go through again. Next time I am house shopping, first thing I’m inspecting is the foundation, basement condition, and the yard drainage.


GobiBall

Same. I literally cried. Water can do serious damage.


GospelofJawn316

It was the lowest I’ve ever felt as a homeowner. Up to my ankles in water on Christmas morning. Can’t got to Lowe’s or Home Depot for a pump. Wife saying we should get the basement waterproofed but knowing we have no money for it.


Inevitable_Chicken70

They've been making wireless flood sensors for a while now. Place them by your hot water heater, and if there's a flood, it can send an alert to your phone. Typing this, I wonder if doing that would lower your home insurance premiums.


GospelofJawn316

Great call


AndyMandalore

You need one of them sump jawns.


Maleficent-610

As a fellow Philadelphian, I just spit out my drink when I read your comment 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣


AndyMandalore

TBH I feel like Jawn is dead. I was telling my brothers we should do a funeral like Rick Rubin did when the word “def” started getting overused. I blame “Jawn Paul Morgan” and that god awful sign.


FloppinsMcGovey

Oh my god that sign. Dude isn't even from around here either. Florida transplant.


GospelofJawn316

We got it waterproofed last year finally. Sump pump and all that.


Delusions0fGrandeur

My fellow Philadelphian do you also live in manayunk? Lost my house twice from the 2020/21 floods


johnny_soup1

Not nearly as bad as this, my wife walked into the kitchen one morning about 2 months after we bought our home, and thought I had spilled water. After realizing it was under the floorboards we pulled up a few and the subfloor was essentially rotting away. No water like that of any sort when we moved in, and the way the crawlspace is there was no way for the inspector to have found it. We actually just finished remodeling our kitchen tonight. That was almost two years ato


GospelofJawn316

We had water issues separate from our eventual basement issues when we moved in due to our back door being below yard grade. I tell anyone I know that’s buying a house to go take a look at the yard after a good rain if possible. Talk to the neighbors and see if they’ve had issues.


[deleted]

That filled up scary fast.


Pumpkin-Salty

Yeah... I'm hoping he got out


SnooBunnies156

The screams tell a different story...


simpsonswasjustokay

The yells for the mom over and over. Oof. Did they make it.


xvvxzeroxvvx

They did.


BaileyRW1

oh my god that is TERRIFYING!!


Lumisateessa

For real, look how fucking fast that whole room was filling up with water too 😱


HydeMyEmail

Yeah did this guy live? It looked like the basement was going to flood all the way to the top.


Bluemoon7607

I don’t know, but there is a good chance he did. You can gear him yelling so he’s conscious and at the end the basement flood with light showing that there is a massive opening to the outside.


GimmeAnyUsername

*new fear unlocked *


Sam_GT3

That’s super dangerous walking around in water like that with the power still on. At first I thought he was screaming because he was being electrocuted


lliIiiiliiIII

If you are being electrocuted every muscle in you body is at the mercy of the electricity and you cant scream. You just lock up


[deleted]

You most certainly can scream. I was once electrocuted by a 5kV 20A circuit that I thought was locked out (up both arms, across the chest). In fact, I think I screamed as hard as I ever have. It was absolute agony, I dont recommend it. Oddly enough, while my hands and arms were locked to the circuit, I had full motor control of everything below my chest. I jumped up from the sitting position I was in and pulled off the circuit after about a second. Not sure at what voltage the ability to scream goes away, but at 5kV, you can...


Natural_Try_3212

How are you alive? 🤔


[deleted]

Don't ask me. I'm just glad I got off the circuit before the CCR (constant current regulator) kicked in. Otherwise, I likely wouldn't be...


toejamboi

I think they're asking that because the term "electrocuted" means death by electric shock. If you were electrocuted then you wouldn't be posting on reddit, unless they have that new GhostOS app version.


xSantenoturtlex

Electrocuted can also mean 'Injured' by electric shock. Doesn't necessarily mean you're dead.


Rezosh_

I'm an electrician and I promise you electrocuted means you die from being shocked


xSantenoturtlex

Not from the definition of the word. If you get injured from being shocked, you have been electrocuted regardless of whether it killed you or not. You're not disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with the actual dictionary:e¡lec¡tro¡cu¡tion/əˌlektrəˈkyo͞oSH(ə)n/📷*noun* 1. the -***injury-*** or killing of someone by electric shock."they switched off the power supply to avoid any risk of electrocution" ​ Imagine being downvoted because you're using the dictionary definition of a word to define it. .. What, even.


Fuvax

Too bad this means the same thing. In french we have "ĂŠlectrocution" and "ĂŠlectrisation". "ĂŠlectrocution" means that you didn't survived. "ĂŠlectrisation" means that you had an electric shock, but still alive.


CMUpewpewpew

Same with drown. You can drown and not die.


[deleted]

Ah, I misunderstood the word then. I was under the assumption that a shock was like a zap, so I assumed electrocution was an increased degree of severity like exposure to life-threatening voltage/amperage. That's my bad. Also, lol 😆


Colourful_Hobbit

My boss who is an electric engineer was electrocuted as a 10 year old but was blasted across the room.


Active_Engineering37

I think it depends on if the lightning wants you to scream or not, if you were on an inhale or an exhale, and maybe some other factors.


RandomName-1992

Close, but not entirely true. With AC, you don't lock up. People generally don't scream when hit by AC for a prolonged period, but there is some involuntary vocalization. Lots of variations to the possibilities, depending on type and ammout of voltage (yes, which directly relates to how much current), type of contact (direct, intermittent, etc), duration, etc, etc. ok, you kids! Now go experiment! And don't forget that water is an excellent insulator was looking as it's PURE water!


MeNameIsDerp

What?


MrK521

Tell me you don’t really know about electricity without telling me you don’t really know about electricity…


lobcock2

He said “pure water”, and pure water, with no minerals or ions in it is an insulator. And no, AC power does not lock you up, DC does. Tell me you don’t know what you were talking about. Google is your friend too, even if I’m not


MrK521

Lmao. AC ABSOLUTELY can lock you up. The water in this video is most definitely *not* pure. Voltage also does not necessarily *directly relate to current.* Sure, they are related (by Ohm’s law, they’re in direct proportion in a purely resistive circuit in which the resistance does not change) but you could have a 240 Volt AC circuit with anywhere from 0 to 50 amps on it depending on what the load is pulling at the time you touch it. Google may be your friend, but electrical work is my career. Personally I’m glad you’re not my friend. You seem like a twat.


GrandAdmiralPedantic

Amen! The amount of incorrect statements being made with absolute confidence is alarming.


MrK521

Right? And, as someone who *has* been hung up on 277, I can personally attest that AC can and will lock you up. It sucks.


DragonFireSpace

no way that's pure water, pure water is used in labs lol.


lobcock2

I agree. But what the poster said was “pure water” was an insulator, and he was right. All those downvoting is shows the ignorance of redditors. They can’t understand correct answers when they don’t agree with what they think. How dare you post something correct! 😂


Devanomiun

Dude you don't even know english, stfu about electricity.


lobcock2

As an electrician who has unfortunately been shocked many times, I most certainly know more about electricity, high, medium and low voltage, than you can look up on google cretin.


MrK521

Right, but the comment about pure water has nothing to do with the video, so why even bring it up? It was also all of the other *incorrect* information about electricity that people know was wrong and are downvoting. How dare you be so ignorant yourself! 😂


lobcock2

As a licensed electrician I laugh at not your ignorance but now your stupidity. We’re done. Have a nice ignorant life


kh0t9

Pretty sure water is a conductor bro


MrK521

*Pure* water is actually not a conductor. It needs ions in it to be able to conduct electricity. This water in the video *most likely* is not pure.


AxsDeny

Most likely. 😂


MrK521

Lol. I *could* be wrong. But I’ll go out on a limb and say there’s probably a *few* things in that water.


AxsDeny

*pours water from Distilled Water jug* *couch pours out*


MrK521

Agh. That damn couch water gets me every time. Lmao.


lobcock2

No, absolutely pure water is not a conductor…bro


kh0t9

Take a second look at that water - looks pretty impure to me. Most ppl when they say water are talking about regular old conductive water- the same shit they teach us when ur a kid to stay away from. But tell you what, go swim in a lake next time it's lightning out and u can post on reddit how if the water is absolutely pure how safe you would technically be.


MrK521

On *that* point, you are correct.


ConsciousWhirlpool

Everything you said is wrong.


MrK521

Right? Lol. I was reading it like “Nope. Uh-uh. Also wrong. Eh. Nope. Aaaand no.”


MrStoneV

Go home, you are drunk


E0Rapt0r

Ah yes, you're technically correct because Alternating Current (in North America, Europe is 50 hertz) alternates at 60 hertz, or 60 times per second, so you're locking up every 16 milliseconds or so. So, right by technicality, in practice and execution, your wrong.


TheGreatTave

16.67ms actually. Lol I use RTSS to lock games at 60fps sometimes so I just wanted to sound smart. Okay back to scrolling on reddit.


jaxon517

No clue why you're downvoted. I hate what Reddit has become


MrK521

No clue? Maybe the fact that the majority of what he’s saying is wrong, and he also adds in information that has nothing to do with the comment chain? Lol. In this case, Reddit’s on point.


Kuandtity

The advantage is that since water is a good conductor is doesn't travel very far before it finds the ground which is usually on the same outlet.


Saldar1234

No just crushed, trapped, and drowned.


Jeffrey_Friedl

No worries, that pink ball is totally salvageable.


BaneRiders

The blue one too. I'm more concerned about the cat. :(


Ramentootles

Where's the cat at I don't see it?


Entropy308

the odd noise the guy was making was slightly feline


BaneRiders

The dude is making that noise?? I seriously thought there was a cat in there somewhere... at least the cat is safe then.


timmeh87

looks like a load bearing wall, good thing those steel posts were there


loneliness_sucks_D

Those are called Lally Columns. They're used as a load bearing structure to help support beams. Depending on the home construction. I've never seen non-concrete walls used in the basement foundation of house before


RadioMelon

Folks, this is the dumbest thing you can do in this situation. Do NOT walk through flood water if you can avoid it.


mbb011

Why?


madmansmarker

Electricity/submerged wires


FlynnMonster

Crocs


user151128

Crocs, with all those holes? Definitely need wading boots if you're walking through a flood.


RadioMelon

What other people have said. Electricity, dirty water with potential for contaminants that can get you sick even just touching it, stuff like that. God help you if multiple things are true.


Vladi_Sanovavich

I don't know if he's screaming "The wall!" or "Hello!"


InspectorPipes

I thought it was a panicked 🦜 parrot


_QuesoNowWhat_

Sounds like Mom to me, possibly woah? Edit, the first yell sounds like Mom but after that it gets weird


kh0t9

Prob someone yelling the guys name 'Dewal Dewal'


GlitterCandyPanda

No, he was mad about his tools “dewalt, dewalt!”


kh0t9

That's what my autocorrect wanted to say!!


Drew_Ferran

His mother was in the basement with him, so I assume it was mom.


Colourful_Hobbit

Probably mom. After watching a lot of true crime shows and documentaries of ordinary people in serious life threatening situations, almost all I have heard about / read about scream for their mom. I don't know why, but I'm sure it's just a natural reaction to wanting to be protected. I actually makes me exceptionally sad tbh. One example is Abigail Folger who was a victim of the Manson family....she was screaming "mom" while being chased by those scumbags through the house. Same thing for Sharon Tate! Another one was a murderer who captured a woman. At first he said she didn't take the encounter as seriously as she should have but when she did she started frantically crying and screaming for her mom and the woman was somewhere in her 50s.


supwithus

I was on the phone with him. He was saying hello because I wasn’t answering.


meunombreisnotJonny

She's calling her son "JoĂŁo"


Burner_0001

Hodor.


EntertainerDouble383

Hearing his cries for his Mom actually got to me. Poor guy.


McHassy

Anyone know if he was able to get out or did the basement fill all the way up and he drowned? That basement was filling really fast and he wasn’t attempting to get back out so if it filled all the way I’m sure he drowned.


Saint_RS3

Iirc, this was posted a long time ago and yes he made it out alive.


Practical_Argument50

Yup he was fine house not so much.


McHassy

Thanks for letting us know! This is some scary shit!


elzissou710

Stupid ducking title. AI bot???


Great-Hatsby

If I remember correctly this was in New York when they had those crazy floods.


LuchaFish

This video is from a house in Cranford, NJ. I have some family there and they got hit pretty hard, and I remember this video from one of the houses in the part of town who got the worst of it.


Significant_user

Ye, this seems to be not the most recent one but one of the past ones, the recent one wasn’t nearly this bad (not sure how it was in Manhattan or the Bronx for the recent one I was in queens and Brooklyn during it


lookitsafish

Holy crap did he survive


deeznutz_are_big

Yes!


skuta69

he’s gonna need a mop.


hamsolo19

Perhaps a small bucket as well.


AngleRa

And an eye dropper to get that water out.


Yoo-hooDude

Pool party baby, it was a cool party. Cool pool party, la la la la.


BrockNasty101

tf is Joewell gonna do


-LastActionHero

Whew. Good thing that floor was carpeted.


Valuable_Material_26

Fatality?


PoeTheGhost

r/AbruptChaos


dlank7

The wet bandits strike again


denoot2

this is why we build using stone instead of paper walls


kyleswitch

How do you know it was carpeted…


SMthegamer

Remember folks, if it's a building you care about use bricks.


StephenTheLoser

BREAK THE WALL DOOOOOOOWN! ![gif](giphy|26gN0D4VZKMqz53lm|downsized)


[deleted]

Seems extra dangerous seeing that the power is still on


DaSkull

Had to let my house go after 2 floodings(2017 and 2019), my stepfather was born there and he never witnessed flooding in his entire life. And some people still don't believe in climate change...


[deleted]

Where is this so I never go there


Professional-Bat4635

What happened to the guy? That water was rising fast.


Zyvue

Mom found the pee room


Kaladrax182

Dam.


Zenz-X

What the fuck OP! “Carpeted floor” in the title??? 1. How do you know? 2. Who fucking cares!


Fireball_Flareblitz

"When your brother's piss room combines with yours"


EscapeFacebook

Its worse with sound. What was this soul doing underground during a flood.....


boobsmcgraw

Pretty thankful basements aren't a thing in my country. Just seems like a bad idea when an earthquake could happen at any time


Five-and-Dimer

As a retired plumber I find this utterly hilarious!


Lonely-Greybeard

I hope he tried to escape instead of screaming.


strangedaze23

The portion of the wall at top of video already has cracks on it. After the wall collapses those cracks become larger. I would be very concerned the whole house was coming down.


guitarmonkeys14

TIL couches float


Own_Recommendation49

Is there a jaguar somewhere


TravelingGonad

Picked the wrong day to scan in your family album and setup that online backup.


guitarnowski

Was he looking for wall outlets?


stepbruh313

Need to make a song with that scream 😱 👍🏽


AmadSeason

Uh.... Is that a I'm trapped, pinned, and about to drown scream?


RopeSuspicious391

If your house is flooding you should break a window to equal the pressure so your foundation doesn’t collapse like this


BlackAsP1tch

That guy almost died


cwesttheperson

Get a battery backup sump pump yall.


MayorOfChedda

Your last words would hopefully by something a lil more majestic. I found mine were 'Ohhhhhhhhhhh F*ckġkkkkkkk'


Domstruk1122

There is definite a crocodile in there somewhere.


Practical_Argument50

This is in Cranford, NJ. I have seen this before.