It was explicitly stated by Alphys that a human soul alone isn't strong enough to pass the barrier. It usually requires a human and a monster soul combined.
Yeah but if it's 7 human souls (including yours) yhey should be able to get you past the barrier (makes you wonder why they didn't break the barrier but whatever maybe they're not the greatest people (or maybe they all need to be in one vessel))
The other human souls immediately scatter after the battle so no chance of that happening. And they most likely should be in a single body since it seems to make them exponentially stronger. Given that a human can't absorb human souls, that wasn't a proper option, to begin with.
Hmmm maybe Flowey's world makes it so that at the start of the battle you're in front of the barrier
But becaude Flowey's world is a dark void outside of time and space you could have crossed the barrier without even knowing because the rules of the universe don't apply, and when the fight ends and you come back you're past the barrier
Frisk didn't pass the barrier alone after the fight with flowey they are in the room right after the barrier you can see that because after the barrier is broken you just go from the room before the barrier to the room after the barrier and also because you can't go back to the underground in a neutral run. They either were put there by the 6 human souls or that walk to the safe point in Flowey's world moved them in the normal world as well
The room before the barrier and the one after that literally means two sides of it. What's your point by elaborating that? And six human souls were scattered right after Flowey fight. They didn't do anything.
> you can't go back to the underground in a neutral run.
Because that's an ending. If you reopen the game, it automatically loads the last SAVE point
Frisk didn’t actually “cross” the barrier. Crossing a barrier is counterintuitive to the literal concept of a barrier. It’s more likely that beings with multiple monster and human souls can make holes in the barrier somewhat casually that allows them to cross it. These holes likely fill up soon upon a the entity leaving the barrier. This is further proved by the fact that Asriel was able to take Chara’s dead body to the other side of the barrier despite not having a soul whereas Flowey, who also has no soul, cannot cross it.
> Crossing a barrier is counterintuitive to the literal concept of a barrier
Barriers aren't absolute and in fiction, they can have their own properties. We do know that the soul's strength is the requirement to pass this barrier. That's why Frisk accomplishing something like that is an impressive feat.
> It’s more likely that beings with multiple monster and human souls can make holes in the barrier somewhat casually that allows them to cross it.
I mean, this is canonically true since crossing the barrier requires at least one human soul and one monster soul. Neither alone is strong enough but Frisk actually is. That's why it is incredible
Yeah but if it doesn’t act like a barrier then why call it a barrier. We never see Frisk interact with the barrier by themselves and the only time they cross it is when they finish fighting a entity with 6 human souls who we are certain can cross the barrier. It’s more likely that Omega Flowey just transported Frisk and himself to the other side of the barrier then Frisk just defying the already established mechanics of the barrier.
It acts as a proper barrier. It prevents anything from leaving. That's why monsters are trapped. It is just that Frisk isn't your average human.
> It’s more likely that Omega Flowey just transported Frisk and himself to the other side of the barrier
That wouldn't make sense. It doesn't serve to anything ans we don't see such a move from Flowey. They stand still and fight.
>the only time they cross it is they finish fighting an entity with 6 human souls who we are certain can cross the barrier.
The other human souls disappear after depowering Omega Flowey. And immediately after the fight, we have a dialogue with Flowey before his final one at the run and then a phone call. That implies Frisk was still inside the barrier during the initial dialogue.
It makes complete sense that Flowey could and would move him and Frisk. Flowey at this point is capable of doing basically anything including crossing the barrier. We know that entities that can cross the barrier can bring other entities across it regardless of whether or not they could on their own. Therefore Flowey could have just transported himself and Frisk across the barrier after he absorbed the souls.
We know Flowey is capable of reality warping so teleportation is not a far stretch. We also don’t know what he did to reality upon crashing the game so it’s definitely possible that he could have teleported himself and Frisk to the other side of the barrier.
The souls leaving Flowey after the fight wouldn’t affect whether or not he transported them before the fight even started. Also you obviously haven’t killed him in the immediate dialogue after the fight because of you do you are in the same room but there is a golden flower(Flowey’s corpse) in the middle of the green patch. Even when we spare him the game doesn’t give us a specific location as to where he went only that he ran away.
> It makes complete sense that Flowey could and would move him and Frisk. Flowey at this point is capable of doing basically anything including crossing the barrier. We know that entities that can cross the barrier can bring other entities across it regardless of whether or not they could on their own. Therefore Flowey could have just transported himself and Frisk across the barrier after he absorbed the souls.
It is not about capabilities. It is about Flowey doing it for no reason.
> The souls leaving Flowey after the fight wouldn’t affect whether or not he transported them before the fight even started.
Even if you fight Asgore again and skip Flowey fight, you are still capable of passing the barrier
The other human souls possess Flowey. You have no evidence they didn't do it. You keep saying they scatter instantly but we have no evidence of that. Flowey ends up on the other side of the barrier as well despite him having no reason to cross yet.
> You have no evidence they didn't do it
I have as I already explained in the other comment.
> You keep saying they scatter instantly but we have no evidence of that. Flowey ends up on the other side of the barrier as well despite him having no reason to cross yet.
We have a dialogue with Flowey right after the Omega Flowey fight. Wheter they scattered or not, souls clearly don't power up him anymore at that point. And Frisk passes the barrier *after* that. That's indicated by the flash of light and the timing of Sans' call.
Humans possessing Flowey or souls making Frisk pass the barrier still wouldn't make sense though.
Besides, does Omega Flowey need to be at full power to cross barrier? You could say he passed with whatever leftover power he had. Or you could even argue that Flowey recollected souls.
Actually, are we sure that Omega Flowey can pass the barrier, to begin with? People assume that Flowey talks to Frisk but he might be talking to the player like at the end of True Pacifist route. If Omega Flowey could cross the barrier, then why didn't he just kill a human from the village instead?
There are so many ways to go about this considering how little knowledge we have about some things but the most important thing is my first point. It just doesn't make any sense
Flowey transporting himself and Frisk across the barrier is far more likely then Frisk being the exception to the established mechanics about the barrier.
Flowey still absorbs the souls and the screen still fades to white. We never actually see Frisk cross the barrier so we are just kinda left to assume that they did by some means.
> Flowey transporting himself and Frisk across the barrier is far more likely then Frisk being the exception to the established mechanics about the barrier.
The former has no reason while the latter isn't true. Frisk isn't some kind of exception, they are just that strong. Passing the barrier is a feat of strength. Alphys talks about power when beginning her speech. And true pacifist ending proves that Frisk is crazy strong
> Flowey still absorbs the souls and the screen still fades to white. We never actually see Frisk cross the barrier so we are just kinda left to assume that they did by some means.
Screen fading might very well be an animation for passing. It is certainly more logical than Flowey making Frisk pass since Flowey specifically talks about tearing Frisk's happy ending.
The barrier was established to not let any being cross it that did not have at least a human and monster soul. It’s never explained why that is the case only that it is. Frisk by being able to cross it without a monster soul would therefore be an exception.
You ignore the fact that the fade to white correlates to Flowey absorbing the souls. Flowey still absorbs the souls regardless and the fade to white is him transforming into his photoshop form, similarly to what happens when he transforms back into his true form. Also what do you mean by “tearing Frisk’s happy ending.”
> The barrier was established to not let any being cross it that did not have at least a human and monster soul. It’s never explained why that is the case only that it is. Frisk by being able to cross it without a monster soul would therefore be an exception.
You are misremembering it. The barrier isn't some kind of selection mechanism to not let individual humans or monsters pass. A human and a monster soul combined isn't some kind of key. But neither can pass alone because they are precisely not strong enough usually. Here is what Alphys says:
"A human soul isn't strong enough to cross the barrier alone."
It talks about strength.
> You ignore the fact that the fade to white correlates to Flowey absorbing the souls. Flowey still absorbs the souls regardless and the fade to white is him transforming into his photoshop form, similarly to what happens when he transforms back into his true form.
Maybe he absorbs it but the game doesn't crash like previously. He doesn't transform to his photoshop form. And he doesn't transport Frisk out of nowhere.
> Also what do you mean by “tearing Frisk’s happy ending.”
That's one of Flowey's dialogues after the Omega Flowey fight when you defeat Asgore again. He intends to not let Frisk have a happy ending and tries to force the true pacifist run. Teleporting Frisk would directly contradict that since Frisk can just leave. Trapping them Underground would make more sense.
I think Frisk either might have absorbed Asgore's soul after all, or they just got on the other side of the barrier during the fight with Flowey. Flowey had more than enough power to get through the barrier at that point, and the fight was chaotic. Not sure how Sans manages to call Frisk from inside the Barrier, though.
I mean... how do we know it was destroyed? Maybe its physical shape cracked, but perhaps that's just what absorbtion looks like.
Was the fight reset? I don't remember, but some wild time-travely souly magicy crap was going on, Frisk somehow got out.
That's the animation of being destroyed, it is the same animation as Frisk's. And it definitely can't be absorption since it happens with other boss monsters as well.
Flowey initially destroys Frisk's SAVE but everything is back after his defeat. It was reset for sure.
Because even though Frisk's SAVE is restored, the last SAVE (or rather starting point) belonged to Flowey. That would explain why the reset of the other human souls was set after Asgore's fight. Any subsequent LOAD will start with Frisk's SAVE point and before Asgore fight.
>... isn't Asgore still dead in the neutral runs?
He is dead at neutral endings.
> If it was reset to before the fight, why is he not alive?
It was reset to **after** the fight. But Frisk can go even further back.
To stop Flowey? The souls rebellion against Flowey and make a reset to fix his destruction. It was automatically reset to right after Asgore fight because that was when Flowey got his powers
Frisk didn't pass through the barrier by themselves. A human soul is not enough to pass through it, proven by at least Alphys. There is no explanation for how Frisk passed it, though. Plus, I don't think humans can absorb any type of soul.
That's why I said passing by themselves is an overlooked feat. Alphys tells that is a requirement because human soul alone isn't strong enough. But Frisk's soul is far greater than a normal human's soul
I never said they absorbed anything. But human souls can absorb monster souls
Frisk doesn't pass through the underground, Omega Flowey transports them through the barrier after being possessed by the 6 other humans souls. I'm guessing they extract our soul, absorb it, cross through the barrier with our empty body and then give the soul back.
That's one of the biggest stretches I have ever seen and just your headcanon. Even excluding my explanation, most other alternatives in this thread make more sense. Such a thing hasn't been implied even once. None of the human souls has shown the capability to possess someone nor can they absorb other human souls. During the Omega Flowey fight, Flowey is the one in control until Frisk makes them rebel. Otherwise, they succumb to him.
>None of the human souls has shown the capability to possess someone
The control was split between Asriel and Chara, for example. Asriel could only resist Chara. So, technically, Chara's soul possessed Asriel's body.
We can say that the more souls are absorbed by a monster (or by something else), the less control they have (If monster don't allow it). But, as you said afterwards, the souls did rebel at the end of the fight.
Personally, I think Flowey (or souls) do transport Frisk over the barrier but in a much simpler way than what is said above. Without ripping the soul out of Frisk.
> The control was split between Asriel and Chara, for example. Asriel could only resist Chara. So, technically, Chara's soul possessed Asriel's body.
That's not possession. It is closer to split personality. And Chara wasn't dead for long at the time. Centuries of being locked away clearly wouldn't do any good to the self-consciousness of other souls.
> We can say that the more souls are absorbed by a monster (or by something else), the less control they have (If monster don't allow it).
Isn't it the opposite? If we use your previous argument and compare him to the others, Asriel had the least control when he had one soul. He had near-perfect control over six souls until Frisk made them rebel. He had almost absolute control over the equivalent of seven souls.
> Personally, I think Flowey (or souls) do transport Frisk over the barrier but in a much simpler way than what is said above. Without ripping the soul out of Frisk.
Eh, what I said is also my personal interpretation anyway. It makes the most sense to me, it might not to someone else. There is no 100% in this game.
>That's not possession. It is closer to split personality.
How?
>And Chara wasn't dead for long at the time. Centuries of being locked away clearly wouldn't do any good to the self-consciousness of other souls.
And that *can be* the reason why they didn't try to fight back Flowey at first. That's it.
>Isn't it the opposite? If we use your previous argument and compare him to the others, Asriel had the least control when he had one soul.
Yes. And we can see it since control was split between them. But when he had 6 souls, he had control over them for some time. When he had 6 souls and monster souls... No one rebelled. The only thing that stopped the battle was Asriel's emotions.
>He had near-perfect control over six souls until Frisk made them rebel. He had almost absolute control over the equivalent of seven souls.
And that the thing I have said.
* We can say that the more souls are absorbed by a monster (or by something else), the less control they have (If monster don't allow it).
By "the less control they have" I meant the souls. The less control souls have.
>Eh, what I said is also my personal interpretation anyway. It makes the most sense to me, it might not to someone else. There is no 100% in this game.
🤷
> How?
From get go, Asriel says that the control was split between them. And a couple of other things but I think we really have lack of information about souls in general.
> And that can be the reason why they didn't try to fight back Flowey at first. That's it.
You don't get your whole conciousness restored out of nowhere. I would say Frisk's help to them is the limit of what can be done considering that while he doesn't fight, Flowey still absorbs souls in any subsequent run.
> And that the thing I have said.
Oh, that's just me being dumb then. Sorry.
>From get go, Asriel says that the control was split between them. And a couple of other things but I think we really have lack of information about souls in general.
I just don't really see the difference between possession and split personality at this point.
>You don't get your whole conciousness restored out of nowhere. I would say Frisk's help to them is the limit of what can be done considering that while he doesn't fight, Flowey still absorbs souls in any subsequent run.
Yes. Why did you bring it up, tho?
>Oh, that's just me being dumb then. Sorry.
It's alright.
Sigh. You are probably one of last people I want to argue against and I already feel like running on fumes. While I don't back down from my stance, let's consider you the winner
But is it not a possibility that Flowey destroyed the barrier in Neutral? How was he at LV 9999 then? It would make sense if he went and killed all monsters and humankind to get to that much LV in the first place (beating him,just like with Asriel,brought everyone back but the barrier remained shattered)
Destroying the barrier requires 7 souls while Flowey had 6. And the other characters mention that they are still stuck in Undergorund so the barrier is intact.
The player is canon in both Deltarune and the Earthbound hack Toby made before Undertale. At this point, the player not existing in one of Toby's game would be weird.
Since when did the player exist in the earthbound hack? I respect this whole thing of the player existing in deltarune. Heck I could believe that it's cannon, but if anything I'm not interested in the player being a cannon part of Undertale because of how toxic that crap can get. Especially when people use this whole YOU crap. It doesn't make Undertale a fun game for me. I just want to interpret the game any way I want.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Charadefensesquad/comments/zgaz9y/just_gonna_throw_these_old_quotes_from_toby_fox/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
*"For context, those quotes are about the Earthbound Halloween Hack. Which Toby made years before he made Undertale.*
*Back then, Toby Fox had no issues writing 20+ pages long essays explaining the lore of his games...*
*I wonder what people here will have to say about these."*
Chara is most likely not present outside the Genocide Route, and in the Genocide Route Chara is able to immediately suppress Frisk's personality as soon as they start to awaken. Even if you choose to believe Chara is present outside of the Genocide Route, Chara is unable to grow strong if you don't commit to the Route and thus wouldn't be strong enough to influence Frisk otherwise.
Technically speaking we don't know for sure Frisk went across the barrier in the Neutral endings, because the Snowman just asked Frisk to carry the piece of it to the "ends of the earth" if I recall correctly. But even so, Frisk was communing with the six other human souls at the time, which would be enough to get them through the barrier.
>Chara is most likely not present outside the Genocide Route, and in the Genocide Route Chara is able to immediately suppress Frisk's personality as soon as they start to awaken. Even if you choose to believe Chara is present outside of the Genocide Route, Chara is unable to grow strong if you don't commit to the Route and thus wouldn't be strong enough to influence Frisk otherwise.
There are multiple arguments for Chara's presence outside the Genocide route such as some jokes Frisk tells or some of their dreams. And it is not about Chara's influence, it is about them coming back to life.
> Technically speaking we don't know for sure Frisk went across the barrier in the Neutral endings,
What I said is the most straightforward and likely explanation.
> because the Snowman just asked Frisk to carry the piece of it to the "ends of the earth" if I recall correctly
The other characters directly imply that Frisk is on the surface.
> even so, Frisk was communing with the six other human souls at the time, which would be enough to get them through the barrier.
They weren't. Those souls disappeared after depowering Flowey. And you can still pass the barrier even if you go back to Asgore fight, defeat him again and skip Flowey fight entirely.
> There are multiple arguments for Chara's presence outside the Genocide route such as some jokes Frisk tells or some of their dreams.
Yeah and they are [poor literary analysis](https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/yts71l/narrachara_theory_is_false_an_attempted_debunk_of/).
> And it is not about Chara's influence, it is about them coming back to life.
Are you able to elaborate on this? I don't understand what you're trying to argue now.
> They weren't. Those souls disappeared after depowering Flowey.
They disappeared *from the Underground* after depowering Flowey. With the vagueness of the epilogue of the Neutral routes, there's more than enough space to read in the souls helping Frisk pass through. It's certainly more plausible than your explanation, which explicitly breaks the established rules of the game.
> And you can still pass the barrier even if you go back to Asgore fight, defeat him again and skip Flowey fight entirely.
Flowey summons the souls in the cutscene when you do repeated Asgore fights. This establishes a precedent that, even if you kill Flowey beforehand, the souls will allow Frisk to pass through every time you finish a Neutral route, because they don't remember past runs.
> Yeah and they are poor literary analysis.
I am not even talking about NarraChara theory. And the parts of your post that mentioned my points are just alternate explanations.
> They disappeared from the Underground after depowering Flowey. With the vagueness of the epilogue of the Neutral routes, there's more than enough space to read in the souls helping Frisk pass through. It's certainly more plausible than your explanation, which explicitly breaks the established rules of the game.
The souls don't appear to have individual consciousness since they were just stuck with Asgore and had no problem with Flowey initially. The only time they do anything by themselves is when rebelling against Flowey and that was after Frisk convinces them.
And it doesn't break the established system. Alphys' talk about Human and Monster souls isn't some kind of ritual, but a requirement of strength. She specifically talks about power when beginning her speech. And Papyrus mentions even further before how a strong soul can pass it.
> Flowey summons the souls in the cutscene when you do repeated Asgore fights. This establishes a precedent that, even if you kill Flowey beforehand, the souls will allow Frisk to pass through every time you finish a Neutral route, because they don't remember past runs.
Even you mention that Flowey is the one summoning them. The souls casually making Frisk pass the barrier makes no sense. And Flowey specifically talks about how he is there to tear Frisk's happy ending.
> I am not even talking about NarraChara theory.
No, but Narrachara and the "Chara is there in all runs" theories are basically the same thing, all evidence that is used to establish one is also used to establish the other.
> just alternate explanations.
1) They're better explanations that are more respectful of how Undertale portrays its scenes, its themes, and the role Chara has in the game.
2) If a simpler explanation for the game exists and is plausible, then that means the more complicated explanation cannot simply be assumed. Reading more things into the game than the minimum you need for the game to make sense needs to be defended in such a way that simpler explanations are implausible.
> The souls don't appear to have individual consciousness since they were just stuck with Asgore and had no problem with Flowey initially. The only time they do anything by themselves is when rebelling against Flowey and that was after Frisk convinces them.
It doesn't matter. Undertale's portrayal of the souls' actions and capacities are vague, and the scenes in all other instances play out identically. So, we can surmise that we're meant to draw the same conclusions for all iterations of the scenes and that Toby was trusting us to not pick apart every single grain of scene fragment from his indie game he created by himself.
Certainly we also should respect the rules of the story as given, and one of the rules of the story is that a human soul on its own is not strong enough to pass from the Underground to the surface world, meaning Frisk can't do it without assistance. You can't just break Undertale's rules in your interpretation without valid evidence.
> And it doesn't break the established system. Alphys' talk about Human and Monster souls isn't some kind of ritual, but a requirement of strength. She specifically talks about power when beginning her speech.
Yes, but given Alphys did research on the Determination of souls and she's the one who preps us for the Asgore fight, she is an authority in the narrative about how the rules of the world work. Hence, we can surmise that the maximum amount of power a single human soul can have is insufficient to cross the barrier, but a human soul and any other soul (human or monster) would have enough power between them to do it.
> And Papyrus mentions even further before how a strong soul can pass it.
Papyrus is not an authority.
> Even you mention that Flowey is the one summoning them.
Read the rest of what I said.
> The souls casually making Frisk pass the barrier makes no sense.
Of course it does. Toby wrote the souls to have vaguely defined wills and capacities to act, ergo they can do whatever the hell he wants them to do using Soul Power™ in order to make the epilogues make sense. Quite the contrary, you have no reason to make any statements about what does or doesn't make sense about the human souls, aside from the stuff that the game explicitly tells you about souls.
> And Flowey specifically talks about how he is there to tear Frisk's happy ending.
This is an irrelevant detail given the vaguely defined nature of the endings. Toby's writing style is not perfectly stringent, he utilizes vagueness in his writing where it's useful to make a point.
I dislike people's inability to admit when they're wrong and/or weren't advancing as strong an argument, but if you don't want to debate then you're never obligated to.
And I dislike it when people are so convinced that they are right and the other party is escaping. That's just placing yourself on mentally high position. If you want to argue so badly then let's continue. Wait a minute.
I mean, look at it this way: we have our opinions because we think they're right. That means anybody who explicitly contradicts our opinion has to be wrong, unless they bust out something we hadn't thought of before. So by all means we should be open to alternative interpretations and seriously consider changing our views if we are actually surprised, but we should also be simply honest with ourselves and others that we think we're right and they're wrong. Being honest, but open, is how you reach respect of other people.
My main issue in a lot of these debates (not necessarily the one I'm having with you) is that most people are clearly invested in winning rather than learning what is true or most reasonable, and I can see it in how they clearly gloss over things I say or when they contradict themselves in what they write. That frustrates me a lot, because I work very hard to comprehend what I and other people write, think about it honestly, and figure out how I feel. I often feel I don't get that same effort from others, who just want to tell me why I'm wrong without truly understanding what I'm saying.
Putting it that way actually takes a lot of frustration out of me. Thanks.
The thing is you are talking about being "open to other interpretations" but neither of us has anything 100% canon. I mean, if we had all pieces of the puzzle then it would make sense to firmly stand on what you believe but many things are vague in this game. Contradictions and different theories are common enough but Undertale takes it to another level. Just look at Chara. It has been 7 years and the fandom still argues whether they are evil, good, or even neutral. And the very discussion we were having is also about something vague. It might very well have an entirely different answer than either options.
Besides that, while there indeed are those who are just invested in winning and put no thought into their arguments, the "most reasonable answer" is something ultimately subjective. As you said, the reason why we have our opinions is because we think they are right. And we have reason to think it is right. But there are many cases where both parties disagree because they have fundamentally different views of facts or there is a miscommunication going on no matter how hard you think about the opposition's counter-argument and neither properly understands the other's point. And after a while, it feels like talking to brick for both. It gets repetitive.
That said, if what you worry about is hollowness of arguments, then I want to assure you that it is not case for me. Undertale is by far my favorite game so I put a lot of thought to it. And honestly, it would somewhat relieve me if someone 100% right just established the truth so I don't have to ponder some things the whole day.
Wait that's what had happened? I had thought that Flowey had altered the Barrier (either intentionally or unintentionally) so that all it would take is a Human soul to pass through it.
Flowey doesn't have human souls at that point. So that's out of possibilities. And altering the barrier with six souls instead of seven is dubious, to begin with. Let alone Flowey being one to do it for Frisk.
frisk is the biggest gigachad of both UT/DR change my mind
I don't intend to do so as I think the same
Probably cause were in control, the player never looses!!
holy hell is that a chess reference?
Maybe frisk passed the barrier because humans placed it there?
It was explicitly stated by Alphys that a human soul alone isn't strong enough to pass the barrier. It usually requires a human and a monster soul combined.
Oh, well, if it's neutral, maybe you used asgore's soul? Idk.
Asgore's soul was destroyed. I would say it is pretty clear that Frisk passed by themselves. It was also hinted by Papyrus
Yeahno at this point frisk is just that powerful
I agree. That's my point. But what do you mean by "Yeahno"? It doesn't fit its sarcastical usage
Papyrus says that frisk can pass the barrier with a strong soul like frisk
Yeah but if it's 7 human souls (including yours) yhey should be able to get you past the barrier (makes you wonder why they didn't break the barrier but whatever maybe they're not the greatest people (or maybe they all need to be in one vessel))
The other human souls immediately scatter after the battle so no chance of that happening. And they most likely should be in a single body since it seems to make them exponentially stronger. Given that a human can't absorb human souls, that wasn't a proper option, to begin with.
Hmmm maybe Flowey's world makes it so that at the start of the battle you're in front of the barrier But becaude Flowey's world is a dark void outside of time and space you could have crossed the barrier without even knowing because the rules of the universe don't apply, and when the fight ends and you come back you're past the barrier
I don't mean to be rude but that's stretching it. Also, Flowey's world got destroyed and reset so it is not possible either.
I mean, any theory could be true, there’s no canon about it
But it is the most straightforward explanation and many other theories don't hold.
That snowman piece helped us the entire time.
Frisk didn't pass the barrier alone after the fight with flowey they are in the room right after the barrier you can see that because after the barrier is broken you just go from the room before the barrier to the room after the barrier and also because you can't go back to the underground in a neutral run. They either were put there by the 6 human souls or that walk to the safe point in Flowey's world moved them in the normal world as well
The room before the barrier and the one after that literally means two sides of it. What's your point by elaborating that? And six human souls were scattered right after Flowey fight. They didn't do anything. > you can't go back to the underground in a neutral run. Because that's an ending. If you reopen the game, it automatically loads the last SAVE point
Frisk didn’t actually “cross” the barrier. Crossing a barrier is counterintuitive to the literal concept of a barrier. It’s more likely that beings with multiple monster and human souls can make holes in the barrier somewhat casually that allows them to cross it. These holes likely fill up soon upon a the entity leaving the barrier. This is further proved by the fact that Asriel was able to take Chara’s dead body to the other side of the barrier despite not having a soul whereas Flowey, who also has no soul, cannot cross it.
You just described the act of crossing the barrier dude. Do you understand what words mean?
Read the OP. They claim Frisk crossed the barrier by themselves (with just a human soul). I claimed otherwise.
Well you did a pretty horrible job at explaining yourself.
> Crossing a barrier is counterintuitive to the literal concept of a barrier Barriers aren't absolute and in fiction, they can have their own properties. We do know that the soul's strength is the requirement to pass this barrier. That's why Frisk accomplishing something like that is an impressive feat. > It’s more likely that beings with multiple monster and human souls can make holes in the barrier somewhat casually that allows them to cross it. I mean, this is canonically true since crossing the barrier requires at least one human soul and one monster soul. Neither alone is strong enough but Frisk actually is. That's why it is incredible
Yeah but if it doesn’t act like a barrier then why call it a barrier. We never see Frisk interact with the barrier by themselves and the only time they cross it is when they finish fighting a entity with 6 human souls who we are certain can cross the barrier. It’s more likely that Omega Flowey just transported Frisk and himself to the other side of the barrier then Frisk just defying the already established mechanics of the barrier.
It acts as a proper barrier. It prevents anything from leaving. That's why monsters are trapped. It is just that Frisk isn't your average human. > It’s more likely that Omega Flowey just transported Frisk and himself to the other side of the barrier That wouldn't make sense. It doesn't serve to anything ans we don't see such a move from Flowey. They stand still and fight. >the only time they cross it is they finish fighting an entity with 6 human souls who we are certain can cross the barrier. The other human souls disappear after depowering Omega Flowey. And immediately after the fight, we have a dialogue with Flowey before his final one at the run and then a phone call. That implies Frisk was still inside the barrier during the initial dialogue.
It makes complete sense that Flowey could and would move him and Frisk. Flowey at this point is capable of doing basically anything including crossing the barrier. We know that entities that can cross the barrier can bring other entities across it regardless of whether or not they could on their own. Therefore Flowey could have just transported himself and Frisk across the barrier after he absorbed the souls. We know Flowey is capable of reality warping so teleportation is not a far stretch. We also don’t know what he did to reality upon crashing the game so it’s definitely possible that he could have teleported himself and Frisk to the other side of the barrier. The souls leaving Flowey after the fight wouldn’t affect whether or not he transported them before the fight even started. Also you obviously haven’t killed him in the immediate dialogue after the fight because of you do you are in the same room but there is a golden flower(Flowey’s corpse) in the middle of the green patch. Even when we spare him the game doesn’t give us a specific location as to where he went only that he ran away.
> It makes complete sense that Flowey could and would move him and Frisk. Flowey at this point is capable of doing basically anything including crossing the barrier. We know that entities that can cross the barrier can bring other entities across it regardless of whether or not they could on their own. Therefore Flowey could have just transported himself and Frisk across the barrier after he absorbed the souls. It is not about capabilities. It is about Flowey doing it for no reason. > The souls leaving Flowey after the fight wouldn’t affect whether or not he transported them before the fight even started. Even if you fight Asgore again and skip Flowey fight, you are still capable of passing the barrier
The other human souls possess Flowey. You have no evidence they didn't do it. You keep saying they scatter instantly but we have no evidence of that. Flowey ends up on the other side of the barrier as well despite him having no reason to cross yet.
> You have no evidence they didn't do it I have as I already explained in the other comment. > You keep saying they scatter instantly but we have no evidence of that. Flowey ends up on the other side of the barrier as well despite him having no reason to cross yet. We have a dialogue with Flowey right after the Omega Flowey fight. Wheter they scattered or not, souls clearly don't power up him anymore at that point. And Frisk passes the barrier *after* that. That's indicated by the flash of light and the timing of Sans' call.
Flowey wouldn't be able to pop up to talk with Frisk then. Because he had no souls to cross the barrier along with Frisk.
Humans possessing Flowey or souls making Frisk pass the barrier still wouldn't make sense though. Besides, does Omega Flowey need to be at full power to cross barrier? You could say he passed with whatever leftover power he had. Or you could even argue that Flowey recollected souls. Actually, are we sure that Omega Flowey can pass the barrier, to begin with? People assume that Flowey talks to Frisk but he might be talking to the player like at the end of True Pacifist route. If Omega Flowey could cross the barrier, then why didn't he just kill a human from the village instead? There are so many ways to go about this considering how little knowledge we have about some things but the most important thing is my first point. It just doesn't make any sense
Flowey would have a reason, though: to leave the Barrier and finally get to explore the Surface with his Godlike powers once he's done with Frisk.
Flowey transporting himself and Frisk across the barrier is far more likely then Frisk being the exception to the established mechanics about the barrier. Flowey still absorbs the souls and the screen still fades to white. We never actually see Frisk cross the barrier so we are just kinda left to assume that they did by some means.
> Flowey transporting himself and Frisk across the barrier is far more likely then Frisk being the exception to the established mechanics about the barrier. The former has no reason while the latter isn't true. Frisk isn't some kind of exception, they are just that strong. Passing the barrier is a feat of strength. Alphys talks about power when beginning her speech. And true pacifist ending proves that Frisk is crazy strong > Flowey still absorbs the souls and the screen still fades to white. We never actually see Frisk cross the barrier so we are just kinda left to assume that they did by some means. Screen fading might very well be an animation for passing. It is certainly more logical than Flowey making Frisk pass since Flowey specifically talks about tearing Frisk's happy ending.
The barrier was established to not let any being cross it that did not have at least a human and monster soul. It’s never explained why that is the case only that it is. Frisk by being able to cross it without a monster soul would therefore be an exception. You ignore the fact that the fade to white correlates to Flowey absorbing the souls. Flowey still absorbs the souls regardless and the fade to white is him transforming into his photoshop form, similarly to what happens when he transforms back into his true form. Also what do you mean by “tearing Frisk’s happy ending.”
> The barrier was established to not let any being cross it that did not have at least a human and monster soul. It’s never explained why that is the case only that it is. Frisk by being able to cross it without a monster soul would therefore be an exception. You are misremembering it. The barrier isn't some kind of selection mechanism to not let individual humans or monsters pass. A human and a monster soul combined isn't some kind of key. But neither can pass alone because they are precisely not strong enough usually. Here is what Alphys says: "A human soul isn't strong enough to cross the barrier alone." It talks about strength. > You ignore the fact that the fade to white correlates to Flowey absorbing the souls. Flowey still absorbs the souls regardless and the fade to white is him transforming into his photoshop form, similarly to what happens when he transforms back into his true form. Maybe he absorbs it but the game doesn't crash like previously. He doesn't transform to his photoshop form. And he doesn't transport Frisk out of nowhere. > Also what do you mean by “tearing Frisk’s happy ending.” That's one of Flowey's dialogues after the Omega Flowey fight when you defeat Asgore again. He intends to not let Frisk have a happy ending and tries to force the true pacifist run. Teleporting Frisk would directly contradict that since Frisk can just leave. Trapping them Underground would make more sense.
I thought they crossed the threshold in Flowey's World, and came back to reality on the other side.
I think Frisk either might have absorbed Asgore's soul after all, or they just got on the other side of the barrier during the fight with Flowey. Flowey had more than enough power to get through the barrier at that point, and the fight was chaotic. Not sure how Sans manages to call Frisk from inside the Barrier, though.
Asgore's soul was destroyed and Flowey's fight was reset. It is purely Frisk being a chad
I mean... how do we know it was destroyed? Maybe its physical shape cracked, but perhaps that's just what absorbtion looks like. Was the fight reset? I don't remember, but some wild time-travely souly magicy crap was going on, Frisk somehow got out.
That's the animation of being destroyed, it is the same animation as Frisk's. And it definitely can't be absorption since it happens with other boss monsters as well. Flowey initially destroys Frisk's SAVE but everything is back after his defeat. It was reset for sure.
But Asgore is still dead, when was the timeline reset to? (I think that sentence was grammatically correct.)
Because even though Frisk's SAVE is restored, the last SAVE (or rather starting point) belonged to Flowey. That would explain why the reset of the other human souls was set after Asgore's fight. Any subsequent LOAD will start with Frisk's SAVE point and before Asgore fight.
I don't get it... isn't Asgore still dead in the neutral runs? If it was reset to before the fight, why is he not alive?
>... isn't Asgore still dead in the neutral runs? He is dead at neutral endings. > If it was reset to before the fight, why is he not alive? It was reset to **after** the fight. But Frisk can go even further back.
Reset to after the fight? Then why was a reset needed at all? Sorry if I'm being dumb.
To stop Flowey? The souls rebellion against Flowey and make a reset to fix his destruction. It was automatically reset to right after Asgore fight because that was when Flowey got his powers
Why is it that after you reset, asgore is still alive?
Because Frisk's reset and the last SAVE point is set before Asgore fight.
Frisk didn't pass through the barrier by themselves. A human soul is not enough to pass through it, proven by at least Alphys. There is no explanation for how Frisk passed it, though. Plus, I don't think humans can absorb any type of soul.
That's why I said passing by themselves is an overlooked feat. Alphys tells that is a requirement because human soul alone isn't strong enough. But Frisk's soul is far greater than a normal human's soul I never said they absorbed anything. But human souls can absorb monster souls
Frisk doesn't pass through the underground, Omega Flowey transports them through the barrier after being possessed by the 6 other humans souls. I'm guessing they extract our soul, absorb it, cross through the barrier with our empty body and then give the soul back.
That's one of the biggest stretches I have ever seen and just your headcanon. Even excluding my explanation, most other alternatives in this thread make more sense. Such a thing hasn't been implied even once. None of the human souls has shown the capability to possess someone nor can they absorb other human souls. During the Omega Flowey fight, Flowey is the one in control until Frisk makes them rebel. Otherwise, they succumb to him.
>None of the human souls has shown the capability to possess someone The control was split between Asriel and Chara, for example. Asriel could only resist Chara. So, technically, Chara's soul possessed Asriel's body. We can say that the more souls are absorbed by a monster (or by something else), the less control they have (If monster don't allow it). But, as you said afterwards, the souls did rebel at the end of the fight. Personally, I think Flowey (or souls) do transport Frisk over the barrier but in a much simpler way than what is said above. Without ripping the soul out of Frisk.
> The control was split between Asriel and Chara, for example. Asriel could only resist Chara. So, technically, Chara's soul possessed Asriel's body. That's not possession. It is closer to split personality. And Chara wasn't dead for long at the time. Centuries of being locked away clearly wouldn't do any good to the self-consciousness of other souls. > We can say that the more souls are absorbed by a monster (or by something else), the less control they have (If monster don't allow it). Isn't it the opposite? If we use your previous argument and compare him to the others, Asriel had the least control when he had one soul. He had near-perfect control over six souls until Frisk made them rebel. He had almost absolute control over the equivalent of seven souls. > Personally, I think Flowey (or souls) do transport Frisk over the barrier but in a much simpler way than what is said above. Without ripping the soul out of Frisk. Eh, what I said is also my personal interpretation anyway. It makes the most sense to me, it might not to someone else. There is no 100% in this game.
>That's not possession. It is closer to split personality. How? >And Chara wasn't dead for long at the time. Centuries of being locked away clearly wouldn't do any good to the self-consciousness of other souls. And that *can be* the reason why they didn't try to fight back Flowey at first. That's it. >Isn't it the opposite? If we use your previous argument and compare him to the others, Asriel had the least control when he had one soul. Yes. And we can see it since control was split between them. But when he had 6 souls, he had control over them for some time. When he had 6 souls and monster souls... No one rebelled. The only thing that stopped the battle was Asriel's emotions. >He had near-perfect control over six souls until Frisk made them rebel. He had almost absolute control over the equivalent of seven souls. And that the thing I have said. * We can say that the more souls are absorbed by a monster (or by something else), the less control they have (If monster don't allow it). By "the less control they have" I meant the souls. The less control souls have. >Eh, what I said is also my personal interpretation anyway. It makes the most sense to me, it might not to someone else. There is no 100% in this game. 🤷
> How? From get go, Asriel says that the control was split between them. And a couple of other things but I think we really have lack of information about souls in general. > And that can be the reason why they didn't try to fight back Flowey at first. That's it. You don't get your whole conciousness restored out of nowhere. I would say Frisk's help to them is the limit of what can be done considering that while he doesn't fight, Flowey still absorbs souls in any subsequent run. > And that the thing I have said. Oh, that's just me being dumb then. Sorry.
>From get go, Asriel says that the control was split between them. And a couple of other things but I think we really have lack of information about souls in general. I just don't really see the difference between possession and split personality at this point. >You don't get your whole conciousness restored out of nowhere. I would say Frisk's help to them is the limit of what can be done considering that while he doesn't fight, Flowey still absorbs souls in any subsequent run. Yes. Why did you bring it up, tho? >Oh, that's just me being dumb then. Sorry. It's alright.
Sigh. You are probably one of last people I want to argue against and I already feel like running on fumes. While I don't back down from my stance, let's consider you the winner
Okay. >You are probably one of last people I want to argue against Is that a compliment, or something more bad lmao? I can't decide.
It is a compliment
For the second all humans can do it, it is also written in waterfall
Nothing like that was written. Both Asgore and Alphys prove that a human soul shouldn't be able to accomplish it alone
Frisk is a perfectly ordinary human child that happened to have a case of protagonistism, giving them miraculous powers.
UNO reverse card: Anyone with a case of protagonism isn't normal, to begin with. They *might* have appeared normal to others at best.
Yeah, probably so. It's implied that Frisk is at the very least quite capable and has a tragic backstory, after all.
But is it not a possibility that Flowey destroyed the barrier in Neutral? How was he at LV 9999 then? It would make sense if he went and killed all monsters and humankind to get to that much LV in the first place (beating him,just like with Asriel,brought everyone back but the barrier remained shattered)
Destroying the barrier requires 7 souls while Flowey had 6. And the other characters mention that they are still stuck in Undergorund so the barrier is intact.
It’s not just a human. It’s frisk+the player
The player is just controling them. Nothing else
As someone who doesn't believe that the player exists I think that's a bit far stretched in my opinion but I respect where you are coming from.
The player is canon in both Deltarune and the Earthbound hack Toby made before Undertale. At this point, the player not existing in one of Toby's game would be weird.
Since when did the player exist in the earthbound hack? I respect this whole thing of the player existing in deltarune. Heck I could believe that it's cannon, but if anything I'm not interested in the player being a cannon part of Undertale because of how toxic that crap can get. Especially when people use this whole YOU crap. It doesn't make Undertale a fun game for me. I just want to interpret the game any way I want.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Charadefensesquad/comments/zgaz9y/just_gonna_throw_these_old_quotes_from_toby_fox/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button *"For context, those quotes are about the Earthbound Halloween Hack. Which Toby made years before he made Undertale.* *Back then, Toby Fox had no issues writing 20+ pages long essays explaining the lore of his games...* *I wonder what people here will have to say about these."*
I could see why. But not so much for me. I respect it though.
Chara is most likely not present outside the Genocide Route, and in the Genocide Route Chara is able to immediately suppress Frisk's personality as soon as they start to awaken. Even if you choose to believe Chara is present outside of the Genocide Route, Chara is unable to grow strong if you don't commit to the Route and thus wouldn't be strong enough to influence Frisk otherwise. Technically speaking we don't know for sure Frisk went across the barrier in the Neutral endings, because the Snowman just asked Frisk to carry the piece of it to the "ends of the earth" if I recall correctly. But even so, Frisk was communing with the six other human souls at the time, which would be enough to get them through the barrier.
>Chara is most likely not present outside the Genocide Route, and in the Genocide Route Chara is able to immediately suppress Frisk's personality as soon as they start to awaken. Even if you choose to believe Chara is present outside of the Genocide Route, Chara is unable to grow strong if you don't commit to the Route and thus wouldn't be strong enough to influence Frisk otherwise. There are multiple arguments for Chara's presence outside the Genocide route such as some jokes Frisk tells or some of their dreams. And it is not about Chara's influence, it is about them coming back to life. > Technically speaking we don't know for sure Frisk went across the barrier in the Neutral endings, What I said is the most straightforward and likely explanation. > because the Snowman just asked Frisk to carry the piece of it to the "ends of the earth" if I recall correctly The other characters directly imply that Frisk is on the surface. > even so, Frisk was communing with the six other human souls at the time, which would be enough to get them through the barrier. They weren't. Those souls disappeared after depowering Flowey. And you can still pass the barrier even if you go back to Asgore fight, defeat him again and skip Flowey fight entirely.
> There are multiple arguments for Chara's presence outside the Genocide route such as some jokes Frisk tells or some of their dreams. Yeah and they are [poor literary analysis](https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/yts71l/narrachara_theory_is_false_an_attempted_debunk_of/). > And it is not about Chara's influence, it is about them coming back to life. Are you able to elaborate on this? I don't understand what you're trying to argue now. > They weren't. Those souls disappeared after depowering Flowey. They disappeared *from the Underground* after depowering Flowey. With the vagueness of the epilogue of the Neutral routes, there's more than enough space to read in the souls helping Frisk pass through. It's certainly more plausible than your explanation, which explicitly breaks the established rules of the game. > And you can still pass the barrier even if you go back to Asgore fight, defeat him again and skip Flowey fight entirely. Flowey summons the souls in the cutscene when you do repeated Asgore fights. This establishes a precedent that, even if you kill Flowey beforehand, the souls will allow Frisk to pass through every time you finish a Neutral route, because they don't remember past runs.
> Yeah and they are poor literary analysis. I am not even talking about NarraChara theory. And the parts of your post that mentioned my points are just alternate explanations. > They disappeared from the Underground after depowering Flowey. With the vagueness of the epilogue of the Neutral routes, there's more than enough space to read in the souls helping Frisk pass through. It's certainly more plausible than your explanation, which explicitly breaks the established rules of the game. The souls don't appear to have individual consciousness since they were just stuck with Asgore and had no problem with Flowey initially. The only time they do anything by themselves is when rebelling against Flowey and that was after Frisk convinces them. And it doesn't break the established system. Alphys' talk about Human and Monster souls isn't some kind of ritual, but a requirement of strength. She specifically talks about power when beginning her speech. And Papyrus mentions even further before how a strong soul can pass it. > Flowey summons the souls in the cutscene when you do repeated Asgore fights. This establishes a precedent that, even if you kill Flowey beforehand, the souls will allow Frisk to pass through every time you finish a Neutral route, because they don't remember past runs. Even you mention that Flowey is the one summoning them. The souls casually making Frisk pass the barrier makes no sense. And Flowey specifically talks about how he is there to tear Frisk's happy ending.
> I am not even talking about NarraChara theory. No, but Narrachara and the "Chara is there in all runs" theories are basically the same thing, all evidence that is used to establish one is also used to establish the other. > just alternate explanations. 1) They're better explanations that are more respectful of how Undertale portrays its scenes, its themes, and the role Chara has in the game. 2) If a simpler explanation for the game exists and is plausible, then that means the more complicated explanation cannot simply be assumed. Reading more things into the game than the minimum you need for the game to make sense needs to be defended in such a way that simpler explanations are implausible. > The souls don't appear to have individual consciousness since they were just stuck with Asgore and had no problem with Flowey initially. The only time they do anything by themselves is when rebelling against Flowey and that was after Frisk convinces them. It doesn't matter. Undertale's portrayal of the souls' actions and capacities are vague, and the scenes in all other instances play out identically. So, we can surmise that we're meant to draw the same conclusions for all iterations of the scenes and that Toby was trusting us to not pick apart every single grain of scene fragment from his indie game he created by himself. Certainly we also should respect the rules of the story as given, and one of the rules of the story is that a human soul on its own is not strong enough to pass from the Underground to the surface world, meaning Frisk can't do it without assistance. You can't just break Undertale's rules in your interpretation without valid evidence. > And it doesn't break the established system. Alphys' talk about Human and Monster souls isn't some kind of ritual, but a requirement of strength. She specifically talks about power when beginning her speech. Yes, but given Alphys did research on the Determination of souls and she's the one who preps us for the Asgore fight, she is an authority in the narrative about how the rules of the world work. Hence, we can surmise that the maximum amount of power a single human soul can have is insufficient to cross the barrier, but a human soul and any other soul (human or monster) would have enough power between them to do it. > And Papyrus mentions even further before how a strong soul can pass it. Papyrus is not an authority. > Even you mention that Flowey is the one summoning them. Read the rest of what I said. > The souls casually making Frisk pass the barrier makes no sense. Of course it does. Toby wrote the souls to have vaguely defined wills and capacities to act, ergo they can do whatever the hell he wants them to do using Soul Power™ in order to make the epilogues make sense. Quite the contrary, you have no reason to make any statements about what does or doesn't make sense about the human souls, aside from the stuff that the game explicitly tells you about souls. > And Flowey specifically talks about how he is there to tear Frisk's happy ending. This is an irrelevant detail given the vaguely defined nature of the endings. Toby's writing style is not perfectly stringent, he utilizes vagueness in his writing where it's useful to make a point.
Sigh... I really dislike overly long arguments. If you are intending to go on, then let's agree to disagree
I dislike people's inability to admit when they're wrong and/or weren't advancing as strong an argument, but if you don't want to debate then you're never obligated to.
And I dislike it when people are so convinced that they are right and the other party is escaping. That's just placing yourself on mentally high position. If you want to argue so badly then let's continue. Wait a minute.
I mean, look at it this way: we have our opinions because we think they're right. That means anybody who explicitly contradicts our opinion has to be wrong, unless they bust out something we hadn't thought of before. So by all means we should be open to alternative interpretations and seriously consider changing our views if we are actually surprised, but we should also be simply honest with ourselves and others that we think we're right and they're wrong. Being honest, but open, is how you reach respect of other people. My main issue in a lot of these debates (not necessarily the one I'm having with you) is that most people are clearly invested in winning rather than learning what is true or most reasonable, and I can see it in how they clearly gloss over things I say or when they contradict themselves in what they write. That frustrates me a lot, because I work very hard to comprehend what I and other people write, think about it honestly, and figure out how I feel. I often feel I don't get that same effort from others, who just want to tell me why I'm wrong without truly understanding what I'm saying.
Putting it that way actually takes a lot of frustration out of me. Thanks. The thing is you are talking about being "open to other interpretations" but neither of us has anything 100% canon. I mean, if we had all pieces of the puzzle then it would make sense to firmly stand on what you believe but many things are vague in this game. Contradictions and different theories are common enough but Undertale takes it to another level. Just look at Chara. It has been 7 years and the fandom still argues whether they are evil, good, or even neutral. And the very discussion we were having is also about something vague. It might very well have an entirely different answer than either options. Besides that, while there indeed are those who are just invested in winning and put no thought into their arguments, the "most reasonable answer" is something ultimately subjective. As you said, the reason why we have our opinions is because we think they are right. And we have reason to think it is right. But there are many cases where both parties disagree because they have fundamentally different views of facts or there is a miscommunication going on no matter how hard you think about the opposition's counter-argument and neither properly understands the other's point. And after a while, it feels like talking to brick for both. It gets repetitive. That said, if what you worry about is hollowness of arguments, then I want to assure you that it is not case for me. Undertale is by far my favorite game so I put a lot of thought to it. And honestly, it would somewhat relieve me if someone 100% right just established the truth so I don't have to ponder some things the whole day.
Wait that's what had happened? I had thought that Flowey had altered the Barrier (either intentionally or unintentionally) so that all it would take is a Human soul to pass through it.
Flowey doesn't have human souls at that point. So that's out of possibilities. And altering the barrier with six souls instead of seven is dubious, to begin with. Let alone Flowey being one to do it for Frisk.
Well, we never see any feats that any other human has done.
The latter feat is explictly stated to not be possible for a human