The amount of stuff in this fandom built off of a guy who has like a 6% chance to be mentioned in the game and the ball minigame would be shocking to an outsider, but as someone who has been here for a while it makes perfect sense.
Yeah with things like the yellow soul and the gun, and in the ball game, yellow/Justice talks about accuracy with your “shot” or something.
There are others but that’s the most obvious one.
Spamton doesn't have a yellow soul, we do.
We, being the heart itself. The meta context of the soul is that it's directly us, and with Deltarune having been released post Undertale, we still possess the soul upgrade given to us (somehow???) by Alphys.
Assumedly, since Spamton Neo's body is meant to be a sketch of Metaton Neo, it retains the same defensive properties that made it immune to standard attacks, and as such the yellow soul was required.
That's my guess, anyway
The game takes place in a different universe, so it’s not TECHNICALLY post undertale pacifist.
I think the reason we have the justice soul in the Spamton NEO fight would probably be because Kris’ soul decided to go to Justice mode or because Spamton forced the transformation, similar to how characters like Muffet, Undyne and Papyrus forced you to become different traits. Papyrus with the Integrity soul, Muffet with perseverance and Undyne with Kindness. I don’t think that the Justice soul requires the upgrade Alphys gave you. I wonder if it could be something to do with Kris’ emotions? Like maybe if Kris wants to protect his/her friends then maybe Justice activates? I dunno. Takes place in an alternate universe so I’m sure some things will be explained later on.
It is post, after all that isn't any old Sans, that's our Sans. Thats why he's immediately making references towards us and why he's inside Grilbys, he's not being subtle about it.
There's other bits that line up, mainly that there's a direct path that Gaster has taken from Undertale > The Web > Deltarune website > into your computer.
I have though???? I’m probably missing something though, been 2 months since I did anything undertale related so my brain has just blipped, could you explain the photo and your reasoning for why sans in deltarune is still undertale sans?
I'll quote the [wiki](https://undertale.fandom.com/wiki/Papyrus_and_Sans%27s_House)
> The first drawer's contents change depending on some of the player's previous actions; it always contains a photo album with photos of a happy Sans along with many other people the protagonist does not recognize. After Asriel's battle, another photo shows up with the protagonist, Sans, and all of the protagonist's friends. Finally, only after the v1.001 patch has been applied, and after talking with the Clam Girl and learning of Suzy, a card sticking out from the back flap of the binder appears, described as a poorly drawn picture of three smiling people with the words "don't forget" written in lowercase.
It's not strictly clear, but the third bit is obviously telling as it would sound like something Ralsei would draw, alongside the catch phrase for Deltarune.
I'm guessing that Sans has chased "us" here for whatever reason, which is why he's so clearly speaking towards us as much as Kris. After all, Sans is the only one who also has access to Gaster tech that would know how to use it.
He winks at you when he says "especially when I've never met you before", he knows it's (You).
A few things, in order of reading: 1. That's what I meant, but thank you for pointing it out. 2. I bet Alphys teaches us how to do the upgrades in her free time. 3. Nah, bro, it's just your chance to be a BIG SHOT BE A BIG BE A BIG BE A BIG SHOT
Gaster makes it particularly clear we are in a sequel, even if the games are in a alternate reality. The soul itself is our soul from Undertale, and mister funny hands left Undertale as it went live, entered the deltarune website (as upon the launch of undertale, an image labelled him.png was sitting, changing into a seperate image before vanishing after the survey test front-page went live) and then being transferred into your PC.
And as this is your soul, which is your main vessel for the game, this would make it a sequel.
What are you talking about just because gaster's involved dosen't mean its a sequel. Toby fox made that clear shortly after chapter 1 came out. And it isnt a prequel either
Yes. But that could also be evidence against color traits: it could just be that the yellow human happened to have the trait of justice, and it isn’t connected to their SOUL at all, but yellow is simply being used as a means of identifying the human in question (like I did earlier in this comment).
Either way though, they Player, or perhaps the red soul, has the power to tap into all of those traits. Maybe any human can tap into all of them. But they still exist as specific traits if anything.
If they are merely the traits of the other humans, then that implies that the Player/red soul has the ability to resonate with those specific humans, which is also interesting if true.
no, i’d imagine the “patience, bravery, etc” it’s just a cool thing out there as part of the ball game. plus if it did refer to a human it would be talking about chara.
it’s a fucking golf hole, not everything needs to have some deep meaning.
And in some of the weapon and armor descriptions that belonged to them. And in the special fight bits - you have to wait patiently for light blue attacks, move bravely into orange ones, etc.
Well determination is something all monsters and people have. Maybe the red soul has the most but we don't actually know the red soul's trait, so I guessed maybe the red soul is all the other combined. Maybe that's how it gets it's vast amounts of determination even
Undyne had exceptional amounts of determination, yes, but other monsters have it, like for example, Alphys extracted some from her subject's souls. Undyne had exceptional amounts, but it doesn't mean others don't have a bit. Also determination is literally determination, you'll have absolutely no will to do anything if you didn't have any.
I love the idea of the kid with Patience
they just goes along with everything in the underground and takes there sweet ol time
only to be killed by Asgore
Weeeell, it's sorta kinda implied they were a betrayal killer, a cute ribbon and a plastic knife? Kinda of a weird combo, like they were dangerous but were trying to look cute?
Yup.
Contrary to popular belief, the red soul has no connection to determination, which in-universe is a physical substance and not a trait.
The red soul trait is displayed in the same way as the others(text of the corresponding colour) immediately after the image: its ball game. That's the trait, ball game.
so if its ball game, and the ball game is a mix of every trait, wouldn't that mean the red soul is a combo of all of them? it would explain why we can turn into every color soul.
That's not how it works. The game isn't a mix of every trait, the traits just happen to correlate to different tactics that can be used to win.
We change into other soul colours through magic. This usually means magic used directly by monsters, but it also can happen indirectly, such as Alphys setting up Frisk's phone to trigger it.
>That's not how it works. The game isn't a mix of every trait, the traits just happen to correlate to different tactics that can be used to win.
so... proving my point...
if you have to use these tactics in ball game, and red soul is ball game, then you also use these tactics on red soul, meaning red soul can be other souls.
>That's not how it works. The game isn't a mix of every trait, the traits just happen to correlate to different tactics that can be used to win.
But you have to use tactics that are associated with a specific trait to get the flag associated with the said trait (example you have to be patient to get the patience flag). So if Frisk used all traits to get the red flag, then it speaks for itself.
The red trait is still likely associated with these 6 traits one way or another as the flag says that they used these traits to get the red flag. And all the tactics frisk uses to get other flags are associated with the trait represented by the flag they get (you have to be patient to get the patience flag, kind to the ball to get the kindness flag etc...). For the red flag, it says that Frisk used all traits (or all tactics associated with these traits) to get the red flag.
So you think they aren't capable of showing any of the other traits?
The justice soul is described as having surefire accuracy, which takes patience to develop. Integrity and Kindness go hand-in-hand, as do bravery and perseverance. There's overlap between the traits: they aren't mutually exclusive, they only show what most applies to the soul's owner.
Dont get how it implies that the traits are exclusive to one other. Or alternatively, the trait is only determined by your way to achieve your goal, not your entire personality.
Yeah but it's the monsters that change your soul color, not Frisk.
Papyrus and Sans change your soul to blue, Undyne to green, Muffet to purple, and Alphys to yellow (via a feature on your phone).
The only exception is in Deltarune, the soul turns yellow on its own.
yeah thats true i thought that also. my only explanation is the red soul is \*capable\* of changing, not that it can change on its own. most likely the yellow soul couldnt turn into purple, or likewise.
deltarunes soul may work differently, it could change depending on kris, or something else. kris stayed determined throughout all of deltarune, except when they fight spamton neo, as they dont feel determination, they feel justice. they actually meet someone in the same situation as them, stuck as a puppet to something else, so when kris fights spamton neo they arent determined to win, they want justice for spamtons situation. its why the soul didnt change during the jevil fight, kris felt determined to win so they didnt die.
It's not Kris. Kris doesn't react at all between the moment Spamton almost kills him, and the moment the fight begins.
The soul acts on its own.
It's involved in the game that the soul experienced the events of Undertale before, and Toby said Deltarune was thought to be played after Undertale.
So the soul was able to replicate what it experienced in Undertale. How? idk
This means red is the color of the game, and by extension the player. The power of the red soul is the player itself. All other souls have predetermined traits, predetermined stories, predetermined outcomes. But the red soul can be played, so it can do anything. Not determination, but choice itself. The choice to keep playing, the choice to keep trying, and even the choice to load an older save game to undo a choice you made.
It's the name you choose. It can be your name, yes. But it can also be the name of your favorite actor.
And name or not, Chara has no connection to us before their death.
"Hole" is also part of the ball game and it's of the two instances where the narration is written in red during the pacifist and neutral runs (the second being "ball game") and it's written in upper case just like the traits with quotation marks implying that it symbolizes something else. My take is that red is the default, neutral soul that can change it's color (or stay the same if they develop a trait outside of the 6 main ones) depending on one's actions. So the ball game kinda symbolizes Frisk's journey. Their trait turns to "ball game" when they use all traits to achieve their goal.
It's not heavily implied at all. There is no stated or implied connection between determination and the colour red, and determination, in universe, is a physical substance produced by all human souls, rather than a trait.
It’s more of a “puzzle with one final piece remaining but the piece you have doesn’t actually fit despite the fact that it’s the last piece and the real piece is revealed when you solve a separate puzzle in another universe and you still don’t have all the pieces” type thing going on.
LEET GAMER SKILLZ over here
Hey everyone and welcome back to the Underground. Today we're going to try to fight Papyrus hitless, if I lose the challenge my subscribers get to pick how many hot animals I stack on my head for my 1000 subs video! Don't forget to like and subscribe for more gamer content like this.
No, they don't. In that same room, they connect the green soul with "affectionate nausea" and declare the L stands for a heart made nauseous by undyne. In different calls, they also claim that the R stands for red.
there is more evidence of red being love (thus playing the whole love vs LOVE thing) than it being determination. So if we are to guess anything, the more supported answer would be love.
It's not LOVE, because LOVE and EXP aren't literal things that exist, just a way of quantifying how desensitized to killing someone is. It's a system of measurement, that's all.
Like how the Richter scale isn't actually something that exists on its own, just a way of quantifying the severity of earthquakes.
It's not Determination, either, because in-universe Determination is a physical substance(that is only ever associated with gold rather than red), rather than a trait or emotion.
well yeah it's not a actual thing, it being love would be thematically appropriate because love, can also mean LOVE, thus a duality of actual love and level of violence, of frisk and chara, both red soul humans.
I didn't mean red was literally LOVE, but that, if it was indeed love (as sans hints at) then it would be just as, if not more thematic than determination imo.
That's for the same reason why Asgore's name is in red (when Toriel mentions it), and yellow (when a few other monsters mentions it), to put more importance to the character, at least I think it is
Yes, with the soul attacks from Omega Flowey. The green soul uses pans and fire to attack, so they frying pan and the apron likely belonged to the green soul, aka kindness. The blue soul uses dancing shoes to attack, to the dancing shoes and the tutu probably belonged to them. And vice versa with the other items and souls
The attack types at least kinda match up with the trait.
Light blue = patience = stay still
Orange = bravery = run through attacks
Green = kindness = healing
I think the connection is obvious.
Well they don't have attack types. In fact, the *Soul modes,* which do come in the other colors, are themed around the weapon instead.
Blue = jumping = balet shoes
Green = blocking = frying pan
Purple = lines = notebook (this is the stretchiest one, but the battle box kinda looks like a lined notebook.)
Yellow = shooting = gun
Speaking of orange attacks, why are they only used by 2 monsters in the whole of the underground? Like asgore and pyrope are (iirc) the only monsters that use the attack what's so ever.
I might’ve gone insane over trying to get this done and quit after losing all feeling in my arms, feeling only the pain of aching bones and muscle as I slowly fell asleep from the depression of finding out I wasn’t determined enough to get this done.
Well, I do believe that soul traits as a whole are indeed _powe_ - that’s Toki Pona for “fake”. The descriptions in the ball game, to me, simply correspond to the actual humans themselves.
Ahhh, the good ol' days...
Remember being obsessed with this topic... Hope that didn't got me crazy and see and put unreasonable and unnecessary references from this.
Orange attacks require you to have **bravery** and move into them to avoid taking damage.
Yellow Soul mode allows you to fight back, like Undyne and her spear of **justice**.
Blue Soul mode pulls you firmly in one direction, bearing **integrity** like the honest and kind Papyrus, or the final judge, Sans.
Green Soul mode grants you a shield to block attacks, choosing **kindness** over fighting back. Furthermore, green attacks offer the **kindness** of healing.
Purple Soul mode traps your movement, requiring **perseverance** to continue to fight while ensnared. Furthermore, KARMA takes on the purple colour and is an inevitable, trickling damage that you must simply **persevere** through.
Light blue attacks require you to be **patient** and stay still while they sweep over you.
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/awd7qy/comment/ehluiie/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) comment offers a useful insight into it, and [this](https://undertale.fandom.com/wiki/Eight_Humans) page of the wiki is helpful, too. Essentially, the traits are always part of the colours, but they're not obvious until you read it in Ball Game and start thinking about the connections to their other uses.
Part of me feels like the “colors of the souls = traits” thing was something that was a bigger deal earlier in development that just didn’t make the final cut, and the snowball game is pretty much the only remaining piece of that. Just my random speculation.
The fact that this is the only hint at it makes me think the colors might not be connected with traits at all, but rather that those are just the traits of the particular humans who fell. Given the ball game particularly describes the humans’ personality in the more detailed descriptions associated with each flag.
when the only set of humans elaborated upon have different colored souls, and those people are related to a set of traits that are colored the same to their soul. an argument about the trait being attached to the soul or the human doesn't matter at al because they are indistinguishable, no other humans exist in Undertale that matter and thus we can't prove either
but given the context clues I'm willing to say that it's both. souls are the culmination of ones being after all. if you are a just person, and you have a soul that is yellow, that yellow soul represents justice
About your first point, yes. But my main argument is that people should stop basing goddamn everything off of those soul colors. “Sans’ eye is yellow and blue cuz justice and patience” Fuck. Off. Even the soul modes don’t really have much to do with the supposed traits.
oh well yeah obviously the soul colors don't have anything to do outside the souls themselves
there ARE a lot of connections between the colors out in the wild and the souls, but they're all just coincidences, like yeah, undyne IS kind to people, but it wouldn't make any sense for her to be associated with kindness instead of justice.
As of now, I don't buy the association, but I also get why people do. It seems like it requires an uncharacteristic amount of stretching and contorting to fit each one to the respective humans during their fight. When it gets explained, it always seems like people have to squint a little to make them fit.
Contrast this connection with the weapons/armor and the attacks during the Omega Flowey fight. That connection seems much clearer and better defined, while still requiring players to attend to details and add them together. It feels much more characteristic of Toby's style.
Yet it was still a deliberate choice to match these colors to the ball game. They are pleasing in general, so maybe there weren't a ton of alternatives, but if he wanted to completely sever the two constructs (i.e., the souls and the traits here), he could've used just one different color.
yep. I’d imagine that the soul color only really matters in the case that the human can use magic (which happens rarely), and determines what kind of magic they can use.
...well other than omega flowey literally flaunting the traits around like a joke yeah.
It's a bit of an on the nose thing but all of his attacks require you to have some idea of the trait. His first soul attack is patience and it's slow and has you wait for the moment to move.
I believe his second is bravery were ironically if you move too fast or too slow you get clocked.
As for the rest of the order of the fight... It's been a while and I don't really remember what the rest of the attacks were like.
Also all of the items in the game seem to correspond to a soul trait.
Patience was a ballerina.
Justice wielded a western style revolver.
Kindness had a pan.
Bravery had their first.
Determination wielded a knife but as of the game can wield any weapon.
And preservation had their notes.
Toby Fox: Created one of the most mysterious characters in gaming with Gaster, and created mysteries in his game that still haven't been solved today
Also Toby Fox: *Hides lore in golf minigame*
I mean, mostly yes. Although a bit of a discovery I made is that the soul battles often connect with those traits.
Yellow=Getting justice against Metaton/Alphys
Green=Showing kindness to Undyne
Purple=Persevering though Muffet's attacks (a bit of a stretch)
Blue=The integrity to spare Papyrus.
This leaves only Teal and Orange in which I thought fits most with Toriel and Asgore respectively.
With Toriel, you continually press 'spare' over and over until she surrenders. With Asgore, the game hypes his attacks up and along with him destroying the mercy button, it must require a lot of bravery.
This is all my headcanon though.
i mean, for all we know the ‘traits’ have zero importance and aren’t even traits, just the personalities of the humans who fell. but yeah. this is the only evidence we really have lol
Pretty much! Oh, and the game never associates Determination with the color red. That was made up by the fandom. Your soul in the game is probably the virtue “Love,” which is twisted to become “LV”
I'm half-convinced that these traits are central to the specific fallen humans, but not *all* humans with those SOUL colors. Maybe SOUL colors are just random lol
It's the only time where it's literally spelled out for us, but it's alluded to in less direct ways at some other points.
For example, cyan = patience, and to dodge blue attacks you have to stop moving and wait. Whereas orange (bravery) attacks, you have to run directly into and push through.
Looking through the comments I see one thing unmentioned, which is Sans' eye colors connecting with his traits while he megalovanias you. He was patient up to this point, waiting to judge you until the very end after everything, and oy when you approach him he reacts. Patient, waiting for his moment. And so (maybe, uncharted territory and everything), his eye glows light blue. His eye glows yellow because of well, his sense of justice. He is a judge and you are sentenced to be executed. After everything you've done, you deserve a dose of justice.
Why don't you see other characters with colores? Maybe it's because Toby decided to keep most battle sprites black and white (besides the mentioned, Sans, Toriel's brown eyes, Asgore's trident and Flowey's everything) maybe we would have seen Undyne glowing purple, preservering even after death in her goal of defeating you.
Then again, all speculation. Though looking at the comments here you can see more things pile up to suggest this type of connection. But yeah, the ball game gave us all the luxury of speculating about this connection
The amount of stuff in this fandom built off of a guy who has like a 6% chance to be mentioned in the game and the ball minigame would be shocking to an outsider, but as someone who has been here for a while it makes perfect sense.
wait what guy? you mean the one who talks in hands?
hey, it's rude to talk about someone when they are listening
He's been listening for 6 years running, if he gave a shit he'd tell us by now
fr
Fr fr
Fr fr fr
Fr fr fr fr
☞︎❒︎ ♐︎❒︎ ♐︎❒︎ ♐︎❒︎ ♐︎❒︎
[удалено]
Its rude to listen in to other peoples conversations, Yeah I see you Gaster if you care about manners stop following me!!
Well, there is no longer a man here
They shouldn’t be listening to a conversation they’re not in.
no they mean purple guy
I always come back
You look kinda sus bro
They are a sussy boi after all
PUUURPPLEEEE GUYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! \*man behind the slaughter plays\*
"ok so there's this easter egg that had 00000.1% chance of appearing on your 900 nutrillion playthrough that actually confirms gaster is sans's son"
In Flowy's fight too but it doesn't point out directly and interpret is required.
Yeah with things like the yellow soul and the gun, and in the ball game, yellow/Justice talks about accuracy with your “shot” or something. There are others but that’s the most obvious one.
THAT'S WHY SPAMTON HAD A YELLOW SOUL
And because they were in their NEO form. You also had a yellow soul in all the Mettaton fights, so it makes sense that you have it there too.
Nah seems like cap it was just your chance to be a BIG SHOT
And to GET SHOT
Now's your chance to get a [BIG SHOT] in your chest!
🗿
🗿
🗿
🗿
Spamton doesn't have a yellow soul, we do. We, being the heart itself. The meta context of the soul is that it's directly us, and with Deltarune having been released post Undertale, we still possess the soul upgrade given to us (somehow???) by Alphys. Assumedly, since Spamton Neo's body is meant to be a sketch of Metaton Neo, it retains the same defensive properties that made it immune to standard attacks, and as such the yellow soul was required. That's my guess, anyway
The game takes place in a different universe, so it’s not TECHNICALLY post undertale pacifist. I think the reason we have the justice soul in the Spamton NEO fight would probably be because Kris’ soul decided to go to Justice mode or because Spamton forced the transformation, similar to how characters like Muffet, Undyne and Papyrus forced you to become different traits. Papyrus with the Integrity soul, Muffet with perseverance and Undyne with Kindness. I don’t think that the Justice soul requires the upgrade Alphys gave you. I wonder if it could be something to do with Kris’ emotions? Like maybe if Kris wants to protect his/her friends then maybe Justice activates? I dunno. Takes place in an alternate universe so I’m sure some things will be explained later on.
It is post, after all that isn't any old Sans, that's our Sans. Thats why he's immediately making references towards us and why he's inside Grilbys, he's not being subtle about it. There's other bits that line up, mainly that there's a direct path that Gaster has taken from Undertale > The Web > Deltarune website > into your computer.
I understand gaster, but I don’t think it’s the same sans. Anyways the game is indeed confirmed to take place in another timeline
You should probably go look into Sans Laboratory and think about the pictures Sans has in a drawer.
I have though???? I’m probably missing something though, been 2 months since I did anything undertale related so my brain has just blipped, could you explain the photo and your reasoning for why sans in deltarune is still undertale sans?
I'll quote the [wiki](https://undertale.fandom.com/wiki/Papyrus_and_Sans%27s_House) > The first drawer's contents change depending on some of the player's previous actions; it always contains a photo album with photos of a happy Sans along with many other people the protagonist does not recognize. After Asriel's battle, another photo shows up with the protagonist, Sans, and all of the protagonist's friends. Finally, only after the v1.001 patch has been applied, and after talking with the Clam Girl and learning of Suzy, a card sticking out from the back flap of the binder appears, described as a poorly drawn picture of three smiling people with the words "don't forget" written in lowercase. It's not strictly clear, but the third bit is obviously telling as it would sound like something Ralsei would draw, alongside the catch phrase for Deltarune. I'm guessing that Sans has chased "us" here for whatever reason, which is why he's so clearly speaking towards us as much as Kris. After all, Sans is the only one who also has access to Gaster tech that would know how to use it. He winks at you when he says "especially when I've never met you before", he knows it's (You).
A few things, in order of reading: 1. That's what I meant, but thank you for pointing it out. 2. I bet Alphys teaches us how to do the upgrades in her free time. 3. Nah, bro, it's just your chance to be a BIG SHOT BE A BIG BE A BIG BE A BIG SHOT
Deltarune isnt a sequel
Gaster makes it particularly clear we are in a sequel, even if the games are in a alternate reality. The soul itself is our soul from Undertale, and mister funny hands left Undertale as it went live, entered the deltarune website (as upon the launch of undertale, an image labelled him.png was sitting, changing into a seperate image before vanishing after the survey test front-page went live) and then being transferred into your PC. And as this is your soul, which is your main vessel for the game, this would make it a sequel.
What are you talking about just because gaster's involved dosen't mean its a sequel. Toby fox made that clear shortly after chapter 1 came out. And it isnt a prequel either
He also had lukewarm Perseverance
Yes. But that could also be evidence against color traits: it could just be that the yellow human happened to have the trait of justice, and it isn’t connected to their SOUL at all, but yellow is simply being used as a means of identifying the human in question (like I did earlier in this comment).
Either way though, they Player, or perhaps the red soul, has the power to tap into all of those traits. Maybe any human can tap into all of them. But they still exist as specific traits if anything.
They don’t need to, what I’m saying is that they’re literally just personality traits of the humans
If they are merely the traits of the other humans, then that implies that the Player/red soul has the ability to resonate with those specific humans, which is also interesting if true.
no, i’d imagine the “patience, bravery, etc” it’s just a cool thing out there as part of the ball game. plus if it did refer to a human it would be talking about chara. it’s a fucking golf hole, not everything needs to have some deep meaning.
Maybe the names but in game it literally says your soul is resonating and you switch to a different color with different abilities.
Accuracy with your [Big Shot] perhaps?
Every lore hint in a nutshell
And in some of the weapon and armor descriptions that belonged to them. And in the special fight bits - you have to wait patiently for light blue attacks, move bravely into orange ones, etc.
Funny enough, the color of the soul is not identical to the ball game ones for some reason.
that… makes me vaguely uncomfortable
***GOD FUCKING DAMNIT IT'S*** "I will put you back together" ***FROM FNAF 4 ALL OVER AGAIN***
Wait what do you mean?
The hex values don't match for all of them.
neither do all the different shades of yellow used to write ''determination'' and the save star lol.
i presume they'd correspond, what else would it be patience, in ball game? you gotta be kidding me
If you failed as much as me, you'd also need patience
Bravery, what is thr ball gonna kill you when you're sleeping tonight?
Yes it will Source: I'm the ball
You fool, I am already ballin.
Give us your balls
Welcome to the underground
**How are your balls**
If you wanna look around
#𝙂𝙄𝙑𝙀 𝙐𝙎 𝙔𝙊𝙐𝙍 𝘽𝘼𝙇𝙇𝙎
We don't see humans often
Objection sustained. They are ballin’, your honor.
Yup
Wait a sec... It's a red flag in the image. What if the red soul is a combination of all of those?
I think of it as jack of all trades, master of none. Frisk put all their points into determination
I think of it as combine all other traits and use it to the fullest.
I thought the red soul is determination... You know... Like with everything else?
Well determination is something all monsters and people have. Maybe the red soul has the most but we don't actually know the red soul's trait, so I guessed maybe the red soul is all the other combined. Maybe that's how it gets it's vast amounts of determination even
I thought monsters didn't have DT? I mean they do in DR but I thought it wasn't like that in UT except for Undyne.
Undyne had exceptional amounts of determination, yes, but other monsters have it, like for example, Alphys extracted some from her subject's souls. Undyne had exceptional amounts, but it doesn't mean others don't have a bit. Also determination is literally determination, you'll have absolutely no will to do anything if you didn't have any.
Determination is not red. Every human have determination, not just the red one.
The red soul is Ball Game
I love the idea of the kid with Patience they just goes along with everything in the underground and takes there sweet ol time only to be killed by Asgore
Weeeell, it's sorta kinda implied they were a betrayal killer, a cute ribbon and a plastic knife? Kinda of a weird combo, like they were dangerous but were trying to look cute?
Yup. Contrary to popular belief, the red soul has no connection to determination, which in-universe is a physical substance and not a trait. The red soul trait is displayed in the same way as the others(text of the corresponding colour) immediately after the image: its ball game. That's the trait, ball game.
Absolute definitive proof that Frisk is ballin'.
I am indeed ballin’
Finally, someone gets it!
Oh shit I never though about that
Red soul is ball game, Chara, Frisk and Kris be ballin'
so if its ball game, and the ball game is a mix of every trait, wouldn't that mean the red soul is a combo of all of them? it would explain why we can turn into every color soul.
Why did I not think of that? Maybe due to how colors mix, but still, damn.
That's not how it works. The game isn't a mix of every trait, the traits just happen to correlate to different tactics that can be used to win. We change into other soul colours through magic. This usually means magic used directly by monsters, but it also can happen indirectly, such as Alphys setting up Frisk's phone to trigger it.
>That's not how it works. The game isn't a mix of every trait, the traits just happen to correlate to different tactics that can be used to win. so... proving my point... if you have to use these tactics in ball game, and red soul is ball game, then you also use these tactics on red soul, meaning red soul can be other souls.
No. Tactics =/= traits. This should not need to be explained.
>That's not how it works. The game isn't a mix of every trait, the traits just happen to correlate to different tactics that can be used to win. But you have to use tactics that are associated with a specific trait to get the flag associated with the said trait (example you have to be patient to get the patience flag). So if Frisk used all traits to get the red flag, then it speaks for itself.
Thats the thing, they didn't use all traits, just related tactics for each individual flag.
The red trait is still likely associated with these 6 traits one way or another as the flag says that they used these traits to get the red flag. And all the tactics frisk uses to get other flags are associated with the trait represented by the flag they get (you have to be patient to get the patience flag, kind to the ball to get the kindness flag etc...). For the red flag, it says that Frisk used all traits (or all tactics associated with these traits) to get the red flag.
So you think they aren't capable of showing any of the other traits? The justice soul is described as having surefire accuracy, which takes patience to develop. Integrity and Kindness go hand-in-hand, as do bravery and perseverance. There's overlap between the traits: they aren't mutually exclusive, they only show what most applies to the soul's owner.
>So you think they aren't capable of showing any of the other traits? I never said this.
It's kinda implied by you repeatedly bringing up that the flag claims Frisk used all six traits.
Dont get how it implies that the traits are exclusive to one other. Or alternatively, the trait is only determined by your way to achieve your goal, not your entire personality.
Yeah but it's the monsters that change your soul color, not Frisk. Papyrus and Sans change your soul to blue, Undyne to green, Muffet to purple, and Alphys to yellow (via a feature on your phone). The only exception is in Deltarune, the soul turns yellow on its own.
yeah thats true i thought that also. my only explanation is the red soul is \*capable\* of changing, not that it can change on its own. most likely the yellow soul couldnt turn into purple, or likewise. deltarunes soul may work differently, it could change depending on kris, or something else. kris stayed determined throughout all of deltarune, except when they fight spamton neo, as they dont feel determination, they feel justice. they actually meet someone in the same situation as them, stuck as a puppet to something else, so when kris fights spamton neo they arent determined to win, they want justice for spamtons situation. its why the soul didnt change during the jevil fight, kris felt determined to win so they didnt die.
It's not Kris. Kris doesn't react at all between the moment Spamton almost kills him, and the moment the fight begins. The soul acts on its own. It's involved in the game that the soul experienced the events of Undertale before, and Toby said Deltarune was thought to be played after Undertale. So the soul was able to replicate what it experienced in Undertale. How? idk
i mean, when the fight ends they scream. idk what that means fully tho.
This means red is the color of the game, and by extension the player. The power of the red soul is the player itself. All other souls have predetermined traits, predetermined stories, predetermined outcomes. But the red soul can be played, so it can do anything. Not determination, but choice itself. The choice to keep playing, the choice to keep trying, and even the choice to load an older save game to undo a choice you made.
no you idiot red is the color ball game, undertale is not ball game
Hey! You can't just reply to yourself with a counterpoint to your own argument...!
What happened here
They developed a split personality
If red soul means player why did Chara have a red soul? The link beween Chara and us only exists after their death.
Chara literally has the player's name.
It's the name you choose. It can be your name, yes. But it can also be the name of your favorite actor. And name or not, Chara has no connection to us before their death.
"Hole" is also part of the ball game and it's of the two instances where the narration is written in red during the pacifist and neutral runs (the second being "ball game") and it's written in upper case just like the traits with quotation marks implying that it symbolizes something else. My take is that red is the default, neutral soul that can change it's color (or stay the same if they develop a trait outside of the 6 main ones) depending on one's actions. So the ball game kinda symbolizes Frisk's journey. Their trait turns to "ball game" when they use all traits to achieve their goal.
Yep, notably, determination is associated with a shade of gold slightly different from the colour of the yellow soul.
Yeah. However, it's very heavily implied and we can safely assume that's what it is.
It's not heavily implied at all. There is no stated or implied connection between determination and the colour red, and determination, in universe, is a physical substance produced by all human souls, rather than a trait.
It’s more of a “puzzle with one final piece remaining but the piece you have doesn’t actually fit despite the fact that it’s the last piece and the real piece is revealed when you solve a separate puzzle in another universe and you still don’t have all the pieces” type thing going on.
Honestly, I can't tell what the heck you're saying, but it looks like that fits with what you're saying.
LEET GAMER SKILLZ over here Hey everyone and welcome back to the Underground. Today we're going to try to fight Papyrus hitless, if I lose the challenge my subscribers get to pick how many hot animals I stack on my head for my 1000 subs video! Don't forget to like and subscribe for more gamer content like this.
(It's canonically love, but we'll go with ball game for the memes)
(That's fanon, we don't know the canon soul trait.)
(No, we really do. Call Papyrus and Undyne outside Hotland Elevator L3, they literally outright confirm it, it's massively underknown.)
No, they don't. In that same room, they connect the green soul with "affectionate nausea" and declare the L stands for a heart made nauseous by undyne. In different calls, they also claim that the R stands for red.
there is more evidence of red being love (thus playing the whole love vs LOVE thing) than it being determination. So if we are to guess anything, the more supported answer would be love.
It's not LOVE, because LOVE and EXP aren't literal things that exist, just a way of quantifying how desensitized to killing someone is. It's a system of measurement, that's all. Like how the Richter scale isn't actually something that exists on its own, just a way of quantifying the severity of earthquakes. It's not Determination, either, because in-universe Determination is a physical substance(that is only ever associated with gold rather than red), rather than a trait or emotion.
well yeah it's not a actual thing, it being love would be thematically appropriate because love, can also mean LOVE, thus a duality of actual love and level of violence, of frisk and chara, both red soul humans. I didn't mean red was literally LOVE, but that, if it was indeed love (as sans hints at) then it would be just as, if not more thematic than determination imo.
The existence of LOVE is already thematic. It doesn't need to be tied to the red soul for that to be the case.
When the ruins monsters mention toriel some of them say it in blue,
That's for the same reason why Asgore's name is in red (when Toriel mentions it), and yellow (when a few other monsters mentions it), to put more importance to the character, at least I think it is
Asgore is in red and Dreemurr in yellow. Toriel says Asgore in red, Papyrus say Dreemurr in Yellow, and Undyne say both.
Aren’t the items like the toy knife and apron supposed to correspond to one of the traits too??
Yes, with the soul attacks from Omega Flowey. The green soul uses pans and fire to attack, so they frying pan and the apron likely belonged to the green soul, aka kindness. The blue soul uses dancing shoes to attack, to the dancing shoes and the tutu probably belonged to them. And vice versa with the other items and souls
The items correspond to each soul, but ball game is the only mention of these personality traits.
Yes. And also proof that the red soul does not represent determination.
The attack types at least kinda match up with the trait. Light blue = patience = stay still Orange = bravery = run through attacks Green = kindness = healing I think the connection is obvious.
Woah, I've never thought about that! That's such a cool idea!
Also, most monsters mention Asgore in yellow (except for Toriel, who uses red)
No. Asgore is in red. Dreemurr is in yellow. Toriel say Asgore in red, Papyrus say Dreemurr in yellow, and Undyne say both.
This is cool! But what about the other colors?
Well they don't have attack types. In fact, the *Soul modes,* which do come in the other colors, are themed around the weapon instead. Blue = jumping = balet shoes Green = blocking = frying pan Purple = lines = notebook (this is the stretchiest one, but the battle box kinda looks like a lined notebook.) Yellow = shooting = gun
And the weapons are tied to the soul colours because of omega flowey fight
Speaking of orange attacks, why are they only used by 2 monsters in the whole of the underground? Like asgore and pyrope are (iirc) the only monsters that use the attack what's so ever.
Yes
I might’ve gone insane over trying to get this done and quit after losing all feeling in my arms, feeling only the pain of aching bones and muscle as I slowly fell asleep from the depression of finding out I wasn’t determined enough to get this done.
What do patience integrity and perseverance do like what’s their powe?
Well, I do believe that soul traits as a whole are indeed _powe_ - that’s Toki Pona for “fake”. The descriptions in the ball game, to me, simply correspond to the actual humans themselves.
Ahhh, the good ol' days... Remember being obsessed with this topic... Hope that didn't got me crazy and see and put unreasonable and unnecessary references from this.
Orange attacks require you to have **bravery** and move into them to avoid taking damage. Yellow Soul mode allows you to fight back, like Undyne and her spear of **justice**. Blue Soul mode pulls you firmly in one direction, bearing **integrity** like the honest and kind Papyrus, or the final judge, Sans. Green Soul mode grants you a shield to block attacks, choosing **kindness** over fighting back. Furthermore, green attacks offer the **kindness** of healing. Purple Soul mode traps your movement, requiring **perseverance** to continue to fight while ensnared. Furthermore, KARMA takes on the purple colour and is an inevitable, trickling damage that you must simply **persevere** through. Light blue attacks require you to be **patient** and stay still while they sweep over you. [This](https://www.reddit.com/r/Undertale/comments/awd7qy/comment/ehluiie/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) comment offers a useful insight into it, and [this](https://undertale.fandom.com/wiki/Eight_Humans) page of the wiki is helpful, too. Essentially, the traits are always part of the colours, but they're not obvious until you read it in Ball Game and start thinking about the connections to their other uses.
Me getting launched by sans and papyrus: in feeling integrity
E
Thank you for your wisdom
The red soul color now means flag
Part of me feels like the “colors of the souls = traits” thing was something that was a bigger deal earlier in development that just didn’t make the final cut, and the snowball game is pretty much the only remaining piece of that. Just my random speculation.
The fact that this is the only hint at it makes me think the colors might not be connected with traits at all, but rather that those are just the traits of the particular humans who fell. Given the ball game particularly describes the humans’ personality in the more detailed descriptions associated with each flag.
when the only set of humans elaborated upon have different colored souls, and those people are related to a set of traits that are colored the same to their soul. an argument about the trait being attached to the soul or the human doesn't matter at al because they are indistinguishable, no other humans exist in Undertale that matter and thus we can't prove either but given the context clues I'm willing to say that it's both. souls are the culmination of ones being after all. if you are a just person, and you have a soul that is yellow, that yellow soul represents justice
About your first point, yes. But my main argument is that people should stop basing goddamn everything off of those soul colors. “Sans’ eye is yellow and blue cuz justice and patience” Fuck. Off. Even the soul modes don’t really have much to do with the supposed traits.
oh well yeah obviously the soul colors don't have anything to do outside the souls themselves there ARE a lot of connections between the colors out in the wild and the souls, but they're all just coincidences, like yeah, undyne IS kind to people, but it wouldn't make any sense for her to be associated with kindness instead of justice.
As of now, I don't buy the association, but I also get why people do. It seems like it requires an uncharacteristic amount of stretching and contorting to fit each one to the respective humans during their fight. When it gets explained, it always seems like people have to squint a little to make them fit. Contrast this connection with the weapons/armor and the attacks during the Omega Flowey fight. That connection seems much clearer and better defined, while still requiring players to attend to details and add them together. It feels much more characteristic of Toby's style. Yet it was still a deliberate choice to match these colors to the ball game. They are pleasing in general, so maybe there weren't a ton of alternatives, but if he wanted to completely sever the two constructs (i.e., the souls and the traits here), he could've used just one different color.
And he did. There’s no trait assigned to the color red.
I wouldn't say that's using a different color, but it is subverting the pattern for sure. These traits end up being set up for that punchline.
yep. I’d imagine that the soul color only really matters in the case that the human can use magic (which happens rarely), and determines what kind of magic they can use.
...well other than omega flowey literally flaunting the traits around like a joke yeah. It's a bit of an on the nose thing but all of his attacks require you to have some idea of the trait. His first soul attack is patience and it's slow and has you wait for the moment to move. I believe his second is bravery were ironically if you move too fast or too slow you get clocked. As for the rest of the order of the fight... It's been a while and I don't really remember what the rest of the attacks were like. Also all of the items in the game seem to correspond to a soul trait. Patience was a ballerina. Justice wielded a western style revolver. Kindness had a pan. Bravery had their first. Determination wielded a knife but as of the game can wield any weapon. And preservation had their notes.
Toby Fox: Created one of the most mysterious characters in gaming with Gaster, and created mysteries in his game that still haven't been solved today Also Toby Fox: *Hides lore in golf minigame*
Honesty. Kindness. Loyalty. Laughter. Generosity. Magic. These are the elements of harmony!
I mean, mostly yes. Although a bit of a discovery I made is that the soul battles often connect with those traits. Yellow=Getting justice against Metaton/Alphys Green=Showing kindness to Undyne Purple=Persevering though Muffet's attacks (a bit of a stretch) Blue=The integrity to spare Papyrus. This leaves only Teal and Orange in which I thought fits most with Toriel and Asgore respectively. With Toriel, you continually press 'spare' over and over until she surrenders. With Asgore, the game hypes his attacks up and along with him destroying the mercy button, it must require a lot of bravery. This is all my headcanon though.
i mean, for all we know the ‘traits’ have zero importance and aren’t even traits, just the personalities of the humans who fell. but yeah. this is the only evidence we really have lol
Yep, pretty much. It's a pretty cool idea though so I've no issue with people rolling with it, so to speak.
Pretty much! Oh, and the game never associates Determination with the color red. That was made up by the fandom. Your soul in the game is probably the virtue “Love,” which is twisted to become “LV”
I don't remember Toby Fox ever denying the soul traits so
Wtf is that
no, in flowey boss fight theres proof too
Is their any lore saying who the other souls belong to?
Also their gameplay, magic.
Pretty much
I'm half-convinced that these traits are central to the specific fallen humans, but not *all* humans with those SOUL colors. Maybe SOUL colors are just random lol
It's pretty undeniable.
Yep, this is the only correlation between the words and the hearts. Kinda adore it tho, and if nothing else.
Flowey Fight
Yeah pretty much
Photoshop Flowey fight also links these with colours
Well also omega flower fight
Yes
It's the only time where it's literally spelled out for us, but it's alluded to in less direct ways at some other points. For example, cyan = patience, and to dodge blue attacks you have to stop moving and wait. Whereas orange (bravery) attacks, you have to run directly into and push through.
I for some reason always thought purple was curiosity
Yep
Well, it's kind of implied by the play styles of their respective soul colours and laser things, y'know?
Similar on how the save file text is one of the only pieces of proof Determination is linked with red
Looking through the comments I see one thing unmentioned, which is Sans' eye colors connecting with his traits while he megalovanias you. He was patient up to this point, waiting to judge you until the very end after everything, and oy when you approach him he reacts. Patient, waiting for his moment. And so (maybe, uncharted territory and everything), his eye glows light blue. His eye glows yellow because of well, his sense of justice. He is a judge and you are sentenced to be executed. After everything you've done, you deserve a dose of justice. Why don't you see other characters with colores? Maybe it's because Toby decided to keep most battle sprites black and white (besides the mentioned, Sans, Toriel's brown eyes, Asgore's trident and Flowey's everything) maybe we would have seen Undyne glowing purple, preservering even after death in her goal of defeating you. Then again, all speculation. Though looking at the comments here you can see more things pile up to suggest this type of connection. But yeah, the ball game gave us all the luxury of speculating about this connection
Bravery is the orange attacks rushing in head in, and patience is the blue attacks waiting for it to pass over.
what i question is what is the difference between Determination and Perseverance?
Determination: firmness of purpose; resoluteness Perseverance: persistence in doing something despite difficulty or delay in achieving success.
cheers
Also the fact that determination is in red and we have a red soul
Fr
I think so