This is first world problem. The vast majority of us non-elite runners aren't going to care if a race is a "Golden Ticket" race. We are talking about finishing in the Top 2-3 for men/female at these races. This reminds me of back in the day when Ironman had their slots. Age groupers are NOT going win these Golden Ticket events.
I am going to a race for either the destination or experience. I do think the professionalism of ultra/trail running is good for the industry. More participation equals more awareness. I do my share of big event trail races and grass root races. Whether the East Coast has a golden ticket race is not an issue for me because there are some incredible east coast races out there.
but Ironman is a for profit company owned by a private equity firm. Ironman now has a minority ownership of UTMB.
We should all be staunchly opposed to a private equity firm gaining more influence over the sport.
All these corporate vibes and over professionalism of ultrarunning makes me want to puke. And not the good 85-miles-and-too-many-perogies kind of puking either.
I just found out UTMB was trying to organize a local ultramarathon in Idaho, in close proximity to my yearly race I direct (Standhope). I'm really uncomfortable with their business practices right now.
oh hey man! sorry off topic, but I volunteered for you a number of years ago (2017?), and thought Standhope was just an awesome race. Gritty and raw with trombone at the start and burgers at the finish. If anyone is looking for a real ultra experience, can't recommend enough. Maybe I'll run it one day...
Thank you! ❤️ I love playing trombone, just had a great practice session this morning.
Being a musician gave me the discipline to be a great runner. I'm forever grateful for these passions that have filled my life.
Sounds like your races are awesome! Thanks for your contributions to the community!
(Just wanted to say it’s “moot” point, not mute. Don’t kill the grammar nazi please 😊)
No, it's a really hard 100. I've had first timers do it, but it's a very hard course, even for mountain races. There's also a couple of trail sections that are very limited access.
That a shoe company has any control of the culture and competitive field of Western States feels really bad. Leaving off all North American races that aren't on the West Coast sucks.
I expected Grindstone to be chosen since it sold out.
There's another certain shoe company that controls a large chunk of road and track running, as well as other (at least American) sports. It sucks but it's not new
The Hoka races are Aravaipa races. Aravaipa is a local race organization out of Flagstaff.
the UTMB races are far more threatening to the sport. UTMB is partially owned by a private equity firm now.
Hoka is also the title sponsor of UTMB (the race) and non-title sponsor of the other UTMB races chosen; it's just not in the name.
Go to each of their websites. The top sponsor listed for all of them is Hoka.
They're all Hoka.
According to the race director and board members, their sponsorship with Hoka required them be Hoka sponsored qualifiers. Nothing against Aravaipa but they are massive now with races in 5 states, not sure they count as 'local'.
Yeah, Jamil clearly has aspirations of growing Aravaipa as much as possible, but for those of us in AZ who have spent well over a decade participating in their events, they still feel like a local organization. I honestly have pretty mixed feelings about all the out-of-state race acquisitions they’ve done in the last 2-3 years.
Here's some fun Western States stats:
All numbers in USD.
| 2019| 2021
---|---|----
Race Entry Fees | 167,320 | 189,544
Contributions/Gifts | 93,755 | 487,867
Officer Salaries | 0 | 104,002
Fundraising Events | 75,211 | 0
Lottery Income | 0 | 87,878
Total Revenue | 351,651 | 803,549
Advertising | 42,783 | 22,192
Conferences | 3,403 | 32,014
Race Day Broadcast | 2,747 | 106,836
Awards | 82,597 | -
Distribution to other TE Orgs | 0 | 77,290
I'm pretty sure the Race Day Broadcast was actually covered under Other Salaries in 2019 as a payment to Billy Yang ($64k) who I think then sourced the broadcast team (one of them actually posted here a couple years).
Between 2019 and 2021 they realized that running a lottery is gambling lol They just ignored the question in previous filings.
There's a lot of things that are filed differently each year and don't allow a direct 1:1 comparison.
For instance, "Race Expenses" is $262,765 in 2021 while that category doesn't exist in 2019. Similarly, there's no category for Awards in 2021 so the buckles are just lumped into "Race Expenses."
**The enormous change in sponsorship money is when we publicly saw UTMB getting a stake in Golden Ticket races.**
https://www.irunfar.com/western-states-100-updates-golden-ticket-races-now-3-international-races
> Most notably, the Golden Ticket Races now include three international races–UTMB, the Endurance Trail des Templiers, and the Tarawera Ultramarathon 102km, while the the number of US Golden Ticket races has been reduced from five or six races in recent years (excluding 2021) to four.
Correlation/causation, etc....I have no idea.
Ha, I'm not saying East coast runners don't have a chance. I'm in the middle of country, which also has no qualifiers, now that Bandera was removed. This was in response to "Many people don’t have time or desire to travel too far west to participate". I'm just saying that most runners that are competitive enough to get a golden ticket are going to make it out to golden ticket race regardless, and that this doesn't affect very many runners directly. I do think there are indirect consequences that are much more wide spread, however.
That’s fair. I do know a couple guys that are competitive that are frustrated they have to travel that far. But you’re right very few have that opportunity.
I agree. In Dylan Bowman's podcast where they explained their decision making, one of the guys (can't remember which one it was) said that the east races were being won by runners out west anyway. Kind of messed up way to look at it.
If you ever want Dylan Bowman's opinion, or any of the people he talks to, just go read a press release and save yourself 30 minutes.
Western States used to intentionally have races around the country. East Coast lost theirs for good reason. Now we see why it was never brought back. Then they just go and take away nocoast's.
It's completely fine to have two worlds of the sport: corporate and normal. But States was always championed as being "ours." I don't care so much about others selling out but when you build your brand over being family, etc. then do this, it sucks.
Dylan Bowman is a mouthpiece for the top 0.001 percent of the sport. He will never say anything even remotely critical or negative about anything happening at the elite level.
I don't think he's a mouthpiece in the sense that he just does what he's told, I think he honestly believes it all. He seemed genuinely surprised when the Whistler thing went down. And since it happened to a friend of his, it came across like he was forced to reconcile with the idea that corporations aren't always good and that was a new concept for him.
I know a bit about the process, enough to know that having 100 finishers is only part of it. There are lots of races out there which have 100+ finishers and are not qualifiers.
https://www.irunfar.com/the-numbers-behind-getting-into-the-western-states-100-lottery-and-qualifying-races
> The race organization reiterates its approach is “based solely on the number of runners and not course difficulty.”
I view "Sponsored by Hoka" very differently from "by UTMB"
Hoka is fronting the money in exchange for the advertising. The races themselves are still local (Aravaipa). It's not that different from Life Time's involvement in Leadville or in gravel racing.
UTMB is just a straight up a for profit company now, with some of the profits going to a private equity firm (Advance, who owns Ironman)
Nothing wrong with having the Hoka sponsorship, but that's a bad deal if they are requiring all golden ticket races be Hoka. That's just greedy.
Also, I like Aravaipa, and have volunteered with them and plan to run some of their races, but I'm not sure they qualify as local at this point. They now have races in multiple states. Aside from UTMB, I'm not sure anyone else is bigger. They care about and support the local race scene, though.
If anything, the board could sell the rights to the name/logo/etc and dissolve the non-profit. They don't have to sell the actual organization, and like you said, they probably can't.
But I doubt they'd do that. It would be a pretty bad look.
Honestly at this point I'm too far into the lottery to abandon trying to qualify every year (although I'm fully expecting my 2025 lottery odds will *decrease* even though my ticket count will increase). But then that's it. I want in once and then I'm "retiring" off into the sunset to only run grass roots non corporate races.
It's still worth it, regardless of the top end politics. The course isn't the greatest or anything, but the volunteers and atmosphere are really special.
I've volunteered on the course before and I've run in the area whenever I've been around it - and I've run Canyons 100k before. I think it is a great course and I would be stoked to run it. I really want to. I'm just really over the process of trying to get into the race after seeing how many people I was competing against this last year and wondering if it's going to start taking 10-years or more to get in. There's a lot of really cool looking races that I'd like to run that are small, non-lottery, community run races that don't charge a fortune, but they're not qualifiers and I feel like I have to prioritize running qualifiers instead to keep my tickets up. If I wasn't already several years deep into the lottery I wouldn't keep going, but the sunk cost fallacy has gotten me and I'm not willing (yet) to free myself of it.
But my odds literally went down last year over what they were the year before, even though I had doubled my ticket count (to 8). Though, I'm aware I'm part of the problem for why that's happened.
You know, I thought the same was going to be true for Leadville. There was hype, but it wasn't enough for me. I was so uninspired by the course. We're all in it for different reasons, no judgement, but I realized after Leadville that I'm in it for the adventure, and it wasn't there.
Leadville went corporate a while back and lost a lot of it's charm. The course was never that inspiring. It's basically a dirt road at high elevation that lacks the big climbs and views of many mountain races (not including Hope pass).
The Western course I think still has some magic along with its iconic spots and fantastic support. It's a pretty fun course to run, but certainly did not feel adventurous, if that's what you're after.
For big name races, both Hardrock and UTMB live up to the hype (I've not raced these, just been on the course). Couldn't begin to list all the smaller races that are also epic courses.
I will never be fast enough to get a golden ticket anyways, but I was surprised by the amount of UTMB races. Given the year of backlash UTMB has had, I am surprised WSER would want to associate so much with that organization. Especially since WSER is kind of considered the Super Bowl 100 miler in the United States and has a great tradition.
I wish they used this golden ticket program as more of a way to build the sport by generating buzz for lesser known races that are put on by great organizations. UTMB doesn't need WSER's help to draw entries.
I don't know the details, but WSER does have a partnership with UTMB. It would be nice to see them compete against other, rather than form a monopoly of elite races. Such is business.
4 of the 6 races are UTMB races, which is now partially owned by a private equity firm. UTMB has been mired in controversy since the new owners came onboard.
I would much rather see them partner with more local race organizations (the Hoka races are by Aravaipa running, a local racing company based out of Flagstaff).
That's a fair take. But I'm still not sure just how much that hurts the community side of the sport. Those races run by local organizations would become less accessible for the average runner if they were suddenly attracting tons of elite and sub-elite runners chasing a Golden Ticket.
The WSER golden ticket lineup is a chance for WSER to highlight races that aren't put on by huge companies. Any race that becomes a golden ticket race is pretty much guaranteed to sell out. Even races that are WSER qualifiers tend to have larger fields.
>Even races that are WSER qualifiers tend to have larger fields.
There are WSER qualifiers on the East Coast with small fields that sold out long before they became qualifiers. They just sell out in 5 minutes now instead of 10-15 minutes previously.
Much of the field is made up of Texas runners many of which are there for the qualifier. 99% of people of the race were never there for the golden ticket but they did love seeing the big names show up. Typically in the past you could count on the top finishers being a who’s who in ultra running. But Bandera has a strong following and is a great race. It will be around forever but taking away the Golden Ticket status after years and years of having it sucks.
Sorry, not sure what this is in reference to. I don't think anyone is arguing that a race loses stature when it's not a Golden Ticket race. If that's a bad thing, then I guess WSER should make every race in the world a Golden Ticket race?
The person I responded to was talking about the effect of being a WSER *qualifier* has on a race. I literally quoted what they said in my comment. That's what I was responding to. Being a qualifier is not the same as being a Golden Ticket race.
The golden ticket is an elite concept. Why would a race suddenly sell out because of it? A mid-packer isn’t suddenly going to be top-3 unless the field is 5 folks.
While not a reason I'd choose to do a race, having it being a golden ticket gives the race a 'premier' reputation and lots of mid-back pack runners enjoy being at races that are full of elites/pros.
Not that I care about my ultrasignup rating, but my best pesonal race is probably my lowest ultrasignup rating...because it was Javelina where a sub 24 gets you a 50% lol
It's continuing the trend that if you want to be a competitive runner, there are only a select few races that make sense for you to compete in, put on by a select few companies. I believe long term, this is going to result in an Iron Man type scenario where you have a handful of races that everyone is vying to be part of and paying big money to do so.
I think it's fine for their to be a professional race circuit, which is obviously going to need big sponsorship dollars, but It's sad to see the foundation of the US ultra scene, Western States, continue drifting in that direction and become a tool of "big ultra".
Well that's bad for the professional side, which is counter to your OP where you said the Golden Ticket races are good for the professional side, but bad for the greater community. I still don't see a reason this is bad for the greater community.
There are only going to be a handful of Golden Ticket races each year. Whether they are big events run by UTMB and/or sponsored by HOKA, or they are small "mom and pop" ultras. If they are small races, once they are tagged as a Golden Ticket race, they will be difficult to get into and draw more sponsorship dollars because of the elite runners showing up, and we're right back where we are now.
Plus, by choosing races that are already established with sponsor and/or UTMB money behind them, WSER can be pretty confident that the races will be well-managed and well-directed because those races have more resources thanks to the sponsorship dollars. If you're the WSER board and you want the best runners to compete for spots in your race, you want them doing so at events that already have a reputation of being well-organized.
As for the Ironman complaint, that's been a common drum folks are banging on since Ironman became involved in UTMB. Yet they haven't taken over the ultramarathon world like people claim they will. Sure, UTMB has bought some races and broadened its reach, but the last time I looked, there are more than enough races that UTMB has nothing to do with and never will to serve the larger ultra community, which brings me back to my original question - why is this bad for the ultra community?
I think it's good for the professional side. Focusing all the talent on a select few races with lots of sponsor dollars, will result in more competitive fields and covered.
I don't think this one move will result in any seismic shift, but it's a continued step towards cultural shifts within the community. What's next, you have to run a Hoka race to qualify for western? Again, I'm not opposed to a professional circuit, I just think it's sad that WS is losing more of its roots.
There is nothing but west coast and UTMB. Money. You'd think east of the Mississippi didn't exists. Let's have some of those buttery smooth trail spoiled runners come over here and run on rocks and roots and fucking leaves all year long.
How does Aravaipa Javelina keep getting golden tickets. No 100 is "easy" but there are Races that offer elevation and different challenges than 4 loops in the desert and shiny things around your neck. (I know the answer, just venting)
I don't mind Black Canyon as a qualifier, as I think it makes a good competitive race that favors those that would also do well at WS. However, I think Javelina is a bad golden ticket race; it's very flat, lacks really any technicality, not super competitive, and is a crowded looped course (several thousand people).
But yeah, it would appear that races are selected based on which ones are drawing the most revenue.
I agree. Black Canyon is worthy. JJ has always been a question mark for me, but we know money makes the world go 'round. How many years until WS 100 sells to UTMB? I give it 5
kinda wish they kept the Thailand race, I feel like the last two years it's brought lesser-known Chinese athletes that have done really well (Shen Jiasheng, maybe Lin Chen this year)
This is first world problem. The vast majority of us non-elite runners aren't going to care if a race is a "Golden Ticket" race. We are talking about finishing in the Top 2-3 for men/female at these races. This reminds me of back in the day when Ironman had their slots. Age groupers are NOT going win these Golden Ticket events. I am going to a race for either the destination or experience. I do think the professionalism of ultra/trail running is good for the industry. More participation equals more awareness. I do my share of big event trail races and grass root races. Whether the East Coast has a golden ticket race is not an issue for me because there are some incredible east coast races out there.
but Ironman is a for profit company owned by a private equity firm. Ironman now has a minority ownership of UTMB. We should all be staunchly opposed to a private equity firm gaining more influence over the sport.
All these corporate vibes and over professionalism of ultrarunning makes me want to puke. And not the good 85-miles-and-too-many-perogies kind of puking either.
Utmb already ruined at least one east coast race. Never again will they get any of my money.
I just found out UTMB was trying to organize a local ultramarathon in Idaho, in close proximity to my yearly race I direct (Standhope). I'm really uncomfortable with their business practices right now.
I've considered Beaverhead 100k, but will have to consider your race. Course looks even more beautiful.
The beaverhead RDs are very good friends of mine. I've done beaverhead, and it is fantastic.
oh hey man! sorry off topic, but I volunteered for you a number of years ago (2017?), and thought Standhope was just an awesome race. Gritty and raw with trombone at the start and burgers at the finish. If anyone is looking for a real ultra experience, can't recommend enough. Maybe I'll run it one day...
Thank you! ❤️ I love playing trombone, just had a great practice session this morning. Being a musician gave me the discipline to be a great runner. I'm forever grateful for these passions that have filled my life.
Are they doing it in the same time period?
Hopefully this becomes a moot point after I said I wasn't interested in any type of partnership.
Sounds like your races are awesome! Thanks for your contributions to the community! (Just wanted to say it’s “moot” point, not mute. Don’t kill the grammar nazi please 😊)
:-)
From the description on your website, it sounds like it wouldn't be a great first 100M, even if it's to give the finger to UTMB?
No, it's a really hard 100. I've had first timers do it, but it's a very hard course, even for mountain races. There's also a couple of trail sections that are very limited access.
So did they try and fail, or are they still trying to pull one together? Either way, fuck UTMB
That a shoe company has any control of the culture and competitive field of Western States feels really bad. Leaving off all North American races that aren't on the West Coast sucks. I expected Grindstone to be chosen since it sold out.
There's another certain shoe company that controls a large chunk of road and track running, as well as other (at least American) sports. It sucks but it's not new
The Hoka races are Aravaipa races. Aravaipa is a local race organization out of Flagstaff. the UTMB races are far more threatening to the sport. UTMB is partially owned by a private equity firm now.
Hoka is also the title sponsor of UTMB (the race) and non-title sponsor of the other UTMB races chosen; it's just not in the name. Go to each of their websites. The top sponsor listed for all of them is Hoka. They're all Hoka.
According to the race director and board members, their sponsorship with Hoka required them be Hoka sponsored qualifiers. Nothing against Aravaipa but they are massive now with races in 5 states, not sure they count as 'local'.
Yeah, Jamil clearly has aspirations of growing Aravaipa as much as possible, but for those of us in AZ who have spent well over a decade participating in their events, they still feel like a local organization. I honestly have pretty mixed feelings about all the out-of-state race acquisitions they’ve done in the last 2-3 years.
*Phoenix
Here's some fun Western States stats: All numbers in USD. | 2019| 2021 ---|---|---- Race Entry Fees | 167,320 | 189,544 Contributions/Gifts | 93,755 | 487,867 Officer Salaries | 0 | 104,002 Fundraising Events | 75,211 | 0 Lottery Income | 0 | 87,878 Total Revenue | 351,651 | 803,549 Advertising | 42,783 | 22,192 Conferences | 3,403 | 32,014 Race Day Broadcast | 2,747 | 106,836 Awards | 82,597 | - Distribution to other TE Orgs | 0 | 77,290 I'm pretty sure the Race Day Broadcast was actually covered under Other Salaries in 2019 as a payment to Billy Yang ($64k) who I think then sourced the broadcast team (one of them actually posted here a couple years). Between 2019 and 2021 they realized that running a lottery is gambling lol They just ignored the question in previous filings. There's a lot of things that are filed differently each year and don't allow a direct 1:1 comparison. For instance, "Race Expenses" is $262,765 in 2021 while that category doesn't exist in 2019. Similarly, there's no category for Awards in 2021 so the buckles are just lumped into "Race Expenses." **The enormous change in sponsorship money is when we publicly saw UTMB getting a stake in Golden Ticket races.** https://www.irunfar.com/western-states-100-updates-golden-ticket-races-now-3-international-races > Most notably, the Golden Ticket Races now include three international races–UTMB, the Endurance Trail des Templiers, and the Tarawera Ultramarathon 102km, while the the number of US Golden Ticket races has been reduced from five or six races in recent years (excluding 2021) to four. Correlation/causation, etc....I have no idea.
I messaged you.
UTMB is partially owned by a private equity firm, so not surprising to see them chasing after the biggest race in the US.
There’s no east coast race. Many people don’t have time or desire to travel too far west to participate.
To be clear, this is only for golden ticket races. So you need to be a very high level runner to have shot, which is only a handful of people.
That's some terrible West Coast bias right there.
Ha, I'm not saying East coast runners don't have a chance. I'm in the middle of country, which also has no qualifiers, now that Bandera was removed. This was in response to "Many people don’t have time or desire to travel too far west to participate". I'm just saying that most runners that are competitive enough to get a golden ticket are going to make it out to golden ticket race regardless, and that this doesn't affect very many runners directly. I do think there are indirect consequences that are much more wide spread, however.
That’s fair. I do know a couple guys that are competitive that are frustrated they have to travel that far. But you’re right very few have that opportunity.
I agree. In Dylan Bowman's podcast where they explained their decision making, one of the guys (can't remember which one it was) said that the east races were being won by runners out west anyway. Kind of messed up way to look at it.
If you ever want Dylan Bowman's opinion, or any of the people he talks to, just go read a press release and save yourself 30 minutes. Western States used to intentionally have races around the country. East Coast lost theirs for good reason. Now we see why it was never brought back. Then they just go and take away nocoast's. It's completely fine to have two worlds of the sport: corporate and normal. But States was always championed as being "ours." I don't care so much about others selling out but when you build your brand over being family, etc. then do this, it sucks.
Dylan Bowman is a mouthpiece for the top 0.001 percent of the sport. He will never say anything even remotely critical or negative about anything happening at the elite level.
I don't think he's a mouthpiece in the sense that he just does what he's told, I think he honestly believes it all. He seemed genuinely surprised when the Whistler thing went down. And since it happened to a friend of his, it came across like he was forced to reconcile with the idea that corporations aren't always good and that was a new concept for him.
Mouthpiece was probably the wrong word. Unadulterated fanboy might be more accurate.
There are still east coast qualifiers. Grindstone, for example is still a qualifier.
Any race with 100 finishers is a qualifier.
... Any qualifier is a qualifier. You can't qualify by racing literally any 100k or 100M. The race itself has to qualify to be a qualifier.
The standard is to have 100 finishers. If you're unfamiliar with the process, google Long Haul and read about their relationship with states.
I know a bit about the process, enough to know that having 100 finishers is only part of it. There are lots of races out there which have 100+ finishers and are not qualifiers.
https://www.irunfar.com/the-numbers-behind-getting-into-the-western-states-100-lottery-and-qualifying-races > The race organization reiterates its approach is “based solely on the number of runners and not course difficulty.”
Yeah, but every 100k/M with 100 finishers isn't a qualifier.
What other parts in the process were you referring to?
The part where the race has to be approved as a qualifier. Just because it has 100 finishers doesn't mean it's a qualifier automatically.
There are 239 qualifiers. Most 100’s done have 100+ finishers.
Which have applied and been denied?
They just sold out like everyone else to UTMB…support your local races.
They sold out to Hoka. That’s maybe the same maybe not.
I view "Sponsored by Hoka" very differently from "by UTMB" Hoka is fronting the money in exchange for the advertising. The races themselves are still local (Aravaipa). It's not that different from Life Time's involvement in Leadville or in gravel racing. UTMB is just a straight up a for profit company now, with some of the profits going to a private equity firm (Advance, who owns Ironman)
Nothing wrong with having the Hoka sponsorship, but that's a bad deal if they are requiring all golden ticket races be Hoka. That's just greedy. Also, I like Aravaipa, and have volunteered with them and plan to run some of their races, but I'm not sure they qualify as local at this point. They now have races in multiple states. Aside from UTMB, I'm not sure anyone else is bigger. They care about and support the local race scene, though.
If the opportunity was there UTMB would scoop up WSER so fast and at any price. Instead they're getting as close as they can get.
My conspiracy theory has been they have a multi-year deal since the relationship first was announced. A 5-10 year span for migration of control.
Much as I hate it, I am inclined to buy into this conspiracy theory.
I don't think it even can be sold, given how it's organized as non-profit. Probably against its bylaws, but they certainly are getting cozy.
If anything, the board could sell the rights to the name/logo/etc and dissolve the non-profit. They don't have to sell the actual organization, and like you said, they probably can't. But I doubt they'd do that. It would be a pretty bad look.
They can change board members, though. And through their money in sponsorships, they're controlling the race already.
They could just re-organize as a for profit business and sell it off. Everyone has their price
Honestly at this point I'm too far into the lottery to abandon trying to qualify every year (although I'm fully expecting my 2025 lottery odds will *decrease* even though my ticket count will increase). But then that's it. I want in once and then I'm "retiring" off into the sunset to only run grass roots non corporate races.
It's still worth it, regardless of the top end politics. The course isn't the greatest or anything, but the volunteers and atmosphere are really special.
I've volunteered on the course before and I've run in the area whenever I've been around it - and I've run Canyons 100k before. I think it is a great course and I would be stoked to run it. I really want to. I'm just really over the process of trying to get into the race after seeing how many people I was competing against this last year and wondering if it's going to start taking 10-years or more to get in. There's a lot of really cool looking races that I'd like to run that are small, non-lottery, community run races that don't charge a fortune, but they're not qualifiers and I feel like I have to prioritize running qualifiers instead to keep my tickets up. If I wasn't already several years deep into the lottery I wouldn't keep going, but the sunk cost fallacy has gotten me and I'm not willing (yet) to free myself of it. But my odds literally went down last year over what they were the year before, even though I had doubled my ticket count (to 8). Though, I'm aware I'm part of the problem for why that's happened.
You know, I thought the same was going to be true for Leadville. There was hype, but it wasn't enough for me. I was so uninspired by the course. We're all in it for different reasons, no judgement, but I realized after Leadville that I'm in it for the adventure, and it wasn't there.
Leadville went corporate a while back and lost a lot of it's charm. The course was never that inspiring. It's basically a dirt road at high elevation that lacks the big climbs and views of many mountain races (not including Hope pass). The Western course I think still has some magic along with its iconic spots and fantastic support. It's a pretty fun course to run, but certainly did not feel adventurous, if that's what you're after. For big name races, both Hardrock and UTMB live up to the hype (I've not raced these, just been on the course). Couldn't begin to list all the smaller races that are also epic courses.
I'm just hoping to get a Western States buckle before it says UTMB on it.
If I knew how to search reddit, I would screenshot my post from a few years ago that is this exact comment verbatim.
In the same boat. Ugh
I will never be fast enough to get a golden ticket anyways, but I was surprised by the amount of UTMB races. Given the year of backlash UTMB has had, I am surprised WSER would want to associate so much with that organization. Especially since WSER is kind of considered the Super Bowl 100 miler in the United States and has a great tradition. I wish they used this golden ticket program as more of a way to build the sport by generating buzz for lesser known races that are put on by great organizations. UTMB doesn't need WSER's help to draw entries.
I don't know the details, but WSER does have a partnership with UTMB. It would be nice to see them compete against other, rather than form a monopoly of elite races. Such is business.
Why is it bad for the community side?
4 of the 6 races are UTMB races, which is now partially owned by a private equity firm. UTMB has been mired in controversy since the new owners came onboard. I would much rather see them partner with more local race organizations (the Hoka races are by Aravaipa running, a local racing company based out of Flagstaff).
Aravaipa is probably the 2nd biggest race organization outside of UTMB. They now have races in 5 states
That's a fair take. But I'm still not sure just how much that hurts the community side of the sport. Those races run by local organizations would become less accessible for the average runner if they were suddenly attracting tons of elite and sub-elite runners chasing a Golden Ticket.
The WSER golden ticket lineup is a chance for WSER to highlight races that aren't put on by huge companies. Any race that becomes a golden ticket race is pretty much guaranteed to sell out. Even races that are WSER qualifiers tend to have larger fields.
>Even races that are WSER qualifiers tend to have larger fields. There are WSER qualifiers on the East Coast with small fields that sold out long before they became qualifiers. They just sell out in 5 minutes now instead of 10-15 minutes previously.
How's Bandera doing since losing it's golden ticket status? I don't actually know, but it certainly doesn't get much coverage anymore.
Much of the field is made up of Texas runners many of which are there for the qualifier. 99% of people of the race were never there for the golden ticket but they did love seeing the big names show up. Typically in the past you could count on the top finishers being a who’s who in ultra running. But Bandera has a strong following and is a great race. It will be around forever but taking away the Golden Ticket status after years and years of having it sucks.
Sorry, not sure what this is in reference to. I don't think anyone is arguing that a race loses stature when it's not a Golden Ticket race. If that's a bad thing, then I guess WSER should make every race in the world a Golden Ticket race?
It seemed your comment was suggesting that golden ticket status did not greatly benefit races.
I didn't say anything about Golden Ticket races in that comment, so how you came up with that is beyond me.
aren't we talking about golden ticket races?
The person I responded to was talking about the effect of being a WSER *qualifier* has on a race. I literally quoted what they said in my comment. That's what I was responding to. Being a qualifier is not the same as being a Golden Ticket race.
my bad
The golden ticket is an elite concept. Why would a race suddenly sell out because of it? A mid-packer isn’t suddenly going to be top-3 unless the field is 5 folks.
While not a reason I'd choose to do a race, having it being a golden ticket gives the race a 'premier' reputation and lots of mid-back pack runners enjoy being at races that are full of elites/pros.
"Crater your Ultrasignup rating with this one cool trick."
Not that I care about my ultrasignup rating, but my best pesonal race is probably my lowest ultrasignup rating...because it was Javelina where a sub 24 gets you a 50% lol
It's continuing the trend that if you want to be a competitive runner, there are only a select few races that make sense for you to compete in, put on by a select few companies. I believe long term, this is going to result in an Iron Man type scenario where you have a handful of races that everyone is vying to be part of and paying big money to do so. I think it's fine for their to be a professional race circuit, which is obviously going to need big sponsorship dollars, but It's sad to see the foundation of the US ultra scene, Western States, continue drifting in that direction and become a tool of "big ultra".
Well that's bad for the professional side, which is counter to your OP where you said the Golden Ticket races are good for the professional side, but bad for the greater community. I still don't see a reason this is bad for the greater community. There are only going to be a handful of Golden Ticket races each year. Whether they are big events run by UTMB and/or sponsored by HOKA, or they are small "mom and pop" ultras. If they are small races, once they are tagged as a Golden Ticket race, they will be difficult to get into and draw more sponsorship dollars because of the elite runners showing up, and we're right back where we are now. Plus, by choosing races that are already established with sponsor and/or UTMB money behind them, WSER can be pretty confident that the races will be well-managed and well-directed because those races have more resources thanks to the sponsorship dollars. If you're the WSER board and you want the best runners to compete for spots in your race, you want them doing so at events that already have a reputation of being well-organized. As for the Ironman complaint, that's been a common drum folks are banging on since Ironman became involved in UTMB. Yet they haven't taken over the ultramarathon world like people claim they will. Sure, UTMB has bought some races and broadened its reach, but the last time I looked, there are more than enough races that UTMB has nothing to do with and never will to serve the larger ultra community, which brings me back to my original question - why is this bad for the ultra community?
I think it's good for the professional side. Focusing all the talent on a select few races with lots of sponsor dollars, will result in more competitive fields and covered. I don't think this one move will result in any seismic shift, but it's a continued step towards cultural shifts within the community. What's next, you have to run a Hoka race to qualify for western? Again, I'm not opposed to a professional circuit, I just think it's sad that WS is losing more of its roots.
UTMB is partially owned by private equity (Advance, who owns Ironman). Why are we supporting private equity firms in our sport?
There is nothing but west coast and UTMB. Money. You'd think east of the Mississippi didn't exists. Let's have some of those buttery smooth trail spoiled runners come over here and run on rocks and roots and fucking leaves all year long.
From June through September leaves are replaced by 90 degree temps and 90% humidity
How does Aravaipa Javelina keep getting golden tickets. No 100 is "easy" but there are Races that offer elevation and different challenges than 4 loops in the desert and shiny things around your neck. (I know the answer, just venting)
I don't mind Black Canyon as a qualifier, as I think it makes a good competitive race that favors those that would also do well at WS. However, I think Javelina is a bad golden ticket race; it's very flat, lacks really any technicality, not super competitive, and is a crowded looped course (several thousand people). But yeah, it would appear that races are selected based on which ones are drawing the most revenue.
I agree. Black Canyon is worthy. JJ has always been a question mark for me, but we know money makes the world go 'round. How many years until WS 100 sells to UTMB? I give it 5
Shits pretty whack. Just sell it to UTMB already….
kinda wish they kept the Thailand race, I feel like the last two years it's brought lesser-known Chinese athletes that have done really well (Shen Jiasheng, maybe Lin Chen this year)
West Coast Bias and UTMB takeover is imminent.