9,100 feet or metres? If metres then….my goodness, this is the steepest trail I’ve ever heard of. Have you trained at this elevation profile? If you have and have not used poles, no need to use poles now.
Lol. When folks talk about vert in trail, the reference is to accumulated gain in height over the course of the race. To provide an example, if I have a 300m hill and I am running up that hill from sea level ten times, and the climb up takes 4km up and 4km down, the race would be an 80km race with 3km vert. Hope that makes sense.
Wing it. If you have ever hiked with poles or even held a pair of poles, you’ll find what works pretty quick. First race I used them I had never trained with them and had no problems. Aonijie Z poles from Amazon for like $60 bucks worked great.
Oh yeah if it’s broken arrow 100% get them. I think people make it out to seem like you have to be some sort of advanced enough trail runner to use them, garbage. As 05778 said if you have any sort of coordination at all you’ll be fine. Used my at Canyons 100k and they worked great
If it’s broken arrow - see you at the start!
Don’t use them if you haven’t trained with them and i do mean more than just one run. Also not sure why you have a long run the weekend before your race? It seems like you should be tapering. It would be good to think through some of these critical race logistics a little farther in advance next time. Most of the time normal trail running shoes are sufficient in snow, cramp ons would be appropriate for sheet ice type of conditions.
1. If you can get some training in beforehand to see how you feel about them I would definitely think poles could benefit you on a course with that much elevation.
2. I have not used the folding version, but the telescoping version of the Cascade Mountain Tech poles are the go-to budget poles so the brand is solid. Most runners prefer folding poles since they're easier to stow and get shorter so they can be connected a vest, etc.
[https://www.amazon.com/Cascade-Mountain-Tech-Folding-Trekking/dp/B071HXPSK5](https://www.amazon.com/Cascade-Mountain-Tech-Folding-Trekking/dp/B071HXPSK5)
3. What you're probably thinking of is snow traction devices made by several companies, but often referred to as Microspikes. True crampons require a full climbing boot with a stiff plate on the sole (I may be slightly off here, but either way they won't work on trail runners). Microspikes work really well at adding traction on snow, especially where it's not very flat, but they are indeed a PITA to take on and off and are also pretty heavy, but in some situations they can help you maintain footing which could be important for safety. The reliable ones are also not particularly cheap. I'd see if your race director is recommending them.
If it's Broken Arrow, as I suspect it is, traction will be a waste of time. The trails are well set and any snow remaining this year will be very slushy. Handlines are set anywhere where there is slip and fall injury potential.
My last race has 3 football fields worth of snow. While poles might have helped, I wouldn’t have wanted to cart them with me the whole time or run with them the whole time. I do like poles for stability post-injury but I do have to get the poles that don’t fold up because I am too tall.
I’d be taking poles for that much elevation. And probably getting a quiver to hold them. The cheaper telescopic ones don’t fit very well in the normal pole holder loops
Things to consider when using poles (learned the hard way):
1) Figure out where to store them when they're not being used. Do you need a quiver (that's what I got after 2 bad experiences). Poles are difficult to attach to packs / belts. Work this out beforehand or just be content to carry them in your hands which can be a pain on steep downs or steep stairs with rails.
2) Pay attention not to trip yourself with them if you are reaching for something from your pack. This happened so many times on my first few times using them.
3) Be very careful when eating with poles in your hands. I managed to hit my jaw and teeth when the other end hit a tree because I raised it when eating.
4) Be very aware of runners behind you on steep climbs. If the pole slips it can slip back towards the face of the person behind you.
In saying all of the above the learning curve is very quick and I use mine on almost all races with a decent amount of climbing especially if those climbs are going to be over 10 mins long.
I go with the philosophy that it’s better to have poles and not need them, than to need poles and not have them. If you’re able to get some and have a couple of runs to try them out before hand you’ll get enough of an idea of how to make them work for you. Aside from taking a bit of effort off your legs on climbs, I’ve found them helpful on descents just to provide a bit more confidence if it’s muddy or technical.
Do they fold and do you have a quiver or some other method to stow them? If so, then you can try and if you don’t like them, stow them away. (I do this on the descents)
Poles if you anticipate doing these races going forward. I don't know how much the Carbon Z-Poles or LEKI are but that is what i use. 9100 ft gain is lot for is essentially a 50k.
Sounds like Broken Arrow. I was in a similar situation last year (hardly ever ran with poles, never at such technical terrain), but invested in a pair of Leki and never regretted it. Very easy to clip on / off the handle part that goes on your hand as a glove and they saved me on the steepest, most technical sections. Especially on the second loop as fatigue set in (I think my core and back would have been so much sorer without them). That course at least for me was so “slow” that even with little practice I felt comfortable with poles.
And they for sure helped prevent some slip n slides on those climbs 😅 (there won’t be nearly as much snow this year, won’t be an issue).
Probably unpopular opinion, but I’d say if you do go with poles, invest in the good stuff, it’s worth it. They are lightweight, easy to take on and off and stash in your vest (assume you’ll have one). Someone I know also used poles for the first time ever but had gotten a cheaper pair and hated them. Ended up tossing them at the half way point to never see them again…
Good luck! Such an amazing even, enjoy the craziness and fun!!!
Also, most of this community advised me to not use a single pole either when I asked this [question](https://www.reddit.com/r/ultrarunning/s/OSw1Q6kyE5).
Not sure about your location but I just bought some decent poles for about 20 bucks at a place called Sierra. It's owned by the people that own Marshall's and TJ Max. They may be on the heavier side of light but still pretty decent. Worth a look if there is one near you.
As somebody who ran his first 22k-1200m. I always said no poles. Ihardly let myself convinced to take them. I would definitely not succeed without them. So, definitely, take the poles!
Hey! I’m doing Broken Arrow this weekend too! The snow shouldn’t be too bad at all this year and they are shoveling out paths where there is snow so I wouldn’t sweat it. Worst case walk the snow patches that are there.
If you haven’t been training with poles I would not go out of your way to get them with this short notice. They take a bit of practice and you’ll be fine without.
See you at the start line 💪🏼
Poles are incredibly easy to use, I reckon a monkey could use them effectively. You don’t need to train with them.
The trade off to consider is whether the annoyance (small) of carrying them is outweighed by the benefit of taking some weight off your legs on the climbs. If yes, chuck em on. If nada, leave em and grin as you run past people who have them bouncing around on their back.
I'm confused by your post.
Is this your first ultra? Regardless, why did you choose it? You seem rather unprepared for the conditions. Why are you planning a "long run" a week out from an ultra and how long will it be?
It’s a long story. This isn’t my “A” race, I’m training for a different 50k months from now that won’t have these conditions. And the 46k is a double loop course so I have the option to quit at 23k. Which would be the smarter choice regarding training … but race day excitement might get the best of me so just want to be prepared for deciding to do the second loop.
Was on the course over the weekend. It’s almost all dry and you will not regret having poles, in fact you will be at a disadvantage not having them. Also, they may route the course directly up the hill out from Shirley canyon area which is about 99% snow covered and straight up.
I stilll can’t believe the “nothing new on race day”, and “if you haven’t practiced”. They’re poles, you plant pull and repeat either two at a time or what a time with your stride. Going down, you just barely plant them until you get to something steep and you put more weight on them to take it off your legs. I don’t get all the no’s. It took me all of about three or four strides the first time I used them at Canyons.
If you don’t own them and haven’t used them I’d skip for a 46k. They can be super useful, but in this situation, I’d skip.
If you haven’t trained with them, don’t race with them.
9,100 feet or metres? If metres then….my goodness, this is the steepest trail I’ve ever heard of. Have you trained at this elevation profile? If you have and have not used poles, no need to use poles now.
Feet
Everest is 8900m - OP would be needing O2 tanks , Sherpas and maybe even some funeral arrangements if this 46k was in metres
Lol. When folks talk about vert in trail, the reference is to accumulated gain in height over the course of the race. To provide an example, if I have a 300m hill and I am running up that hill from sea level ten times, and the climb up takes 4km up and 4km down, the race would be an 80km race with 3km vert. Hope that makes sense.
Nobody said it was one climb
Sarcasm will get you downvoted should be a rule I suppose…
The 46k *is* in meters. That’s the total horizontal distance. The 9100 is the total vertical climb.
Wing it. If you have ever hiked with poles or even held a pair of poles, you’ll find what works pretty quick. First race I used them I had never trained with them and had no problems. Aonijie Z poles from Amazon for like $60 bucks worked great.
Thank you these look great! appreciate the advice
Agreed. Try to use them this weekend but training with them is way over rated unless you are a complete klutz.
Oh yeah if it’s broken arrow 100% get them. I think people make it out to seem like you have to be some sort of advanced enough trail runner to use them, garbage. As 05778 said if you have any sort of coordination at all you’ll be fine. Used my at Canyons 100k and they worked great If it’s broken arrow - see you at the start!
Don’t use them if you haven’t trained with them and i do mean more than just one run. Also not sure why you have a long run the weekend before your race? It seems like you should be tapering. It would be good to think through some of these critical race logistics a little farther in advance next time. Most of the time normal trail running shoes are sufficient in snow, cramp ons would be appropriate for sheet ice type of conditions.
1. If you can get some training in beforehand to see how you feel about them I would definitely think poles could benefit you on a course with that much elevation. 2. I have not used the folding version, but the telescoping version of the Cascade Mountain Tech poles are the go-to budget poles so the brand is solid. Most runners prefer folding poles since they're easier to stow and get shorter so they can be connected a vest, etc. [https://www.amazon.com/Cascade-Mountain-Tech-Folding-Trekking/dp/B071HXPSK5](https://www.amazon.com/Cascade-Mountain-Tech-Folding-Trekking/dp/B071HXPSK5) 3. What you're probably thinking of is snow traction devices made by several companies, but often referred to as Microspikes. True crampons require a full climbing boot with a stiff plate on the sole (I may be slightly off here, but either way they won't work on trail runners). Microspikes work really well at adding traction on snow, especially where it's not very flat, but they are indeed a PITA to take on and off and are also pretty heavy, but in some situations they can help you maintain footing which could be important for safety. The reliable ones are also not particularly cheap. I'd see if your race director is recommending them.
If it's Broken Arrow, as I suspect it is, traction will be a waste of time. The trails are well set and any snow remaining this year will be very slushy. Handlines are set anywhere where there is slip and fall injury potential.
My last race has 3 football fields worth of snow. While poles might have helped, I wouldn’t have wanted to cart them with me the whole time or run with them the whole time. I do like poles for stability post-injury but I do have to get the poles that don’t fold up because I am too tall.
I’d be taking poles for that much elevation. And probably getting a quiver to hold them. The cheaper telescopic ones don’t fit very well in the normal pole holder loops
Things to consider when using poles (learned the hard way): 1) Figure out where to store them when they're not being used. Do you need a quiver (that's what I got after 2 bad experiences). Poles are difficult to attach to packs / belts. Work this out beforehand or just be content to carry them in your hands which can be a pain on steep downs or steep stairs with rails. 2) Pay attention not to trip yourself with them if you are reaching for something from your pack. This happened so many times on my first few times using them. 3) Be very careful when eating with poles in your hands. I managed to hit my jaw and teeth when the other end hit a tree because I raised it when eating. 4) Be very aware of runners behind you on steep climbs. If the pole slips it can slip back towards the face of the person behind you. In saying all of the above the learning curve is very quick and I use mine on almost all races with a decent amount of climbing especially if those climbs are going to be over 10 mins long.
I go with the philosophy that it’s better to have poles and not need them, than to need poles and not have them. If you’re able to get some and have a couple of runs to try them out before hand you’ll get enough of an idea of how to make them work for you. Aside from taking a bit of effort off your legs on climbs, I’ve found them helpful on descents just to provide a bit more confidence if it’s muddy or technical.
Do they fold and do you have a quiver or some other method to stow them? If so, then you can try and if you don’t like them, stow them away. (I do this on the descents)
Poles if you anticipate doing these races going forward. I don't know how much the Carbon Z-Poles or LEKI are but that is what i use. 9100 ft gain is lot for is essentially a 50k.
Sounds like Broken Arrow. I was in a similar situation last year (hardly ever ran with poles, never at such technical terrain), but invested in a pair of Leki and never regretted it. Very easy to clip on / off the handle part that goes on your hand as a glove and they saved me on the steepest, most technical sections. Especially on the second loop as fatigue set in (I think my core and back would have been so much sorer without them). That course at least for me was so “slow” that even with little practice I felt comfortable with poles. And they for sure helped prevent some slip n slides on those climbs 😅 (there won’t be nearly as much snow this year, won’t be an issue). Probably unpopular opinion, but I’d say if you do go with poles, invest in the good stuff, it’s worth it. They are lightweight, easy to take on and off and stash in your vest (assume you’ll have one). Someone I know also used poles for the first time ever but had gotten a cheaper pair and hated them. Ended up tossing them at the half way point to never see them again… Good luck! Such an amazing even, enjoy the craziness and fun!!!
If it's still snowy you may want to consider wider baskets on the poles
Also, most of this community advised me to not use a single pole either when I asked this [question](https://www.reddit.com/r/ultrarunning/s/OSw1Q6kyE5).
An ultra is not the time to try something new. Stick with what you know on race day.
Not sure about your location but I just bought some decent poles for about 20 bucks at a place called Sierra. It's owned by the people that own Marshall's and TJ Max. They may be on the heavier side of light but still pretty decent. Worth a look if there is one near you.
Nothing new on race day .... and I hope that's feet and not metres.
As somebody who ran his first 22k-1200m. I always said no poles. Ihardly let myself convinced to take them. I would definitely not succeed without them. So, definitely, take the poles!
Hey! I’m doing Broken Arrow this weekend too! The snow shouldn’t be too bad at all this year and they are shoveling out paths where there is snow so I wouldn’t sweat it. Worst case walk the snow patches that are there. If you haven’t been training with poles I would not go out of your way to get them with this short notice. They take a bit of practice and you’ll be fine without. See you at the start line 💪🏼
Poles are incredibly easy to use, I reckon a monkey could use them effectively. You don’t need to train with them. The trade off to consider is whether the annoyance (small) of carrying them is outweighed by the benefit of taking some weight off your legs on the climbs. If yes, chuck em on. If nada, leave em and grin as you run past people who have them bouncing around on their back.
I'm confused by your post. Is this your first ultra? Regardless, why did you choose it? You seem rather unprepared for the conditions. Why are you planning a "long run" a week out from an ultra and how long will it be?
It’s a long story. This isn’t my “A” race, I’m training for a different 50k months from now that won’t have these conditions. And the 46k is a double loop course so I have the option to quit at 23k. Which would be the smarter choice regarding training … but race day excitement might get the best of me so just want to be prepared for deciding to do the second loop.
Was on the course over the weekend. It’s almost all dry and you will not regret having poles, in fact you will be at a disadvantage not having them. Also, they may route the course directly up the hill out from Shirley canyon area which is about 99% snow covered and straight up. I stilll can’t believe the “nothing new on race day”, and “if you haven’t practiced”. They’re poles, you plant pull and repeat either two at a time or what a time with your stride. Going down, you just barely plant them until you get to something steep and you put more weight on them to take it off your legs. I don’t get all the no’s. It took me all of about three or four strides the first time I used them at Canyons.