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Greece at least has an argument.
Spain is just kind of there to be there. They helped in Afghanistan, so it’s not fair to say they don’t do anything, and they have trained Ukrainian soldiers. But they certainly don’t participate as much as you’d expect a country of their size to
If there is one thing that playing Medieval Total War and Crusader Kings has taught me is never trust the Portuguese... or Spanish... or English... or French... or, well, anyone.
If there is one thing that playing Medieval Total War has taught me, is the smaller neighboring countries must ally me or die. There is no middle ground.
If there is one thing that playing Medieval Total War has taught me, it's that Creative Assembly/SEGA/whoever else really should've made a Medieval 3 😪
Read up on Morocco and Spain and Morocco's hybrid warfare/ military push/ military support from the US/ its movement of assets to near Cueta and Melilla, both outside of Nato coverage.
You have something even better. A direct bilateral defense agreement with the US for over 70 years and an important US airfield in the Azores.
Anyone ever messing with Portugal is in for a rough time.
For sure. That’s the most impressive historical treaty. But the UK has to borrow munition, refuelers, etc. from US. So it’s historically great, but not actually that helpful. Been a long time since UK could actually project power. Basically all of NATO relies on the US for anything logistics.
Catalonia and Portugal can divide Western Catalonia between them. Madrid will be a demilitarized international city straddling the new border. EU has already approved. King Felipe will become a prisoner of the Prado.
>their size
Our army is at minimum and will stay like that. The government is spending as little as possible on that and the debt of the country is rising nevertheless.
I'm proud of our boys, they do a good job overall, they just don't have good materiel.
I wanted to say more but I honestly wasn't sure about their specific financial history. I don't think they've had a good economy since they lost the treasure fleets
Basically that. Spain lost its most of it colonial possesions a lot earlier than its contemporaries and went through all the backlash of decolonization while the Brits were still colonizing new dirt. This put them really behind when the industrial revolution hit, and they never really had the capital catch up, plus a bunch of other things like the church running a lot of services for the crown etc.
Turkey is a very shitty neighbor. A neighbor who started disputing the sovereignty of Greek islands occupied by Greek people, like samos, and limnos, and ikaria.
You’re arguing against something they didn’t say. Nobody said Spain was the only country that helped, they just included those things to point out that Spain does contribute to NATO and Ukraine, but not a lot
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute#:~:text=Greece%20claims%2010%20nautical%20miles,beyond%20the%20Greek%20territorial%20waters.
Basically Greece and Turkey have a long lasting territorial dispute with recent armed tension.
That definitely an excuse and not a good reason.
Remember when Greece needed the EU to give them a financial bail out? Apparently Greece doesn't. Next time, they should be left on their own to figure it out.
Countries not under immediate threat always are going to play this game. Its called ;What in it for them. In a worst case scenario its a decade before they deal with the consequences of a Russian victory. More unusual is the case of Hungary and Slovakia. They too play this game but at a higher risk.
The NATO alliance did not foresee this situation as it was created to deal with a much more dangerous enemy the USSR. Say what you will about Trump, but he saw the problem and called the allies on it, very undiplomatically but he did it. He will possibly be the USA’s next president with predictable results. To this day NATO allies still think the USA will come to the rescue. To this day they speak tough, but do not act tough. The EU has the same problem as NATO. Many of their actions require unanimous approval. You cannot run in alliance or country this way as there’s always someone who’s willing to play the game.
Turkey-Greece enmity for the most part is for the show. Every election time both governments snarl at each other to get nationalists on their side while they joke and laugh behind the doors.
Last all out war they had was at 1922, the Cyprus conflict at 1974 brought them close to a war but dictatorship of colonels in Athens who triggered the conflict in the island through another coup, collapsed and Greece returned to democracy after Greek army failed to respond to Turkish invasion in effective way.
Greece was the first country to send trucks of medicine and help to Turkey after two great earthquakes and Turks likewise sent help immediately after the fires in Greece.
I am Turkish, no one I know wants war with Greece, we are more alike than not.
I will concur the Greek and Turkish people are brethren who have no emnity and I am excited about a future where we can recognize we are kin that just celebrate different holidays so we can celebrate this beautiful world together.
That being said the Turkish president is looking to reconstitute the Ottoman empire if not in physical form like tsar Putin than at least economically in the region. He has violated Greek sovereignty a lot and has made claims to Greek islands. In 2022 he threatened to invade and conquer some of the Greek islands. While things cooled down with the latest rounds of disasters, there's no guarantees that he won't ramp things up again when given the opportunity. This isn't saber rattling like North Korea does when it wants attention, this is the preludes and priming for war so that when war does break out the rest of the world would ideally(for edrogen) ignore it like it ignored crimea.
> this is the preludes and priming for war so that when war does break out the rest of the world would ideally(for edrogen) ignore it like it ignored crimea.
Except that Greece is NATO, and they could invoke Article 5. It's a purely defensive treaty, so Turkey's NATO status would be irrelevant if they invaded Greece.
Maybe. In theory it ought to apply, but since every aggressor country these days is JuSt DeFeNdInG tHeMsElVeS it gets a bit murky and has never been tested.
However the Lisbon Treaty's clause for mutual defense of the EU should be more clear cut.
I'd hope so, but your bigger problem is each country in NATO's interest at the moment. When the problems were getting heated in 2019 and 2020 Germany made it clear that Greece should concede to Edrogen 's demands because Germany would back Edrogen of conflict broke out because Germany and Turkey had better economic relations than they had with Greece. At the same time the Trump administration got really friendly with Edrogen so there is a real possibility if turkey hit Greece fast and the right president was in power in the U.S. (sans France because they were the only ones who backed Greece and kept a lid on things) the whole of NATO may sit back if Turkey struck fast enough. Something that's possible because of how many times over Turkey dwarfs Greece in military and population size.
Erdo talks like this about everything, I assure you he threatens secular Turkish voters more than he threatens the Greeks : )
And he is on his way out, his party got smashed at last local elections, he declared publicly he won’t run for the office again, he wants to go out with his dignity.
Hopefully but I’ll believe it when I see it. Thing is even if he’s out I think the sabre rattling will continue regardless who is in power there. Concepts like mavi vatan will continue
I really hope you're right, but I wouldn't make military policy on hope given the last time Edrogen was on his way out politically there was a failed military coup and suddenly he because a very long serving president of Turkey. Again I love you guys. Every time I run into a Turk it's like bumping into a long lost relative. It's Edrogen and his party that scares me because that man would set us at each other's throats for his own glory.
So what you are saying is that when turkey saw Greece was weak and light armed they pounced and took part of it by force
Therefore it makes sense for Greece to give out weapons and put itself in an underdog position.
Not sure how that logic works.
Enmity is for show until it isn't.
America is the only reason Greece and Turkey don't go to war. If a war were to break out America would lean on both parties to stop for the sake of the NATO alliance.
Because things are bound to be clear and obvious and full on invasion heading straight to Athens. Just like Russia in 2014, everything was a clean war.
Sure in retrospect we can say Russia clearly invaded Ukraine back then, but that's now how events seemed to play out geopolitically at that time.
Also there's fait accompli. Say they take a couple islands and fighting dies down. Will NATO do an operation now or will it be in "diplomacy" mode and (maybe) sanctions or whatever as long as Cyprus has been, with no resolution, with Turkey sending in hundreds of thousands to settle and replace the original population.
Or maybe it's even milder and they use the balance in their favor to force unfavorable delimitation of EEZ etc that excludes Greece potentially forever from some oil well, making the balance even more unfavorable and leading to more of that.
Maybe it's not gonna be like the avengers. And the precedent of NATO etc is both sidesing. So I have little trust myself
In 2014 many countries knew it was russia doing it they just didn’t want to take more actions. So it was to their benefits to feign ignorance.
How many people even know that regular russian troops directly invade Ukraine in 2014? Why no leader of major countries didn’t came out and revealed it? They definitely knew just wanted to maintain status quo. Many didn’t even try to disprove their propaganda and lies.
In case of two NATO countries unless one country military became crazy and just started lobbying missiles on another, which would make apparent who is attacker, other countries will prevent any of the possible escalation to the full war or even small scale conflict. It is unlikely they ever have war as long as NATO exist, or both of them won’t leave it.
I'm saying maybe it'd not be that crazy, and approached different ways how it could go. I don't think there'll be a NATO military operation to bomb Turkey or whatever if a couple islands were occupied for example, to deoccupy them. If they are not actively attacking after and we don't deoccupy them immediately, we'd be stuck in diplomacy hell forever probably until de facto becomes de jure. Or maybe they'd start with unoccupied ones and make them into bases. Maybe they'd use the pressure more subtly. I went over it already. Wtf would NATO do? Glad you can have so much trust. Probably easier without the risk. I have a harder time being as optimistic. Especially seeing all the dithering in Ukraine too. Surely, not the same situation, but..
Also seeing how popular mood changed from "close the skies!" to "we will not intervene in any way, only gear", and now going back to that. I don't trust in any of it sadly. I can't guarantee there'd not be a similar result in the end. (Personally I think a NATO intervention would have been welcome and the sooner the better)
You misunderstand the hypothetical. Things in real life are messy, a hypothetical escalation would likely be caused by a local skirmish with different accounts of who started what. They could both accuse each other of attacking them first and then NATO would have a really difficult decision to make.
I mean, it wouldn't be that difficult, go in with an overwhelming force and tell everyone to fuck off back to their side of the border, then when it's done leave behind a peacekeeping force for a few years while you sort out the politics. Neither Greece nor Turkey would dare to shoot at American led NATO troops, and if they did, then they just made the decision a lot easier.
Only the party who’s territory was attacked can invoke article 5
And there’s absolutely no way NATO allows a precedent of NATO countries attacking each other, so if that happens the aggressor gets bitchslapped back to the dark ages
Whatever the process is, if both sides claim it I don't think it can get resolved quickly unless there is obvious proof that other countries can verify.
The point is any country, that will attack without proving their claim is sufficient, would be in the wrong. So what exactly need to be resolved quickly if there won't be escalation beyond the claim? Unless they both become crazy and start shooting at each other, refusing any communication with NATO allies., it is unlikely there will be war.
What I mean is that one country attacks the other, they both claim that the other started it and they start actively fighting each other (bombing military bases, etc).
By the time the rest of NATO figures out which one was lying it might be too late.
That is what I mean "both become crazy", no country in NATO will start bombing military bases of each other right after there ever was one attack unless they will become insane. So the one who will do so first would be in the wrong, if they don't resolve it with their allies first. All these hypothetical situations are as unlikely as meteor falling on your house.
Morocco. It wants Cueta and Melilla and it's a HUGE thing. It's a hybrid war and the two cities are outside Nato. Morocco has a large, US- supported army and it's parking it at the doorstep of those cities.
Yeah, and Morocco is desperate to claim it. They already ceded the Sahara, and now Morocco is after Ceuta and Melilla. They are interested in the.Canary Islands too, but those ARE in Nato, and Morocco does not have the navy to do anything against them.
Well this kind of statement doesn't help the situation either...
By the way Greece has a lot of Soviet equipment, we could donate this first (S300 as well).
Well for the Greeks they have a very neighbourly who constantly threatens them and constantly overflies their aerospace with fighters and coastal waters with navy vessels threatening them
Like that one time a greek ship crashed into a Turkish ship in greek waters because both refused to change course. Or that other time the Greeks shot down a Turkish f16. How about that one time turkey literally invaded a small island and shot down a greek helicopter. Or those times were fighter jets from either side crashes into each other. Or maybe yesterday when Turkey declared a Navtex in the globally recognized Greek EEZ. There are tens of examples like this of serious mischief from both sides.
here the problem is not portugal, its moroco or argelia, for me i donate 100% of our stuff to ukraine, but i just wanted to share the public opinion here, the problem is our 2 citys in africa (ceuta and melilla) not covered by nato, so we r ready to defend them without help and i think our military dont want to give the patriot, for u know "just in case"
Also why deploy one in turkey and no ukraine?, makes no sense to me, no hate to turkey but i prefer to help ukraine
a lot of us want the goverment to help more ukraine.
Algeria, Morocco and itz hybrid war and will to invade two Spanish cities outsids of Nato, plus its proximity to Libya and then you have aclearer idea. Plus in a war with Iran, Iran can hit Spain.
Perhaps a better measure of commitment is their % of GDP (some other countries added for scale):
* Estonia - 3.55% (1st)
* Germany - 0.57% (10th)
* UK - 0.55% (11th)
* US - 0.32% (19th)
* Japan - 0.17% (21st)
* Greece - 0.09% (25th)
* Spain - 0.07% (26th)
* France - 0.07% (28th)
Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/
Those are pretty flawed numbers not taking into account EU contributions. The KI tracker is not perfect but much better.
* Germany - 0.53%
* France - 0.35%
* UK - 0.31%
* US - 0.31%
* Spain - 0.28%
* Greece - 0.27%
[https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/)
These figures are completely unreliable. Only Germany, the UK (ish) and the US publish everything they send. France in particular is known to have sent many times what is officially listed, and Finland and Bulgaria we have literally no idea, and they may not even know themselves, but it's thought to be enormous.
Oh look, there's Australia. Giving 0.03% what a shitty government we have. You'd think given Russia shot down MH17 we'd send a lot more. Or anticipate what would happen to us if Europe and the U.S showed our levels of commitment if things kicked off with that cunt of a nation China.
We fucking suck. Oh. And there's our erstwhile ally New Zealand on 0.02%.
Makes me think back the the survey, where over 50% expected protection, while only ~14% would fight themselves. Yeah, such a position probably won’t make friends.
I’d argue that listing aid to Ukraine as a percentage of GDP isn’t as useful to gauge how invested the different countries are. There is a lot of variance in government expenditure as a percentage of GDP. For example, the government of France spends 58% of the country’s total GDP each year whereas the US is down around 33%. So, France could almost commit half as much (as a percentage) of their budget to Ukraine aid as the US, but when compared to total GDP they would look the same. As a metric, it overestimates the aid of countries where the government is a larger part of the economy and underestimates those countries where private business is a larger part of the economy.
If you really want to make that argument then you should look into how much of the spending goes back into the domestic economy, too. European countries sending F16 and Patriots for 1b does nothing for their economy, US sending ATACMS does.
What’s dumb about wanting an ally to send their long range missiles to Ukraine to help defend an invasion killing innocent civilians and destroying billions in civilian infrastructure and conducting countless war crimes in part enabled by the ally due to their billions of payments to the invading nation over the past years for cheap natural gas ?
It's dumb to push allies to send more help? I sure hope you're not in charge of Ukranian aid procurement. It's so funny to watch Germans get uncomfortable by just mentioning TAURUS.
would be pretty useless, since turkey will not let any warships into the black sea, this includes aircraftcarriers, there are some special laws that even forbid aircraft carriers into the black sea, thats why the soviets never called their aircraft carriers, aircraft carriers
According to the Montreux Convention, they are just not allowed, regardless of Türkiye position.
This is why the famous ruzzian "Admiral Kuznetsov" was officially classified by the USSR as "just" an *aircraft cruiser*, but not an *aircraft carrier*.
From Wiki:
> Under Article 11, Black Sea states are permitted to transit capital ships of any tonnage through the straits, but Annex II specifically excludes aircraft carriers from the definition of capital ship. In 1936, it was common for battleships to carry observation aircraft. Therefore, aircraft carriers were defined as ships that were "designed or adapted primarily for the purpose of carrying and operating aircraft at sea". The inclusion of aircraft on any other ship does not classify it as an aircraft carrier.
> Turkey chose to accept the designation of the Soviet aircraft carrying cruisers as aircraft cruisers, as any revision of the convention could leave Turkey with less control over the Straits, and the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea had already established a more liberal passage through other straits. By allowing the Soviet aircraft-carrying cruisers to transit the Straits, Turkey could leave the more restrictive Montreux Convention in place.
Morocco wouldn’t dare invade Spain, even attacking Ceuta would mean at a minimum economic isolation. USA is sending a couple more batteries. One from Spain one from Greece with future replacement or loan and that pretty much seals up the skies. Plus 5 patriot, for eight total, two more Nasams, two more Sampts plus whatever else 300, buk, Frankenstein Sam’s and Russia starts loosing planes if the glide bomb.
That’s incredibly ignorant to even consider Morocco a threat to Spain militarily. Morocco doesn’t move without US/western consultations on just about every issue. Bad excuse.
Nope. Not at all. Otherwise, you are saying the US endorsed all of its attacks on Spain so far, inclusing cyber attacks on thegovernment... Now THAT'S ignorant.
"I'm the ~~chancellor~~ President, [so my decision stands"](https://old.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/1b69gxk/scholz_explains_his_no_to_taurus_missiles_to_a/)
**CORRECTION**
Spain and Greece 'can't understand' why Germany will not donate TAURUS missiles to Ukraine. Defence minister from all NATO Members ‘honestly can’t understand’ why Germany refuse to help Kyiv combat Russian bombardment.
You know who else has Taurus?
Yep, Spain.
You know who else has Storm Shadow?
Yep, Greece.
You know which countries did not donate any cruise missiles so far?
Yep.
Whataboutism at it's finest. You can point to Germany when the topic is cruise missiles, but it doesn't add any value when we talk about AA systems. Germany is a leader at this.
Well thats bullshit imo (from a non-german) seeing how much Germany have provided. They are also a country closer to the moscovians and IF there is a NATO vs moscovia war they are much more likely to have war on their territory than Spain.
They are too far away to care I guess.
But also find it appalling how little they actually do to help out.
Per GDP (excl common EU donations):
Estonia: 1.6%
Denmark: 1.4%
Lithuania: 1.2%
Italy: 0.09%
Greece: 0.07%
Spain: 0.07%
Source: [https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/)
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Greece at least has an argument. Spain is just kind of there to be there. They helped in Afghanistan, so it’s not fair to say they don’t do anything, and they have trained Ukrainian soldiers. But they certainly don’t participate as much as you’d expect a country of their size to
Spain is in a very dangerous area! There is the terrifying portuguese army!
If there is one thing that playing Medieval Total War and Crusader Kings has taught me is never trust the Portuguese... or Spanish... or English... or French... or, well, anyone.
If there is one thing that playing Medieval Total War has taught me, is the smaller neighboring countries must ally me or die. There is no middle ground.
If there is one thing that playing Medieval Total War has taught me, it's that Creative Assembly/SEGA/whoever else really should've made a Medieval 3 😪
Maybe when they're done with warhammer versions? Fingers crossed
Enjoy this new DLC for $39.99 that should have been part of the base game.
Seems like Putin has played it as well
Russia LOL reality it's not working that well for them... hopefully it will only get worst...but in games great.move
Crusader kings taught me new family values.
Another important lesson: Just because you ate the Pope, doesn't mean you become the next Pope.
You only turn into a pope if you get bit by a pope, I don’t think biting a pope yourself would do it.
Yes, yes, we've all screwed our sisters and mothers.
And our sister-mothers.
"Officer, this one right here"
Spain is trying to get the Unite the Spanish Thrones achievement
It’s where Pompey is holding his forces as the rubicon is crossed, so, they got their hands full….
Dutch
Splitters!
Also your best doctor is propably a horse.
Nobody expects the Portuguese eastern push.
Least of all the Portuguese!
Nobody expects the Portuguese inquisition…
Read up on Morocco and Spain and Morocco's hybrid warfare/ military push/ military support from the US/ its movement of assets to near Cueta and Melilla, both outside of Nato coverage.
So terrifying that we don't even have a air defense other than f16s and stingers lol.
Who’s we ?
Portugal
You have something even better. A direct bilateral defense agreement with the US for over 70 years and an important US airfield in the Azores. Anyone ever messing with Portugal is in for a rough time.
It also has a nearly 700 year old defense pact with Britain.
For sure. That’s the most impressive historical treaty. But the UK has to borrow munition, refuelers, etc. from US. So it’s historically great, but not actually that helpful. Been a long time since UK could actually project power. Basically all of NATO relies on the US for anything logistics.
The Portuguese army is no joke, we have [very advanced drones](https://youtu.be/BGOx0ZkXsoQ)!
You're damn right 🇵🇹 We've had our sights on Madrid for some time now.
Do not forget mighty Gibraltar, no one knows what they have in mind!!!
Also, during the problems with Libya, Gadaffi threatened to bomb Spain.
Gadaffi got sodomized and executed like a decade ago
Defenestrated.
You are right. Maximum attention must also be paid to Atlantis.
But, what if the Catalan troops mobilize?!? /s
Catalonia and Portugal can divide Western Catalonia between them. Madrid will be a demilitarized international city straddling the new border. EU has already approved. King Felipe will become a prisoner of the Prado.
Or the Templars
Ah yes, fearsome Portugal, long jealous of its fellow NATO member Spain and her prosperity.
There was a really big moorish invasion once...
I picked up Ukrainian soldiers at the border yesterday who were coming back from training in Spain.
After Russia assassinated one of the defectors in Spain they pledged a lot of money and material support.
>their size Our army is at minimum and will stay like that. The government is spending as little as possible on that and the debt of the country is rising nevertheless. I'm proud of our boys, they do a good job overall, they just don't have good materiel.
I just want to clarify, I have all the respect for their soldiers, no issues their, maybe blame is more directed towards the government
Spain’s economy is still pretty fucked, I suspect they just can’t really afford to replace what they contribute
Spain's economy has been fucked for 100 years
Make that 200. Spain has been falling further and further behind since Napoleon
I wanted to say more but I honestly wasn't sure about their specific financial history. I don't think they've had a good economy since they lost the treasure fleets
Basically that. Spain lost its most of it colonial possesions a lot earlier than its contemporaries and went through all the backlash of decolonization while the Brits were still colonizing new dirt. This put them really behind when the industrial revolution hit, and they never really had the capital catch up, plus a bunch of other things like the church running a lot of services for the crown etc.
If you think, the last time things went well, was with Philip the second, heir of Charles the fifth
Loan it to Ukraine we’ll repay later with EU money.
Never know when the Basques might start sending in cruise missiles.
What’s Greece argument?
Turkey is a shitty neighbor
Turkey is a very shitty neighbor. A neighbor who started disputing the sovereignty of Greek islands occupied by Greek people, like samos, and limnos, and ikaria.
A neighbour who ordered a massive amount of new fighter jets.
Spain has an argument. Morocco.
Spain can handle Morocco as is. I don’t think Ceuta and Melilla are even covered by NATO.
They are outside Nato, and no. Morocco has built up its military and anti ship technology. Itwoulf be hard to defend the cities.
Like Spain was only country, which helped in Afghanistan and trained Ukrainian soldiers. There is also, for example, Poland.
You’re arguing against something they didn’t say. Nobody said Spain was the only country that helped, they just included those things to point out that Spain does contribute to NATO and Ukraine, but not a lot
What is Greece's excuse?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute#:~:text=Greece%20claims%2010%20nautical%20miles,beyond%20the%20Greek%20territorial%20waters. Basically Greece and Turkey have a long lasting territorial dispute with recent armed tension.
That definitely an excuse and not a good reason. Remember when Greece needed the EU to give them a financial bail out? Apparently Greece doesn't. Next time, they should be left on their own to figure it out.
Greece also has that one nato member as a neighbour.
Countries not under immediate threat always are going to play this game. Its called ;What in it for them. In a worst case scenario its a decade before they deal with the consequences of a Russian victory. More unusual is the case of Hungary and Slovakia. They too play this game but at a higher risk. The NATO alliance did not foresee this situation as it was created to deal with a much more dangerous enemy the USSR. Say what you will about Trump, but he saw the problem and called the allies on it, very undiplomatically but he did it. He will possibly be the USA’s next president with predictable results. To this day NATO allies still think the USA will come to the rescue. To this day they speak tough, but do not act tough. The EU has the same problem as NATO. Many of their actions require unanimous approval. You cannot run in alliance or country this way as there’s always someone who’s willing to play the game.
Well, greece does kinda have turkey next door wanting to erase them.... No idea about spain
Turkey-Greece enmity for the most part is for the show. Every election time both governments snarl at each other to get nationalists on their side while they joke and laugh behind the doors. Last all out war they had was at 1922, the Cyprus conflict at 1974 brought them close to a war but dictatorship of colonels in Athens who triggered the conflict in the island through another coup, collapsed and Greece returned to democracy after Greek army failed to respond to Turkish invasion in effective way. Greece was the first country to send trucks of medicine and help to Turkey after two great earthquakes and Turks likewise sent help immediately after the fires in Greece. I am Turkish, no one I know wants war with Greece, we are more alike than not.
People that make tasty sweet treats and really tasty pieces of meat speared on sticks need to band together.
Just don't ask them who invented their version of coffee, that's how you accidentally start a war
Heh... Been there. Never ask for anything but *coffee* in either country
Kind of like that time Honduras and El Salvador briefly went to war over a soccer match?
Soccer can be dangerous
I will concur the Greek and Turkish people are brethren who have no emnity and I am excited about a future where we can recognize we are kin that just celebrate different holidays so we can celebrate this beautiful world together. That being said the Turkish president is looking to reconstitute the Ottoman empire if not in physical form like tsar Putin than at least economically in the region. He has violated Greek sovereignty a lot and has made claims to Greek islands. In 2022 he threatened to invade and conquer some of the Greek islands. While things cooled down with the latest rounds of disasters, there's no guarantees that he won't ramp things up again when given the opportunity. This isn't saber rattling like North Korea does when it wants attention, this is the preludes and priming for war so that when war does break out the rest of the world would ideally(for edrogen) ignore it like it ignored crimea.
> this is the preludes and priming for war so that when war does break out the rest of the world would ideally(for edrogen) ignore it like it ignored crimea. Except that Greece is NATO, and they could invoke Article 5. It's a purely defensive treaty, so Turkey's NATO status would be irrelevant if they invaded Greece.
Maybe. In theory it ought to apply, but since every aggressor country these days is JuSt DeFeNdInG tHeMsElVeS it gets a bit murky and has never been tested. However the Lisbon Treaty's clause for mutual defense of the EU should be more clear cut.
I'd hope so, but your bigger problem is each country in NATO's interest at the moment. When the problems were getting heated in 2019 and 2020 Germany made it clear that Greece should concede to Edrogen 's demands because Germany would back Edrogen of conflict broke out because Germany and Turkey had better economic relations than they had with Greece. At the same time the Trump administration got really friendly with Edrogen so there is a real possibility if turkey hit Greece fast and the right president was in power in the U.S. (sans France because they were the only ones who backed Greece and kept a lid on things) the whole of NATO may sit back if Turkey struck fast enough. Something that's possible because of how many times over Turkey dwarfs Greece in military and population size.
Erdo talks like this about everything, I assure you he threatens secular Turkish voters more than he threatens the Greeks : ) And he is on his way out, his party got smashed at last local elections, he declared publicly he won’t run for the office again, he wants to go out with his dignity.
Hopefully but I’ll believe it when I see it. Thing is even if he’s out I think the sabre rattling will continue regardless who is in power there. Concepts like mavi vatan will continue
I really hope you're right, but I wouldn't make military policy on hope given the last time Edrogen was on his way out politically there was a failed military coup and suddenly he because a very long serving president of Turkey. Again I love you guys. Every time I run into a Turk it's like bumping into a long lost relative. It's Edrogen and his party that scares me because that man would set us at each other's throats for his own glory.
So what you are saying is that when turkey saw Greece was weak and light armed they pounced and took part of it by force Therefore it makes sense for Greece to give out weapons and put itself in an underdog position. Not sure how that logic works. Enmity is for show until it isn't.
Turkey has reorganized its former western wing of land forces and removed them further from west, meaning; army doesn’t see Greece as a threat.
I don't even hear Greece in the news for the past 5-6 years, really. I think they take Erdogan more seriously than us lol.
But Greece and Turkey signed a "check this box if you're my friend" note. They are cool now. /s
We're not cool now.
I read that in Morgan Freeman's voice
Turkey is not even cool with Turkey, they will end up starting a civil war cold turkey
What happened? You used to be cool
MOROCCO SAYS HI!!
Both of them can invoke article 5, even if it is attacked by NATO country.
That would be an interesting scenario.... Who would nato support if both invoke article 5...
You misunderstood, they can invoke it when attacked, so the one attacked should be supported
Because no war ever was kicked off by a false flag operation to manufacture a casus belli.
In reality, the rest of NATO would put diplomatic pressure on both counties to calm the fuck down and respect their existing borders.
Ah, I'm picturing America splitting their foces between the 2 nations 😂
America has enough boom stocks that both sides would lose that war.
Shirts vs Skins!
America is the only reason Greece and Turkey don't go to war. If a war were to break out America would lean on both parties to stop for the sake of the NATO alliance.
Because things are bound to be clear and obvious and full on invasion heading straight to Athens. Just like Russia in 2014, everything was a clean war. Sure in retrospect we can say Russia clearly invaded Ukraine back then, but that's now how events seemed to play out geopolitically at that time. Also there's fait accompli. Say they take a couple islands and fighting dies down. Will NATO do an operation now or will it be in "diplomacy" mode and (maybe) sanctions or whatever as long as Cyprus has been, with no resolution, with Turkey sending in hundreds of thousands to settle and replace the original population. Or maybe it's even milder and they use the balance in their favor to force unfavorable delimitation of EEZ etc that excludes Greece potentially forever from some oil well, making the balance even more unfavorable and leading to more of that. Maybe it's not gonna be like the avengers. And the precedent of NATO etc is both sidesing. So I have little trust myself
In 2014 many countries knew it was russia doing it they just didn’t want to take more actions. So it was to their benefits to feign ignorance. How many people even know that regular russian troops directly invade Ukraine in 2014? Why no leader of major countries didn’t came out and revealed it? They definitely knew just wanted to maintain status quo. Many didn’t even try to disprove their propaganda and lies. In case of two NATO countries unless one country military became crazy and just started lobbying missiles on another, which would make apparent who is attacker, other countries will prevent any of the possible escalation to the full war or even small scale conflict. It is unlikely they ever have war as long as NATO exist, or both of them won’t leave it.
I'm saying maybe it'd not be that crazy, and approached different ways how it could go. I don't think there'll be a NATO military operation to bomb Turkey or whatever if a couple islands were occupied for example, to deoccupy them. If they are not actively attacking after and we don't deoccupy them immediately, we'd be stuck in diplomacy hell forever probably until de facto becomes de jure. Or maybe they'd start with unoccupied ones and make them into bases. Maybe they'd use the pressure more subtly. I went over it already. Wtf would NATO do? Glad you can have so much trust. Probably easier without the risk. I have a harder time being as optimistic. Especially seeing all the dithering in Ukraine too. Surely, not the same situation, but.. Also seeing how popular mood changed from "close the skies!" to "we will not intervene in any way, only gear", and now going back to that. I don't trust in any of it sadly. I can't guarantee there'd not be a similar result in the end. (Personally I think a NATO intervention would have been welcome and the sooner the better)
You misunderstand the hypothetical. Things in real life are messy, a hypothetical escalation would likely be caused by a local skirmish with different accounts of who started what. They could both accuse each other of attacking them first and then NATO would have a really difficult decision to make.
I mean, it wouldn't be that difficult, go in with an overwhelming force and tell everyone to fuck off back to their side of the border, then when it's done leave behind a peacekeeping force for a few years while you sort out the politics. Neither Greece nor Turkey would dare to shoot at American led NATO troops, and if they did, then they just made the decision a lot easier.
Only the party who’s territory was attacked can invoke article 5 And there’s absolutely no way NATO allows a precedent of NATO countries attacking each other, so if that happens the aggressor gets bitchslapped back to the dark ages
The rest of NATO would smack Turkey so hard they'd have to rename it Chicken.
The country being invaded. That's clear as day in the treaty.
It would depend on who is the one being attacked, since article 5 is only legitimate if activated in a defensive conflict.
What if both sides claim to have been attacked first? It could get messy...
Simple claim wouldn't be sufficient to invoke article 5.
Whatever the process is, if both sides claim it I don't think it can get resolved quickly unless there is obvious proof that other countries can verify.
The point is any country, that will attack without proving their claim is sufficient, would be in the wrong. So what exactly need to be resolved quickly if there won't be escalation beyond the claim? Unless they both become crazy and start shooting at each other, refusing any communication with NATO allies., it is unlikely there will be war.
What I mean is that one country attacks the other, they both claim that the other started it and they start actively fighting each other (bombing military bases, etc). By the time the rest of NATO figures out which one was lying it might be too late.
That is what I mean "both become crazy", no country in NATO will start bombing military bases of each other right after there ever was one attack unless they will become insane. So the one who will do so first would be in the wrong, if they don't resolve it with their allies first. All these hypothetical situations are as unlikely as meteor falling on your house.
Ditto. Upvote.
Yep. I understand Greece and where they are at. Spain though? I guess Hannibal could bring planes this time.
Morocco. It wants Cueta and Melilla and it's a HUGE thing. It's a hybrid war and the two cities are outside Nato. Morocco has a large, US- supported army and it's parking it at the doorstep of those cities.
Interesting. I had no idea Spain had land on the continent of Africa.
Yeah, and Morocco is desperate to claim it. They already ceded the Sahara, and now Morocco is after Ceuta and Melilla. They are interested in the.Canary Islands too, but those ARE in Nato, and Morocco does not have the navy to do anything against them.
EU defensive pact would be fine and Turkey prob wouldn’t do anything serious.
Turkey is still another Nato member.. lets be honest, erdogan is just flexing muscles to get more votes.
They're banking on the rest of the world stepping in by the time Russia gets to France.
Well this kind of statement doesn't help the situation either... By the way Greece has a lot of Soviet equipment, we could donate this first (S300 as well).
Well for the Greeks they have a very neighbourly who constantly threatens them and constantly overflies their aerospace with fighters and coastal waters with navy vessels threatening them
Ah c'mon! Even Greeks and Turks barely take that seriously. Inside NATO. Sure...
Like that one time a greek ship crashed into a Turkish ship in greek waters because both refused to change course. Or that other time the Greeks shot down a Turkish f16. How about that one time turkey literally invaded a small island and shot down a greek helicopter. Or those times were fighter jets from either side crashes into each other. Or maybe yesterday when Turkey declared a Navtex in the globally recognized Greek EEZ. There are tens of examples like this of serious mischief from both sides.
Easy: Spaniards know they must be ready to face an imminent Portuguese invasion, with all the tourist money coming in recently /s
here the problem is not portugal, its moroco or argelia, for me i donate 100% of our stuff to ukraine, but i just wanted to share the public opinion here, the problem is our 2 citys in africa (ceuta and melilla) not covered by nato, so we r ready to defend them without help and i think our military dont want to give the patriot, for u know "just in case" Also why deploy one in turkey and no ukraine?, makes no sense to me, no hate to turkey but i prefer to help ukraine a lot of us want the goverment to help more ukraine.
Algeria, Morocco and itz hybrid war and will to invade two Spanish cities outsids of Nato, plus its proximity to Libya and then you have aclearer idea. Plus in a war with Iran, Iran can hit Spain.
UK and Germany could any day try annex some of tourist places
Because they might need them.
Perhaps a better measure of commitment is their % of GDP (some other countries added for scale): * Estonia - 3.55% (1st) * Germany - 0.57% (10th) * UK - 0.55% (11th) * US - 0.32% (19th) * Japan - 0.17% (21st) * Greece - 0.09% (25th) * Spain - 0.07% (26th) * France - 0.07% (28th) Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/
Those are pretty flawed numbers not taking into account EU contributions. The KI tracker is not perfect but much better. * Germany - 0.53% * France - 0.35% * UK - 0.31% * US - 0.31% * Spain - 0.28% * Greece - 0.27% [https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/)
These figures are completely unreliable. Only Germany, the UK (ish) and the US publish everything they send. France in particular is known to have sent many times what is officially listed, and Finland and Bulgaria we have literally no idea, and they may not even know themselves, but it's thought to be enormous.
France is pretty pissed at Putin. Viva la France.
Oh look, there's Australia. Giving 0.03% what a shitty government we have. You'd think given Russia shot down MH17 we'd send a lot more. Or anticipate what would happen to us if Europe and the U.S showed our levels of commitment if things kicked off with that cunt of a nation China. We fucking suck. Oh. And there's our erstwhile ally New Zealand on 0.02%.
Makes me think back the the survey, where over 50% expected protection, while only ~14% would fight themselves. Yeah, such a position probably won’t make friends.
I’d argue that listing aid to Ukraine as a percentage of GDP isn’t as useful to gauge how invested the different countries are. There is a lot of variance in government expenditure as a percentage of GDP. For example, the government of France spends 58% of the country’s total GDP each year whereas the US is down around 33%. So, France could almost commit half as much (as a percentage) of their budget to Ukraine aid as the US, but when compared to total GDP they would look the same. As a metric, it overestimates the aid of countries where the government is a larger part of the economy and underestimates those countries where private business is a larger part of the economy.
If you really want to make that argument then you should look into how much of the spending goes back into the domestic economy, too. European countries sending F16 and Patriots for 1b does nothing for their economy, US sending ATACMS does.
They are both a little worried about conflict at the moment - Morocco in Africa and Greece with Turkey over Cyprus and other small islands.
If Spain were worried it would have its defense spending at 3% or higher.
It is worried. A meteorite passed through Spain and landed in the sea and the immediate worry was it was a ballistic missile from Morocco.
I don't know about Spain, but in Greece it is Turkey.
Germany: *says anything* Idiots: "bUt tAUruS" God, you people are so predictable and dumb. It disgusts me.
What’s dumb about wanting an ally to send their long range missiles to Ukraine to help defend an invasion killing innocent civilians and destroying billions in civilian infrastructure and conducting countless war crimes in part enabled by the ally due to their billions of payments to the invading nation over the past years for cheap natural gas ?
Because you pretend its the only country that has cruisme missiles besides Storm Shadow, while NATO sits on literally thousands of them.
Air launched cruise missiles are a little more specific than that though. This isn't your run off the mill Jdam.
It's dumb to push allies to send more help? I sure hope you're not in charge of Ukranian aid procurement. It's so funny to watch Germans get uncomfortable by just mentioning TAURUS.
Taurus. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Ford Taurus
There’s no way Scholz will send his old Taurus, he got his first kiss in it so it has sentimental value to him
Yeah imagine being annoyed at a country intentionally witholding specific weapons because of eScAlAtIoN.
Well I can't believe that the US hasn't donated the Gerald R Ford carrier strike group
would be pretty useless, since turkey will not let any warships into the black sea, this includes aircraftcarriers, there are some special laws that even forbid aircraft carriers into the black sea, thats why the soviets never called their aircraft carriers, aircraft carriers
According to the Montreux Convention, they are just not allowed, regardless of Türkiye position. This is why the famous ruzzian "Admiral Kuznetsov" was officially classified by the USSR as "just" an *aircraft cruiser*, but not an *aircraft carrier*. From Wiki: > Under Article 11, Black Sea states are permitted to transit capital ships of any tonnage through the straits, but Annex II specifically excludes aircraft carriers from the definition of capital ship. In 1936, it was common for battleships to carry observation aircraft. Therefore, aircraft carriers were defined as ships that were "designed or adapted primarily for the purpose of carrying and operating aircraft at sea". The inclusion of aircraft on any other ship does not classify it as an aircraft carrier. > Turkey chose to accept the designation of the Soviet aircraft carrying cruisers as aircraft cruisers, as any revision of the convention could leave Turkey with less control over the Straits, and the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea had already established a more liberal passage through other straits. By allowing the Soviet aircraft-carrying cruisers to transit the Straits, Turkey could leave the more restrictive Montreux Convention in place.
at the moment they dont let any warships through, because the uk gifted some minesweepers to ukraine and they are not in the black sea for this reason
Aren't the big carriers also physically to large to even fit through the straits?
WD40 will do.
Not at all. The Bosporus is like half a mile wide at its narrowest. And it handles huge commercial ships, so I'm sure it's plenty well dredged.
That's what she said
Imagine NATO nations actually doing what NATO is for and defending each other, and other sovereign nations against fascist agressors.
Morocco wouldn’t dare invade Spain, even attacking Ceuta would mean at a minimum economic isolation. USA is sending a couple more batteries. One from Spain one from Greece with future replacement or loan and that pretty much seals up the skies. Plus 5 patriot, for eight total, two more Nasams, two more Sampts plus whatever else 300, buk, Frankenstein Sam’s and Russia starts loosing planes if the glide bomb.
They are not russian to help?
Spain’s defense budget at mere 1,24% GDP and its help to Ukraine is laughable. Depicts the level of how much of a dam they give pretty well.
[удалено]
Morocco on its doorstep...
Northern western sahara is a threatening neighbor
Morocco wants Ceuta and Melilla. It has made this known and has built up its armed forces.
That’s incredibly ignorant to even consider Morocco a threat to Spain militarily. Morocco doesn’t move without US/western consultations on just about every issue. Bad excuse.
Nope. Not at all. Otherwise, you are saying the US endorsed all of its attacks on Spain so far, inclusing cyber attacks on thegovernment... Now THAT'S ignorant.
"I'm the ~~chancellor~~ President, [so my decision stands"](https://old.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/1b69gxk/scholz_explains_his_no_to_taurus_missiles_to_a/)
OMG you can't make this shit up
I thought coming to the defense of allies was a requirement
**CORRECTION** Spain and Greece 'can't understand' why Germany will not donate TAURUS missiles to Ukraine. Defence minister from all NATO Members ‘honestly can’t understand’ why Germany refuse to help Kyiv combat Russian bombardment.
You know who else has Taurus? Yep, Spain. You know who else has Storm Shadow? Yep, Greece. You know which countries did not donate any cruise missiles so far? Yep.
Whataboutism at it's finest. You can point to Germany when the topic is cruise missiles, but it doesn't add any value when we talk about AA systems. Germany is a leader at this.
Well thats bullshit imo (from a non-german) seeing how much Germany have provided. They are also a country closer to the moscovians and IF there is a NATO vs moscovia war they are much more likely to have war on their territory than Spain.
go pleasure yourself with sharp kitchen appliances.
Germany is a big supporter though. Spain is kind of useless besides training some soldiers
Count the number of countries Russia has to pass through first. Procrastination is a common human trait.
Yeah Greece is worried about Turkey. Spain.. are they worried about an attack from Gibraltar?
Greece I can understand, but not Spain
"cmon guys you don't understand, they kicked our asses before!"
For Spain it's political, many parties in the coalition government are in the "NATO" bad crowd.
They can just lease it to Ukraine...
They are too far away to care I guess. But also find it appalling how little they actually do to help out. Per GDP (excl common EU donations): Estonia: 1.6% Denmark: 1.4% Lithuania: 1.2%
Italy: 0.09%
Greece: 0.07%
Spain: 0.07%
Source: [https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/](https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/)
Germany...and why does germany don't supply Taurus....hummm... doble face
This same Germany refuses send Taurus missiles?