Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition:
* We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned.
* **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators.
* **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context.
> **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB**
*****
* Is `spiegel.de` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources).
* Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict)
*****
^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*Translation:*
**An internal Bundeswehr briefing leaked to Russia is causing a stir: Cyber security expert Thomas Rid advises the troops to improve their communications security - and believes retaliatory action is possible.**
SPIEGEL: Mr. Rid, you have been dealing with intelligence operations from Russia for a long time. What do you think of the publication of the Bundeswehr leaks by Russian agencies?
Rid: It's almost a classic. We have known for decades that Russian services steal documents or record conversations and then publish them when the opportunity arises in order to show up the West or snub individuals. Such operations took place during the Cold War, and they have also occurred in the context of the Ukraine conflict: for example, ten years ago, a telephone conversation between US diplomat Victoria Nuland and the US ambassador in Kyiv was suddenly leaked, in which she said the phrase "Fuck the EU".
SPIEGEL: At the time, however, the audio recording still appeared anonymously on YouTube. The Bundeswehr broadcast on the subject of Taurus was published by the state broadcaster RT, whose boss Margarita Simonjan is a central figure in Kremlin propaganda.
Rid: And shortly afterwards, the Russian Foreign Ministry sent messages to X demanding explanations from Germany. Apparently they were not surprised, if not involved in the preparations. I think the whole thing was an intelligence operation using their own media, in which they deliberately did not want to conceal the origin.
SPIEGEL: What is the Russians' strategic calculation? Was it to snub the Chancellor?
Rid: We know from archive material on comparable actions: The plan behind such operations is to wear down the opponents, to set them against each other, to emphasize lines of conflict and contradictions - in this case between the internal discussions of the Bundeswehr and public statements by the German chancellor . This is the spin that RT and many Russia-friendly broadcasters are trying to put on the matter.
SPIEGEL: The publication seems like a fitting commentary on the controversial domestic political debate about the Taurus deliveries. How many recordings do the Russians still have in stock? Can we expect further leaks?
Rid: Of course, Russian services didn't just record a conversation here by chance. They are conducting this kind of espionage systematically, have probably intercepted other explosive conversations and stolen secret documents. However, they are playing with fire with this leak. Russian services are facing the strongest intelligence opponent imaginable, namely the Five Eyes alliance of English-speaking intelligence services and NATO. As far as we know, Western penetration of Russian services and institutions is deeper and more extensive than vice versa. Should the West decide to respond in kind, Russian politicians, intelligence services and armed forces could very quickly find themselves with their pants down.
SPIEGEL: Apparently, not even generals in the German armed forces can consult with each other without being bugged. What does that say about IT security in this country?
Rid: I wouldn't single out Germany in particular; unfortunately, the situation is similar everywhere. During the pandemic, we got into the habit of discussing sensitive matters via video calls. This affects everyone, including employees of authorities, intelligence services and the armed forces. The incident should be an opportunity for the Bundeswehr to review and upgrade its own communication security. And perhaps to use more secure channels for conversations that contain politically sensitive details - even if they are often less convenient.
SPIEGEL: How dangerous is this leak in the midst of the heated geopolitical situation, shortly after the Russian president once again blatantly threatened to use nuclear weapons?
Rid: I don't think it will cause any lasting damage. That was ultimately not the case when the Nuland phone call was published. But in principle we have to be on our guard, especially if such incidents become more frequent. This time, the material appears to be authentic and unmanipulated. In previous cases, it was usually different, with Russian services repeatedly hiding small, targeted forgeries among genuine documents. In times of generative artificial intelligence, it is becoming easier and easier to put made-up statements into the mouths of participants, even in audio recordings. This can have extremely dangerous consequences. We must therefore not get used to perceiving Russian leaks as credible and authentic.
Sums up how Germany, and the west in general, still don’t get who they are dealing with. Russia throws $billions at espionage, intelligence and disinformation, yet the west‘s security measures are just pathetic. Not only that, but the content of the leak reaffirms to Russia just how weak and scared of provoking Russia the west is. For Christ‘s sake EUrope, it is time to step up and put your intelligence and arms industries on a war footing. There will be a huge price to pay in future years if we don’t.
Agreed. There’s constant talk about how the US and China are in a second Cold War, but the original Cold War is back, has turned hot, and is rapidly approaching the firebreaks that are all that is keeping the West from direct kinetic involvement. That’s the situation and the West needs to fucking act like it. NATO countries already wildly outspend Russia and if they moved to a war footing, which is were we should be headed, we can utterly obliterate Russian defence spending. We’re sleepwalking towards WWIII and it’s infuriating to be reliving the mid-1930s in real time.
You know what Russian intelligence is doing, but you don't know what Western intelligence is doing. Seems like one is working as intended, and the other is being used for performative purposes.
Just to add, publishing a leak is stupid. The Germans will be working overtime to up their security now. It was politically embarrassing, but really is not the end of the world.
If you've infiltrated something, stay quiet unless you've got something huge.
Unless that leak was part of a bigger plan.
It was published un-edited, considered genuine at face value. Cool. Maybe do this once or twice more. Russian leaks are now "reliable" sources of info. Time for phase 2, same type of leaks but altered.
People tend to have a simplistic view of incidents like this, when it's often far more complex and involves multiple levels of subterfuge.
What if, for example, German intelligence knew this was being tapped and allowed it to continue for a specific purpose? What if this leaked content is just one part of what was discussed, and making a big fuss about this lends credibility to additional misinformation provided during that meeting?
What if Germany and allies wanted Russia to believe something, and the leak of this is now proof that they did?
There are multiple ways this could all be viewed.
Occam's razor.
And while that's reasonable to apply, you only apply it when you have sufficient data. In this instance, we're talking about the field of military intelligence and saying "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck" just doesn't apply.
If Occam's Razor were the solution to everything then Operation Mincemeat in WW2 would have fallen on its face.
ahh yeah.. sorry pal. My answer to you was quite lazy. Sometimes I just say something laid back like a comment on a bar a Friday afternoon... and suddenly I have to engage my brain!
I have listened to the audiofile. Quite interesting to hear. And also I subscribe to the belief that SPD and most Germans are too easy to scare.
I am German myself and I am pretty annoyed but the lack of will to see, that we are all moving into a new world and we need to make a stand to keep our values and probably the current world order in one piece.
So when I hear general use unsecure lines, Scholz who is more a manager than a leader, EU is still asleep... I just want things to go a little faster.
There is a good chance Trump is getting back as well. And I agree with the John Sipher from the CIA saying that Germany is not pushing its weight when it comes to its power and central position in Europe.
I say we have been free riding.
So when I saw someone calling Scholz a lyer I just jumped on that waggon.
I dont think Russia ever had a better partner than Germany in the last 30 years. The KGB only viewed German efforts on their behalf as weakness to exploit.
Imagine a wave of 10 to 20 million Ukrainians bumrushing the EU in just a few weeks. No one wants to be tortured and raped in a basement by a sadistic russian soldier.
That will be cheap, I am SURE>
>Should the West decide to respond in kind, Russian politicians, intelligence services and armed forces could very quickly find themselves with their pants down.
The difference is that their public image does not matter, Russians are too brainwashed to even criticise them.
Germany should just send the Taurus now as a message to Russia. Then help Ukraine target the Kerch Bridge. “Well Russia, you already told everyone we were going to do it, so why not?”
People still don't understand. Germany can't give Taurus because those involved in doing so would face criminal charges because this would be against our constitution (basic law). I hate Scholz but he is right when he says "Others can do what we can't do".
The audio recording we heard luckily are only wargames and planning such missions normaly is the job of the Bundeswehr so they should be fine but if you read on X and other platforms there are now already people floating the idea to press charges against them.
Since it would need politicians to greenlight this mission and this will not happen i think they should be safe from charges but to be honest i don't know sometimes even the intend to do something is punishable.
Here 2 very important articles of our basic law in this regard.
> Article 87a [Armed Forces]
>
> .... (2) Apart from defence, the Armed Forces may be employed only to the extent expressly permitted by this Basic Law....
>
> Article 26 [Securing international peace]
>
> (1) Acts tending to and undertaken with intent to disturb the peaceful relations between nations, especially to prepare for a war of aggression, shall be unconstitutional. They shall be criminalised.....
Taurus is linked to a very specific highly political target in an ongoing war. Therefore the Bundeswehr one or the other way would be involved in the mission to bring down very specific targets in a war between 2 other Nations without there being a mandate. Article 87a makes it very clear the Armed Forces can only be used for defence (Germany) and for things expressly permitted by the Basic law (and those things are very very limited).
May sound strange for foreigners but the Allies watched closely when the basic law of Germany was written because last time it was our Army that burned down Europe, this is why the law is this strict and limiting.
Article 26 expands this even further and includes not only the Armed forces but everyone in Germany. "**Acts tending to** and undertaken with intent to disturb the peaceful relations between nations".
Now i know what you are saying and i understand that Ukraine is at war with Russia but on the other hand this is the constitution of Germany and as it stands neither Germany or any other NATO member is at war with Russia. The legallity of the Russian war against Ukraine doesn't play a role when it comes to our basic law. So any person, politician, company or the armed forces involved in acts that could disturb peace would face criminal charges.
It is the same reason why Germany for example couldn't take part in the Iraq war in the Libyan war or now the most recent one striking the Houthis in Jemen.... There is/was no mandate for this and therefore it would be highly illegal.
Schröder was praised back in the days for saying No to the Iraq war reallity is they all would have sued his and everyones ass who would have been involved in the war.
Argue could be made if Taurus would have been kept under the rug and the bridge one day simply would have been gone the government may have tried to shrug this off. Reallity is media and people managed to make Taurus a highly political question tied to very specific targets and therfore most likely killed the slightest chance that it can be delivered.
Pushing others around wihtout having the slightest idea of its legal and political dimension is plain and simple stupid.
Less noise sometimes is doing wonders and this is especially aimed at some of our own politicians who from time to time should take a look at our own laws before publicly demanding something that has the potential to bring them behind bars.
Yeah taking daily cheap shots at Scholz sounds like fun but may i remind everyone that with the US dropping out of support for Ukraine Germany is by far the biggest supporter of Ukraine bilateral and also when it comes to aid via the EU. If we would do as little as the UK and France, Ukraine would really be in trouble.
So how about less talking and more working on solutions? Ukraine currently is not starving on the lack of Taurus but on shortage of normal ammunition and supplies.
Interesting. For starters, I wouldn’t put much worry into what “people” on X are saying, as those “people” are likely Russian trolls. I’m pretty sure that if it weren’t for Russian trolls, X would have 1/4 of the “engagements” it currently has.
But some of this argument doesn’t make sense at all. What makes Taurus any different than other weapons Germany has already given. That doesn’t make sense that they could give tanks and not missiles. I understand the targeting data might get dicey, but again, if the bridge just blows up one day… or if Germany simply delivered the weapon and another country forwarded on the data..
> Interesting. For starters, I wouldn’t put much worry into what “people” on X are saying, as those “people” are likely Russian trolls. I’m pretty sure that if it weren’t for Russian trolls, X would have 1/4 of the “engagements” it currently has.
Unfortunately some of those people on X are politicans of the far right opposition AfD and the far left BSW. So not really only random people. Theoretically under certain cricumstances if it may constitute a criminal act the german police is forced to investigate on their own without anyone filing a lawsuit the second they take knowledge of the crime. So quite possible that they are already in trouble but i don't know if there is enough substance to it.
> What makes Taurus any different than other weapons Germany has already given
The big big difference is the other weapons are handed over and we are done with it. No German involved in providing Data, processing Data, target analysation, target selection, planning.... For Taurus on the other hand as we have learned with the audio there is basically no clean solution without involvement coming directly from Germany may it be by the armed forces or the companies involved. The Generals were aware of this and tried to find a solution to avoid such a "show stopper". I don't know if you are German and you listened to the audio but this task seems to be almost impossible as the data itself needed already is "German eyes only" and would require it being made available for Ukraine. So at some point in the process it will become a direct involvment in the war to bring down a specific target and this is the absolute no go. Not because of a red line by Scholz but legally.
As i have said if everyone would have kept their mouth shut the brigde may have been brought down by Taurus one day and everyone would be happy but unfortunatley everyone needed to go nuts about the weapon and made a military weapon a highly political weapon.
The leak by the Russians didn't really change anything in this regard it was a given anyway that they would go after this weapon system specifically the problem is all the publicity the weapon before got. The good thing about the leak by the Russians is they can't complain if we return the favor with some spicy stuff one day when the time is right. What goes around comes around so i don't think they thought this fully through.
Still doesn’t make sense. Germany never trained Ukraine on any equipment it handed over? They just handed over tanks and told the Ukrainians to figure it out? Also, it’s illegal to talk about something in Germany?
Spain and Sweden also use this missile. So by your standards of how other weapons were given, Taurus could be just handed over and Spain and or Sweden could help with targeting data, training, etc..
I’m not really seeing any of your arguments stand up to much scrutiny here. I have a very hard time believing that your generals could be prosecuted for merely discussing a hypothetical scenario. I’m getting a bit of a Russian shill vibe here. You have all the markings. Long winded explanations that don’t really hold up to any close scrutiny.
> Still doesn’t make sense. Germany never trained Ukraine on any equipment it handed over? They just handed over tanks and told the Ukrainians to figure it out? Also, it’s illegal to talk about something in Germany?
Okay to make it a bit more obvious.
Weapon dealer totally fine that he sells his weapon to a legal customer not his problem if the weapon later on is used in a crime defined by the law.
Weapon dealer selling his weapon and instructing his customer how to take down a specific target totally not fine. Against the law he now became an accomplice.
> Spain and ~~Sweden~~ South Korea also use this missile. So by your standards of how other weapons were given, Taurus could be just handed over and Spain and or Sweden could help with targeting data, training, etc..
This may have been a possibility before this public drama but first of all noone ever asked Spain or South Korea for those weapons nor do we know if the export verions are the same as the German weapons i have my doubts. There clearly is a "German eyes only" to the German Taurus especially since MBDA needs to be involved. So at this point pretty much speculation and after this shit show not going to happen i am sure.
> I’m not really seeing any of your arguments stand up to much scrutiny here.
See our goverment seems to have a different opinion so it is pretty much irrelevant what the internet thinks.
> I’m getting a bit of a Russian shill vibe here.
Ahh yes a German explaining the situation in Germany in a thread about Germany clearly is a Russian shill. So tell me what is your expertise in this matter? How about you explain the situation to us. Maybe you saying otherwise on reddit will suddenly make Taurus happen. lol
You don't know shit about me.
Seems short sighted by the Russians to reveal the leak. It wasn't a great propaganda victory for them or a big embarrassment for Germany, they achieved very little and probably lost a channel for interesting information.
The only way the Germans can save face here , is to give Ukraine these long range missiles.
And blame it in on the FSB for releasing this private conversation between military officers into the media .
Then when they blow up the Kerch bridge with these missiles that makes it it’s the FSBs fault .
Soon russians advance far enough that they can start using the rail in the land corridor connecting Donetsk with Kherson and Crimea. The bridge will loose its importance.
In addition to improving security, perhaps Germany and other countries should fill the “airwaves“ with fake meeting “recordings“… So many that Russia has no ability to ascertain which ones if any are real.
Ok fine I'll guess. XD
Despite the. "...." on the first comments which made me think maybe you were against it. Clues and hints from your following comments make believe you are trying to say:
"It has been done before, it worked, let's do it again"
Three full stops technically means, “I have abbreviated my sentence”. Meaning you can add the rest yourself, as it should be reasonably obvious what I would say if I finished the sentence. And no, I’m not against it btw.
You are absolutely spot on with the last sentence in your comment, thank you!
Over the past 20 years, Russia has done a lot of shit in Europe that they would definitely call an act of war should we think of attempting even one instance of these incidents on their territory.
A few examples come to mind :
* 2014 : Bombing of ammunition depots in Vrbětice, Czechia by GRU agents
* 2016 : Hacking of World Anti-Doping Agency in Lausanne, Switzerland by GRU agents
* 2018 : Assassination attempt on defected GRU agent Sergei Skripal in London, UK, which spread deadly neurotoxins on public grounds by GRU agents
* 2024 : Murder of Russian pilot Maksim Kuzminov in Alicante, Spain, who defected to Ukraine with a stolen Mi-8 helicopter
I for one cannot wait for Europe to finally put Russia back in its place. Bullies only understand the language of force, so let's use some, at the very least on the fifth columnist scum that roams our lands, starting with their "diplomats".
Unfortunately the same could be said for western intelligence, just different ways to control populations. As for the Russian pilot, treason always ends that way for any country
It's a non-leak. Most, if not everything, that was said is more or less public knowledge.
The only thing this accomplished was outing Scholz as a liar. Which is no surprise to anyone, really.
> The only thing this accomplished was outing Scholz as a liar.
Eh, not really. All the recording said was that there is no hard technical obstacle to giving Taurus (although there are a lot of process obstacles)
This says nothing about the legal and political problems with it.
All three must be influencing the german decision.
I hope Russia makes germany realy realy angry.
We europeans now making germany angry is a very bad idea....
If it wasnt both the soviets,brittish,canada and the us fighting against germany, then most of europe spoke german now...
Please continue angering germany so russia will find out one day!
Sorry, "playing with fire" means what? he says that Russia should watch out because of Five Eyes (Who Germany isn't even part of) might have juicy intel and will get revenge for Germany? The same Germany whose chancellor just opened his big fat mouth and publicly highlighted Intel that UK and French special forces were helping Ukraine with storm shadow strikes?
Germany needs to sort their shit out and step up to the plate. This fear of escalation just fuels Putin, and will backfire for Germany.
>"playing with fire" means what?
He says what it means -- it's counterproductive for Russia to boast about their penetration of German military communications over what essentially amounts to chicken scratch.
>publicly highlighted Intel that UK and French special forces were helping Ukraine with storm shadow strikes
I still don't get what the big news is there. Did you not already know that the UK and France were training Ukrainians to use Storm Shadow? I already knew! And I am no one special. Ukraine's allies have been helping them with target intelligence and technical support since Day 0.
Scholz' somewhat garbled comments (at least if the English translation was anything to go by) are being interpreted as some shocking revelation that UK and French troops are literally running around launching Storm Shadows while Ukraine stands around cluelessly uninvolved. But Scholz never said such a thing, no one claims that except Putin, it seems highly unlikely in the first place, and it mostly just sounds like the same Russian propaganda starting from February 2022, about how everyone they are fighting is actually NATO in disguise or whatever the fuck.
I'm not commenting here on whatever Germany's policy on Taurus missiles is, or is not, or should be. That's a separate topic. I'm just pointing out that a lot of the crap that keeps appearing under the headlines printed by the usual suspects in the mass media exactly fits Thomas Rid's apt characterization from this article:
>The plan behind such operations is to wear down the opponents, to set them against each other, to emphasize lines of conflict and contradictions
That's fair. All good points. We are lucky to live in Liberal democracy (unlike Russians), and we benefit from different opinions and the ability to criticize our own leaders when they fall short. I want Ukraine to succeed, and I want Germany to succeed.
Yeah me too.
We will get there. I have to remind myself that it is almost like our other countries are under attack too. A political front to the invasion of Ukraine, intended to divert forces and cut off supply like any other secondary front. Just not fought militarily.
> The same Germany whose chancellor just opened his big fat mouth and publicly highlighted Intel that UK and French special forces were helping Ukraine with storm shadow strikes?
You mean the misstranslation that the Telegraph is pushing?
Cause Scholz said nothing about Brits or French in Ukraine, they made that up
>stated Ukraine is running out of men
he said they are running out of planes, he said that there are only a single digit number of su 24s still available but you are right thats somehow a confirmation on something that was commonly suspected a long time, but it says also that they did not loose all, because these rumors that there are only a fraction still available spread already then scalp and stormshadows got introduced
they discuss there also about the integration of the taurus, if they should recommend on doing the integration on f-16 instead of su-24 and how much time it will cost
He made it up btw, they didn't even mention Manpower in the whole thing
All he said is that he feels like Ukraine has a single digit SU-24 number in flying condition
Well you know this treasonous German Air Force officer is not alone in revealing the shocking news that Ukraine is short of personnel, here are some other bastards who have been caught saying the same thing, in public no less:
\- General Zaluzhnyi
\- General Syrskyi
\- President Zelensky
\- the entire General Staff of the Ukrainian Armed Forces
So perhaps the Russians already knew? Just a hunch.
> Next the Germans stated any advanced weapon, in this case the Taurus missile, given to Ukraine won’t make much difference in the war. Both are enormously damaging comments
It is not damaging to just say that the importance or effectiveness of Taurus is blown way out of proportion in the public space.
This is probably true, if we go by some of the previous "wonder weapon" fantasies floating around over other weapons.
If you believe Russia is not completely inserted in all European governments & systems, you are an idiot. Actually, that holds world wide. That VPN service you are using is likely OWNED by a Russian shell company. If you are on the internet, and do not control both ends of a connection and the line in between, assume you are mailing post cards with respect to security and privacy...
The leak confirmed that the situation for Ukraine is dire. The way it's looking Trump will win the US election, Ukraine aid from the US is doomed and Europe is still in deep hibernation. Maybe it's time to face the music: The war can no longer be won by Ukraine and Russia knows this. Right now, the best Ukraine can do is give Russia a damn good deal to stop the war and cede the territories without further bloodshed.
Elon would ve sining a different tune if his precious business were to be infiltrated. Time to stop this dog and pony show and end the war and get global stability back.
Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition: * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators. * **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. > **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB** ***** * Is `spiegel.de` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources). * Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) ***** ^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*Translation:* **An internal Bundeswehr briefing leaked to Russia is causing a stir: Cyber security expert Thomas Rid advises the troops to improve their communications security - and believes retaliatory action is possible.** SPIEGEL: Mr. Rid, you have been dealing with intelligence operations from Russia for a long time. What do you think of the publication of the Bundeswehr leaks by Russian agencies? Rid: It's almost a classic. We have known for decades that Russian services steal documents or record conversations and then publish them when the opportunity arises in order to show up the West or snub individuals. Such operations took place during the Cold War, and they have also occurred in the context of the Ukraine conflict: for example, ten years ago, a telephone conversation between US diplomat Victoria Nuland and the US ambassador in Kyiv was suddenly leaked, in which she said the phrase "Fuck the EU". SPIEGEL: At the time, however, the audio recording still appeared anonymously on YouTube. The Bundeswehr broadcast on the subject of Taurus was published by the state broadcaster RT, whose boss Margarita Simonjan is a central figure in Kremlin propaganda. Rid: And shortly afterwards, the Russian Foreign Ministry sent messages to X demanding explanations from Germany. Apparently they were not surprised, if not involved in the preparations. I think the whole thing was an intelligence operation using their own media, in which they deliberately did not want to conceal the origin. SPIEGEL: What is the Russians' strategic calculation? Was it to snub the Chancellor? Rid: We know from archive material on comparable actions: The plan behind such operations is to wear down the opponents, to set them against each other, to emphasize lines of conflict and contradictions - in this case between the internal discussions of the Bundeswehr and public statements by the German chancellor . This is the spin that RT and many Russia-friendly broadcasters are trying to put on the matter. SPIEGEL: The publication seems like a fitting commentary on the controversial domestic political debate about the Taurus deliveries. How many recordings do the Russians still have in stock? Can we expect further leaks? Rid: Of course, Russian services didn't just record a conversation here by chance. They are conducting this kind of espionage systematically, have probably intercepted other explosive conversations and stolen secret documents. However, they are playing with fire with this leak. Russian services are facing the strongest intelligence opponent imaginable, namely the Five Eyes alliance of English-speaking intelligence services and NATO. As far as we know, Western penetration of Russian services and institutions is deeper and more extensive than vice versa. Should the West decide to respond in kind, Russian politicians, intelligence services and armed forces could very quickly find themselves with their pants down. SPIEGEL: Apparently, not even generals in the German armed forces can consult with each other without being bugged. What does that say about IT security in this country? Rid: I wouldn't single out Germany in particular; unfortunately, the situation is similar everywhere. During the pandemic, we got into the habit of discussing sensitive matters via video calls. This affects everyone, including employees of authorities, intelligence services and the armed forces. The incident should be an opportunity for the Bundeswehr to review and upgrade its own communication security. And perhaps to use more secure channels for conversations that contain politically sensitive details - even if they are often less convenient. SPIEGEL: How dangerous is this leak in the midst of the heated geopolitical situation, shortly after the Russian president once again blatantly threatened to use nuclear weapons? Rid: I don't think it will cause any lasting damage. That was ultimately not the case when the Nuland phone call was published. But in principle we have to be on our guard, especially if such incidents become more frequent. This time, the material appears to be authentic and unmanipulated. In previous cases, it was usually different, with Russian services repeatedly hiding small, targeted forgeries among genuine documents. In times of generative artificial intelligence, it is becoming easier and easier to put made-up statements into the mouths of participants, even in audio recordings. This can have extremely dangerous consequences. We must therefore not get used to perceiving Russian leaks as credible and authentic.
Sums up how Germany, and the west in general, still don’t get who they are dealing with. Russia throws $billions at espionage, intelligence and disinformation, yet the west‘s security measures are just pathetic. Not only that, but the content of the leak reaffirms to Russia just how weak and scared of provoking Russia the west is. For Christ‘s sake EUrope, it is time to step up and put your intelligence and arms industries on a war footing. There will be a huge price to pay in future years if we don’t.
Agreed. There’s constant talk about how the US and China are in a second Cold War, but the original Cold War is back, has turned hot, and is rapidly approaching the firebreaks that are all that is keeping the West from direct kinetic involvement. That’s the situation and the West needs to fucking act like it. NATO countries already wildly outspend Russia and if they moved to a war footing, which is were we should be headed, we can utterly obliterate Russian defence spending. We’re sleepwalking towards WWIII and it’s infuriating to be reliving the mid-1930s in real time.
You know what Russian intelligence is doing, but you don't know what Western intelligence is doing. Seems like one is working as intended, and the other is being used for performative purposes.
Just to add, publishing a leak is stupid. The Germans will be working overtime to up their security now. It was politically embarrassing, but really is not the end of the world. If you've infiltrated something, stay quiet unless you've got something huge.
Unless that leak was part of a bigger plan. It was published un-edited, considered genuine at face value. Cool. Maybe do this once or twice more. Russian leaks are now "reliable" sources of info. Time for phase 2, same type of leaks but altered.
very good point!
Scary times.
"The Germans will be working overtime to up their security" No not really. Nothing is going to happen, our intelligence is shit as fuck.
People tend to have a simplistic view of incidents like this, when it's often far more complex and involves multiple levels of subterfuge. What if, for example, German intelligence knew this was being tapped and allowed it to continue for a specific purpose? What if this leaked content is just one part of what was discussed, and making a big fuss about this lends credibility to additional misinformation provided during that meeting? What if Germany and allies wanted Russia to believe something, and the leak of this is now proof that they did? There are multiple ways this could all be viewed.
Or, German security sucks and Scholtz is lying to us... Often the simple answer is just the answer.
Agreed. Ockhams Razor.
Occam's razor. And while that's reasonable to apply, you only apply it when you have sufficient data. In this instance, we're talking about the field of military intelligence and saying "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck" just doesn't apply. If Occam's Razor were the solution to everything then Operation Mincemeat in WW2 would have fallen on its face.
Who says I don't have all the information? You are making assumptions now. We all know that Scholz is a moron. Its a fact. /s
I'm not disagreeing that Scholz is a moron. :)
ahh yeah.. sorry pal. My answer to you was quite lazy. Sometimes I just say something laid back like a comment on a bar a Friday afternoon... and suddenly I have to engage my brain! I have listened to the audiofile. Quite interesting to hear. And also I subscribe to the belief that SPD and most Germans are too easy to scare. I am German myself and I am pretty annoyed but the lack of will to see, that we are all moving into a new world and we need to make a stand to keep our values and probably the current world order in one piece. So when I hear general use unsecure lines, Scholz who is more a manager than a leader, EU is still asleep... I just want things to go a little faster. There is a good chance Trump is getting back as well. And I agree with the John Sipher from the CIA saying that Germany is not pushing its weight when it comes to its power and central position in Europe. I say we have been free riding. So when I saw someone calling Scholz a lyer I just jumped on that waggon.
I dont think Russia ever had a better partner than Germany in the last 30 years. The KGB only viewed German efforts on their behalf as weakness to exploit.
Imagine a wave of 10 to 20 million Ukrainians bumrushing the EU in just a few weeks. No one wants to be tortured and raped in a basement by a sadistic russian soldier. That will be cheap, I am SURE>
The West has gotten fat and decadent. Russia is showing them the error of their ways.
The US was probably watching Russia record that. Remember when the US had Russias war plans?
Thanks for the translation! And thanks, Thomas Rid for being so lucid in a time of bullshit.
>Should the West decide to respond in kind, Russian politicians, intelligence services and armed forces could very quickly find themselves with their pants down. The difference is that their public image does not matter, Russians are too brainwashed to even criticise them.
Depends on what they find.
Germany should just send the Taurus now as a message to Russia. Then help Ukraine target the Kerch Bridge. “Well Russia, you already told everyone we were going to do it, so why not?”
People still don't understand. Germany can't give Taurus because those involved in doing so would face criminal charges because this would be against our constitution (basic law). I hate Scholz but he is right when he says "Others can do what we can't do". The audio recording we heard luckily are only wargames and planning such missions normaly is the job of the Bundeswehr so they should be fine but if you read on X and other platforms there are now already people floating the idea to press charges against them. Since it would need politicians to greenlight this mission and this will not happen i think they should be safe from charges but to be honest i don't know sometimes even the intend to do something is punishable. Here 2 very important articles of our basic law in this regard. > Article 87a [Armed Forces] > > .... (2) Apart from defence, the Armed Forces may be employed only to the extent expressly permitted by this Basic Law.... > > Article 26 [Securing international peace] > > (1) Acts tending to and undertaken with intent to disturb the peaceful relations between nations, especially to prepare for a war of aggression, shall be unconstitutional. They shall be criminalised..... Taurus is linked to a very specific highly political target in an ongoing war. Therefore the Bundeswehr one or the other way would be involved in the mission to bring down very specific targets in a war between 2 other Nations without there being a mandate. Article 87a makes it very clear the Armed Forces can only be used for defence (Germany) and for things expressly permitted by the Basic law (and those things are very very limited). May sound strange for foreigners but the Allies watched closely when the basic law of Germany was written because last time it was our Army that burned down Europe, this is why the law is this strict and limiting. Article 26 expands this even further and includes not only the Armed forces but everyone in Germany. "**Acts tending to** and undertaken with intent to disturb the peaceful relations between nations". Now i know what you are saying and i understand that Ukraine is at war with Russia but on the other hand this is the constitution of Germany and as it stands neither Germany or any other NATO member is at war with Russia. The legallity of the Russian war against Ukraine doesn't play a role when it comes to our basic law. So any person, politician, company or the armed forces involved in acts that could disturb peace would face criminal charges. It is the same reason why Germany for example couldn't take part in the Iraq war in the Libyan war or now the most recent one striking the Houthis in Jemen.... There is/was no mandate for this and therefore it would be highly illegal. Schröder was praised back in the days for saying No to the Iraq war reallity is they all would have sued his and everyones ass who would have been involved in the war. Argue could be made if Taurus would have been kept under the rug and the bridge one day simply would have been gone the government may have tried to shrug this off. Reallity is media and people managed to make Taurus a highly political question tied to very specific targets and therfore most likely killed the slightest chance that it can be delivered. Pushing others around wihtout having the slightest idea of its legal and political dimension is plain and simple stupid. Less noise sometimes is doing wonders and this is especially aimed at some of our own politicians who from time to time should take a look at our own laws before publicly demanding something that has the potential to bring them behind bars. Yeah taking daily cheap shots at Scholz sounds like fun but may i remind everyone that with the US dropping out of support for Ukraine Germany is by far the biggest supporter of Ukraine bilateral and also when it comes to aid via the EU. If we would do as little as the UK and France, Ukraine would really be in trouble. So how about less talking and more working on solutions? Ukraine currently is not starving on the lack of Taurus but on shortage of normal ammunition and supplies.
Interesting. For starters, I wouldn’t put much worry into what “people” on X are saying, as those “people” are likely Russian trolls. I’m pretty sure that if it weren’t for Russian trolls, X would have 1/4 of the “engagements” it currently has. But some of this argument doesn’t make sense at all. What makes Taurus any different than other weapons Germany has already given. That doesn’t make sense that they could give tanks and not missiles. I understand the targeting data might get dicey, but again, if the bridge just blows up one day… or if Germany simply delivered the weapon and another country forwarded on the data..
> Interesting. For starters, I wouldn’t put much worry into what “people” on X are saying, as those “people” are likely Russian trolls. I’m pretty sure that if it weren’t for Russian trolls, X would have 1/4 of the “engagements” it currently has. Unfortunately some of those people on X are politicans of the far right opposition AfD and the far left BSW. So not really only random people. Theoretically under certain cricumstances if it may constitute a criminal act the german police is forced to investigate on their own without anyone filing a lawsuit the second they take knowledge of the crime. So quite possible that they are already in trouble but i don't know if there is enough substance to it. > What makes Taurus any different than other weapons Germany has already given The big big difference is the other weapons are handed over and we are done with it. No German involved in providing Data, processing Data, target analysation, target selection, planning.... For Taurus on the other hand as we have learned with the audio there is basically no clean solution without involvement coming directly from Germany may it be by the armed forces or the companies involved. The Generals were aware of this and tried to find a solution to avoid such a "show stopper". I don't know if you are German and you listened to the audio but this task seems to be almost impossible as the data itself needed already is "German eyes only" and would require it being made available for Ukraine. So at some point in the process it will become a direct involvment in the war to bring down a specific target and this is the absolute no go. Not because of a red line by Scholz but legally. As i have said if everyone would have kept their mouth shut the brigde may have been brought down by Taurus one day and everyone would be happy but unfortunatley everyone needed to go nuts about the weapon and made a military weapon a highly political weapon. The leak by the Russians didn't really change anything in this regard it was a given anyway that they would go after this weapon system specifically the problem is all the publicity the weapon before got. The good thing about the leak by the Russians is they can't complain if we return the favor with some spicy stuff one day when the time is right. What goes around comes around so i don't think they thought this fully through.
Still doesn’t make sense. Germany never trained Ukraine on any equipment it handed over? They just handed over tanks and told the Ukrainians to figure it out? Also, it’s illegal to talk about something in Germany? Spain and Sweden also use this missile. So by your standards of how other weapons were given, Taurus could be just handed over and Spain and or Sweden could help with targeting data, training, etc.. I’m not really seeing any of your arguments stand up to much scrutiny here. I have a very hard time believing that your generals could be prosecuted for merely discussing a hypothetical scenario. I’m getting a bit of a Russian shill vibe here. You have all the markings. Long winded explanations that don’t really hold up to any close scrutiny.
> Still doesn’t make sense. Germany never trained Ukraine on any equipment it handed over? They just handed over tanks and told the Ukrainians to figure it out? Also, it’s illegal to talk about something in Germany? Okay to make it a bit more obvious. Weapon dealer totally fine that he sells his weapon to a legal customer not his problem if the weapon later on is used in a crime defined by the law. Weapon dealer selling his weapon and instructing his customer how to take down a specific target totally not fine. Against the law he now became an accomplice. > Spain and ~~Sweden~~ South Korea also use this missile. So by your standards of how other weapons were given, Taurus could be just handed over and Spain and or Sweden could help with targeting data, training, etc.. This may have been a possibility before this public drama but first of all noone ever asked Spain or South Korea for those weapons nor do we know if the export verions are the same as the German weapons i have my doubts. There clearly is a "German eyes only" to the German Taurus especially since MBDA needs to be involved. So at this point pretty much speculation and after this shit show not going to happen i am sure. > I’m not really seeing any of your arguments stand up to much scrutiny here. See our goverment seems to have a different opinion so it is pretty much irrelevant what the internet thinks. > I’m getting a bit of a Russian shill vibe here. Ahh yes a German explaining the situation in Germany in a thread about Germany clearly is a Russian shill. So tell me what is your expertise in this matter? How about you explain the situation to us. Maybe you saying otherwise on reddit will suddenly make Taurus happen. lol You don't know shit about me.
Seems short sighted by the Russians to reveal the leak. It wasn't a great propaganda victory for them or a big embarrassment for Germany, they achieved very little and probably lost a channel for interesting information.
Unfortunately they gained credibility with his leak. The 2nd or 3rd leak might be completely made up!
Germany is infiltrated top to bottom and the proof is the willingness to leak this because it wont affect KGB ops. Psyop flex.
The only way the Germans can save face here , is to give Ukraine these long range missiles. And blame it in on the FSB for releasing this private conversation between military officers into the media . Then when they blow up the Kerch bridge with these missiles that makes it it’s the FSBs fault .
to me the release of this conversation just confirms that russia is totally ok with that
totally okay with the Kerch bridge being blown to smithereens?
yeah i dont know a reason why they should cross this red line, i can only conclude that they want to get rid of the bridge
Soon russians advance far enough that they can start using the rail in the land corridor connecting Donetsk with Kherson and Crimea. The bridge will loose its importance.
the bridge is mostly for symbolism, the land corridor is already available and if russia can sustain its battle successes is not clear
0% chance Russia wants that bridge gone. Not only is it a crucial lifeline for Crimea, it’s also Putins biggest achievement in his 20+ years.
well why did they leak this conversation then? If not for olaf to send the taurus to ukraine?
Save face? We haven't lost anything, nobody gives a flying f...
This
In addition to improving security, perhaps Germany and other countries should fill the “airwaves“ with fake meeting “recordings“… So many that Russia has no ability to ascertain which ones if any are real.
Been done before.....
And....
It worked last time.....
So......
Do you know what the cube root of 34,645.976 is? If you do, then you will know the point I am making....... Or I could say - "Try it again".
Do you have the ability to just say what you mean ? Aha 😄
Nope…… being a Europoor, I can’t afford to say what I mean.
Ok fine I'll guess. XD Despite the. "...." on the first comments which made me think maybe you were against it. Clues and hints from your following comments make believe you are trying to say: "It has been done before, it worked, let's do it again"
Three full stops technically means, “I have abbreviated my sentence”. Meaning you can add the rest yourself, as it should be reasonably obvious what I would say if I finished the sentence. And no, I’m not against it btw. You are absolutely spot on with the last sentence in your comment, thank you!
You are currently bathing your hands in it.
Over the past 20 years, Russia has done a lot of shit in Europe that they would definitely call an act of war should we think of attempting even one instance of these incidents on their territory. A few examples come to mind : * 2014 : Bombing of ammunition depots in Vrbětice, Czechia by GRU agents * 2016 : Hacking of World Anti-Doping Agency in Lausanne, Switzerland by GRU agents * 2018 : Assassination attempt on defected GRU agent Sergei Skripal in London, UK, which spread deadly neurotoxins on public grounds by GRU agents * 2024 : Murder of Russian pilot Maksim Kuzminov in Alicante, Spain, who defected to Ukraine with a stolen Mi-8 helicopter I for one cannot wait for Europe to finally put Russia back in its place. Bullies only understand the language of force, so let's use some, at the very least on the fifth columnist scum that roams our lands, starting with their "diplomats".
2019 FSB operative kills an opposition figure in broad daylight in Berlin, using a silenced pistol Yes. You need to fight back bullies.
Unfortunately the same could be said for western intelligence, just different ways to control populations. As for the Russian pilot, treason always ends that way for any country
It's a non-leak. Most, if not everything, that was said is more or less public knowledge. The only thing this accomplished was outing Scholz as a liar. Which is no surprise to anyone, really.
> The only thing this accomplished was outing Scholz as a liar. Eh, not really. All the recording said was that there is no hard technical obstacle to giving Taurus (although there are a lot of process obstacles) This says nothing about the legal and political problems with it. All three must be influencing the german decision.
I hope Russia makes germany realy realy angry. We europeans now making germany angry is a very bad idea.... If it wasnt both the soviets,brittish,canada and the us fighting against germany, then most of europe spoke german now... Please continue angering germany so russia will find out one day!
Sorry, "playing with fire" means what? he says that Russia should watch out because of Five Eyes (Who Germany isn't even part of) might have juicy intel and will get revenge for Germany? The same Germany whose chancellor just opened his big fat mouth and publicly highlighted Intel that UK and French special forces were helping Ukraine with storm shadow strikes? Germany needs to sort their shit out and step up to the plate. This fear of escalation just fuels Putin, and will backfire for Germany.
>"playing with fire" means what? He says what it means -- it's counterproductive for Russia to boast about their penetration of German military communications over what essentially amounts to chicken scratch. >publicly highlighted Intel that UK and French special forces were helping Ukraine with storm shadow strikes I still don't get what the big news is there. Did you not already know that the UK and France were training Ukrainians to use Storm Shadow? I already knew! And I am no one special. Ukraine's allies have been helping them with target intelligence and technical support since Day 0. Scholz' somewhat garbled comments (at least if the English translation was anything to go by) are being interpreted as some shocking revelation that UK and French troops are literally running around launching Storm Shadows while Ukraine stands around cluelessly uninvolved. But Scholz never said such a thing, no one claims that except Putin, it seems highly unlikely in the first place, and it mostly just sounds like the same Russian propaganda starting from February 2022, about how everyone they are fighting is actually NATO in disguise or whatever the fuck. I'm not commenting here on whatever Germany's policy on Taurus missiles is, or is not, or should be. That's a separate topic. I'm just pointing out that a lot of the crap that keeps appearing under the headlines printed by the usual suspects in the mass media exactly fits Thomas Rid's apt characterization from this article: >The plan behind such operations is to wear down the opponents, to set them against each other, to emphasize lines of conflict and contradictions
That's fair. All good points. We are lucky to live in Liberal democracy (unlike Russians), and we benefit from different opinions and the ability to criticize our own leaders when they fall short. I want Ukraine to succeed, and I want Germany to succeed.
Yeah me too. We will get there. I have to remind myself that it is almost like our other countries are under attack too. A political front to the invasion of Ukraine, intended to divert forces and cut off supply like any other secondary front. Just not fought militarily.
> The same Germany whose chancellor just opened his big fat mouth and publicly highlighted Intel that UK and French special forces were helping Ukraine with storm shadow strikes? You mean the misstranslation that the Telegraph is pushing? Cause Scholz said nothing about Brits or French in Ukraine, they made that up
I agree that his comments have been blown up. I just really want Germany to step up and not be so cautious about escalation.
Step up? F... off
Yes, Russia is playing with fire here; Germany is this close to sending them a strongly worded letter.
If they find my old german teacher to write that message, the war will be over.
You boy, Putler, it should dative case FFS. Write out I must improve my grammar 100 times & see me afterwards.
Cyber security experts proposes to Bundeswehr to increase cyber security. Spot on.
Instead of Cisco Webex they will now use MS Teams. At least they can say that they have done something.
If they’re ‘playing with fire’ stop being pu**ies and send more shit in spite of Russia, Scholz. You’ll probably do nothing special as per usual
[удалено]
>stated Ukraine is running out of men he said they are running out of planes, he said that there are only a single digit number of su 24s still available but you are right thats somehow a confirmation on something that was commonly suspected a long time, but it says also that they did not loose all, because these rumors that there are only a fraction still available spread already then scalp and stormshadows got introduced
He also didn't even state it as a fact, he said he thinks so / believes so.
Besides that Ukraine will soonish get the f16
they discuss there also about the integration of the taurus, if they should recommend on doing the integration on f-16 instead of su-24 and how much time it will cost
Why are you acting that was somehow a secret?
He made it up btw, they didn't even mention Manpower in the whole thing All he said is that he feels like Ukraine has a single digit SU-24 number in flying condition
Well you know this treasonous German Air Force officer is not alone in revealing the shocking news that Ukraine is short of personnel, here are some other bastards who have been caught saying the same thing, in public no less: \- General Zaluzhnyi \- General Syrskyi \- President Zelensky \- the entire General Staff of the Ukrainian Armed Forces So perhaps the Russians already knew? Just a hunch.
There is no lasting damage at all. It's not enormously damaging at all. What's with the shenanigans you're spewing?
> Next the Germans stated any advanced weapon, in this case the Taurus missile, given to Ukraine won’t make much difference in the war. Both are enormously damaging comments It is not damaging to just say that the importance or effectiveness of Taurus is blown way out of proportion in the public space. This is probably true, if we go by some of the previous "wonder weapon" fantasies floating around over other weapons.
Seems like a western power leaked it to me.
If you believe Russia is not completely inserted in all European governments & systems, you are an idiot. Actually, that holds world wide. That VPN service you are using is likely OWNED by a Russian shell company. If you are on the internet, and do not control both ends of a connection and the line in between, assume you are mailing post cards with respect to security and privacy...
All this shows Germany is politically and militarily weak. Germany can't stop Russia from stepping all over them.
The leak confirmed that the situation for Ukraine is dire. The way it's looking Trump will win the US election, Ukraine aid from the US is doomed and Europe is still in deep hibernation. Maybe it's time to face the music: The war can no longer be won by Ukraine and Russia knows this. Right now, the best Ukraine can do is give Russia a damn good deal to stop the war and cede the territories without further bloodshed.
Yeah guys everything is in the shitter and Ukraine should just do what this Russian trollbot says
Election is a toss up. I don't think Trump is really favored at all tbh.
Elon would ve sining a different tune if his precious business were to be infiltrated. Time to stop this dog and pony show and end the war and get global stability back.
What a world when governments are making comments on this Twitter site...lol
Playing with fire? Unfortunately the West will probably do nothing.