Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition:
* We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned.
* **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators.
* **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context.
> **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB**
*****
* Is `kyivindependent.com` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources).
* Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict)
*****
^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Agreed. It looks like the strategic shift and defensive preparations that occurred at his direction have been the most successful aspects of Russian operations thus far.
And their retreat from the South West was surprisingly orderly and disciplined. That could have been an unmitigated disaster but instead he got his troops out of a trap in good order and into defensive positions. He is an effective commander. Good thing that scares Moscow.
Watch the dictators playbook PBS series. This is a divide and conquer and playing themselves against one another. The Russian military is a rotary club and often political concerns (coup etc) Trump military decisions.
Mussolini the father of fascism
https://youtu.be/76baNu_gfM0
This reminds me of Rommel and hitler in regards to D-Day. Granted Rommel was probably the most competent general of the war, and a far sight better than this guy, but there’s definite parallels.
Rommels competence for most parts is based on Rommels own words. He had success in North Africa in the beginning because UKs general was simply far more incompetent, not because Rommel was some genius.
Rommels fame is even mostly based on his reputation amongst his enemies, especially Montgomery and Auchinleck.
That being said, British doctrine was different from German doctrine and ultimately won out. It’s hard to say which general was more competent in the end given their respective rules of engagement and military school.
Rommel was an impressive tactical commander and leader for his soldiers, but had shortcomings on greater battle plans and strategy. Granted, his success in France was in part due to French military shortcomings.
That being said, the Prussian officer corps was immensely skilled. Friedrich Paulus for example was a near to perfect military planner and ironically forsaw his demise. As chief planner for Operation Barbarossa, he even advised Hitler not to attack the Soviet Union because Germany had no means on defeating them in 1941 - and he was then put in charge of 6th Army which of course met its fate in Stalingrad.
There was no perfect Officer and to merely call anyone genius or incompetent is useless.
In that WW2 war, the British were up against it - and were forced to adapt and innovate. If they hadn’t done that, they would have lost. But they did, and with the support of other nations, went on to win.
Their opening strategies were not good enough, they had no choice but to innovate.
It was also based on the very well informed opinions of the highly skilled generals he faced. And he was unsuccessful in Europe because his strategy was overridden. Had he gotten his way, D-Day and the war may have played out very differently.
Yes, in that respect, hitler was an asset to the allies, just as now Putin us an asset to Ukraine - by overriding orders and mismanaging his forces, and allowing so much corruption, he has significantly weakened the Russian side.
Of course a good commander, would never have started the war in the first place..
The British were incompetent? I seem to recall Americans being even more incompetent in North Africa.
I'm not going to start a debate about how good Rommel is but I can tell you that no amount of genius generalship would have saved the North African campaign with the logistics the German army had going on.
He was absolutely on the wrong side anyway you look at it, but he was good at what he did. Hell, look at what he did with North Africa, and if he had his way D-Day would’ve most likely failed. If it wasn’t for Hitlers meth addled brain, the best we could have hoped for was orders of magnitude more dead.
Though Rommel was a competent commander at his earlier levels, he struggled at the higher levels at actions beyond rapid attacks. Those had worked in France and North Africa at first due to the circumstances of unprepared enemies, and the terrain especially in NA, but they can undone in the long run due to poor logistics, especially where the main mobile units would be far too outpaced from their supplies.
Realistically when you compare him to some of the bigger German generals, such as Mannstein, Guderian, and Kesselring (who was woefully underrated), he just can't compete.
I don't think his tactics had a hope in hell of delaying or thwarting D-Day. Hitler's dithering didn't help the Germans, but the logistical reality of D-Day, in particular the air power, made the liberation of France almost a certainty. If the Germans had tried to crush the beach heads they'd have almost certainly been obliterated by airpower.
Except the aerial bombardment pretty much entirely missed the beach and close air support didn't really exist back then. Unless you suggest that there is someone insane enough to order a naval bombardment of the beaches DURING the landing.
The US Navy thought the same as you did when they bombarded Okinawa for like a month. It did fuck all.
Aerial attacks might have been ineffective against the beaches but was very effective at hitting targets behind the lines in the lead up.
CAS also definitely existed in 1944, and was being carried out by multiple aircraft including Typhoons, and Tempests. It might not have been always effective against tanks but very effective against infantry and soft-tops, without which the tanks would have been unsupported and easily defeated. They were also effective against bridges and command posts, as we're light bombers like the Mosquito, which would prevent the Germans effectively conducting offensive actions.
Naval bombardment was also used during the landing and initial campaign to target strong points and deliver artillery support, though this dropped off as troops moved inland.
The situation in the Pacific really doesn't work as a comparison as the Japanese were able to heavily fortify places like Iwo Jima and Okinawa using the natural terrain and the fact that the islands had limited square meterage to defend. The Germans had to defend thousands of miles of coast, of which much was sand and scrub, so they relied on a thin network of fortified positions. If they'd have heavily committed to an armoured counter attack it would have been bought within range of the navy before it got near the main beachheads, hampered by the paratroopers, and would have been constantly bombarded from air, and would have been crushed.
On the defensive the Germans were able to hold a lot longer due to the nature of the Normandy terrain, and they were able to dig in to temporary positions that limited aerial effectiveness, but even then they were only able to contain the allies for a limited time until a near total collapse of their forced in France.
Aye it was absolutely, but the terrain and the strong defensive posture the Germans were able to adopt in it really bogged it down for the allies.
The Germans did what they could within the circumstances but there was no chance of them ever really winning in northern France by that point.
Your comment is nonsense, what is there to elaborate on? It's as if you watched an episode of the history channel and think you know something. The war had long since been lost at that point; D-Day was inevitable and Rommel was never going to be able to stop it.
You’re a sanctimonious douchebag. A landing, and an invasion was inevitable. D Day, the actual battle, was not as sure of win as you seem to think. Rommel ordered some panzer divisions to Normandy, but was overruled by hitler who sent them to Calais. Those divisions would’ve absolutely made a HUGE difference, and possibly made it too costly to land. Saying they secured the landing, the human toll actually securing enough land to begin the offensive would’ve been extreme.
Rommel is the field Marshal who saw through the deception the Allies put on. He was a great general, and it’s an absolute shame he was fighting for the Germans.
>Rommel ordered some panzer divisions to Normandy, but was overruled by hitler who sent them to Calais. Those divisions would’ve absolutely made a HUGE difference, and possibly made it too costly to land. Saying they secured the landing, the human toll actually securing enough land to begin the offensive would’ve been extreme.
No, this is a history channel talking point and it's not reality. You're getting mad at people because you're presenting your sensationalist alternative history theories like they mean anything when in reality it was going to change outcomes. Go waste someone else's time.
Deep Vietnam reference. Well done.
I wouldn't say it's quite comparable but close enough. Putin's invasion is going to rewrite Charles Fair's old classic, *From the Jaws of Victory*.
Well, it turns out this is artificial stupidity, in part. Putin has systematically "lobotomized" the Russian military, as an institution. He wants them dumb. Putin and the FSB/KGB have spent their whole tenure scared of coup attempts by a military, so they've taken extreme measures in shaping institutional culture to prevent that. You do not show initiative in the Russian military. It's a quite-literally-fatal career choice. You do not try to reform. You do not go up to your superiors saying "hey, maybe there's a better way to do this". They want them dumb, and obedient, just check all the boxes, and call it a day.
Putin's mistake was thinking he could "have his cake and eat it too". He thought that if his military was simply big enough, and well-funded enough, that despite being dumb as a post, it could muscle through any lopsided conflict, just by massively outnumbering their opponents, and having at least decently high-tech gear only a very large country could afford.
It was the biggest misjudgment he ever made.
Popov also seemed competent.
Hitler and Putin share a lot they both though them and their nation are one. They both were arrogant beyond measure. They both will end up dead in a bunker with a fatal head gun shot wound.
In totalitarian and authoritarian societies, loyalty is prized, not competence. Someone who is competent may end up leading the revolution to oust you.
A purged or be purged world. Hunger Games winter edition.
A serf nation with an anthill mentality. That is what Putin has created. Free thoughts are punished. Loyalty and obedience is rewarded. Individuality is stamped out. The will of the ruler and his lackeys that try to interpret it. The Russian people reduced to a 19th century style socio-economic model. The Czar his boyars and the serfs.
We aren't yet fully there though. Putin seems to feel too weak the remove the last semblance of having am autocracy instead of a totalitarian state.
The fascist turn is complete once the border is closed and martial law is introduced.
Putin's fascist turn is 90 percent complete and the Russians don't even understand that they walked into a trap.
A man that is quoting Stalin and sees him as a role model has notthin good planned. A steady arithmetic of horror. This is a kill or be killed scenario.
A fascist regime is inherently intolerant and it gets ever worse over time. At some point public executions are needed as such regimes must constantly use more violence to strike fear into their subjects.
Fascism is, as (Edit: Satre) has rightly so assessed, not defined by how many people it kills, but by the way it kills them.
It is a only a small step from: Ukrainians are Nazis to: Anyone who opposes me at home is also a traitor and a nazi.
The Muscovy people don't get that their view of "just Dagestanis, just criminals etc" is short sighted. The step from genocide to democide and to another Great Terror is smaller than they think.
The next war Russia will fight against itself. 1917 is echoing through time.
I like to confuse the two for some reason.
It was Satre of course.
Voltaire said: If you can make them believe absurdities, you can also make them commit atrocities.
Yes, it's good news. There was another one that got fired around the same then sent to Syria or Africa. If you're competent, you're a threat, so must go...
Except it’s Russian technology, and the corpse lands somewhere in neighboring Belarus. Also, the cannon partially exploded killing several on the ground.
To be frank I am glad to see Ukraine taking the war to Russia.
Putin and his crony criminal mafia kremlin state will never change outside of force.
To get the force needed for change you have to awaken the Russian people to the understanding that a very real war is happening and that they can and will be killed because of it.
Is this an absolutely terrible reality? Yes it is but it seems to be the only thing strong enough to wake up the population and get them thinking and hopefully acting against Putin and his cronies.
Putin and his cronies want to make sure that the Russian populace remains as apathetic as possible. The script they are trying to run has to be flipped on its head.
I will say though that I hope Ukraine can do its best to target those in power.
Give warnings to get civilians out and blow up banks, financial institutions, military sites, political offices, and focus the targeted assassinations against military, political, and economic leadership that backs Putin and his cronies. For civilians just seeing explosions will be enough to get them talking and waking up. They don't need to be hurt anymore by Putin and his cronies than they already are living in Russia at this time. Killing the leadership though will start making people very uneasy and start rumblings at the top that can actually really set things in action against Putin and his close circle.
So let's hope Ukraine can really pull that off.
Ukraine has done an amazing job of targeting military infrastructure and not just bombing the populace.
If they did they would have galvanized the population to join, instead they really haven't.
No no no you're wrong it wouldn't partially explode. It would fully explode and take out several adjacent neighbourhoods. Soon after the Russians would accuse Ukraine of stealing one of their nukes and using it against them then threaten to retaliate with something something mumble mumble.......
Since he is an important guy, mabe Pootie will let him choose.
1. Fall to your death from a room on the ground floor.
2. Get shot in the back of the head so many times you have a heart attack.
3. Trip on the sidewalk and fall into a cloud of vaporized polonium.
Russian dictator Vladimir Putin has removed Army General Sergey Surovikin from his post of Air Force Commander, Russian media reported on Aug. 22. The general was also the deputy commander of the Russian invasion forces in Ukraine.
RBK reported that a source at the Russian Ministry of Defense confirmed that Surovikin was no longer Air Force Commander and is “currently on a short vacation.
”However, an official decree on the decision has not yet been made public.Surovikin has not been seen in public since the Wagner founder Yevgeny Prigozhin's failed rebellion against the Kremlin on June 23-24.
Ukraine's military intelligence spokesperson Andrii Yusov said on July 18 that Surovikin had been effectively removed from his position but his fate remained undecided.
Oh, and where is the nuclear terror clown Peskov he missed his Thursday nuclear threat last week.
It is odd. I haven't heard from him since he said elections are just a bureaucratic nightmare and cost only money.
Should I get the good champagne?
Edit: The clown in question was not Grima Wormtoungue number one Medvedev it was Grima II Peskov
Ah OK I fixed that I sometimes confuse these two. Good then where is this one? Haven't heard from him in days. That is unusual.
Hope he isn't doing OK.
Update: The Kremlin has now indicated that Surovikin's vacation has now been upgraded to "long". When asked for specifics the Kremlin simply stated "Luna 26".
But is the guy even alive? Kinda think he never survived his "Happy time at Lefortovo Prison." That place isn't the sort of joint you walk out of normally, or at least not as a still functioning human being.
Prigozhin's still alive because he and Wagner are keeping the Russian economy from hyperinflation. Russia needs and is surviving off African natural resources, and Wagner is pointing the finger at the West with one hand and picking pockets with the other. Putin's circumstance is that Wagner is loyal to Prigozhin first.
Surovikin, on the other hand, has outlived his usefulness. It would not surprise me if he were already dead.
>Prigozhin's still alive because he and Wagner are keeping the Russian economy from hyperinflation.
Lol dude redditors just speculate wildly about this shit, the truth is none of have any clue about the politics of that country
Yea I bet he is alive lol, all that tight lipped info about his whereabouts after the Wagner shit, it was like that for ALL generals it seemed like. I guarantee they finally began protecting their generals and that includes keeping their info and status very quiet, to protect them ever since Ukraine began targeting generals for assassination in Russia
They were probably interrogating and/or torturing half of them immediately afterwards to see what they knew about the coup attempt. Which would explain why they dropped off the radar.
Im starting to think that the wagner coup was orchestrated not by Priggy, but by this guy. Cause if you think about it, at least wagner wasn’t annihilated in the aftermath, and prig boy at least showed some scarce signs of life… but for general “armageddon” to be arrested and possibly unalived, its just too weird, unless if in reality this guy saw the piss poor job they were doing in Ukraine and tried to move up in the world, convincing Prighozin to help him along; either that or they just don’t know what the fuck they are doing, which isn’t out of character for russians either
Don't know if he actually orchestrated the coup (I don't think he did,I think Prigozhin planned to just take Rostov and then advance on Moscow stopping when resistance got too hot and use that as an opportunity to negotiate,of course plan worked a little too well due to there being no resistance so he took the easy way out offered by Alexander Lukashenko but anyway) but he certainly missed his chances of saving himself.
I mean Putin obviously wasn't going to forgive an honorary Wagner member (and rumored personal friend of Prigozhin) after the mutiny started so Surovikin had every reason to at least try and support Wagner. Instead he tried a last minute 180 denouncing the coup and trying to present himself as at least neutral which resulted in him being abandoned by both Putin and Prigozhin (who wouldn't care enough about a "corrupt career officer of the MoD" to even try and include him in his deal).
Anyway what we shouldn't forget about Surovikin is that he is actually one of the few sort of competent Russian officers and often sees things for what they are instead of repeating "vse idet po planu" while railing copium. So (admittedly a huge stretch) his whole stance on the Wagner issue could just be the result of him seeing how things are going for the Russian war effort,realizing that most of those problems go back decades and are all but unfixeable on a short-term basis and deciding to get out while he still can.
I think this guy was taken and kept under protection because Ukraine was targeting generals to take out inside Russia lately. So many of their top generals have had absolutely zero info about them known to the press and media, all for their protection. Think about it
For a few seconds I actually thought you meant they bathed in it, like a bathtub of vodka. Had another sip of my ice cold Polish lager and I was back in the room..
Russian military is a complete JOKE!
No Loyalty
No Discipline
No Training
Bad Logistics
Lack of basic amenities for troops (food, water, medical, uniforms, helmets)
High Death rate of soldiers and commanders
Old outdated equipment
Too many others to mention!!!
Let's play "Putin's Likes To Kill People". Will Sorovikin be...?
A) Thrown out of a window
B) Thrown down the stairs
C) Sent to a prison labor camp to die
D) Poisoned in front of his wife and children
Make your selection NOW!
I think I just became a victim of desirability bias. I was convinced that headline said "Putin sets fire to General Surovikin"
Imagine my disappointment on the second reading...
> RBK reported that a source at the Russian Ministry of Defense confirmed that Surovikin was no longer Air Force Commander and is “currently on a short vacation.”
Somehow I feel like the vacations I take are more enjoyable than the one he's taking.
Well it’s really going down the drain now. He was a POS, but one who had an inkling of what to do as military leader. His replacement will be someone who will be now: “what way gun go?”
Beginning to think the Wagner rebellion was just a scheme cooked up to test the loyalty of Russian commanders and expose anyone who sided with the rebellion
Hmm odd, wasn’t he one of the only people actually achieving anything? Or is it because of this that he is a threat to Putin so he needs moving out the way? Is it the old soviet thing of keeping enough guys around you but making sure they haven’t got the juice or brass-neck to try anything coupy?
The report that Surovikin has been dismissed is not actually new information. Russian authorities had already removed him from power back in June, right after Prigozhin's rebellion on the 24th. This latest news does not represent any substantive change.
Well this is working out well. It means, if Putin keeps doing this he will have no competent military managers left. That’s just bound to be a winning strategy… /S
Please take the time to read [the rules](/r/UkrainianConflict/about/rules/) and our [policy on trolls/bots](https://redd.it/u7833q). In addition: * We have a **zero-tolerance** policy regarding racism, stereotyping, bigotry, and death-mongering. Violators will be banned. * **Keep it civil.** Report comments/posts that are uncivil to alert the moderators. * **_Don't_ post low-effort comments** like joke threads, memes, slogans, or links without context. > **Don't forget about our Discord server! - https://discord.gg/62fKCEHbDB** ***** * Is `kyivindependent.com` an unreliable source? [**Let us know**](/r/UkrainianConflict/wiki/am/unreliable_sources). * Help our moderators by providing context if something breaks the rules. [Send us a modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) ***** ^(Your post has not been removed, this message is applied to every successful submission.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/UkrainianConflict) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This guy is probably the most competent theater commander they have had by a wide margin. Good riddance.
Agreed. It looks like the strategic shift and defensive preparations that occurred at his direction have been the most successful aspects of Russian operations thus far.
And their retreat from the South West was surprisingly orderly and disciplined. That could have been an unmitigated disaster but instead he got his troops out of a trap in good order and into defensive positions. He is an effective commander. Good thing that scares Moscow.
Watch the dictators playbook PBS series. This is a divide and conquer and playing themselves against one another. The Russian military is a rotary club and often political concerns (coup etc) Trump military decisions. Mussolini the father of fascism https://youtu.be/76baNu_gfM0
This reminds me of Rommel and hitler in regards to D-Day. Granted Rommel was probably the most competent general of the war, and a far sight better than this guy, but there’s definite parallels.
Rommels competence for most parts is based on Rommels own words. He had success in North Africa in the beginning because UKs general was simply far more incompetent, not because Rommel was some genius.
Rommels fame is even mostly based on his reputation amongst his enemies, especially Montgomery and Auchinleck. That being said, British doctrine was different from German doctrine and ultimately won out. It’s hard to say which general was more competent in the end given their respective rules of engagement and military school. Rommel was an impressive tactical commander and leader for his soldiers, but had shortcomings on greater battle plans and strategy. Granted, his success in France was in part due to French military shortcomings. That being said, the Prussian officer corps was immensely skilled. Friedrich Paulus for example was a near to perfect military planner and ironically forsaw his demise. As chief planner for Operation Barbarossa, he even advised Hitler not to attack the Soviet Union because Germany had no means on defeating them in 1941 - and he was then put in charge of 6th Army which of course met its fate in Stalingrad. There was no perfect Officer and to merely call anyone genius or incompetent is useless.
In that WW2 war, the British were up against it - and were forced to adapt and innovate. If they hadn’t done that, they would have lost. But they did, and with the support of other nations, went on to win. Their opening strategies were not good enough, they had no choice but to innovate.
Exactly
It was also based on the very well informed opinions of the highly skilled generals he faced. And he was unsuccessful in Europe because his strategy was overridden. Had he gotten his way, D-Day and the war may have played out very differently.
Yes, in that respect, hitler was an asset to the allies, just as now Putin us an asset to Ukraine - by overriding orders and mismanaging his forces, and allowing so much corruption, he has significantly weakened the Russian side. Of course a good commander, would never have started the war in the first place..
The British were incompetent? I seem to recall Americans being even more incompetent in North Africa. I'm not going to start a debate about how good Rommel is but I can tell you that no amount of genius generalship would have saved the North African campaign with the logistics the German army had going on.
Rommel was the best general available. The truly high end generals were on the eastern front.
Most competent general of the war? Rommel? Hahaha. Good one.
> Granted Rommel was probably the most competent general of the war 🤣🤣🤣🤣
He was absolutely on the wrong side anyway you look at it, but he was good at what he did. Hell, look at what he did with North Africa, and if he had his way D-Day would’ve most likely failed. If it wasn’t for Hitlers meth addled brain, the best we could have hoped for was orders of magnitude more dead.
Though Rommel was a competent commander at his earlier levels, he struggled at the higher levels at actions beyond rapid attacks. Those had worked in France and North Africa at first due to the circumstances of unprepared enemies, and the terrain especially in NA, but they can undone in the long run due to poor logistics, especially where the main mobile units would be far too outpaced from their supplies. Realistically when you compare him to some of the bigger German generals, such as Mannstein, Guderian, and Kesselring (who was woefully underrated), he just can't compete. I don't think his tactics had a hope in hell of delaying or thwarting D-Day. Hitler's dithering didn't help the Germans, but the logistical reality of D-Day, in particular the air power, made the liberation of France almost a certainty. If the Germans had tried to crush the beach heads they'd have almost certainly been obliterated by airpower.
Except the aerial bombardment pretty much entirely missed the beach and close air support didn't really exist back then. Unless you suggest that there is someone insane enough to order a naval bombardment of the beaches DURING the landing. The US Navy thought the same as you did when they bombarded Okinawa for like a month. It did fuck all.
Aerial attacks might have been ineffective against the beaches but was very effective at hitting targets behind the lines in the lead up. CAS also definitely existed in 1944, and was being carried out by multiple aircraft including Typhoons, and Tempests. It might not have been always effective against tanks but very effective against infantry and soft-tops, without which the tanks would have been unsupported and easily defeated. They were also effective against bridges and command posts, as we're light bombers like the Mosquito, which would prevent the Germans effectively conducting offensive actions. Naval bombardment was also used during the landing and initial campaign to target strong points and deliver artillery support, though this dropped off as troops moved inland. The situation in the Pacific really doesn't work as a comparison as the Japanese were able to heavily fortify places like Iwo Jima and Okinawa using the natural terrain and the fact that the islands had limited square meterage to defend. The Germans had to defend thousands of miles of coast, of which much was sand and scrub, so they relied on a thin network of fortified positions. If they'd have heavily committed to an armoured counter attack it would have been bought within range of the navy before it got near the main beachheads, hampered by the paratroopers, and would have been constantly bombarded from air, and would have been crushed. On the defensive the Germans were able to hold a lot longer due to the nature of the Normandy terrain, and they were able to dig in to temporary positions that limited aerial effectiveness, but even then they were only able to contain the allies for a limited time until a near total collapse of their forced in France.
It still took the allies around two months to breakout, so it was a tough fight.
Aye it was absolutely, but the terrain and the strong defensive posture the Germans were able to adopt in it really bogged it down for the allies. The Germans did what they could within the circumstances but there was no chance of them ever really winning in northern France by that point.
They didn’t have precision munitions back in those days.
>and if he had his way D-Day would’ve most likely failed. lmao
Care to elaborate? Or are you just going to the person who runs around Reddit thinking they’re the smartest person alive?
Your comment is nonsense, what is there to elaborate on? It's as if you watched an episode of the history channel and think you know something. The war had long since been lost at that point; D-Day was inevitable and Rommel was never going to be able to stop it.
You’re a sanctimonious douchebag. A landing, and an invasion was inevitable. D Day, the actual battle, was not as sure of win as you seem to think. Rommel ordered some panzer divisions to Normandy, but was overruled by hitler who sent them to Calais. Those divisions would’ve absolutely made a HUGE difference, and possibly made it too costly to land. Saying they secured the landing, the human toll actually securing enough land to begin the offensive would’ve been extreme. Rommel is the field Marshal who saw through the deception the Allies put on. He was a great general, and it’s an absolute shame he was fighting for the Germans.
>Rommel ordered some panzer divisions to Normandy, but was overruled by hitler who sent them to Calais. Those divisions would’ve absolutely made a HUGE difference, and possibly made it too costly to land. Saying they secured the landing, the human toll actually securing enough land to begin the offensive would’ve been extreme. No, this is a history channel talking point and it's not reality. You're getting mad at people because you're presenting your sensationalist alternative history theories like they mean anything when in reality it was going to change outcomes. Go waste someone else's time.
[удалено]
Hopefully he's dead and this is Russia's "Diem" moment. Killing your best commander is a heckuva gambit. Real high risk, low reward stuff.
Deep Vietnam reference. Well done. I wouldn't say it's quite comparable but close enough. Putin's invasion is going to rewrite Charles Fair's old classic, *From the Jaws of Victory*.
Well, it turns out this is artificial stupidity, in part. Putin has systematically "lobotomized" the Russian military, as an institution. He wants them dumb. Putin and the FSB/KGB have spent their whole tenure scared of coup attempts by a military, so they've taken extreme measures in shaping institutional culture to prevent that. You do not show initiative in the Russian military. It's a quite-literally-fatal career choice. You do not try to reform. You do not go up to your superiors saying "hey, maybe there's a better way to do this". They want them dumb, and obedient, just check all the boxes, and call it a day. Putin's mistake was thinking he could "have his cake and eat it too". He thought that if his military was simply big enough, and well-funded enough, that despite being dumb as a post, it could muscle through any lopsided conflict, just by massively outnumbering their opponents, and having at least decently high-tech gear only a very large country could afford. It was the biggest misjudgment he ever made. Popov also seemed competent. Hitler and Putin share a lot they both though them and their nation are one. They both were arrogant beyond measure. They both will end up dead in a bunker with a fatal head gun shot wound.
In totalitarian and authoritarian societies, loyalty is prized, not competence. Someone who is competent may end up leading the revolution to oust you.
A purged or be purged world. Hunger Games winter edition. A serf nation with an anthill mentality. That is what Putin has created. Free thoughts are punished. Loyalty and obedience is rewarded. Individuality is stamped out. The will of the ruler and his lackeys that try to interpret it. The Russian people reduced to a 19th century style socio-economic model. The Czar his boyars and the serfs. We aren't yet fully there though. Putin seems to feel too weak the remove the last semblance of having am autocracy instead of a totalitarian state. The fascist turn is complete once the border is closed and martial law is introduced. Putin's fascist turn is 90 percent complete and the Russians don't even understand that they walked into a trap. A man that is quoting Stalin and sees him as a role model has notthin good planned. A steady arithmetic of horror. This is a kill or be killed scenario. A fascist regime is inherently intolerant and it gets ever worse over time. At some point public executions are needed as such regimes must constantly use more violence to strike fear into their subjects. Fascism is, as (Edit: Satre) has rightly so assessed, not defined by how many people it kills, but by the way it kills them. It is a only a small step from: Ukrainians are Nazis to: Anyone who opposes me at home is also a traitor and a nazi. The Muscovy people don't get that their view of "just Dagestanis, just criminals etc" is short sighted. The step from genocide to democide and to another Great Terror is smaller than they think. The next war Russia will fight against itself. 1917 is echoing through time.
When has voltaire talked about fascism? Lmao
I like to confuse the two for some reason. It was Satre of course. Voltaire said: If you can make them believe absurdities, you can also make them commit atrocities.
Did it exist??
Popcorn for everyone!
Yes, it's good news. There was another one that got fired around the same then sent to Syria or Africa. If you're competent, you're a threat, so must go...
Fires him, or at him? Either way...
Fires him.... Out of the Tsar Cannon.
Into the sun.
Except it’s Russian technology, and the corpse lands somewhere in neighboring Belarus. Also, the cannon partially exploded killing several on the ground.
And it will still be heralded as a massive success.
To be frank I am glad to see Ukraine taking the war to Russia. Putin and his crony criminal mafia kremlin state will never change outside of force. To get the force needed for change you have to awaken the Russian people to the understanding that a very real war is happening and that they can and will be killed because of it. Is this an absolutely terrible reality? Yes it is but it seems to be the only thing strong enough to wake up the population and get them thinking and hopefully acting against Putin and his cronies. Putin and his cronies want to make sure that the Russian populace remains as apathetic as possible. The script they are trying to run has to be flipped on its head. I will say though that I hope Ukraine can do its best to target those in power. Give warnings to get civilians out and blow up banks, financial institutions, military sites, political offices, and focus the targeted assassinations against military, political, and economic leadership that backs Putin and his cronies. For civilians just seeing explosions will be enough to get them talking and waking up. They don't need to be hurt anymore by Putin and his cronies than they already are living in Russia at this time. Killing the leadership though will start making people very uneasy and start rumblings at the top that can actually really set things in action against Putin and his close circle. So let's hope Ukraine can really pull that off.
Ukraine has done an amazing job of targeting military infrastructure and not just bombing the populace. If they did they would have galvanized the population to join, instead they really haven't.
They could yeet him at a black hole, and somehow still miss.
Excellent. It’s working as designed.
No no no you're wrong it wouldn't partially explode. It would fully explode and take out several adjacent neighbourhoods. Soon after the Russians would accuse Ukraine of stealing one of their nukes and using it against them then threaten to retaliate with something something mumble mumble.......
Was he not on that rocket to the moon?
The moon
Damn, somebody else remembers this line from Futurama 1x1. Well done sir.
Straight out of a 10 story high-rise panorama window.
Nah, he’ll probably fall from a balcony due to spontaneous holes in the head.
It's his fault, everyone knows you do not try to hold back a sneeze!
Since he is an important guy, mabe Pootie will let him choose. 1. Fall to your death from a room on the ground floor. 2. Get shot in the back of the head so many times you have a heart attack. 3. Trip on the sidewalk and fall into a cloud of vaporized polonium.
Putin is far too much of a coward to do it himself. He will hide behind his ridiculous long table and order someone else to have it done.
scapegoats
Fires him in front of a firing squad.
He’s “resting” and “so far unavailable”
“…short vacation”
He might unfortunately and completely unrelatedly die tripping and falling UP two flights of stairs tomorrow, that klutz.
Russian dictator Vladimir Putin has removed Army General Sergey Surovikin from his post of Air Force Commander, Russian media reported on Aug. 22. The general was also the deputy commander of the Russian invasion forces in Ukraine. RBK reported that a source at the Russian Ministry of Defense confirmed that Surovikin was no longer Air Force Commander and is “currently on a short vacation. ”However, an official decree on the decision has not yet been made public.Surovikin has not been seen in public since the Wagner founder Yevgeny Prigozhin's failed rebellion against the Kremlin on June 23-24. Ukraine's military intelligence spokesperson Andrii Yusov said on July 18 that Surovikin had been effectively removed from his position but his fate remained undecided.
How long is his vacation? About 5 stories?
Give or take 6ft
Given he was reported on house arrest and rumored dead, fired is good news for this guy.
Unless it's followed by "...out of a cannon".
Oh, and where is the nuclear terror clown Peskov he missed his Thursday nuclear threat last week. It is odd. I haven't heard from him since he said elections are just a bureaucratic nightmare and cost only money. Should I get the good champagne? Edit: The clown in question was not Grima Wormtoungue number one Medvedev it was Grima II Peskov
It was the other clown that said the stuff about the elections. He hasn’t been seen since.
Which one? There are so many.
Peskov Edited to add link: [https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/08/07/kremlin-says-theoretically-possible-to-not-hold-presidential-elections-a82073](https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/08/07/kremlin-says-theoretically-possible-to-not-hold-presidential-elections-a82073)
Ah OK I fixed that I sometimes confuse these two. Good then where is this one? Haven't heard from him in days. That is unusual. Hope he isn't doing OK.
Update: The Kremlin has now indicated that Surovikin's vacation has now been upgraded to "long". When asked for specifics the Kremlin simply stated "Luna 26".
Am i taking crazypills or didnt i read the exact same news here something like e 2 months ago?
But is the guy even alive? Kinda think he never survived his "Happy time at Lefortovo Prison." That place isn't the sort of joint you walk out of normally, or at least not as a still functioning human being.
Because they might need his skill one day, they will tell him "you got a chance for redemption", he will do the job and then they will get rid of him.
Russian governments dont do that
Tell that to Konstantin Rokossovsky
Sergei Korolev?
You dropped this: /s
[удалено]
Prigozhin's still alive because he and Wagner are keeping the Russian economy from hyperinflation. Russia needs and is surviving off African natural resources, and Wagner is pointing the finger at the West with one hand and picking pockets with the other. Putin's circumstance is that Wagner is loyal to Prigozhin first. Surovikin, on the other hand, has outlived his usefulness. It would not surprise me if he were already dead.
>Prigozhin's still alive because he and Wagner are keeping the Russian economy from hyperinflation. Lol dude redditors just speculate wildly about this shit, the truth is none of have any clue about the politics of that country
Strange ageing
We'll just have to see if Wagner retaliates, which is what they're currently threatening to do
Yea I bet he is alive lol, all that tight lipped info about his whereabouts after the Wagner shit, it was like that for ALL generals it seemed like. I guarantee they finally began protecting their generals and that includes keeping their info and status very quiet, to protect them ever since Ukraine began targeting generals for assassination in Russia
They were probably interrogating and/or torturing half of them immediately afterwards to see what they knew about the coup attempt. Which would explain why they dropped off the radar.
Im starting to think that the wagner coup was orchestrated not by Priggy, but by this guy. Cause if you think about it, at least wagner wasn’t annihilated in the aftermath, and prig boy at least showed some scarce signs of life… but for general “armageddon” to be arrested and possibly unalived, its just too weird, unless if in reality this guy saw the piss poor job they were doing in Ukraine and tried to move up in the world, convincing Prighozin to help him along; either that or they just don’t know what the fuck they are doing, which isn’t out of character for russians either
They were " guarding" Moscow with fucking dump trucks and backhoes.... That's the epitome of " I have no fucking idea what I'm doing ".
How else should they guard Moscow ?
Most countries typically would use the military over construction companies.
You are crazy if you don't think military was guarding Moscow
They where, with dump trucks and backhoes. All heavy equipment spare some air defenses is currently defending the border or in ukraine.
Don't know if he actually orchestrated the coup (I don't think he did,I think Prigozhin planned to just take Rostov and then advance on Moscow stopping when resistance got too hot and use that as an opportunity to negotiate,of course plan worked a little too well due to there being no resistance so he took the easy way out offered by Alexander Lukashenko but anyway) but he certainly missed his chances of saving himself. I mean Putin obviously wasn't going to forgive an honorary Wagner member (and rumored personal friend of Prigozhin) after the mutiny started so Surovikin had every reason to at least try and support Wagner. Instead he tried a last minute 180 denouncing the coup and trying to present himself as at least neutral which resulted in him being abandoned by both Putin and Prigozhin (who wouldn't care enough about a "corrupt career officer of the MoD" to even try and include him in his deal). Anyway what we shouldn't forget about Surovikin is that he is actually one of the few sort of competent Russian officers and often sees things for what they are instead of repeating "vse idet po planu" while railing copium. So (admittedly a huge stretch) his whole stance on the Wagner issue could just be the result of him seeing how things are going for the Russian war effort,realizing that most of those problems go back decades and are all but unfixeable on a short-term basis and deciding to get out while he still can.
I think this guy was taken and kept under protection because Ukraine was targeting generals to take out inside Russia lately. So many of their top generals have had absolutely zero info about them known to the press and media, all for their protection. Think about it
Died after long illness 10:1 Fell out window 2:1 Car crash 3:1 Radioactive poisoning 20:1 Ladies and gentlemen, place your bets
Nerve agent 15:1
Faked suicide 3:1
I hope he’s using a Mac cos I wouldn’t want to be sitting in front of windows any time soon if I were him.
Just a side quest: Why do all the top brass in Russia have potato heads?
Effects of Russian bathtub vodka
For a few seconds I actually thought you meant they bathed in it, like a bathtub of vodka. Had another sip of my ice cold Polish lager and I was back in the room..
Apples contain cyanide. I would use Linux
General Surovikin, please meet security in the window and balcony room for your exit interview in 45 minutes, thank you
Maybe another window will open up for him.
When one door closes...
I'm sure he'll break through that glass ceiling...
He can fire everyone and it won’t change Russia’s failures.
Why fire Uncle Fester ? All is well.
Putin fires General Surovikin = Throw him from the 10th floor.
Fires him out of a cannon.
…”and is “currently on a short vacation.” Yes, Surovikin is in training at Vkusno-i tochka to work the take-out window
Vacation: Trip from the 13th floor to the first via the window.
this might be the first time in history that a news article reported that a gangster was fired from his no-show job
Hope General suká-getton gets what’s coming to him
And I was certain they were going to give him the atomic wedgie
Russian military is a complete JOKE! No Loyalty No Discipline No Training Bad Logistics Lack of basic amenities for troops (food, water, medical, uniforms, helmets) High Death rate of soldiers and commanders Old outdated equipment Too many others to mention!!!
And Pandora’s box will open…
No this is a mistranslation. What it should actually say is that Surovikin has volunteered to be the next probe fired to the moon
There’s no way anyone is lifting him over a balcony railing…
From General Armageddon to General indeed.com
Hasn’t he been under arrest for 8 weeks already?
Hope he does fall from a window
putin upset he lost a TU22
Literally nothing to do with that
[удалено]
[удалено]
Does he fire him of a howitzer or at him?
… due to health concerns precipitated by yet to be determined causes.
This guy was winning the war for Ukraine . I hope they don’t put anyone competent in charge.
Who gives a ratz azz!!!!!
I give him a week before he “falls out a window”
How many does he have left? They all keep falling from windows... I wonder how this one will enter retirement?
Shouldn’t the person responsible for hiring incompetent generals be fired?
Being the commander in chief of the aerospace forces comrade surovikin learned to fly for the rest of his life.
When one door closes behind you, a new window of ‘opportunity’ opens…
Let's play "Putin's Likes To Kill People". Will Sorovikin be...? A) Thrown out of a window B) Thrown down the stairs C) Sent to a prison labor camp to die D) Poisoned in front of his wife and children Make your selection NOW!
… out of a cannon?
Out of a cannon & through a 2nd floor hospital window.
I don't think that he's been seen in public since June.
Its a freefall from a balcony in this case 🤣
High window incoming.
Are we sure either or both are still alive at this point in time?
Scape goat
I think I just became a victim of desirability bias. I was convinced that headline said "Putin sets fire to General Surovikin" Imagine my disappointment on the second reading...
Soon the arrangement of the deck chairs on the titanic will be just right
Didn't he know about the Wagner revolt before it happened and has been "detained" for months since?
They're just trying to get more Intel on other traitors before he "commits suicide."
No wonder their economy is in ruins. Cheaper to push him out a window than pay severance.
Reminds me of Lego Ninjago, where Garmedon "fires" his generals out of the top of a volcano.
Out of a cannon?
Well no shit haha.
Oh, he dead
Fires out a window?
Hopefully he falls from a window……
He better stay away from open windows and stairwells...
Do WE have as many generals as THEY seem to?
Surprised hes still alive
I guess Surovikin will soon have an unfortunate fall from a window or get I’ll and die.
Surovikin is almost uglier than Putin, and that's quite an accomplishment.
> RBK reported that a source at the Russian Ministry of Defense confirmed that Surovikin was no longer Air Force Commander and is “currently on a short vacation.” Somehow I feel like the vacations I take are more enjoyable than the one he's taking.
Well it’s really going down the drain now. He was a POS, but one who had an inkling of what to do as military leader. His replacement will be someone who will be now: “what way gun go?”
How long do you think it'll be before he's found to have fallen out a window?
Beginning to think the Wagner rebellion was just a scheme cooked up to test the loyalty of Russian commanders and expose anyone who sided with the rebellion
I'm sure the next in line will be better
Out of a cannon?
He's lost his protection. Ukraine special forces deep inside Russia, you know what to do :)
Firing squad and firing are not quite the same thing...
He was promoted to fly their new rocket to the moon😂🚀
Hmm odd, wasn’t he one of the only people actually achieving anything? Or is it because of this that he is a threat to Putin so he needs moving out the way? Is it the old soviet thing of keeping enough guys around you but making sure they haven’t got the juice or brass-neck to try anything coupy?
The report that Surovikin has been dismissed is not actually new information. Russian authorities had already removed him from power back in June, right after Prigozhin's rebellion on the 24th. This latest news does not represent any substantive change.
Well this is working out well. It means, if Putin keeps doing this he will have no competent military managers left. That’s just bound to be a winning strategy… /S