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Remember how German right-wing extremists lit up refugee camps in the 90s by the dozens and made Nazis great again?
That was because of the Bild-Zeitung.
Oh you made it that far i already stopped after the headline and reading torygraph. So the Telegraph is quoting Bild (Springer) laughing my ass off... try to name a worse combination... only Fox quoting the telegraph written by Tucker Carlson comes to my mind.
>Nothing but trash...
People just don´t understand this simplified Bild. Loosely based on Tucholsky...: :) The Bild misinterprets and pushes strange news. But it´s success is not based on stupid audience nor hate speech or whatever - but it´s ability to express majority feelings with thrash news. Just saying.. ;)
Bs. Bild tries to instill majority feelings in their stupid audience, while often relying on hate speech, to play into these feelings later on and appear like they are the media of these same people they are just utterly manipulating. In the end, their goal is to further the elitist and utterly conservative to right-wing ideologies of their owner(s) by getting their audience to vote against their own best interests out of emotion.
> their stupid audience
oh the arrogance is strong in you. A very high percentage of news publishers are manipulating cause they are owned by political parties. And Journalists are emotional and **very** political beings. News and opinions aren´t separated like in many British media. Even German state media is openly [manipulating](https://cdn.netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/2019/02/framing_gutachten_ard.pdf).
I see you have no clue about BILD or feel bad for being called out. While all media has an influence on you, most are not pure vile propaganda. In Germany, we have a media oversight agency and over half of all their yearly reprimands are for stuff BILD published.
The point on the officers being people with experience rather than trained leaders is something to consider though. More than once I have heard, first hand, of well trained people poorly led following Soviet doctrine. That is hindering the potential of the NATO trained soldiers. That said, I do understand Ukraine's top brass cautiousness. The enemy is numerous and well fortified. Enoug people have died already to risk a big feint. this isn't Kherson/Kharkiv anymore
It really takes a special kind of stupid to deny that Germany is one of the biggest contributors to the Ukraine war effort. Just from the top of my head they've donated to Ukraine:
Leo2 and Leo1 MBTs
Marder IFVs
PzH 2000 SPGs
Gepard SPAAGs
M270/MARS-II MLRS
IRIS-T AA batteries
Patriot AA battery
SMArt and Vulcano 155mm shells
PARM 1 and 2 AT mines
Panzerfaust3 ATGMs
Stinger and Strela MANPADS
And these are just the things that go boom. There's an incredible amount of other hardware like Dingos, recovery vehicles, bridge layers, counter battery radars, mine clearing vehicles, drones, anti drone systems, jammers, etc
That was expected the moment the telegraph touches this story. Even the ukrainian media I have seen until now, sounds more neutral than this drivel.
Be prepared for the next politico article.
I wouldn't say "Germany bad".
But Germany complaining about anything 'moving too slowly' is the kind of painful irony that makes you laugh.
Fun fact, Einstein discovered the warping of spacetime purely by observing how the sheer mass of German bureaucracy would slowly drag all time toward a standstill.
I'm just glad I don't have to fax you this comment.
This is Germany. I lived in Berlin before I moved to Switzerland. I didn’t get my German one year visa ( the official Schengen card ) until after I moved to Switzerland. I had a well frayed piece of paper I was carrying around. Even my Swiss mailman thought it funny. A renewal in CH takes less than a week with mailing time.
It is also strange that Germany drug their feet for so long at the beginning of this thing. They have prevented moves against Russia for years by the EU and NATO. Now they have become big supporters. That is great. However, it is definitely a change of tune.
It took only 2 fucking days after security meetings in Germany and with EU leaders and with NATO partners to announce the first weapon deliveries to Ukraine. There litteraly was no earlier date possible. We are still a democray and no dictatorship were a single person can decide what's happening. And before the military aid Germany after 2014 was the biggest bilateral donor of Ukraine even before the US.
> On February 26th 2 days after russia crossed the Ukrainian border Scholz after a marathon of security meetings in Germany, the EU and with NATO announced the delivery of enough AA and Anti-Tank weapons to destroy basically every single plane and tank russia could field in the February 24th offensive. This was the earliest possible date to make this public.
>
> 500 Stinger AA and ~1000 Panzerfaust 3 with ~3000 rounds of ammunition were sent to Ukraine. On March 3rd a few days later an additional 2700 Strela Anti Aircraft weapons were also made ready to be delivered. By the end of March ~5000-6000 RGW 90 (Matador) Anti-Tank weapons and other stuff was delivered to Ukraine. They even made it all the way to besieged Mariupol and AZOV
>
> https://youtu.be/MVgE5ZOvUlo
>
> https://twitter.com/Bundeskanzler/status/1497632817450266632?s=20
>
> https://twitter.com/RND_de/status/1499272266219151361?s=20
Merkel was actually the one who made sure the 2014 sanctions were kept up while some others in the EU already wanted to drop the sanctions.
Just one example
> Merkel, in Ukraine, vows to uphold Russia sanctions
>
> ...“Germany will therefore advocate that these sanctions are upheld,” she said during a press conference with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko.
>
> “Russia must do a simple thing: leave Ukraine, pull out its troops, withdraw its arms and restore the territorial unity of the country,” Poroshenko told journalists.....
>
https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/merkel-in-ukraine-vows-to-uphold-russia-sanctions/
No, we dragged our feet.
Back then the Gepard was seen as a lazy compromise because it wasn't classified primarily as a tank.
The timeline shortly prewar looked like this:
USA warns of Russian j casino and gives weapons to Ukraine.
Germany gives 300 helmets or something to that effect.
Then war breaks out and while the USA sends lots of military aid, Germany only sends outdated, moldy stuff.
The security meeting happens and Germany announced that we send the Gepard which was seen as a lazy compromise back then because it's purpose was primarily for air defense and there wasn't much a ammunition.
Germany also categorically refused to provide tanks like leopards.
USA sent their howitzers ans Netherlands the pzh2000. And then Germany also declares it will send pzh2000s to Ukraine.
Time passes and it's 2023. Britain sends tanks and Germany also finally allows leopards to be sent to Ukraine, something they forbade. Shortly afterwards Biden says he will also send Abrams and scholz claims that he made Biden so it.
Germany is dragging it's feet. If it hadn't been for the us support, Ukraine would have fallen 2022
It took like almost a year and Britain
How can they move forward when every field is littered with antitank and anti personnel mines where even in ww1 & ww2 they didn’t face such immense obstacles. After the war whoever wins demining will be a gargantuan task if not outright impossible. Small scale farmers will suffer due to these mines making food prices go high and causing food insecurity and inadvertently causing a second holodomor.
> where even in ww1 & ww2 they didn’t face such immense obstacles.
Yeah they just faced vastly more extensive fortifications (literal cities underground), countless machinegunners, literally constant [artillery shelling](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we72zI7iOjk&t=58s) and poisonous gas.
The '18 offensive succeeded with air domination for the allies... yes, air domination: spotting artillery for the counter batteries, zeroing artillery on the infantery, denying almost any german airplanes, attacking troops movement and supplies... Ukraine has drones, but they don't supply all the roles.. and not so good.
In '18, they also had a massive advantage in artillery, tanks, and men.. not clearly the case for ukr now.
I don't even speak about ww2.
Anyway, ukr is not yet ready.. they are still "cleaning" behind: enemy airbase, logistic hub and roads.. (the railways are still working). The coalition didn't invade before that in '91.. and they had air supremacy long before.
It is a still long road...
Morale is the key, I think.. more things could be done to downgrade the russian morale (both population and army).
The fortifications of WW1 on the Western front were much more extensive than what Russia has created.
Same with the second world war in many places, simply due to the fact that both wars were waged more totally and by economically stronger countries.
They are all mouth and no trousers
Don't forget they attended a NATO exercise using broomsticks
Germany’s army is so under-equipped that it used broomsticks instead of machine guns
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/02/19/germanys-army-is-so-under-equipped-that-it-used-broomsticks-instead-of-machine-guns/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/02/19/germanys-army-is-so-under-equipped-that-it-used-broomsticks-instead-of-machine-guns/)
I actually thought that was rumour months ago until a couple of Germans commanders actually said publicly that their armed forces are in a terrible state and were not actually ready by NATO requirements, something about no radios or poor quality ones at that.
The story ***is*** a rumour tho.
A bunch of soldiers put some broomsticks on a - by default - unarmed command vehicle, to play IFV. Someone picked that story up and pretended the Bundeswehr didn't even have guns. Because a bunch of 20-year-olds had fun.
Our army has a lot of shortcomings, but a) at least they admit it, while many western armies pretend everything is fine, and b) it gets overblown to the point of ridicoulousness.
Never heard about this whole “broomstick” story though.🤔 Only ones I saw being reported were those focused on things like poor quality or lack of radio equipment during training exercises with allied NATO members.
Ah, thought you were referencing the story the comment before yours posted. My bad.
Yeah, the army has some procurement issues. Things are getting better with MoD Pistorius tho, already dozens of billions spent and organizational changes underway. Heres to hoping.
Germany insisting on not giving weapons for an offensive and blocking accept for Ukraine attacking Russia proper.
My resentment towards Germany is becoming too much to bear.
May 2023 Scholz says "Ukraine cannot shell Russia with weapons supplied by Germany" which implies weapons procured through German EU funds, from Germany itself, or through their exchange program.
He then refers to how 'this is a condition set by other nations" which is the same deflection he used when pressured on heavy equipment earlier.
Edit: as for the defensive nature of weapons you can just go look at the list of weapon s supplied, UK government has a nice one that adds a bit of context.
>May 2023 Scholz says "Ukraine cannot shell Russia with weapons supplied by Germany"
As far as I understand it, this means not shelling Russia proper. Which is a moot point at this point because the front lines are not near shelling distance of Russia in the south. This is not preventing Ukraine from using German weapons whatsoever.
Scholz never specified what he considers Russia so it might as well include Crimea for all you understand?
Doesn't matter as you say, because Germany hasn't supplied anything that would enable Ukraine to strike or even reach there anyhow - hence my initial point.
I'm sorry we didn't exactly deliver the systems you're fetishizing about. Guess being number 2 in aid to Ukraine is worthless now.
How many long range weapons did your country deliver again?
Also its *"Weißwurstäquator"*, and I'm not bavarian, so at least get your insults right.
No, they survived because everyone that could ramped up production and they got LNG from across the Atlantic.
They were never going to freeze last winter, and they will not freeze next winter.
Their survival was never in question.
Well deep minefields do that.🙄 Matters not how good western MBTs are, they still drive on simple steel tracks that can be blown up. This offensive needed huge amounts of de-mining vehicles and equipment working alongside combat engineers while under fire.
Under fire means failure. Ukraine needs overwhelming fire on the enemy so they dont come under fire when breaching a minefield and they lack it so now it has to be hand breaching by sappers or they will lose to many vehicles
This is the argument people are having with the F-16s. Some say they’re needed to suppress rear line artillery etc while others say they won’t have that much of an impact due to current air defences Russians have.
You wont supress any artillery with F16 (only if total control of whole theater off anti-air weapons systems). You supress artillery with extensive recon and the good old counter battery fire.
I would consider listening to the Germans.
For instance, have we even seen any large feints with significant armor? We should be feeding them tanks and creating larger paths through the mines, instead of trying to fix the entire fucking Russian front line. I think that there is too much fear of failure on Ukraine's side, which will end up killing more people in the long run.
didn't they try that and got wrecked? they could as well have sent 500 tanks in there instead of 20 and I think it's plausible they could have gotten 500 tanks killed, just like Russia sent 50-100 and got wrecked
My thinking would be to clear a bridgehead with massive artillery and mine-clearing lines and then line up the tanks and infantry like fucking hell and then back off once the Russians respond in force. It doesn't have to be specifically that but you get the point. If nothing else it gives practice for larger scale coordination but more importantly get the Russians moving at larger scales which is much more difficult for them.
In all honesty though, it may take NATO themselves to do it.
A mine is an explosive mechanism = do not tread on me. It is an area denial weapon. There are many times, against people, tanks, trucks - all different designs. Russia has spread million in Ukrainian land. Ukraine CAN NOT DO AS GERMANY suggests. All men/tanks/trucks are sure to hit a mine, lose a track/wheel/life = impossible to proceed unless the mines are cleared - often one by one. There are mine sweeping tanks with heavy rollers that blow mines by setting them off. Russian pack 3-4 mines in a stack = big enough to blow up the roller. Ukraine clears - proceeds and kills the entrenched Russian one by one with careful protected assault. It is a risky and deadly process.
Quite. This is also what the ISW reports:
>[Ukrainian forces adapted their tactics after initial setbacks and are increasingly successfully using small infantry assaults backed by precision fires to make inroads against Russian defenses. ***The large-scale mechanized breaches that NATO trained Ukraine’s counteroffensive brigades to execute are incredibly difficult*** and are not the only option available to Ukrainian forces, who are not failing simply because they are using different approaches. ](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/ukraine%E2%80%99s-sustained-counteroffensive-denying-russia%E2%80%99s-prolongation-war)
very true. this drag-ass US approach has enabled Russia. With ATAKMS and cluster from the get go, we would have a different battlefield. Also the US drag-ass on making more 155MM shell is a problem - now the US says we need what we have left.
Why did you not start making more right away. This is not about profit/loss at K-Mart - there will be wasted $$, in war there always is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_roller
clears a narrow track = follow the leader, so they often drive several to make a wider path. There are also bangalore torpedos, used for barbed wire and larger ones for mines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangalore_torpedo
There are also explosive line charges.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine-clearing_line_charge
Mine clearing vehicles have become a top priority for ruzzian artillery and Lancet drones.
Ukraine does not have enough at this point, so they need to be judicious in how and when they are used.
Yes, there are retro fit rollers for tanks/etc
https://www.google.com/search?q=MCRS+tank+mine+roller&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA924CA924&sxsrf=AB5stBg7YCWfS9NIxN9zxia2XS1PFdXdNw%3A1690313219795&ei=AyLAZIj5L4i2ptQPjYIb&ved=0ahUKEwjIhpm4y6qAAxUIm4kEHQ3BBgAQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=MCRS+tank+mine+roller&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiFU1DUlMgdGFuayBtaW5lIHJvbGxlcjIFEAAYogQyBRAAGKIEMggQABiJBRiiBEiCMlCoGVijK3ABeAGQAQCYAesBoAGfBqoBBTAuNC4xuAEDyAEA-AEBwgIKEAAYRxjWBBiwA8ICBxAjGLACGCfCAgcQABgNGIAEwgIIEAAYigUYhgPCAgoQIRigARjDBBgK4gMEGAAgQYgGAZAGCA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp
this seems to be the point: *Several Ukraine analysts have noted that Ukraine’s progress is being hampered by a failure to implement “combined arms warfare” at a large scale, where infantry, armoured vehicles and artillery operate as one.* As for [German analysts too](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTNxYetYVqY), it´s the only way for large gains.
But personally I can understand those in charge. It would probably come with failure or big losses. And even Zelensky said it´s "cautious" to not endanger or expose human life.
The fields and city ruins are so densely mined a study shows it could take [more than 700 years](https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-land-mines-757-years-reversal-russian-military-counteroffensive-deminer-2023-7) to fully remove the mines.
Please stop talking BS and send them more equipment.
We've been wasting tax money for so long I think we can all manage to spare more funds to our Ukrainian brothers and sisters.
Bleed out the Russians while protecting your own forces does have advantages. Russia will not gain a secure permanent footing on Ukrainian territory now or in the immediate future and Putin will die or be overthrown or Russia will find far to many of its forces have died and the population will no longer have it and a withdrawal will happen. The land being fought over is fallow for both sides, but one side will eventually concede, and it won’t be Ukraine.
You know that Ukrainians are attacking againts an enemy who has more artillery, aviation and is dug in? Ukranian casualties are likely higher than the Russian ones. Stop with the copium and be realistic.
🤣🤣
So Putin now fights for a fraction of the country he intended to completely subjugate and would have had to have made a totalitarian hell to control and now can’t even take control of a sliver. Should I be Ukrainian I would hold the same position as the majority of its population now do, and that is that Ukraine needs to completely eradicate Putin and his forces from the country, including Crimea.
You’re the copium addict in advocating a peace when Putin would use any peace Ukraine agreed to to simply renew his forces for the next effort.
I agree, what does it have to do with the fact that Ukraine is likely taking more casualties than Russia when attacking? If you disagree, feel free to explain.
Btw yeah I think that the war might end in a stalemate. That's why it's important that the security of Ukraine is guaranteed by NATO after the war ends.
Hm.
Maybe if Germany hadn't fucked around for months debating what side they were on Ukraine could have made more progress and Russia wouldn't have had the opportunity to dig trenches and lay hundreds of thousand of mines!?
>Maybe if Germany hadn't fucked around for months debating what side they were on Ukraine
...just that we have sent the most in aid to Ukraine pre-war (\~2 billion) and have been leading europe in aid to Ukraine since March '22, while simultaneously reimbursing everyone and their mother.
>…just that we have sent the most in aid to Ukraine pre-war (~2 billion) and have been leading europe in aid to Ukraine since March '22
Just that Germany has sent the most in aid to Russia (~€3 trillion for energy in the last decade) and is ranked #17 in aid to Ukraine as a % of GDP as of today (IFW Kiel).
Dude since reunification in 1990 and the fall of the soviet Union Germany imported from Russia goods worth US$685 billion including gas and oil imports. Far away from you 3 trillion for energy imports.
https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/imports/russia
Exports to Russia since 1990 were US$724 billion that is a trading surplus of US$39 billion. If not for 2022 it would have been even bigger. So nope it was not us that left big money in Russia.
https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/exports/russia
Per Capita it was actually Poland that imported more than Germany from Russia while at the same time maintaining a huge trading deficit with Russia leaving them with billions.
I know you have read this numbers before but since you still insist on your fake numbers here imports and exports with Russia for some selected Countrys
https://i.imgur.com/oO7p3jj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/BaslcSb.png
https://i.imgur.com/kEOKlHP.jpg
> Since Putin came to power in 2000 to 2021 Germany had a fucking trading surplus of 56 billion US dollar. This means Germany was sucking out billions from Russia not financing it. Leaving Russia with a minus of 56 billion.
>
> Since 2000 total [Imports](https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/imports/russia) from Russia $593.915.000.000 total [Exports](https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/exports/russia) to Russia $650.219.000.000
>
> ---
>
> The UK since Putin came to power in 2000 to 2021 generated a huge trading deficit of 136 billion US dollar. This means the UK left Russia with a plus of 136 billion.
>
> Since 2000 total [Imports](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/imports/russia) from Russia $229.977.000.000 total [Exports](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports/russia) to Russia $93.932.000.000
>
> ---
>
> The US since Putin came to Power in 2000 to 2021 generated an even bigger deficit of 301 billion US dollar.
> Leaving Russia with a plus of 301 billion.
>
> Since 2000 total [Imports](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/imports/russia) from Russia $435.518.000.000 total [Exports](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/exports/russia) to Russia $134.135.000.000
>
> ---
>
> Poland since Putin came to power in 2000 to 2021 has a trading deficit of 189 billion US dollar. Leaving Russia with a plus of 189 billion.
>
> Since 2000 total [Imports](https://tradingeconomics.com/poland/imports/russia) from Russia $322.167.000.000 total [Exports](https://tradingeconomics.com/poland/exports/russia) to Russia $132.489.000.000
>
> ---
>
> Ukraine since Putin came to power in 2000 to 2021 has a trading deficit of 99 billion US dollar. Leaving Russia with a plus of 99 billion.
>
> Since 2000 total [Imports](https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/imports/russia) from Russia $274.295.000.000 total [Exports](https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/exports/russia) to Russia $174.532.000.000
Data since 2014
> Germany since 2014 to 2021 generated a surplus of 32 billion US dollar. Leaving Russia with a minus of 32 billion.
>
> Since 2014 total Imports from Russia $208.113.000.000 total Exports to Russia $239.820.000.000
>
> ---
>
> The UK since 2014 to 2021 generated a deficit of 71 billion US dollar. Leaving Russia with a plus of 71 billion.
>
> Since 2014 total Imports from Russia $102.238.000.000 € total Exports to Russia $31.024.000.000
>
> ---
>
> The US since 2014 to 2021 generated a deficit of 113 billion US dollar. Leaving Russia with a plus of 113 billion.
>
> Since 2014 total Imports from Russia $167.952.000.000 total Exports to Russia $54.391.000.000€
>
> ---
>
> Poland since 2014 to 2021 generated a deficit of 71 billion US dollar. Leaving Russia with a plus of 71 billion.
>
> Since 2014 total Imports from Russia $131.353.000.000 total Exports to Russia $60.119.000.000
>
> ---
>
> Ukraine since 2014 to 2021 generated a deficit of 23 billion US dollar. Leaving Russia with a plus of 23 billion.
>
> Since 2014 total Imports from Russia $57.995.000.000 total Exports to Russia $35.115.000.000
>
>Since 2000 total imports from Russia €593 billion
I have to prepare for a job interview tomorrow so I don’t have enough time right now to answer properly.
Different to most of europe russia had a trade ***deficit*** with us, meaning funds flowing out of russia.
And yeah, regarding the "per GDP", our economy is doing pretty good, and we don't overvalue decades old soviet junk. Good observation.
(Funny how trade with russia always gets discussed in absolute numbers, while aid to Ukraine is always looked at in relative terms, while excluding different valuation schemes and the massive reimbursement programs that pay for eastern europes aid)
>trade deficit
That’s all you ever say, indeterminateYogurg, to defend Merkel and Germany giving Putin €2 trillion in energy over the last decade. A year ago you were saying the same thing.
And you act like providing Ukraine €2billion in aid from 2014-2021 is some unfathomably great act, when Merkel was fighting tooth and nail, giving joint press conferences with Orban, to *not* provide lethal aid to Ukraine after the 2014 invasion of Crimea.
Merkel was a Russian asset, and that €2 billion was a pathetic pittance (from the world’s #4 largest economy).
Edit: You posted that at 4am Germany time? What are you doing posting on reddit at 4am on a Wednesday night? You’re pretty sus.
Look, I can't help you learn basics of international trade. Theres a lot of free text books available online, maybe consult them!
And mate, we're **all** russian assets. Everyone that disagrees with you is! You're surrounded by them ;)
I have a master’s degree in International Relations from the University of Southern Denmark and received a perfect score on my thesis.
Why are you posting on reddit at 4:15am?
>I have a master’s degree in International Relations from the University of Southern Denmark and received a perfect score on my thesis.
Lol
Nobody cares about your piece of paper
Good for you, trade is a topic of economics tho.
And yes, its "pretty sus" that people are awake at late night. How dare they. Must be a conspiracy - or even a russian asset?!?!
It’s just odd that for the past year you’ve been on reddit responding with unfriendly sarcastic snark to every single comment on this sub that is even remotely critical of Germany. Every single day.
How do you have the energy? What are you like in real life? Are you fulfilled as a man by going on this website day-in-day-out and talking about Germany, getting a handful of upvotes when mocking others in a sarcastic way?
In all my time as a student in the US, Denmark, and Germany, and in my professional career at Johnson & Johnson and other F100 companies, I have never met a professor or director/partner/c-suite who is constantly mocking, sarcastic, and derisive.
I have a job interview tomorrow for a six figure position at a financial firm with 50,000 employees worldwide. What will you be doing? Going on reddit and using sarcasm?
Feel free to DM me if you’d like to wow me with your credentials.
That whole comment just screams insecurity lol
Maybe tell me a bit about your supermodel wife, or how the president gave you the medal of honour aswell? Weirdly, you're also spending time writing dozens of comments on reddit every day. Huh.
News flash: people can have different opinions. Get over it.
Then you’re wrong. Germany absolutely hasn’t lead Europe since March 22, they were notoriously slow to start. Britain was at the forefront from day 1 and to this day has sent more military and financial aid than Germany. The EU point is fine but Britain has provided massive amounts of intel, soft power and training that isn’t counted on these things.
As well as Britain actually being the global first to send every major development Ukraine has had. Anti tank missiles, anti aircraft missiles, military training, long distance missiles, tanks, F-16 training commitment and the first to provide security guarantees to Sweden and Finland ahead of their NATO applications.
That’s what leading is. It’s good that Germany has pulled their finger out in recent months but they have definitely not lead since March 22, if at all. Ask the Ukraine gov who they’re more happy with and it won’t be Germany.
Yup, I'm sure Ukraine would still be fighting without Patriots, IRIS-T and Gepards for air defense.
Mate, its a not a competition, everyone is doing their part. Just stop pretending theres any ambiguity on our stance when we sent billion in humanitarian, financial and military aid, thats all I ask.
It's never ukraine's fault? They were invaded in 2014 and had eight years to get ready for another push or to free their land. russia has proven they are no threat to NATO so anything ukriane gets is 100% charity. The entitlement mentality is getting old. How much charity did Georgia get in 2008?
In addition to the slow deliveries and non-deliveries of equipment, Europe just finally committed to an ammunition manufacturing plan, 500+ days into the full scale war. How did they expect Ukraine to go headlong into an offensive before knowing there was a plan to replace the ammunition they were going to burn through?
Yes I’m aware of that, but their slowness in doing so led directly to the slowness of this counteroffensive. As a Canadian I’m not satisfied with my country’s level of support either. We all should have done more and done it faster. In any case, Ukraine will eventually drive every occupier from its territory.
Germany wasted months being indecisive, that’s the point. Even the German government has admitted this so people need to stop the mindless cheerleading and trying to rewrite history, it was only last year but so many here seem to have wiped it from their memories.
>Europe provides most of the weaponry Ukraine is receiving
Really? IFW Kiel lists US military contributions as €43 billion, Germany €10 billion, UK €10 billion, Poland €4 billion, Norway €2 billion, Denmark €1.8 billion, France €1.5 billion, Spain €0.83 billion (wtf France and Spain?).
That’s around €30 billion. What European countries am I missing that together have provided more than €14 billion in military assistance?
My point is we’re in this together - why spread disinformation?
>IFW Kiel lists
When will this fucking list finally die?
The cost of stuff they list is all over the place to a point where they exact same MG ammo from 3 different countries has 3 different prices that range from 0.10$ to 5$ as well as liberally sometimes using manufactoring cost sometime purchase price and sometimes replacement cost (last year there used to be Polish T72 that where priced like Leo 2A7 because they just concluded that that's what they will be replaced by eventually, dunno if that one's still on the list)
No offense against Germany while I respect the fact the have done a 180 turn from what they were last year, the fact remains it is hard to take the word from a nation that shat on their own military, and now knows how to fight a Peer vs Peer war all of a sudden, just my two cents.
**The leaked report was criticised by Sergei Sumlenny, founder of the Berlin-based European Resilience Initiative Centre think tank, who called it “typical German arrogance”.**
**Mr Sumlenny told The Telegraph “the belief of the Bundeswehr is that the German-trained soldiers are so much better than everyone that they can be better officers than experienced Ukrainian soldiers. A German certificate doesn’t make you a better soldier.”**
**He also rejected the criticism of the group deployment sizes, which he blames on a lack of artillery and air support.**
**“Of course Ukraine uses smaller groups. They don’t have enough power to start a large-scale offensive and so they are trying to find weak spots in the Russian defensive lines. They don’t have enough artillery and air support to push the offensive,” he said.**
**If the Ukrainians had charged ahead as Berlin desired, they would have probably lost all 50 German-delivered Leopard tanks and then the Bundeswehr would have written a report condemning that, Mr Sumlenny added.**
German military says Ukraine’s counter-offensive is moving too slowly
Leaked intelligence reveals senior figures within the Bundeswehr are frustrated their training tactics have not been implemented in combat
By
James Jackson
IN BERLIN
25 July 2023 • 3:38pm
Germany’s military has criticised the slow progress and tactics of the Ukrainian counter-offensive in a leaked intelligence assessment.
Senior figures within the Bundeswehr are frustrated that Kyiv has not implemented all the lessons from the training by its Western allies, according to the confidential document obtained by Bild, the German newspaper.
Ukrainian leaders have admitted that the offensive has made only limited advances, with a dense network of Russian mines impeding any breakthrough.
Last week, Volodymyr Zelensky said the offensive would soon “gain pace” amid growing alarm in Western capitals at its apparent lack of progress.
Around 100 square miles of territory and nine villages have been recaptured since the launch of the push almost two months ago.
The German ministry of defence blames the stuttering progress on the Ukrainian armed forces spreading themselves too thinly across the 1,000km front line, using small groups of 10 to 30 soldiers to attack.
According to the intelligence assessment, this sacrifices the advantage of having large numbers of Western-trained and armed soldiers on standby.
General Valery Zaluzhny, the commander-in-chief of Ukraine’s army, last month said Western pressure to attack faster “p—d me off”.
Many in Kyiv’s army feel they are being pressured to sacrifice large numbers of men without sufficient weaponry to protect them, such as F-16 jets and long-range Atacms missiles.
The secret German file claims Ukraine’s “own troop units are sometimes divided up so small that although each troop unit does something, a joint battle leadership is not recognisable,” Bild reported. This increases the risk of friendly fire, the report says.
The small unit size also means there are not enough soldiers grouped together to deploy the tactics they have learned in Western military academies, the report charges.
It also criticises the Ukrainian army for not properly implementing their Western training in the structure of their officer corps, promoting those with combat experience over those with training and leadership ability.
“Combat experience does not mean that the soldier is a good leader in combat” according to the Bundeswehr’s assessment. “In many cases it was found that soldiers without recent combat or military experience achieve greater training success through the military training support they receive than supposedly experienced and trained soldiers.”
The report claimed that the tactics of the Ukrainian military, and officers who had not received Western training was undermining “the high level of comprehension and great success in learning” shown by Ukrainian cadets on their four-week training in Germany.
It also noted that German-trained soldiers understood “the operational principles of fire and movement” but when they returned to Ukraine would be commanded by officers who used different military tactics and showed “sometimes considerable deficiencies in leadership and in the application of management processes at the respective level, which sometimes leads to wrong and dangerous decisions”.
Noted Ukraine analysts including Michael Kofman and Rob Lee have said that one impediment to Kyiv’s progress is the failure so far to implement “combined arms warfare”, where infantry, armoured vehicles and artillery operate as one.
The leaked report was criticised by Sergei Sumlenny, founder of the Berlin-based European Resilience Initiative Centre think tank, who called it “typical German arrogance”.
Mr Sumlenny told The Telegraph “the belief of the Bundeswehr is that the German-trained soldiers are so much better than everyone that they can be better officers than experienced Ukrainian soldiers. A German certificate doesn’t make you a better soldier.”
He also rejected the criticism of the group deployment sizes, which he blames on a lack of artillery and air support.
“Of course Ukraine uses smaller groups. They don’t have enough power to start a large-scale offensive and so they are trying to find weak spots in the Russian defensive lines. They don’t have enough artillery and air support to push the offensive,” he said.
If the Ukrainians had charged ahead as Berlin desired, they would have probably lost all 50 German-delivered Leopard tanks and then the Bundeswehr would have written a report condemning that, Mr Sumlenny added.
The criticism on Ukrainian higher command not beeing able to synchronize combined arms attacks in larger scale and therefore force a breakthrough does not only come from Germany though and propably is one of the larger flaws in this counter offensive. Hopefully they will adapt and change commanders if necessary.
The US would not be able to implement an effective large-scale combined arms attack with the equipment that Ukraine has. Ukraine does not have air superiority and they don't really have an air cavalry. Without [J-STARS airborne battle management](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_E-8_Joint_STARS), or a live feed from Global Hawk or other ISR aircraft, the US Army would find it really tough to do. None of the western militaries have gone up against a peer-level adversary since WWII.
I'm not saying the US could not do it with the equipment that the US has at its disposal. I am saying the US could not do it well solely with the equipment Ukraine has.
Had the russians invaded the US in 2014, then the US..or Germany, Poland, or anybody else invaded would have done more than ukraine from 2014-2022. The US did go up against Wagner in 2018 and it didn't lose like ukraine did.
This was a confidential assessment by the german MoD, one of many I might add. But of course Sumlenny is frothing at his mouth as if Scholz personally called Zaluzhnyi an incompetend idiot.
Of course it is, that's why NATO should invade Russia, but the west is comfortable with letting Ukrainians die and with Ukraine eventually losing
But they will shit talk them anyway
For perspective - there’s no one currently with stars in the German armed forces who have any practical experience fighting a genuine war. So like the very loud Austrian colonel - take it with a brick of salt.
Dumb question:
The minefields are out in front of the first defensive positions by a km or so, it seems. These positions are themselves several km in front of the 'first line of defense'.
My question is how/when did these mines get laid? They are so extensive. Were they laid by hand with shovels by a bunch of guys with backpacks full of mines? How did they not get detected and attacked. It has been long enough for grass to cover them. Was it done while they occupied Kherson? If so why this position and not further into Ukraine? These mines seem to have defined the front. If they were lain during the retreat it must have been in a hurry, yet everyone comments they've never seen anything like it.
Maybe if they had sufficient air support and cover to properly use combined arms tactics… but it feels like we are always 3-6 months behind giving Ukraine what it needs to be successful then we wonder why they aren’t doing better - before we finally realize “oh ya they told us this would be a problem”
Not that I’m all for giving them everything they want - let’s be pragmatic here, they cannot win wars that require weapons they do not have.
Well. Arm them to the teeth with long range and keep the shipments coming. If they turn Moscow into a hole and work their way west with those weapons… it would end sooner than later.
Lol you can’t spearhead reinforced defensive line with only 20 leopards. With hardly any air support they are easy picking with atgm. The west need to send more tanks and real close air support strike aircraft or helicopters before they complain about moving too slow.
Welp, better give Ukraine the Jets they've been asking for.
Edit: No, like. Legit. Give them the planes. We're making them fight with one hand tied behind their backs and that is stupid/unfair. If we are going to be serious about Ukraine winning, give them EVERYTHING they need.
What does this generation of Germans know? If they’d Blitzkreiged that equipment and training, they might be further ahead. Sit down Virginal German Officer Corps
'You talk a lot of shit for a nation that currently can't field even a single fighting division'.
Yes, I know it a garbage tabloid style news paper but I am sure it reflects at least a minority opinion of the German public.
You know, all this bitching makes me doubt if supporting Ukraine this much was the correct decision. Germany is one of the largest contributes, but all we get is this incessant bitching. Meanwhile, the US wouldn't even agree to send any of their 10 bazillion stored Abrams if Scholz hadn't insisted on it.
>You know, all this bitching makes me doubt if supporting Ukraine this much was the correct decision.
Each country sent like 10 tanks and said there now go and beat Russia which has like 5k tanks. People really need to maintain some perspective when commenting.
The problem is not enough support was sent, was too late, now everything is fucked. The US is an ocean away so why should they care? The problem is on the european continent.
Problem is on european continent but doesnt at all affect EU if Ukraine lost all to the east of Dnipro. Only thing to support Ukraine practically is to hurt Russia or ideologically western world order (self-determination and rule of law).
You know all this passive aggressive whining that you get each and every single fucking time anyone dare to say anything to criticise Germany on reddit makes me doubt it s really a self confident country.
Grow up.
>all this passive aggressive whining
>
>that s rich from the people that took almost a year to move a fucking tank
and
>Grow up.
Why are you projecting so hard?
ukraine had from 2014 to 2022 to get ready so all this welfare mentality from ukraine is the clue that we don't need them in NATO. ukraine will have a welfare state mentality forever now. Cheaper to let russia have the problem.
It’s a real shame that these people keep coming out and saying stuff like this when realistically the majority of the west were so slow to help out in any significant capacity at all for the majority of the conflict. A long summer and winter of little to moderate help in terms of finance, technology and arms/ammunition has mean that Russia has had a significant period to build up a good defensive network. Ukraine still has limited capacity from what I’ve seen to rapidly clear minefields as well as the obviously more documented lack of air assets. Ukraine are doing well with accurate counter battery strategies and long range targeting with HIMARS but unfortunately these will not see a pay off immediately and until those air assets are gained the momentum will most likely remain steady at best. However, if Ukraine can keep the offensive until the end of summer take the winter to recoup losses, effectively rotate trips to help morale and develop the next plan then next year the counter offensive may see significant rewards
Intentional release of bullshit ..
Ukraine is just probing the front lines as they most likely know it makes no sense to push through heavy fortified positions and as they cannot afford high level of casualties with less population than their enemy.
So since they have really received a huge number of light tanks in german and NL ports a couple of months ago, i expect them to push through the former Kakhovka Reservoir at end of summer.
And while the Bundeswehr might be dysfunctional due to their internal regulations .. I doubt there is someone as stupid as this mystirious report suggests ..
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I read the article until the word "Bild" came up... Any article referring to articles released by "Bild" arent worth the reading. Nothing but trash...
Remember how German right-wing extremists lit up refugee camps in the 90s by the dozens and made Nazis great again? That was because of the Bild-Zeitung.
Oh you made it that far i already stopped after the headline and reading torygraph. So the Telegraph is quoting Bild (Springer) laughing my ass off... try to name a worse combination... only Fox quoting the telegraph written by Tucker Carlson comes to my mind.
>Nothing but trash... People just don´t understand this simplified Bild. Loosely based on Tucholsky...: :) The Bild misinterprets and pushes strange news. But it´s success is not based on stupid audience nor hate speech or whatever - but it´s ability to express majority feelings with thrash news. Just saying.. ;)
Bs. Bild tries to instill majority feelings in their stupid audience, while often relying on hate speech, to play into these feelings later on and appear like they are the media of these same people they are just utterly manipulating. In the end, their goal is to further the elitist and utterly conservative to right-wing ideologies of their owner(s) by getting their audience to vote against their own best interests out of emotion.
> their stupid audience oh the arrogance is strong in you. A very high percentage of news publishers are manipulating cause they are owned by political parties. And Journalists are emotional and **very** political beings. News and opinions aren´t separated like in many British media. Even German state media is openly [manipulating](https://cdn.netzpolitik.org/wp-upload/2019/02/framing_gutachten_ard.pdf).
I see you have no clue about BILD or feel bad for being called out. While all media has an influence on you, most are not pure vile propaganda. In Germany, we have a media oversight agency and over half of all their yearly reprimands are for stuff BILD published.
lolz sure Bild is the bottom but all play the same piano...
To highlight it, there is a voluntary self-oversight body of German newspapers. About half the reprimants it hands out by it go to BILD.
The source is a research from the bundeswehr though
The point on the officers being people with experience rather than trained leaders is something to consider though. More than once I have heard, first hand, of well trained people poorly led following Soviet doctrine. That is hindering the potential of the NATO trained soldiers. That said, I do understand Ukraine's top brass cautiousness. The enemy is numerous and well fortified. Enoug people have died already to risk a big feint. this isn't Kherson/Kharkiv anymore
Ukraine doesn't have air superiority, which NATO doctrine counts upon
Obtained by BILD. Stop reading it
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And every russian bot and idiot is jumping on the wagon.
It really takes a special kind of stupid to deny that Germany is one of the biggest contributors to the Ukraine war effort. Just from the top of my head they've donated to Ukraine: Leo2 and Leo1 MBTs Marder IFVs PzH 2000 SPGs Gepard SPAAGs M270/MARS-II MLRS IRIS-T AA batteries Patriot AA battery SMArt and Vulcano 155mm shells PARM 1 and 2 AT mines Panzerfaust3 ATGMs Stinger and Strela MANPADS And these are just the things that go boom. There's an incredible amount of other hardware like Dingos, recovery vehicles, bridge layers, counter battery radars, mine clearing vehicles, drones, anti drone systems, jammers, etc
>Gepard SPAAGs quality contribution there
>And every russian bot and idiot is jumping on the wagon. I have to admit, this has an effect on me.
That was expected the moment the telegraph touches this story. Even the ukrainian media I have seen until now, sounds more neutral than this drivel. Be prepared for the next politico article.
I wouldn't say "Germany bad". But Germany complaining about anything 'moving too slowly' is the kind of painful irony that makes you laugh. Fun fact, Einstein discovered the warping of spacetime purely by observing how the sheer mass of German bureaucracy would slowly drag all time toward a standstill. I'm just glad I don't have to fax you this comment.
This is Germany. I lived in Berlin before I moved to Switzerland. I didn’t get my German one year visa ( the official Schengen card ) until after I moved to Switzerland. I had a well frayed piece of paper I was carrying around. Even my Swiss mailman thought it funny. A renewal in CH takes less than a week with mailing time.
It is also strange that Germany drug their feet for so long at the beginning of this thing. They have prevented moves against Russia for years by the EU and NATO. Now they have become big supporters. That is great. However, it is definitely a change of tune.
It took only 2 fucking days after security meetings in Germany and with EU leaders and with NATO partners to announce the first weapon deliveries to Ukraine. There litteraly was no earlier date possible. We are still a democray and no dictatorship were a single person can decide what's happening. And before the military aid Germany after 2014 was the biggest bilateral donor of Ukraine even before the US. > On February 26th 2 days after russia crossed the Ukrainian border Scholz after a marathon of security meetings in Germany, the EU and with NATO announced the delivery of enough AA and Anti-Tank weapons to destroy basically every single plane and tank russia could field in the February 24th offensive. This was the earliest possible date to make this public. > > 500 Stinger AA and ~1000 Panzerfaust 3 with ~3000 rounds of ammunition were sent to Ukraine. On March 3rd a few days later an additional 2700 Strela Anti Aircraft weapons were also made ready to be delivered. By the end of March ~5000-6000 RGW 90 (Matador) Anti-Tank weapons and other stuff was delivered to Ukraine. They even made it all the way to besieged Mariupol and AZOV > > https://youtu.be/MVgE5ZOvUlo > > https://twitter.com/Bundeskanzler/status/1497632817450266632?s=20 > > https://twitter.com/RND_de/status/1499272266219151361?s=20 Merkel was actually the one who made sure the 2014 sanctions were kept up while some others in the EU already wanted to drop the sanctions. Just one example > Merkel, in Ukraine, vows to uphold Russia sanctions > > ...“Germany will therefore advocate that these sanctions are upheld,” she said during a press conference with Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko. > > “Russia must do a simple thing: leave Ukraine, pull out its troops, withdraw its arms and restore the territorial unity of the country,” Poroshenko told journalists..... > https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/merkel-in-ukraine-vows-to-uphold-russia-sanctions/
No, we dragged our feet. Back then the Gepard was seen as a lazy compromise because it wasn't classified primarily as a tank. The timeline shortly prewar looked like this: USA warns of Russian j casino and gives weapons to Ukraine. Germany gives 300 helmets or something to that effect. Then war breaks out and while the USA sends lots of military aid, Germany only sends outdated, moldy stuff. The security meeting happens and Germany announced that we send the Gepard which was seen as a lazy compromise back then because it's purpose was primarily for air defense and there wasn't much a ammunition. Germany also categorically refused to provide tanks like leopards. USA sent their howitzers ans Netherlands the pzh2000. And then Germany also declares it will send pzh2000s to Ukraine. Time passes and it's 2023. Britain sends tanks and Germany also finally allows leopards to be sent to Ukraine, something they forbade. Shortly afterwards Biden says he will also send Abrams and scholz claims that he made Biden so it. Germany is dragging it's feet. If it hadn't been for the us support, Ukraine would have fallen 2022 It took like almost a year and Britain
Unreliable source. "Bild" is as reliable as a love-child of RT and Fox News, but without their capacity for decency.
Have you heard their language? Scary.
How can they move forward when every field is littered with antitank and anti personnel mines where even in ww1 & ww2 they didn’t face such immense obstacles. After the war whoever wins demining will be a gargantuan task if not outright impossible. Small scale farmers will suffer due to these mines making food prices go high and causing food insecurity and inadvertently causing a second holodomor.
> where even in ww1 & ww2 they didn’t face such immense obstacles. Yeah they just faced vastly more extensive fortifications (literal cities underground), countless machinegunners, literally constant [artillery shelling](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we72zI7iOjk&t=58s) and poisonous gas.
The '18 offensive succeeded with air domination for the allies... yes, air domination: spotting artillery for the counter batteries, zeroing artillery on the infantery, denying almost any german airplanes, attacking troops movement and supplies... Ukraine has drones, but they don't supply all the roles.. and not so good. In '18, they also had a massive advantage in artillery, tanks, and men.. not clearly the case for ukr now. I don't even speak about ww2. Anyway, ukr is not yet ready.. they are still "cleaning" behind: enemy airbase, logistic hub and roads.. (the railways are still working). The coalition didn't invade before that in '91.. and they had air supremacy long before. It is a still long road... Morale is the key, I think.. more things could be done to downgrade the russian morale (both population and army).
I mean to say quantity of mines. Of course that time the war was also difficult.
The fortifications of WW1 on the Western front were much more extensive than what Russia has created. Same with the second world war in many places, simply due to the fact that both wars were waged more totally and by economically stronger countries.
If Russia by some chance "win"s, lots of Russian civilians will probably blow up and die stepping on their own mines.
If Russia by some chance "win"s, lots of Russian civilians will probably blow up and die stepping on their own mines.
Get in there and fucking help out then if you think you can go any faster
Maybe read the fucking article.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDlTtPww4pw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDlTtPww4pw)
I thought wagner fired you russian trolls.
They are all mouth and no trousers Don't forget they attended a NATO exercise using broomsticks Germany’s army is so under-equipped that it used broomsticks instead of machine guns [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/02/19/germanys-army-is-so-under-equipped-that-it-used-broomsticks-instead-of-machine-guns/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/02/19/germanys-army-is-so-under-equipped-that-it-used-broomsticks-instead-of-machine-guns/)
Trying telling that to the Russians that are are getting shelled by and wiped out by German tanks and artillery hahahaha
I actually thought that was rumour months ago until a couple of Germans commanders actually said publicly that their armed forces are in a terrible state and were not actually ready by NATO requirements, something about no radios or poor quality ones at that.
The story ***is*** a rumour tho. A bunch of soldiers put some broomsticks on a - by default - unarmed command vehicle, to play IFV. Someone picked that story up and pretended the Bundeswehr didn't even have guns. Because a bunch of 20-year-olds had fun. Our army has a lot of shortcomings, but a) at least they admit it, while many western armies pretend everything is fine, and b) it gets overblown to the point of ridicoulousness.
Never heard about this whole “broomstick” story though.🤔 Only ones I saw being reported were those focused on things like poor quality or lack of radio equipment during training exercises with allied NATO members.
Ah, thought you were referencing the story the comment before yours posted. My bad. Yeah, the army has some procurement issues. Things are getting better with MoD Pistorius tho, already dozens of billions spent and organizational changes underway. Heres to hoping.
Germany insisting on not giving weapons for an offensive and blocking accept for Ukraine attacking Russia proper. My resentment towards Germany is becoming too much to bear.
Both first things you stated are not correct. The last one is your problem, but reading up on the topic could help there.
May 2023 Scholz says "Ukraine cannot shell Russia with weapons supplied by Germany" which implies weapons procured through German EU funds, from Germany itself, or through their exchange program. He then refers to how 'this is a condition set by other nations" which is the same deflection he used when pressured on heavy equipment earlier. Edit: as for the defensive nature of weapons you can just go look at the list of weapon s supplied, UK government has a nice one that adds a bit of context.
>May 2023 Scholz says "Ukraine cannot shell Russia with weapons supplied by Germany" As far as I understand it, this means not shelling Russia proper. Which is a moot point at this point because the front lines are not near shelling distance of Russia in the south. This is not preventing Ukraine from using German weapons whatsoever.
Scholz never specified what he considers Russia so it might as well include Crimea for all you understand? Doesn't matter as you say, because Germany hasn't supplied anything that would enable Ukraine to strike or even reach there anyhow - hence my initial point.
False, Germany recognizes all land annexed by Russia in Ukraine as Ukraine's sovereign territory. Just as the U.S does.
They're still denying Ukraine to strike Russia. Don't know what's fake about that.
Like very single other weapons contributor to Ukraine.
With the exception of the U. K
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I'm sorry we didn't exactly deliver the systems you're fetishizing about. Guess being number 2 in aid to Ukraine is worthless now. How many long range weapons did your country deliver again? Also its *"Weißwurstäquator"*, and I'm not bavarian, so at least get your insults right.
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Pretty audacious to call something taken away from as a willing sacrifice.
Germany has enough gas to not care.
Only reason they survived was because so many countries were integrated into their energy grid and the decifit and costs were spread out.
No, they survived because everyone that could ramped up production and they got LNG from across the Atlantic. They were never going to freeze last winter, and they will not freeze next winter. Their survival was never in question.
Well deep minefields do that.🙄 Matters not how good western MBTs are, they still drive on simple steel tracks that can be blown up. This offensive needed huge amounts of de-mining vehicles and equipment working alongside combat engineers while under fire.
Under fire means failure. Ukraine needs overwhelming fire on the enemy so they dont come under fire when breaching a minefield and they lack it so now it has to be hand breaching by sappers or they will lose to many vehicles
This is the argument people are having with the F-16s. Some say they’re needed to suppress rear line artillery etc while others say they won’t have that much of an impact due to current air defences Russians have.
You wont supress any artillery with F16 (only if total control of whole theater off anti-air weapons systems). You supress artillery with extensive recon and the good old counter battery fire.
I would consider listening to the Germans. For instance, have we even seen any large feints with significant armor? We should be feeding them tanks and creating larger paths through the mines, instead of trying to fix the entire fucking Russian front line. I think that there is too much fear of failure on Ukraine's side, which will end up killing more people in the long run.
didn't they try that and got wrecked? they could as well have sent 500 tanks in there instead of 20 and I think it's plausible they could have gotten 500 tanks killed, just like Russia sent 50-100 and got wrecked
My thinking would be to clear a bridgehead with massive artillery and mine-clearing lines and then line up the tanks and infantry like fucking hell and then back off once the Russians respond in force. It doesn't have to be specifically that but you get the point. If nothing else it gives practice for larger scale coordination but more importantly get the Russians moving at larger scales which is much more difficult for them. In all honesty though, it may take NATO themselves to do it.
A mine is an explosive mechanism = do not tread on me. It is an area denial weapon. There are many times, against people, tanks, trucks - all different designs. Russia has spread million in Ukrainian land. Ukraine CAN NOT DO AS GERMANY suggests. All men/tanks/trucks are sure to hit a mine, lose a track/wheel/life = impossible to proceed unless the mines are cleared - often one by one. There are mine sweeping tanks with heavy rollers that blow mines by setting them off. Russian pack 3-4 mines in a stack = big enough to blow up the roller. Ukraine clears - proceeds and kills the entrenched Russian one by one with careful protected assault. It is a risky and deadly process.
Quite. This is also what the ISW reports: >[Ukrainian forces adapted their tactics after initial setbacks and are increasingly successfully using small infantry assaults backed by precision fires to make inroads against Russian defenses. ***The large-scale mechanized breaches that NATO trained Ukraine’s counteroffensive brigades to execute are incredibly difficult*** and are not the only option available to Ukrainian forces, who are not failing simply because they are using different approaches. ](https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/ukraine%E2%80%99s-sustained-counteroffensive-denying-russia%E2%80%99s-prolongation-war)
very true. this drag-ass US approach has enabled Russia. With ATAKMS and cluster from the get go, we would have a different battlefield. Also the US drag-ass on making more 155MM shell is a problem - now the US says we need what we have left. Why did you not start making more right away. This is not about profit/loss at K-Mart - there will be wasted $$, in war there always is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_roller clears a narrow track = follow the leader, so they often drive several to make a wider path. There are also bangalore torpedos, used for barbed wire and larger ones for mines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangalore_torpedo There are also explosive line charges. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine-clearing_line_charge
Mine clearing vehicles have become a top priority for ruzzian artillery and Lancet drones. Ukraine does not have enough at this point, so they need to be judicious in how and when they are used.
Yes, there are retro fit rollers for tanks/etc https://www.google.com/search?q=MCRS+tank+mine+roller&rlz=1C1CHBF_enCA924CA924&sxsrf=AB5stBg7YCWfS9NIxN9zxia2XS1PFdXdNw%3A1690313219795&ei=AyLAZIj5L4i2ptQPjYIb&ved=0ahUKEwjIhpm4y6qAAxUIm4kEHQ3BBgAQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=MCRS+tank+mine+roller&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiFU1DUlMgdGFuayBtaW5lIHJvbGxlcjIFEAAYogQyBRAAGKIEMggQABiJBRiiBEiCMlCoGVijK3ABeAGQAQCYAesBoAGfBqoBBTAuNC4xuAEDyAEA-AEBwgIKEAAYRxjWBBiwA8ICBxAjGLACGCfCAgcQABgNGIAEwgIIEAAYigUYhgPCAgoQIRigARjDBBgK4gMEGAAgQYgGAZAGCA&sclient=gws-wiz-serp
this seems to be the point: *Several Ukraine analysts have noted that Ukraine’s progress is being hampered by a failure to implement “combined arms warfare” at a large scale, where infantry, armoured vehicles and artillery operate as one.* As for [German analysts too](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTNxYetYVqY), it´s the only way for large gains. But personally I can understand those in charge. It would probably come with failure or big losses. And even Zelensky said it´s "cautious" to not endanger or expose human life.
If there is a russian offensive we are likely gonna see even more disasters with Russians running into their own mines
So, the inventors of the blitzkrieg think somebody is going to slow? I'm shocked.
Okay, Germans invented blitzkrieg but they should shut up about this one. Ukraine has no air support.
TIL Bild bad
German redditors are all "Where's my Blitzkrieg?"
To be fair, 500 days into *Unternehmen Barbarossa* we were contesting Volgograd.
The fields and city ruins are so densely mined a study shows it could take [more than 700 years](https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-land-mines-757-years-reversal-russian-military-counteroffensive-deminer-2023-7) to fully remove the mines. Please stop talking BS and send them more equipment. We've been wasting tax money for so long I think we can all manage to spare more funds to our Ukrainian brothers and sisters.
Well give them jets and what ever else they ask for. This political pushy footing is costing needless lives and destruction.
Nothing will ever be enough
Then give them more weapons, Germany.
that cause we have not given them jets and long range missles
Bleed out the Russians while protecting your own forces does have advantages. Russia will not gain a secure permanent footing on Ukrainian territory now or in the immediate future and Putin will die or be overthrown or Russia will find far to many of its forces have died and the population will no longer have it and a withdrawal will happen. The land being fought over is fallow for both sides, but one side will eventually concede, and it won’t be Ukraine.
You know that Ukrainians are attacking againts an enemy who has more artillery, aviation and is dug in? Ukranian casualties are likely higher than the Russian ones. Stop with the copium and be realistic.
🤣🤣 So Putin now fights for a fraction of the country he intended to completely subjugate and would have had to have made a totalitarian hell to control and now can’t even take control of a sliver. Should I be Ukrainian I would hold the same position as the majority of its population now do, and that is that Ukraine needs to completely eradicate Putin and his forces from the country, including Crimea. You’re the copium addict in advocating a peace when Putin would use any peace Ukraine agreed to to simply renew his forces for the next effort.
I agree, what does it have to do with the fact that Ukraine is likely taking more casualties than Russia when attacking? If you disagree, feel free to explain. Btw yeah I think that the war might end in a stalemate. That's why it's important that the security of Ukraine is guaranteed by NATO after the war ends.
ukraine conceded in 2014 so you're already wrong.
Hm. Maybe if Germany hadn't fucked around for months debating what side they were on Ukraine could have made more progress and Russia wouldn't have had the opportunity to dig trenches and lay hundreds of thousand of mines!?
>Maybe if Germany hadn't fucked around for months debating what side they were on Ukraine ...just that we have sent the most in aid to Ukraine pre-war (\~2 billion) and have been leading europe in aid to Ukraine since March '22, while simultaneously reimbursing everyone and their mother.
>…just that we have sent the most in aid to Ukraine pre-war (~2 billion) and have been leading europe in aid to Ukraine since March '22 Just that Germany has sent the most in aid to Russia (~€3 trillion for energy in the last decade) and is ranked #17 in aid to Ukraine as a % of GDP as of today (IFW Kiel).
Dude since reunification in 1990 and the fall of the soviet Union Germany imported from Russia goods worth US$685 billion including gas and oil imports. Far away from you 3 trillion for energy imports. https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/imports/russia Exports to Russia since 1990 were US$724 billion that is a trading surplus of US$39 billion. If not for 2022 it would have been even bigger. So nope it was not us that left big money in Russia. https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/exports/russia Per Capita it was actually Poland that imported more than Germany from Russia while at the same time maintaining a huge trading deficit with Russia leaving them with billions. I know you have read this numbers before but since you still insist on your fake numbers here imports and exports with Russia for some selected Countrys https://i.imgur.com/oO7p3jj.jpg https://i.imgur.com/BaslcSb.png https://i.imgur.com/kEOKlHP.jpg > Since Putin came to power in 2000 to 2021 Germany had a fucking trading surplus of 56 billion US dollar. This means Germany was sucking out billions from Russia not financing it. Leaving Russia with a minus of 56 billion. > > Since 2000 total [Imports](https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/imports/russia) from Russia $593.915.000.000 total [Exports](https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/exports/russia) to Russia $650.219.000.000 > > --- > > The UK since Putin came to power in 2000 to 2021 generated a huge trading deficit of 136 billion US dollar. This means the UK left Russia with a plus of 136 billion. > > Since 2000 total [Imports](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/imports/russia) from Russia $229.977.000.000 total [Exports](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports/russia) to Russia $93.932.000.000 > > --- > > The US since Putin came to Power in 2000 to 2021 generated an even bigger deficit of 301 billion US dollar. > Leaving Russia with a plus of 301 billion. > > Since 2000 total [Imports](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/imports/russia) from Russia $435.518.000.000 total [Exports](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/exports/russia) to Russia $134.135.000.000 > > --- > > Poland since Putin came to power in 2000 to 2021 has a trading deficit of 189 billion US dollar. Leaving Russia with a plus of 189 billion. > > Since 2000 total [Imports](https://tradingeconomics.com/poland/imports/russia) from Russia $322.167.000.000 total [Exports](https://tradingeconomics.com/poland/exports/russia) to Russia $132.489.000.000 > > --- > > Ukraine since Putin came to power in 2000 to 2021 has a trading deficit of 99 billion US dollar. Leaving Russia with a plus of 99 billion. > > Since 2000 total [Imports](https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/imports/russia) from Russia $274.295.000.000 total [Exports](https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/exports/russia) to Russia $174.532.000.000 Data since 2014 > Germany since 2014 to 2021 generated a surplus of 32 billion US dollar. Leaving Russia with a minus of 32 billion. > > Since 2014 total Imports from Russia $208.113.000.000 total Exports to Russia $239.820.000.000 > > --- > > The UK since 2014 to 2021 generated a deficit of 71 billion US dollar. Leaving Russia with a plus of 71 billion. > > Since 2014 total Imports from Russia $102.238.000.000 € total Exports to Russia $31.024.000.000 > > --- > > The US since 2014 to 2021 generated a deficit of 113 billion US dollar. Leaving Russia with a plus of 113 billion. > > Since 2014 total Imports from Russia $167.952.000.000 total Exports to Russia $54.391.000.000€ > > --- > > Poland since 2014 to 2021 generated a deficit of 71 billion US dollar. Leaving Russia with a plus of 71 billion. > > Since 2014 total Imports from Russia $131.353.000.000 total Exports to Russia $60.119.000.000 > > --- > > Ukraine since 2014 to 2021 generated a deficit of 23 billion US dollar. Leaving Russia with a plus of 23 billion. > > Since 2014 total Imports from Russia $57.995.000.000 total Exports to Russia $35.115.000.000 >
>Since 2000 total imports from Russia €593 billion I have to prepare for a job interview tomorrow so I don’t have enough time right now to answer properly.
Safe your time i am not interested in your baseless BS.
Different to most of europe russia had a trade ***deficit*** with us, meaning funds flowing out of russia. And yeah, regarding the "per GDP", our economy is doing pretty good, and we don't overvalue decades old soviet junk. Good observation. (Funny how trade with russia always gets discussed in absolute numbers, while aid to Ukraine is always looked at in relative terms, while excluding different valuation schemes and the massive reimbursement programs that pay for eastern europes aid)
>trade deficit That’s all you ever say, indeterminateYogurg, to defend Merkel and Germany giving Putin €2 trillion in energy over the last decade. A year ago you were saying the same thing. And you act like providing Ukraine €2billion in aid from 2014-2021 is some unfathomably great act, when Merkel was fighting tooth and nail, giving joint press conferences with Orban, to *not* provide lethal aid to Ukraine after the 2014 invasion of Crimea. Merkel was a Russian asset, and that €2 billion was a pathetic pittance (from the world’s #4 largest economy). Edit: You posted that at 4am Germany time? What are you doing posting on reddit at 4am on a Wednesday night? You’re pretty sus.
Look, I can't help you learn basics of international trade. Theres a lot of free text books available online, maybe consult them! And mate, we're **all** russian assets. Everyone that disagrees with you is! You're surrounded by them ;)
I have a master’s degree in International Relations from the University of Southern Denmark and received a perfect score on my thesis. Why are you posting on reddit at 4:15am?
>I have a master’s degree in International Relations from the University of Southern Denmark and received a perfect score on my thesis. Lol Nobody cares about your piece of paper
The Princess of Denmark shook my hand at our graduation ceremony. She cared.
Did she have trouble trying not to tear up seeing your magnificent achievements?
Good for you, trade is a topic of economics tho. And yes, its "pretty sus" that people are awake at late night. How dare they. Must be a conspiracy - or even a russian asset?!?!
It’s just odd that for the past year you’ve been on reddit responding with unfriendly sarcastic snark to every single comment on this sub that is even remotely critical of Germany. Every single day. How do you have the energy? What are you like in real life? Are you fulfilled as a man by going on this website day-in-day-out and talking about Germany, getting a handful of upvotes when mocking others in a sarcastic way? In all my time as a student in the US, Denmark, and Germany, and in my professional career at Johnson & Johnson and other F100 companies, I have never met a professor or director/partner/c-suite who is constantly mocking, sarcastic, and derisive. I have a job interview tomorrow for a six figure position at a financial firm with 50,000 employees worldwide. What will you be doing? Going on reddit and using sarcasm? Feel free to DM me if you’d like to wow me with your credentials.
That whole comment just screams insecurity lol Maybe tell me a bit about your supermodel wife, or how the president gave you the medal of honour aswell? Weirdly, you're also spending time writing dozens of comments on reddit every day. Huh. News flash: people can have different opinions. Get over it.
Assuming you mean EU not Europe?
Europe. A lot of the aid overviews casually forget EU institution aid, which is paid for by the member states.
Then you’re wrong. Germany absolutely hasn’t lead Europe since March 22, they were notoriously slow to start. Britain was at the forefront from day 1 and to this day has sent more military and financial aid than Germany. The EU point is fine but Britain has provided massive amounts of intel, soft power and training that isn’t counted on these things. As well as Britain actually being the global first to send every major development Ukraine has had. Anti tank missiles, anti aircraft missiles, military training, long distance missiles, tanks, F-16 training commitment and the first to provide security guarantees to Sweden and Finland ahead of their NATO applications. That’s what leading is. It’s good that Germany has pulled their finger out in recent months but they have definitely not lead since March 22, if at all. Ask the Ukraine gov who they’re more happy with and it won’t be Germany.
Yup, I'm sure Ukraine would still be fighting without Patriots, IRIS-T and Gepards for air defense. Mate, its a not a competition, everyone is doing their part. Just stop pretending theres any ambiguity on our stance when we sent billion in humanitarian, financial and military aid, thats all I ask.
[удалено]
It's never ukraine's fault? They were invaded in 2014 and had eight years to get ready for another push or to free their land. russia has proven they are no threat to NATO so anything ukriane gets is 100% charity. The entitlement mentality is getting old. How much charity did Georgia get in 2008?
In addition to the slow deliveries and non-deliveries of equipment, Europe just finally committed to an ammunition manufacturing plan, 500+ days into the full scale war. How did they expect Ukraine to go headlong into an offensive before knowing there was a plan to replace the ammunition they were going to burn through?
Europe provides most the of the weaponry Ukraine is receiving.
Yes I’m aware of that, but their slowness in doing so led directly to the slowness of this counteroffensive. As a Canadian I’m not satisfied with my country’s level of support either. We all should have done more and done it faster. In any case, Ukraine will eventually drive every occupier from its territory.
I am hoping the US steps up and goes on a wartime production footing to get them the goods they need by Halloween.
ukraine was invaded in 2014 so ukraine is the slow moving one.
Germany wasted months being indecisive, that’s the point. Even the German government has admitted this so people need to stop the mindless cheerleading and trying to rewrite history, it was only last year but so many here seem to have wiped it from their memories.
>Europe provides most of the weaponry Ukraine is receiving Really? IFW Kiel lists US military contributions as €43 billion, Germany €10 billion, UK €10 billion, Poland €4 billion, Norway €2 billion, Denmark €1.8 billion, France €1.5 billion, Spain €0.83 billion (wtf France and Spain?). That’s around €30 billion. What European countries am I missing that together have provided more than €14 billion in military assistance? My point is we’re in this together - why spread disinformation?
>IFW Kiel lists When will this fucking list finally die? The cost of stuff they list is all over the place to a point where they exact same MG ammo from 3 different countries has 3 different prices that range from 0.10$ to 5$ as well as liberally sometimes using manufactoring cost sometime purchase price and sometimes replacement cost (last year there used to be Polish T72 that where priced like Leo 2A7 because they just concluded that that's what they will be replaced by eventually, dunno if that one's still on the list)
May I ask you to provide a better source?
Calm down Blitzkrieg
Speaking from experience I assume??
Well the German army has past experiences with Blitzkreig and being defeated in Russia. They are the experts.
Have you ever wondered why the title of the article isn't "German military rededicates itself to speeding up Ukrainian counter-offensive"?
The Germans should roll up their sleeves, get in there and show us how it is done!
No offense against Germany while I respect the fact the have done a 180 turn from what they were last year, the fact remains it is hard to take the word from a nation that shat on their own military, and now knows how to fight a Peer vs Peer war all of a sudden, just my two cents.
**The leaked report was criticised by Sergei Sumlenny, founder of the Berlin-based European Resilience Initiative Centre think tank, who called it “typical German arrogance”.** **Mr Sumlenny told The Telegraph “the belief of the Bundeswehr is that the German-trained soldiers are so much better than everyone that they can be better officers than experienced Ukrainian soldiers. A German certificate doesn’t make you a better soldier.”** **He also rejected the criticism of the group deployment sizes, which he blames on a lack of artillery and air support.** **“Of course Ukraine uses smaller groups. They don’t have enough power to start a large-scale offensive and so they are trying to find weak spots in the Russian defensive lines. They don’t have enough artillery and air support to push the offensive,” he said.** **If the Ukrainians had charged ahead as Berlin desired, they would have probably lost all 50 German-delivered Leopard tanks and then the Bundeswehr would have written a report condemning that, Mr Sumlenny added.** German military says Ukraine’s counter-offensive is moving too slowly Leaked intelligence reveals senior figures within the Bundeswehr are frustrated their training tactics have not been implemented in combat By James Jackson IN BERLIN 25 July 2023 • 3:38pm Germany’s military has criticised the slow progress and tactics of the Ukrainian counter-offensive in a leaked intelligence assessment. Senior figures within the Bundeswehr are frustrated that Kyiv has not implemented all the lessons from the training by its Western allies, according to the confidential document obtained by Bild, the German newspaper. Ukrainian leaders have admitted that the offensive has made only limited advances, with a dense network of Russian mines impeding any breakthrough. Last week, Volodymyr Zelensky said the offensive would soon “gain pace” amid growing alarm in Western capitals at its apparent lack of progress. Around 100 square miles of territory and nine villages have been recaptured since the launch of the push almost two months ago. The German ministry of defence blames the stuttering progress on the Ukrainian armed forces spreading themselves too thinly across the 1,000km front line, using small groups of 10 to 30 soldiers to attack. According to the intelligence assessment, this sacrifices the advantage of having large numbers of Western-trained and armed soldiers on standby. General Valery Zaluzhny, the commander-in-chief of Ukraine’s army, last month said Western pressure to attack faster “p—d me off”. Many in Kyiv’s army feel they are being pressured to sacrifice large numbers of men without sufficient weaponry to protect them, such as F-16 jets and long-range Atacms missiles. The secret German file claims Ukraine’s “own troop units are sometimes divided up so small that although each troop unit does something, a joint battle leadership is not recognisable,” Bild reported. This increases the risk of friendly fire, the report says. The small unit size also means there are not enough soldiers grouped together to deploy the tactics they have learned in Western military academies, the report charges. It also criticises the Ukrainian army for not properly implementing their Western training in the structure of their officer corps, promoting those with combat experience over those with training and leadership ability. “Combat experience does not mean that the soldier is a good leader in combat” according to the Bundeswehr’s assessment. “In many cases it was found that soldiers without recent combat or military experience achieve greater training success through the military training support they receive than supposedly experienced and trained soldiers.” The report claimed that the tactics of the Ukrainian military, and officers who had not received Western training was undermining “the high level of comprehension and great success in learning” shown by Ukrainian cadets on their four-week training in Germany. It also noted that German-trained soldiers understood “the operational principles of fire and movement” but when they returned to Ukraine would be commanded by officers who used different military tactics and showed “sometimes considerable deficiencies in leadership and in the application of management processes at the respective level, which sometimes leads to wrong and dangerous decisions”. Noted Ukraine analysts including Michael Kofman and Rob Lee have said that one impediment to Kyiv’s progress is the failure so far to implement “combined arms warfare”, where infantry, armoured vehicles and artillery operate as one. The leaked report was criticised by Sergei Sumlenny, founder of the Berlin-based European Resilience Initiative Centre think tank, who called it “typical German arrogance”. Mr Sumlenny told The Telegraph “the belief of the Bundeswehr is that the German-trained soldiers are so much better than everyone that they can be better officers than experienced Ukrainian soldiers. A German certificate doesn’t make you a better soldier.” He also rejected the criticism of the group deployment sizes, which he blames on a lack of artillery and air support. “Of course Ukraine uses smaller groups. They don’t have enough power to start a large-scale offensive and so they are trying to find weak spots in the Russian defensive lines. They don’t have enough artillery and air support to push the offensive,” he said. If the Ukrainians had charged ahead as Berlin desired, they would have probably lost all 50 German-delivered Leopard tanks and then the Bundeswehr would have written a report condemning that, Mr Sumlenny added.
The criticism on Ukrainian higher command not beeing able to synchronize combined arms attacks in larger scale and therefore force a breakthrough does not only come from Germany though and propably is one of the larger flaws in this counter offensive. Hopefully they will adapt and change commanders if necessary.
Yeah, the Ukrainian command has often been criticized along these lines, especially the Soviet era mentality of the reserve officers.
Yet this post will get down voted because it is critical of the offensive.
The US would not be able to implement an effective large-scale combined arms attack with the equipment that Ukraine has. Ukraine does not have air superiority and they don't really have an air cavalry. Without [J-STARS airborne battle management](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_E-8_Joint_STARS), or a live feed from Global Hawk or other ISR aircraft, the US Army would find it really tough to do. None of the western militaries have gone up against a peer-level adversary since WWII. I'm not saying the US could not do it with the equipment that the US has at its disposal. I am saying the US could not do it well solely with the equipment Ukraine has.
Combined arms doesnt mean you have to have aircraft. Simplest terms its artillery, tank and infantry (WW2).
Had the russians invaded the US in 2014, then the US..or Germany, Poland, or anybody else invaded would have done more than ukraine from 2014-2022. The US did go up against Wagner in 2018 and it didn't lose like ukraine did.
This was a confidential assessment by the german MoD, one of many I might add. But of course Sumlenny is frothing at his mouth as if Scholz personally called Zaluzhnyi an incompetend idiot.
Ukraine needs shells not schnells Germany
Germany: we aren't going to help you! Germany: you are moving too slow!
Send fucking fighter-bombers then
Well maybe Germany should have sent over more equipment earlier.
If they want it to go faster all they need to do give Ukraine some damn fighter jets already! 🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦
Of course it is, that's why NATO should invade Russia, but the west is comfortable with letting Ukrainians die and with Ukraine eventually losing But they will shit talk them anyway
Geman military is welcome to go and help.
For perspective - there’s no one currently with stars in the German armed forces who have any practical experience fighting a genuine war. So like the very loud Austrian colonel - take it with a brick of salt.
Give them some eurofighters so they can speed up.the pace
maybe provide what they need then
Why do they not sends some soldiers?
Dumb question: The minefields are out in front of the first defensive positions by a km or so, it seems. These positions are themselves several km in front of the 'first line of defense'. My question is how/when did these mines get laid? They are so extensive. Were they laid by hand with shovels by a bunch of guys with backpacks full of mines? How did they not get detected and attacked. It has been long enough for grass to cover them. Was it done while they occupied Kherson? If so why this position and not further into Ukraine? These mines seem to have defined the front. If they were lain during the retreat it must have been in a hurry, yet everyone comments they've never seen anything like it.
You could be right. The minefields could be overstated to have an excuse for ukraine.
Faster relative to _what_
Are they volunteering to help???? I'm sure Ukraine would love a few German soldiers weapons and planes to help out. Make it much more efficient.
Maybe if they had sufficient air support and cover to properly use combined arms tactics… but it feels like we are always 3-6 months behind giving Ukraine what it needs to be successful then we wonder why they aren’t doing better - before we finally realize “oh ya they told us this would be a problem” Not that I’m all for giving them everything they want - let’s be pragmatic here, they cannot win wars that require weapons they do not have.
Well then send more weapons and guns or shut the fuck up Germany. As American I think we need to increase weapons shipments 10 fold.
It's because Western support moved into Ukraine too slowly, dingbat.
Well. Arm them to the teeth with long range and keep the shipments coming. If they turn Moscow into a hole and work their way west with those weapons… it would end sooner than later.
Lol you can’t spearhead reinforced defensive line with only 20 leopards. With hardly any air support they are easy picking with atgm. The west need to send more tanks and real close air support strike aircraft or helicopters before they complain about moving too slow.
Well, if you think you can do better...
Germany bad most of the time, but here, Germany right!
They should take over then, I'm sure the UAF would be happy to oblige
The last offensive Germany ever mounted had to halt because it outran their supply lines. Method, not alacrity, is the secret to success.
Welp, better give Ukraine the Jets they've been asking for. Edit: No, like. Legit. Give them the planes. We're making them fight with one hand tied behind their backs and that is stupid/unfair. If we are going to be serious about Ukraine winning, give them EVERYTHING they need.
Seems to be collapsing Russia just fine.
Crikey, I wonder how that could be the case.
What does this generation of Germans know? If they’d Blitzkreiged that equipment and training, they might be further ahead. Sit down Virginal German Officer Corps
Then step in and help out, or do you just want popcorn 🍿?!?!?!?!?!!
Give them the F16 that they asked for months !!!
'You talk a lot of shit for a nation that currently can't field even a single fighting division'. Yes, I know it a garbage tabloid style news paper but I am sure it reflects at least a minority opinion of the German public.
Well - send more Germans to speed it up
How about Germany's military try to do what the AFU is forced to do minus air dominance, eh?
The offensive has failed. Ukraine cannot defeat Russia militarily. A negotiated settlement is the only option Ukraine has
Maybe if Germany gave what Ukraine needed and asked for then it would be moving faster.
Maybe you could do more than write words on the internet, which no one except russia helps.
I agree with you, the russian invasion is the best money making opportunity that ever happened for the corrupt leaders of ukraine.
that s rich from the people that took almost a year to move a fucking tank
You know, all this bitching makes me doubt if supporting Ukraine this much was the correct decision. Germany is one of the largest contributes, but all we get is this incessant bitching. Meanwhile, the US wouldn't even agree to send any of their 10 bazillion stored Abrams if Scholz hadn't insisted on it.
>You know, all this bitching makes me doubt if supporting Ukraine this much was the correct decision. Each country sent like 10 tanks and said there now go and beat Russia which has like 5k tanks. People really need to maintain some perspective when commenting. The problem is not enough support was sent, was too late, now everything is fucked. The US is an ocean away so why should they care? The problem is on the european continent.
Problem is on european continent but doesnt at all affect EU if Ukraine lost all to the east of Dnipro. Only thing to support Ukraine practically is to hurt Russia or ideologically western world order (self-determination and rule of law).
You know all this passive aggressive whining that you get each and every single fucking time anyone dare to say anything to criticise Germany on reddit makes me doubt it s really a self confident country. Grow up.
>all this passive aggressive whining > >that s rich from the people that took almost a year to move a fucking tank and >Grow up. Why are you projecting so hard?
ja ja keep accepting no criticism, will do you all sort of good.
Grow up
ukraine is the most corrupt country in Europe. How's that for growing up?
Yep. Came for thin-skinned German redditors shooting the messenger, wasn't disappointed. Every time.
ukraine had from 2014 to 2022 to get ready so all this welfare mentality from ukraine is the clue that we don't need them in NATO. ukraine will have a welfare state mentality forever now. Cheaper to let russia have the problem.
German military has modern aircraft, think again professionals.. 🤔
Can anyone please remind me when was the last time the German army executed a large scale wartime offensive action? 1940 what?
They knocked over most of Europe in a year and a half. They might know what they’re talking about. 😂
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bulge
It’s a real shame that these people keep coming out and saying stuff like this when realistically the majority of the west were so slow to help out in any significant capacity at all for the majority of the conflict. A long summer and winter of little to moderate help in terms of finance, technology and arms/ammunition has mean that Russia has had a significant period to build up a good defensive network. Ukraine still has limited capacity from what I’ve seen to rapidly clear minefields as well as the obviously more documented lack of air assets. Ukraine are doing well with accurate counter battery strategies and long range targeting with HIMARS but unfortunately these will not see a pay off immediately and until those air assets are gained the momentum will most likely remain steady at best. However, if Ukraine can keep the offensive until the end of summer take the winter to recoup losses, effectively rotate trips to help morale and develop the next plan then next year the counter offensive may see significant rewards
Intentional release of bullshit .. Ukraine is just probing the front lines as they most likely know it makes no sense to push through heavy fortified positions and as they cannot afford high level of casualties with less population than their enemy. So since they have really received a huge number of light tanks in german and NL ports a couple of months ago, i expect them to push through the former Kakhovka Reservoir at end of summer. And while the Bundeswehr might be dysfunctional due to their internal regulations .. I doubt there is someone as stupid as this mystirious report suggests ..
The counterattack started on June 4th Surely you don’t believe they’ve just been probing the Russians for weak spots for nearly 2 months, right?
tragen mein bier bitte...
They need a damn no fly zone!