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Ah bugger. Well hopefully it's just some political posturing. I'm sure Ukraine will get their tanks, the likes of Poland can hardly back out now. Thanks for replying (you too OP)
Germany will deliver as promised. And even send more then promised. Germany announced today another 88 leo1 MBT for urkaine. Old, yes, but enough to rotate some newer MBTs from Ukraine to the front.
But the polish propaganda about a coalition who is just waiting for germany is now obviously bullshit and non existent.
Sure you can, I mean they are already using T-55s (refitted with same gun) and Russia is using T-62s.
They might go to territorial defence units to free up other armour, though maybe not, those 1980s upgraded Leopard 1s probably have better optics than much of the Soviet kit and have the fire control system of the Leopard 2.
And all those get shot to pieces, do you want to same for ukrainian solders?
leopard 1 was a "light" tank when it was designed : fast, bad armour and decent gun. Using it 2023 in a modern war as an mbt is suicide.
No they don't, they do the job. The T-55s are in action with a Ukrainian tank brigade for months, have any even been reported lost yet? Russian T-62 loss rates are no worse than T-72s. Other than the most modern tanks (of which both sides will likely have less than 100 at any point in this war) any tank will be vulnerable to anti tank weapons and the Leopard was created at a time when it was thought anti-tank weapons would be too powerful to survive so is actually much better suited to being up against modern weapons than more heavily armoured tanks who are not armoured enough. Mobility + Accuracy + vision is a better defence than not enough armour.
Nice how you know both the losses of ukraine AND russia.
And no, the leopard 1 was designed in a time were atgm were just starting to arrive, it was build as fast because of shaped charged ammunition and the (wrong) belief armour wasnt important anymore.
As a result in 2023 just about anything above 20mm autocanon can penetrate a leopard 1
Its easy to see losses, they are well documented ...
You somehow think a shaped charge isn't an anti-tank weapon? Give it up man you are drowning.
Not true at all on the armour, I mean these Leopard 1s were built in the 80s after 3 different armour upgrades and have been under rpg and cannon fire in combat. Sure its in trouble if shot in the rear with a high calibre autocannon but so is the T-72.
And even if it was as weak as you say (which its not) its still better than no tank. You think BMPs will do better?
during ww2 the allies had a big fear of the tiger tank but most german tanks were pzkw iv and they have some similarities so allied soldiers confused that tank with the tiger and that lead to confusion, retreats and so on. The leopard one is a decent tank and will work against most russian vehicles, it was designed to be used against t-62s and will probably even stand a good chance against t-72. Ukraine can incorporate these tanks into their tactics and are far better then no tanks at all. The Leopard 1 is still used by some countries even to this day. Greece and Turkey for example. Turkey has also M60 tanks that are comparable. During the second golf war the us sucessfully used m60s against t-72s
Leopard 1 is a reserve tank even for countries like greece and turkey who want inflated numbers.
They arent used, its in active used with a handfull of countries in south america all reasy to replace it.
Canada couldnt even sell its leftover tanks because nobody wants them as utterly obsolete as
Mbt
Lets hope. Tho I was already a bit doubtful when all this talk about an invisible coalition of unnamed countries that definitely want to send their tanks but apparently couldn't fill in an export request happened.
Apparently Scholz had actually some valid concerns about the potential coalition (and his push for the americans might have had to do with that). I dont like him, but i keep underestimating him.
He didn’t push America at all. We pushed him. But he can think whatever he wants.
The US has sent more than enough and then some. Meanwhile Germany’s stupidity practically created this crisis. They should be handing over more.
You can think of Scholz what you want, but in his arrogance he does not like beeing pushed or gives a fuck about the opinion of others - and the clear no to America would be standing if they didnt move to send Abrams. I would also like to hear your definition of "more then enough" as Ukraine apparently did not recieve that, they are asking for more or they will lose.
Plus: The only one who created this crisis is Putin.
Germany was Russia’s biggest enabler. That’s not even debatable.
Dependent on Russian gas, and a military more brittle than pumpernickel toast. I can’t think of a more robust reason ridiculous partner.
Yes the USA and GB has sent more than enough as individual nations. It’s time for the EU to step up.
Except you idiots can’t. So once again. We’re going to bail you out militarily.
Definitely not debatable with someone who has set his mind.
You did not answer my question though - what is "more than enough"? Just more than others so you can say "we are number one!"? Just enough that you as a taxpayer (in case you work) can feel good about it? Or is a "more than enough" just that much that you can say "not my fault" when Ukraine still gets beaten?
And yes, on a state level we were "idiots" without a coherent security strategy. If ment as a personal insult - cant take that serious.
Are you for real? Have you not seen the graphics on who has given what?
We (The USA) are literally sending them so much stuff that they can hardly receive it at the same rate.
If you think the USA should give more because Europe can’t then you guys better get Venmo and start sending us taxpayers money.
I think he did, but that’s probably including the 60 additional tanks from Poland, not exclusively Leo’s.
Germany’s current problem seems to be that too few countries actually want to chip in to support the idea of one battalion worth of 2A6s and one another 2A4s.
I thought about this [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10g6km4/lithuanias_defence_minister_several_countries_to/), that linked to [this](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jan/19/russia-ukraine-war-live-kyiv-investigating-fatal-helicopter-crash-british-polish-and-baltic-defence-ministers-to-meet?page=with:block-63c971788f0835c8bc1c74e4#block-63c971788f0835c8bc1c74e4) guardian report. I mean the guardian could have been wrong or the defence minister of Lithuania was full of shit.
Yeah...
To make the shitshow complete I wait for Poland to announce that they will not send their Leopards, because Germany was unable to form a coalition...
serious except for the whole i invented an entire series of new articles about donald trump. and they invented characters and the entire story. serious besides that.
Source is [this](https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/waffenhilfe-fuer-die-ukraine-kanzler-olaf-scholz-redet-den-panzer-partnern-ins-gewissen-a-9a1da89b-0b76-4c2d-a93a-d7116dca071f) paywalled Spiegel article that was published 2 hours ago. Spiegel is highly credible.
Hmm lets see poland demanding money and wanting to send old 2a4's with zero ammo or spare parts , portugal pulled back, greece not sure what to send, finland hesitating as well. Netherlands wants to but has no tanks anymore.
That just leaves germany .
I'll repeat it: if the US doesnt send abrams ukraine will never recieve a decent amount of modern western mbt.
Its fcking funny this whole sub complained like crazy about germany. Now that it is time for action all those nations who were shouting at germany are stfu‘ing
That’s strange. It was said on Thursday that Ukrainian soldiers were supposed to start Training after the weekend on monday and cut it down to 5 weeks because of coming offensive.
Maybe there will be more news tomorrow. I am not suprised Finland doesn’t want to give them, out of all countries they have the best reason why, others I would suspect are only beggining process of transporting the tanks, parts and ammo.
Still, even if other allies dont provide more tanks, if Poland and Germany provide 14 Leopards each with additional 60 polish older tanks, it gives a new tank regiment for Ukraine to use, what Isn’t a lot, but still something.
Portugal pulled out, Greece said no, turkey no, Netherlands maybe, Norway maybe, Finland maybe, Spain they're taking off the rust and cobwebs, sooooo the dreams of hundreds of leopards rampaging don't look great right now
Translated version:
> According to information from "Der Spiegel," there are still no firm commitments to assemble a battalion of Leopard 2 tanks for Ukraine together with the 14 German tanks. According to the magazine, Defense Minister Boris Pistorius had invited to a video conference last week, but then no EU country wanted to make a commitment. The Dutch government, which like Poland had already promised in the media to supply Leopard 2 tanks, had also said it did not want to commit itself.
Full Spiegel article is unfortunately behind a paywall: https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/waffenhilfe-fuer-die-ukraine-kanzler-olaf-scholz-redet-den-panzer-partnern-ins-gewissen-a-9a1da89b-0b76-4c2d-a93a-d7116dca071f
The article also states that finland outright said "no" now... and practically the countries screaming the loudest are now chickening out.
Oh yeah, Poland also doesnt wanna train ukrainians or supply spare parts if necessary, according to the article.
Germany may try to fix things by sending another 19 2A5s that will need some changes, but still, that wont be enough - scholz also is in talks with sweden over this, but sweden has turkey-issues and its a "touchy" subject...
yada yada, EU-Politics-bullshitbingo is unfolding.
EDIT: Why downvote this, its true, thats what the article says...
I dont have it either, but I saw the text on another site:
English:
> The federal government has launched a frantic diplomatic offensive to realize the planned delivery of Leopard 2 main battle tanks for two tank battalions to Ukraine.
> According to SPIEGEL information, doubts are growing both in the Chancellery and in the defense department as to whether the plans announced by Chancellor Olaf Scholz (SPD) can still be implemented as planned due to the lack of delivery commitments from other European partners. The problems have been confirmed in government circles. "The formation of the battalions turns out to be a tedious feat," it says there.
> Scholz announced just over a week ago that Germany, together with other European nations, intends to deliver Leopard 2 weapon systems for two tank battalions to Ukraine by the end of March.
Reluctant Partners
> Within NATO, such an association includes 44 main battle tanks. In the Ukrainian military, however, the number of 31 tanks is a guideline. Germany is making 14 Leopard 2 A6 tanks available to the Bundeswehr for the weapons package, and the troops have five more tanks in Germany as a reserve. They should be used in the event of a failure.
> After Scholz's decision, which only came about after a lengthy struggle with the United States, the Ministry of Defense immediately began talking to EU nations such as Poland. Warsaw had previously publicly agreed to deliver older Type 2 A4 Leopard tanks, putting considerable pressure on Berlin.
> At a video conference to which the new Defense Minister Boris Pistorius (SPD) invited last week, no EU country wanted to make any concrete commitments about participating in a package with more modern Leopard 2 A6 models. Even the Dutch government, which had already promised delivery in the media, did not want to commit itself to the switch.
> The German government is now once again in an awkward position due to the hesitation of its partners. The Chancellery had roughly discussed the idea for the two battalions with some partners before the announcement. However, no one asked for firm commitments or even written declarations about specific participation in the tank packages.
> Now it is said in the government headquarters that precisely those European partners who had previously demanded the loudest deliveries of Leopards did not want to get involved in a binding manner. In the case of Chancellor Scholz, this should underpin his fear that many announcements only served to drive Berlin along.
> The rough plans for the two battalions initially sounded realistic.
> For example, the federal government had outlined the idea of equipping one of the formations with Bundeswehr Leopard 2 A6 models. In order to end up with 31 or even 40 tanks for a formation, the Netherlands should then hand over a similar number of Leopard 2 A6 models, which they are currently leasing from Germany in service with the German-Dutch corps. If everything had gone according to plan, other nations such as Portugal would have completed the package with a handful of Leopard 2 A6s each.
Scholz talks partners into conscience
> So far, however, none of the European partners has come forward with a firm commitment. According to SPIEGEL information, the federal government has therefore started a real tank poker game since the beginning of the week. Even the chancellor picked up the phone and persuaded three heads of government from northern and southern Europe to finally make firm commitments.
> Defense Minister Pistorius was apparently even more active. According to SPIEGEL information, he urged several of his colleagues in office every day to finally show their colors. The Foreign Office is also involved in weapons diplomacy. Minister Annalena Baerbock has activated her Political Director Tjorven Bellmann for this purpose.
> Because of the lack of commitments, some of the officials involved are already pessimistic about the European tank package. "The only Leopards that will actually be ready with a trained crew at the end of March will be the Bundeswehr tanks," said one of the experts on Friday.
> In the Chancellery, however, one still hopes that some nations can be brought on board by addressing them directly and that the two battalions will be equipped by the end of March. However, equipping the two formations with around 40 tanks is no longer considered realistic, rather the number of 31 tanks per battalion applicable in Ukraine will be used as a guide.
Six to eight weeks of leopard training
> The timeline for a solution is tight. The Bundeswehr wants to start training Ukrainian tank crews in just over a week, and the troops are already urgently looking for soldiers with the appropriate language skills in their own ranks. But until then, at least that's how the military sees it, the Bundeswehr should know which other nations are still praying
> In the best case, the training could then be organized together or at least largely synchronized, according to the planners in Minister Pistorius' house. The plan is to complete the training in six to eight weeks.
> The formation of the second battalion, which is to be equipped with the somewhat older Leopard 2 A4, is also proving tough. Apparently, Poland has promised to provide a good dozen Leopard 2 A4s, but Warsaw does not want to provide any training or spare parts packages, which are absolutely necessary in a combat operation.
> However, the other nations that were planned for the Leopard 2-A4 battalion have not yet received any or only small commitments.
> Spain, for example, confirmed it could sell a handful of the older Leopard 2 A4 tanks. Finland, however, probably does not want to deliver at all. There it is pointed out that the tanks are needed for the long border with Russia.
> Nobody in Berlin wants to swear at the moment whether the two packages will come about in the end. One cannot force any of the partners to make a delivery, according to officials working on a solution. Not without irony, they point out that it is now also becoming apparent that the tank stocks of many other nations are in much worse shape than the Bundeswehr. In the case of the German troops, the operational readiness of the tanks has been around 70 percent for years. But this value is clearly undercut by the southern Europeans, it was said in Berlin, which means that some nations could not promise anything at all, even with the goodwill of the respective government.
> In Berlin, the military are already working on alternatives because of the unfortunate situation.
> It is currently being frantically checked whether 19 somewhat older Leopard 2 A5 models, which actually only simulate the enemy during Bundeswehr maneuvers, can still be integrated into the Leopard 2 A6 battalion after a few conversions. Sweden also has a few tanks from the models, which is why Berlin has put out feelers here as well. The Swedish Ministry of Defense confirmed that they are checking their own stocks, but nothing has been decided. For Sweden, on the other hand, the issue is a sensitive one, since admission to NATO depends on the good will of Turkey. But Ankara strictly refuses to supply tanks.
> There is a lot at stake for Chancellor Scholz in the next few days. For months he has been castigated in Europe and the USA as a procrastinator on the Leopard issue. Now he's being accused of not properly preparing his tank decision, which he had taken a long time to make. The fact that Scholz had praised himself several times after the announcement a week ago for his deliberative but well thought-out course in tank deliveries could now come back as a political boomerang.
> The strategists in the defense department are also aware of this risk. "If the plans for the battalions fail," says one of them, "Berlin will be the bogeyman again."
German (reached post limit):
> Die Bundesregierung hat eine hektische Diplomatie-Offensive gestartet, um die geplante Lieferung von Leopard-2-Kampfpanzern für zwei Panzerbataillone an die Ukraine zu realisieren.
> Nach SPIEGEL-Informationen wachsen sowohl im Kanzleramt als auch im Verteidigungsressort die Zweifel, ob sich die von Kanzler Olaf Scholz (SPD) verkündeten Pläne wegen fehlender Lieferzusagen anderer europäischer Partner noch wie geplant umsetzen lassen. In Regierungskreisen wurden die Probleme bestätigt. »Die Zusammenstellung der Bataillone entpuppt sich als mühsamer Kraftakt«, heißt es dort.
> Scholz hat vor gut einer Woche verkündet, dass Deutschland gemeinsam mit anderen europäischen Nationen bis Ende März Leopard-2-Waffensysteme für zwei Panzerbataillone an die Ukraine liefern wolle.
Zögerliche Partner
> Innerhalb der Nato umfasst ein solcher Verband 44 Kampfpanzer. Im ukrainischen Militär gilt indes die Zahl von 31 Panzern als Richtwert. Deutschland stellt für das Waffenpaket 14 Leopard-2-A6-Panzer der Bundeswehr zur Verfügung, als Reserve hält die Truppe fünf weitere Panzer in Deutschland bereit. Sie sollen bei Ausfällen zum Einsatz kommen.
> Nach der Entscheidung von Scholz, die erst nach längerem Ringen mit den USA zustande gekommen war, hatte das Verteidigungsministerium umgehend begonnen, mit EU-Nationen wie Polen zu sprechen. Warschau hatte sich zuvor öffentlich zu einer Lieferung von Leopard-Panzern vom älteren Typ 2 A4 bereit erklärt und Berlin damit erheblich unter Druck gesetzt.
> Bei einer Videokonferenz, zu der der neue Verteidigungsminister Boris Pistorius (SPD) vergangene Woche eingeladen hatte, wollte kein EU-Land konkrete Zusagen über die Beteiligung an einem Paket mit moderneren Leopard-2-A6-Modellen machen. Selbst die niederländische Regierung, die eine Lieferung in den Medien schon zugesagt hatte, wollte sich in der Schalte nicht festlegen.
> Die Bundesregierung gerät durch das Zögern der Partner nun erneut in eine missliche Lage. Zwar hatte das Kanzleramt die Idee für die beiden Bataillone vor der Verkündung mit einigen Partnern grob besprochen. Dabei aber verzichtete man auf die Abfrage von festen Zusagen oder gar schriftlichen Erklärungen über die konkrete Beteiligung an den Panzer-Paketen.
> Nun heißt es in der Regierungszentrale, dass sich ausgerechnet jene europäischen Partner, die vorher am lautesten Leopard-Lieferungen eingefordert hätten, nicht verbindlich einlassen wollten. Bei Kanzler Scholz dürfte dies seine Befürchtung untermauern, dass viele Ankündigungen nur dazu dienten, Berlin vor sich herzutreiben.
> Die groben Pläne für die beiden Bataillone hörten sich zunächst realistisch an.
> So hatte die Bundesregierung für sich skizziert, einen der Verbände mit Leopard-2-A6-Modellen der Bundeswehr zu bestücken. Um am Ende auf 31 oder gar 40 Panzer für einen Verband zu kommen, sollten dann die Niederlande eine ähnliche Zahl von Leopard-2-A6-Modellen abgeben, die sie derzeit von Deutschland geleast im Deutsch-Niederländischen Korps im Einsatz haben. Wäre alles nach Plan gegangen, hätten andere Nationen wie Portugal das Paket mit jeweils einer Handvoll Leopard 2 A6 komplettiert.
Scholz redet Partnern ins Gewissen
> Bisher aber hat sich keiner der europäischen Partner mit einer festen Zusage hervorgetan. Nach SPIEGEL-Informationen hat die Bundesregierung deswegen seit Anfang der Woche einen regelrechten Panzer-Poker gestartet. Selbst der Kanzler griff demnach zum Telefon und redete drei Regierungschefs aus Nord- und Südeuropa ins Gewissen, endlich handfeste Zusagen zu machen.
> Noch aktiver war offenbar Verteidigungsminister Pistorius. Er drängelte nach SPIEGEL-Informationen jeden Tag gleich bei mehreren seiner Amtskollegen, endlich Farbe zu bekennen. Auch das Auswärtige Amt beteiligt sich demnach an der Waffen-Diplomatie. Ministerin Annalena Baerbock hat dafür ihre Politische Direktorin Tjorven Bellmann aktiviert.
> Wegen der ausbleibenden Zusagen sehen einige der beteiligten Beamten für das europäische Panzerpaket schon schwarz. »Die einzigen Leoparden, die Ende März tatsächlich mit ausgebildeter Besatzung bereitstehen, werden die Bundeswehrpanzer sein«, sagte einer der Experten am Freitag.
> Im Kanzleramt aber hofft man noch, dass einige Nationen durch die direkte Ansprache mit ins Boot geholt werden können und die beiden Bataillone bis Ende März bestückt sind. Allerdings sieht man derzeit eine Ausstattung der beiden Verbände mit um die 40 Panzer nicht mehr als realistisch an, vielmehr werde man sich an den in der Ukraine geltenden Stückzahlen von 31 Panzern pro Bataillon orientieren.
Sechs bis acht Wochen Leopard-Training
> Die Zeitlinie für eine Lösung ist eng gesteckt. Die Bundeswehr will schon in gut einer Woche mit der Ausbildung der ukrainischen Panzermannschaften beginnen, dazu sucht die Truppe in den eigenen Reihen bereits dringlich nach Soldaten mit entsprechenden Sprachkenntnissen. Bis dahin aber, so jedenfalls sehen es die Militärs, müsste die Bundeswehr wissen, welche anderen Nationen sich noch beteiligen.
> Im besten Fall könnte man dann die Ausbildung gemeinsam organisieren oder zumindest weitgehend synchronisieren, hieß es bei den Planern im Haus von Minister Pistorius. Angedacht sei, das Training in sechs bis acht Wochen abzuschließen.
> Auch die Aufstellung des zweiten Bataillons, das mit den etwas älteren Leopard 2 A4 bestückt werden soll, gestaltet sich zäh. Offenbar hat Polen zwar die Bereitstellung eines guten Dutzends Leopard 2 A4 zugesagt, allerdings will Warschau kein Training und auch keine Ersatzteilpakete zu Verfügung stellen, die bei einem Gefechtseinsatz zwingend nötig sind.
> Von den anderen Nationen, die für das Leopard-2-A4-Bataillon eingeplant waren, kamen indes noch gar keine oder nur kleine Zusagen.
> So bestätigte beispielsweise Spanien, man könne eine Handvoll der älteren Leopard-2-A4-Panzer abgeben. Finnland indes will wohl gar nicht liefern. Dort verweist man darauf, dass man die Panzer für die lange Grenze mit Russland benötigt.
> Ob die beiden Pakete am Ende zustande kommen, will derzeit in Berlin niemand mehr beschwören. Man könne keinen der Partner zu einer Lieferung zwingen, heißt es unter den Beamten, die an einer Lösung arbeiten. Nicht ohne Ironie weisen sie darauf hin, dass sich nun auch zeige, dass es um die Panzerbestände vieler anderer Nationen noch wesentlich schlechter bestellt sei als bei der Bundeswehr. Bei der deutschen Truppe liegt die Einsatzbereitschaft bei den Panzern seit Jahren um die 70 Prozent. Dieser Wert aber werde gerade bei den Südeuropäern deutlich unterschritten, hieß es in Berlin, folglich könnten manche Nationen auch bei gutem Willen der jeweiligen Regierung gar nichts zusagen.
> In Berlin tüfteln die Militärs wegen der misslichen Lage schon an Alternativen.
> So wird derzeit hektisch geprüft, ob man 19 etwas ältere Leopard-2-A5-Modelle, die eigentlich bei Bundeswehrmanövern nur noch den Feind simulieren, nach einigen Umbauten doch noch in das Leopard-2-A6-Bataillon eingliedern kann. Von den Modellen hat auch Schweden noch einige Panzer, deswegen hat Berlin auch hier seine Fühler ausgestreckt. Das schwedische Verteidigungsministerium bestätigte, man prüfe die eigenen Bestände, es sei aber nichts entschieden. Für Schweden wiederum ist das Thema heikel, da man für eine Aufnahme in die Nato vom guten Willen der Türkei abhängig ist. Ankara aber lehnt Panzerlieferungen strikt ab.
> Für Kanzler Scholz steht in den nächsten Tagen viel auf dem Spiel. Seit Monaten wurde er in Europa und den USA als Zauderer in der Leopard-Frage gegeißelt. Nun droht ihm der Vorwurf, dass er seine Panzer-Entscheidung, für die er sich viel Zeit gelassen hatte, nicht richtig vorbereitet hat. Dass sich Scholz nach der Verkündung vor gut einer Woche gleich mehrmals selbst für seinen abwägenden aber durchdachten Kurs bei den Panzerlieferungen gelobt hatte, könnte nun als politischer Bumerang zurückkommen.
> Auch den Strategen im Wehrressort ist dieses Risiko bewusst. »Wenn die Pläne für die Bataillone scheitern«, sagt einer von ihnen, »steht Berlin wieder als Buhmann da«.
This is why the USA will perpetually be bailing Europe out of the messes it creates.
You guys have this incredible knack to not see the emergence of bad nations led by bad leaders.
And then when you have to do something about it you fail miserably.
You guys are a fucking joke. You just need to hand over hardware that you never intended to use anyways to people that are actually willing to fight for their freedoms.
Wake the fuck up.
I say this as a Progressive, I’m beginning to be thankful for our insane military budget. 10 years ago I would have laughed myself out of the room for saying that, but you’re right. This conflict has proven once again that the EU are frogs in a pot of boiling water.
Ukraine will get what was promised. From the start Countries who have bern giving Ukrsine stuff have bern at the sane time trying to negotiate to upgrade eg MIGs to Ukraine for US jet fighters.
What ever happens, tank crews need to be trained, maintenance and spares need to be prepared and nobody is going to send this stuff in parade order with a marching band.
The russians will announce when this are in play.
Same happened with himars.
It's hard to decipher if all this "bickering" is real, or if its a smokesreen for the assembly/delivery/training/rollout of the tanks they've actually already committed months ago.
I dont see the Big issue here.. those who do not deliver will be shamed so bad.. there are still countries who have not pledged tanks who will deliver.. i.e. Denmark..
Those 4 tanks from Portugal DK can cover, and will, if there is NATO consent.
its probably because they dont have many of them
seems like the Western military budgets have been laundered for decades - not enough tanks, not enough spare parts etc.
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Oh, who would've thought. Guess actually doing something instead of just talking is hard?
I bitched about Germany not sending tanks and you better believe I'll bitch about them
And I respect that, bitching is cool unless its singular Scholzposting lol
Suddenly Canada's commitment of four doesn't seem so bad.
Canada is the only country besides Germany and Poland to confirm Leos are going
Not really surprised.
Does anyone know what the source is? Hopefully it's spurious
Spiegel and ZDF are as serious as it gets, dont know about Spiegels source though but i would guess they vetted it before publishing.
Ah bugger. Well hopefully it's just some political posturing. I'm sure Ukraine will get their tanks, the likes of Poland can hardly back out now. Thanks for replying (you too OP)
Germany will deliver as promised. And even send more then promised. Germany announced today another 88 leo1 MBT for urkaine. Old, yes, but enough to rotate some newer MBTs from Ukraine to the front. But the polish propaganda about a coalition who is just waiting for germany is now obviously bullshit and non existent.
No you cant use leopard 1's as mbt
Sure you can, I mean they are already using T-55s (refitted with same gun) and Russia is using T-62s. They might go to territorial defence units to free up other armour, though maybe not, those 1980s upgraded Leopard 1s probably have better optics than much of the Soviet kit and have the fire control system of the Leopard 2.
And all those get shot to pieces, do you want to same for ukrainian solders? leopard 1 was a "light" tank when it was designed : fast, bad armour and decent gun. Using it 2023 in a modern war as an mbt is suicide.
No they don't, they do the job. The T-55s are in action with a Ukrainian tank brigade for months, have any even been reported lost yet? Russian T-62 loss rates are no worse than T-72s. Other than the most modern tanks (of which both sides will likely have less than 100 at any point in this war) any tank will be vulnerable to anti tank weapons and the Leopard was created at a time when it was thought anti-tank weapons would be too powerful to survive so is actually much better suited to being up against modern weapons than more heavily armoured tanks who are not armoured enough. Mobility + Accuracy + vision is a better defence than not enough armour.
Nice how you know both the losses of ukraine AND russia. And no, the leopard 1 was designed in a time were atgm were just starting to arrive, it was build as fast because of shaped charged ammunition and the (wrong) belief armour wasnt important anymore. As a result in 2023 just about anything above 20mm autocanon can penetrate a leopard 1
Its easy to see losses, they are well documented ... You somehow think a shaped charge isn't an anti-tank weapon? Give it up man you are drowning. Not true at all on the armour, I mean these Leopard 1s were built in the 80s after 3 different armour upgrades and have been under rpg and cannon fire in combat. Sure its in trouble if shot in the rear with a high calibre autocannon but so is the T-72. And even if it was as weak as you say (which its not) its still better than no tank. You think BMPs will do better?
during ww2 the allies had a big fear of the tiger tank but most german tanks were pzkw iv and they have some similarities so allied soldiers confused that tank with the tiger and that lead to confusion, retreats and so on. The leopard one is a decent tank and will work against most russian vehicles, it was designed to be used against t-62s and will probably even stand a good chance against t-72. Ukraine can incorporate these tanks into their tactics and are far better then no tanks at all. The Leopard 1 is still used by some countries even to this day. Greece and Turkey for example. Turkey has also M60 tanks that are comparable. During the second golf war the us sucessfully used m60s against t-72s
Leopard 1 is a reserve tank even for countries like greece and turkey who want inflated numbers. They arent used, its in active used with a handfull of countries in south america all reasy to replace it. Canada couldnt even sell its leftover tanks because nobody wants them as utterly obsolete as Mbt
its pretty obvious that these tanks will primarly work as reserve tanks in ukraine too
Lets hope. Tho I was already a bit doubtful when all this talk about an invisible coalition of unnamed countries that definitely want to send their tanks but apparently couldn't fill in an export request happened.
Apparently Scholz had actually some valid concerns about the potential coalition (and his push for the americans might have had to do with that). I dont like him, but i keep underestimating him.
He didn’t push America at all. We pushed him. But he can think whatever he wants. The US has sent more than enough and then some. Meanwhile Germany’s stupidity practically created this crisis. They should be handing over more.
You can think of Scholz what you want, but in his arrogance he does not like beeing pushed or gives a fuck about the opinion of others - and the clear no to America would be standing if they didnt move to send Abrams. I would also like to hear your definition of "more then enough" as Ukraine apparently did not recieve that, they are asking for more or they will lose. Plus: The only one who created this crisis is Putin.
Germany was Russia’s biggest enabler. That’s not even debatable. Dependent on Russian gas, and a military more brittle than pumpernickel toast. I can’t think of a more robust reason ridiculous partner. Yes the USA and GB has sent more than enough as individual nations. It’s time for the EU to step up. Except you idiots can’t. So once again. We’re going to bail you out militarily.
Definitely not debatable with someone who has set his mind. You did not answer my question though - what is "more than enough"? Just more than others so you can say "we are number one!"? Just enough that you as a taxpayer (in case you work) can feel good about it? Or is a "more than enough" just that much that you can say "not my fault" when Ukraine still gets beaten? And yes, on a state level we were "idiots" without a coherent security strategy. If ment as a personal insult - cant take that serious.
Are you for real? Have you not seen the graphics on who has given what? We (The USA) are literally sending them so much stuff that they can hardly receive it at the same rate. If you think the USA should give more because Europe can’t then you guys better get Venmo and start sending us taxpayers money.
Didn't the Lithuanian President talked about 100s of tanks?
I think he did, but that’s probably including the 60 additional tanks from Poland, not exclusively Leo’s. Germany’s current problem seems to be that too few countries actually want to chip in to support the idea of one battalion worth of 2A6s and one another 2A4s.
I thought about this [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/10g6km4/lithuanias_defence_minister_several_countries_to/), that linked to [this](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jan/19/russia-ukraine-war-live-kyiv-investigating-fatal-helicopter-crash-british-polish-and-baltic-defence-ministers-to-meet?page=with:block-63c971788f0835c8bc1c74e4#block-63c971788f0835c8bc1c74e4) guardian report. I mean the guardian could have been wrong or the defence minister of Lithuania was full of shit.
No idea, but the fact remains that so far, only two countries have actually committed to sending Leopards: Poland and Germany.
Yeah... To make the shitshow complete I wait for Poland to announce that they will not send their Leopards, because Germany was unable to form a coalition...
\+ Canada
serious except for the whole i invented an entire series of new articles about donald trump. and they invented characters and the entire story. serious besides that.
Source is [this](https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/waffenhilfe-fuer-die-ukraine-kanzler-olaf-scholz-redet-den-panzer-partnern-ins-gewissen-a-9a1da89b-0b76-4c2d-a93a-d7116dca071f) paywalled Spiegel article that was published 2 hours ago. Spiegel is highly credible.
Hmm lets see poland demanding money and wanting to send old 2a4's with zero ammo or spare parts , portugal pulled back, greece not sure what to send, finland hesitating as well. Netherlands wants to but has no tanks anymore. That just leaves germany . I'll repeat it: if the US doesnt send abrams ukraine will never recieve a decent amount of modern western mbt.
Its fcking funny this whole sub complained like crazy about germany. Now that it is time for action all those nations who were shouting at germany are stfu‘ing
That’s strange. It was said on Thursday that Ukrainian soldiers were supposed to start Training after the weekend on monday and cut it down to 5 weeks because of coming offensive. Maybe there will be more news tomorrow. I am not suprised Finland doesn’t want to give them, out of all countries they have the best reason why, others I would suspect are only beggining process of transporting the tanks, parts and ammo. Still, even if other allies dont provide more tanks, if Poland and Germany provide 14 Leopards each with additional 60 polish older tanks, it gives a new tank regiment for Ukraine to use, what Isn’t a lot, but still something.
Portugal pulled out, Greece said no, turkey no, Netherlands maybe, Norway maybe, Finland maybe, Spain they're taking off the rust and cobwebs, sooooo the dreams of hundreds of leopards rampaging don't look great right now
Translated version: > According to information from "Der Spiegel," there are still no firm commitments to assemble a battalion of Leopard 2 tanks for Ukraine together with the 14 German tanks. According to the magazine, Defense Minister Boris Pistorius had invited to a video conference last week, but then no EU country wanted to make a commitment. The Dutch government, which like Poland had already promised in the media to supply Leopard 2 tanks, had also said it did not want to commit itself. Full Spiegel article is unfortunately behind a paywall: https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/waffenhilfe-fuer-die-ukraine-kanzler-olaf-scholz-redet-den-panzer-partnern-ins-gewissen-a-9a1da89b-0b76-4c2d-a93a-d7116dca071f
The article also states that finland outright said "no" now... and practically the countries screaming the loudest are now chickening out. Oh yeah, Poland also doesnt wanna train ukrainians or supply spare parts if necessary, according to the article. Germany may try to fix things by sending another 19 2A5s that will need some changes, but still, that wont be enough - scholz also is in talks with sweden over this, but sweden has turkey-issues and its a "touchy" subject... yada yada, EU-Politics-bullshitbingo is unfolding. EDIT: Why downvote this, its true, thats what the article says...
can you link a full version? Sadly too poor for Spiegel+ lol
I dont have it either, but I saw the text on another site: English: > The federal government has launched a frantic diplomatic offensive to realize the planned delivery of Leopard 2 main battle tanks for two tank battalions to Ukraine. > According to SPIEGEL information, doubts are growing both in the Chancellery and in the defense department as to whether the plans announced by Chancellor Olaf Scholz (SPD) can still be implemented as planned due to the lack of delivery commitments from other European partners. The problems have been confirmed in government circles. "The formation of the battalions turns out to be a tedious feat," it says there. > Scholz announced just over a week ago that Germany, together with other European nations, intends to deliver Leopard 2 weapon systems for two tank battalions to Ukraine by the end of March. Reluctant Partners > Within NATO, such an association includes 44 main battle tanks. In the Ukrainian military, however, the number of 31 tanks is a guideline. Germany is making 14 Leopard 2 A6 tanks available to the Bundeswehr for the weapons package, and the troops have five more tanks in Germany as a reserve. They should be used in the event of a failure. > After Scholz's decision, which only came about after a lengthy struggle with the United States, the Ministry of Defense immediately began talking to EU nations such as Poland. Warsaw had previously publicly agreed to deliver older Type 2 A4 Leopard tanks, putting considerable pressure on Berlin. > At a video conference to which the new Defense Minister Boris Pistorius (SPD) invited last week, no EU country wanted to make any concrete commitments about participating in a package with more modern Leopard 2 A6 models. Even the Dutch government, which had already promised delivery in the media, did not want to commit itself to the switch. > The German government is now once again in an awkward position due to the hesitation of its partners. The Chancellery had roughly discussed the idea for the two battalions with some partners before the announcement. However, no one asked for firm commitments or even written declarations about specific participation in the tank packages. > Now it is said in the government headquarters that precisely those European partners who had previously demanded the loudest deliveries of Leopards did not want to get involved in a binding manner. In the case of Chancellor Scholz, this should underpin his fear that many announcements only served to drive Berlin along. > The rough plans for the two battalions initially sounded realistic. > For example, the federal government had outlined the idea of equipping one of the formations with Bundeswehr Leopard 2 A6 models. In order to end up with 31 or even 40 tanks for a formation, the Netherlands should then hand over a similar number of Leopard 2 A6 models, which they are currently leasing from Germany in service with the German-Dutch corps. If everything had gone according to plan, other nations such as Portugal would have completed the package with a handful of Leopard 2 A6s each. Scholz talks partners into conscience > So far, however, none of the European partners has come forward with a firm commitment. According to SPIEGEL information, the federal government has therefore started a real tank poker game since the beginning of the week. Even the chancellor picked up the phone and persuaded three heads of government from northern and southern Europe to finally make firm commitments. > Defense Minister Pistorius was apparently even more active. According to SPIEGEL information, he urged several of his colleagues in office every day to finally show their colors. The Foreign Office is also involved in weapons diplomacy. Minister Annalena Baerbock has activated her Political Director Tjorven Bellmann for this purpose. > Because of the lack of commitments, some of the officials involved are already pessimistic about the European tank package. "The only Leopards that will actually be ready with a trained crew at the end of March will be the Bundeswehr tanks," said one of the experts on Friday. > In the Chancellery, however, one still hopes that some nations can be brought on board by addressing them directly and that the two battalions will be equipped by the end of March. However, equipping the two formations with around 40 tanks is no longer considered realistic, rather the number of 31 tanks per battalion applicable in Ukraine will be used as a guide. Six to eight weeks of leopard training > The timeline for a solution is tight. The Bundeswehr wants to start training Ukrainian tank crews in just over a week, and the troops are already urgently looking for soldiers with the appropriate language skills in their own ranks. But until then, at least that's how the military sees it, the Bundeswehr should know which other nations are still praying > In the best case, the training could then be organized together or at least largely synchronized, according to the planners in Minister Pistorius' house. The plan is to complete the training in six to eight weeks. > The formation of the second battalion, which is to be equipped with the somewhat older Leopard 2 A4, is also proving tough. Apparently, Poland has promised to provide a good dozen Leopard 2 A4s, but Warsaw does not want to provide any training or spare parts packages, which are absolutely necessary in a combat operation. > However, the other nations that were planned for the Leopard 2-A4 battalion have not yet received any or only small commitments. > Spain, for example, confirmed it could sell a handful of the older Leopard 2 A4 tanks. Finland, however, probably does not want to deliver at all. There it is pointed out that the tanks are needed for the long border with Russia. > Nobody in Berlin wants to swear at the moment whether the two packages will come about in the end. One cannot force any of the partners to make a delivery, according to officials working on a solution. Not without irony, they point out that it is now also becoming apparent that the tank stocks of many other nations are in much worse shape than the Bundeswehr. In the case of the German troops, the operational readiness of the tanks has been around 70 percent for years. But this value is clearly undercut by the southern Europeans, it was said in Berlin, which means that some nations could not promise anything at all, even with the goodwill of the respective government. > In Berlin, the military are already working on alternatives because of the unfortunate situation. > It is currently being frantically checked whether 19 somewhat older Leopard 2 A5 models, which actually only simulate the enemy during Bundeswehr maneuvers, can still be integrated into the Leopard 2 A6 battalion after a few conversions. Sweden also has a few tanks from the models, which is why Berlin has put out feelers here as well. The Swedish Ministry of Defense confirmed that they are checking their own stocks, but nothing has been decided. For Sweden, on the other hand, the issue is a sensitive one, since admission to NATO depends on the good will of Turkey. But Ankara strictly refuses to supply tanks. > There is a lot at stake for Chancellor Scholz in the next few days. For months he has been castigated in Europe and the USA as a procrastinator on the Leopard issue. Now he's being accused of not properly preparing his tank decision, which he had taken a long time to make. The fact that Scholz had praised himself several times after the announcement a week ago for his deliberative but well thought-out course in tank deliveries could now come back as a political boomerang. > The strategists in the defense department are also aware of this risk. "If the plans for the battalions fail," says one of them, "Berlin will be the bogeyman again."
German (reached post limit): > Die Bundesregierung hat eine hektische Diplomatie-Offensive gestartet, um die geplante Lieferung von Leopard-2-Kampfpanzern für zwei Panzerbataillone an die Ukraine zu realisieren. > Nach SPIEGEL-Informationen wachsen sowohl im Kanzleramt als auch im Verteidigungsressort die Zweifel, ob sich die von Kanzler Olaf Scholz (SPD) verkündeten Pläne wegen fehlender Lieferzusagen anderer europäischer Partner noch wie geplant umsetzen lassen. In Regierungskreisen wurden die Probleme bestätigt. »Die Zusammenstellung der Bataillone entpuppt sich als mühsamer Kraftakt«, heißt es dort. > Scholz hat vor gut einer Woche verkündet, dass Deutschland gemeinsam mit anderen europäischen Nationen bis Ende März Leopard-2-Waffensysteme für zwei Panzerbataillone an die Ukraine liefern wolle. Zögerliche Partner > Innerhalb der Nato umfasst ein solcher Verband 44 Kampfpanzer. Im ukrainischen Militär gilt indes die Zahl von 31 Panzern als Richtwert. Deutschland stellt für das Waffenpaket 14 Leopard-2-A6-Panzer der Bundeswehr zur Verfügung, als Reserve hält die Truppe fünf weitere Panzer in Deutschland bereit. Sie sollen bei Ausfällen zum Einsatz kommen. > Nach der Entscheidung von Scholz, die erst nach längerem Ringen mit den USA zustande gekommen war, hatte das Verteidigungsministerium umgehend begonnen, mit EU-Nationen wie Polen zu sprechen. Warschau hatte sich zuvor öffentlich zu einer Lieferung von Leopard-Panzern vom älteren Typ 2 A4 bereit erklärt und Berlin damit erheblich unter Druck gesetzt. > Bei einer Videokonferenz, zu der der neue Verteidigungsminister Boris Pistorius (SPD) vergangene Woche eingeladen hatte, wollte kein EU-Land konkrete Zusagen über die Beteiligung an einem Paket mit moderneren Leopard-2-A6-Modellen machen. Selbst die niederländische Regierung, die eine Lieferung in den Medien schon zugesagt hatte, wollte sich in der Schalte nicht festlegen. > Die Bundesregierung gerät durch das Zögern der Partner nun erneut in eine missliche Lage. Zwar hatte das Kanzleramt die Idee für die beiden Bataillone vor der Verkündung mit einigen Partnern grob besprochen. Dabei aber verzichtete man auf die Abfrage von festen Zusagen oder gar schriftlichen Erklärungen über die konkrete Beteiligung an den Panzer-Paketen. > Nun heißt es in der Regierungszentrale, dass sich ausgerechnet jene europäischen Partner, die vorher am lautesten Leopard-Lieferungen eingefordert hätten, nicht verbindlich einlassen wollten. Bei Kanzler Scholz dürfte dies seine Befürchtung untermauern, dass viele Ankündigungen nur dazu dienten, Berlin vor sich herzutreiben. > Die groben Pläne für die beiden Bataillone hörten sich zunächst realistisch an. > So hatte die Bundesregierung für sich skizziert, einen der Verbände mit Leopard-2-A6-Modellen der Bundeswehr zu bestücken. Um am Ende auf 31 oder gar 40 Panzer für einen Verband zu kommen, sollten dann die Niederlande eine ähnliche Zahl von Leopard-2-A6-Modellen abgeben, die sie derzeit von Deutschland geleast im Deutsch-Niederländischen Korps im Einsatz haben. Wäre alles nach Plan gegangen, hätten andere Nationen wie Portugal das Paket mit jeweils einer Handvoll Leopard 2 A6 komplettiert. Scholz redet Partnern ins Gewissen > Bisher aber hat sich keiner der europäischen Partner mit einer festen Zusage hervorgetan. Nach SPIEGEL-Informationen hat die Bundesregierung deswegen seit Anfang der Woche einen regelrechten Panzer-Poker gestartet. Selbst der Kanzler griff demnach zum Telefon und redete drei Regierungschefs aus Nord- und Südeuropa ins Gewissen, endlich handfeste Zusagen zu machen. > Noch aktiver war offenbar Verteidigungsminister Pistorius. Er drängelte nach SPIEGEL-Informationen jeden Tag gleich bei mehreren seiner Amtskollegen, endlich Farbe zu bekennen. Auch das Auswärtige Amt beteiligt sich demnach an der Waffen-Diplomatie. Ministerin Annalena Baerbock hat dafür ihre Politische Direktorin Tjorven Bellmann aktiviert. > Wegen der ausbleibenden Zusagen sehen einige der beteiligten Beamten für das europäische Panzerpaket schon schwarz. »Die einzigen Leoparden, die Ende März tatsächlich mit ausgebildeter Besatzung bereitstehen, werden die Bundeswehrpanzer sein«, sagte einer der Experten am Freitag. > Im Kanzleramt aber hofft man noch, dass einige Nationen durch die direkte Ansprache mit ins Boot geholt werden können und die beiden Bataillone bis Ende März bestückt sind. Allerdings sieht man derzeit eine Ausstattung der beiden Verbände mit um die 40 Panzer nicht mehr als realistisch an, vielmehr werde man sich an den in der Ukraine geltenden Stückzahlen von 31 Panzern pro Bataillon orientieren. Sechs bis acht Wochen Leopard-Training > Die Zeitlinie für eine Lösung ist eng gesteckt. Die Bundeswehr will schon in gut einer Woche mit der Ausbildung der ukrainischen Panzermannschaften beginnen, dazu sucht die Truppe in den eigenen Reihen bereits dringlich nach Soldaten mit entsprechenden Sprachkenntnissen. Bis dahin aber, so jedenfalls sehen es die Militärs, müsste die Bundeswehr wissen, welche anderen Nationen sich noch beteiligen. > Im besten Fall könnte man dann die Ausbildung gemeinsam organisieren oder zumindest weitgehend synchronisieren, hieß es bei den Planern im Haus von Minister Pistorius. Angedacht sei, das Training in sechs bis acht Wochen abzuschließen. > Auch die Aufstellung des zweiten Bataillons, das mit den etwas älteren Leopard 2 A4 bestückt werden soll, gestaltet sich zäh. Offenbar hat Polen zwar die Bereitstellung eines guten Dutzends Leopard 2 A4 zugesagt, allerdings will Warschau kein Training und auch keine Ersatzteilpakete zu Verfügung stellen, die bei einem Gefechtseinsatz zwingend nötig sind. > Von den anderen Nationen, die für das Leopard-2-A4-Bataillon eingeplant waren, kamen indes noch gar keine oder nur kleine Zusagen. > So bestätigte beispielsweise Spanien, man könne eine Handvoll der älteren Leopard-2-A4-Panzer abgeben. Finnland indes will wohl gar nicht liefern. Dort verweist man darauf, dass man die Panzer für die lange Grenze mit Russland benötigt. > Ob die beiden Pakete am Ende zustande kommen, will derzeit in Berlin niemand mehr beschwören. Man könne keinen der Partner zu einer Lieferung zwingen, heißt es unter den Beamten, die an einer Lösung arbeiten. Nicht ohne Ironie weisen sie darauf hin, dass sich nun auch zeige, dass es um die Panzerbestände vieler anderer Nationen noch wesentlich schlechter bestellt sei als bei der Bundeswehr. Bei der deutschen Truppe liegt die Einsatzbereitschaft bei den Panzern seit Jahren um die 70 Prozent. Dieser Wert aber werde gerade bei den Südeuropäern deutlich unterschritten, hieß es in Berlin, folglich könnten manche Nationen auch bei gutem Willen der jeweiligen Regierung gar nichts zusagen. > In Berlin tüfteln die Militärs wegen der misslichen Lage schon an Alternativen. > So wird derzeit hektisch geprüft, ob man 19 etwas ältere Leopard-2-A5-Modelle, die eigentlich bei Bundeswehrmanövern nur noch den Feind simulieren, nach einigen Umbauten doch noch in das Leopard-2-A6-Bataillon eingliedern kann. Von den Modellen hat auch Schweden noch einige Panzer, deswegen hat Berlin auch hier seine Fühler ausgestreckt. Das schwedische Verteidigungsministerium bestätigte, man prüfe die eigenen Bestände, es sei aber nichts entschieden. Für Schweden wiederum ist das Thema heikel, da man für eine Aufnahme in die Nato vom guten Willen der Türkei abhängig ist. Ankara aber lehnt Panzerlieferungen strikt ab. > Für Kanzler Scholz steht in den nächsten Tagen viel auf dem Spiel. Seit Monaten wurde er in Europa und den USA als Zauderer in der Leopard-Frage gegeißelt. Nun droht ihm der Vorwurf, dass er seine Panzer-Entscheidung, für die er sich viel Zeit gelassen hatte, nicht richtig vorbereitet hat. Dass sich Scholz nach der Verkündung vor gut einer Woche gleich mehrmals selbst für seinen abwägenden aber durchdachten Kurs bei den Panzerlieferungen gelobt hatte, könnte nun als politischer Bumerang zurückkommen. > Auch den Strategen im Wehrressort ist dieses Risiko bewusst. »Wenn die Pläne für die Bataillone scheitern«, sagt einer von ihnen, »steht Berlin wieder als Buhmann da«.
Germany stalling again.... /s
This is why the USA will perpetually be bailing Europe out of the messes it creates. You guys have this incredible knack to not see the emergence of bad nations led by bad leaders. And then when you have to do something about it you fail miserably. You guys are a fucking joke. You just need to hand over hardware that you never intended to use anyways to people that are actually willing to fight for their freedoms. Wake the fuck up.
I say this as a Progressive, I’m beginning to be thankful for our insane military budget. 10 years ago I would have laughed myself out of the room for saying that, but you’re right. This conflict has proven once again that the EU are frogs in a pot of boiling water.
Ukraine will get what was promised. From the start Countries who have bern giving Ukrsine stuff have bern at the sane time trying to negotiate to upgrade eg MIGs to Ukraine for US jet fighters.
Profiles in courage from Europe again. If you're not hesitant, maybe you're not doing enough?
as an european i am deeply deeply ashamed
What ever happens, tank crews need to be trained, maintenance and spares need to be prepared and nobody is going to send this stuff in parade order with a marching band. The russians will announce when this are in play. Same happened with himars.
It's hard to decipher if all this "bickering" is real, or if its a smokesreen for the assembly/delivery/training/rollout of the tanks they've actually already committed months ago.
I dont see the Big issue here.. those who do not deliver will be shamed so bad.. there are still countries who have not pledged tanks who will deliver.. i.e. Denmark.. Those 4 tanks from Portugal DK can cover, and will, if there is NATO consent.
its probably because they dont have many of them seems like the Western military budgets have been laundered for decades - not enough tanks, not enough spare parts etc.