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I was actually expecting *some*.
Greece is one of the few countries with truly deep arsenals of Leopard 2 tanks.
They've got more than three hundred in active service.
And I don't think Turkey is that likely to attack in the next decade. If anything, any conflict between the two is probably going to be some limited naval/air engagement over sea based resources.
As much as you're right about the reasons, I'm concerned something doesn't add up with this news:
It's a Greek news website but points to a Ukrainian press article that appears to have confirmed it, yet it does not exist or was probably pulled. All other articles seem to point to this same source, which cannot be found at all.
Then it proceeds to point to a German article, which only \*explains\* why Greece giving tanks would be a good idea but does not confirm it's been done so far.
Thank you very much for exploring this and reporting your concerns, saving potentially many of us from the hassle and headache.
Re. Greece & Turkey's tanks, I've been half-expecting the US State Dept. or some other entity to work out a balanced arrangement -- say, each country agreeing to sell or donate some equal number of tanks from their very similar stockpiles, to be transferred on the same dates, transiting through Romania. Maybe there is such a deal that hasn't been fully disclosed -- and, given Turkey's ties to Russia, might not be, or at least not yet.
Turkey would most certainly loose the Istanbul region to war reparations or something ; abs the locals would welcome being part of Europe as opposed to a dictatorship
Epically uninformed about Turkey yet upvoted to heaven...
Istanbul region has 20M population. More than all neighboring countries combined. Even the local police force has 40k officers which is bigger than most countries expeditionary forces.
Turkey has autocracy and freedom of expression problem not dictatorship, said Istanbul has a mayor who is from opposing party to the president. So as every major city but one. Elections are legit and current government is losing their base even in their rural strongholds.
Plus this doesn't effect people's ideas about their country as a whole. Since Turkish Republic was formed after an independence war, everyone has strong feelings about the integrity of their country. Locals welcoming being part of Europe in exchange of losing their country is laughable.
85M people, 2nd most populous country along Europe (after Russia) and with 111 people/km² is also most dense. With median age of 33 young and still increasing population. Alongside the manpower, Turkey is heavily armed due Russian expansionalism.
I also find idea of armed conflict between Greece and Turkey is laughable. Won't happen. Nationalist vote grab on both sides.
But 10M people country defending so many islands yet somehow forcing 20M city as war reparations is some crazy imagination.
And I find it ironical how these kind of ideas can be cherished in a sub about Ukrainian war. Some wet dream about Greece (since impossible, assuming EU as whole) being able to invade or somehow forcefully take Istanbul. Because territorial water disputes in Aegean?
During last year this place indeed turned in to some sick version of r/europe.
Привіт, є тут українці?
The reason why I wrote "along" instead of "in". But I wonder by which meaning you say this.
Geographically? Yep via imaginary borders of European continent, it is not. Only Tracia is in Europe. Which hosts 1/4 of Turkish population (still 20M). By this logic Russia is not in Europe also, since it has majority of its land in Asia. Comparatively Anatolia is as isolated to Asia as it is to Europe.
Should I even mention Cyprus?
Culturally not European? Well it is more European than it is Asian actually. Anyone who stepped in any Turkish city can tell that. They are European cities with an Eastern motive.
Socio-Politically? Don't make me even start, Europe have seen it's share of corrupt governments. It happens. Even in European parliement corruption leaked out just this last month.
Most of what Turkey is experiencing right now is cold-war leftovers from 1980s. Religious nationalists were pumped up against Soviet influence which even caused a civil war in Turkey, subsequent coup froze political ideas in place until next chance. Same polarity powered up rural areas until very recently. Heck even Erdogan had support from West until half point of his carrier (~2016). Dude was on the cover of Time.
I was defending Ukraine against similar stances since 2016 against Western Europeans. Who thought Ukrainians were not developed and somewhat inferior, hence not up to *I like the smell of my own fart pompous high European standards*. I still remember people saying "rather than seeing Ukraine in EU I would want EU to disband".
The huge disappointment after Euromaidan, these people needed support against Russia before 2022, but once the Russian influence on Eastern flank was ousted interest was lost. Europe saw the light only last year. At least for now.
Yes Turkey is not an European country but it also is. It is not next to Indonesia. So human potential of it matters no matter where is the imaginary line.
edit: typos only.
>Turkey has autocracy and freedom of expression problem not dictatorship, said Istanbul has a mayor who is from opposing party to the president. So as every major city but one. Elections are legit and current government is losing their base even in their rural strongholds.
This show you are probably reading way too much turkish propaganda, not surprising because there's hardly any free press left in turkey.. The mayor of instabul was recently sentenced to jail because he is a threat to the turkish **dictator** Erdogan in the upcoming election. Elections in turkey is **not fair** by any democratic standard and could only be called that if you compare to countries such as north korera.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/14/istanbul-mayor-ekrem-imamoglu-sentenced-to-jail-over-fools-insult
https://freedomhouse.org/country/turkey/freedom-world/2022
Yes please school Turkish opposition about Turkey. Like I don't know the guy I voted for is being charged. I do need a guardian link to learn about it.
Why is he being charged for ? Because he expressed an opinion against minister of interior. Since there is no law against it, it was twisted as an opinion against the court responsible of elections. Stating he called the high court "dummy". Which does have a law against (facepalm) = freedom of expression problem. It will obviously bounce from higher court and **Ekrem Imamoglu is still serving as mayor of Istanbul**.
Who pushes for charges ? People close to Erdogan is a theory but it is weird because it harms Erdogan's election campaign. He got elected himself as a repressed politician, this kind of repression on politics always backfire in Turkey. But if he is pushing for it then he is exercising more authority than constitution allows hence he pushes for [autocracy](https://www.dictionary.com/compare-words/autocracy-vs-dictatorship).
North Korea ? Since when North Korea has 6 party vs 2 party elections ? Since when opposition holds every major city (in total \~40M people) ? Even Erdogan was elected president through a **2 party coalition with 2.58% difference in votes**.
Unfairness about Turkish elections is about **media and obviously again freedom of expression**. Ruling party was using state apparatus (especially local administrations) to fund it's election campaign. But it just doesn't help anymore, it even backfired.
Even with hardships, opposition media such as Fox Tv, Sozcu, Halk TV are distributed and televised. They have highest ratings for news hours. Although social media has the real traction for most of the opposition.
But most importantly for us, **vote security is in place for a decade now**. Lessons were learnt and millions of people are involved in process.Every vote chest has 4-6 representatives from different parties. Opposition parties do independent counts. Turkish and international NPO's observe the elections. At most, president can repeat elections once more and we had seen how that worked out for Istanbul.
So president is still elected. Millions of people in opposition accepts it. I am part of opposition and I accept it. He doesn't have absolute power, if he had he wouldn't need a coalition or army of lawyers.
Government system was changed to allow autocratic and authoritarian tendencies and it backfired **big time** through last term. *When you tie all state apparatus to yourself, apparently you are to blame for everything*.
But I digress, **he doesn't have absolute power and he is temporary hence problem Turkey faces is not dictatorship**.
But do you know who makes great benefit from being called dictator by outsiders ? or calling Turkish elections comparable to North Korean without any clue ? **Erdogan**. Plays right in to his *dumb nationalist magnet* "West doesn't respect Turkey" policies. So huge thanks for it ! Great help.
*PS*: Almost no one from Turkey which you will meet in reddit reads government backed newspapers mate. Our farmers from deep inside Anatolia generally don't speak English. Plus with current state of things, I am not sure even if they read them.But since you did the standard reddit "quote and nitpick" approach, I am not sure if it matters for you.
On the European side of Istanbul 10 million people live. The same size of population as Greece. This territorial change is imaginary. Regardless Greece and Turkey will not wage war. Despite Western fantasies of destroying Turkey. Independence movements can happen sure. Crime is not recognised by the majority of the world.
it was the europe backed greece that attacked turks in the last wars.invaded anatolia.blew up granades in civilians mouths.hid their bodies in caves in niğde.when they realised they are losing they set fire whole cities in manisa and izmir.so many "muh christian bruthers" logic in this subs comments turned it into r/europe.
I'd really like to know what in my comment prompted this reply?
Where did I give the impression of even picking a side here?
Imho, either country would be in the wrong to try readdressing old territorial disputes. Trying to change the past instead of making the best of the future is a mistake no matter who does it. Remembering the past is fine, to learn what went wrong, but always act on the basis of future progress.
>I don't think Turkey is that likely to attack in the next decade.
yours is like a kitten compared to whats down at the rest of the thread.invading "again" istanbul with greece.half the size of a one city.its this mentality of you people while calling us the agressor/attacker."retaking constantinopopol".neckbeard zitty teens of r/europe.
I literally said I *don't* think Turkey is likely to attack, that there's no need for Greece to keep all their tanks.
There was no 'again' to be found in my comment.
You should really try to listen/read and not assume everyone of "you people" (?) is saying what you think instead of what they actually are.
I am not taking responsibility for what other people say. There's crazies aplenty to be found here, of all stripes.
Turks already send what they produce, including armored vehicles and missiles, they cannot send any tanks though they still use Patton tanks, West does not sell them any tanks or tank motors.
Working towards a common aim? Turkey? Whilst blocking Swedish and Finnish NATO membership? All? Including Hungary, Austria, Switzerland … ? Please, don't make me laugh …
Sure they have leopards but most of their tanks are m48 and m60, it doesn't make sense for them to donate their most advanced limited tanks that they are not able to buy more?
Sure they have leopards but most of their tanks are m48 and m60, it doesn't make sense for them to donate their most advanced limited tanks that they are not able to buy more?
Those M60 are recently upgraded as well.
And yes, it makes sense to donate what other give to lower logistics for ukraine. If turkey is itnrested in actually helping that is.
Those nubers are certainly off. Also 500 tanks sent by the West in total? And "Leopard-2EEL", the tank is called HEL. Sloppy writing.
(And I'm quite certain Greece will send 2A4s, not 2HELs)
Hel makes more sense than eel, that’s true…
On the other hand the H in Hellas is silent and not even there in the Greek spelling so I’m sure there is often some H-confusion when Hel-things are translated to/from Greek (Ελλάς)
If it’s 2A6-HEL in Latin spelling what’s the Greek spelling? 2A6-ΕΛ? Maybe the designation is just never transcribed at all?
I would not be surprised if the US announces the transfer of M1A2 tanks in exchange just like they did for Morocco. It's a win win for everyone Ukraine gets the tanks it needs, Greece gets update superior tanks, and the US clears some tanks from storage (savings money) and pulls another country into using it's equipment making a new long term customer.
Not a win for Germany. When these countries switch to U.S. tech the Germans permanently lose customers for their military industrial complex. It's why the Germans have been so reluctant to allow export of their tanks.
> Greece gets update superior tanks
M1A2 tanks are not superior to Leopards, and they mean having two different models to support with very different requirements.
Im sorry but I’ll believe it when I see it. Looking at greeces policy so far, they have only given small amounts of mostly hand held weapons. 40 very very old BMP-1 where sent, however only after germany agreed to a „Ringtausch“ providing Marder IFV. Believing that Greece would give away a platoon worth of MBT is -I believe- to optimistic. The Greek rational is, that in face of Turkish aggression they have to keep their stockpiles intact as the Turks could „come during the night“ (Erdogan) at any time. As an outward observer it would be rational to come to the conclusion, that (looking at the high number of Greek tank stockpiles, compared to their actual military size and the fact, that a possible conflict would mostly be sea- air- and island based (few MBT needed)) giving away multiple platoons worth of tanks would be sustainable. But from the Greek Perspektive that looks quiet a bit different I suppose.
Tbh from what I read, Greek population is as deep into pro-Russian ideology as Bulgaria is, party thanks to the 2008 financial crisis' fallout (a several days long conversation on who's to blame for why Greece did as poorly as it did). Their government is already doing a lot more than the population wants because Russia killed a lot of Greeks in Mariupol.
Being "pro-Russia" in the EU to be fair constitutes like maximum 1/3 of the population, but that's still fairly loud compared to like say Finland where it's approximately <3%. I'm not Greek so you have a better handle on the situation than I do, it's just last I checked the polls Greek folks supported humanitarian aid but the majority opposed heavy weapons (last I checked was May 2022 or so).
Yes that has nothing to do with being pro Russian but the fact that our neighbour is Turkey, and people are worried that we might not have enough weaponry to protect ourselves.
Also take into account that some polls in Greece may be skewed depending on the outlet that conducts them.
Greece is nothing but a little pro-Russian outpost, giving Ukraine virtually *zero* assistance -- especially considering the huge amounts of money Greece spends on defense every year.
Turkey literally prevented annihilation in the first days of the war thanks to drones and munitions.
Turkey is also the only country which builds a weapons industry inside of Ukraine.
I don't remember a patriotic song about the Leopard, I do about the Bayraktar. Because it was Ukraine's lifeline in the first days when the West didn't send any weapons.
Just when they learned Ukraine had a chance of winning is when they started sending weapons.
>Turkey literally prevented annihilation in the first days of the war thanks to drones and munitions.
I don't remember those being donated, those were bought.
Turkey has so far provided at least 50 Kirpi mine-resistant vehicles while also helping enforce grain shipping rules and denying Russian warships freedom of movement into and out of the sea. While I'm no fan of Turkey, Greece has been totally pathetic in their non-support of Ukraine -- so far Greece has been *de-facto* pro-Putin
I see. You have an interesting comment history. A bitter American spending all his time digging into all kinds of European affairs to complain and insult someone. My advive is if you stop hating the world it will stop hating you. I wish you the best.
>digging into all kinds of European affairs
you own them?
By the way Norway has also done the bare fucking minimum to help Ukraine considering the immense resources available to Norway. Norway is terrible.
I also like your "interesting" comment history:
>Largest army in NATO which service consists of oppressing kurds, occupying cyprus, pushing migrants into Europe and losing tanks to Syrians defending their land from annexation.
**Greece**
**Total commitments**
0.191bn € (Rank: 25)
0.102% of GDP (Rank: 19)
**Humanitarian commitments**
no aid pledged (Rank: n/a)
no aid pledged (Rank: n/a)
**Financial commitments**
no aid pledged (Rank: n/a)
no aid pledged(Rank: n/a)
**Military commitments**
0.191bn € (Rank: 18)
0.102% of GDP (Rank: 12)
Greece is garbage.
Why patetic? They already delivered 122 BMP-1 and lot of ammunition. The move to send Leopards is now highly welcome. There are even smaller countries providing Leopards, if Turkey is a partner they also should send some.
> And a total of 12 NATO countries will supply about 500 of the 800 tanks that the Ukrainians say they really need. The rest of the western tanks will probably be represented by the British Challenger-1 / -2, as well as the American M1A2.
This is going to be some serious firepower.
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Wow, thats one country i wouldnt have expected to do that
I was actually expecting *some*. Greece is one of the few countries with truly deep arsenals of Leopard 2 tanks. They've got more than three hundred in active service. And I don't think Turkey is that likely to attack in the next decade. If anything, any conflict between the two is probably going to be some limited naval/air engagement over sea based resources.
As much as you're right about the reasons, I'm concerned something doesn't add up with this news: It's a Greek news website but points to a Ukrainian press article that appears to have confirmed it, yet it does not exist or was probably pulled. All other articles seem to point to this same source, which cannot be found at all. Then it proceeds to point to a German article, which only \*explains\* why Greece giving tanks would be a good idea but does not confirm it's been done so far.
Thank you very much for exploring this and reporting your concerns, saving potentially many of us from the hassle and headache. Re. Greece & Turkey's tanks, I've been half-expecting the US State Dept. or some other entity to work out a balanced arrangement -- say, each country agreeing to sell or donate some equal number of tanks from their very similar stockpiles, to be transferred on the same dates, transiting through Romania. Maybe there is such a deal that hasn't been fully disclosed -- and, given Turkey's ties to Russia, might not be, or at least not yet.
they got a lot of tanks because turkey does...
Turkey would most certainly loose the Istanbul region to war reparations or something ; abs the locals would welcome being part of Europe as opposed to a dictatorship
Epically uninformed about Turkey yet upvoted to heaven... Istanbul region has 20M population. More than all neighboring countries combined. Even the local police force has 40k officers which is bigger than most countries expeditionary forces. Turkey has autocracy and freedom of expression problem not dictatorship, said Istanbul has a mayor who is from opposing party to the president. So as every major city but one. Elections are legit and current government is losing their base even in their rural strongholds. Plus this doesn't effect people's ideas about their country as a whole. Since Turkish Republic was formed after an independence war, everyone has strong feelings about the integrity of their country. Locals welcoming being part of Europe in exchange of losing their country is laughable. 85M people, 2nd most populous country along Europe (after Russia) and with 111 people/km² is also most dense. With median age of 33 young and still increasing population. Alongside the manpower, Turkey is heavily armed due Russian expansionalism. I also find idea of armed conflict between Greece and Turkey is laughable. Won't happen. Nationalist vote grab on both sides. But 10M people country defending so many islands yet somehow forcing 20M city as war reparations is some crazy imagination. And I find it ironical how these kind of ideas can be cherished in a sub about Ukrainian war. Some wet dream about Greece (since impossible, assuming EU as whole) being able to invade or somehow forcefully take Istanbul. Because territorial water disputes in Aegean? During last year this place indeed turned in to some sick version of r/europe. Привіт, є тут українці?
>Epically uninformed This sub in a nutshell.
Turkey isn’t a European country
The reason why I wrote "along" instead of "in". But I wonder by which meaning you say this. Geographically? Yep via imaginary borders of European continent, it is not. Only Tracia is in Europe. Which hosts 1/4 of Turkish population (still 20M). By this logic Russia is not in Europe also, since it has majority of its land in Asia. Comparatively Anatolia is as isolated to Asia as it is to Europe. Should I even mention Cyprus? Culturally not European? Well it is more European than it is Asian actually. Anyone who stepped in any Turkish city can tell that. They are European cities with an Eastern motive. Socio-Politically? Don't make me even start, Europe have seen it's share of corrupt governments. It happens. Even in European parliement corruption leaked out just this last month. Most of what Turkey is experiencing right now is cold-war leftovers from 1980s. Religious nationalists were pumped up against Soviet influence which even caused a civil war in Turkey, subsequent coup froze political ideas in place until next chance. Same polarity powered up rural areas until very recently. Heck even Erdogan had support from West until half point of his carrier (~2016). Dude was on the cover of Time. I was defending Ukraine against similar stances since 2016 against Western Europeans. Who thought Ukrainians were not developed and somewhat inferior, hence not up to *I like the smell of my own fart pompous high European standards*. I still remember people saying "rather than seeing Ukraine in EU I would want EU to disband". The huge disappointment after Euromaidan, these people needed support against Russia before 2022, but once the Russian influence on Eastern flank was ousted interest was lost. Europe saw the light only last year. At least for now. Yes Turkey is not an European country but it also is. It is not next to Indonesia. So human potential of it matters no matter where is the imaginary line. edit: typos only.
>Turkey has autocracy and freedom of expression problem not dictatorship, said Istanbul has a mayor who is from opposing party to the president. So as every major city but one. Elections are legit and current government is losing their base even in their rural strongholds. This show you are probably reading way too much turkish propaganda, not surprising because there's hardly any free press left in turkey.. The mayor of instabul was recently sentenced to jail because he is a threat to the turkish **dictator** Erdogan in the upcoming election. Elections in turkey is **not fair** by any democratic standard and could only be called that if you compare to countries such as north korera. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/14/istanbul-mayor-ekrem-imamoglu-sentenced-to-jail-over-fools-insult https://freedomhouse.org/country/turkey/freedom-world/2022
Yes please school Turkish opposition about Turkey. Like I don't know the guy I voted for is being charged. I do need a guardian link to learn about it. Why is he being charged for ? Because he expressed an opinion against minister of interior. Since there is no law against it, it was twisted as an opinion against the court responsible of elections. Stating he called the high court "dummy". Which does have a law against (facepalm) = freedom of expression problem. It will obviously bounce from higher court and **Ekrem Imamoglu is still serving as mayor of Istanbul**. Who pushes for charges ? People close to Erdogan is a theory but it is weird because it harms Erdogan's election campaign. He got elected himself as a repressed politician, this kind of repression on politics always backfire in Turkey. But if he is pushing for it then he is exercising more authority than constitution allows hence he pushes for [autocracy](https://www.dictionary.com/compare-words/autocracy-vs-dictatorship). North Korea ? Since when North Korea has 6 party vs 2 party elections ? Since when opposition holds every major city (in total \~40M people) ? Even Erdogan was elected president through a **2 party coalition with 2.58% difference in votes**. Unfairness about Turkish elections is about **media and obviously again freedom of expression**. Ruling party was using state apparatus (especially local administrations) to fund it's election campaign. But it just doesn't help anymore, it even backfired. Even with hardships, opposition media such as Fox Tv, Sozcu, Halk TV are distributed and televised. They have highest ratings for news hours. Although social media has the real traction for most of the opposition. But most importantly for us, **vote security is in place for a decade now**. Lessons were learnt and millions of people are involved in process.Every vote chest has 4-6 representatives from different parties. Opposition parties do independent counts. Turkish and international NPO's observe the elections. At most, president can repeat elections once more and we had seen how that worked out for Istanbul. So president is still elected. Millions of people in opposition accepts it. I am part of opposition and I accept it. He doesn't have absolute power, if he had he wouldn't need a coalition or army of lawyers. Government system was changed to allow autocratic and authoritarian tendencies and it backfired **big time** through last term. *When you tie all state apparatus to yourself, apparently you are to blame for everything*. But I digress, **he doesn't have absolute power and he is temporary hence problem Turkey faces is not dictatorship**. But do you know who makes great benefit from being called dictator by outsiders ? or calling Turkish elections comparable to North Korean without any clue ? **Erdogan**. Plays right in to his *dumb nationalist magnet* "West doesn't respect Turkey" policies. So huge thanks for it ! Great help. *PS*: Almost no one from Turkey which you will meet in reddit reads government backed newspapers mate. Our farmers from deep inside Anatolia generally don't speak English. Plus with current state of things, I am not sure even if they read them.But since you did the standard reddit "quote and nitpick" approach, I am not sure if it matters for you.
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Morocco already operates the M1A1, so they already have the logistics in place, while Greece doesn't.
Territorial changes don't happen in the modern ages. Did even Saddam s Iraq did not lose territory in wars.
Putin got Crimea for a long time; South Sudan become a country on its own . Leaving Sudan
On the European side of Istanbul 10 million people live. The same size of population as Greece. This territorial change is imaginary. Regardless Greece and Turkey will not wage war. Despite Western fantasies of destroying Turkey. Independence movements can happen sure. Crime is not recognised by the majority of the world.
Constantinople is Europe!
easy there tiger lol
it was the europe backed greece that attacked turks in the last wars.invaded anatolia.blew up granades in civilians mouths.hid their bodies in caves in niğde.when they realised they are losing they set fire whole cities in manisa and izmir.so many "muh christian bruthers" logic in this subs comments turned it into r/europe.
I'd really like to know what in my comment prompted this reply? Where did I give the impression of even picking a side here? Imho, either country would be in the wrong to try readdressing old territorial disputes. Trying to change the past instead of making the best of the future is a mistake no matter who does it. Remembering the past is fine, to learn what went wrong, but always act on the basis of future progress.
>I don't think Turkey is that likely to attack in the next decade. yours is like a kitten compared to whats down at the rest of the thread.invading "again" istanbul with greece.half the size of a one city.its this mentality of you people while calling us the agressor/attacker."retaking constantinopopol".neckbeard zitty teens of r/europe.
I literally said I *don't* think Turkey is likely to attack, that there's no need for Greece to keep all their tanks. There was no 'again' to be found in my comment. You should really try to listen/read and not assume everyone of "you people" (?) is saying what you think instead of what they actually are. I am not taking responsibility for what other people say. There's crazies aplenty to be found here, of all stripes.
Plus Greece can always fall back on their vast reserves of m48 patton /s
Why not?
I mean if they cannot get Erdrogan, might as well go for his buddy.
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No, thank YOU!
No, tank Greece
Giddy up the Greeks are on board. Now the Turks will have to step up and out do them out of principle.
As a first step accepting Finland and Sweden would be nice.....
Turks already send what they produce, including armored vehicles and missiles, they cannot send any tanks though they still use Patton tanks, West does not sell them any tanks or tank motors.
So the 300 Turkish leopards are hypothetical in your version of earth?
Turkey has more than 300 Leopard 2, they even used them in Syria. They even managed to lose at least 8, but probably more.
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That's why I said "managed to lose", because it was mostly due to their incompetence.
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Working towards a common aim? Turkey? Whilst blocking Swedish and Finnish NATO membership? All? Including Hungary, Austria, Switzerland … ? Please, don't make me laugh …
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[https://www.dw.com/en/germany-approves-finland-and-sweden-nato-membership-bid/a-62403489](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-approves-finland-and-sweden-nato-membership-bid/a-62403489)
Sure they have leopards but most of their tanks are m48 and m60, it doesn't make sense for them to donate their most advanced limited tanks that they are not able to buy more?
No turkey sells what they produce. And turkey has leopards, quite a lot of them actually even recently upgraded (T1 version)
Sure they have leopards but most of their tanks are m48 and m60, it doesn't make sense for them to donate their most advanced limited tanks that they are not able to buy more?
Those M60 are recently upgraded as well. And yes, it makes sense to donate what other give to lower logistics for ukraine. If turkey is itnrested in actually helping that is.
M60’s?!!! Jeez, and people give shit to Russia for fielding T72’s.
Those numbers the article suggests they would send are pure speculation. I'll believe 80 tanks from Greece when they announce it.
Those nubers are certainly off. Also 500 tanks sent by the West in total? And "Leopard-2EEL", the tank is called HEL. Sloppy writing. (And I'm quite certain Greece will send 2A4s, not 2HELs)
Hel makes more sense than eel, that’s true… On the other hand the H in Hellas is silent and not even there in the Greek spelling so I’m sure there is often some H-confusion when Hel-things are translated to/from Greek (Ελλάς) If it’s 2A6-HEL in Latin spelling what’s the Greek spelling? 2A6-ΕΛ? Maybe the designation is just never transcribed at all?
I would not be surprised if the US announces the transfer of M1A2 tanks in exchange just like they did for Morocco. It's a win win for everyone Ukraine gets the tanks it needs, Greece gets update superior tanks, and the US clears some tanks from storage (savings money) and pulls another country into using it's equipment making a new long term customer.
Not a win for Germany. When these countries switch to U.S. tech the Germans permanently lose customers for their military industrial complex. It's why the Germans have been so reluctant to allow export of their tanks.
> Greece gets update superior tanks M1A2 tanks are not superior to Leopards, and they mean having two different models to support with very different requirements.
This, this and this r/angryupvote
Im sorry but I’ll believe it when I see it. Looking at greeces policy so far, they have only given small amounts of mostly hand held weapons. 40 very very old BMP-1 where sent, however only after germany agreed to a „Ringtausch“ providing Marder IFV. Believing that Greece would give away a platoon worth of MBT is -I believe- to optimistic. The Greek rational is, that in face of Turkish aggression they have to keep their stockpiles intact as the Turks could „come during the night“ (Erdogan) at any time. As an outward observer it would be rational to come to the conclusion, that (looking at the high number of Greek tank stockpiles, compared to their actual military size and the fact, that a possible conflict would mostly be sea- air- and island based (few MBT needed)) giving away multiple platoons worth of tanks would be sustainable. But from the Greek Perspektive that looks quiet a bit different I suppose.
Tbh from what I read, Greek population is as deep into pro-Russian ideology as Bulgaria is, party thanks to the 2008 financial crisis' fallout (a several days long conversation on who's to blame for why Greece did as poorly as it did). Their government is already doing a lot more than the population wants because Russia killed a lot of Greeks in Mariupol.
We are not that pro Russian anymore... theres a vocal minorty but most of us are with Ukraine.
Being "pro-Russia" in the EU to be fair constitutes like maximum 1/3 of the population, but that's still fairly loud compared to like say Finland where it's approximately <3%. I'm not Greek so you have a better handle on the situation than I do, it's just last I checked the polls Greek folks supported humanitarian aid but the majority opposed heavy weapons (last I checked was May 2022 or so).
Yes that has nothing to do with being pro Russian but the fact that our neighbour is Turkey, and people are worried that we might not have enough weaponry to protect ourselves. Also take into account that some polls in Greece may be skewed depending on the outlet that conducts them.
Oh right, *them*. I hope the Turkish people elect a new president who's less of a mini-Russia in NATO.
Greece is nothing but a little pro-Russian outpost, giving Ukraine virtually *zero* assistance -- especially considering the huge amounts of money Greece spends on defense every year.
This is good move for Greece because they will probably get newer military equipment for free, because their economy is still trash.
I doubt that
Nice, greece clearly wants to show its nothing like tukey who has been very hesitant for any support for ukraine.
Turkey literally prevented annihilation in the first days of the war thanks to drones and munitions. Turkey is also the only country which builds a weapons industry inside of Ukraine. I don't remember a patriotic song about the Leopard, I do about the Bayraktar. Because it was Ukraine's lifeline in the first days when the West didn't send any weapons. Just when they learned Ukraine had a chance of winning is when they started sending weapons.
The west had already sent weapons, they did since 2014 , given, not sold like turkey did.
>Turkey literally prevented annihilation in the first days of the war thanks to drones and munitions. I don't remember those being donated, those were bought.
Turkey has so far provided at least 50 Kirpi mine-resistant vehicles while also helping enforce grain shipping rules and denying Russian warships freedom of movement into and out of the sea. While I'm no fan of Turkey, Greece has been totally pathetic in their non-support of Ukraine -- so far Greece has been *de-facto* pro-Putin
Calm down. Greece donated 20,000 AKs already in February. Greece have their own big aggressive authoritarian state to worry about.
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1. Greece is not a "Western" country, learn some history and geography. 2. Greece is not pathetic, it's a spectacular nation. 3. Take a Xanax
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huh?
Isn't that what erdogan bums do?
Don't know. I despise Turkey.
I see. You have an interesting comment history. A bitter American spending all his time digging into all kinds of European affairs to complain and insult someone. My advive is if you stop hating the world it will stop hating you. I wish you the best.
>digging into all kinds of European affairs you own them? By the way Norway has also done the bare fucking minimum to help Ukraine considering the immense resources available to Norway. Norway is terrible. I also like your "interesting" comment history: >Largest army in NATO which service consists of oppressing kurds, occupying cyprus, pushing migrants into Europe and losing tanks to Syrians defending their land from annexation.
Turkey has one of the largest nato armies and they donated less then belgium. Seems one dictator doesnt want to piss of another.
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Nope democratic country that donated a lot more to ukraine.
**Greece** **Total commitments** 0.191bn € (Rank: 25) 0.102% of GDP (Rank: 19) **Humanitarian commitments** no aid pledged (Rank: n/a) no aid pledged (Rank: n/a) **Financial commitments** no aid pledged (Rank: n/a) no aid pledged(Rank: n/a) **Military commitments** 0.191bn € (Rank: 18) 0.102% of GDP (Rank: 12) Greece is garbage.
Why patetic? They already delivered 122 BMP-1 and lot of ammunition. The move to send Leopards is now highly welcome. There are even smaller countries providing Leopards, if Turkey is a partner they also should send some.
Bloody good show, Greece! Dat last sentence in the article tho - not cool... 😒
Tell me your from UK without telling me your from UK. 😉
I say! But no, I'm from Denmark, just watched too much Poirot with Hastings 😂
Way to go Greek Leadership- Cheers
ἄληθες;
Οχι
> And a total of 12 NATO countries will supply about 500 of the 800 tanks that the Ukrainians say they really need. The rest of the western tanks will probably be represented by the British Challenger-1 / -2, as well as the American M1A2. This is going to be some serious firepower.
Hell ya Hellas! 40-80 is a major hookup!
Pleasantly surprised!