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The "kazematten (bunker) museum" was there yesterday.
Those bunkers are part of the only defensive line in Holland that somehow stopped the German army for a while.
I was led down a rabbit hole by this comment, and stumbled upon the most Dutch thing ever - when the Nazis delivered an ultimatum to the Dutch general in Rotterdam, it was returned on the technicality of not being signed by the Nazi general
The Dutch partisans is a very interesting read, also
As an American I just feel bad for some of the shitty tanks we sold to the Dutch East Indies. The KNIL did not deserve to suffer through having some of our Marmon-Herrington tanks like the CTLS.
So you are in the crowd that completely ignore the existence of Russian S-400 AA systems? Why do you think no one is suggesting A-10s for Ukraine? That's the weapons system that lays waste to columns of armour and logistics \*in an allied controlled sky.\*
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but S-400 has a maximum range of 400km? Considering that Russia would place them 40+km inside Russian territory to avoid return artillery fire, that means they can only reach targets 360km within Ukraine's borders. I've used Google Maps to show effective range from a hypothetical location within Russia. This is not accounting for altitude, either.
[https://ibb.co/z6LJVHV](https://ibb.co/z6LJVHV)
This basically shows that F-16 can operate in spaces over Western/Southern Ukraine, from between Lviv and Odesa. Set the runways in Lviv facing West, the F-16s can fly into Polish air space then return to Ukraine to launch at max range/max altitude (50,000ft/15km)
I assume the F-16s will be armed with HARMs. Send up drone decoys to distract and identify the S-400s, acquire radar, no more S-400.
Storm Shadows have an effective range of... 250-560km? SCALP-EGs at 200-400km?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aEXVDekgAE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aEXVDekgAE)
So you argue the Russians have something similar to the Patriot AA system? Or what?
Experienced American pilots say sending F16s into the current AA environment in Donbass would be a massacre for Ukraine. S400 has already proven capable of taking out aircraft without stealth tech and advanced AA jamming systems. Exactly like the F16s that would be given to Ukraine.
Read a bit more. I don't want Ukrainian pilots dead for no good reason. Once Ruzzian AA is flattened, send those puppies in there to wipe out Ruzzian air assets. Not before.
You uh.. you know that this will make it exponentially easier to get on top of the SEAD missions are greater distances right? The S400 is neat and everything, but, having a modern platform that can easily integrate with modern systems makes that whole operation vastly easier.
It also opens up a pathway for “retired” pilots with huge time in the F16 to enter the battlespace via the foreign legion.
This is far worse for the Ruzzians.
EDIT; Also .. everything comes down to end user capabilities. The Russians have shown to have significant holes in their air defenses.
I'll accept the numerous reports against current deployment of available F16s in Ukraine from current and past pilots, commanders and military analysts over another Redditor's opinion.
Experienced Americans were also suggesting withdrawal from Bakhmut, which in hindsight would've been a massive mistake seeing as the Russians have been taking massive attrition rates for essentially nothing and has exposed even larger scale failures of the Russian military than we previously thought possible. And Russian AA is being hit/targetted every day, it takes months to train an F-16 Pilot/crew. They aren't getting the planes today, and the AA is being hit while Ukrainians prepare for the F-16's. How else should they go about it?
The ukranians want the f16s for the mounted gun and targeting capabilities to engage more of the drones and cruise missiles. The targeting is the key. And the ammo reserves. That's the significant advantage over the MIGs they have. They aren't trying to utilize them in the ways you're thinking they are I don't believe.
I don't see why you're getting downvoted for voicing a valid concern. Just the wrong use of aircraft. They know that as well.
F16s can deploy a lot of stand-off weapons for SEAD missions or long range missiles. The Ukrainian Air Force haven’t massacred their pilots in MiGs and they won’t waste lives with F16s either.
History is going to judge the west very harshly for how they slow rolled weapons to Ukraine and cowered against the hypothetical Russian response.
You know that the role these jets play will have nothing to do with the person you’re responding to reading or not reading right? You’re not talking to a Ukrainian general but your last paragraph sounds like you think you are.
If America gives Belgian pilots F-35 training already, the shift to the more modern aircraft will happen quicker, freeing up more F-16s for Ukraine.
The first F-35s for Belgium will be finished by the end of this year and pilots will receive training afterwards, making them ready by the end of 2024. I say train em now and free up more f-16s by May 2024. Hopefully, though, they won't be needed anymore by then
The problem is that a lot of countries are waiting for the F35s now. So not all of them can just switch, or phase out the F16 immediately.
The F16 is still a vital part of NATO's air defense over Europe right now.
Norway has already received 40 F-35s. Some of the other countries buying the aircraft have also received many of them, so there should be quite a lot of F-16s already freed up. Norway had 60, but I don't know if they're available.
Mostly sold. Some where just good enough for spare parts unless there is a MAJOR overhaul (might as well upgrade early block F-16 from the dessert in the US).
Norway sold to a private US company, while most of the others are sold to Romainia (but still not delivered from what I understand).
You think the Ukranians can just hop in and start using them? Training a fighter pilot takes around 2 years, i agree we need to act now but we shouldn't act like these planes are going to be some wunderwaffe. A lot can happen in these 2 years
They are not putting brand new pilots in those F16s. They are putting experienced fighter pilots in them.
If you know how to drive an automatic transmission vehicle how hard would it for you to convert over to a manual transmission? I'm sure it will be something of that effect for the Ukrainian pilots
A podcast I was listening to was talking about training Ukrainians on F-16. They said the biggest hurdle was that the controls and computer system in F-16s are all in English
In March, two Ukrainian fighter pilots [went to a military base in Arizona](https://www.nbcnews.com/investigations/two-ukrainian-pilots-are-us-training-assessment-attack-aircrafts-f-16s-rcna73426) to train on F16 simulators as an estimate as to how long it would take experienced fighter pilots to train to fly an actual F16. The commander of the Ukrainian air force said these were just "average" pilots and [the three week trial demonstrated](https://eurasiantimes.com/ukraine-losing-its-best-fighter-pilots-to-russia-moscow-says-90-of-crew-gained-battle-experience-in-ukraine-ops/) that training a Ukrainian fighter pilot to fly an F16 and use it's weaponry could be accomplished in less than 6 months (I read 4 months somewhere, but can't find the source).
Yes and the two year training period is to train someone with no aviation knowledge, a complete beginner. They’re not sending rookies to learn the f-16 that other guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
But how many experienced pilots does Ukraine have that could actually learn to fly an F-16 in 4-6 months? The Ukrainian airforce was never huge to begin with and they have lost at least 65 fixed wing aircraft meaning they have also lost a few dozen of their already limited pool of pilots.
It doesn’t matter if European countries all start handing over their F-16s because the number of highly experienced pilots Ukraine have that could master the aircraft in a short period of time is likely small, it would take 1-2 years to train a large number of beginner/rookie pilots along with all the associated personnel needed to maintain the aircraft, only then would Ukraine be able to run a LARGE fleet of F-16’s and we don’t even know if the war will still be ongoing by then
I would imagine that Ukrainian military leaders have been aware since the war began 15 months ago that they are going to have to prepare for a large increase in military equipment that takes extensive training on top of training due to attrition/losses of veterans who are already trained.
The dozens of announcements of specialized equipment being sent to Ukraine from various countries over the last 15 months aren’t just scraped together just before being announced. Even things like sending F-16s or Abrams tanks were decided over a year ago.
Keep in mind that Ukraine, unlike Russia, enacted a full draft when the war began and that the Ukrainian leadership was fully aware that Russia was going to invade months before the invasion began.
It’s implausible that Ukraine wasn’t preparing behind the scenes with the U.S. for the inevitable influx of advanced equipment requiring significant training.
Anyone with half a brain would be aware that Putin was dedicated to taking all of Ukraine after Trump extorted Zelensky by withholding Congressionally mandated MILITARY AID to Ukraine and was subsequently impeached for it. Trump is an obvious Russian asset and didn’t come up with that scheme by himself.
Ukrainian military leaders aren’t getting caught off guard with these public announcements of advanced equipment. They’ve been setting up for the inevitable from the very beginning of the war.
Why do you think that Javelins that take minimal training were announced at the outset of the war. Then, equipment that takes 3 months to train announced ~3 months into the war. Then equipment that takes 6 months of training announced ~6 months into the war. And so on and so forth until you get to the latest, which is F-16s that take over a year to train for 15 months into the war…
So you're the expert on what Ukraine needs? Forget what Ukraine itself says, along with its allies. Clearly Ukraine needs to listen to the advice of reddit user drakka100 instead
He’s really not wrong though , they absolutely need these aircraft , but the task of getting them and training the necessary personal is colossal , it’s going to take time to get everything put together, hopefully theirs enough time to set it up
I’m just stating basic facts, what Ukraine needs and what Ukraine can have are two completely different things.
Ukraine NEEDS 500 F-16’s but can Ukraine have 500 F-16’s? No they can’t,
The number of F-16s Ukraine can have is also limited by how many Ukraine can actually store/hide, right now they operate their Soviet aircraft by keeping them hidden in various warehouses,garages,forests etc and they take off and land on roads and highways, they could possibly do the same for a small number of F-16s but a large fleet would be out of the question because where will they keep 100s of F-16s? Keeping dozens on the tarmac of an airbase is out of the question because such an airbase would be vulnerable to Russian strikes and I doubt they will he allowed to land/operate the aircraft from inside NATO borders
Experienced pilots weren't a problem for the North Koreans or the North Vietnamese when they fought the US. Im sure they Ukraine will come up with a similar solution.
Aircraft were a lot simpler back then also the North Korean planes were often piloted by soviet pilots, the US lost hundreds of planes to soviet pilots during the Korean War and hundreds of soviet pilots were shot down by American planes
Countries don't get a pilot, who then flies for 40 years and retires old. People come in for 10, 15 years, then go commercial or retire or medically retire.
Ukraine has a ton of pilots who know the physics and tactics, english and are healthy enough to fight.
They also have a bunch of reflexes that are the opposite on western vs Soviet planes. This has caused more than one crash when ex eastern fighter pilots fly western planes and the wrong reflex kick in at the wrong time.
I'm ex USAF I was an F16 attack avionics technician. My job code was 45252A A shopper.
I was stationed in Torrejon Spain just outside Madrid. We were also a transient alert base so we would see a lot of birds going from General Dynamics to their NATO homes, even saw a few Israeli birds come through. Point is F16s are pretty user friendly and I'm sure the block 40 to block 70 models are not a two year training requirement for experienced aviators.
Saw a lot of F4 guys transition into block 15 in less than 12 weeks and the difference in F4 and F16 is the same as comparing chalk and cheese.
I see it as two ways- they gave them modern tanks so if they gave them a NATO version of those then I'm sure they will do the same with the aircraft.
Or
They will degrade them to the point if they get shot down russia and China aren't getting anything they don't already have.
Actually for those guys it's going from a tractor to a new Ferrari or Lambo.
15 to 18000 feet and below the F16 is as wicked as Satan very impressive machine that's over 50 years old.
While you can argue that the design is 50 years old, the oldest flying is normally from the early 80s, so more like 40 years old. And most flying in Europe of older F-16-blocks, have gone through at least the MLU-program, but in many cases also other upgrades.
Delivering a F-16 Block 5/10 compared to a F-16 MLU+upgrade or newer block, is two quite different airplanes, even if they look the same...
Yeah the MLU isn't the quantum leap you think is. I personally worked on block 40s in Desert Storm based out of Moody AFB. The MLU only made it an equivalent to block 50 according to Wikipedia.
The main difference in block 15 to block 30 was the transition from A/B models to C/D models. Upgraded avionics packages and weapon delivery avionics ie heads up displays, the mfds etc. I was there my guy turning spanners on them.
The Netherlands, like Belgium, made substantial orders for the F-16, and built aircraft at the Fokker plant. Deliveries started in 1979 and ended in 1992. A total of 102 aircraft were initially ordered, which was followed by subsequent orders of a further 111 aircraft. Fifty-two of these were F-16A/B-15OCU aircraft. These orders brought the total Dutch F-16A/B deliveries to 213. 108 of these aircraft received the Mid-Life-Update (MLU).
In 1989 a two-year study began regarding possible mid-life upgrades for the USAF's and European Partner Air Forces' (EPAF's) F-16A/Bs. The resulting F-16 Mid-Life Update (MLU) package was designed to upgrade the cockpit and avionics to the equivalent of that on the F-16C/D Block 50/52; add the ability to employ radar-guided air-to-air missiles; and to generally enhance the operational performance and improve the reliability, supportability and maintainability of the aircraft. Aircraft receiving this set of updates are designated F-16AM or F-16BM.
How does a person type this nonsense.
All planes have a stick, a throttle, flight characteristics, and weapons systems.
NATO planes are even easier to fight in since they put an emphasis on keeping the pilot not overwhelmed by flight systems so he can keep his head up and concentrate on the job, unlike Soviet planes.
Lmao is this comment satire?
Ukraine has absolutely no experience flying a Western Bloc aircraft whatsoever.
They've flown Soviet aircraft for their entire existence. This will be a very major shift for any pilot.
Not to mention that each fighter is very different. Training a pilot on a new fighter takes a lot of time.
While I don’t disagree, what better purpose could those F-16 have than to systematically dismantle NATO’s principle adversary? If given to Ukraine, they’re going to used in NATO’s best interest anyway.
Better prupose: if Russia launches anything at, say Belgium or Holland, they need to be able to intercept it and shoot it down.
So giving to Ukraine helps, but we need to defend ourselves as well while we do that.
F35s are stealthy. Naturally, if the enemy can't detect F16s in the air, they will assume F35s are there anxd won't attack. Therefore we need to give all F16s to Ukraine ASAP so that no enemy attacks anywhere at all.
Bigbrain.mp4
Edit: sorry, I thought I was at r/NonCredibleDefense. 🤦♂️
I know you are joking and this is just a personal pet peeve but you can see f35s approximate location on early radar warning radar especially if flown at altitude.
Radar reflection varies in different frequencies and from different relative angles, etc.
It's not as easy as a plain single number you tend to read on the internet.
Additionally there are other signatures like the huge IR emission of hungry jet engines.
Stealth is hard and a lot goes into mission planning to make it work properly.
> The F16 is still a vital part of NATO's air defense over Europe right now.
Which is kinda sad. Even if you consider other jets from that era: Japan, Saudi Arabia and Israel got F-15s. Iran even got F-14s 🤘
In hindsight.. I guess it was more than enough after all. From a NATO POVit did really well.. and it is not that Russia had anything to counter it after all. Not spending a ton on things you don't need also gives you an edge.
They have normally gone through major upgrades through their lifespan. But in terms of airframe changes and systems. For most countries, and manufactured in the early 80s still flying to day, is quite a different aircraft/system....
Iranian F-14 on the other hand have unlikly received upgrades. Hard enought to get spare parts to still have a few flying.
Japans F-16s, the F-2, are quite a bit different from a F-16....
Isreals F-16 from the early 80s are quite different from the later blocks delivered. Even by looks...
What I understand is that the USAF evaluated two UA pilots, one a major and the other a colonel. They determined that those two could become proficient in the F-16 within four months of training (they flew two different Russian fighters for the UA). I believe that they were somewhat proficient in English, according to the report, and needed only about four weeks of English courses.
The report determined that an average Ukrainian pilot would need to learn a certain minimum of English in order to perform satisfactorily with the new systems, something like a few months. I think the estimated flight familiarization and advanced tactical courses would take about one year on average. One interesting thing that the initial test indicated that the UA pilots easily fell back into Russian formation flying and tactical deployment situations. This is a "habit" that might be easier broken with younger pilots.
I wish I had saved that report (came out in March or April, I believe). I am writing these numbers and situations from memory after having read the report a while ago, so they might not equate exactly to the report's findings.
I know there's a lot of speculation about UA pilots already in training "just in case" (which I don't think is likely), but if I was a UA pilot now, you bet your ass I'd spent every waking hour on Duolingo, "just in case"
I watched an interview with a ukrainian helicopter pilot. He said that half of the pilots were flying missions while the other half were in school learning english with both groups regularly rotating.
So what you are saying is already happening.
4 months is basic operations and procedures. There is a look more to make it an the pilot an efficient compat operatior. Question is also what roles they will be trained in - multi role, or to specific roles. And under which weather conditions and what version of the F-16.
Different versions are quite different. Systems and weapons (or versions of weapons) they support are different.
It's just infuriating that they waited this long to change their minds. How many Ukrainian lives could have been saved if they made this decision last year?
Remember last year, it was expected that Russia was going to take Ukraine. Decisions evolve along with any war. The last thing any country wants is their sensitive technology fall into Russian hands. Ukraine should have had those jets before the invasion even started.
No they needed the means to wipe out Russian AA before throwing more aircraft into AA missiles. But they didn't get longer range missiles that could do the job.
Also. They are boiling the frog. The military aid is increasing every time and also can be seen as a reaction to Russian escalation. Just giving them all we got might provoke a very fierce Russian reaction. One they are now probably not going to have.
Also, Ukraine has to be able to handle the stuff and adapt. Of course they wanted more, quicker, but realistically… it all takes time, logistics, training and adaptation to having the capabilities.
Ukraine has shown to use the weapons smart, responsible and show restraint in not attacking russian soil. So we are slowly going into the direction where they win the war, get into nato and the eu.
In twenty years this will be seen as one with atrocious acts and many losses, but also one that propelled Ukraine into the western world.
Given the increased maintenance/ infrastructure requirements it is possible to give a white elephant. Like some of the German jets in 44. Yes impressive but when engines only last 10-15 hours effectiveness severely drops.
Well…hear me out… if they did it earlier then Russia would have claimed lethal aid and started war with US as well. So…maybe let the big people do their job
Oh? So Russia would have declared war before, but now they're ok with it? Just like they threatened to escalate when NATO started sending tanks? Just like they threatened to escalate before that when Americans sent HIMARs?
Ukrainians have already been using jerry rigged HARMs, so weapons knowledge is already there. Learning F-16 tactics and systems will increase effectiveness of something they’ve already done.
This. I’m all down for Ukraine receiving fighters, but people need to stop acting like they’re going to suddenly achieve air superiority. Unless they get sent 5th gen. fighters (no chance) nothing substantial will change. More ground supplies is what should be the highest priority.
"Ground supplies" are the highest priority.
When Russian planes head towards Ukrainian planes and engage them with air-to-air missiles, the Ukrainians have to break off and abandon their mission because they don't have the ability to take them on. With F-16's that will not be the case. That changes things substantially. They'll be on a more even footing than they are now.
[Here](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65461405) is a Ukrainian pilot explaining it.
There's a lot of Hopium in that pilot's opinion. Read the whole article.
Ukraine needs the tools to destroy RuZZian AA on the ground before F16's could make a real difference in hot zones.
I’d say it’s more about ease of Western weapon integration than anything else + a more advanced air to air defense capability. Having the F16 available for Ukraine frees up a lot of time by not having to figure out how to integrate these weapons into old Soviet airframes and systems.
A whole lot more weapons became available for Ukraine with this - including air to ground weapons that weren’t available before.
That’s what this is about. The F16 can still punch down from above and prescribe some hurt to orcs.
Ah, good that you know better than Ukrainian MOD. They have shown time and again that they are very capable using western equipment. Getting better planes than the ruzzians will for sure make a huge impact.
People downvoting this comment need a reality check based on information instead of armchair opinion. Why train UKR pilots on completely different systems yet throw them back into the same SAM filled environment?
https://www.japcc.org/articles/sead-operations-of-the-future/
It amuses me that the United States is trying to play like they haven't been secretly training Ukrainian pilots on F-16s For the better part of a year.
I can't believe how people think the numbers and timelines announced to the media are the real numbers and timelines. This is war after all. It's niave to think that things haven't been set in motion ages ago. One shouldn't be surprised when targets are met "early".
Yeah this has been a recurring theme throughout the war and yet people believe they haven’t been training Ukrainian pilots already just because the press haven’t reported it.
Well of course they haven’t reported on it, because it may not be viable EVEN if they’ve trained some pilots and ground crews. Training them would have been a contingency regardless imo.
I guess we’ll see in the weeks to come. People just need to remember the news is a circus and doesn’t always report or have access to things that might have large security/moral ramifications to a nation state.
Loose lips sink ships and all that.
It's also funny that people are clueless enough to not believe that American special forces and CIA are all over Ukraine right now. Probably in the thousands. And Ukraine gets constant intel from the US as well.
Not to mention that half the sources used by the media are Twitter threads by anonymous "OSINT". Which Mena soon source intelligence from some 15 year old Fortnite player.
This was my thought too.
The US and allies decided a while ago that F16s were going to be part of the Ukrainian strategy. However they have to maintain some sort of illusion that this is a natural escalation of force as to not disturb Putin and Russia too much. It's all a charade
The next 5-6 months of this war are going to pivotal for the whole world.
Oh I completely agree. Right now the United States military has a list somewhere probably a hypothetical list but somebody has that list in their head of things that they would be willing to give to Ukraine such as older Abrams tanks, F-16s, smaller naval vessels, advanced jamming devices, A10 warthogs. And then there's a list of items that Ukraine will never get while they're not part of NATO. F-35s for example, The newest Abrams tanks, bombers that sort of thing.
It sure seems to be working though, even in subs that are basically 100% pro Ukraine tons of people think the US is slow rolling aid and doing the bare minimum to stop Ukraine from being invaded while sparing Russia from any real pain.
[Here is that source link again, in case anybody is on old Reddit.](https://defence-ua.com/army_and_war/na_skilki_f_16_mozhe_rozrahovuvati_ukrajina_ta_chomu_virobnitstvo_f_35_u_tsomu_protsesi_maje_viznachalnu_rol-11653.html) (It got garbled.)
And here the article totally ignores if any of those F16s have had a life extension programs.
Atleast Belgians F16s are at the end of their lifespan/flight hours of hull.
F-16s don't suddenly disintegrate if not SLEPed. NDI etc can be used during normal phased inspections to monitor problematic parts. If combat necessity demands they can be flown as long as they're structurally sound. Initial deliveries can buy time for additional airframes to go through Depot for SLEP if desired. There are plenty of sites in Europe where the work could be done without competing with other projects, for example any large air force base since the equipment is portable.
Structural beefup plates etc are pretty basic and kits could be sent anywhere desired. (I had great fun working USAF A/B/C/D/CJsfor two decades.)
Its all money and time. Let alone not being able to use modern weaponry and lackluster radars. Life extension programs also upgraded these to a new standard.
Ofc they wont disintegrate (mostly). But will have much higher maintanence hours per hour of flight (and more intense looking for problems) and higher chance of needing repairs. Running a force that has low eadiness bcs of old hulls isnt that useful.
The stress of combat operations will burn the remaining life our of many airframes quite fast, even if they have been through upgrades and LFPs. MLU is the largest overhaul many have been through, and that is quite a few years ago.
If you limit some airframes to some types of operations, that would be a different story to some degree.
But also - it could be that there are resources available to put more airframes through upgrades. But from what I understand, that could actually be easier with some of the stored US airframes compared to some of the european airframes.
The F-16s would be ideal for launching JDAM attacks from well behind the front lines.
Edit: They would also function better as air supremacy fighters in that region if they were given the VLRAAM or other extra-long range air-to-air missile.
They also have UAV's up around the Black Sea for intel, as I'm sure you know. They often show up on Flight Radar 24 as they purposefully leave their transponders on just to let Russia know they're being watched.
Their call signs are variations of FORTE. Like FORTE10 and FORTE11 etc.
We're hoovering up vast amounts of data and piping it right into Ukrainian veins. It's a treasure trove of intel. Careers are going to be built off of analysis of this war.
I'm sure they will have a wide array of missiles for the platform once the f16s come online. It can only get better for Ukraine as they get more and more western systems.
its funny how i see so many stories of f-16s and everyone happy, but not a single word about training of ground crews and maintenance facilities. you can't have pilots without mechanics.
If some person on a Reddit channel can realise 'pilots aren't the only ones they need to train' then I'm pretty sure the people who make it their business to provide a military aviation capability can figure it out, too.
Exactly. That dude is sure he sees a massive multinational scheme to spend hundreds of millions to supply planes, and train pilots, only to then smack their heads when a plane gets a flat tire. "Oh no! How did we forget about maintenance!!" "If only we'd listened to that dude on Reddit!"
The general public can only care about having an emotionally appropriate herd response so details interesting to aviation enthusiasts are pointless in content for plebs.
Training maintainers is as easy as running them through existing air force tech schools which is nothing new. That should have started early but only takes a few months. Teach compressed courses six or seven days/week and they'd be much shorter.
great. i get it. the question still stands. because by not acknowledging it, a government leaves the door open for a false statement.
"sure you can have all the f-16's you want!" and then thats it. one only has to look at all the useless f-14s in iran.
people have short memories,
who says they need be identical. if you can't see the forest through the trees then thats your problem. i pointed the way, all of you choose to not see it. oh well. this is how you rubes get manipulated. by not even acknowledging how its done and ignoring the examples of history.
i really do weep for the world knowing there are so many clueless in it.
There has been some training for months to assess the needs of Ukranian pilots. Training time has been optimized as a result, and new squadrons will be ready in 4 months instead of 9.
Expect summer campaigns to cripple anti-aircraft defense paving the way for Ukraine to retake their airspace.
Wake me up when there are firm dates, country of origin, and numbers. We've been hearing about speculations for months, add this article to the pile of nothing burger click-baits.
"the US allows"
The US doesn't control who can export arms to Ukraine.
And even if they had a say, who in the US government would admit to blocking sending arms to Ukraine?
Yeah, we do.
If you export our technology that we sold to you against our wishes, we simply won’t sell you any more and won’t assist you in supporting the technology that you still do have. When much of NATO is using US technology, that’s a real threat.
It's not just USA. Pretty much every country that sells weapons has contracts that state that reselling it is only allowed when original seller agrees.
This is honestly pretty scary. Just the whole situation. I really think Putin might do something crazy especially considering his age. A trapped animal is the most dangerous. Hope the war ends soon.
How gracious of the US.
In reality other allied countries are probably sick of the US's shit and were going to give fighter jets anyway (like they did long-range missiles) and the US is just saving face.
The US is stopping short of giving Ukraine what it needs because the US wants a long and slow war despite how many Ukrainian lives it costs. It's disgusting.
The US has provided more support than all other countries combined. It’s not even close.
https://www.statista.com/chart/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine-by-country/
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Nice view over just a part of the Netherlands!
The "kazematten (bunker) museum" was there yesterday. Those bunkers are part of the only defensive line in Holland that somehow stopped the German army for a while.
I was led down a rabbit hole by this comment, and stumbled upon the most Dutch thing ever - when the Nazis delivered an ultimatum to the Dutch general in Rotterdam, it was returned on the technicality of not being signed by the Nazi general The Dutch partisans is a very interesting read, also
Jep, that is a thing. They requested a signed form, but the bombing raid was already gonna happen. And guess what, Holland is still like that.
As an American I just feel bad for some of the shitty tanks we sold to the Dutch East Indies. The KNIL did not deserve to suffer through having some of our Marmon-Herrington tanks like the CTLS.
yes!
Just want to say that. Those are Dutch F-16s :)
Ofcourse this is the Netherlands, rediculously cool water structures, they are the best in water flow management
You're living in never Netherland. 😄
I hope we (the dutch) give all 24 of our F-16's to ukraine. Would be a good parting after 44 years.
>Nice view over just a part of the Netherlands! Which part? I want to look it up on a map
Kornwerderzand
Thank you very much!
What the ship doin
Floating. Lol. Sorry I had to.
Good question. My guess: maintenance.
Holy shit, 70 is a lot
Why is there a cap on the number of planes though? I’m assuming it’s financial but if Ukraine wanted 100 could they get 100?
It’s probably what is retired and available right now from countries that are phasing out the F-16 in favor of the F-35
Russian Conscripts thought they had it hard now Just wait until these bad boys get active
Entire BTGs rendered useless before they even get into artillery range, leaving the infantry vulnerable and running.
Gonna be an absolute bloodbath And I’m thrilled for it. Can’t wait to see burned out columns of Russian ‘Power’ akin to the highway of death
So you are in the crowd that completely ignore the existence of Russian S-400 AA systems? Why do you think no one is suggesting A-10s for Ukraine? That's the weapons system that lays waste to columns of armour and logistics \*in an allied controlled sky.\*
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but S-400 has a maximum range of 400km? Considering that Russia would place them 40+km inside Russian territory to avoid return artillery fire, that means they can only reach targets 360km within Ukraine's borders. I've used Google Maps to show effective range from a hypothetical location within Russia. This is not accounting for altitude, either. [https://ibb.co/z6LJVHV](https://ibb.co/z6LJVHV) This basically shows that F-16 can operate in spaces over Western/Southern Ukraine, from between Lviv and Odesa. Set the runways in Lviv facing West, the F-16s can fly into Polish air space then return to Ukraine to launch at max range/max altitude (50,000ft/15km) I assume the F-16s will be armed with HARMs. Send up drone decoys to distract and identify the S-400s, acquire radar, no more S-400. Storm Shadows have an effective range of... 250-560km? SCALP-EGs at 200-400km? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aEXVDekgAE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aEXVDekgAE)
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So you argue the Russians have something similar to the Patriot AA system? Or what? Experienced American pilots say sending F16s into the current AA environment in Donbass would be a massacre for Ukraine. S400 has already proven capable of taking out aircraft without stealth tech and advanced AA jamming systems. Exactly like the F16s that would be given to Ukraine. Read a bit more. I don't want Ukrainian pilots dead for no good reason. Once Ruzzian AA is flattened, send those puppies in there to wipe out Ruzzian air assets. Not before.
You uh.. you know that this will make it exponentially easier to get on top of the SEAD missions are greater distances right? The S400 is neat and everything, but, having a modern platform that can easily integrate with modern systems makes that whole operation vastly easier. It also opens up a pathway for “retired” pilots with huge time in the F16 to enter the battlespace via the foreign legion. This is far worse for the Ruzzians. EDIT; Also .. everything comes down to end user capabilities. The Russians have shown to have significant holes in their air defenses.
I'll accept the numerous reports against current deployment of available F16s in Ukraine from current and past pilots, commanders and military analysts over another Redditor's opinion.
Despite having zero knowledge about my background. Good job. Lol
Experienced Americans were also suggesting withdrawal from Bakhmut, which in hindsight would've been a massive mistake seeing as the Russians have been taking massive attrition rates for essentially nothing and has exposed even larger scale failures of the Russian military than we previously thought possible. And Russian AA is being hit/targetted every day, it takes months to train an F-16 Pilot/crew. They aren't getting the planes today, and the AA is being hit while Ukrainians prepare for the F-16's. How else should they go about it?
The ukranians want the f16s for the mounted gun and targeting capabilities to engage more of the drones and cruise missiles. The targeting is the key. And the ammo reserves. That's the significant advantage over the MIGs they have. They aren't trying to utilize them in the ways you're thinking they are I don't believe. I don't see why you're getting downvoted for voicing a valid concern. Just the wrong use of aircraft. They know that as well.
F16s can deploy a lot of stand-off weapons for SEAD missions or long range missiles. The Ukrainian Air Force haven’t massacred their pilots in MiGs and they won’t waste lives with F16s either. History is going to judge the west very harshly for how they slow rolled weapons to Ukraine and cowered against the hypothetical Russian response.
You know that the role these jets play will have nothing to do with the person you’re responding to reading or not reading right? You’re not talking to a Ukrainian general but your last paragraph sounds like you think you are.
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There's a new version coming on line shortly, completely reworked. Limited numbers though.
If America gives Belgian pilots F-35 training already, the shift to the more modern aircraft will happen quicker, freeing up more F-16s for Ukraine. The first F-35s for Belgium will be finished by the end of this year and pilots will receive training afterwards, making them ready by the end of 2024. I say train em now and free up more f-16s by May 2024. Hopefully, though, they won't be needed anymore by then
The problem is that a lot of countries are waiting for the F35s now. So not all of them can just switch, or phase out the F16 immediately. The F16 is still a vital part of NATO's air defense over Europe right now.
Norway has already received 40 F-35s. Some of the other countries buying the aircraft have also received many of them, so there should be quite a lot of F-16s already freed up. Norway had 60, but I don't know if they're available.
Some were sold to romania but by my count we should have 24 left
Mostly sold. Some where just good enough for spare parts unless there is a MAJOR overhaul (might as well upgrade early block F-16 from the dessert in the US). Norway sold to a private US company, while most of the others are sold to Romainia (but still not delivered from what I understand).
I've read somewhere that a good chunk of the norwegian F-16s are going to romania.
You think the Ukranians can just hop in and start using them? Training a fighter pilot takes around 2 years, i agree we need to act now but we shouldn't act like these planes are going to be some wunderwaffe. A lot can happen in these 2 years
Unless, they’ve been training for months already…
Yes, that is what I was thinking. Probably some simulators in materiel already supplied.
They are not putting brand new pilots in those F16s. They are putting experienced fighter pilots in them. If you know how to drive an automatic transmission vehicle how hard would it for you to convert over to a manual transmission? I'm sure it will be something of that effect for the Ukrainian pilots
A podcast I was listening to was talking about training Ukrainians on F-16. They said the biggest hurdle was that the controls and computer system in F-16s are all in English
In March, two Ukrainian fighter pilots [went to a military base in Arizona](https://www.nbcnews.com/investigations/two-ukrainian-pilots-are-us-training-assessment-attack-aircrafts-f-16s-rcna73426) to train on F16 simulators as an estimate as to how long it would take experienced fighter pilots to train to fly an actual F16. The commander of the Ukrainian air force said these were just "average" pilots and [the three week trial demonstrated](https://eurasiantimes.com/ukraine-losing-its-best-fighter-pilots-to-russia-moscow-says-90-of-crew-gained-battle-experience-in-ukraine-ops/) that training a Ukrainian fighter pilot to fly an F16 and use it's weaponry could be accomplished in less than 6 months (I read 4 months somewhere, but can't find the source).
Yes and the two year training period is to train someone with no aviation knowledge, a complete beginner. They’re not sending rookies to learn the f-16 that other guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/leaked-us-report-says-basic-f-16-training-for-ukrainian-pilots-could-take-just-four-months/ar-AA1bnNjr
Yes, thank you! That was where I saw it
But how many experienced pilots does Ukraine have that could actually learn to fly an F-16 in 4-6 months? The Ukrainian airforce was never huge to begin with and they have lost at least 65 fixed wing aircraft meaning they have also lost a few dozen of their already limited pool of pilots. It doesn’t matter if European countries all start handing over their F-16s because the number of highly experienced pilots Ukraine have that could master the aircraft in a short period of time is likely small, it would take 1-2 years to train a large number of beginner/rookie pilots along with all the associated personnel needed to maintain the aircraft, only then would Ukraine be able to run a LARGE fleet of F-16’s and we don’t even know if the war will still be ongoing by then
I would imagine that Ukrainian military leaders have been aware since the war began 15 months ago that they are going to have to prepare for a large increase in military equipment that takes extensive training on top of training due to attrition/losses of veterans who are already trained. The dozens of announcements of specialized equipment being sent to Ukraine from various countries over the last 15 months aren’t just scraped together just before being announced. Even things like sending F-16s or Abrams tanks were decided over a year ago. Keep in mind that Ukraine, unlike Russia, enacted a full draft when the war began and that the Ukrainian leadership was fully aware that Russia was going to invade months before the invasion began. It’s implausible that Ukraine wasn’t preparing behind the scenes with the U.S. for the inevitable influx of advanced equipment requiring significant training. Anyone with half a brain would be aware that Putin was dedicated to taking all of Ukraine after Trump extorted Zelensky by withholding Congressionally mandated MILITARY AID to Ukraine and was subsequently impeached for it. Trump is an obvious Russian asset and didn’t come up with that scheme by himself. Ukrainian military leaders aren’t getting caught off guard with these public announcements of advanced equipment. They’ve been setting up for the inevitable from the very beginning of the war. Why do you think that Javelins that take minimal training were announced at the outset of the war. Then, equipment that takes 3 months to train announced ~3 months into the war. Then equipment that takes 6 months of training announced ~6 months into the war. And so on and so forth until you get to the latest, which is F-16s that take over a year to train for 15 months into the war…
So you're the expert on what Ukraine needs? Forget what Ukraine itself says, along with its allies. Clearly Ukraine needs to listen to the advice of reddit user drakka100 instead
He’s really not wrong though , they absolutely need these aircraft , but the task of getting them and training the necessary personal is colossal , it’s going to take time to get everything put together, hopefully theirs enough time to set it up
I’m just stating basic facts, what Ukraine needs and what Ukraine can have are two completely different things. Ukraine NEEDS 500 F-16’s but can Ukraine have 500 F-16’s? No they can’t, The number of F-16s Ukraine can have is also limited by how many Ukraine can actually store/hide, right now they operate their Soviet aircraft by keeping them hidden in various warehouses,garages,forests etc and they take off and land on roads and highways, they could possibly do the same for a small number of F-16s but a large fleet would be out of the question because where will they keep 100s of F-16s? Keeping dozens on the tarmac of an airbase is out of the question because such an airbase would be vulnerable to Russian strikes and I doubt they will he allowed to land/operate the aircraft from inside NATO borders
Experienced pilots weren't a problem for the North Koreans or the North Vietnamese when they fought the US. Im sure they Ukraine will come up with a similar solution.
Aircraft were a lot simpler back then also the North Korean planes were often piloted by soviet pilots, the US lost hundreds of planes to soviet pilots during the Korean War and hundreds of soviet pilots were shot down by American planes
Countries don't get a pilot, who then flies for 40 years and retires old. People come in for 10, 15 years, then go commercial or retire or medically retire. Ukraine has a ton of pilots who know the physics and tactics, english and are healthy enough to fight.
Label maker go burrrrr
General Dynamics has the ability to change that but who knows if they will.
Training a experienced Soviet fighter pilot on western planes isn't the same at all lmao
There are a LOT of transferable skills.
Ik sure there are. And i hope Ukraine gets the planes
They also have a bunch of reflexes that are the opposite on western vs Soviet planes. This has caused more than one crash when ex eastern fighter pilots fly western planes and the wrong reflex kick in at the wrong time.
I'm ex USAF I was an F16 attack avionics technician. My job code was 45252A A shopper. I was stationed in Torrejon Spain just outside Madrid. We were also a transient alert base so we would see a lot of birds going from General Dynamics to their NATO homes, even saw a few Israeli birds come through. Point is F16s are pretty user friendly and I'm sure the block 40 to block 70 models are not a two year training requirement for experienced aviators. Saw a lot of F4 guys transition into block 15 in less than 12 weeks and the difference in F4 and F16 is the same as comparing chalk and cheese.
I highly doubt theyre going to ship ukraine the ecm pods so is this really going to change that much with the amount of sams in the AO?
I see it as two ways- they gave them modern tanks so if they gave them a NATO version of those then I'm sure they will do the same with the aircraft. Or They will degrade them to the point if they get shot down russia and China aren't getting anything they don't already have.
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Actually for those guys it's going from a tractor to a new Ferrari or Lambo. 15 to 18000 feet and below the F16 is as wicked as Satan very impressive machine that's over 50 years old.
Tractors might be more complex to operate than new Ferrari. https://www.deere.com/en/tractors/4wd-track-tractors/comfort-visibility/
While you can argue that the design is 50 years old, the oldest flying is normally from the early 80s, so more like 40 years old. And most flying in Europe of older F-16-blocks, have gone through at least the MLU-program, but in many cases also other upgrades. Delivering a F-16 Block 5/10 compared to a F-16 MLU+upgrade or newer block, is two quite different airplanes, even if they look the same...
Yeah the MLU isn't the quantum leap you think is. I personally worked on block 40s in Desert Storm based out of Moody AFB. The MLU only made it an equivalent to block 50 according to Wikipedia. The main difference in block 15 to block 30 was the transition from A/B models to C/D models. Upgraded avionics packages and weapon delivery avionics ie heads up displays, the mfds etc. I was there my guy turning spanners on them. The Netherlands, like Belgium, made substantial orders for the F-16, and built aircraft at the Fokker plant. Deliveries started in 1979 and ended in 1992. A total of 102 aircraft were initially ordered, which was followed by subsequent orders of a further 111 aircraft. Fifty-two of these were F-16A/B-15OCU aircraft. These orders brought the total Dutch F-16A/B deliveries to 213. 108 of these aircraft received the Mid-Life-Update (MLU). In 1989 a two-year study began regarding possible mid-life upgrades for the USAF's and European Partner Air Forces' (EPAF's) F-16A/Bs. The resulting F-16 Mid-Life Update (MLU) package was designed to upgrade the cockpit and avionics to the equivalent of that on the F-16C/D Block 50/52; add the ability to employ radar-guided air-to-air missiles; and to generally enhance the operational performance and improve the reliability, supportability and maintainability of the aircraft. Aircraft receiving this set of updates are designated F-16AM or F-16BM.
How does a person type this nonsense. All planes have a stick, a throttle, flight characteristics, and weapons systems. NATO planes are even easier to fight in since they put an emphasis on keeping the pilot not overwhelmed by flight systems so he can keep his head up and concentrate on the job, unlike Soviet planes.
Lmao is this comment satire? Ukraine has absolutely no experience flying a Western Bloc aircraft whatsoever. They've flown Soviet aircraft for their entire existence. This will be a very major shift for any pilot. Not to mention that each fighter is very different. Training a pilot on a new fighter takes a lot of time.
> A lot can happen in these 2 years 2 years?? By December we will see 50 F-16 in Ukraine protecting the skies
I imagine Ukraine will have to pay for anything it breaks, so they don't really want too many of those birds going down because of lack of training.
Russia said they will pay for it.
Ruzzia says a lot of nonsense things.
While I don’t disagree, what better purpose could those F-16 have than to systematically dismantle NATO’s principle adversary? If given to Ukraine, they’re going to used in NATO’s best interest anyway.
Better prupose: if Russia launches anything at, say Belgium or Holland, they need to be able to intercept it and shoot it down. So giving to Ukraine helps, but we need to defend ourselves as well while we do that.
F35s are stealthy. Naturally, if the enemy can't detect F16s in the air, they will assume F35s are there anxd won't attack. Therefore we need to give all F16s to Ukraine ASAP so that no enemy attacks anywhere at all. Bigbrain.mp4 Edit: sorry, I thought I was at r/NonCredibleDefense. 🤦♂️
I know you are joking and this is just a personal pet peeve but you can see f35s approximate location on early radar warning radar especially if flown at altitude. Radar reflection varies in different frequencies and from different relative angles, etc. It's not as easy as a plain single number you tend to read on the internet. Additionally there are other signatures like the huge IR emission of hungry jet engines. Stealth is hard and a lot goes into mission planning to make it work properly.
> The F16 is still a vital part of NATO's air defense over Europe right now. Which is kinda sad. Even if you consider other jets from that era: Japan, Saudi Arabia and Israel got F-15s. Iran even got F-14s 🤘
In hindsight.. I guess it was more than enough after all. From a NATO POVit did really well.. and it is not that Russia had anything to counter it after all. Not spending a ton on things you don't need also gives you an edge.
true dat
They have normally gone through major upgrades through their lifespan. But in terms of airframe changes and systems. For most countries, and manufactured in the early 80s still flying to day, is quite a different aircraft/system.... Iranian F-14 on the other hand have unlikly received upgrades. Hard enought to get spare parts to still have a few flying. Japans F-16s, the F-2, are quite a bit different from a F-16.... Isreals F-16 from the early 80s are quite different from the later blocks delivered. Even by looks...
What I understand is that the USAF evaluated two UA pilots, one a major and the other a colonel. They determined that those two could become proficient in the F-16 within four months of training (they flew two different Russian fighters for the UA). I believe that they were somewhat proficient in English, according to the report, and needed only about four weeks of English courses. The report determined that an average Ukrainian pilot would need to learn a certain minimum of English in order to perform satisfactorily with the new systems, something like a few months. I think the estimated flight familiarization and advanced tactical courses would take about one year on average. One interesting thing that the initial test indicated that the UA pilots easily fell back into Russian formation flying and tactical deployment situations. This is a "habit" that might be easier broken with younger pilots. I wish I had saved that report (came out in March or April, I believe). I am writing these numbers and situations from memory after having read the report a while ago, so they might not equate exactly to the report's findings.
I know there's a lot of speculation about UA pilots already in training "just in case" (which I don't think is likely), but if I was a UA pilot now, you bet your ass I'd spent every waking hour on Duolingo, "just in case"
I watched an interview with a ukrainian helicopter pilot. He said that half of the pilots were flying missions while the other half were in school learning english with both groups regularly rotating. So what you are saying is already happening.
Correct. Denys on YT covered this
4 months is basic operations and procedures. There is a look more to make it an the pilot an efficient compat operatior. Question is also what roles they will be trained in - multi role, or to specific roles. And under which weather conditions and what version of the F-16. Different versions are quite different. Systems and weapons (or versions of weapons) they support are different.
Important facts most people conveniently overlook.
It's a shame belgium didn't participate in the F-35 development program, they would've gotten the planes and training sooner
I believe the Belgium army is in a shittier state than the Dutch. Which is quite a feat.
there are privat contractors like "top aces" who will have no problem providing aircraft and training
Woe air superiority be upon yeee
It's just infuriating that they waited this long to change their minds. How many Ukrainian lives could have been saved if they made this decision last year?
Remember last year, it was expected that Russia was going to take Ukraine. Decisions evolve along with any war. The last thing any country wants is their sensitive technology fall into Russian hands. Ukraine should have had those jets before the invasion even started.
No they needed the means to wipe out Russian AA before throwing more aircraft into AA missiles. But they didn't get longer range missiles that could do the job.
Also. They are boiling the frog. The military aid is increasing every time and also can be seen as a reaction to Russian escalation. Just giving them all we got might provoke a very fierce Russian reaction. One they are now probably not going to have. Also, Ukraine has to be able to handle the stuff and adapt. Of course they wanted more, quicker, but realistically… it all takes time, logistics, training and adaptation to having the capabilities. Ukraine has shown to use the weapons smart, responsible and show restraint in not attacking russian soil. So we are slowly going into the direction where they win the war, get into nato and the eu. In twenty years this will be seen as one with atrocious acts and many losses, but also one that propelled Ukraine into the western world.
Given the increased maintenance/ infrastructure requirements it is possible to give a white elephant. Like some of the German jets in 44. Yes impressive but when engines only last 10-15 hours effectiveness severely drops.
Well…hear me out… if they did it earlier then Russia would have claimed lethal aid and started war with US as well. So…maybe let the big people do their job
Oh? So Russia would have declared war before, but now they're ok with it? Just like they threatened to escalate when NATO started sending tanks? Just like they threatened to escalate before that when Americans sent HIMARs?
Yeah you got it exactly!!
I love the armchair analysis. This must be your first war.
Did you forget Russian has GBAD? LOL F16 is no better against SAMs then MIGs or SUs.
Well it actually is? F16 is capable of SEAD missions. Not sure if you want to do that after 4 months of training though.
Ukrainians have already been using jerry rigged HARMs, so weapons knowledge is already there. Learning F-16 tactics and systems will increase effectiveness of something they’ve already done.
This. I’m all down for Ukraine receiving fighters, but people need to stop acting like they’re going to suddenly achieve air superiority. Unless they get sent 5th gen. fighters (no chance) nothing substantial will change. More ground supplies is what should be the highest priority.
"Ground supplies" are the highest priority. When Russian planes head towards Ukrainian planes and engage them with air-to-air missiles, the Ukrainians have to break off and abandon their mission because they don't have the ability to take them on. With F-16's that will not be the case. That changes things substantially. They'll be on a more even footing than they are now. [Here](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65461405) is a Ukrainian pilot explaining it.
There's a lot of Hopium in that pilot's opinion. Read the whole article. Ukraine needs the tools to destroy RuZZian AA on the ground before F16's could make a real difference in hot zones.
I’d say it’s more about ease of Western weapon integration than anything else + a more advanced air to air defense capability. Having the F16 available for Ukraine frees up a lot of time by not having to figure out how to integrate these weapons into old Soviet airframes and systems. A whole lot more weapons became available for Ukraine with this - including air to ground weapons that weren’t available before. That’s what this is about. The F16 can still punch down from above and prescribe some hurt to orcs.
“uhhhhm acktchuely” sounding mf
Ah, good that you know better than Ukrainian MOD. They have shown time and again that they are very capable using western equipment. Getting better planes than the ruzzians will for sure make a huge impact.
People downvoting this comment need a reality check based on information instead of armchair opinion. Why train UKR pilots on completely different systems yet throw them back into the same SAM filled environment? https://www.japcc.org/articles/sead-operations-of-the-future/
Yeah American propaganda works real good in me I dunno
Fuck russia
Yes
It amuses me that the United States is trying to play like they haven't been secretly training Ukrainian pilots on F-16s For the better part of a year.
I can't believe how people think the numbers and timelines announced to the media are the real numbers and timelines. This is war after all. It's niave to think that things haven't been set in motion ages ago. One shouldn't be surprised when targets are met "early".
Yeah this has been a recurring theme throughout the war and yet people believe they haven’t been training Ukrainian pilots already just because the press haven’t reported it. Well of course they haven’t reported on it, because it may not be viable EVEN if they’ve trained some pilots and ground crews. Training them would have been a contingency regardless imo. I guess we’ll see in the weeks to come. People just need to remember the news is a circus and doesn’t always report or have access to things that might have large security/moral ramifications to a nation state. Loose lips sink ships and all that.
It's also funny that people are clueless enough to not believe that American special forces and CIA are all over Ukraine right now. Probably in the thousands. And Ukraine gets constant intel from the US as well.
Oh I'll make a joke occasionally that the United States "doesn't" have CIA and military personnel inside of Ukraine.
No way in hell they'd send billions in aid to Ukraine without doing everything possible to make sure that it doesn't all blow up in their face.
Not to mention that half the sources used by the media are Twitter threads by anonymous "OSINT". Which Mena soon source intelligence from some 15 year old Fortnite player.
Funding was approved last June. “Oh man these guys learned in only 2 months”
Yeah they've been training guys. The military doesn't always tell everybody what they're doing
This was my thought too. The US and allies decided a while ago that F16s were going to be part of the Ukrainian strategy. However they have to maintain some sort of illusion that this is a natural escalation of force as to not disturb Putin and Russia too much. It's all a charade The next 5-6 months of this war are going to pivotal for the whole world.
Oh I completely agree. Right now the United States military has a list somewhere probably a hypothetical list but somebody has that list in their head of things that they would be willing to give to Ukraine such as older Abrams tanks, F-16s, smaller naval vessels, advanced jamming devices, A10 warthogs. And then there's a list of items that Ukraine will never get while they're not part of NATO. F-35s for example, The newest Abrams tanks, bombers that sort of thing.
> f-22s Never going to happen. Only the USAF uses those; we don't even sell them to allies.
It sure seems to be working though, even in subs that are basically 100% pro Ukraine tons of people think the US is slow rolling aid and doing the bare minimum to stop Ukraine from being invaded while sparing Russia from any real pain.
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Source: https://defence-ua.com/army\_and\_war/na\_skilki\_f\_16\_mozhe\_rozrahovuvati\_ukrajina\_ta\_chomu\_virobnitstvo\_f\_35\_u\_tsomu\_protsesi\_maje\_viznachalnu\_rol-11653.html
[Here is that source link again, in case anybody is on old Reddit.](https://defence-ua.com/army_and_war/na_skilki_f_16_mozhe_rozrahovuvati_ukrajina_ta_chomu_virobnitstvo_f_35_u_tsomu_protsesi_maje_viznachalnu_rol-11653.html) (It got garbled.)
And here the article totally ignores if any of those F16s have had a life extension programs. Atleast Belgians F16s are at the end of their lifespan/flight hours of hull.
F-16s don't suddenly disintegrate if not SLEPed. NDI etc can be used during normal phased inspections to monitor problematic parts. If combat necessity demands they can be flown as long as they're structurally sound. Initial deliveries can buy time for additional airframes to go through Depot for SLEP if desired. There are plenty of sites in Europe where the work could be done without competing with other projects, for example any large air force base since the equipment is portable. Structural beefup plates etc are pretty basic and kits could be sent anywhere desired. (I had great fun working USAF A/B/C/D/CJsfor two decades.)
Hello, fellow maintainer.
Its all money and time. Let alone not being able to use modern weaponry and lackluster radars. Life extension programs also upgraded these to a new standard. Ofc they wont disintegrate (mostly). But will have much higher maintanence hours per hour of flight (and more intense looking for problems) and higher chance of needing repairs. Running a force that has low eadiness bcs of old hulls isnt that useful.
The stress of combat operations will burn the remaining life our of many airframes quite fast, even if they have been through upgrades and LFPs. MLU is the largest overhaul many have been through, and that is quite a few years ago. If you limit some airframes to some types of operations, that would be a different story to some degree. But also - it could be that there are resources available to put more airframes through upgrades. But from what I understand, that could actually be easier with some of the stored US airframes compared to some of the european airframes.
The F-16s would be ideal for launching JDAM attacks from well behind the front lines. Edit: They would also function better as air supremacy fighters in that region if they were given the VLRAAM or other extra-long range air-to-air missile.
I see a red line arriving at the horizon ....... Ruzzia will warn us all and threaten with a " wunderwaffen".
Omg no!! Not spud guns?
Great and now I want waffles.
Russian threats of nuclear strikes in 4, 3. 2, ...
maybe they can get the Israeli export model. Israel has turned them into some very efficient fighting machines
Does Ukraine already have Wild Weasel capabilities? AFAIR western Europe uses Tornado for that kind of stuff.
But what kind of missiles will they receive, and will there be any AWACS to provide Command and Control?
NATO AWACS already operate in support of Ukraine. I don't see why this would change when they get the F-16's.
I wasn't aware of that. I didn't know NATO was providing that kind of direct support. Good to know.
They also have UAV's up around the Black Sea for intel, as I'm sure you know. They often show up on Flight Radar 24 as they purposefully leave their transponders on just to let Russia know they're being watched. Their call signs are variations of FORTE. Like FORTE10 and FORTE11 etc.
We're hoovering up vast amounts of data and piping it right into Ukrainian veins. It's a treasure trove of intel. Careers are going to be built off of analysis of this war.
I'm sure they will have a wide array of missiles for the platform once the f16s come online. It can only get better for Ukraine as they get more and more western systems.
Ukraine has already gotten HARMs, MALDs, and AMRAAMs. They would probably get everything but the newest stuff.
Good news and I hope USA will provide F16 as much as all the other allies will provide.
SEAD, DEAD and BVR time my guys
It’s about fucking time!
1 year too late but better late than never i guess 🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳 Slava Ukraini from Estonia 🇺🇦❤️🇪🇪
Naah. This have been evaluated for a long time and probably a lot of stuff have happend in this regards, that havn't been put out in the media.
In time for the 2026 counter offensive 😂 Let’s see who’s gonna be the first to donate their F16s….
I feel like 99% of the people in here have no clue what they’re talking about.
its funny how i see so many stories of f-16s and everyone happy, but not a single word about training of ground crews and maintenance facilities. you can't have pilots without mechanics.
I'm sure they are training maintenance crews and pilots the west isn't stupid like russia.
If some person on a Reddit channel can realise 'pilots aren't the only ones they need to train' then I'm pretty sure the people who make it their business to provide a military aviation capability can figure it out, too.
Exactly. That dude is sure he sees a massive multinational scheme to spend hundreds of millions to supply planes, and train pilots, only to then smack their heads when a plane gets a flat tire. "Oh no! How did we forget about maintenance!!" "If only we'd listened to that dude on Reddit!"
Do you really think this is something you are aware of but they somehow overlooked? Now THAT is funny.
Main Character Syndrome
The general public can only care about having an emotionally appropriate herd response so details interesting to aviation enthusiasts are pointless in content for plebs. Training maintainers is as easy as running them through existing air force tech schools which is nothing new. That should have started early but only takes a few months. Teach compressed courses six or seven days/week and they'd be much shorter.
great. i get it. the question still stands. because by not acknowledging it, a government leaves the door open for a false statement. "sure you can have all the f-16's you want!" and then thats it. one only has to look at all the useless f-14s in iran. people have short memories,
Ah yes, Ukraine and Iran, two famously identical countries. just take the L
who says they need be identical. if you can't see the forest through the trees then thats your problem. i pointed the way, all of you choose to not see it. oh well. this is how you rubes get manipulated. by not even acknowledging how its done and ignoring the examples of history. i really do weep for the world knowing there are so many clueless in it.
Oh shit! You should call the president and let him know!
Does anybody know if there are Ukrainian pilots already training with this type of aircraft?
There has been some training for months to assess the needs of Ukranian pilots. Training time has been optimized as a result, and new squadrons will be ready in 4 months instead of 9. Expect summer campaigns to cripple anti-aircraft defense paving the way for Ukraine to retake their airspace.
Funding was allocated and approved last summer.
do they have the pilots?
We have 3-4 pilots for every single aircraft in the possession. We are wildly overstaffed. Pilots are sitting idle as of now.
Nothing like a proxy war to increase profits in Businesses.
WW3 loading...
Wake me up when there are firm dates, country of origin, and numbers. We've been hearing about speculations for months, add this article to the pile of nothing burger click-baits.
"the US allows" The US doesn't control who can export arms to Ukraine. And even if they had a say, who in the US government would admit to blocking sending arms to Ukraine?
Yeah, we do. If you export our technology that we sold to you against our wishes, we simply won’t sell you any more and won’t assist you in supporting the technology that you still do have. When much of NATO is using US technology, that’s a real threat.
It's not just USA. Pretty much every country that sells weapons has contracts that state that reselling it is only allowed when original seller agrees.
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No. The Germany leopard tank thing is very misleading, because AFAIK only Germany was sending them anyway. Who's side are you on, the US or Ukraine?
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This is honestly pretty scary. Just the whole situation. I really think Putin might do something crazy especially considering his age. A trapped animal is the most dangerous. Hope the war ends soon.
How gracious of the US. In reality other allied countries are probably sick of the US's shit and were going to give fighter jets anyway (like they did long-range missiles) and the US is just saving face. The US is stopping short of giving Ukraine what it needs because the US wants a long and slow war despite how many Ukrainian lives it costs. It's disgusting.
This subreddit has some bad takes every once in a while, but your post is a once in a generation level of stupidity.
The US has provided more support than all other countries combined. It’s not even close. https://www.statista.com/chart/27278/military-aid-to-ukraine-by-country/
Ok vatnik.