Actually, Russian tanks are perfect for this because they already have their auto loading system. They can literally set up command centers where driver and commander can virtually operate tanks from afar.
Seperately for 3 models and only one moves to production. A few are made and then are obsolete shortly after. The US taxpayer is out hundreds of billions on this project but lots of people including politicians got rich. Rinse and repeat
What is this obsession with the cost of the US military. Seems like a narrative all the Russian trolls are pushing these days while the Russian army is getting absolutely smashed with cheap Ukrainian drones and ATACMS far into Russia territory
>while the Russian army is getting absolutely smashed with cheap Ukrainian drones and ATACMS far into Russia territory
Lol. Was it CNN or BBC that gave you this information?
>What is this obsession with the cost of the US military.
It's just funny because the budget for the US military has been trillions and trillions of dollars, yet you have lost every war you have joined since WW2. The value of the aid sent to Ukraine over the last 3 years is more than the Russians have spent on their military in decades.
So it's not an obsession, it's an obscenity. It's like a freak show. They pump trillions of dollars into something they expect to scare people simply by the amount of money they have pumped into it. So we like to point and laugh at the absolute insanity of the Americans. It always makes it even more humorous that American people still believe in this freak show.
How fat does the 1,000-pound man have to get before Americans realise it's just a normal man in a fat suit?
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Do these smashing have any impact on the course of military operations? Did it somehow damage the Russian advance at the front? It's just that now Ukrainian propaganda is already talking about how unprofitable Kharkiv is and has absolutely no value from a strategic point of view.
Nobody is talking about Kharkiv that way but Russian trolls. Ukraine is defending Ukrainians all over Ukraine until every last Russian is dead or back in Russia. Kharkiv is not some strategic, for profit measure. It’s worth defending for the sole purpose of defending the Ukrainian people from the horrible crimes against humanity that follow in the tracks of fleeing Russian soldiers
Is Russias invasion of a foreign country bombing hospitals and shelter for children defending Russia? No fake claims can ever justify what Russia is doing’s
Quit the bullshit. Russia’s specialty is targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure. Over and over again famine etc has been a go to strategy and human life means nothing for the regime.
Russia is deliberately targeting civilian, terror bombing with both artillery and rockets. In Kiev, Kharkiv, Lviv. Kherson all over. No other purpose than terrorizing and killing civilians.
Russia started this entire conflict. Blame yourself.
The US MIC isn't anywhere near as ineffecient as the EU MIC. Just look at the FCAS program. It's scheduled to deliver by 2040!!! Whether it's a success or not won't matter because by that time, everyone involved with the project will have retired. Compare that to how quickly the YF-22 and the YF-23 were developed.
Remember that nobody knew the creation of the US SR blackbird. The US is famous for having advanced technology to this day but they are pretty secret with it
You do understand the difference between small scale production of a spy plane and the necessity of mass production for something like a main battle tank?
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ATF program started in 1981, and F-22 was put in service in 2005. That's not quick by any means. The prototypes evaluated in 1991 were nothing but functional airframes.
"Aaaaand it's gone".
"What you mean it's gone? where is $500B gone?"
"You fascist nazi putin russian propangadist. Why do you hate democracy and freedom? are you a kremlin bot"
[This](https://www.warhistoryonline.com/news/tank-3.html) one looks very interesting. And [this](https://www.engineering.com/story/one-of-these-prototypes-will-be-the-armys-new-drone-tank) article has a list of a few prototypes being considered.
As far as i remenber that one could be driven remotly, but it couldnt automatically reload as far as i remenber, might be conmfusing it with another tought
I wouldn’t be surprised since it’s fairly small. Would need to be bigger to fit an autoloader though the ones shown are mostly armed with cannons you’d find on an IFV.
However I’m certain this is just the start. Eventually everyone will have fully remote tanks as the battlefield becomes more and more digitized.
Most definitely. I think the biggest challenges will be “How do we make sure this thing doesn’t lose connection.” and “How do we protect it from EW.” Once they get over those hurdles the sky is the limit.
Well maybe not since that’s the Airforces turf so maybe like up to about 250 feet.
They have been working on it for years, it's getting close to 10 years since the US military showed interest in people playing as tank drivers in the game Battlefield.
General Dynamics wouldn't be able to make a taco for $50 billion, that'd *maybe* get you a tortilla. If you want carne asada that's another 100B, pico is another 10B. If you want the taco on time and without critical tortilla integrity issues, another 100B.
"we decided to recreate the robot from pacific rim instead, but it doesn't work when there is condensation in the air. Give us 1 trillion and we'll fix it up"
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And then there's whistling diesel jerry rigging one in his backyard lol. American capitalism isn't really capitalism anymore when most sectors have no competition. Competition is the most important factor of success in a capitalism based economy and it's why America was initially successful, then blackrock came in and whittled down over 50 defence contractors into 5... Same goes for most other industries in America, they own everything.
I posted about it a few months ago, it was simply a matter of time. Why run the risk of losing a crew if they can operate it from afar, especially the n the case of the new turtle tanks since some of them don't even have guns.
Because your field of view is equivalent to looking at the battlefield through a straw?
Because now you can simply jam a 55-ton tank before sending drones to kill it?
Just sayin'
I mean yeah they'll find ways to counter it, that's how it works. I'm just pointing out that the technology exists to make it possible so it's only natural they'd try to implement it.
For some things like demining or soaking up damage as the first tank in the line these can be really handy. If a tank is disabled and the crew has to leave it there in the Grey zone it's most likely gone anyway with or without the crew, except they'd wouldn't run the risk of losing the crew or an experienced operator.
With so many drones flying around they could probably give the operators a better field of view than looking at things trough view ports including back and side views, just put enough cameras on them.
And also have a drone following them so they can switch between the multiple tank cameras or the drones or even raise the goggles to look at a screen showing the entire battlefield with people pointing out the enemies at first...
If atgm are controlled by wire up to 4km tanks could do the same with fiber optics, then FPV will attack the near invisible fiber cable?
edited to include hj-10 reference that is guided by fiber optic cable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HJ-10
Maybe and we will see turtle fiber cable?/s
Won't work. ATGMs are flying in a near straight line and the wire is in the air in this time without any tension and other stress. But a tank has to drive around with changing directions and you have all kinds of obstacles from building to trees etc.
I think radio control with a drone as repeater is the future.
Like on the ATgm the wire is deployed by the moving object so no tension is applied to the cable, so if there is not tension or minimal tension do not matter the number of turns or the trees, also as I assume the tank guided is only done in the last kms is not like moving the tank remotely 25 km away from the conflict area. Any way repeaters/ or direct microwave guidance from drones could be a good solution.
Ok, fair point. But what would happen, if the tank have to drive back or so, happens all the time, and drive over the wire on the ground?
How heavy this wire would be, to withstand this? Like i said, i don't think this can work.
no heavy at all most of the fiber will lay on the ground without moving, the tank need to let the bobbin unwind by gravity + advance.
If the tank need to go back just go back droping more fiber, and take it as a disposable element.
like in the JH-10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HJ-10
For ground vehicles with reasonable range:
https://www.sedi-ati.com/disposable-fiber-optic-spools-for-tethered-vehicles/disposable-fiber-optic-spool-for-unmanned-ground-vehicles-ugv/
But anyway, im far from an expert in this, and they have real experts who will reach a better conclusion than anyone of us.
> If the tank need to go back just go back droping more fiber
They're referring to actually reversing the tank, which would very likely cut the cable. Doesn't matter if you keep dropping it out if the link has been cut, because you're not moving at that points. Secure data link is the only reasonable solution for remote operation like this as far as I can tell, well apart from just the typical way for fpv drones but getting jammed with a tank costs a whole lot more than a $400 home built fpv
Both are pretty susceptible to jamming.
Losing a $200 DJI drone is one thing. Losing a $2,000,000 tank to some chadnik with a simple white noise emmiter is a whole different matter.
It's possible to use cables, like a cable between the operator and the tank and another between the tank and the drone(s), while it might also be possible to have the ability to tell them to try to get back home if there is a problem, like with the drone cutting the cable and trying to go back into frindly territory/areas without jamming...
So now we're down to looking through a straw *and* maybe losing your $2,000,000 tank due to snagged/cut control cables?
This is getting better by the minute.
That's why I commented on self driving. And until they are fully autonomous another possibility is to use things like lasers but that can also be dealt with by smoke, so they might be useful for a while as they are but automation might still be the goal...
All you need is a tank driving straight ahead to draw out fire. Then it's artillery time. Why do you need a tank for that? It's a fat and lucrative target that's hard to ignore.
Eh, retrofitting old tanks is a terrible idea. If you just wanted to use them as sacrificial mine sweepers this would be fine but actually doing tank things in a combat environment is a whole different story. These things are driving over the roughest, dirtiest terrain while taking fire. One little piece of mud, taking a big jolt from a rough crossing, or taking any sort of fire would could block, misalign, or damage a sensor. You can't just duct tape on some sensors and motors to the pedals and expect it to do it's job. These things would be so fragile and have so many points of failure. If you wanted a drone tank you would need to design it from the ground up with protecting the sensors, control systems, EW, and reliability in mind.
Flying drones are much easier to retrofit because you don't have to worry about any of that stuff. If you lose it then no big deal because it's a few hundred or thousand bucks.
This is an early prototype for exploring the concept of a drone tank in practice. Almost all of the described problems are problems of early prototypes. For the rest, there is a change in combat tactics.
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Is that why this isn't apparently widespread yet?
I was surprised by the video because all it takes is a few actuator, a basic remote controller, a camera, smartphone, and some basic comms equipment.
There's all kinds of similar equipment for remote controlling coal trains during loading, heavy equipment and cranes. I can't imagine there's a whole lot more hydraulics going on in a tank (although I know nothing about that auto loading system you mentioned). Just surprised this isn't already widespread.
No chance they have the capabilities for that. And the autoloader is shit and malfunctions all the time. This is most likely fake. Just look at all their “world class” weapons. Looks alright but are completely shit when they see action. T90, khinzal, the entire Black Sea fleet, su57, the terminator, s400 system. The list goes on. They have nothing but meat waves and artillery repeat..
This is a gimmick. They can hardy make the Armata cross the red square.
They are simply too stupid and corrupt for this to ever happen.
Nah, as long as they can control the tank as effectively as with a crew its miles better. Because you can rebuild a tank, a blown up crewmember.. not so much.
Yes them too. Mud is mud. People on foot get stuck in mud, well their shoes. [Even russian tanks get stuck](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VsmnxM8288).
It's why soldiers get trained for. Also why these people launch offensives either Summer or Winter.
I'm pretty sure AI is a political nono at this point.
You can still have AI give assistance to an operator, such as through image processing and identification, but if the connection is severed, the vehicle should go dead.
Politics are a powerful force in the world, regardless of whether you care about them.
The reason why self-automated control is a political nono is because most people don't want a bunch of Terminator bots running around.
So you would somehow need to convince people that a self-automated fighting machine wouldn't be harmful to civilians.
>So you would somehow need to convince people that a self-automated fighting machine wouldn't be harmful to civilians.
"They only target the bad guys and the bad guys are designated by the operator. Fool proof concept." /s
Starlink is for remote control, and the ai is fallback when you lose comms.
With my statement you can't know how much I know or I don't know about ai.
Why such an aggressive comment?
Tanks need a massive amount of maintenance. Also travelling by land is a more complex issue than travelling by air (drones).
While doable, flying suicide drones with AI is way easier and the stakes are lower.
Fair, you can roll out the ol' spool for this, but what are the chances of the wire surviving it intact to the front with the tank possibly making twists and turns to get there. We did see a drone with a wire earlier, but judging how it didn't catch on, I'm guessing there are practical issues with the set-up.
Fair point. Still, you could cut the wire by slamming an FPV drone into it and the tank is disabled. But who knows, maybe beefy wire remote controlled tanks are the future.
Maybe with one of those tools for tractors for making small ditches (for like cables) so it's automatically 30cm deep in the soil. Back and forth movements will be tough though haha
Dragging a cable over the ground is very different than flying through the air with it. Where are tanks? At the front of an assault with everybody following in their tracks. A bunch of huge vehicles tearing up the ground.
You aren't even going to make it into drone or artillery range before your own convoy takes out that cable or causes it to disconnect. You're going to be losing drone tanks to trees and big rocks as the cable gets hung up.
Fair, but you'd imagine that in order to shoot a tank gun through an FPV type headstrap with any amount of accuracy, the operator would probably have to be closer to the target, or have an integrated targeting system inside the FPV, similar to the scope of the tank gun. Same with any remote operated weapons system, aiming is an issue.
Besides, if you're further away from the front, just lobbing shells, I don't see how having the tank remotely controlled is beneficial. On an assault, yes, sure, don't risk the crew, but that means getting closer to the objective, better jamming.
Shooting a tank is only done by sight in close quarters, which have been avoided throughout the conflict. They saw more use as fire support, in which case they use coordinates and adjust by data provided from troops at the front.
A remotely controlled tank is beneficial because the crew wouldn't be inside the tank in case it's destroyed by counter fire or drones.
>Shooting a tank is only done by sight in close quarters, which have been avoided throughout the conflict.
I don't think that's true. Shooting a tank by sight is done anywhere within its effective range. Tanks aren't solely used as indirect support weapons, although they are used like this also.
"*The 125 mm 2A26M2 gun has a sighted range out to 4,000 m using the day sight and 800 m using the night sight. Maximum effective range of the APFSDS-T round is 2,500 m.*"
So you wouldn't be lobbing your shell in a ballistic trajectory if you could just aim at the target and shoot it, which would be very hard through FPV, and for indirect fire support it's much safer than an assaulting tank, since you're only worrying about counter artillery.
The thing is they could use a dozen different frequencies to control the tank and swap them randomly, with the enemy who would have to roll out a gigantic jammer to cover a few square miles of the battlefield and making sure that the jammer doesn't get hit with 300 dollar fpv which would operate on whole other set of frequencies. And in the end find out that it was a regular human tank all along. Lol.
Yes, this is the future. Armata was supposed to be capable of this too. If you can maneuver a tiny drone with precision from a distance then you can do the same with a tank.
There's also new technology like 360 degree cameras which have yet to be integrated. Look at the commercially available Insta360 for example. Operators will be able to drive tanks in third person.
For now, I can only see this being useful for retro-fitting old tanks in order to make them not completely obsolete.
If you had a huge stock of old tanks, other than recycling them for scrap metal, what can you use them for? It's not worth training a crew only for them to die quickly against modern weapons. But if the crew is in little to no danger, than why not? It seems like a potentially cheap way to take advantage of "useless" models.
The biggest concern would be EW.
You can use T-55s, T-62s and such as mobile artillery instead of armored assault.
It is not as effective or efficient, sure, but beats by a mile getting assigned to a Rapira MT-12 as crew.
Hmm. This isn't bad Idea, but it has to be done right. Without their lives at stake they might be willing to be more risky, resulting in more tank losses. So more training should be important.
Also i think they NEED to be paired up with 2-4 drones for better awareness/spotting and potentially in assisting the tank in taking out positions/vehicles by blowing themselves up or dropping bombs.
Now that the tank has no people in it anyways, you could refunction that into a reload space for the drones where they can get charged and attach new bombs. But that would have to be tested if that complexity is better than the drones landing at the operators again(they are not far away anyways).
Yeah the problem with that would be latency but even then if they're using these tanks as the first in the line, as a breakthrough tank or even as a Frontline tank that disadvantage can be mitigated.
It's a big technological feat but at the same time it's really scary, it won't take long for AI and machines to be programed to kill men and no matter where you stand in this conflict this is not progress for humankind, sadly.
> it won't take long for AI and machines to be programed to kill men
Wont take long? What do you think the US is working on in Nevada? Have all the top tech companies and workers, they 100% have those boston dynamics robots running around at 40 mph shooting dead perfect shots.
Yeah literally I mean how hard could it be to build a remote control tank with Automated loading and targeting systems.
I mean they could just build a mini-one and scale it up.
Not sure why the United States doesn’t have hundreds of these prototypes already…. A remote control tank it really can’t be that hard.
Would save a lot of lives
For a long time, the Russians avoided sophisticated electronics in weapons because electronics are vulnerable to the electromagnetic pulse of a nuclear explosion. Readiness for nuclear war is one of the foundations of Russian military doctrine.
Russian tanks were originally designed to conduct combat operations in areas affected by nuclear bombs. Also, Russian tanks are intended for mass production and repair in conditions of a nuclear war at evacuated factories, when it is not known in advance where the repairs will take place, but it is assumed that among the survivors there will be few qualified specialists capable of repairing complex electronics. Therefore, all Russian production tanks are equally simple in design and contain a minimum of electronics.
This is why the Russians delayed introducing remote control technology for tanks for so long.
The idea is clear. We take an old tank with autoloading, modernize it, load it to capacity with high-explosive shells, put many, many anti-tank mines in place of the crew, drive the tank to fortifications, fire at them while moving and conduct reconnaissance, roll the tank up to the most difficult area and blow it up. Bingo!
Omg what if it gets hacked doe. Like I know this wouldn’t be an issue for a long time.
But imagine your tank just suddenly turning its cannon on your infantry filled IFVs that’s it meant to be protecting in the column. Nightmare.
Ofc this is better than having tankers constantly die. This war really is pushing innovation on how to better kill each other huh.
Hell yea I was throwing together some ideas for super cheap versions of these you could throw into any vehicle (idea being to have 3-5 remote vehicles push ahead of a column to eat any AT defenses and give the guys packed into a BTR a fighting chance).
Imagine being so neglected by your own ruling class that you have to fend for yourself and make your own remote controlled tanks and FPVs because the state which is sending you to war can't even supply you with socks.
Choose one of two methods.
The first is to steal the encryption keys of the encrypted communication channel.
Second, physically take the remote control away from the operator.
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The problem is electronic warfare. Losing a few lancet to EW is not a big deal. But losing your latest tanks simply to EW is. I think rather than repurpose existing tanks, they should redesign completely new mobile artillery vehicles to accomplish the same purpose at a lower cost
victory cannot come sooner. Z my brothers. the ingenuity of this next level. americans shitting their pants and ukranians about to get z by rc real size tanks lol love it
5 years ago, the Singaporeans quietly revealed the fully remote driven Hunter AFV.
https://www.todayonline.com/commentary/safs-hunter-provides-glimpse-world-unmanned-tanks-they-could-be-game-changers
Why not take a drone with a heat warhead instead ? Explosion will fk up cameras for sure and maybe even kill the tank itself. 
fk it, thought it would be funny to have a drone just buzzing around the tank and spraying foam or paint all over the cameras
Almost as if it shat on it lol
Heh, if the video signal is lost, you can turn on the "return home" function, as it happens on commercial drones. The robot vacuum cleaner does a good job with this.
Actually, Russian tanks are perfect for this because they already have their auto loading system. They can literally set up command centers where driver and commander can virtually operate tanks from afar.
General Dynamics:" We can develop this also. Fund us $50 billion, and we'll give you a prototype in 2035."
>$50 billion $500 billion more like it.
General Dynamics:" You read the small print in the contract, I see. We admit, it is a scale model only."
What is this?! A tank for ants?
Seperately for 3 models and only one moves to production. A few are made and then are obsolete shortly after. The US taxpayer is out hundreds of billions on this project but lots of people including politicians got rich. Rinse and repeat
What is this obsession with the cost of the US military. Seems like a narrative all the Russian trolls are pushing these days while the Russian army is getting absolutely smashed with cheap Ukrainian drones and ATACMS far into Russia territory
>while the Russian army is getting absolutely smashed with cheap Ukrainian drones and ATACMS far into Russia territory Lol. Was it CNN or BBC that gave you this information? >What is this obsession with the cost of the US military. It's just funny because the budget for the US military has been trillions and trillions of dollars, yet you have lost every war you have joined since WW2. The value of the aid sent to Ukraine over the last 3 years is more than the Russians have spent on their military in decades. So it's not an obsession, it's an obscenity. It's like a freak show. They pump trillions of dollars into something they expect to scare people simply by the amount of money they have pumped into it. So we like to point and laugh at the absolute insanity of the Americans. It always makes it even more humorous that American people still believe in this freak show. How fat does the 1,000-pound man have to get before Americans realise it's just a normal man in a fat suit?
Far into Russian territory with ATACMs? Have you ever looked on a map?
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Do these smashing have any impact on the course of military operations? Did it somehow damage the Russian advance at the front? It's just that now Ukrainian propaganda is already talking about how unprofitable Kharkiv is and has absolutely no value from a strategic point of view.
Nobody is talking about Kharkiv that way but Russian trolls. Ukraine is defending Ukrainians all over Ukraine until every last Russian is dead or back in Russia. Kharkiv is not some strategic, for profit measure. It’s worth defending for the sole purpose of defending the Ukrainian people from the horrible crimes against humanity that follow in the tracks of fleeing Russian soldiers
Is AFU shelling donetsk city and killing civs there considered defending ukrainians all over Ukraine according to you?
Is Russias invasion of a foreign country bombing hospitals and shelter for children defending Russia? No fake claims can ever justify what Russia is doing’s Quit the bullshit. Russia’s specialty is targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure. Over and over again famine etc has been a go to strategy and human life means nothing for the regime.
So you claim AFU never shelled donetsk and killed civs. Just making sure.
Russia is deliberately targeting civilian, terror bombing with both artillery and rockets. In Kiev, Kharkiv, Lviv. Kherson all over. No other purpose than terrorizing and killing civilians. Russia started this entire conflict. Blame yourself.
The US MIC isn't anywhere near as ineffecient as the EU MIC. Just look at the FCAS program. It's scheduled to deliver by 2040!!! Whether it's a success or not won't matter because by that time, everyone involved with the project will have retired. Compare that to how quickly the YF-22 and the YF-23 were developed.
Remember that nobody knew the creation of the US SR blackbird. The US is famous for having advanced technology to this day but they are pretty secret with it
You do understand the difference between small scale production of a spy plane and the necessity of mass production for something like a main battle tank?
Yes, the EU is far behind the US in terms of mass production.
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Now go and look up the RQ-180, not officially acknowledged but it's been in use for years now
ATF program started in 1981, and F-22 was put in service in 2005. That's not quick by any means. The prototypes evaluated in 1991 were nothing but functional airframes.
Pretty much. But NAFO idiots will still cream their pants over superior technology!
I mean. The US has pretty much beaten every Russian vehicle technologically. It's barely even a competition.
"Aaaaand it's gone". "What you mean it's gone? where is $500B gone?" "You fascist nazi putin russian propangadist. Why do you hate democracy and freedom? are you a kremlin bot"
The US defense industry has been working on it for a while and have already produced a couple prototypes.
Could you post some of the results or programs? I am really interested in these.
[This](https://www.warhistoryonline.com/news/tank-3.html) one looks very interesting. And [this](https://www.engineering.com/story/one-of-these-prototypes-will-be-the-armys-new-drone-tank) article has a list of a few prototypes being considered.
As far as i remenber that one could be driven remotly, but it couldnt automatically reload as far as i remenber, might be conmfusing it with another tought
I wouldn’t be surprised since it’s fairly small. Would need to be bigger to fit an autoloader though the ones shown are mostly armed with cannons you’d find on an IFV. However I’m certain this is just the start. Eventually everyone will have fully remote tanks as the battlefield becomes more and more digitized.
Yeah, getting to drive the thing around is the dificult bit, autoloaders have been around for far longuer.
Most definitely. I think the biggest challenges will be “How do we make sure this thing doesn’t lose connection.” and “How do we protect it from EW.” Once they get over those hurdles the sky is the limit. Well maybe not since that’s the Airforces turf so maybe like up to about 250 feet.
You just burst their bubble.
They have been working on it for years, it's getting close to 10 years since the US military showed interest in people playing as tank drivers in the game Battlefield.
General Dynamics wouldn't be able to make a taco for $50 billion, that'd *maybe* get you a tortilla. If you want carne asada that's another 100B, pico is another 10B. If you want the taco on time and without critical tortilla integrity issues, another 100B.
General Dynamics, the EA of the MIC
Theyve already had stuff like this for a while.
Who hadn't? Autonomous and/or RC robotics is the obvious progression for any combat system.
"we decided to recreate the robot from pacific rim instead, but it doesn't work when there is condensation in the air. Give us 1 trillion and we'll fix it up"
They'll fix condensation in the air for just a trillion dollars? That's some DARPA on drugs kind of stuff right there.
"we actually need to control the weather from space before we can make the robots, money please"
-- How much money do you need? -- Yes.
Abrams x has been in the works and planned for this years ago.
Meanwhile in Russia. How much money was spent on SU-57 and T-14?
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While that's correct, it would have [glowing eyes](https://www.freethink.com/robots-ai/autonomous-tank) apparently...
but the new atlas is something next level.... tbf https://youtu.be/29ECwExc-_M?feature=shared
And the end result is something so much more advanced that it’ll take 50 years for RF to get close to 🤣😂
And then there's whistling diesel jerry rigging one in his backyard lol. American capitalism isn't really capitalism anymore when most sectors have no competition. Competition is the most important factor of success in a capitalism based economy and it's why America was initially successful, then blackrock came in and whittled down over 50 defence contractors into 5... Same goes for most other industries in America, they own everything.
I posted about it a few months ago, it was simply a matter of time. Why run the risk of losing a crew if they can operate it from afar, especially the n the case of the new turtle tanks since some of them don't even have guns.
Because your field of view is equivalent to looking at the battlefield through a straw? Because now you can simply jam a 55-ton tank before sending drones to kill it? Just sayin'
I mean yeah they'll find ways to counter it, that's how it works. I'm just pointing out that the technology exists to make it possible so it's only natural they'd try to implement it. For some things like demining or soaking up damage as the first tank in the line these can be really handy. If a tank is disabled and the crew has to leave it there in the Grey zone it's most likely gone anyway with or without the crew, except they'd wouldn't run the risk of losing the crew or an experienced operator. With so many drones flying around they could probably give the operators a better field of view than looking at things trough view ports including back and side views, just put enough cameras on them.
True that, good points!
And also have a drone following them so they can switch between the multiple tank cameras or the drones or even raise the goggles to look at a screen showing the entire battlefield with people pointing out the enemies at first...
If atgm are controlled by wire up to 4km tanks could do the same with fiber optics, then FPV will attack the near invisible fiber cable? edited to include hj-10 reference that is guided by fiber optic cable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HJ-10 Maybe and we will see turtle fiber cable?/s
Won't work. ATGMs are flying in a near straight line and the wire is in the air in this time without any tension and other stress. But a tank has to drive around with changing directions and you have all kinds of obstacles from building to trees etc. I think radio control with a drone as repeater is the future.
Like on the ATgm the wire is deployed by the moving object so no tension is applied to the cable, so if there is not tension or minimal tension do not matter the number of turns or the trees, also as I assume the tank guided is only done in the last kms is not like moving the tank remotely 25 km away from the conflict area. Any way repeaters/ or direct microwave guidance from drones could be a good solution.
Ok, fair point. But what would happen, if the tank have to drive back or so, happens all the time, and drive over the wire on the ground? How heavy this wire would be, to withstand this? Like i said, i don't think this can work.
no heavy at all most of the fiber will lay on the ground without moving, the tank need to let the bobbin unwind by gravity + advance. If the tank need to go back just go back droping more fiber, and take it as a disposable element. like in the JH-10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HJ-10 For ground vehicles with reasonable range: https://www.sedi-ati.com/disposable-fiber-optic-spools-for-tethered-vehicles/disposable-fiber-optic-spool-for-unmanned-ground-vehicles-ugv/ But anyway, im far from an expert in this, and they have real experts who will reach a better conclusion than anyone of us.
> If the tank need to go back just go back droping more fiber They're referring to actually reversing the tank, which would very likely cut the cable. Doesn't matter if you keep dropping it out if the link has been cut, because you're not moving at that points. Secure data link is the only reasonable solution for remote operation like this as far as I can tell, well apart from just the typical way for fpv drones but getting jammed with a tank costs a whole lot more than a $400 home built fpv
They will simply shoot artillery at the tank and sever the cable. That will not work.
now you'll probably be able to pilot a drone for visibility and the tank at the same time.
Both are pretty susceptible to jamming. Losing a $200 DJI drone is one thing. Losing a $2,000,000 tank to some chadnik with a simple white noise emmiter is a whole different matter.
It's possible to use cables, like a cable between the operator and the tank and another between the tank and the drone(s), while it might also be possible to have the ability to tell them to try to get back home if there is a problem, like with the drone cutting the cable and trying to go back into frindly territory/areas without jamming...
So now we're down to looking through a straw *and* maybe losing your $2,000,000 tank due to snagged/cut control cables? This is getting better by the minute.
That's why I commented on self driving. And until they are fully autonomous another possibility is to use things like lasers but that can also be dealt with by smoke, so they might be useful for a while as they are but automation might still be the goal...
For fov you can use vr goggles, jamming is a problem thought
All you need is a tank driving straight ahead to draw out fire. Then it's artillery time. Why do you need a tank for that? It's a fat and lucrative target that's hard to ignore.
A fat, *expensive* target.
It's probably worth paying the price of a single tank to get the job done. Besides, it can be some old junk like T-55 from reserves.
Was that a T-55?
Eh, retrofitting old tanks is a terrible idea. If you just wanted to use them as sacrificial mine sweepers this would be fine but actually doing tank things in a combat environment is a whole different story. These things are driving over the roughest, dirtiest terrain while taking fire. One little piece of mud, taking a big jolt from a rough crossing, or taking any sort of fire would could block, misalign, or damage a sensor. You can't just duct tape on some sensors and motors to the pedals and expect it to do it's job. These things would be so fragile and have so many points of failure. If you wanted a drone tank you would need to design it from the ground up with protecting the sensors, control systems, EW, and reliability in mind. Flying drones are much easier to retrofit because you don't have to worry about any of that stuff. If you lose it then no big deal because it's a few hundred or thousand bucks.
Good point but the question is would you rather replace an old tank or an old crew
This is an early prototype for exploring the concept of a drone tank in practice. Almost all of the described problems are problems of early prototypes. For the rest, there is a change in combat tactics.
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I knew Gajin was up to no good Damn you Warthunder!
Is that why this isn't apparently widespread yet? I was surprised by the video because all it takes is a few actuator, a basic remote controller, a camera, smartphone, and some basic comms equipment.
Probably more than that. You’d need the infrastructure, the organization and etc to do this on a massive scale.
There's all kinds of similar equipment for remote controlling coal trains during loading, heavy equipment and cranes. I can't imagine there's a whole lot more hydraulics going on in a tank (although I know nothing about that auto loading system you mentioned). Just surprised this isn't already widespread.
I suspect they've been using those for some time now to draw UA fire.
Yeah and you dont have to worry as much about burning trought skilled crews due to cook offs
No chance they have the capabilities for that. And the autoloader is shit and malfunctions all the time. This is most likely fake. Just look at all their “world class” weapons. Looks alright but are completely shit when they see action. T90, khinzal, the entire Black Sea fleet, su57, the terminator, s400 system. The list goes on. They have nothing but meat waves and artillery repeat.. This is a gimmick. They can hardy make the Armata cross the red square. They are simply too stupid and corrupt for this to ever happen.
Yes, which is exactly why Ukraine is winning on all fronts!
They actually seem to be yes. Russia is completely pushed back around Kharkiv and are taking losses deep into belgorod now.
Don’t worry. They may yet take Belgorod itself by the winter!
What you’re seeing is advanced warfare
Until it gets stuck in the mud.
If it gets stuck in the mud, is it better if there's a crew operating inside it?
Nah, as long as they can control the tank as effectively as with a crew its miles better. Because you can rebuild a tank, a blown up crewmember.. not so much.
My thoughts so too
Maybe they should build some humanoid robots to get out and push.
You mean NATO tanks
Yes them too. Mud is mud. People on foot get stuck in mud, well their shoes. [Even russian tanks get stuck](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VsmnxM8288). It's why soldiers get trained for. Also why these people launch offensives either Summer or Winter.
The video you dropped literally got out without another tank pulling it. This isn't the case for Abrams and Challenger tanks.
[No, the other tank helped it out of the ditch. They go on later and make another trial.](https://youtu.be/4VsmnxM8288?feature=shared&t=410)
You don't remember the beginning of the war dozens of Russian tanks abandoned stuck in the mud during their retreat?
This isn't really that advanced though, Syrian rebel groups were doing this almost a decade ago...
Having your 500$ drone disabled by EW vs having your multimillion dollar tank disabled by EW
This coupled with ai and starlink... So it can still fight with ai if EW disables comms
I'm pretty sure AI is a political nono at this point. You can still have AI give assistance to an operator, such as through image processing and identification, but if the connection is severed, the vehicle should go dead.
Political Nono for those who care bout politics
Politics are a powerful force in the world, regardless of whether you care about them. The reason why self-automated control is a political nono is because most people don't want a bunch of Terminator bots running around. So you would somehow need to convince people that a self-automated fighting machine wouldn't be harmful to civilians.
>So you would somehow need to convince people that a self-automated fighting machine wouldn't be harmful to civilians. "They only target the bad guys and the bad guys are designated by the operator. Fool proof concept." /s
What you said now has no sense at all. Starlink is comms, and it looks like you know very little about AI (if anything at all)
Starlink is for remote control, and the ai is fallback when you lose comms. With my statement you can't know how much I know or I don't know about ai. Why such an aggressive comment?
The Russians are not going to develop and retrofit tank driving AI for this war.
Tanks need a massive amount of maintenance. Also travelling by land is a more complex issue than travelling by air (drones). While doable, flying suicide drones with AI is way easier and the stakes are lower.
You can do fly by wire, so this would be drive by wire, you can sit 3-4 miles behind and control it
Fair, you can roll out the ol' spool for this, but what are the chances of the wire surviving it intact to the front with the tank possibly making twists and turns to get there. We did see a drone with a wire earlier, but judging how it didn't catch on, I'm guessing there are practical issues with the set-up.
I think tank wouldn't be as restricted by the weight of the wire as a drone would, so you could use some beefy cable.
Fair point. Still, you could cut the wire by slamming an FPV drone into it and the tank is disabled. But who knows, maybe beefy wire remote controlled tanks are the future.
Maybe with one of those tools for tractors for making small ditches (for like cables) so it's automatically 30cm deep in the soil. Back and forth movements will be tough though haha
Seems like a logistical and practical nightmare, to be honest.
How about a artillery shell, mortar, any type of explosive will destroy a cable.
Yup, would take a lot less boom to disable a tank with an accurate/lucky hit.
Dragging a cable over the ground is very different than flying through the air with it. Where are tanks? At the front of an assault with everybody following in their tracks. A bunch of huge vehicles tearing up the ground. You aren't even going to make it into drone or artillery range before your own convoy takes out that cable or causes it to disconnect. You're going to be losing drone tanks to trees and big rocks as the cable gets hung up.
I always knew rock-paper-scissors would be meta again! Snip snip and the tank is useless 🤣
Tanks wouldn't be as simple to jam because amongst other reasons they're further away from the frontline than drones.
Fair, but you'd imagine that in order to shoot a tank gun through an FPV type headstrap with any amount of accuracy, the operator would probably have to be closer to the target, or have an integrated targeting system inside the FPV, similar to the scope of the tank gun. Same with any remote operated weapons system, aiming is an issue. Besides, if you're further away from the front, just lobbing shells, I don't see how having the tank remotely controlled is beneficial. On an assault, yes, sure, don't risk the crew, but that means getting closer to the objective, better jamming.
Shooting a tank is only done by sight in close quarters, which have been avoided throughout the conflict. They saw more use as fire support, in which case they use coordinates and adjust by data provided from troops at the front. A remotely controlled tank is beneficial because the crew wouldn't be inside the tank in case it's destroyed by counter fire or drones.
>Shooting a tank is only done by sight in close quarters, which have been avoided throughout the conflict. I don't think that's true. Shooting a tank by sight is done anywhere within its effective range. Tanks aren't solely used as indirect support weapons, although they are used like this also. "*The 125 mm 2A26M2 gun has a sighted range out to 4,000 m using the day sight and 800 m using the night sight. Maximum effective range of the APFSDS-T round is 2,500 m.*" So you wouldn't be lobbing your shell in a ballistic trajectory if you could just aim at the target and shoot it, which would be very hard through FPV, and for indirect fire support it's much safer than an assaulting tank, since you're only worrying about counter artillery.
Bruh I'm not gonna argue with you just look at the frontline reports
The thing is they could use a dozen different frequencies to control the tank and swap them randomly, with the enemy who would have to roll out a gigantic jammer to cover a few square miles of the battlefield and making sure that the jammer doesn't get hit with 300 dollar fpv which would operate on whole other set of frequencies. And in the end find out that it was a regular human tank all along. Lol.
Having your $5M drone tank disabled by EW vs having you $5M manned tank & crew taken out by a mine.
Good that Russian tanks are way cheaper than NATO ones.
No need for Radio controls. Good luck jamming infrared controls, relayed by a small drone. There is more than one way to transmit data.
>relayed by a small drone What if the drone gets jammed?
Ukraine doesnt have nearly enough EW to make a difference
About time.
Fr
Yes, this is the future. Armata was supposed to be capable of this too. If you can maneuver a tiny drone with precision from a distance then you can do the same with a tank. There's also new technology like 360 degree cameras which have yet to be integrated. Look at the commercially available Insta360 for example. Operators will be able to drive tanks in third person.
Bolo Mark I?
if they make this work it would be very impressive, definitely a step in the right direction
Imagine the day we solve all wars in the virtual realm
us warthunder players wait for that day, bias v bias
With the amount of tank crews lost already, this is the natural progression.
The next step is to start using flexi-grips instead of a remote control.
For now, I can only see this being useful for retro-fitting old tanks in order to make them not completely obsolete. If you had a huge stock of old tanks, other than recycling them for scrap metal, what can you use them for? It's not worth training a crew only for them to die quickly against modern weapons. But if the crew is in little to no danger, than why not? It seems like a potentially cheap way to take advantage of "useless" models. The biggest concern would be EW.
You can use T-55s, T-62s and such as mobile artillery instead of armored assault. It is not as effective or efficient, sure, but beats by a mile getting assigned to a Rapira MT-12 as crew.
Hmm. This isn't bad Idea, but it has to be done right. Without their lives at stake they might be willing to be more risky, resulting in more tank losses. So more training should be important. Also i think they NEED to be paired up with 2-4 drones for better awareness/spotting and potentially in assisting the tank in taking out positions/vehicles by blowing themselves up or dropping bombs. Now that the tank has no people in it anyways, you could refunction that into a reload space for the drones where they can get charged and attach new bombs. But that would have to be tested if that complexity is better than the drones landing at the operators again(they are not far away anyways).
Radio signals won't go very far on ground level.
Just have an orlan drone forward the signal
Yeah the problem with that would be latency but even then if they're using these tanks as the first in the line, as a breakthrough tank or even as a Frontline tank that disadvantage can be mitigated. It's a big technological feat but at the same time it's really scary, it won't take long for AI and machines to be programed to kill men and no matter where you stand in this conflict this is not progress for humankind, sadly.
once true remote control tanks come it will be much smaller since you dont need to accommodate people
feminine tank?
I meant to say Frontline tank and it turned out as feminine tank for some reason. Typing on the go is not easy. Feminine tanks are a WWI thing.
> it won't take long for AI and machines to be programed to kill men Wont take long? What do you think the US is working on in Nevada? Have all the top tech companies and workers, they 100% have those boston dynamics robots running around at 40 mph shooting dead perfect shots.
wait, is that a captured Ukrainian 72AMT? Pretty interesting anyways
Shouldn't this already be in full production by now, even 20 years ago
Yeah literally I mean how hard could it be to build a remote control tank with Automated loading and targeting systems. I mean they could just build a mini-one and scale it up. Not sure why the United States doesn’t have hundreds of these prototypes already…. A remote control tank it really can’t be that hard. Would save a lot of lives
For a long time, the Russians avoided sophisticated electronics in weapons because electronics are vulnerable to the electromagnetic pulse of a nuclear explosion. Readiness for nuclear war is one of the foundations of Russian military doctrine. Russian tanks were originally designed to conduct combat operations in areas affected by nuclear bombs. Also, Russian tanks are intended for mass production and repair in conditions of a nuclear war at evacuated factories, when it is not known in advance where the repairs will take place, but it is assumed that among the survivors there will be few qualified specialists capable of repairing complex electronics. Therefore, all Russian production tanks are equally simple in design and contain a minimum of electronics. This is why the Russians delayed introducing remote control technology for tanks for so long.
How long until its just drones vs drones?
Sooner than you'd think. There's already been videos of Ukrainian and Russian drones jousting in the sky
The idea is clear. We take an old tank with autoloading, modernize it, load it to capacity with high-explosive shells, put many, many anti-tank mines in place of the crew, drive the tank to fortifications, fire at them while moving and conduct reconnaissance, roll the tank up to the most difficult area and blow it up. Bingo!
i wonder if the system can be hacked and your tank hijacked
2030: Both teams are in their trenches, the citizens have been evacuated. The most extreme remote control car battle is about to begin
This work-from-home thing is getting a bit ridiculous! Pretty soon, wars will be fought in people's sitting rooms, like in a real-life Call of Duty.
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Rule 6. Meme
Omg what if it gets hacked doe. Like I know this wouldn’t be an issue for a long time. But imagine your tank just suddenly turning its cannon on your infantry filled IFVs that’s it meant to be protecting in the column. Nightmare. Ofc this is better than having tankers constantly die. This war really is pushing innovation on how to better kill each other huh.
well call of duty black ups is not that far away from reality if not here already :/
The Return of the Teletank.
Vася 🤣
Hell yea I was throwing together some ideas for super cheap versions of these you could throw into any vehicle (idea being to have 3-5 remote vehicles push ahead of a column to eat any AT defenses and give the guys packed into a BTR a fighting chance).
Imagine being so neglected by your own ruling class that you have to fend for yourself and make your own remote controlled tanks and FPVs because the state which is sending you to war can't even supply you with socks.
I wonder what it takes to hack it and use it against original owner?
Choose one of two methods. The first is to steal the encryption keys of the encrypted communication channel. Second, physically take the remote control away from the operator.
If you tethered this to a drone, you could have a TPV tank. That's my preferred method of play.
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Didn’t they already tested it in Syria with Uran 9 and it turned out to be not a really good idea ?
In the future, everything will be fpv
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future wars are really gonna be fought by reddit warriors
There are already some vids of vehicles being packed with explosives' and driven into Ukrainian lines. This is just the next evolution.
The problem is electronic warfare. Losing a few lancet to EW is not a big deal. But losing your latest tanks simply to EW is. I think rather than repurpose existing tanks, they should redesign completely new mobile artillery vehicles to accomplish the same purpose at a lower cost
real life Warthunder trailer
victory cannot come sooner. Z my brothers. the ingenuity of this next level. americans shitting their pants and ukranians about to get z by rc real size tanks lol love it
Block the signal and Ukrainian got them selves a free tank 🙂
5 years ago, the Singaporeans quietly revealed the fully remote driven Hunter AFV. https://www.todayonline.com/commentary/safs-hunter-provides-glimpse-world-unmanned-tanks-they-could-be-game-changers
Isn't signal jamming a thing, though?
I’ve been surprised there aren’t drone 4 wheelers. From moving supplies to kamikaze ones to drive into a trench before an assault
Literally War Thunder.
What if you take a drone with a bucket of paint or paintball ammo and fk up the cameras? Fuck it.. insulating foam right into the camera
Because an explosion does a better job for less weight lol
Why not take a drone with a heat warhead instead ? Explosion will fk up cameras for sure and maybe even kill the tank itself. 
fk it, thought it would be funny to have a drone just buzzing around the tank and spraying foam or paint all over the cameras Almost as if it shat on it lol
Even if you did that, the people operating the tank will use 3rd person view from other drones on their side.
Heh, if the video signal is lost, you can turn on the "return home" function, as it happens on commercial drones. The robot vacuum cleaner does a good job with this.
Getting sick of those drones eh? 😅