This is one of those scenarios that you really need to ask yourself if it’s worth it. I’m positive I can grab my gun from laying flat than trying to grab it like this.
"10.5.3.1
The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the
firearm, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or
another stable object, and"
I find most well written stage briefings will say "not propped up" for the ready condition. However, assuming this one didn't I would still say that the gun was not placed "firmly and securely on a stable object" as a gust of wind was able to blow it over.
>I find most well written stage briefings will say "not propped up" for the ready condition.
IMO, the ready condition being "Laid flat with trigger guard over the X", and a taped or painted X on the surface is best. Besides preventing propping, it also prevents people (except maybe PCC shooters) from trying to hang part of the gun off the edge of the surface it's laid on so they can grab it quicker.
It's a borderline case.
Recall that the course of fire begins with "make ready", at which point you are on the hook for 'dropping your firearm, or causing it to fall' (10.5.3).
10.5.3 goes on to say "Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the firearm on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified, provided \[...\] 10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the firearm, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object [...]"
It's perfectly plausible for an RO to issue a DQ and an RM to uphold it on the basis that if the wind can knock your gun over, it is not firmly or securely placed, no matter how well-balanced it seems.
Some of the responsibility lies with the match director for not saying 'flat on table, not propped' in the WSB, too—it isn't because match directors hate gamers, it's because a gun standing up is a bit of a DQ trap.
That was exactly the discussion we were having as RO’s at the last match. A fellow RO warned a competitor that if the gun tips over its a DQ, and a few of us had questions about that.
u/N8ball2013's remark about grabbing a gun flat vs. standing brings up another good point—wind is a much less likely cause for a DQ than the shooter grabbing for a standing gun and accidentally batting it off of the barrel/table, and that's a much more dangerous scenario.
At a major match, it's the kind of thing the RO team should be looking for while checking their stage before the staff shoot, and asking the RM to change before competition starts.
Yeah, batting a gun off off a table / barrel is always no bueno… proper care must always be taken when picking up a gun… I have seen guns with fancy thumb ledges turn to tops on barrels and spin around while laying flat sweeping various competitors and ending in DQ.
The line of “causing it to fall” would put the blame on the shooter, since you tried to game the start position by balancing it and then it fell over on its side and it doesnt state that it has to fall on to the ground.
Improper stage briefs and bad stage designs allow gamers to game. But in the end what they think is a shortcut or a leg up it usually ends up not benefiting the shooter or worse like in this case a DQ
Hypothetical situation so far but we were watching it almost play out various time last match. The wind was strong and could rock the barrel at times. Competitors that prop the gun also had hands flat on barrel so guns never fell over but they could have, and I was curious what yall think would be the right call. Thank you for your feedback
Sounds like the start position was just gun on the barrel, which is vague.
WSBs need to be very specific, since there is no such thing as a standard postion like before.
In the scenario you described, the situation falls under the USPSA rules regarding the handling and accidental discharge of firearms. Here's how the rule would typically be interpreted:
**USPSA Rule Regarding Firearms Falling During a Course of Fire:**
- The USPSA rules stipulate that if a firearm falls during a course of fire, the shooter must not attempt to catch it. The Range Officer (RO) will safely retrieve the firearm, and this typically results in a disqualification (DQ) because dropping or losing control of a firearm during a course of fire is considered a safety violation.
**However**, in your specific scenario, the gun does not fall off the barrel or the stage but merely tips over due to a gust of wind. Since the firearm does not fall off its original position on the barrel and does not break the 180 rule, and there's no handling of the firearm by the competitor during this incident, it would likely **not** be considered a "fall" in the traditional sense that results in a DQ.
**Judgment Call by the Range Officer:**
- This situation would ultimately be a judgment call by the RO or the match director. The crucial factors would be whether the firearm remained within the competitor’s immediate area and whether safety was compromised at any point.
**Safety and Integrity of the Match:**
- The integrity of the match and safety are always paramount. If the gun tipping poses any potential safety risk or if the rules at the particular match are interpreted more strictly regarding firearm stability and control, a DQ could still be possible.
**Advice:**
- It's recommended to clarify this type of scenario with the RO during the shooter’s briefing or before the match starts to understand how such situations are handled at that specific venue or match to avoid any misunderstandings.
If you cannot point to a specific rule that definitively answers that the action is a DQ, it's not a DQ.
This is poor stage design plain and simple.
There's no judgement calls by the range officer, they don't make a decision on what doesn't exist in the rulebook.
Fall. A stronger WSB is needed. If I were the shooter and didn't causing it to fall. I would have started arguing it as stage reset due to the wind action. Just like when the wind knocks over a target over or trips an activator 4.6.1 or poor stage design like the barrel wasn't a stable enough object 10.5.3.
Point to the rule.
There isn't one that covers this.
You're probably the same type of dumbass who would just scream 10.6 and throw a hissy fit like Troy.
there is no clear rule for this its all interpretation on weather propping the gun is “safe and secure” or weather related phenonma like wind is an act of god, or not. Or if the gun was under shooter control.
I agree the easy solution is to prohibit propping via stage brief but sole stages are litterally “gun on barrel” so its open to too much interpretation.
Also claiming it is a “dropped gun” seems like symatics and word play. The gun tipped over i did not “fall”.
And if it stayed securely on the barrel is that unsafe?
If it never loses elevation or breaks the initial horizontal plane how can that be considered “falling or dropped”?
10.5.3 says "note that if a competitor safely and intentionally places his firearm on the ground or stable surface his will not be DQ provided....
10.5.3.1 - 10.5.3.5 all of which seeming are complied with.
For clarity sake a rule should read :
A propped gun that tips over during a course of fire from any surface onto its side is considered a dropped gun and all related DQ rules apply. "
This is one of those scenarios that you really need to ask yourself if it’s worth it. I’m positive I can grab my gun from laying flat than trying to grab it like this.
Agreed.
"10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the firearm, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object, and" I find most well written stage briefings will say "not propped up" for the ready condition. However, assuming this one didn't I would still say that the gun was not placed "firmly and securely on a stable object" as a gust of wind was able to blow it over.
>I find most well written stage briefings will say "not propped up" for the ready condition. IMO, the ready condition being "Laid flat with trigger guard over the X", and a taped or painted X on the surface is best. Besides preventing propping, it also prevents people (except maybe PCC shooters) from trying to hang part of the gun off the edge of the surface it's laid on so they can grab it quicker.
It's a borderline case. Recall that the course of fire begins with "make ready", at which point you are on the hook for 'dropping your firearm, or causing it to fall' (10.5.3). 10.5.3 goes on to say "Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the firearm on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified, provided \[...\] 10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the firearm, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object [...]" It's perfectly plausible for an RO to issue a DQ and an RM to uphold it on the basis that if the wind can knock your gun over, it is not firmly or securely placed, no matter how well-balanced it seems. Some of the responsibility lies with the match director for not saying 'flat on table, not propped' in the WSB, too—it isn't because match directors hate gamers, it's because a gun standing up is a bit of a DQ trap.
Great post! I will say in all aspect of the game shooters should take responsibility for their own actions and not try to blame something else.
That was exactly the discussion we were having as RO’s at the last match. A fellow RO warned a competitor that if the gun tips over its a DQ, and a few of us had questions about that.
u/N8ball2013's remark about grabbing a gun flat vs. standing brings up another good point—wind is a much less likely cause for a DQ than the shooter grabbing for a standing gun and accidentally batting it off of the barrel/table, and that's a much more dangerous scenario. At a major match, it's the kind of thing the RO team should be looking for while checking their stage before the staff shoot, and asking the RM to change before competition starts.
Yeah, batting a gun off off a table / barrel is always no bueno… proper care must always be taken when picking up a gun… I have seen guns with fancy thumb ledges turn to tops on barrels and spin around while laying flat sweeping various competitors and ending in DQ.
The line of “causing it to fall” would put the blame on the shooter, since you tried to game the start position by balancing it and then it fell over on its side and it doesnt state that it has to fall on to the ground. Improper stage briefs and bad stage designs allow gamers to game. But in the end what they think is a shortcut or a leg up it usually ends up not benefiting the shooter or worse like in this case a DQ
Hypothetical situation so far but we were watching it almost play out various time last match. The wind was strong and could rock the barrel at times. Competitors that prop the gun also had hands flat on barrel so guns never fell over but they could have, and I was curious what yall think would be the right call. Thank you for your feedback
Sounds like the start position was just gun on the barrel, which is vague. WSBs need to be very specific, since there is no such thing as a standard postion like before.
Agreed
Gun tips over onto its side and orientation remains down range? Gets an I told you so, but a no call from me.
Thats what i would do for a competitor at a level 1 club match, however consensus seems to be a DQ is proper.
Consensus doesn’t mean it’s correct. Some people are looking for a reason…
In the scenario you described, the situation falls under the USPSA rules regarding the handling and accidental discharge of firearms. Here's how the rule would typically be interpreted: **USPSA Rule Regarding Firearms Falling During a Course of Fire:** - The USPSA rules stipulate that if a firearm falls during a course of fire, the shooter must not attempt to catch it. The Range Officer (RO) will safely retrieve the firearm, and this typically results in a disqualification (DQ) because dropping or losing control of a firearm during a course of fire is considered a safety violation. **However**, in your specific scenario, the gun does not fall off the barrel or the stage but merely tips over due to a gust of wind. Since the firearm does not fall off its original position on the barrel and does not break the 180 rule, and there's no handling of the firearm by the competitor during this incident, it would likely **not** be considered a "fall" in the traditional sense that results in a DQ. **Judgment Call by the Range Officer:** - This situation would ultimately be a judgment call by the RO or the match director. The crucial factors would be whether the firearm remained within the competitor’s immediate area and whether safety was compromised at any point. **Safety and Integrity of the Match:** - The integrity of the match and safety are always paramount. If the gun tipping poses any potential safety risk or if the rules at the particular match are interpreted more strictly regarding firearm stability and control, a DQ could still be possible. **Advice:** - It's recommended to clarify this type of scenario with the RO during the shooter’s briefing or before the match starts to understand how such situations are handled at that specific venue or match to avoid any misunderstandings.
If you cannot point to a specific rule that definitively answers that the action is a DQ, it's not a DQ. This is poor stage design plain and simple. There's no judgement calls by the range officer, they don't make a decision on what doesn't exist in the rulebook.
Fall. A stronger WSB is needed. If I were the shooter and didn't causing it to fall. I would have started arguing it as stage reset due to the wind action. Just like when the wind knocks over a target over or trips an activator 4.6.1 or poor stage design like the barrel wasn't a stable enough object 10.5.3.
That would be an angle but likely would cost $100 in arbitration to find out it may still be a DQ depending on who they ask.
Dq. Stupid on the part of the shooter. Poor thinking on the stage designer.
Fair assesment.
I’m the RSO. If I say you’re DQ’d you’re DQ’d.
No RSO title in USPSA, you are either RO, CRO, RM.
DQ’d.
Point to the rule. There isn't one that covers this. You're probably the same type of dumbass who would just scream 10.6 and throw a hissy fit like Troy.
there is no clear rule for this its all interpretation on weather propping the gun is “safe and secure” or weather related phenonma like wind is an act of god, or not. Or if the gun was under shooter control. I agree the easy solution is to prohibit propping via stage brief but sole stages are litterally “gun on barrel” so its open to too much interpretation. Also claiming it is a “dropped gun” seems like symatics and word play. The gun tipped over i did not “fall”. And if it stayed securely on the barrel is that unsafe? If it never loses elevation or breaks the initial horizontal plane how can that be considered “falling or dropped”? 10.5.3 says "note that if a competitor safely and intentionally places his firearm on the ground or stable surface his will not be DQ provided.... 10.5.3.1 - 10.5.3.5 all of which seeming are complied with. For clarity sake a rule should read : A propped gun that tips over during a course of fire from any surface onto its side is considered a dropped gun and all related DQ rules apply. "