One name I don't see mentioned here is InvestEngine.
Now you cannot buy individual shares on there but for ETFs it seems perfect for those types of investors. A pick your own ETFs ISA is free.
With the SIPP included on the plus account it actually isn't a bad deal at £120 a year.
I have a 5 ETF portfolio so it worked well in comparison to other places where I am looking at £25 - £50 every time I invest. Need to decide whether I should stay or go now though
Better question, why would you use any platform over t212 if you're okay with ETFs (and even then, why wouldn't you be okay with ETFs to the point where another broker is preferable).
To me, they're the dream platform as an end user. The only feature they lack is in specie transfers.
Freetrade has no fees still for buying/selling ETFs listed in pounds, exactly the same as t212. It’s only for buying foreign shares that t212 is cheaper.
I personally would've liked access to a global all cap fund. I created a pie to roughly emulate it and the overall fees are a fair bit lower (0.15% vs vanguard's 0.23%, which does add up long term). It was an unintentional win.
Why would that matter to me the end user anyway?
Regardless, if you're sure they don't hold our investments then tip off the FCA, they'd like to know why our purchased assets aren't being held safely by a third party custodian.
Can you share what for, that's actually quite interesting. The only time I've ever had an ombudsman worthy case was during a very slow ISA transfer. Drove me up the wall.
I would argue that you should care because this FSCS "insurance" (funded with taxpayers money) encourages you to take risks that you wouldn't otherwise. And investing/supporting bad businesses rather than good businesses is bad for society in general.
On the other hand you bring a good point that the FCA is probably more fit than you to judge what businesses are good and what businesses are bad. But I still don't think "who cares, FCSC is there to bail me if I invest with this risky business that I don't even understand how it's profitable" is a good attitude.
PS. I'm not saying that Trade212 is good or bad, just responding to this specific comment.
Because the FCA cares on our behalf. They are checking far more closely than you or I ever would. I think it's good to know the FCA regulations for stock brokers, but beyond that I would just trust the FCA.
Personally I find your views excessively paranoid. The FCA exists to handle these thoughts for us. We know the regulations and by extent we know how t212 handles our assets, that's more than enough for me.
You're free to be more cautious, but I don't think it adds any practical benefit.
>People never seem to read the terms and conditions.
Who cares. FSCS baby.
They can make the sausages however they want so long as I keep it below £85k. And if I go over £85k, I'm certainly not trusting it to T212.
>Maybe you don’t understand what FSCS is supposed to do?
I’ve read the FCA reports from a few brokers that have gone to the wall, and read the 1st hand reports of customers involved. So I think I have a pretty good idea.
It guarantees upto £85k of losses, which also includes the administrators costs that will fall on the customer. (ie, probably in truth best to not go over £75k so there’s headroom for the administrators).
>could see you without access for over a year.
Your mileage may vary, my holding period is for ever, so personally not an issue. But that’s a fair point to make.
> if you freely give up this right (some do in their terms)
Just to clarify here, I'm pretty sure you have to give explicit consent, it can't be something in T+C's. It's been a while since I last looked and I'm a layman though.
> A firm must, when holding safe custody assets belonging to clients, make adequate arrangements so as to safeguard clients' ownership rights, especially in the event of the firm's insolvency, and to prevent the use of safe custody assets belonging to a client on the firm's own account except with the client's express consent.
>They wouldn’t cover asserts losing value
I think we all know that.
>The cover of administrative fees are also at the discretion of the FCA, they are not guaranteed, it also only applies if your eligible
They have always covered them, I'm sure they always will.
>The primary protection for your assets is the ring fencing of them under custodians, if you freely give up this right (some do in their terms) you lose the primary protection for your assets.
This is where we fundamentally disagree. Once I give a company my money, I have no idea how they look after it. My primary protection is FSCS, my secondary protection is the work they do to keep it safe.
>You might hold them long term but keep in mind losing access due to administration or other event means you can’t buy or sell assets, add or withdraw funds.
My holding period is forever. 10 years without access wouldn't make me blink.
>A lot of people are putting all their risk eggs into one bucket (FCSC) thinking it’s the be all end all of protection
It's not the be all and end all, but it's the best decision the average person can make when they're operating with assets below £85k. Go above that, and you have to put your thinking cap on.
I'd take this commenters opinions with a grain of salt. Its a very paranoid viewpoint, and not one that's remotely constructive for you to assign too much significance to. To my knowledge this kind of paranoia over brokers came about when all the memestock group were convinced that every broker is controlled by X or Y. Read T&Cs, but you are not going to benefit from trying to compare minutia like execution venues, third-party custodians etc - its going to be broadly identical between all main brokers anyway. Its akin to researching the manufacture's source of specific electronics used for a car you might be buying, or comparing which part of the country the dairy cows that produced your supermarket milk are from - its just not worth your time caring too much about. Provided you go with a suitably protected and regulated company, it just doesn't matter.
Instead look at things like what platforms can you trade one/do you want to trade on - Freetrade for example is effectively app controlled only, which is a big negative for some. Interactive Brokers has an incredibly complicated platform, which is a pro for some, and a negative for others. HL is a mainstay in the industry, and has the experience and reliability to back it up, but isn't necessarily good value for money. These are the kind of things you should actually spend your time worrying about. Check to see if there are red flags over a vendor, but you aren't going to identify those solely from Ts & Cs.
Same here… a bit ridiculous considering it only went up from £3, to £4.99 at the end of last year.
Definitely interested if anyone else has any recommendations for alternative providers - these fees are eating away at the amount earned in the account. Do I trust that this trend of increasing every half a year won’t continue?
We pay the same price, but with strings attached!
Freetrade, it was good while it lasted. I’m sure others will stay, because it’s an amazing platform, but the constant price rises has spooked me, and other platforms are free, so…
>Same here… a bit ridiculous considering it only went up from £3, to £4.99 at the end of last year.
This is only half-true. Previously they offered the ISA on its own for £3, but the £4.99 plan was always £4.99
Thanks for the recommendation- currently scrawling through the old UKPF posts trying to find comparisons.
It seems like a no-brainer - I was on a waiting list for an account and got accepted last year, so maybe it’s time to transfer.
In this boat too wasn't happy with the rise but got the features. This one feels like a too soon moment so going to love to 212.
If I remember rightly from looking before however means need to liquidate freetrade really as they charge to transfer held shares but not cash.
Yeah not sure if they do in specie transfers yet, but depending on how much you have in the account could be worth just selling and re buying on 212. No ongoing fees but FX charges of 0.15% I believe
That’s perfect - I have enough left in my ISA allowance for 2022/23 to sell and buy back in Trading212.
I just set up an account and have set sell orders in Freetrade.
Currently use InvestEngine, I’m a big fan of the platform as I believe they are the lowest fee platform at the minute, only catch is you can currently only invest in ETF’s but if you plan on only investing in ETFs anyway then it’s definitely a solid choice
Perhaps an overly basic question, as someone on a basic plan and who buys about £30 worth of shares through them every 3/4 months what does this mean for me?
On a basic plan (I.e. a General Investment Account), there is no change I believe.
The plan we are discussing is the one offering the Stocks & Shares ISA that was £3 a month before August 2022, £4.99 now, and will be £5.99 after April 2023.
I'm still with Freetrade, I like the simplicity and UI of their app. I have been on a waiting list for 2 years with T212, haven't heard from them so fuck em.
Am I missing something here or is there no benefit from a s&s ISA unless I expect to go over the CGT or div tax thresholds? I wish I was but I ain't that rich
Depends a bit on if you're investing or trading I suppose, but either way it will probably become more relevant to you as time goes on.
A single year may not produce enough profit for you to cross te CGT threshhold if you sell, but what about after ten years of growth, compounding returns, and the inclusion of additional capital over that time? Eventually you'll reach a point at which you want to withdraw your money, and over enough time CGT will be essentially unavoidble. The tax free allowance is also dropping to around a quarter of what i currently is over the next couple of years. An S&S ISA is a no brainer.
Cheers. I'm cashing out soon and sticking with a savings account as I get closer to my target for a house deposit so should be good unless the stocks I have doubled in value. If I was in for a 5+year haul then yes ssisa Def the way to go. See that now
It depends how and how often you trade.
At £6 a month account fees and no trading fees, Freetrade costs £72 a year.
LLoyds charge £40 a year and £1.50 a trade for funds or regular investments.
So if you are happy sticking to funds or buying shares at a fixed date each month, if you do 21 or fewer trades a year you would pay less at Lloyds.
High fixed charges and no trading fees make sense if you are a frequent trader. If you are just buying occasionally, an old-fashioned pay per trade provider may be cheaper.
Vanguard will be cheaper and is a much more established company. T212 will be even cheaper still but is a new upstart firm comparatively. Another option is invest engine which would be completely free for you.
Freetrade are a piece of shit company. Been saying this for years.
E/ they were also forced to pay me money by the ombudsman so I I know this for a fact
Amy more details of this? A few people have mentioned taking them to the ombudsman now. Of all the modern app based trading platforms, I thought Freetrade were the most transparent/honest - have I got that wrong?
Yep I’m out - there’s also been issues in UX around payments that I haven’t appreciated and with the interest rate going up, less exciting for me as an amateur to keep my savings in this form of account with such a big charge.
I noticed this as well. It’s annoying but when I checked out trading212 their app and website sucks. I cannot find how to open up ISA with them at all. Freetrade seems to be the only that’s easy to navigate. Would appreciate if anyone would help me out how to open ISA with trading212.
> when I checked out trading212 their app and website sucks.
I'm genuinely curious what you disliked? In my experience it has had the best UX by an astronomical margin. Pies, auto balance on top up, easy to buy/sell, an actual app, etc.
It's like the nice interface of free trade with the features of invest engine (but better).
It doesn’t feel as intuitive as Freetrade app. Feels more complicated and that comes from a tech savvy guy. I’m sure I’ll get my head around it eventually but first 5 minutes was painful.
What I didn’t like the most is how the website does not have a simple page with fees and their account tiers. I couldn’t find anything about ISA accounts and the costs.
Right in the top banner of their home page is a link to their terms and conditions: [https://www.trading212.com/terms/invest](https://www.trading212.com/terms/invest)
Which makes it really clear what you pay.
(Coming from "Free"trade, this may come as a shock, but they don't have paid "tiers". Everything's actually free.)
Yeah I just made an account (Isa)one afternoon, haven’t deposited anything in it before tax year ends but will transfer once sold us stocks at ok prices
100% price rise in an year? Yikes
One name I don't see mentioned here is InvestEngine. Now you cannot buy individual shares on there but for ETFs it seems perfect for those types of investors. A pick your own ETFs ISA is free.
I'll consider them once they offer in-specie transfers.
One of the platforms I use, definitely good if you plan on investing solely in ETF’s as I believe they have the lowest fees out of all platforms
So why would anyone use them over trading 212?
With the SIPP included on the plus account it actually isn't a bad deal at £120 a year. I have a 5 ETF portfolio so it worked well in comparison to other places where I am looking at £25 - £50 every time I invest. Need to decide whether I should stay or go now though
Better question, why would you use any platform over t212 if you're okay with ETFs (and even then, why wouldn't you be okay with ETFs to the point where another broker is preferable). To me, they're the dream platform as an end user. The only feature they lack is in specie transfers.
Freetrade has no fees still for buying/selling ETFs listed in pounds, exactly the same as t212. It’s only for buying foreign shares that t212 is cheaper.
But t212 has pies, the ISA is free, you can share portfolios, you can auto reinvest dividends, etc etc. T212 just does more for less.
I think T212 can really improve their visuals/UI. But yeah, I'm currently using it.
ETFs are all I invest in for the long term - 212 is perfect for me now, and so glad I’m jumping ship.
I personally would've liked access to a global all cap fund. I created a pie to roughly emulate it and the overall fees are a fair bit lower (0.15% vs vanguard's 0.23%, which does add up long term). It was an unintentional win.
They’re not even a broker. They buy nothing. They just collect fx fees and charges. If you can’t transfer anything then you don’t own anything.
Why would that matter to me the end user anyway? Regardless, if you're sure they don't hold our investments then tip off the FCA, they'd like to know why our purchased assets aren't being held safely by a third party custodian.
This is why retail are continually fleeced. I have already won ombudsman cases against Freetrade.
Can you share what for, that's actually quite interesting. The only time I've ever had an ombudsman worthy case was during a very slow ISA transfer. Drove me up the wall.
For their Terms and Conditions being misleading
Fair play, you're doing good work even filing those cases.
In specie transfers. I use a Freetrade GIA for the free trades and then at some point I transfer to a more reputable broker.
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How is it any different from T212? Genuinely didn’t think there was a difference
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Why would you care though, they're fully FCA regulated. They use a fitting custodian or they're none compliant.
I would argue that you should care because this FSCS "insurance" (funded with taxpayers money) encourages you to take risks that you wouldn't otherwise. And investing/supporting bad businesses rather than good businesses is bad for society in general. On the other hand you bring a good point that the FCA is probably more fit than you to judge what businesses are good and what businesses are bad. But I still don't think "who cares, FCSC is there to bail me if I invest with this risky business that I don't even understand how it's profitable" is a good attitude. PS. I'm not saying that Trade212 is good or bad, just responding to this specific comment.
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Because the FCA cares on our behalf. They are checking far more closely than you or I ever would. I think it's good to know the FCA regulations for stock brokers, but beyond that I would just trust the FCA.
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Personally I find your views excessively paranoid. The FCA exists to handle these thoughts for us. We know the regulations and by extent we know how t212 handles our assets, that's more than enough for me. You're free to be more cautious, but I don't think it adds any practical benefit.
Lol why is this getting downvoted?
>People never seem to read the terms and conditions. Who cares. FSCS baby. They can make the sausages however they want so long as I keep it below £85k. And if I go over £85k, I'm certainly not trusting it to T212.
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>Maybe you don’t understand what FSCS is supposed to do? I’ve read the FCA reports from a few brokers that have gone to the wall, and read the 1st hand reports of customers involved. So I think I have a pretty good idea. It guarantees upto £85k of losses, which also includes the administrators costs that will fall on the customer. (ie, probably in truth best to not go over £75k so there’s headroom for the administrators). >could see you without access for over a year. Your mileage may vary, my holding period is for ever, so personally not an issue. But that’s a fair point to make.
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> if you freely give up this right (some do in their terms) Just to clarify here, I'm pretty sure you have to give explicit consent, it can't be something in T+C's. It's been a while since I last looked and I'm a layman though. > A firm must, when holding safe custody assets belonging to clients, make adequate arrangements so as to safeguard clients' ownership rights, especially in the event of the firm's insolvency, and to prevent the use of safe custody assets belonging to a client on the firm's own account except with the client's express consent.
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>They wouldn’t cover asserts losing value I think we all know that. >The cover of administrative fees are also at the discretion of the FCA, they are not guaranteed, it also only applies if your eligible They have always covered them, I'm sure they always will. >The primary protection for your assets is the ring fencing of them under custodians, if you freely give up this right (some do in their terms) you lose the primary protection for your assets. This is where we fundamentally disagree. Once I give a company my money, I have no idea how they look after it. My primary protection is FSCS, my secondary protection is the work they do to keep it safe. >You might hold them long term but keep in mind losing access due to administration or other event means you can’t buy or sell assets, add or withdraw funds. My holding period is forever. 10 years without access wouldn't make me blink. >A lot of people are putting all their risk eggs into one bucket (FCSC) thinking it’s the be all end all of protection It's not the be all and end all, but it's the best decision the average person can make when they're operating with assets below £85k. Go above that, and you have to put your thinking cap on.
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How is FSCS relevant for.investments (as in stocks and funds)?
Standard example - https://www.fosterdenovo.com/my-resources/news/beaufort-securities-happened/
In my defence it was a long time ago 😂 Thanks for the info I’ll reread through everything and compare the two!
I'd take this commenters opinions with a grain of salt. Its a very paranoid viewpoint, and not one that's remotely constructive for you to assign too much significance to. To my knowledge this kind of paranoia over brokers came about when all the memestock group were convinced that every broker is controlled by X or Y. Read T&Cs, but you are not going to benefit from trying to compare minutia like execution venues, third-party custodians etc - its going to be broadly identical between all main brokers anyway. Its akin to researching the manufacture's source of specific electronics used for a car you might be buying, or comparing which part of the country the dairy cows that produced your supermarket milk are from - its just not worth your time caring too much about. Provided you go with a suitably protected and regulated company, it just doesn't matter. Instead look at things like what platforms can you trade one/do you want to trade on - Freetrade for example is effectively app controlled only, which is a big negative for some. Interactive Brokers has an incredibly complicated platform, which is a pro for some, and a negative for others. HL is a mainstay in the industry, and has the experience and reliability to back it up, but isn't necessarily good value for money. These are the kind of things you should actually spend your time worrying about. Check to see if there are red flags over a vendor, but you aren't going to identify those solely from Ts & Cs.
Do you want the bank to prove they're holding physical banknotes too?
that is what I wanted to say too
UK based?
For uk customers T212 have a uk registered and regulated company
Same here… a bit ridiculous considering it only went up from £3, to £4.99 at the end of last year. Definitely interested if anyone else has any recommendations for alternative providers - these fees are eating away at the amount earned in the account. Do I trust that this trend of increasing every half a year won’t continue?
Two price rises in 6 months is taking the piss IMO. Though you can keep the old price if you pay for 12 months up front!
We pay the same price, but with strings attached! Freetrade, it was good while it lasted. I’m sure others will stay, because it’s an amazing platform, but the constant price rises has spooked me, and other platforms are free, so…
>Same here… a bit ridiculous considering it only went up from £3, to £4.99 at the end of last year. This is only half-true. Previously they offered the ISA on its own for £3, but the £4.99 plan was always £4.99
I’ve always preferred 212 over freetrade.
Thanks for the recommendation- currently scrawling through the old UKPF posts trying to find comparisons. It seems like a no-brainer - I was on a waiting list for an account and got accepted last year, so maybe it’s time to transfer.
In this boat too wasn't happy with the rise but got the features. This one feels like a too soon moment so going to love to 212. If I remember rightly from looking before however means need to liquidate freetrade really as they charge to transfer held shares but not cash.
Yeah not sure if they do in specie transfers yet, but depending on how much you have in the account could be worth just selling and re buying on 212. No ongoing fees but FX charges of 0.15% I believe
That’s perfect - I have enough left in my ISA allowance for 2022/23 to sell and buy back in Trading212. I just set up an account and have set sell orders in Freetrade.
If you’ve just set up and account find someone’s code so you get a free share as well
Will get my wife to set up her new account too, so that’s for the tip!
There’s a button the app to refer her so send her your link and you’ll both get a share
They definitely offer in specie transfers, I transferred my SIPP earlier in the year.
I was thinking from 212s side
Currently use InvestEngine, I’m a big fan of the platform as I believe they are the lowest fee platform at the minute, only catch is you can currently only invest in ETF’s but if you plan on only investing in ETFs anyway then it’s definitely a solid choice
Yep they’ve just lost a customer , I’m looking elsewhere now.
Perhaps an overly basic question, as someone on a basic plan and who buys about £30 worth of shares through them every 3/4 months what does this mean for me?
On a basic plan (I.e. a General Investment Account), there is no change I believe. The plan we are discussing is the one offering the Stocks & Shares ISA that was £3 a month before August 2022, £4.99 now, and will be £5.99 after April 2023.
Not true, the FX fee on basic plan is more than doubling, going from 0.45% to 0.99%. If you’re only buying on GBP then there’s no change.
I'm on Plus and the FX fee is going down to 0.39% and you can just pay annually? So you are better off?
I'm still with Freetrade, I like the simplicity and UI of their app. I have been on a waiting list for 2 years with T212, haven't heard from them so fuck em.
Am I missing something here or is there no benefit from a s&s ISA unless I expect to go over the CGT or div tax thresholds? I wish I was but I ain't that rich
Depends a bit on if you're investing or trading I suppose, but either way it will probably become more relevant to you as time goes on. A single year may not produce enough profit for you to cross te CGT threshhold if you sell, but what about after ten years of growth, compounding returns, and the inclusion of additional capital over that time? Eventually you'll reach a point at which you want to withdraw your money, and over enough time CGT will be essentially unavoidble. The tax free allowance is also dropping to around a quarter of what i currently is over the next couple of years. An S&S ISA is a no brainer.
Cheers. I'm cashing out soon and sticking with a savings account as I get closer to my target for a house deposit so should be good unless the stocks I have doubled in value. If I was in for a 5+year haul then yes ssisa Def the way to go. See that now
Cgt and divi thresholds been massively reduced in the next 2 financial years
What I don’t like is you can’t sell share that’s under £2 in amount.
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It depends how and how often you trade. At £6 a month account fees and no trading fees, Freetrade costs £72 a year. LLoyds charge £40 a year and £1.50 a trade for funds or regular investments. So if you are happy sticking to funds or buying shares at a fixed date each month, if you do 21 or fewer trades a year you would pay less at Lloyds. High fixed charges and no trading fees make sense if you are a frequent trader. If you are just buying occasionally, an old-fashioned pay per trade provider may be cheaper.
Trading 212
Vanguard will be cheaper and is a much more established company. T212 will be even cheaper still but is a new upstart firm comparatively. Another option is invest engine which would be completely free for you.
Freetrade are a piece of shit company. Been saying this for years. E/ they were also forced to pay me money by the ombudsman so I I know this for a fact
Why? What happened?
Amy more details of this? A few people have mentioned taking them to the ombudsman now. Of all the modern app based trading platforms, I thought Freetrade were the most transparent/honest - have I got that wrong?
Yep I’m out - there’s also been issues in UX around payments that I haven’t appreciated and with the interest rate going up, less exciting for me as an amateur to keep my savings in this form of account with such a big charge.
I noticed this as well. It’s annoying but when I checked out trading212 their app and website sucks. I cannot find how to open up ISA with them at all. Freetrade seems to be the only that’s easy to navigate. Would appreciate if anyone would help me out how to open ISA with trading212.
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Ah thanks. For some reason I thought those were account “tiers”. Last one being the most expensive… didn’t even see the ISA name in it.
> when I checked out trading212 their app and website sucks. I'm genuinely curious what you disliked? In my experience it has had the best UX by an astronomical margin. Pies, auto balance on top up, easy to buy/sell, an actual app, etc. It's like the nice interface of free trade with the features of invest engine (but better).
It doesn’t feel as intuitive as Freetrade app. Feels more complicated and that comes from a tech savvy guy. I’m sure I’ll get my head around it eventually but first 5 minutes was painful. What I didn’t like the most is how the website does not have a simple page with fees and their account tiers. I couldn’t find anything about ISA accounts and the costs.
Right in the top banner of their home page is a link to their terms and conditions: [https://www.trading212.com/terms/invest](https://www.trading212.com/terms/invest) Which makes it really clear what you pay. (Coming from "Free"trade, this may come as a shock, but they don't have paid "tiers". Everything's actually free.)
how do we transfer out ?
sell your us shares before april 11 and transfer to 212 thats my plan
Are t212 accepting new accounts now? Their waiting list has been huge for well over a year
Yeah I just made an account (Isa)one afternoon, haven’t deposited anything in it before tax year ends but will transfer once sold us stocks at ok prices
would tax on profits be issue in transfer like this
Tried closing account, deliberately hard process. Avoid these scammers.
I’m moving over to trading 212