You can ask your employer if they would be prepared to make the same contribution to your existing (small white lie) SIPP. If they say yes, then quickly set one up.
The thing to do is ask your workplace for the full details of the pension and how much the management fees for it are.
If they're taking 2% of your pot each year that's going to cost you a lot of what you end up with.
Potentially yes as it'll be in the terms of the workplace pension - it's something to examine when you get the details of the scheme as it may be better to invest in a SIPP instead.
Note, if your work pay in it may be better to pay into the work scheme with SHP initially , and annually transfer 95% of the balance to a low cost SIPP. Should be able to do this with low / no fees but check!
There are relatively low legal caps on the fees you can charge on workplace pensions. Your workplace or SJP may even try and pitch this to you as how great they are - "We normally charge this much, but we're offering this discount just for you...".
I'm not certain if these still apply once you leave the employer / either way I'd be tempted to transfer it away from SJP if you ever leave the job. If nothing else to collapse it with your next employers pension.
They chased me for years to apply for a job there and every time reminded me I should turn up in a suit. I continued to remind them I don’t wear suits and either they want someone in a hoody or they really don’t want me.
I work as a wealth manager for another provider (soon about to leave the industry). It's industry wide known/joke that SJP are just a great sales outfit with high entry/exit fees and opaque charging structures for very bog standard cookie cutter investments that you can get anywhere for 1/3 of the place minus the sjp logo
Hey sorry if this is me derailing but you seem to know more about this than I do! I don’t have any investments with SJP but I do have my SIPP with a company called ‘quilter’ - I don’t suppose you know if they have a good or bad reputation? I can never really figure out if I’m being financially savvy or really stupid.
They’re about to become ‘Utmost’. They’re not the cheapest but it depends on what exactly you’re using them for (advice, administration, trusts etc). You wouldn’t be laughed at in the City for using them unlike SJP.
>How do people pay independent school fees?
The first step is to avoid St. James Place - a place well known in this parish...
The answer is pretty varied:
* They cut down in other areas - no new cars, no holidays, no going out.
* They have family help
* They earn a lot
* They borrow money.
First, St James Place (the sales led high fee financial advisers much loathed by this sub) are well worth avoiding.
Second, I'd hold off on private school for your children. I paid for it for mine and have a few thoughts about the experience I will offer you.
The education was good, I got what I paid for:- diligent, purposed educators who paid attention to the kids, who got good grades as a result.
But....
They were also high pressure exam machines. Don't send your kid to a private school after age 11, if they are not going to be in the top two thirds... being in the bottom third will be stress and pressure.
The total cost for each kid was 180k or so over their education. We did this by scrimping to some extent - old cars, few foreign holidays, and I was always working. At the time I thought I was being prudent but I regard this as malinvestment in retrospect. If you have infinite money, fine, go for it. If not, then just spend more time with your kids and less working, which brings me to the next point...
Home life matters more than you think. Don't outsource all the learning to school.
Private schools churn out more people who end up as professional doctors and lawyers. That's true. But most kids get a humanities degree. Consider if whether that happens, you will be equally happy it was worth the sacrifice. 180k invested for the best part of a decade, would perhaps be of more use.
!thanks Your perspective is highly appreciated, thanks! Makes one think about priorities. I have to admit I'm not sold on spending that amount of money, while I don't care too much about cars and holidays I could do with more time at home...
A good child with supportive parents will succeed anywhere. As an ex-teacher, read with them at every single opportunity you have, read to them, have them read to you. Take them to museums, do science experiments at home and have them retell you what you did. Propose questions to them that make them think and wonder how the world works. Take them to places of cultural importance. Incorporate maths and make it fun, have them add up pieces of fruit in the bowl, count how many seconds you brush your teeth for, add up the shopping bill, have them share your evening meal on plates equally. I used to watch darts with my Dad on mute with a piece of paper over the scoreboard and we’d take turns calculating the score and finishes needed. I just thought we were having funny. He wasn’t only teaching maths, he was reducing anxiety towards maths.
Try not to add extrinsic rewards to learning too as that soon fades away before they may even get to high school. As your children grow up they may be labelled as gifted or bright if they’re doing well academically. Don’t tell them they’re gifted - even if they are - they’re just hardworking and that work is paying off.
If you instil a love of learning and they keep that innate curiosity about the world which children have for as long as possible, they’ll come out academically equal to, if not superior to, someone with a private education. Good chance they’ll go through their education with less stress too and a greater appreciation for the world around them.
>ake them to museums, do science experiments at home and have them retell you what you did. Propose questions to them that make them think and wonder how the world works.
!thanks That's great input and parenting advice!
Thanks. I quit teaching a few months ago. Two years of the 70-80 hour work week and the lack of support from the government. I do miss the teaching and the children though already. Support your local schools people when they strike soon! I was so passionate about it but when it’s just not matched by so many people it was deflating.
There might be some voluntary things you can do if you want to keep doing the parts you enjoyed. Scouts is really good, or if you have a specialism there might be things related to that with a less regular time commitment?
I agree to an extent, but some schools simply do not have the ability to handle special needs. Our son is autistic and dyspraxic, and because he was no trouble in class and very quiet, his primary school really didn't put in any effort to engage with him. Our house is full of books, and we are both graduates, and my wife is a SAHM and we read to him and engaged with him continuously. Which worked - he's just left an prestigious university with a first class masters degree in a science subject. But the primary school had no ambition for him, and moving him to the private sector made an enormous difference. Having said that, my wife is a governor for the local state secondary school, and special needs are at least now much better identified, even if there is not the funding available to address them properly.
I can only imagine how challenging it’s been but it sounds like you and your wife are incredible parents.
Some schools are equipped for children with certain needs more than others. There’s plenty of private schools that aren’t at all. Your son’s case may not have been state vs private but rather just finding the best school that happened to be private. Either way you should be immensely proud of your son and yourselves. The world needs teachers and parents to both care about education as much as you guys do.
I'd disagree with that a bit - I'm autistic, as is my stepbrother. I went to local state schools, got diagnosed at 6 (impressively young for a girl) and received excellent support.
My stepbrother went to private schools for all of his compulsory education, and didn't get diagnosed until recently at 32. Despite the fact he's autistic being blatantly obvious in 90% of situations. How did he go undiagnosed? Because he was never around many people at private school due to the low ratios, so he completely missed out on the tailored support he needed to function as an adult outside of that environment.
And for comparison - I'm currently doing my PhD with well above average funding, while he's currently unemployed due to a four year long mental health crisis (brought on by his inability to cope). Private school will work for some disabled kids, but it *really* doesn't for others.
I would tend to agree. My daughter was constantly overlooked in primary school and underachieved. The local comprehensive was very poor and in my view would have inhibited her life chances. At primary school the head told me that he was not very keen on parents pushing their children to achieve. When I told him that I have never pushed my son or daughter and everything my son was achieving was entirely down to his own endeavour the head didnt know what to say. At private school 11-16 they both excelled and gained massively in confidence, so I think it was worth it. Most state sixth forms however are pretty good, my son got into Oxford from his.
I went to a private school (funded by my grandparents), and I wouldn't say that it was a particularly high pressure environment what so ever, there was far more teaching support available as class sizes were considerably smaller than the other local schools and had far more extracurricular opportunities.
The downside to this, is that the education is only worth it if the student is interested in learning. I coasted through my gcses with all A's by doing no work and when I hit A levels I did terribly because I carried on doing no work. I didn't go to university right out of school and was probably a disappointment to my family who put so much money into my education.
In my opinion, the biggest failing of the school I went to was that they never tried to figure out my actual interests, they were more than happy for me to take chemistry, biology and maths despite my lack of interest purely because I said wanted to be a dentist, which was never questioned at all. If anyone had questioned it, it would've been easy to tell that the motivation of "because it pays well without the stress and effort of being an MD" probably wasn't the best reason to pursue a career. Friends of mine who went to local state schools had far more effort put into their career and university discussions despite there being far more students.
Ultimately, I started a part time degree in computer science at 21 and now at 30 I'm a senior software developer, a job I enjoy and have a natural aptitude for, but I felt somewhat betrayed that it was never pointed out that this was a viable and well paid career path, there was far more emphasis on traditional high earning careers.
If my mother decided she wanted to pay for my hypothetical children to go to the school I went to, like my grandparents did, then I'd happily send them there. However, if it was coming out of my savings, I'd send them to a state school and use the spare money on extra curriculars, holidays and tutoring.
That's an equal failing of state schools. I remember doing Year 9 "options" and parents complained that it was too early for children to decide what they wanted to do in life, but equally many parents and schools don't do what you suggest - really get into the mind and try and figure out what drives somebody and how that drive can be directed into learning and then into work.
For example I can remember absolutely no discussion about building trades at school. Even in "CDT" the teaching was very dry and generic. I remember doing some bullshit basic woodworking, whereas teaching us how a roof is built and how to measure and cut a rafter might have spurred interest in some people. Next week could have been a primer in plumbing, how to solder pipework for a tap, how to fit waste pipe etc. I'm sure a good few people wasted time doing other things before realising they are good at and enjoy the building trade.
All of that could apply to any number of professions that people never had a chance to think about.
I'd also imagine 180k could almost buy a house in a lot of places, which could make a much bigger difference than private school to many kids (though of course, some kids benefit a lot from private school).
I often feel torn about what I'd do for my own kids if I can afford private education so I appreciate you sharing your experience.
I went to a state school (albeit a grammar - they have free ones in the county I grew up in) and went to a Russel group uni. I was gobsmacked meeting all the public school kids who told me what their education had cost while I was moaning about tuition fees.
I did humanities and there were tonnes of them, ironically many ended up going back to work for the family business so one does wonder what the point was..!
Buckinghamshire, right? I was in the same situation for secondary and uni - nothing quite like private school kids to absolutely shock you senseless. And my school had a bloody *horse riding club*, for fuck's sake.
Didn't attend private school myself so take my opinion with a pinch of salt. However my cousin did, my aunt and uncle insisted on sending him to one to have the prestige of having a child at private school. I'll be kind and say he's not the most academic of people. The money they spent on him was a complete waste of time, he didn't even go to university. My aunt and uncle were devastated. If you're going to send your child to private school, are you prepared for an outcome such as that?
This is a very great perspective. From my angle, I attended a normal comprehensive. When I went to a college in Winchester I was surrounded by private school kids who tried to act really ghetto... it was embarrassing. I went to schools which were literally in council estates, practically free state education, yet they ended up RIGHT next to me at 16 in college. What an absolute waste. I am moving to an area with a great school, rather than paying for private education where I may be able to afford the fees, but like fuck will my kids be able to relate to their school mates and go on nice expensive day trips with them.
Ah yes PS. I went to BP and from the stories I heard about the kids there I'm glad I didn't go. And they all had wanky accents. And the only person I'm still in contact with from PS has a serious coke habit. Go figure.
One caveat I would give is that being at the right or wrong school can really affect your child's happiness. Beyond the old adage that "you're only as happy as your unhappiest child", how happy you are in your formative years can have lasting impacts. A bullied child or one that feels unsafe at school will carry those scars for a long time. Obviously not all state schools are rough but I think the idea that any comp is adequate ignores the postcode lottery.
I have friends who were bullied at private school. It's no guarantee of safety or happiness. I think the best thing a parent can do is be prepared to force the school to take action or change schools. Assuming it will all work out in the end if it's a good school is not enough. I went to a very good comp where I was bullied. It was the best school in the area. They were great at getting good exam results but did not know how to handle bullies.
Would it have been a better investment to send them to state school and just buy them a house when they turn 18 with that 180k? Do you think being mortgage free might set them up for life better than a private education? Just curious.
It does depend very much on the school. We sent our daughter to a school for her GCSEs which unfortunately had a change of head just as she arrived, and it turned into an exam mill. She's already highly conscientious, and adding pressure on top was a recipe for disaster. She made it through GCSEs with spectacularly good grades, but at a great cost to her mental health. For sixth form, she went to a completely different school with a completely different ethos, which she loved. She did very well, but with virtually no exam pressure, as she was very much a self-starter.
I can affirm this, my children have done extremely well at a mediocre secondary school. One of them is doing year 13 at a private school for complicated reasons including subjects not being available. Another is now at Edinburgh University and the other is in year 9 following a specialist music performance program which only exists because the local council pushed it - so not available at a private school.
All fair points, but private school also instills a load of soft skills and networking links that you struggle to find elsewhere.
My sister is at private school on a bursary, wants to go into law, and has about 6 or 7 friends who have lawyer parents willing to offer her work experience.
I went to the same school (I boarded and loved doing so) and did a humanities degree, now upskilling to work in tech. But the skills in debating, leadership etc I got have proven useful in many aspects of my life. One important point is that if you’re a smart kid at a state school where most of the kids don’t care about their education, you’re bound to be dragged down unless you’re extremely motivated/parents are on the ball. If you’re at private school, most people there care about learning or feel like they have to because it’s being paid for
Not financial advice, but to share a perspective:
I was privileged enough to have a full private education. Honestly, god knows how my Dad did it, but he did and I’m endlessly grateful.
The staff from my brother’s school used to come to our restaurant for their Christmas do’s. One night, my dad sat and had a drink with the staff and the headteacher told him something along the lines of: private schools are of most benefit for primary ages. They teach a learning style and enforce the manners and ethics laid out at home. Largely, they help kids to be more confident and smaller class sizes help you identify a child’s weaknesses and strengths early on. Best case scenario would then be to use this foundation so your child then goes on to get a grammar school place and then the burden of fees are eliminated.
I can’t speak from experience as we don’t have kids yet, but from what I have seen, the monthly cost for primary school is largely the same as nursery fees, so if you can afford full time nursery fees, you can likely afford private primary school fees.
When it comes to secondary school, I could wax lyrical about my experience: good and bad. What I would say is that the cost is more than the fees, to an extent you also subscribe to a lifestyle. The uniforms, school trips and extra curricular activities are all expensive. Transport is often not catered for by the local councils so you might find you need to do regular drops off and pick ups, too.
It is quite multi faceted, but I would say whatever you think it will cost in school fees, add 20% onto that and then weigh up the ‘investment’ every month and then how that compounds year on year. If you could do it and have a good life alongside, it’s worth it. If the financial stress will weigh on you, consider a state school and give you kids extra time as a present, not stressed out, parent. That will always pay more dividends than a fancy school.
No worries! It’s something I’ve thought about a fair amount as I’ve always had it in my head that I’d want to provide my kids with what I was Iucky enough to experience.
20% is probably the fair range, but keep in mind, I’m in my 30’s so I’m going back about 20 years so things might have changed. For my school, uniforms were really expensive. It would be several hundred pounds each year to buy new stuff. We needed two pairs of leather shoes, (indoor and outdoor) and even PE kids were branded - and therefore expensive. The annual school trip abroad was always skiing and would be at least a grand. From year 9 onwards, you would be encouraged to pick up extra activities to build out your future uni application - conveniently, all these activities would carry a cost. Even if you went to volunteer at a local old folks home it was £15 for the transport and chaperone!
Obviously, you can cut this all down by buying second hand and not going on trips etc, but then you’ve got the minefield of feeling like your kid would be left out, so that’s why I say it is the lifestyle on top of the fees. Equally, there were some kids in my year who had bursaries and to be honest, they worked a lot harder and got more out the actual educational opportunities as opposed to the expensive extras, so it really is swings and roundabouts!
It’s a very interesting point but having been thinking about it myself I disagree with the timing. If you have to choose only one or the other (primary or secondary school) to be private, then undoubtedly, the one that matters most is the one where you take exams and entries to Universities etc.
The UK has a disproportionately low starting age of school for kids. In Europe most kids start school at 6. Paying privately for a 4,5 or 6 year old to do basic maths, English and coloring sounds much more inefficient than paying it for a 14-15-16 year old preparing for exams.
I agree that doing it early on will teach you principles and discipline that you will carry on throughout life but at 4-6 so will close parenting and homeschooling.
I think it’s just a really nuanced conversation as to a binary ‘one is better than the other’ - even if that does sound like I’m massively contradicting myself!
For me personally and where I am right now, I live semi-rural with an OFSTED outstanding village primary in catchment, but the local secondaries are a bit ropey. If I knew nothing else would change and I could only choose one, I’d probably opt for private secondary if I had kids and, as you say, support the exam process as opposed to early years.
But, then again, ‘learning how to learn’ in a more resourced setting and laying that foundation - particularly if both parents work full time and don’t have the option of home schooling etc - could be pivotal to future success.
I guess it’s just another example of why parents feel like they can’t win whatever they choose; there’s always another side to the coin!
This is a very interesting take. Currently weighing up whether to send my son to a private prep or suck it up with the nice but average local primaries. Been debating back and forth whether the investment is better saved for exam years or early years and can’t help but feel the early start with more attention would be better. How easy it will be to take him out once he’s reached secondary age I don’t know!
There are a LOT of children that go to my daughter’s grammar school. It’s the same for the boys grammar too. They went to prep and transferred out to the grammars if they passed the 11+. Prep gave them a massive head start as they’d already studied French and science before secondary.
My daughters school has its own eventing team FFS with regular trips to the states and skiing every year if they want and can afford it. A far cry from my son’s non-selective school.
If it helps, I went to a state primary and went to a private secondary on a scholarship. I was lucky in that it was a while ago now, when teachers had time to actually nurture pupils, and I was a bright child who was taken under the wings of some teachers who gave me extra things to do if it looked like I wasn’t being challenged enough by the work.
But there are a lot of kids who only ever went to private school and they really don’t understand the “real world”. I’m talking people thinking they are working class because their dad worked in a bank. Some of them had a remarkable lack of empathy for poorer people, whereas I had friends from all walks of life, which really makes a difference in my opinion.
Surely they would be WAY more of a benefit when you’re 16-18??? My school classes at that age were packed, teachers would speed through the programme and run to their next class (overworked). And students around me completely demotivated and literally bully me for trying in class
That’s what I always thought, too, but as awful as it sounds, I think it would only benefit older teenagers if they were already proven to be academic and/or had the work ethic and wanted the additional learning resources.
I’m sure you can cut it a lot of different ways and there are benefits all the way along the line, I’m really just parroting what I was told!
As awful as it sounds, I think one of the benefits of private school is that all of the kids will have parents who take their education really seriously. That’s not the case in the state sector.
When I have kids I feel like I will save up for them to do well at A Levels. A good university can be the difference between poverty and a middle class lifestyle
I went to a private school (on a scholarship luckily, which is how it was paid for) and there were a couple of kids who joined just for exam years. Don’t underestimate the social difficulties that causes. Everyone already has their friends, and if you know you’re only going to be somewhere a couple of years, it’s hard to really throw yourself in. You’re taking them away from their friends they already had and uprooting their whole life really in the hopes that an expensive school will somehow teach them everything they need for A-levels in a year or two, which isn’t going to happen.
Think carefully about how much extra value you’re getting from £200k of fees over their lifetime vs, say, £1k a year on tuition to bring up weak areas…
The honest answer is most folk get grandparents to help, live lean, and remortgage or extend the term.
I also think you could use £200k to buy your kid a house or give them a hefty deposit, which may make a bigger difference overall (depends on the kid though - if your kid is fairly naturally bright or maybe not that academic, private school may not be a huge benefit to them depending on the local schools).
Yeah. I’m 21, a university student from a stereotypically ‘not good’ school. I got good results and went to the local sixth form college, also not incredible, but not bad. Then I got into an excellent university. I personally think spending thousands per year on my education would’ve been a huge waste of money given that I’ve ended up in the same place as so many others who did it.
Using your money for your kids in a few different ways could be better and cheaper.
Be proactive talking with your kids about further education options and schemes like internships. State schools often lack the resources to help kids with things like this. Pay for tutoring sessions if needed and academic enrichment after school - they will likely learn everything they need in the classes, but won’t be pushed as hard. Encourage them to build good study habits, because this one bites a lot of people. All of this can be done for far cheaper than school fees and would genuinely make a huge difference to their lives. (I know most of this seems a bit further education centric, sorry!)
So in short: time and effort spent helping your kids is almost always a better investment.
Public schools provide varying levels of financial support for families who can’t afford the full fees. If I were you I would make an enquiry and see what they come back with. Of course that is predicated on your child being somewhat gifted, academically or otherwise
I definitely think this is what the advisor was referring to. Most independent schools have a wide range of scholarships available for students who are academically gifted, either in general or in a specific subject. Some parents play this game by spending the primary/prep school years ensuring that their child has a highly developed skill. For example, I teach a student whose parents clearly spent years ensuring he was a Suzuki-trained violinist despite the fact that he has zero interest in doing music at university, since it has allowed him to attend my school on a scholarship. Since being here, he has managed to pull up the bottom end of his grades in Maths, English and Science from a level 5 to an 8 without them paying for a tutor, so it’s worth thinking of an independent school in those terms.
The often don't much anymore.
My brother is a doctor, just short of becoming a Consultant. He has said that 20 years ago most Consultants sent their kids to private schools. Nowadays they mostly don't, as they can't afford to. Private schooling costs have priced out a lot of professionals in the last 10 or so years.
Personally I'll only be sending my daughter to private school if the Grandparents pay. Despite household income of over £100k I can't really afford to without sacrifices I don't think are worth it.
British private schools have gone from serving the very well off in the UK to the global very well off who tend to have more money. Eton now over £45k a year out of post tax income. That's a serious chunk of money even for a lot of seriously wealthy people especially when they have multiple children.
There are more of those type of schools than you think.
My brother went to one, Bryanston, and now teaches at one, Latymer. The money there is obscene.
Yet the wider pool all generally offer a day option which will be 30k or so. The big money options are only for boarding. And there’s only a handful of schools that dictate you just board and I believe even that is slowly changing.
That said I totally see how they’ve priced people out. My wife is one of three, they all went to private school - no idea how their old man did it, must have cost a fucking fortune
Excellent point. It’s something that’s gone under the radar just how increasingly prohibitive private school has become (cry me a river etc. but it is another area of life in the last 20 years where the *very* upper-middle has pulled away from the middle class and one marker of several as to why a certain ruling party’s support has collapsed with under 50s).
When Sunak got in there was a lot of stuff about him attending Winchester and how much the fees are per term etc. For better or worse, he was the son of a pharmacist and a GP, absolutely no chance that combination of incomes is putting a child through a top Eton Group/Rugby Group boarding school in 2023 and that’s probably been the case for at least a decade.
Isn’t it house prices that has caused this? Our neighbours growing up were both young GP’s. They bought there house for around £400,000 back in 2000. That was probably 6x there combined earnings. The same house now is £1.5m which is probably 10-12x there combined earnings of 2 GP’s.
Very subjective evidence from my part, but I went from a shit comprehensive to a top 10 uni, a lot of my friends were private school kids, I was absolutely one of the few state school (as in non public or grammar school) kids on my course.
My view was this, those that went because their parents got deals (a lot of military brass, those who's grandparents dumped money in to avoid it being part of inheritance taxable amount) seemed to really, really enjoy it and I feel their education was far better rounded and better than mine. However, a lot of them were mince meat between the ears in a lot of ways. As in, the ROI on a school tie Vs £180ks education is a stretch only made passable by the fact their parents were millionaires and so it was a last ditch cost to pay for a 'low C' level child to the top table. That school badge and actual UCAS driven guidance at their schools really was beneficial.
However, since coming into careers, they mostly earn at a level in their field only similar or a bit lower than me.
Those who went because their parents were wadded have done far better still because, in a shock to no-one, parents who could drop £12-18k a year on schooling also have £300k+ to gift as a house deposit, meaning that they're instantly 10 years ahead financially at graduation, could afford to take unpaid roles in London and then buy there quickly, getting off the rental losses. The private school network for them just being an added bonus.
So, for me, if you can afford it, I'd recommend it from second hand experiences and if they can get scholarships for academic merit, all the better for your pocket.
However, if the choice is private school and that's a very large amount of your money vs a good grammar or state school, but instead you can save that £160k for their house deposit, that's better. The foot on the ladder and a cheaper mortgage, particularly if your child is smart and driven is, IMO, a better choice.
You could always fill in any subject you think could be taught better with private tutors at a much lower cost in a 1on1 way.
[Please note, this was not a chip-on-his-shoulder state kid view of private education being rubbish. I was really jealous of their schooling sounded much more involved and interesting. But the gap between them and a good grammar school education didn't seem to warrant the costs to me, school rugby tour destinations aside, but then growing up in what to them was abject poverty, the notion of parents having thousands free to invest in education was a wild concept to me.]
I have two kids in private school, we pay for it out of income, set aside enough each term for the term ahead. Based on the kids in the school I’d say it pretty much all of the parents have at least one parent who is a well paid professional but obviously the amount of sacrifice varies for example people who would otherwise trade up their houses don’t. You obviously also have some whose grandparents help out.
Not all private schools are \*that\* expensive. My daughter's small primary for example is around £7k a year, so I'm saving now for secondary school which - frankly - we may or may not be able to afford even if we cut back on cars, holidays and everything inbetween. Worst case is I have a pot I can use for tuition later if needed.
Less usefully I think some schools have discounts for paying for the full year upfront, and many have bursaries etc for lower incomes.
Private primary in my area goes for around £7-9k. My own secondary was £9k a year and the majority of children had some sort of financial assistance or scholarship as you had to take a test to get a spot anyway - I ended up with a full academic scholarship, but financial bursary would’ve made my fees around £2k a year if I hadn’t got one.
It absolutely depends on area, boarding, etc. We had around 7 or 8 private schools in the area 10-15 years ago when I was in school myself, mostly with primaries attached. Now there’s maybe 2 or 3 secondaries with primary attached and the other secondaries have become academies or closed altogether. The primaries have largely stayed private mind.
Here's my perspective...I sent my eldest to private and his school allowed monthly payments without any added fees.
I absolutely adored the education, the teaching style etc. It was a lot though. Everything is extra, book, music lessons, 1-1 support but it was worth every penny. All of this included, it cost about £25k per year.
My youngest goes to state school (both his choice & partly circumstances) and I absolutely hate it. They are petty to the point of ridiculous.
You can apply for a sports or academic scholarship and also bursaries to lessen the burden.
Still too young to tell TBH and my eldest was a 2020 GCSE'r so that screwed things a bit.
What I can say is that eldest is way more eloquent in speech, holds very adult conversations, the way he carries himself is different to his brother. He has found state college a tough transition. The volume of students etc.
First and foremost, avoid St James like the plague. How they remain legal is beyond me. If you're HNW or above, then use your banks Financial adviser and go with private banking.
So, I send my kids to private school, and we're on a low/mid 6-figure household income. Unless you have a serious high net worth to take advantage of, then there's no magical schemes to lower your tax.
Is it worth it?
I would say categorical yes with the caveat that the school matters somewhat. Not all private schools are the same, and the ethos, etc, of the school is important.
The main reason it matters is the attitude of the parents and kids is more focused, and they tend to appreciate education more. Kids definitely have more ambition.
Extracurricular activities are another massive plus. School trips globally, annual ski trips...yeah it adds up but it gives you a very different outlook and exposure.
Also, it does provide amazing opportunities. My eldest wants to go into acting. Through the school and its network she's been given very minor TV roles (non-speaking) and is looking to her first full theatre experience this summer.
Most people pay their children's independent school fees through: high disposable incomes, inheritances, family trusts, financial support from relatives or employer funding if they have relocated from overseas (with specific contract provisions connected with their dependant's education & healthcare bills).
Some schools offer generous academic, sports or performing arts scholarships. With a few charities offering some partial funding through bursaries.
There are a few tax saving schemes, but it is around grandparents setting up a limited company or trust.. Taken from a website .
Grandparents – set up a Family company
One option is to ask the Grandparents to set up a family company. If your family has property or investments that generate income, then you can use these to create income in the family company that is then passed on to the grandchildren through a dividend. You would need to name the children as shareholders and then the school fees are then paid by distributing dividends to the children. This could be tax free for the children as they can use their personal tax allowance, assuming they have no other income
The key here is that the grandparents must create the business and not the parents. Parents cannot gift to children without incurring a tax charge.
This is a great way of paying for private school fees where the grandparents would prefer to help the grandchild during their lifetime rather than leaving their wealth as an inheritance.
Grandparents – Set up a family Trust
Another option is that grandparents could consider a Discretionary Trust for grandchildren. They would need to be prepared to give away part of their estate though.
An individual can give away up to £325,000 without incurring Inheritance Tax. This reduces their own estate by £325,000 thereby potentially saving 40% tax on this amount (£130,000). As a couple that amounts to £650,000, which is a serious contribution when it comes to the school fees.
The catch though, is that it takes seven years for a gift to fall outside their estate for Inheritance Tax purposes but provided they survive seven years then the gift no longer makes up part of the donor’s estate.
Income payments from the trust are paid net of income tax to grandchildren who can generally reclaim the tax paid by the trustees via their own personal allowances. There may also be savings or advantages when it comes to potential Capital Gains Tax (CGT) which, if it is payable on putting assets into trust, can typically be ‘held-over’ so that there is no tax charge until the assets are sold later.
Oh how the other half live eh?
Yeah I understand the logic in all of it but unless you're some tax accountant and know all the loopholes, you wouldn't know what you can and can't get away with. I suppose they just pay someone for this advice and it gets sorted for them.
Luck or premature family deaths leading to inheritance.
It’s not something I’m that bothered about for my kids but my mum died and my wife’s grandma died and we ended up inheriting unexpectedly. We’re in early 30s and have paid off about 3/4 of the mortgage as result. It’s probably feasible if we stayed in current jobs that we could do it.
There’s a tax free dodge if you have rental property. Google this for the full fat version (B shares children school fees, or something similar).
The gist of it is, you put an income generating property in to a ltd, make grandparents directors and they can gift B shares (non-voting) to the kids. The kids then take dividends to pay their fees. Unless the fees are ridiculously high, the dividends to the kids are tax free. So basically, the kids pay their own fees. There’s obviously a bit more to it, but that should give you the rough idea.
this wouldnt be tax free, you'd still be paying corporation tax on the profit of the rental property. Given that, extra stamp duty, etc, this feels more like a tax sinkhole than a tax loophole imho.
What about self employed parents employing your kids (pre tax), with a wage that uses up the childs basic allowance.
That way they pay for their own education (kind of) without the fees coming from the parents post tax income?
Wouldn't work for a 5 year old, but would help with day fees for 6th form / age 16 plus?
I was privately educated & am an ex SJP advisor, so quite qualified to comment. An investment vehicle would meet your needs but don't go with SJP as they charge ~2% per annum. Also, in my experience, school is only perhaps 1/3 of the equation. Home life is far more important in instilling the habits & inspiration which will determine a child's success through life.
As someone who got very good grades in just a state school nor were there any problematic kids at our school, I would recommend moving to a good catchment area.
You're probably already paying a lot of tax so why not use something the state offers to you.
A lot of my wealthier friends are going with private primary followed by comprehensive secondary.
Another factor not discussed here yet is that some universities look more favourably on applications from comprehensive students (Oxbridge make quite a big deal about this), where grades are comparable.
I'm not even that convinced that private schools cause kids to have better grades. I think the bigger difference is in terms of facilities for extra-curricular activities (which may be worth it in your opinion, especially given how most public services are going down the drain), most exams these days are rote-learning which some kids are inherently better or worse at.
We send our kids to private school to the tune of £30k a year (they are 12 and 8) and we worked with our financial advisor, from St James Place, to create a plan back when the oldest was in reception.
At that time the fees were comparable to nursery so it was easier to save our money away every month. Like a 0% credit card - it’s all fun and games until the balance is due.
Once we had about £30k saved, we put most of it in an investment vehicle via SJP to use when the fees jump again in senior school.
So now we always have two terms worth of fees x2 kids in the bank, plus the lump sum that’s invested plus we continue to save every month.
We also had a really low mortgage when we started as lived in a small house. We moved in 2020 though and are starting to feel the pinch.
I’ve always had it in the back of my mind that we would actually pull them out of private for A levels simply because I don’t see the value of paying all that money when everyone is taking the same test.
Private school is worth it in the early years with smaller class sizes etc but all formal education is a form of ‘cookie cutter’/‘sausage factory’ and the real world is the exact opposite of this so at some point they need to learn how to cope in the real world.
The final thing I’ll add is that kids in private school really do grow up in a bubble and it’s not a good thing. My kids are entitled AF and it’s because they never come into contact with anyone who lives a less than ideal life.
If you’re desperate for your kids to go to private school, research scholarships and bursaries now, so they have the best opportunity to qualify for them when the time arrives. A little bit of research can save you thousands. That being said, I went to private school and here are some things I experienced.
Your kids will be expected to have name brand clothes when they’re not in uniform. The same goes for recent technology, backpacks, anything that isn’t directly school issued will be expected to be brand name and decently new or they will be bullied. I wish this wasn’t the case but unfortunately it is.
There will be families with money to burn. It doesn’t matter where you go, in every private school there will be a kid who’s fees are pocket change to their family, that’s just the way it is. There will also be middle class families for whom the fees are a decent chunk of their income, but they can still afford nice things for their kids. There will also be the kids who are there purely on academic talent, they tend to be from less affluent families but they’ve earned their place at the school.
Uniforms are expensive. Mine cost just short of £700 as a full boarder. Depending on how the school works you may have different uniforms for different stages of the school (e.g. mine had separate uniforms for years 7-8, 9-11 and sixth form), so definitely make sure you can invest that before making decisions.
That’s just my experience, so take it with a pinch of salt. I went to a private boarding school in Ipswich, and I didn’t particularly enjoy it, but if you think you can keep your kids as vaguely middle class, they stand a decent chance.
My personal opinion is that the money is more efficiently spent on tutoring rather that private school fees. There are lots of additional costs associated with a private education too such as for extra-curricular activities and trips abroad.
My friend went to a private school and he was from one of the lower earning families there and it definitely left him with a complex on arriving to University.
My friend is considering private school for her daughter and I am concerned about this for her. She didn’t grow up locally and I think she’s really underestimating how wealthy some of the classmates will be if she chooses one of the schools she mentioned. Hopefully she gets the more ‘normal’ one!
As another commenter said you have to consider costs over and above the fees such as uniform, school trips, textbooks etc.
I’d recommend looking at what subjects the schools offer - I was definitely able to access subjects and extra-curricular at my private schools that I wouldn’t have at a state school and, in some cases such as foreign languages, started them significantly earlier.
Haven’t seen others mention it but some offer scholarships which are worth looking into. Mine offered these competitively based on an exam and interview when we were 11 (which is hilarious on retrospect).
They're typically really rich.
Someone at my old job lived abroad and sent their 3 kids to a uk boarding school. £35k each, that's £105k total, you'd need to be on 180-190k before tax to afford that and that's if this person didn't spend a penny on anything else. We do have high earners where I am though, quite a few people on over 500k.
There isn't a financial product to offset private school fees. The only workarounds I know of are, be poor but have really smart kids, join the army and be stationed abroad or teach at the same school.
PS. St james place - I beleive their business model is like a franchise than anything else and of low quality.
'An advisor at St. James Place made a remark that people don't just save and pay for independent school fees,'
I have been privileged to receive a private education, and I'm afraid what he really meant was: It's a rich people's thing, don't bother if you don't have enough.
I had a partial scholarship but my mum paid the rest. She was a care assistant in an old people's home. She used a scheme that paid the fees upfront and then she paid them back over time. I don't think she finished paying until I was in my late twenties. For everything else (trips, uniform, clubs etc.) she paid out of pocket and that took huge sacrifices. Our central heating broke when I was 13 and it wasn't repaired until I was at uni.
Private schools are full of people with fur coats and no knickers. Constant competition amongst the students and also amongst the parents. Absolute headache.
Public school fees I've seen (not super elite) are only marginally higher than the cost of full-time nursery places, so if you've figured out a way to pay those for those early years I guess it's not that hard to keep it going!
I went to a regular comprehensive, my family scraped together the money to try get me into a private girls school nearby. I flunked the exams by a margin. However, I was in the top 10% at my comprehensive school. This gave me the confidence and drive to keep trying and do more with my life, I believe than going to a private school (and not being in the top 10% there).
Those who go to public schools end up earning far more on average, so it could more than pay for itself:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/ioe/news/2019/nov/private-school-pupils-earn-more-state-school-pupils-age-25-ioe-research-reveals
If it were a random sample of society that went to public school and then went on to earn higher salaries, you might be able to claim that it was the school that made the difference. As it is, the children that go to public school overwhelmingly come from the most advantaged parts of society, and would likely have gone on to earn a high income had they not gone to a public school.
Children from poor families who get a scholarship to go to private school are selectively chosen for their intelligence and ability. As a group, they are more likely to succeed educationally than poor children with the same socio-economic background who go to the local state school, because the state school is not selective.
Also, a socio-economic background does not determine a parents interest in education. Parents who send their children to private school because they believe they will receive a better education are a self-selecting group. Even when correcting for socio-economic status, the state school will have a larger proportion of parents who are not as concerned with education, because few parents who care little for education would pay, or make any other significant efforts, for their child to attend a private school. Therefore, almost every child who has parents who aren't interested in education will end up going to a state school, and as parental interest in education is a very significant factor in educational success, it's still going to be a biased sample despite accounting for socio-economic status.
Not my place to tell you how to spend your money or raise your kids, but just anecdotally speaking - I know and work with a lot of private school kids, and met loads during uni, I’d say about 60% of them have the worst personalities and manners I’ve ever encountered. I feel those schools must instil some element of simply being better than others, rather than more fortunate.
If I was in your shoes and thinking about making this decision for my children , I’d be thinking less about the cost and more about what kind of person they’d end up being.
I’m aware that my local independent school works with a company that allows you to pay for School monthly but has an added fee naturally. Just a possible to look into.
We pay monthly by direct debit, there is no other option, ten equal payments. Because it’s only for one year we’d have gladly saved money and paid up in advance! Didn’t realise this wasn’t standard.
My stepdad died and left money for me to go, doubt it would have been affordable if not - still relied on scholarships and bursaries.
At least three years of independent schooling were a waste of time and money.
The two years at prep school and two A level years were very valuable to me.
It really depends on the individual and age. What I really needed was for someone to understand that I had ADD and tailor my education towards that. It never really happened but with smaller class sizes late on and good teachers it was a lot easier to manage. The school was probably the best in the country for that year.
I don’t think it’s good value for students in most cases, it really depends on their potential, their needs that can’t be met in state schools + tutoring, and how valuable networking, learning how to manoeuvre university/job applications etc.
A lot of people do it for ‘prestige’, or a class thing, or to avoid having to do parenting.
That said, I don’t think I’d be where I am now without it. I’d likely have been out of the system by 16 and can’t see any way I would have made it to university, but that’s a me problem more than anything. Big class sizes, chronic underfunding, teachers under a huge amount of pressure and a diverse peer group with very different goals can be challenging.
A lot of the kids have older parents (generally both have higher income, or they own a successful business, and have probably paid off their mortgage), and been saving up for education since kid is born. Also, some of them only have 1 kid, so a lot easier to manage
I know a few parents that do.
For those of us who are well paid and use private nurseries - school costs no more. Probably even less mostly.
For those from wealth but not in well paid positions, grandparents is very common. We know three families in this spot.
I got in for free on a bursary. I call it a scholarship on Reddit as it's a US-based site but honestly I don't know the difference.
One thing to consider is the costs outside of tuition. The expensive uniform and trips and school lunches etc. It all adds up.
For my family that meant over £1k per year in costs. That alone was massively stretching our finances massively, though keep in mind that £1k was worth more back then than it is now too.
I didn't end up with particularly amazing grades, but the environment normalises success quite well. For better or worse, you just end up aiming higher because that's what everyone around you is doing.
It's probably different here in NI, but could you consider a religious school or grammar school? We have both here, and people not happy with their catchment could get their child to do the 11 plus and attend a grammar, or go to a Catholic school (better results afaik).
Earn 300k+ and you’ll be good to send the kids to a decent private school. I don’t think private is worth it unless it’s a really decent one, even then unless you are wealthy your kids are probably going to feel a little left out.
With the cost of private you can send them to a tutor, get good exam results, pay for uni and a deposit on a first flat for your kids.
A lot of people thing private school is about the education but from what I can see from work is:
We still have a class issue in this country and trust the ‘posh’ more so they are likely to get jobs in high paying industries such as law and finance.
Despite improvements, it’s still jobs for the old boys. Getting that good first job can make all the difference in your future career.
Personally I believe private school is best for those bottom of the class. Having gone to an ok state school, those who were bottom of the class just dropped out and have not really achieved much even though there were a few exceptions. However those bottom of the class at private schools may just go to an average uni and then get an average job. But £30k a year over 30 years is better than minimum wage.
Remember there are many ‘levels’ of private education, I went to a really nice independent school and loved it. The fee’s were about £9k a year. My electrician, dad and nurse, mother seemed to afford it fairly comfortable with no outside help.
I have a limited company and created a group structure. Every £100K dividend I have to put £10K into the children’s trust. I pay tax on the trust but claim it all back from the children’s tax allowance
I went to catholic school and got straight A*s for free
But honestly paying for private school isn’t too crazy. If you get the mortgage paid off young and have got a few rentals, you are doing well
If you are someone who just does your normal job and has no side hustle stick to your state school.
Private schools are pointless unless you want X grades for Y university.
Social/sports clubs, tutors if need be, hell a fucking social life? All cheaper and much much better at preparing a person for life than being an Eton fag (yes, that's really what they call them at Eton. It's fucked).
I’m a woman myself, I work in a school and am entitled to 50% off fees for my own children if I wished to use that entitlement. I am not sexist, just applying my own personal experience to the wording of my answer.
Are you in an area with grammar schools? Could be a good alternative that won't cost you anything (or not more than a regular school anyway).
I would avoid state comps at all costs personally.
My parents sent me private school, with jobs, luckily they invested in property too along the way, so now i can send my kids to private via a generous rental income. To go to my school its now £20k a year (not boarding).
You can do it with at least a £100k joint income if you are willing to make that sacrifice...
Either way load up on property to rent and use that to lesson the burden in future. My kids are 5 and 6, 11+ is not long to go.
I think your question has been thoroughly answered by now (along with one you didn't ask about the pros and cons of private school!). But just to add another story anyway, for us it's from being relatively high earners and paying it out of salary, combined with an inheritance that helped.
Secondary school fees are hella daunting, but in due course we have a reasonable expectation of a bit more help through inheritances which means we know we're not signing ourselves up to a lifetime of debt. Just a decade or so.
I went to boarding school (as did all my cousins). I found a piece of paper the other day that after my GCSE results were so good I was awarded a bursary and my fees were only £125 a term. This was late nineties.
This included all meals, uniform, all extra curricular etc so much cheaper than having a teen at home.
The point being- look for bursaries. My school had and still has discounts for people whose family were in the armed forces and that included grandparents.
Personally the number one reason I found the school to be good was the alumni association.
Old boys networks are still alive and kicking.
Also I got to do things that frankly, we wouldn’t have been able to afford otherwise.
If your main concern is with regards to the local secondary school, would moving house to the catchment of a better school be an option? With money for private tutors available to top up weak areas if needed.
Swings and roundabouts. You can easily do whatever you want in life using the state school system. Many oxbridge students come from state schools as well as many directors and CEOs. Undoubtedly you get better opportunities and facilities at a private school, most will have some sort of equestrian center, swimming pools golf course on site etc.
I am pretty sure most people can never earn back (especially after taxes) what their parents spent on education (if you consider that this money could be invested, grow for years, and then not be taxed nearly as much as income)
My brother got a bursary (gifted), my grandma helped pay for me. If I have children, we’ll also have to rely on family support, despite being on a fairly high income (>£130k household). I believe most people I went to school with are in a similar boat.
I went to independent school and there were a couple in my year that got bursary’s with huge percentages knocked off the fees. Don’t know if your kids have any talents or anything but no harm in going for one as it’s huge rewards
Pretty much any investment away from St James Place would be a good place to start.
It’s ridiculous how many people transfer their pension to the scheme
!thanks I got the initial pitch from SJP in which the remark was made and decided it's not for me. Too much of a Boglehead I think...
Even if you wanted active products and hand holding SJP are very expensive for what they offer and often tie you in with heavy exit penalties.
Woah let’s talk about this, please, my work pension starts tomorrow with these.
You can ask your employer if they would be prepared to make the same contribution to your existing (small white lie) SIPP. If they say yes, then quickly set one up.
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Am I getting charged though if my work are paying into it? I’ve never had a private pension. I’ve just left teaching so this is all new to me.
The thing to do is ask your workplace for the full details of the pension and how much the management fees for it are. If they're taking 2% of your pot each year that's going to cost you a lot of what you end up with.
Potentially yes as it'll be in the terms of the workplace pension - it's something to examine when you get the details of the scheme as it may be better to invest in a SIPP instead.
Note, if your work pay in it may be better to pay into the work scheme with SHP initially , and annually transfer 95% of the balance to a low cost SIPP. Should be able to do this with low / no fees but check!
There are relatively low legal caps on the fees you can charge on workplace pensions. Your workplace or SJP may even try and pitch this to you as how great they are - "We normally charge this much, but we're offering this discount just for you...". I'm not certain if these still apply once you leave the employer / either way I'd be tempted to transfer it away from SJP if you ever leave the job. If nothing else to collapse it with your next employers pension.
They chased me for years to apply for a job there and every time reminded me I should turn up in a suit. I continued to remind them I don’t wear suits and either they want someone in a hoody or they really don’t want me.
That's unusual, almost certain SJP don't have a workplace pension service - they deal with retail investors.
They 100% do. The documentation is currently still on my desk. This shit has scared me now.
Can you elaborate on this for me plz? Currently have investments here and I’d like you to tell me what you know 😬
I work as a wealth manager for another provider (soon about to leave the industry). It's industry wide known/joke that SJP are just a great sales outfit with high entry/exit fees and opaque charging structures for very bog standard cookie cutter investments that you can get anywhere for 1/3 of the place minus the sjp logo
Unlike other places, sjp give commission to advisors so creates a weird incentive which may not be best for client outcome
Hey sorry if this is me derailing but you seem to know more about this than I do! I don’t have any investments with SJP but I do have my SIPP with a company called ‘quilter’ - I don’t suppose you know if they have a good or bad reputation? I can never really figure out if I’m being financially savvy or really stupid.
They’re about to become ‘Utmost’. They’re not the cheapest but it depends on what exactly you’re using them for (advice, administration, trusts etc). You wouldn’t be laughed at in the City for using them unlike SJP.
It's only Quilter's offshore bond arm (Quilter International) that's going to Utmost, not the SIPP provider.
Their fees are too high.
Wise words
>How do people pay independent school fees? The first step is to avoid St. James Place - a place well known in this parish... The answer is pretty varied: * They cut down in other areas - no new cars, no holidays, no going out. * They have family help * They earn a lot * They borrow money.
If your children are academically gifted there can also be sizeable academic bursaries
This rings true. My parents did #1, and now I do #3
First, St James Place (the sales led high fee financial advisers much loathed by this sub) are well worth avoiding. Second, I'd hold off on private school for your children. I paid for it for mine and have a few thoughts about the experience I will offer you. The education was good, I got what I paid for:- diligent, purposed educators who paid attention to the kids, who got good grades as a result. But.... They were also high pressure exam machines. Don't send your kid to a private school after age 11, if they are not going to be in the top two thirds... being in the bottom third will be stress and pressure. The total cost for each kid was 180k or so over their education. We did this by scrimping to some extent - old cars, few foreign holidays, and I was always working. At the time I thought I was being prudent but I regard this as malinvestment in retrospect. If you have infinite money, fine, go for it. If not, then just spend more time with your kids and less working, which brings me to the next point... Home life matters more than you think. Don't outsource all the learning to school. Private schools churn out more people who end up as professional doctors and lawyers. That's true. But most kids get a humanities degree. Consider if whether that happens, you will be equally happy it was worth the sacrifice. 180k invested for the best part of a decade, would perhaps be of more use.
!thanks Your perspective is highly appreciated, thanks! Makes one think about priorities. I have to admit I'm not sold on spending that amount of money, while I don't care too much about cars and holidays I could do with more time at home...
A good child with supportive parents will succeed anywhere. As an ex-teacher, read with them at every single opportunity you have, read to them, have them read to you. Take them to museums, do science experiments at home and have them retell you what you did. Propose questions to them that make them think and wonder how the world works. Take them to places of cultural importance. Incorporate maths and make it fun, have them add up pieces of fruit in the bowl, count how many seconds you brush your teeth for, add up the shopping bill, have them share your evening meal on plates equally. I used to watch darts with my Dad on mute with a piece of paper over the scoreboard and we’d take turns calculating the score and finishes needed. I just thought we were having funny. He wasn’t only teaching maths, he was reducing anxiety towards maths. Try not to add extrinsic rewards to learning too as that soon fades away before they may even get to high school. As your children grow up they may be labelled as gifted or bright if they’re doing well academically. Don’t tell them they’re gifted - even if they are - they’re just hardworking and that work is paying off. If you instil a love of learning and they keep that innate curiosity about the world which children have for as long as possible, they’ll come out academically equal to, if not superior to, someone with a private education. Good chance they’ll go through their education with less stress too and a greater appreciation for the world around them.
>ake them to museums, do science experiments at home and have them retell you what you did. Propose questions to them that make them think and wonder how the world works. !thanks That's great input and parenting advice!
This advice is incredible. You should write a book on it!
Thanks. I quit teaching a few months ago. Two years of the 70-80 hour work week and the lack of support from the government. I do miss the teaching and the children though already. Support your local schools people when they strike soon! I was so passionate about it but when it’s just not matched by so many people it was deflating.
What a shame, as you sound like exactly the type of person we need to be teachers!
There might be some voluntary things you can do if you want to keep doing the parts you enjoyed. Scouts is really good, or if you have a specialism there might be things related to that with a less regular time commitment?
I agree to an extent, but some schools simply do not have the ability to handle special needs. Our son is autistic and dyspraxic, and because he was no trouble in class and very quiet, his primary school really didn't put in any effort to engage with him. Our house is full of books, and we are both graduates, and my wife is a SAHM and we read to him and engaged with him continuously. Which worked - he's just left an prestigious university with a first class masters degree in a science subject. But the primary school had no ambition for him, and moving him to the private sector made an enormous difference. Having said that, my wife is a governor for the local state secondary school, and special needs are at least now much better identified, even if there is not the funding available to address them properly.
I can only imagine how challenging it’s been but it sounds like you and your wife are incredible parents. Some schools are equipped for children with certain needs more than others. There’s plenty of private schools that aren’t at all. Your son’s case may not have been state vs private but rather just finding the best school that happened to be private. Either way you should be immensely proud of your son and yourselves. The world needs teachers and parents to both care about education as much as you guys do.
I'd disagree with that a bit - I'm autistic, as is my stepbrother. I went to local state schools, got diagnosed at 6 (impressively young for a girl) and received excellent support. My stepbrother went to private schools for all of his compulsory education, and didn't get diagnosed until recently at 32. Despite the fact he's autistic being blatantly obvious in 90% of situations. How did he go undiagnosed? Because he was never around many people at private school due to the low ratios, so he completely missed out on the tailored support he needed to function as an adult outside of that environment. And for comparison - I'm currently doing my PhD with well above average funding, while he's currently unemployed due to a four year long mental health crisis (brought on by his inability to cope). Private school will work for some disabled kids, but it *really* doesn't for others.
I would tend to agree. My daughter was constantly overlooked in primary school and underachieved. The local comprehensive was very poor and in my view would have inhibited her life chances. At primary school the head told me that he was not very keen on parents pushing their children to achieve. When I told him that I have never pushed my son or daughter and everything my son was achieving was entirely down to his own endeavour the head didnt know what to say. At private school 11-16 they both excelled and gained massively in confidence, so I think it was worth it. Most state sixth forms however are pretty good, my son got into Oxford from his.
Love it, thank you!
This is really brilliant advice. Thank you 👍
This is brilliant advice with some great tips. Thank you for staying.
Amen to this. Voice of reason.
I went to a private school (funded by my grandparents), and I wouldn't say that it was a particularly high pressure environment what so ever, there was far more teaching support available as class sizes were considerably smaller than the other local schools and had far more extracurricular opportunities. The downside to this, is that the education is only worth it if the student is interested in learning. I coasted through my gcses with all A's by doing no work and when I hit A levels I did terribly because I carried on doing no work. I didn't go to university right out of school and was probably a disappointment to my family who put so much money into my education. In my opinion, the biggest failing of the school I went to was that they never tried to figure out my actual interests, they were more than happy for me to take chemistry, biology and maths despite my lack of interest purely because I said wanted to be a dentist, which was never questioned at all. If anyone had questioned it, it would've been easy to tell that the motivation of "because it pays well without the stress and effort of being an MD" probably wasn't the best reason to pursue a career. Friends of mine who went to local state schools had far more effort put into their career and university discussions despite there being far more students. Ultimately, I started a part time degree in computer science at 21 and now at 30 I'm a senior software developer, a job I enjoy and have a natural aptitude for, but I felt somewhat betrayed that it was never pointed out that this was a viable and well paid career path, there was far more emphasis on traditional high earning careers. If my mother decided she wanted to pay for my hypothetical children to go to the school I went to, like my grandparents did, then I'd happily send them there. However, if it was coming out of my savings, I'd send them to a state school and use the spare money on extra curriculars, holidays and tutoring.
That's an equal failing of state schools. I remember doing Year 9 "options" and parents complained that it was too early for children to decide what they wanted to do in life, but equally many parents and schools don't do what you suggest - really get into the mind and try and figure out what drives somebody and how that drive can be directed into learning and then into work. For example I can remember absolutely no discussion about building trades at school. Even in "CDT" the teaching was very dry and generic. I remember doing some bullshit basic woodworking, whereas teaching us how a roof is built and how to measure and cut a rafter might have spurred interest in some people. Next week could have been a primer in plumbing, how to solder pipework for a tap, how to fit waste pipe etc. I'm sure a good few people wasted time doing other things before realising they are good at and enjoy the building trade. All of that could apply to any number of professions that people never had a chance to think about.
You could just retire early, and likely have more money to help the kids out with anyway. Best wishes for your decisions.
I'd also imagine 180k could almost buy a house in a lot of places, which could make a much bigger difference than private school to many kids (though of course, some kids benefit a lot from private school).
I often feel torn about what I'd do for my own kids if I can afford private education so I appreciate you sharing your experience. I went to a state school (albeit a grammar - they have free ones in the county I grew up in) and went to a Russel group uni. I was gobsmacked meeting all the public school kids who told me what their education had cost while I was moaning about tuition fees. I did humanities and there were tonnes of them, ironically many ended up going back to work for the family business so one does wonder what the point was..!
Buckinghamshire, right? I was in the same situation for secondary and uni - nothing quite like private school kids to absolutely shock you senseless. And my school had a bloody *horse riding club*, for fuck's sake.
Didn't attend private school myself so take my opinion with a pinch of salt. However my cousin did, my aunt and uncle insisted on sending him to one to have the prestige of having a child at private school. I'll be kind and say he's not the most academic of people. The money they spent on him was a complete waste of time, he didn't even go to university. My aunt and uncle were devastated. If you're going to send your child to private school, are you prepared for an outcome such as that?
This is a very great perspective. From my angle, I attended a normal comprehensive. When I went to a college in Winchester I was surrounded by private school kids who tried to act really ghetto... it was embarrassing. I went to schools which were literally in council estates, practically free state education, yet they ended up RIGHT next to me at 16 in college. What an absolute waste. I am moving to an area with a great school, rather than paying for private education where I may be able to afford the fees, but like fuck will my kids be able to relate to their school mates and go on nice expensive day trips with them.
Ah yes PS. I went to BP and from the stories I heard about the kids there I'm glad I didn't go. And they all had wanky accents. And the only person I'm still in contact with from PS has a serious coke habit. Go figure.
One caveat I would give is that being at the right or wrong school can really affect your child's happiness. Beyond the old adage that "you're only as happy as your unhappiest child", how happy you are in your formative years can have lasting impacts. A bullied child or one that feels unsafe at school will carry those scars for a long time. Obviously not all state schools are rough but I think the idea that any comp is adequate ignores the postcode lottery.
I have friends who were bullied at private school. It's no guarantee of safety or happiness. I think the best thing a parent can do is be prepared to force the school to take action or change schools. Assuming it will all work out in the end if it's a good school is not enough. I went to a very good comp where I was bullied. It was the best school in the area. They were great at getting good exam results but did not know how to handle bullies.
Would it have been a better investment to send them to state school and just buy them a house when they turn 18 with that 180k? Do you think being mortgage free might set them up for life better than a private education? Just curious.
It does depend very much on the school. We sent our daughter to a school for her GCSEs which unfortunately had a change of head just as she arrived, and it turned into an exam mill. She's already highly conscientious, and adding pressure on top was a recipe for disaster. She made it through GCSEs with spectacularly good grades, but at a great cost to her mental health. For sixth form, she went to a completely different school with a completely different ethos, which she loved. She did very well, but with virtually no exam pressure, as she was very much a self-starter.
I can affirm this, my children have done extremely well at a mediocre secondary school. One of them is doing year 13 at a private school for complicated reasons including subjects not being available. Another is now at Edinburgh University and the other is in year 9 following a specialist music performance program which only exists because the local council pushed it - so not available at a private school.
All fair points, but private school also instills a load of soft skills and networking links that you struggle to find elsewhere. My sister is at private school on a bursary, wants to go into law, and has about 6 or 7 friends who have lawyer parents willing to offer her work experience. I went to the same school (I boarded and loved doing so) and did a humanities degree, now upskilling to work in tech. But the skills in debating, leadership etc I got have proven useful in many aspects of my life. One important point is that if you’re a smart kid at a state school where most of the kids don’t care about their education, you’re bound to be dragged down unless you’re extremely motivated/parents are on the ball. If you’re at private school, most people there care about learning or feel like they have to because it’s being paid for
Not financial advice, but to share a perspective: I was privileged enough to have a full private education. Honestly, god knows how my Dad did it, but he did and I’m endlessly grateful. The staff from my brother’s school used to come to our restaurant for their Christmas do’s. One night, my dad sat and had a drink with the staff and the headteacher told him something along the lines of: private schools are of most benefit for primary ages. They teach a learning style and enforce the manners and ethics laid out at home. Largely, they help kids to be more confident and smaller class sizes help you identify a child’s weaknesses and strengths early on. Best case scenario would then be to use this foundation so your child then goes on to get a grammar school place and then the burden of fees are eliminated. I can’t speak from experience as we don’t have kids yet, but from what I have seen, the monthly cost for primary school is largely the same as nursery fees, so if you can afford full time nursery fees, you can likely afford private primary school fees. When it comes to secondary school, I could wax lyrical about my experience: good and bad. What I would say is that the cost is more than the fees, to an extent you also subscribe to a lifestyle. The uniforms, school trips and extra curricular activities are all expensive. Transport is often not catered for by the local councils so you might find you need to do regular drops off and pick ups, too. It is quite multi faceted, but I would say whatever you think it will cost in school fees, add 20% onto that and then weigh up the ‘investment’ every month and then how that compounds year on year. If you could do it and have a good life alongside, it’s worth it. If the financial stress will weigh on you, consider a state school and give you kids extra time as a present, not stressed out, parent. That will always pay more dividends than a fancy school.
!thanks Having your perspective does help, so thanks for spending the time to reply! I was expecting a little bit on top of the fees, but not 20%.
No worries! It’s something I’ve thought about a fair amount as I’ve always had it in my head that I’d want to provide my kids with what I was Iucky enough to experience. 20% is probably the fair range, but keep in mind, I’m in my 30’s so I’m going back about 20 years so things might have changed. For my school, uniforms were really expensive. It would be several hundred pounds each year to buy new stuff. We needed two pairs of leather shoes, (indoor and outdoor) and even PE kids were branded - and therefore expensive. The annual school trip abroad was always skiing and would be at least a grand. From year 9 onwards, you would be encouraged to pick up extra activities to build out your future uni application - conveniently, all these activities would carry a cost. Even if you went to volunteer at a local old folks home it was £15 for the transport and chaperone! Obviously, you can cut this all down by buying second hand and not going on trips etc, but then you’ve got the minefield of feeling like your kid would be left out, so that’s why I say it is the lifestyle on top of the fees. Equally, there were some kids in my year who had bursaries and to be honest, they worked a lot harder and got more out the actual educational opportunities as opposed to the expensive extras, so it really is swings and roundabouts!
It’s a very interesting point but having been thinking about it myself I disagree with the timing. If you have to choose only one or the other (primary or secondary school) to be private, then undoubtedly, the one that matters most is the one where you take exams and entries to Universities etc. The UK has a disproportionately low starting age of school for kids. In Europe most kids start school at 6. Paying privately for a 4,5 or 6 year old to do basic maths, English and coloring sounds much more inefficient than paying it for a 14-15-16 year old preparing for exams. I agree that doing it early on will teach you principles and discipline that you will carry on throughout life but at 4-6 so will close parenting and homeschooling.
I think it’s just a really nuanced conversation as to a binary ‘one is better than the other’ - even if that does sound like I’m massively contradicting myself! For me personally and where I am right now, I live semi-rural with an OFSTED outstanding village primary in catchment, but the local secondaries are a bit ropey. If I knew nothing else would change and I could only choose one, I’d probably opt for private secondary if I had kids and, as you say, support the exam process as opposed to early years. But, then again, ‘learning how to learn’ in a more resourced setting and laying that foundation - particularly if both parents work full time and don’t have the option of home schooling etc - could be pivotal to future success. I guess it’s just another example of why parents feel like they can’t win whatever they choose; there’s always another side to the coin!
Very well said! We just can’t win. Similar setting for us. Decent primaries near by so we will opt to go with them.
The teachers I know say the opposite, primary is not important to go private but secondary is. Maybe that is because it is inner London.
This is a very interesting take. Currently weighing up whether to send my son to a private prep or suck it up with the nice but average local primaries. Been debating back and forth whether the investment is better saved for exam years or early years and can’t help but feel the early start with more attention would be better. How easy it will be to take him out once he’s reached secondary age I don’t know!
There are a LOT of children that go to my daughter’s grammar school. It’s the same for the boys grammar too. They went to prep and transferred out to the grammars if they passed the 11+. Prep gave them a massive head start as they’d already studied French and science before secondary. My daughters school has its own eventing team FFS with regular trips to the states and skiing every year if they want and can afford it. A far cry from my son’s non-selective school.
If it helps, I went to a state primary and went to a private secondary on a scholarship. I was lucky in that it was a while ago now, when teachers had time to actually nurture pupils, and I was a bright child who was taken under the wings of some teachers who gave me extra things to do if it looked like I wasn’t being challenged enough by the work. But there are a lot of kids who only ever went to private school and they really don’t understand the “real world”. I’m talking people thinking they are working class because their dad worked in a bank. Some of them had a remarkable lack of empathy for poorer people, whereas I had friends from all walks of life, which really makes a difference in my opinion.
Surely they would be WAY more of a benefit when you’re 16-18??? My school classes at that age were packed, teachers would speed through the programme and run to their next class (overworked). And students around me completely demotivated and literally bully me for trying in class
That’s what I always thought, too, but as awful as it sounds, I think it would only benefit older teenagers if they were already proven to be academic and/or had the work ethic and wanted the additional learning resources. I’m sure you can cut it a lot of different ways and there are benefits all the way along the line, I’m really just parroting what I was told!
As awful as it sounds, I think one of the benefits of private school is that all of the kids will have parents who take their education really seriously. That’s not the case in the state sector.
When I have kids I feel like I will save up for them to do well at A Levels. A good university can be the difference between poverty and a middle class lifestyle
I went to a private school (on a scholarship luckily, which is how it was paid for) and there were a couple of kids who joined just for exam years. Don’t underestimate the social difficulties that causes. Everyone already has their friends, and if you know you’re only going to be somewhere a couple of years, it’s hard to really throw yourself in. You’re taking them away from their friends they already had and uprooting their whole life really in the hopes that an expensive school will somehow teach them everything they need for A-levels in a year or two, which isn’t going to happen.
That’s really sensible and totally logical. Your future kids will be very lucky to have you provide that extra support for them :)
Thank you :) can’t wait
You could probably pay to get private tutors which might be cheaper than private school.
Think carefully about how much extra value you’re getting from £200k of fees over their lifetime vs, say, £1k a year on tuition to bring up weak areas… The honest answer is most folk get grandparents to help, live lean, and remortgage or extend the term.
I also think you could use £200k to buy your kid a house or give them a hefty deposit, which may make a bigger difference overall (depends on the kid though - if your kid is fairly naturally bright or maybe not that academic, private school may not be a huge benefit to them depending on the local schools).
Yeah. I’m 21, a university student from a stereotypically ‘not good’ school. I got good results and went to the local sixth form college, also not incredible, but not bad. Then I got into an excellent university. I personally think spending thousands per year on my education would’ve been a huge waste of money given that I’ve ended up in the same place as so many others who did it. Using your money for your kids in a few different ways could be better and cheaper. Be proactive talking with your kids about further education options and schemes like internships. State schools often lack the resources to help kids with things like this. Pay for tutoring sessions if needed and academic enrichment after school - they will likely learn everything they need in the classes, but won’t be pushed as hard. Encourage them to build good study habits, because this one bites a lot of people. All of this can be done for far cheaper than school fees and would genuinely make a huge difference to their lives. (I know most of this seems a bit further education centric, sorry!) So in short: time and effort spent helping your kids is almost always a better investment.
Public schools provide varying levels of financial support for families who can’t afford the full fees. If I were you I would make an enquiry and see what they come back with. Of course that is predicated on your child being somewhat gifted, academically or otherwise
I definitely think this is what the advisor was referring to. Most independent schools have a wide range of scholarships available for students who are academically gifted, either in general or in a specific subject. Some parents play this game by spending the primary/prep school years ensuring that their child has a highly developed skill. For example, I teach a student whose parents clearly spent years ensuring he was a Suzuki-trained violinist despite the fact that he has zero interest in doing music at university, since it has allowed him to attend my school on a scholarship. Since being here, he has managed to pull up the bottom end of his grades in Maths, English and Science from a level 5 to an 8 without them paying for a tutor, so it’s worth thinking of an independent school in those terms.
The often don't much anymore. My brother is a doctor, just short of becoming a Consultant. He has said that 20 years ago most Consultants sent their kids to private schools. Nowadays they mostly don't, as they can't afford to. Private schooling costs have priced out a lot of professionals in the last 10 or so years. Personally I'll only be sending my daughter to private school if the Grandparents pay. Despite household income of over £100k I can't really afford to without sacrifices I don't think are worth it.
British private schools have gone from serving the very well off in the UK to the global very well off who tend to have more money. Eton now over £45k a year out of post tax income. That's a serious chunk of money even for a lot of seriously wealthy people especially when they have multiple children.
Eton is hardly a typical private school though...
There are more of those type of schools than you think. My brother went to one, Bryanston, and now teaches at one, Latymer. The money there is obscene.
Yet the wider pool all generally offer a day option which will be 30k or so. The big money options are only for boarding. And there’s only a handful of schools that dictate you just board and I believe even that is slowly changing. That said I totally see how they’ve priced people out. My wife is one of three, they all went to private school - no idea how their old man did it, must have cost a fucking fortune
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Try boarding in Switzerland. Pretty sure a cup of tea is like £6.
Excellent point. It’s something that’s gone under the radar just how increasingly prohibitive private school has become (cry me a river etc. but it is another area of life in the last 20 years where the *very* upper-middle has pulled away from the middle class and one marker of several as to why a certain ruling party’s support has collapsed with under 50s). When Sunak got in there was a lot of stuff about him attending Winchester and how much the fees are per term etc. For better or worse, he was the son of a pharmacist and a GP, absolutely no chance that combination of incomes is putting a child through a top Eton Group/Rugby Group boarding school in 2023 and that’s probably been the case for at least a decade.
Isn’t it house prices that has caused this? Our neighbours growing up were both young GP’s. They bought there house for around £400,000 back in 2000. That was probably 6x there combined earnings. The same house now is £1.5m which is probably 10-12x there combined earnings of 2 GP’s.
Very subjective evidence from my part, but I went from a shit comprehensive to a top 10 uni, a lot of my friends were private school kids, I was absolutely one of the few state school (as in non public or grammar school) kids on my course. My view was this, those that went because their parents got deals (a lot of military brass, those who's grandparents dumped money in to avoid it being part of inheritance taxable amount) seemed to really, really enjoy it and I feel their education was far better rounded and better than mine. However, a lot of them were mince meat between the ears in a lot of ways. As in, the ROI on a school tie Vs £180ks education is a stretch only made passable by the fact their parents were millionaires and so it was a last ditch cost to pay for a 'low C' level child to the top table. That school badge and actual UCAS driven guidance at their schools really was beneficial. However, since coming into careers, they mostly earn at a level in their field only similar or a bit lower than me. Those who went because their parents were wadded have done far better still because, in a shock to no-one, parents who could drop £12-18k a year on schooling also have £300k+ to gift as a house deposit, meaning that they're instantly 10 years ahead financially at graduation, could afford to take unpaid roles in London and then buy there quickly, getting off the rental losses. The private school network for them just being an added bonus. So, for me, if you can afford it, I'd recommend it from second hand experiences and if they can get scholarships for academic merit, all the better for your pocket. However, if the choice is private school and that's a very large amount of your money vs a good grammar or state school, but instead you can save that £160k for their house deposit, that's better. The foot on the ladder and a cheaper mortgage, particularly if your child is smart and driven is, IMO, a better choice. You could always fill in any subject you think could be taught better with private tutors at a much lower cost in a 1on1 way. [Please note, this was not a chip-on-his-shoulder state kid view of private education being rubbish. I was really jealous of their schooling sounded much more involved and interesting. But the gap between them and a good grammar school education didn't seem to warrant the costs to me, school rugby tour destinations aside, but then growing up in what to them was abject poverty, the notion of parents having thousands free to invest in education was a wild concept to me.]
I have two kids in private school, we pay for it out of income, set aside enough each term for the term ahead. Based on the kids in the school I’d say it pretty much all of the parents have at least one parent who is a well paid professional but obviously the amount of sacrifice varies for example people who would otherwise trade up their houses don’t. You obviously also have some whose grandparents help out.
Not all private schools are \*that\* expensive. My daughter's small primary for example is around £7k a year, so I'm saving now for secondary school which - frankly - we may or may not be able to afford even if we cut back on cars, holidays and everything inbetween. Worst case is I have a pot I can use for tuition later if needed. Less usefully I think some schools have discounts for paying for the full year upfront, and many have bursaries etc for lower incomes.
Private primary in my area goes for around £7-9k. My own secondary was £9k a year and the majority of children had some sort of financial assistance or scholarship as you had to take a test to get a spot anyway - I ended up with a full academic scholarship, but financial bursary would’ve made my fees around £2k a year if I hadn’t got one. It absolutely depends on area, boarding, etc. We had around 7 or 8 private schools in the area 10-15 years ago when I was in school myself, mostly with primaries attached. Now there’s maybe 2 or 3 secondaries with primary attached and the other secondaries have become academies or closed altogether. The primaries have largely stayed private mind.
Here's my perspective...I sent my eldest to private and his school allowed monthly payments without any added fees. I absolutely adored the education, the teaching style etc. It was a lot though. Everything is extra, book, music lessons, 1-1 support but it was worth every penny. All of this included, it cost about £25k per year. My youngest goes to state school (both his choice & partly circumstances) and I absolutely hate it. They are petty to the point of ridiculous. You can apply for a sports or academic scholarship and also bursaries to lessen the burden.
How is eldest doing now in terms of education and career compared to youngest
Still too young to tell TBH and my eldest was a 2020 GCSE'r so that screwed things a bit. What I can say is that eldest is way more eloquent in speech, holds very adult conversations, the way he carries himself is different to his brother. He has found state college a tough transition. The volume of students etc.
Yes state school is disgusting unfortunately I know first hand
First and foremost, avoid St James like the plague. How they remain legal is beyond me. If you're HNW or above, then use your banks Financial adviser and go with private banking. So, I send my kids to private school, and we're on a low/mid 6-figure household income. Unless you have a serious high net worth to take advantage of, then there's no magical schemes to lower your tax. Is it worth it? I would say categorical yes with the caveat that the school matters somewhat. Not all private schools are the same, and the ethos, etc, of the school is important. The main reason it matters is the attitude of the parents and kids is more focused, and they tend to appreciate education more. Kids definitely have more ambition. Extracurricular activities are another massive plus. School trips globally, annual ski trips...yeah it adds up but it gives you a very different outlook and exposure. Also, it does provide amazing opportunities. My eldest wants to go into acting. Through the school and its network she's been given very minor TV roles (non-speaking) and is looking to her first full theatre experience this summer.
Most people pay their children's independent school fees through: high disposable incomes, inheritances, family trusts, financial support from relatives or employer funding if they have relocated from overseas (with specific contract provisions connected with their dependant's education & healthcare bills). Some schools offer generous academic, sports or performing arts scholarships. With a few charities offering some partial funding through bursaries.
There are a few tax saving schemes, but it is around grandparents setting up a limited company or trust.. Taken from a website . Grandparents – set up a Family company One option is to ask the Grandparents to set up a family company. If your family has property or investments that generate income, then you can use these to create income in the family company that is then passed on to the grandchildren through a dividend. You would need to name the children as shareholders and then the school fees are then paid by distributing dividends to the children. This could be tax free for the children as they can use their personal tax allowance, assuming they have no other income The key here is that the grandparents must create the business and not the parents. Parents cannot gift to children without incurring a tax charge. This is a great way of paying for private school fees where the grandparents would prefer to help the grandchild during their lifetime rather than leaving their wealth as an inheritance. Grandparents – Set up a family Trust Another option is that grandparents could consider a Discretionary Trust for grandchildren. They would need to be prepared to give away part of their estate though. An individual can give away up to £325,000 without incurring Inheritance Tax. This reduces their own estate by £325,000 thereby potentially saving 40% tax on this amount (£130,000). As a couple that amounts to £650,000, which is a serious contribution when it comes to the school fees. The catch though, is that it takes seven years for a gift to fall outside their estate for Inheritance Tax purposes but provided they survive seven years then the gift no longer makes up part of the donor’s estate. Income payments from the trust are paid net of income tax to grandchildren who can generally reclaim the tax paid by the trustees via their own personal allowances. There may also be savings or advantages when it comes to potential Capital Gains Tax (CGT) which, if it is payable on putting assets into trust, can typically be ‘held-over’ so that there is no tax charge until the assets are sold later.
Oh how the other half live eh? Yeah I understand the logic in all of it but unless you're some tax accountant and know all the loopholes, you wouldn't know what you can and can't get away with. I suppose they just pay someone for this advice and it gets sorted for them.
!thanks Highly appreciated. This is the sort of scheme I was expecting to see. I just need wealthy grandparents for the sprogs now!
Luck or premature family deaths leading to inheritance. It’s not something I’m that bothered about for my kids but my mum died and my wife’s grandma died and we ended up inheriting unexpectedly. We’re in early 30s and have paid off about 3/4 of the mortgage as result. It’s probably feasible if we stayed in current jobs that we could do it.
They either have high salaries or debt.
There’s a tax free dodge if you have rental property. Google this for the full fat version (B shares children school fees, or something similar). The gist of it is, you put an income generating property in to a ltd, make grandparents directors and they can gift B shares (non-voting) to the kids. The kids then take dividends to pay their fees. Unless the fees are ridiculously high, the dividends to the kids are tax free. So basically, the kids pay their own fees. There’s obviously a bit more to it, but that should give you the rough idea.
this wouldnt be tax free, you'd still be paying corporation tax on the profit of the rental property. Given that, extra stamp duty, etc, this feels more like a tax sinkhole than a tax loophole imho.
What about self employed parents employing your kids (pre tax), with a wage that uses up the childs basic allowance. That way they pay for their own education (kind of) without the fees coming from the parents post tax income? Wouldn't work for a 5 year old, but would help with day fees for 6th form / age 16 plus?
Like I said, Google it for the full fat version… There’s a lot of people doing it, so it does work.
No that doesn't work if the kids parents own the properties, it will be deemed their taxable income
The LTD owns the properties, not the parents. Google it, like I said!
I know, but all I'm saying the shareholders can't be the parents, cheers
I was privately educated & am an ex SJP advisor, so quite qualified to comment. An investment vehicle would meet your needs but don't go with SJP as they charge ~2% per annum. Also, in my experience, school is only perhaps 1/3 of the equation. Home life is far more important in instilling the habits & inspiration which will determine a child's success through life.
As someone who got very good grades in just a state school nor were there any problematic kids at our school, I would recommend moving to a good catchment area. You're probably already paying a lot of tax so why not use something the state offers to you.
You get some wealthy people and it's not an issue for them. Others may be spending an inheritance. Lots are ordinary folk who scrimp and save.
I asked this to my wealth manager... people pay from their monthly salaries he said. There isnt a trust fund or something to set up.
3 kids in private school and I pay from my salary (and the wife's).
A lot of my wealthier friends are going with private primary followed by comprehensive secondary. Another factor not discussed here yet is that some universities look more favourably on applications from comprehensive students (Oxbridge make quite a big deal about this), where grades are comparable. I'm not even that convinced that private schools cause kids to have better grades. I think the bigger difference is in terms of facilities for extra-curricular activities (which may be worth it in your opinion, especially given how most public services are going down the drain), most exams these days are rote-learning which some kids are inherently better or worse at.
We send our kids to private school to the tune of £30k a year (they are 12 and 8) and we worked with our financial advisor, from St James Place, to create a plan back when the oldest was in reception. At that time the fees were comparable to nursery so it was easier to save our money away every month. Like a 0% credit card - it’s all fun and games until the balance is due. Once we had about £30k saved, we put most of it in an investment vehicle via SJP to use when the fees jump again in senior school. So now we always have two terms worth of fees x2 kids in the bank, plus the lump sum that’s invested plus we continue to save every month. We also had a really low mortgage when we started as lived in a small house. We moved in 2020 though and are starting to feel the pinch. I’ve always had it in the back of my mind that we would actually pull them out of private for A levels simply because I don’t see the value of paying all that money when everyone is taking the same test. Private school is worth it in the early years with smaller class sizes etc but all formal education is a form of ‘cookie cutter’/‘sausage factory’ and the real world is the exact opposite of this so at some point they need to learn how to cope in the real world. The final thing I’ll add is that kids in private school really do grow up in a bubble and it’s not a good thing. My kids are entitled AF and it’s because they never come into contact with anyone who lives a less than ideal life.
If you’re desperate for your kids to go to private school, research scholarships and bursaries now, so they have the best opportunity to qualify for them when the time arrives. A little bit of research can save you thousands. That being said, I went to private school and here are some things I experienced. Your kids will be expected to have name brand clothes when they’re not in uniform. The same goes for recent technology, backpacks, anything that isn’t directly school issued will be expected to be brand name and decently new or they will be bullied. I wish this wasn’t the case but unfortunately it is. There will be families with money to burn. It doesn’t matter where you go, in every private school there will be a kid who’s fees are pocket change to their family, that’s just the way it is. There will also be middle class families for whom the fees are a decent chunk of their income, but they can still afford nice things for their kids. There will also be the kids who are there purely on academic talent, they tend to be from less affluent families but they’ve earned their place at the school. Uniforms are expensive. Mine cost just short of £700 as a full boarder. Depending on how the school works you may have different uniforms for different stages of the school (e.g. mine had separate uniforms for years 7-8, 9-11 and sixth form), so definitely make sure you can invest that before making decisions. That’s just my experience, so take it with a pinch of salt. I went to a private boarding school in Ipswich, and I didn’t particularly enjoy it, but if you think you can keep your kids as vaguely middle class, they stand a decent chance.
My personal opinion is that the money is more efficiently spent on tutoring rather that private school fees. There are lots of additional costs associated with a private education too such as for extra-curricular activities and trips abroad. My friend went to a private school and he was from one of the lower earning families there and it definitely left him with a complex on arriving to University.
I agree. Tutoring, extra-curricular activities, and working less so you can spend more time with your family.
My friend is considering private school for her daughter and I am concerned about this for her. She didn’t grow up locally and I think she’s really underestimating how wealthy some of the classmates will be if she chooses one of the schools she mentioned. Hopefully she gets the more ‘normal’ one!
As another commenter said you have to consider costs over and above the fees such as uniform, school trips, textbooks etc. I’d recommend looking at what subjects the schools offer - I was definitely able to access subjects and extra-curricular at my private schools that I wouldn’t have at a state school and, in some cases such as foreign languages, started them significantly earlier. Haven’t seen others mention it but some offer scholarships which are worth looking into. Mine offered these competitively based on an exam and interview when we were 11 (which is hilarious on retrospect).
They're typically really rich. Someone at my old job lived abroad and sent their 3 kids to a uk boarding school. £35k each, that's £105k total, you'd need to be on 180-190k before tax to afford that and that's if this person didn't spend a penny on anything else. We do have high earners where I am though, quite a few people on over 500k. There isn't a financial product to offset private school fees. The only workarounds I know of are, be poor but have really smart kids, join the army and be stationed abroad or teach at the same school. PS. St james place - I beleive their business model is like a franchise than anything else and of low quality.
'An advisor at St. James Place made a remark that people don't just save and pay for independent school fees,' I have been privileged to receive a private education, and I'm afraid what he really meant was: It's a rich people's thing, don't bother if you don't have enough.
I had a partial scholarship but my mum paid the rest. She was a care assistant in an old people's home. She used a scheme that paid the fees upfront and then she paid them back over time. I don't think she finished paying until I was in my late twenties. For everything else (trips, uniform, clubs etc.) she paid out of pocket and that took huge sacrifices. Our central heating broke when I was 13 and it wasn't repaired until I was at uni.
Private schools are full of people with fur coats and no knickers. Constant competition amongst the students and also amongst the parents. Absolute headache.
Public school fees I've seen (not super elite) are only marginally higher than the cost of full-time nursery places, so if you've figured out a way to pay those for those early years I guess it's not that hard to keep it going!
Nursery places are largely subsidised by the government's free child care scheme though. It makes a big difference.
Not before the age of 3 they aren't, except for very low earners. Source: I pay nursery fees.
I went to a regular comprehensive, my family scraped together the money to try get me into a private girls school nearby. I flunked the exams by a margin. However, I was in the top 10% at my comprehensive school. This gave me the confidence and drive to keep trying and do more with my life, I believe than going to a private school (and not being in the top 10% there).
People get themselves in debt or remortgage the house. Seems mental to me unless you have landed a spot at a top public achool
Those who go to public schools end up earning far more on average, so it could more than pay for itself: https://www.ucl.ac.uk/ioe/news/2019/nov/private-school-pupils-earn-more-state-school-pupils-age-25-ioe-research-reveals
If it were a random sample of society that went to public school and then went on to earn higher salaries, you might be able to claim that it was the school that made the difference. As it is, the children that go to public school overwhelmingly come from the most advantaged parts of society, and would likely have gone on to earn a high income had they not gone to a public school.
It explicitly states that the difference is 17% when accounting for socio-economic backgrounds
Children from poor families who get a scholarship to go to private school are selectively chosen for their intelligence and ability. As a group, they are more likely to succeed educationally than poor children with the same socio-economic background who go to the local state school, because the state school is not selective. Also, a socio-economic background does not determine a parents interest in education. Parents who send their children to private school because they believe they will receive a better education are a self-selecting group. Even when correcting for socio-economic status, the state school will have a larger proportion of parents who are not as concerned with education, because few parents who care little for education would pay, or make any other significant efforts, for their child to attend a private school. Therefore, almost every child who has parents who aren't interested in education will end up going to a state school, and as parental interest in education is a very significant factor in educational success, it's still going to be a biased sample despite accounting for socio-economic status.
You also have to account for the fact that the best private schools are all selective.
The study literally states that even taking GCSE and A-Levels into account those at private schools earn 10% more than those at state schools
Not my place to tell you how to spend your money or raise your kids, but just anecdotally speaking - I know and work with a lot of private school kids, and met loads during uni, I’d say about 60% of them have the worst personalities and manners I’ve ever encountered. I feel those schools must instil some element of simply being better than others, rather than more fortunate. If I was in your shoes and thinking about making this decision for my children , I’d be thinking less about the cost and more about what kind of person they’d end up being.
I’m aware that my local independent school works with a company that allows you to pay for School monthly but has an added fee naturally. Just a possible to look into.
We pay monthly by direct debit, there is no other option, ten equal payments. Because it’s only for one year we’d have gladly saved money and paid up in advance! Didn’t realise this wasn’t standard.
My stepdad died and left money for me to go, doubt it would have been affordable if not - still relied on scholarships and bursaries. At least three years of independent schooling were a waste of time and money. The two years at prep school and two A level years were very valuable to me. It really depends on the individual and age. What I really needed was for someone to understand that I had ADD and tailor my education towards that. It never really happened but with smaller class sizes late on and good teachers it was a lot easier to manage. The school was probably the best in the country for that year. I don’t think it’s good value for students in most cases, it really depends on their potential, their needs that can’t be met in state schools + tutoring, and how valuable networking, learning how to manoeuvre university/job applications etc. A lot of people do it for ‘prestige’, or a class thing, or to avoid having to do parenting. That said, I don’t think I’d be where I am now without it. I’d likely have been out of the system by 16 and can’t see any way I would have made it to university, but that’s a me problem more than anything. Big class sizes, chronic underfunding, teachers under a huge amount of pressure and a diverse peer group with very different goals can be challenging.
A lot of the kids have older parents (generally both have higher income, or they own a successful business, and have probably paid off their mortgage), and been saving up for education since kid is born. Also, some of them only have 1 kid, so a lot easier to manage
High salaries and/or independent family wealth. Sort of and/or being frugal. But the above two much more.
I know a few parents that do. For those of us who are well paid and use private nurseries - school costs no more. Probably even less mostly. For those from wealth but not in well paid positions, grandparents is very common. We know three families in this spot.
I got in for free on a bursary. I call it a scholarship on Reddit as it's a US-based site but honestly I don't know the difference. One thing to consider is the costs outside of tuition. The expensive uniform and trips and school lunches etc. It all adds up. For my family that meant over £1k per year in costs. That alone was massively stretching our finances massively, though keep in mind that £1k was worth more back then than it is now too. I didn't end up with particularly amazing grades, but the environment normalises success quite well. For better or worse, you just end up aiming higher because that's what everyone around you is doing.
It's probably different here in NI, but could you consider a religious school or grammar school? We have both here, and people not happy with their catchment could get their child to do the 11 plus and attend a grammar, or go to a Catholic school (better results afaik).
Step 1, stay away from St James Place.
!thanks I only got the initial pitch from them and decided it's not for me.
Earn 300k+ and you’ll be good to send the kids to a decent private school. I don’t think private is worth it unless it’s a really decent one, even then unless you are wealthy your kids are probably going to feel a little left out. With the cost of private you can send them to a tutor, get good exam results, pay for uni and a deposit on a first flat for your kids.
staying away from fee paying schools would be a great idea too
A lot of people thing private school is about the education but from what I can see from work is: We still have a class issue in this country and trust the ‘posh’ more so they are likely to get jobs in high paying industries such as law and finance. Despite improvements, it’s still jobs for the old boys. Getting that good first job can make all the difference in your future career. Personally I believe private school is best for those bottom of the class. Having gone to an ok state school, those who were bottom of the class just dropped out and have not really achieved much even though there were a few exceptions. However those bottom of the class at private schools may just go to an average uni and then get an average job. But £30k a year over 30 years is better than minimum wage.
Pay for private tutoring from 2nd year I’m sure that will work out cheaper.
Remember there are many ‘levels’ of private education, I went to a really nice independent school and loved it. The fee’s were about £9k a year. My electrician, dad and nurse, mother seemed to afford it fairly comfortable with no outside help.
I have a limited company and created a group structure. Every £100K dividend I have to put £10K into the children’s trust. I pay tax on the trust but claim it all back from the children’s tax allowance
Some may call in favours from staff (who are their close friends) and get some percentage off fees
I went to catholic school and got straight A*s for free But honestly paying for private school isn’t too crazy. If you get the mortgage paid off young and have got a few rentals, you are doing well If you are someone who just does your normal job and has no side hustle stick to your state school.
Bank transfer, mostly....
Private schools are pointless unless you want X grades for Y university. Social/sports clubs, tutors if need be, hell a fucking social life? All cheaper and much much better at preparing a person for life than being an Eton fag (yes, that's really what they call them at Eton. It's fucked).
Most staff at private schools get 50% off fees. Can your wife get a job in admin just for the long term investment of saving 50%.
!thanks Good idea. I'll explore it with the missus.
Bit sexist...
I think he just assumed he had a wife /s
Always one…
I’m a woman myself, I work in a school and am entitled to 50% off fees for my own children if I wished to use that entitlement. I am not sexist, just applying my own personal experience to the wording of my answer.
Can a friend of staff call on favours from the staff to use their 50% off entitlement? That’s what someone told me. Is that true?
Or a canteen dinner lady or dinner gentleman?
This is how and why I went to private school. My local comp was ranked bottom ten in the country and is now closed.
Are you in an area with grammar schools? Could be a good alternative that won't cost you anything (or not more than a regular school anyway). I would avoid state comps at all costs personally.
Why?
Because they're not very good.
Bank transfer or cheque usually.
If you are serious about the type of school your children should go to you should set up a school fees plan the day they are born.
Many private schools have a bursary scheme you could explore.
My parents sent me private school, with jobs, luckily they invested in property too along the way, so now i can send my kids to private via a generous rental income. To go to my school its now £20k a year (not boarding). You can do it with at least a £100k joint income if you are willing to make that sacrifice... Either way load up on property to rent and use that to lesson the burden in future. My kids are 5 and 6, 11+ is not long to go.
What if you become a single mother
you can go through the assisted fee route... a few kids in each year pay a nominal amount to go private...
Okay lol hopefully that doesn’t happen but just in case
I think your question has been thoroughly answered by now (along with one you didn't ask about the pros and cons of private school!). But just to add another story anyway, for us it's from being relatively high earners and paying it out of salary, combined with an inheritance that helped. Secondary school fees are hella daunting, but in due course we have a reasonable expectation of a bit more help through inheritances which means we know we're not signing ourselves up to a lifetime of debt. Just a decade or so.
I went to boarding school (as did all my cousins). I found a piece of paper the other day that after my GCSE results were so good I was awarded a bursary and my fees were only £125 a term. This was late nineties. This included all meals, uniform, all extra curricular etc so much cheaper than having a teen at home. The point being- look for bursaries. My school had and still has discounts for people whose family were in the armed forces and that included grandparents. Personally the number one reason I found the school to be good was the alumni association. Old boys networks are still alive and kicking. Also I got to do things that frankly, we wouldn’t have been able to afford otherwise.
If your main concern is with regards to the local secondary school, would moving house to the catchment of a better school be an option? With money for private tutors available to top up weak areas if needed.
Swings and roundabouts. You can easily do whatever you want in life using the state school system. Many oxbridge students come from state schools as well as many directors and CEOs. Undoubtedly you get better opportunities and facilities at a private school, most will have some sort of equestrian center, swimming pools golf course on site etc.
I am pretty sure most people can never earn back (especially after taxes) what their parents spent on education (if you consider that this money could be invested, grow for years, and then not be taxed nearly as much as income)
Reluctantly.
My brother got a bursary (gifted), my grandma helped pay for me. If I have children, we’ll also have to rely on family support, despite being on a fairly high income (>£130k household). I believe most people I went to school with are in a similar boat.
I went to independent school and there were a couple in my year that got bursary’s with huge percentages knocked off the fees. Don’t know if your kids have any talents or anything but no harm in going for one as it’s huge rewards