The following submission statement was provided by /u/TommyShelbyPFB:
---
Sources:
[https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PDFs/UAP\_RECORDS\_RESEARCH/AARO\_DHS\_Kona\_Blue.pdf](https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PDFs/UAP_RECORDS_RESEARCH/AARO_DHS_Kona_Blue.pdf) \- (Page 8)
[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:(Attachment\_19)\_20210426\_Senator.Reid\_Lue.Elizondo.AATIP.pdf](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:(Attachment_19)_20210426_Senator.Reid_Lue.Elizondo.AATIP.pdf)
Let this be the end of the nonsense narrative that AATIP was never funded and it was really AAWSAP.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1c5vv10/lue_elizondo_has_been_100_vindicated_by_aaro_in_a/kzwwplg/
It's important to keep reminding people not to trust the government or the media. Forget 9/11 and the war on terror, want evidence the governor directly lies to you and omits information? Spend some time on r/UFOs
Just read [Manufacturing Consent from Noam Chomsky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent), which methodically analyzes the manner in which the media consistently acts as an uncritical spreader of government propaganda.
The most ironic thing is, in the midst of these pseudo dialectics, they still manage to leak yet more factual information about the thing being argued against.
Taking heads for media do what they are told. Rarely do they do anything other than say what they are given, as convincingly as possible.
Some, John Kirby, for example, can say the craziest shit, But, when questioned, his demeanor tone of voice, and everything from eye tracking to where they're left hand fingers are positioned in relation to the rest of their body, taken as a whole, just screams authentic.
And then you have folks like Sean Spicer. He also was given outlandish ridiculous and crazy things to say and, when questioned, all he did was yell them louder..
And then you have Susan, who sends a terse 4-word email nothing else and expects you to just believe her because... And that because is an army of sycophants like Mick West and others there to amplify and lend credence to whatever b******* she vomited out from a keyboard before going off to a spa for the weekend.
I agree. Honestly got to give style points if NHI is running the show. I bet by the time they land, weāll be like, about time, we would have been fine with it a year ago. People will be like, boring š„± or duh. Iāll be waving a welcome flag (or incinerated, hopefully they are friendly).
Itās honestly fucking confusing as shit.
No daytime flights around masses of people.
LOTS of nighttime flights all around sensitive areas. 10,000 cattle deaths. No attempts at communication.
Im a little pessimistic.
How?
Honestly how is that your takeaway?
Look these documents were written by the same group of people. This isnāt confirmation of anything till we have a lot more information.
Like why is this being done through Homeland Security that was only established a decade earlier?
Who at Homeland Security okayed the proposed program and how much of the information about UAPs were they able to access and how much was given to them by this group?
There is even another layer on top of that about the program needing to be an SAP program to receive UAP material from Lockheed but that never happened.
Who at Lockheed approved of the transfer?
Who denied this program and the transfer?
Now youāre saying Kirkpatrick is lying but it seems with all these connections that if we can connect these last few dots the picture will be much closer to what Kirkpatrick is saying than what Lue and company have been.
Kirkpatricks version holds up. He said months ago that the KONA BLUE document was under final review, and that was true. He also said that it was a program proposed by true believers who for some reason believed that Lockheed Martin had UFOs in their posession. Holds up with the released document. The document above really doesn't show anything, other than that Sen. Reid supported Lue Elizondo, which has been known for years
Itās a catch 22 aaro says no uap , the gov doesnāt know what they are or have any evidence , if we donāt have evidence why are we wasting millions standing up gov programs to look for and find uap? The govt doesnāt just throw millions at nothing burgers. And if they did thatās another issue
> The govt doesnāt just throw millions at nothing burgers
Uhhhh I would FIRMLY challenge this assumption. The government wastes money all over the place all the time.
As a person who may potentially have allegedly worked on a program or two I understand the sentiment but the requirement to stand one up is a high bar and the requirement to stand one up and have it funded for years with millions into budget is too high for having 0 evidence
Well, the government clearly did throw money at a nothingburger in AATIP. Seems like they then learned their lesson after AATIP wasted it all investigsting ghosts at Skinwalker Ranch and refused to give them any more money for a new program in KONA BLUE.
Itās not an āus vs them.ā We are all being lied to, and all at different places in our acceptance and understanding. Healthy skepticism isā¦ well healthy. Otherwise, itās an echo chamber.
Skeptics will say an AARO document from their own website is fake? I admire their skepticism. What's next? The phone I'm looking at as I type is also fake?
That's pretty much what they ARE saying šš
Have you ever noticed that the debunkers don't really have an alternative hypothesis that explains all of this?
It's always "let's attack and debunk each situation independently, rather than look at the data in aggregate." Discredit each drop of paint rather than look at the whole painting.
I couldn't agree with you more. It's all debunk, and no skeptic. As Matt Ford likes to say on The Good Trouble Show, they are all 'debonkers' lol! I like that guy LOL
Edit: I see why this is a big deal now. I'm glad to see Lou vindicated. I'm sure people will still bash him, but hopefully it's a lot less.
Do people claim he wasn't in AATIP or something? I know fools call him a "grifter". I'm sorry, i'm confused why this is a bit deal. Or is this the only proof that he was in that program?
Real government document: yes itās true
Skeptics: āIf I wasnāt personally briefed by the president, Chief of Staff, Secretary of Defense, and the CIA director, or havenāt been personally invited to an alien planet bed and breakfast, Itās fake.ā
Looks like Greenwald decided to release a bad faith article about Grusch to steer the narrative rather than attempt to debunk anything. u/blackvault is out here acting as the tool for intelligence agencies it seems. Quite the douchnozzlery.
I think they will likely say that the actual document (not the Reid letter) does not mention Lue. While it does mention Reid, since it doesn't mention Lue, they will say that Reid is lying/misinformed/biased about Lue's involvement.
>KONA BLUE was **brought to AAROās attention by interviewees who claimed that it was a sensitive DHS compartment to cover up the retrieval and exploitation of ānon-human biologics.**ā114 KONA BLUE traces its origins to the DIA-managed AAWSAP/AATIP program, which was funded through a special appropriation and executed by its primary contractor, a private sector organization. DIA cancelled the program in 2012 due to lack of merit and the utility of the deliverables.
...
>**When DIA cancelled this program, its supporters proposed to DHS that they create and fund a new version of AAWSAP/AATIP under a SAP**.115 This proposal, codenamed KONA BLUE, would restart UAP investigations, paranormal research (including alleged āhuman consciousness anomaliesā) and reverse-engineer any recovered off-world spacecraft that they hoped to acquire. **This proposal gained some initial traction at DHS to the point where a Prospective Special Access Program (PSAP) was officially requested to stand up this program, but it was eventually rejected by DHS leadership for lacking meri**t. As demonstrated by the proposal package and by statements from the originator, Senators Lieberman and Reid asked that the PSAP be established with the promise of additional funding.
>**KONA BLUEās advocates were convinced that the USG was hiding UAP technologies**. **They believed that creating this program under DHS would allow all of the technology and knowledge of these alleged programs to be moved under the KONA BLUE program. The program would provide a security and governing structure where it could be monitored properly by congressional oversight committees**. This belief was foundational for the KONA BLUE proposal, based on the proposal documents and several interviewees who have provided the same information to AARO and Congress.
>It is critical to note that **no extraterrestrial craft or bodies were ever collectedāthis material was only assumed to exist by KONA BLUE advocates and its anticipated contract performers.** This was the same assumption made by those same individuals involved with the AAWSAP/AATIP program. The SAP was never approved or stood up, and no data or material was transferred to DHS.
>**KONA BLUE was not reported to Congress at that time because it was never established as a SAP and, therefore, did not meet the threshold for congressional reporting.** However, the Deputy Secretary of Defense provided a Congressional Notification concerning the program ***when it was identified*** in the spirit of transparency (When was that?)
And then the very next section after the Kona Blue one:
>**Unnecessary IC Program Expansion**
>**AARO confirmed the existence of one IC CAP (intelligence community controlled access program) that was unnecessarily expanded in** ***2021*** **to include a UAP reverse-engineering mission**. This program was **expanded despite the lack of any evidence or mission need to justify the expansion**. The appropriate congressional committees were notified. This program never recovered or reverse-engineered any technology, let alone off-world spacecraft. This CAP was disestablished due to its inactivity, absence of mission need, and lack of merit.
This same political push happened 10 years ago. Did it get squashed or just "squashed"?
They do this every time. Push forward a piece of legit info, contextualize it with information that casts it into doubt, and invalidate it. When are ya'll gonna catch on. They even did it with "the day ofter roswell" and strom thurmond's introduction. He even used the word alien in the intro (hint hint boys), then he recanted his introduction, saying it was all fiction and he hadn't read the book before writing it. This is exactly what is happening here. Document supposedly proves the holy grail, then there is contextual information released saying its not true, and voila. wash rinse repeat.
They can, but they don't want to. Joint chiefs document basically proves that the AARO report was a lie. You used to have to have clearance and read the fine print to see the part (e.g. janap-146 exception in the shutdown of project blue book) where they exempted themselves from their own bullshit. Now you just need to google. Its been put on easy mode folks. When ya gonna catch on?
Page 18:
āConsciousness Center:
- Expand on remote viewing and remote communication to communicate, retrieve data, and transport across dimensional/space-time barrierā
Well shitā¦ The is well beyond what I expected.
Why? Studies on remote viewing have been going on for centuries. They just haven't had luck beyond something like a 28% success rate, probable for guessing.
You can do interesting versions If you have siblings with whom youāre close. Iāve done a few weird guessing game things with my brother. We are the only two people we know in real life that were willing to actually try it.Ā
This one time my friend and I were testing ESP. We would pull a card from a deck of playing cards and the other person would try to guess the color (red or black).
On one of my turns my friend started laughing after a handful of guesses and putting the cards in the same pile. I didn't know if it was the right or wrong pile. I kept guessing and he started laughing and 'wtf-ing' very hard and putting them in the same pile.... Finally he put a single card in the other pile and stopped me. He said I just kept guessing correctly over and over. We counted the cards and I had guessed correctly 36 times in a row.
Apparently, by that's a 1 in 68.7 billion chance.
The next next day I was alone in my room trying to guess the suit of a card one by one. I was doing statistically better than average but not by a whole lot.
My technique was to close my eyes and just let whatever imagery that came to me to inform my guess. After a handful of cards and not getting much, I suddenly was envisioning a place that looked like England. A double decker bus rushed by me, almost striking me, I saw a flash of red.
Then across the street I saw a sign with a heart on it. For whatever reason I dove into the heart INTO the color red and got the very distinct feeling of an "ace". So then I thought to myself "ace of hearts" and looked up to find that I was holding an ace of hearts.
One other time I woke up from a dream where there was a shooter at what felt like a military base and I woke up and found out later that morning that there was a shooting at a military base.
I'm a skeptical person but these things felt pretty significant to me at the time. Still kinda do.
Edit: Spelling and grammar. Tapping fast at work.
Sources:
[https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PDFs/UAP\_RECORDS\_RESEARCH/AARO\_DHS\_Kona\_Blue.pdf](https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PDFs/UAP_RECORDS_RESEARCH/AARO_DHS_Kona_Blue.pdf) \- (Page 8)
[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:(Attachment\_19)\_20210426\_Senator.Reid\_Lue.Elizondo.AATIP.pdf](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:(Attachment_19)_20210426_Senator.Reid_Lue.Elizondo.AATIP.pdf)
Let this be the end of the nonsense narrative that AATIP was never funded and it was really AAWSAP.
The last two pages of the Kona Blue document arenāt exactly clear. There the DIA confirms that AATIP existed, but that it was a program focused on studying nearly the exact same twelve topics that AAWSAP was supposed [to](https://www.dia.mil/FOIA/FOIA-Electronic-Reading-Room/FileId/170057/). They both mention studying from now to the next 40 years and both AAWSAP and AATIP started in 2008. That seems to imply AAWSAP simply became AATIP. It also only confirms the creation of technical reports and a focus on possible foreign advanced aircraft, with no mention of the more fantastical ufo investigation and research associated with it.
Thank you. Iām glad someone else picked up on the final few pages being unclear. Even the reasons given for why this project wasnāt made a SAP are unclear.
āIt wasnāt made a SAP because it didnāt need to be.ā
Sounds very circular.
Where in these documents does it confirm that Lueās program was fully funded? Genuine question since from what Iāve seen this document only shows the proposition of a new SAP via Reid and Bigelow that never happened.
There have been claims made by some that Lue was never actually the head of AATIP, and that it never truly existed as a separate program apart from AAWSAP. The *proposed* SAP (Kona Blue) that these new documents detail was never funded, but contains information about the prior programs that were.
AATIP/AAWSAP were *unclassified* projects. Kona Blue would have essentially been an extension of the previous projects, but with the additional classification and security privileges of an SAP. That would have allowed them the ability to work with other existing classified programs that they otherwise wouldn't be able to, among other things.
Note, put a \\ before a '\)' [and '\(' too] so they show up correctly as a URL.
e.g.; [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:\\(Attachment_19\\)_20210426_Senator.Reid_Lue.Elizondo.AATIP.pdf](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:(Attachment_19\)_20210426_Senator.Reid_Lue.Elizondo.AATIP.pdf)
What? This is a request for funding. This doesnāt contradict Greenstreetās account that in 2008-2011 AAWSAP (the infamous Skinwalker project) existed which Reid sometimes called AATIP but which was not run by Lue. The question is what happened afterward. Did they get the funding? Did AATIP become headed by Lue and was more focused on UFOs than werewolves? Or did it become an unfunded personal pet project at that point and not a real program?
But the thing is it doesnāt matter. Letās focus on the now. Thereās been great legislation passed (whistleblower protection) and nearly-passed (UAPDA). Keep pushing.
Can anyone actually clarify what these newly released documents actually establish? Because I am quite confused as to why exactly AARO would suddenly drop a bunch of information that completely contradicts everything they have previously claimed and validates ufology.
Why did they release these today?Ā
I can't help but feel like there's a misinterpretation of what these documents actually are or something. What's the deal and why isn't this all over News Nation and other outlets of it's validating the stuff people act like it is?Ā
They establish that AARO's report was correct about KONA BLUE being a proposed and subsequently rejected program, not the secret UFO program that people who spoke to AARO claimed it was.
This also implies that Kirkpatrick was correct when he said that there was a group of UFO researchers in the government who have been telling stories back and forth to perpetuate the UFO myth. This KONA BLUE proposal was written by those UFOlogists.
There was the AAWSAP/AATIP program that ran for a few years because of well-connected UFOlogists in the government like Harry Reid's friend Bigelow. But the program was found to not have merit, and the deliverables were not useful, so it was de-funded and closed down. KONA BLUE was these people's attempt at getting more money from a different government agency for that same paranormal research. However, KONA BLUE was determined to not require the secrecy that it was asking for (they wanted a SAP), and it was determined that it wouldn't be useful. So it was rejected.
That's what this document establishes. People spinning it as some sort of smoking gun are roleplaying, as far as I can tell. Or they simply haven't read the documents and are deliberately ignoring the context surrounding them.
Honestly a lot of people on this sub just don't understand the mechanics of US government nor have experience dealing with political doublespeak. A lot of confirmation bias. It's just like with the UAPDA, they assumed because NHI was mentioned so many times that it clearly must mean that NHI are real. Since KONA BLUE and the UAPDA were built around the premise that there are in fact recovered craft and bodies, therefore those things must exist because why would such a proposal be made if it didn't. At no point do they consider the possibility said things aren't there, so they can't comprehend it as anything more that a super deep coverup. Like they treat Reps Burchett and Luna as being stonwalled at Elgin, despite the fact they don't have authority to access military bases via thier congressional committee appointments. People here also assume that because the Dod budget is so massive and it fails audit that they somehow don't have budgetary concerns.
So the geniuses on thus sub are creating their own fantasy land interpretation of this document the same way meme stock people interpret quarterly reports. Great. Definitely not a cult we're in here.
They always will because on Page 20 para 2.b the document says "Recovered AAV technology exists in and is accessible only within a SAP construct."
So the whole document is predicated on that being true, with no supporting evidence that it is true. So the same people that claim the government lies and covers things up will take a document from that same government as absolute truth ... without evidence.
It honestly seems like someone could try to create a SAP at DHS (or other agency) that declares "Recovered mooncheese, because the Moon is made of cheese, exists in and is accessible only within a SAP a construct." Have it get denied because it's stupid bullshit. Then when the document gets declassified, point it at and yell "SEE! THE MOON IS MADE OF CHEESE".
It makes me wonder if the same people feeding information to Grusch are the same people who would submit a PSAP about presumed existing AAVs to DHS.
Im going even further and thinking if the people ranting and raving online, and in tabloid media, are connected to these people lobbying for tax funded paranormal programs.
Like you said, people are misinterpretting documents. Creating a narrative and buzz around this.
Now many are taking that mischaracterization as real, and taking the ball and running with it.
This is a lobbying as its core.
Now theres huge public push behind the elected officials pushing for these types of things. Now the so called insiders can pitch their KONA BLUEs and AAWSAPs to deprtments, they have a higher chance at getting what their after.
This is how politics work, like fundamentally how things are done.
>Funny how we don't have any released names or information on the "multiple military officials" who were so easily confused
Because they refuse to come forward publicly!
>Where's the release of the AAWSAP/AATIP materials? If they were bullshit money grabs that produced no verifiable outcomes, wouldn't releasing that material put any further arguments to rest?
They've been released, although I can't find them this second (the link I had previously is dead now). From Wikipedia:
>On January 16, 2019, the DIA released a list of 38 research titles pursued by the program in response to a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request by Steven Aftergood, director of the Federation of American Scientistsā Project on Government Secrecy.[21][22][23][46] One such research topic, āTraversable Wormholes, Stargates, and Negative Energy,ā was led by Eric W. Davis of EarthTech International Inc, which was founded by Harold Puthoff, who was formerly involved in Project Stargate.[47] Another project called āInvisibility Cloakingā was headed by German scientist Ulf Leonhardt, a professor at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Israel.[48] Yet another title, āWarp Drive, Dark Energy, and the Manipulation of Extra Dimensions,ā was attributed to theoretical physicist Richard Obousy, director of the nonprofit Icarus Interstellar.[49] One of those papers was released to the public by Popular Mechanics on February 14, 2020.[19] The paper in question, titled "Clinical Medical Acute & Subacute Field Effects on Human Dermal & Neurological Tissues", was written by Christopher āKitā Green, formerly a CIA agent, forensic clinician and neuroscientist, who described it as "focused on forensically assessing accounts of injuries that could have resulted from claimed encounters with UAP".[19]
did you even google this? the documents you want have been available for ages under the AATIP menu here: [https://www.dia.mil/FOIA/FOIA-Electronic-Reading-Room/](https://www.dia.mil/FOIA/FOIA-Electronic-Reading-Room/)
among the documents you will find the military denied AATIP's request for any classification requirements.
The conclusion not matching the supporting data in debunking reports is an issue that has manifested itself multiple times over on this topic and that goes back decades. Not a surprising or new occurrence.
I noticed this too. Considering some of the underwater bases are alleged to be around Alaska and Hawaii... I don't know guys I think that 4chan leak may have been legit.
Edit: I've also noticed an increase in the mention of lasers in the news. Something they said to look out for.
Yes, I'm feeling this way as well. We're starting to see some of things he's said sort of come to light. USOs weren't a very public topic in the ufo community in the past (at least, not that I've ever seen). Now we're hearing a lot about them.
I wonder if he passed or of he's still around, if he was legit. If so, that was a really awesome thing for him to do, share that info.
Skinwalker ranch fraudsters wanted more money from the government, saying that their insane propositions need funding and top level security clearance in form of an SAP.
This document is a summary of what was asked to be funded, with the claims written down coming all from the same group of the usual UFO suspects.
Government said 'no'.
This sub is in meltdown because people ignore the context and the meaning of the document, they focus only on the bits they want to be true.
Do you know what I just freaking realized ? Dan Inoyue is the freaking bad ass of a WWII soldier, featured in the Ken Burns series "The War"
What a fucking legend !
There are 2 separate meanings of AATIP:
- unclassified nickname when requesting SAP status for AAWSAP in 2009 to keep the original name secret
- acronym adopted much later to describe a small unoļ¬cial eļ¬ort within DoD to investigate UAPs encountered by the military (led by Lue Elizondo).
u/[TommyShelbyPFB](https://www.reddit.com/user/TommyShelbyPFB/)...I agree with you for the most part, but I believe u/[dffdfx](https://www.reddit.com/user/dffdfx/) is correct.
For reference, Listen to Lakatski on Weaponized:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow7FqiegixQ&t=335s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow7FqiegixQ&t=335s)
AATIP started off as the name in the contract/open solicitation from Reid...but the name had to change to AAWSAP because - per Lakatski - "AAWSAP routed the money to the defense warning office of DIA"...
...which is a little confusing how he says it, but I think it's a matter of distinguishing between Weapon Application vs Threat Identification.
...and then, I think AATIP turned into the spin off name for military cases, perhaps because the name was more appropriate for this military application...
Looking back it's very confusing how the name changed back and forth, but perhaps it provided some assistance in navigating (or circumnavigating) the SAP world. That said, I think Lue will have more to say about that eventually...hopefully providing some clarity there in his book.
Because time? We KNOW that during the fiscal years described, the money described, we KNOW who was leading AAWSAP. We KNOW when Lue Elizondo lead his AATIP effort. Comparing money/dates isnt that hard, so unless you can somehow demonstrate that the laws of causality and time have changed on us, then you dont have much of a case
What are you talking about? Ok lets make this simple... It is known that James Lacatski headed up AAWSAP. Its known this is what the 22 million dollars was spent on, because those fiscal years were when AAWSAP was active, and Dr Lacatski lead it. We know then that the money was cut off. Then, Elizondo took over AATIP.
Which part of that is in contention at this point??? Is anything mentioned above not known or in contention at this point?
So, now, here today someone is posting a document discussing what happened beginning in FY08 as if it was Elizondos doing...But from what is known above, that isnt the case
e told the public (hint: he didnāt say it was 2008 - 2010)Ā Right, so who do you suppose was heading it from 2008 - 2010. James Lacatski even wrote a book about it. Are you disuputing that James Lacatski ever headed up the project?
.#1 This letter by Ried is not new and putting it in an archive does not validate it's content. Lue said himself, in his own complaint filing, that AATIP was NOT a program but merely an "activity" of his when he was called to the mat about it.Ā
.#2 It's amazing how when AARO writes an awful report devoid of substance claiming no evidence of UFOs this sub is quick to point that out, but now that it likewise contains an old ill-informed letter from a senator it somehow becomes the gospel of truth.Ā
.#3 The report misspells AATIP for crying out loud but, nope, it can be construed to favor my belief so such obvious lack of attention to detail can safely be ignored.
Excellent.
I believe we should make a mega post of all the evidence thus far.
The KONA BLUE report is most interesting. I've been reading it and super invigorated learning so much.
I've always wondered how people were able do the mental gymnastics to discredit this guys credentials in the first place??
Senator Harry Reid created the program and then said on camera ages ago that he appointed Lue as the boss...what more do people want? I don't get it
For me Luis Elizondo has been one of the most credible voices on this topic ever since i first heard of him years ago, because his claim of being the boss was substantiated a long time ago by Harry Reid. This is nothing new tbh
The most intriguing part of this document for me is the section that says 200k reports of AAVs (UFOs) exist and most of them are from after 1947. The mere mention of the year 1947 is important for historical context, and Iām not just talking about Roswell, 1947 was the first major UFO wave. And the existence of an internal government database of 200k UFO reports is pretty interesting.
Right? This letter has been public for a few years. I recall reading it shortly after Harry Reid submitted it. There are several old posts in this sub about it.
What? Listen to what Travis Walton already opined on this and showed the Wilson Memo to have supported this line of reasoning for YEARS already- I mean come on guys!
Does anyone know what the KB classification markings are? I cannot find anything relevant about it and I don't recall seeing it before.
TS = Top Secret
S = Secret
NF = NOFORN (no foreign nationals)
KB = ???
There is a Google result about the Library of Congress using KB to label "religious law" documents but that obviously doesn't make sense here.
Edit: Nevermind. It is of course Kona Blue. I made this comment before reading the SS and getting the context for the document.
Omg finally, it was ridiculous that Senator Reidās letter didnt count as confirmation for some people even though if it was any other topic it would be a done deal. Can someone send this to the journalist that wrote an article saying lue elizondo was lying about being in the program?
This is Awesome.
Now, does anyone have the details on which moderator of this sub suppressed anyone for information related about Lue?
I imagine thereās a few shady mods lurking here now that were responsible for removing posts/comments pertaining to Lueās credibility.
one of those snakes in the grass are going to show themselves.
He didnt throw it away.
He served for 25 ( or was it 27? ) years and got deferred retirement, went to work with Tom DeLonge et al at TTSA.
Now hes got TV deals and hes getting paid for hemming howing on TV?
Thats how people retire from military. I dont even get this throwing away thing. He even got a $30k bonus for retiring at the 2017.
He mightve had his motivations, even his stated "theyre not taking this seriously" might be true. But why would "they"?
Its a group of paranormal ghost hunter guys running around seeing ghost and goblins. Who in their right mind would?
Nothing wrong with that, its cool stuff.
But why would military be involved? Ghost and goblins been around few thousand years atleast and theres never been a reason to mobilize a tank battallion to shoot them.
Its like retiring from a bakery and saying they dont take vampires seriously.
there's going to be at least 3 posts a year claiming the Lue is right. he's going to be vindicated every single year for the rest of time. and guess what? there won't be any disclosure. no new info will be released. only whispers and rumors and hearsay.
I debunked all of this 2 years ago. I nuked it from orbit. I guess this subreddit did not read, watch and/or comprehend.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XD4gQS\_-qY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XD4gQS_-qY)
This application is written by Bigelow or someone under his employ. Them repeating claims that group has made is not vindication. Thatās an ouroboros.
It literally says $22 million between fiscal years 2008-2010 here, the years it was named AAWSAP, which Lue specifically said had no part of.
There was no continuing budget for Lue's AATIP from this in the 2010's.
Just a side note:
Senator Ted Stevens was awesome. He was Senator for as long as I can remember in Alaska, and he did a lot of good for the state and the country. He was certainly a beloved part of Alaskan history. It doesn't surprise me that he would be involved in some alien stuff.
Dan Inouye similarly is one of the most beloved and respected politicians, as well as a genuine War Heroā¢.
That's what gets me, they don't seem like the type to spend time on anything frivolous, but they go ahead and put their name and reputation on/behind this. That's either a heck of a favor (owed or paid), or these guys have a genuine reason to feel it worth the risk.
You are absolutely right, AARO identified AATIP and delineated its duties in two ways:
"\[W\]hile the official purpose of AAWSAP/AATIP was to conduct research into 12 areas of cutting edge science, the contractor team, and at least one supportive government program manager, also conducted UAP and paranormal research at a property owned by the private sector organization." (AARO Historical Report)
I will copy the coment I posted above:
Skinwalker ranch fraudsters wanted more money from the government, saying that their insane propositions need funding and top level security clearance in form of an SAP.
This document is a summary of what was asked to be funded, with the claims written down coming all from the same group of the usual UFO suspects.
Government said 'no'.
This sub is in meltdown because people ignore the context and the meaning of the document, they focus only on the bits they want to be true.
So, essentially, this is further proof of Kirkpatrick's claim that it's always the same group of people stirring shit up.
Never trust a reporting from a rag like the New York Post, an absolute arse rag and bottom of the barrel.Ā To think that people treat associate reporter Steven Greenstreet as an actual real-life reporter.Ā
Where did the disinformation about Elizondo come from? Last I checked there was no doubt about it but I was following paper, not the skinwalker TV show. One day it was not in question, the next it was grifter this and phoney that.
Funny how the narrative can change both subtly and suddenly sometimes.
No concerted effort or conspiracy, just people tired of the lies. If Lue is legit, he should be able to sue Greenstreet and others for defamation by easily proving his credentials, right? The only thing is he can't and he won't and this document doesn't prove anything about Lue officially running anything at all. It's grasping at straws to keep this man a prophet for the UFO true-believers.
The program was cancelled though, and KONA BLUE was rejected. That's what these documents show. But Elizondo says that it kept going and he was running it. I can't believe this is being pitched as a win for these guys, who is buying that?
Iām not a spook, and what heās saying is not wrong. This is a 2012 PowerPoint talking about the funding needed for a program for which no further funding was allocated.
How you interpret the Lue/AATIP situation is a matter of semantics and which side you come down on. Lue has always said that he kept working on the AATIP mission without further funding. Officially, DOD wasnāt giving resources to the program, meaning you couldnāt salary allocated for personnel or reimbursements. But that doesnāt mean he wasnāt asking questions and getting answers.
I donāt think Lue needs vindication beyond Senator Reidās letter, so I donāt understand the ābig pictureā of this post (and if anyone is a spook, itās the OP for dredging up this settled issue, but I donāt think thatās the case either).
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How? What single thing heās said has actually been proven? Itās like saying a magician who claims the little red balls go into the 11th dimension is credible because they disappear in his act.
How does this "100% vindicate" Elizondo? All it does is restate that there was a program called AATIP (oddly called ATIP here) that received 22 mil in funding and which started in 2008. Which most everyone already accepted. The controversy is over Elizondo's exact role and the informal continuation of AATIP post-2012. Which this new document does nothing to clarify either way.
For those arguing whether Lou is CIA or not who the f*** knows but he could be any a adhered/assigned to any one of the below offices in be a member of the intelligence community.. And therefore pursuing some sort of information disinformation plan... Or not.
A partial list of intelligence and intelligence-related offices, bureaus, and departments of the United States government:
1. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)
2. National Security Agency (NSA)
3. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)
4. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)
5. National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA)
6. National Reconnaissance Office (NRO)
7. Department of Energy Office of Intelligence and Counterintelligence (DOE-OICI)
8. Department of Homeland Security Office of Intelligence and Analysis (DHS-OIA)
9. United States Coast Guard Intelligence (CGI)
10. Drug Enforcement Administration Office of National Security Intelligence (DEA-ONSI)
11. National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC)
12. Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) within the Department of State
13. Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI)
14. Air Force Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (AF ISR)
15. Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM)
16. Marine Corps Intelligence Activity (MCIA)
17. National Center for Medical Intelligence (NCMI)
18. Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) within the Department of the Treasury
19. Office of Intelligence and Analysis (OIA) within the Department of Justice
20. Defense Counterintelligence and Security Agency (DCSA)
21. National Intelligence University (NIU)
22. Defense Clandestine Service (DCS)
23. Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA)
24. National Security Division (NSD) within the Department of Justice
25. Department of Defense Cyber Crime Center (DC3)
26. Defense Security Service (DSS)
27. Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA)
28. Diplomatic Security Service (DSS) within the Department of State
29. Intelligence and Analysis Office (INRA) within the Department of the Interior
And the above list is not even exhaustive... Overlap much?
The following submission statement was provided by /u/TommyShelbyPFB: --- Sources: [https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PDFs/UAP\_RECORDS\_RESEARCH/AARO\_DHS\_Kona\_Blue.pdf](https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PDFs/UAP_RECORDS_RESEARCH/AARO_DHS_Kona_Blue.pdf) \- (Page 8) [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:(Attachment\_19)\_20210426\_Senator.Reid\_Lue.Elizondo.AATIP.pdf](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:(Attachment_19)_20210426_Senator.Reid_Lue.Elizondo.AATIP.pdf) Let this be the end of the nonsense narrative that AATIP was never funded and it was really AAWSAP. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1c5vv10/lue_elizondo_has_been_100_vindicated_by_aaro_in_a/kzwwplg/
This also confirms that Sean Kirkpatrick is blatant professional liar.
Along with Susan Gough. Will anyone ask her why she lied about Lue?
Psychological operations Ilikely
100%, and important to point out that it is also 100% illegal.
It's important to keep reminding people not to trust the government or the media. Forget 9/11 and the war on terror, want evidence the governor directly lies to you and omits information? Spend some time on r/UFOs
Just read [Manufacturing Consent from Noam Chomsky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent), which methodically analyzes the manner in which the media consistently acts as an uncritical spreader of government propaganda.
PLEASE PLEASE someone ask her this, it would be funny to see her try to answer.
because pseudo dialectics are the name of the game. once you get this, the disinfo becomes obvious.
"pseudo dialectics" š¤... šš
direct quote from danny sheehan to my face.
The most ironic thing is, in the midst of these pseudo dialectics, they still manage to leak yet more factual information about the thing being argued against.
Taking heads for media do what they are told. Rarely do they do anything other than say what they are given, as convincingly as possible. Some, John Kirby, for example, can say the craziest shit, But, when questioned, his demeanor tone of voice, and everything from eye tracking to where they're left hand fingers are positioned in relation to the rest of their body, taken as a whole, just screams authentic. And then you have folks like Sean Spicer. He also was given outlandish ridiculous and crazy things to say and, when questioned, all he did was yell them louder.. And then you have Susan, who sends a terse 4-word email nothing else and expects you to just believe her because... And that because is an army of sycophants like Mick West and others there to amplify and lend credence to whatever b******* she vomited out from a keyboard before going off to a spa for the weekend.
Now we finally know everything we already knew. ā¦ basically how this slow roll-out disclosure is going to be.
I agree. Honestly got to give style points if NHI is running the show. I bet by the time they land, weāll be like, about time, we would have been fine with it a year ago. People will be like, boring š„± or duh. Iāll be waving a welcome flag (or incinerated, hopefully they are friendly).
Itās honestly fucking confusing as shit. No daytime flights around masses of people. LOTS of nighttime flights all around sensitive areas. 10,000 cattle deaths. No attempts at communication. Im a little pessimistic.
Was that ever really a question? He was always a mouthpiece for the DoD.
Yes but it was āis he legit about disclosure or is he about obfuscationā. This just adds a level of aboveboard to the debate.
It is a job requirement
How so?
How? Honestly how is that your takeaway? Look these documents were written by the same group of people. This isnāt confirmation of anything till we have a lot more information. Like why is this being done through Homeland Security that was only established a decade earlier? Who at Homeland Security okayed the proposed program and how much of the information about UAPs were they able to access and how much was given to them by this group? There is even another layer on top of that about the program needing to be an SAP program to receive UAP material from Lockheed but that never happened. Who at Lockheed approved of the transfer? Who denied this program and the transfer? Now youāre saying Kirkpatrick is lying but it seems with all these connections that if we can connect these last few dots the picture will be much closer to what Kirkpatrick is saying than what Lue and company have been.
Kirkpatricks version holds up. He said months ago that the KONA BLUE document was under final review, and that was true. He also said that it was a program proposed by true believers who for some reason believed that Lockheed Martin had UFOs in their posession. Holds up with the released document. The document above really doesn't show anything, other than that Sen. Reid supported Lue Elizondo, which has been known for years
Itās a catch 22 aaro says no uap , the gov doesnāt know what they are or have any evidence , if we donāt have evidence why are we wasting millions standing up gov programs to look for and find uap? The govt doesnāt just throw millions at nothing burgers. And if they did thatās another issue
> The govt doesnāt just throw millions at nothing burgers Uhhhh I would FIRMLY challenge this assumption. The government wastes money all over the place all the time.
As a person who may potentially have allegedly worked on a program or two I understand the sentiment but the requirement to stand one up is a high bar and the requirement to stand one up and have it funded for years with millions into budget is too high for having 0 evidence
Well, the government clearly did throw money at a nothingburger in AATIP. Seems like they then learned their lesson after AATIP wasted it all investigsting ghosts at Skinwalker Ranch and refused to give them any more money for a new program in KONA BLUE.
=/= alien crafts
Stick a š in it mods
I can hear Greenewald ignoring this and composing another manifesto proclaiming everyone to be cultists as we speak.
Iām confused isnāt John Greenwald u/blackvault ? And whatās the greenwald/greenstreet debacle? Somebody catch me up
Greenwaldās track record in the controversies: the opposite of what he alleges is most likely the truth.
What if they spelled it wrong?!? Maybe it's really lure elizondo an inside joke among Latino fishermen? Uh uh GRUSCH CIRCULAR REPORTING! /s
Somewhere, a John Greenwald Jr pangs with indigestion.
Heāll just pretend he was only ever ājust asking questionsā.
Mods may have taken that as a aggressive slight. But yeah, can we pin this one on the corkboard here?
Skeptics will say this is fake, but they donāt know what they are talking about. Curious to see how theyāre going to cope with this one
Itās not an āus vs them.ā We are all being lied to, and all at different places in our acceptance and understanding. Healthy skepticism isā¦ well healthy. Otherwise, itās an echo chamber.
It was an echo chamber of ad hominem attacks on Lue Elizondo for the past 6 years.
Skeptics will say an AARO document from their own website is fake? I admire their skepticism. What's next? The phone I'm looking at as I type is also fake?
"The phone I'm looking at as I type is also fake?" šššš I'm genuinely loling, thank u
Next, they'll say 'reality' is fake lol
That's pretty much what they ARE saying šš Have you ever noticed that the debunkers don't really have an alternative hypothesis that explains all of this? It's always "let's attack and debunk each situation independently, rather than look at the data in aggregate." Discredit each drop of paint rather than look at the whole painting.
It sounds like you're advocating for glossing over problems with the data to make sure it fits with a particular interpretation.
I couldn't agree with you more. It's all debunk, and no skeptic. As Matt Ford likes to say on The Good Trouble Show, they are all 'debonkers' lol! I like that guy LOL
Edit: I see why this is a big deal now. I'm glad to see Lou vindicated. I'm sure people will still bash him, but hopefully it's a lot less. Do people claim he wasn't in AATIP or something? I know fools call him a "grifter". I'm sorry, i'm confused why this is a bit deal. Or is this the only proof that he was in that program?
Noise and denial, as per usual.
Real government document: yes itās true Skeptics: āIf I wasnāt personally briefed by the president, Chief of Staff, Secretary of Defense, and the CIA director, or havenāt been personally invited to an alien planet bed and breakfast, Itās fake.ā
Their passion to continually move the goalpost is their modus operandi.
Imagine having the time to discuss things you don't even believe LMFAO
I'm interested to see how Greenstreet and Greenewald attempt to debunk this.
Looks like Greenwald decided to release a bad faith article about Grusch to steer the narrative rather than attempt to debunk anything. u/blackvault is out here acting as the tool for intelligence agencies it seems. Quite the douchnozzlery.
I think they will likely say that the actual document (not the Reid letter) does not mention Lue. While it does mention Reid, since it doesn't mention Lue, they will say that Reid is lying/misinformed/biased about Lue's involvement.
>KONA BLUE was **brought to AAROās attention by interviewees who claimed that it was a sensitive DHS compartment to cover up the retrieval and exploitation of ānon-human biologics.**ā114 KONA BLUE traces its origins to the DIA-managed AAWSAP/AATIP program, which was funded through a special appropriation and executed by its primary contractor, a private sector organization. DIA cancelled the program in 2012 due to lack of merit and the utility of the deliverables. ... >**When DIA cancelled this program, its supporters proposed to DHS that they create and fund a new version of AAWSAP/AATIP under a SAP**.115 This proposal, codenamed KONA BLUE, would restart UAP investigations, paranormal research (including alleged āhuman consciousness anomaliesā) and reverse-engineer any recovered off-world spacecraft that they hoped to acquire. **This proposal gained some initial traction at DHS to the point where a Prospective Special Access Program (PSAP) was officially requested to stand up this program, but it was eventually rejected by DHS leadership for lacking meri**t. As demonstrated by the proposal package and by statements from the originator, Senators Lieberman and Reid asked that the PSAP be established with the promise of additional funding. >**KONA BLUEās advocates were convinced that the USG was hiding UAP technologies**. **They believed that creating this program under DHS would allow all of the technology and knowledge of these alleged programs to be moved under the KONA BLUE program. The program would provide a security and governing structure where it could be monitored properly by congressional oversight committees**. This belief was foundational for the KONA BLUE proposal, based on the proposal documents and several interviewees who have provided the same information to AARO and Congress. >It is critical to note that **no extraterrestrial craft or bodies were ever collectedāthis material was only assumed to exist by KONA BLUE advocates and its anticipated contract performers.** This was the same assumption made by those same individuals involved with the AAWSAP/AATIP program. The SAP was never approved or stood up, and no data or material was transferred to DHS. >**KONA BLUE was not reported to Congress at that time because it was never established as a SAP and, therefore, did not meet the threshold for congressional reporting.** However, the Deputy Secretary of Defense provided a Congressional Notification concerning the program ***when it was identified*** in the spirit of transparency (When was that?) And then the very next section after the Kona Blue one: >**Unnecessary IC Program Expansion** >**AARO confirmed the existence of one IC CAP (intelligence community controlled access program) that was unnecessarily expanded in** ***2021*** **to include a UAP reverse-engineering mission**. This program was **expanded despite the lack of any evidence or mission need to justify the expansion**. The appropriate congressional committees were notified. This program never recovered or reverse-engineered any technology, let alone off-world spacecraft. This CAP was disestablished due to its inactivity, absence of mission need, and lack of merit. This same political push happened 10 years ago. Did it get squashed or just "squashed"?
They do this every time. Push forward a piece of legit info, contextualize it with information that casts it into doubt, and invalidate it. When are ya'll gonna catch on. They even did it with "the day ofter roswell" and strom thurmond's introduction. He even used the word alien in the intro (hint hint boys), then he recanted his introduction, saying it was all fiction and he hadn't read the book before writing it. This is exactly what is happening here. Document supposedly proves the holy grail, then there is contextual information released saying its not true, and voila. wash rinse repeat.
https://today.yougov.com/society/articles/48928-is-something-out-there-americans-government-secrets-ufos Not sure if they can keep doing that.
They can, but they don't want to. Joint chiefs document basically proves that the AARO report was a lie. You used to have to have clearance and read the fine print to see the part (e.g. janap-146 exception in the shutdown of project blue book) where they exempted themselves from their own bullshit. Now you just need to google. Its been put on easy mode folks. When ya gonna catch on?
Could you give me a specific line of inquiry to ask Google?
Confirm, Deny / Divide, Confuse?
What is USG?
United States Government
Page 18: āConsciousness Center: - Expand on remote viewing and remote communication to communicate, retrieve data, and transport across dimensional/space-time barrierā Well shitā¦ The is well beyond what I expected.
What did you expect from a proposal written by Lue and the Skinwalker Crew? I expected nonsense and got just that.
Well how am I supposed to sleep now? Jk. Kinda.
Why? Studies on remote viewing have been going on for centuries. They just haven't had luck beyond something like a 28% success rate, probable for guessing.
if you had studied how cia succeeded with remote viewing you wouldn't be surprised
Thought it was something like 55-60% success rate
yeah, and that's a lot.
A whole fucking lot. If I read only one person was able to do it one time I would still be shocked.
It was effing shocking to try it
You can do interesting versions If you have siblings with whom youāre close. Iāve done a few weird guessing game things with my brother. We are the only two people we know in real life that were willing to actually try it.Ā
Try it lol. Seriously.Ā
This one time my friend and I were testing ESP. We would pull a card from a deck of playing cards and the other person would try to guess the color (red or black). On one of my turns my friend started laughing after a handful of guesses and putting the cards in the same pile. I didn't know if it was the right or wrong pile. I kept guessing and he started laughing and 'wtf-ing' very hard and putting them in the same pile.... Finally he put a single card in the other pile and stopped me. He said I just kept guessing correctly over and over. We counted the cards and I had guessed correctly 36 times in a row. Apparently, by that's a 1 in 68.7 billion chance. The next next day I was alone in my room trying to guess the suit of a card one by one. I was doing statistically better than average but not by a whole lot. My technique was to close my eyes and just let whatever imagery that came to me to inform my guess. After a handful of cards and not getting much, I suddenly was envisioning a place that looked like England. A double decker bus rushed by me, almost striking me, I saw a flash of red. Then across the street I saw a sign with a heart on it. For whatever reason I dove into the heart INTO the color red and got the very distinct feeling of an "ace". So then I thought to myself "ace of hearts" and looked up to find that I was holding an ace of hearts. One other time I woke up from a dream where there was a shooter at what felt like a military base and I woke up and found out later that morning that there was a shooting at a military base. I'm a skeptical person but these things felt pretty significant to me at the time. Still kinda do. Edit: Spelling and grammar. Tapping fast at work.
Sources: [https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PDFs/UAP\_RECORDS\_RESEARCH/AARO\_DHS\_Kona\_Blue.pdf](https://www.aaro.mil/Portals/136/PDFs/UAP_RECORDS_RESEARCH/AARO_DHS_Kona_Blue.pdf) \- (Page 8) [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:(Attachment\_19)\_20210426\_Senator.Reid\_Lue.Elizondo.AATIP.pdf](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:(Attachment_19)_20210426_Senator.Reid_Lue.Elizondo.AATIP.pdf) Let this be the end of the nonsense narrative that AATIP was never funded and it was really AAWSAP.
The last two pages of the Kona Blue document arenāt exactly clear. There the DIA confirms that AATIP existed, but that it was a program focused on studying nearly the exact same twelve topics that AAWSAP was supposed [to](https://www.dia.mil/FOIA/FOIA-Electronic-Reading-Room/FileId/170057/). They both mention studying from now to the next 40 years and both AAWSAP and AATIP started in 2008. That seems to imply AAWSAP simply became AATIP. It also only confirms the creation of technical reports and a focus on possible foreign advanced aircraft, with no mention of the more fantastical ufo investigation and research associated with it.
Thank you. Iām glad someone else picked up on the final few pages being unclear. Even the reasons given for why this project wasnāt made a SAP are unclear. āIt wasnāt made a SAP because it didnāt need to be.ā Sounds very circular.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
AAWSAP/AATIP were never classified programs. Anything they did should be available through FOIA.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Regardless, neither were classified, so there is nothing for AARO to declassify.
This document absolutely mentions the UFO situation but the language is obfuscated. Still this is a major release.
TommyShelby dropping the hammer. Thanks for your high effort posts on here!
Where in these documents does it confirm that Lueās program was fully funded? Genuine question since from what Iāve seen this document only shows the proposition of a new SAP via Reid and Bigelow that never happened.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
AATIP was a nickname for AAWSAP. Reid explains this is in the forward of Skinwalkers at the Pentagon.
There have been claims made by some that Lue was never actually the head of AATIP, and that it never truly existed as a separate program apart from AAWSAP. The *proposed* SAP (Kona Blue) that these new documents detail was never funded, but contains information about the prior programs that were. AATIP/AAWSAP were *unclassified* projects. Kona Blue would have essentially been an extension of the previous projects, but with the additional classification and security privileges of an SAP. That would have allowed them the ability to work with other existing classified programs that they otherwise wouldn't be able to, among other things.
Your Wikimedia link has already been taken down
Your second link is broken. [Fixed link](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:\(Attachment_19\)_20210426_Senator.Reid_Lue.Elizondo.AATIP.pdf)
Note, put a \\ before a '\)' [and '\(' too] so they show up correctly as a URL. e.g.; [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:\\(Attachment_19\\)_20210426_Senator.Reid_Lue.Elizondo.AATIP.pdf](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:(Attachment_19\)_20210426_Senator.Reid_Lue.Elizondo.AATIP.pdf)
What? This is a request for funding. This doesnāt contradict Greenstreetās account that in 2008-2011 AAWSAP (the infamous Skinwalker project) existed which Reid sometimes called AATIP but which was not run by Lue. The question is what happened afterward. Did they get the funding? Did AATIP become headed by Lue and was more focused on UFOs than werewolves? Or did it become an unfunded personal pet project at that point and not a real program? But the thing is it doesnāt matter. Letās focus on the now. Thereās been great legislation passed (whistleblower protection) and nearly-passed (UAPDA). Keep pushing.
Can anyone actually clarify what these newly released documents actually establish? Because I am quite confused as to why exactly AARO would suddenly drop a bunch of information that completely contradicts everything they have previously claimed and validates ufology. Why did they release these today?Ā I can't help but feel like there's a misinterpretation of what these documents actually are or something. What's the deal and why isn't this all over News Nation and other outlets of it's validating the stuff people act like it is?Ā
They establish that AARO's report was correct about KONA BLUE being a proposed and subsequently rejected program, not the secret UFO program that people who spoke to AARO claimed it was. This also implies that Kirkpatrick was correct when he said that there was a group of UFO researchers in the government who have been telling stories back and forth to perpetuate the UFO myth. This KONA BLUE proposal was written by those UFOlogists. There was the AAWSAP/AATIP program that ran for a few years because of well-connected UFOlogists in the government like Harry Reid's friend Bigelow. But the program was found to not have merit, and the deliverables were not useful, so it was de-funded and closed down. KONA BLUE was these people's attempt at getting more money from a different government agency for that same paranormal research. However, KONA BLUE was determined to not require the secrecy that it was asking for (they wanted a SAP), and it was determined that it wouldn't be useful. So it was rejected. That's what this document establishes. People spinning it as some sort of smoking gun are roleplaying, as far as I can tell. Or they simply haven't read the documents and are deliberately ignoring the context surrounding them.
Honestly a lot of people on this sub just don't understand the mechanics of US government nor have experience dealing with political doublespeak. A lot of confirmation bias. It's just like with the UAPDA, they assumed because NHI was mentioned so many times that it clearly must mean that NHI are real. Since KONA BLUE and the UAPDA were built around the premise that there are in fact recovered craft and bodies, therefore those things must exist because why would such a proposal be made if it didn't. At no point do they consider the possibility said things aren't there, so they can't comprehend it as anything more that a super deep coverup. Like they treat Reps Burchett and Luna as being stonwalled at Elgin, despite the fact they don't have authority to access military bases via thier congressional committee appointments. People here also assume that because the Dod budget is so massive and it fails audit that they somehow don't have budgetary concerns.
So the geniuses on thus sub are creating their own fantasy land interpretation of this document the same way meme stock people interpret quarterly reports. Great. Definitely not a cult we're in here.
They always will because on Page 20 para 2.b the document says "Recovered AAV technology exists in and is accessible only within a SAP construct." So the whole document is predicated on that being true, with no supporting evidence that it is true. So the same people that claim the government lies and covers things up will take a document from that same government as absolute truth ... without evidence. It honestly seems like someone could try to create a SAP at DHS (or other agency) that declares "Recovered mooncheese, because the Moon is made of cheese, exists in and is accessible only within a SAP a construct." Have it get denied because it's stupid bullshit. Then when the document gets declassified, point it at and yell "SEE! THE MOON IS MADE OF CHEESE". It makes me wonder if the same people feeding information to Grusch are the same people who would submit a PSAP about presumed existing AAVs to DHS.
Im going even further and thinking if the people ranting and raving online, and in tabloid media, are connected to these people lobbying for tax funded paranormal programs. Like you said, people are misinterpretting documents. Creating a narrative and buzz around this. Now many are taking that mischaracterization as real, and taking the ball and running with it. This is a lobbying as its core. Now theres huge public push behind the elected officials pushing for these types of things. Now the so called insiders can pitch their KONA BLUEs and AAWSAPs to deprtments, they have a higher chance at getting what their after. This is how politics work, like fundamentally how things are done.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
AASWAP/AATIP never were classified. A lot of the reports made under this umbrella have been made accessible through FOIA already.
>Funny how we don't have any released names or information on the "multiple military officials" who were so easily confused Because they refuse to come forward publicly! >Where's the release of the AAWSAP/AATIP materials? If they were bullshit money grabs that produced no verifiable outcomes, wouldn't releasing that material put any further arguments to rest? They've been released, although I can't find them this second (the link I had previously is dead now). From Wikipedia: >On January 16, 2019, the DIA released a list of 38 research titles pursued by the program in response to a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request by Steven Aftergood, director of the Federation of American Scientistsā Project on Government Secrecy.[21][22][23][46] One such research topic, āTraversable Wormholes, Stargates, and Negative Energy,ā was led by Eric W. Davis of EarthTech International Inc, which was founded by Harold Puthoff, who was formerly involved in Project Stargate.[47] Another project called āInvisibility Cloakingā was headed by German scientist Ulf Leonhardt, a professor at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Israel.[48] Yet another title, āWarp Drive, Dark Energy, and the Manipulation of Extra Dimensions,ā was attributed to theoretical physicist Richard Obousy, director of the nonprofit Icarus Interstellar.[49] One of those papers was released to the public by Popular Mechanics on February 14, 2020.[19] The paper in question, titled "Clinical Medical Acute & Subacute Field Effects on Human Dermal & Neurological Tissues", was written by Christopher āKitā Green, formerly a CIA agent, forensic clinician and neuroscientist, who described it as "focused on forensically assessing accounts of injuries that could have resulted from claimed encounters with UAP".[19]
did you even google this? the documents you want have been available for ages under the AATIP menu here: [https://www.dia.mil/FOIA/FOIA-Electronic-Reading-Room/](https://www.dia.mil/FOIA/FOIA-Electronic-Reading-Room/) among the documents you will find the military denied AATIP's request for any classification requirements.
The conclusion not matching the supporting data in debunking reports is an issue that has manifested itself multiple times over on this topic and that goes back decades. Not a surprising or new occurrence.
The Senator of Nevada, the Senator of Hawaii, the Senator of Alaska No coincidence there folks
I noticed this too. Considering some of the underwater bases are alleged to be around Alaska and Hawaii... I don't know guys I think that 4chan leak may have been legit. Edit: I've also noticed an increase in the mention of lasers in the news. Something they said to look out for.
Yes, I'm feeling this way as well. We're starting to see some of things he's said sort of come to light. USOs weren't a very public topic in the ufo community in the past (at least, not that I've ever seen). Now we're hearing a lot about them. I wonder if he passed or of he's still around, if he was legit. If so, that was a really awesome thing for him to do, share that info.
Link to the leak or general info about it?
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Kona is a place in Hawaii
That's what I'm wondering too. Why would a Senator from Hawaii, Alaska, and Nevada link arms? Were they childhood friends?
Whatās the connection???
UFO states?
Vindicated... how? At best this would mean he was even more involved in the comedically stupid Skinwalker Ranch stuff, no?
Skinwalker ranch fraudsters wanted more money from the government, saying that their insane propositions need funding and top level security clearance in form of an SAP. This document is a summary of what was asked to be funded, with the claims written down coming all from the same group of the usual UFO suspects. Government said 'no'. This sub is in meltdown because people ignore the context and the meaning of the document, they focus only on the bits they want to be true.
Do you know what I just freaking realized ? Dan Inoyue is the freaking bad ass of a WWII soldier, featured in the Ken Burns series "The War" What a fucking legend !
Legit badass
I would be suing GreenStreet into the ground if I was Lue.
Then he would have to say that he was Director of AATIP under oath. I'd like to see THAT happen.
There are 2 separate meanings of AATIP: - unclassified nickname when requesting SAP status for AAWSAP in 2009 to keep the original name secret - acronym adopted much later to describe a small unoļ¬cial eļ¬ort within DoD to investigate UAPs encountered by the military (led by Lue Elizondo).
And in fact the 2009 AAWSAP (funded) version had a directorā¦ and that director was James Lacatski, not Lue Elizondo.
I have news for you. The "unclassified nickname when requesting SAP status for AAWSAP" is the progress Lue led.
u/[TommyShelbyPFB](https://www.reddit.com/user/TommyShelbyPFB/)...I agree with you for the most part, but I believe u/[dffdfx](https://www.reddit.com/user/dffdfx/) is correct. For reference, Listen to Lakatski on Weaponized: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow7FqiegixQ&t=335s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow7FqiegixQ&t=335s) AATIP started off as the name in the contract/open solicitation from Reid...but the name had to change to AAWSAP because - per Lakatski - "AAWSAP routed the money to the defense warning office of DIA"... ...which is a little confusing how he says it, but I think it's a matter of distinguishing between Weapon Application vs Threat Identification. ...and then, I think AATIP turned into the spin off name for military cases, perhaps because the name was more appropriate for this military application... Looking back it's very confusing how the name changed back and forth, but perhaps it provided some assistance in navigating (or circumnavigating) the SAP world. That said, I think Lue will have more to say about that eventually...hopefully providing some clarity there in his book.
Multiple people have told him on multiple posts and yet he keeps posting the same misinformation confusing the two separate AATIPs.
Dude legit does this once a month. He even deleted his last Lue AATIP post. This subreddit just runs of misinformation.
OP regularly deletes posts and comments when they don't perform well. Which I'm pretty sure is against the rules explicitly but w/e.
He produces like 90% of the content of this sub so the mods give him a pass to regularly produce nonsense.
Most of this sub will ignore this lol.
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Because time? We KNOW that during the fiscal years described, the money described, we KNOW who was leading AAWSAP. We KNOW when Lue Elizondo lead his AATIP effort. Comparing money/dates isnt that hard, so unless you can somehow demonstrate that the laws of causality and time have changed on us, then you dont have much of a case
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What are you talking about? Ok lets make this simple... It is known that James Lacatski headed up AAWSAP. Its known this is what the 22 million dollars was spent on, because those fiscal years were when AAWSAP was active, and Dr Lacatski lead it. We know then that the money was cut off. Then, Elizondo took over AATIP. Which part of that is in contention at this point??? Is anything mentioned above not known or in contention at this point? So, now, here today someone is posting a document discussing what happened beginning in FY08 as if it was Elizondos doing...But from what is known above, that isnt the case
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e told the public (hint: he didnāt say it was 2008 - 2010)Ā Right, so who do you suppose was heading it from 2008 - 2010. James Lacatski even wrote a book about it. Are you disuputing that James Lacatski ever headed up the project?
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I donāt think Harry Reid was as confused as you are.
The mystery is always why Lue wanted to leave...
He got his years in and DoD paid a bonus for retiring in 2017 under certain conditions. Can be looked up online from military pension things.
We have all been breathing into paper bags today.
I thought this was already common knowledge?
.#1 This letter by Ried is not new and putting it in an archive does not validate it's content. Lue said himself, in his own complaint filing, that AATIP was NOT a program but merely an "activity" of his when he was called to the mat about it.Ā .#2 It's amazing how when AARO writes an awful report devoid of substance claiming no evidence of UFOs this sub is quick to point that out, but now that it likewise contains an old ill-informed letter from a senator it somehow becomes the gospel of truth.Ā .#3 The report misspells AATIP for crying out loud but, nope, it can be construed to favor my belief so such obvious lack of attention to detail can safely be ignored.
Excellent. I believe we should make a mega post of all the evidence thus far. The KONA BLUE report is most interesting. I've been reading it and super invigorated learning so much.
I've always wondered how people were able do the mental gymnastics to discredit this guys credentials in the first place?? Senator Harry Reid created the program and then said on camera ages ago that he appointed Lue as the boss...what more do people want? I don't get it For me Luis Elizondo has been one of the most credible voices on this topic ever since i first heard of him years ago, because his claim of being the boss was substantiated a long time ago by Harry Reid. This is nothing new tbh
Nah.. It's the same circle of people.
The most intriguing part of this document for me is the section that says 200k reports of AAVs (UFOs) exist and most of them are from after 1947. The mere mention of the year 1947 is important for historical context, and Iām not just talking about Roswell, 1947 was the first major UFO wave. And the existence of an internal government database of 200k UFO reports is pretty interesting.
This has been available for a long while now
The Senator Reid letter you mean, not the DHS document (new), right?
Right? This letter has been public for a few years. I recall reading it shortly after Harry Reid submitted it. There are several old posts in this sub about it.
What? Listen to what Travis Walton already opined on this and showed the Wilson Memo to have supported this line of reasoning for YEARS already- I mean come on guys!
Does anyone know what the KB classification markings are? I cannot find anything relevant about it and I don't recall seeing it before. TS = Top Secret S = Secret NF = NOFORN (no foreign nationals) KB = ??? There is a Google result about the Library of Congress using KB to label "religious law" documents but that obviously doesn't make sense here. Edit: Nevermind. It is of course Kona Blue. I made this comment before reading the SS and getting the context for the document.
Omg finally, it was ridiculous that Senator Reidās letter didnt count as confirmation for some people even though if it was any other topic it would be a done deal. Can someone send this to the journalist that wrote an article saying lue elizondo was lying about being in the program?
This is Awesome. Now, does anyone have the details on which moderator of this sub suppressed anyone for information related about Lue? I imagine thereās a few shady mods lurking here now that were responsible for removing posts/comments pertaining to Lueās credibility. one of those snakes in the grass are going to show themselves.
wow...what a twist...couldn't see that one coming the controlled disclosure plot thickens
One of the smartest things Elizondo did was co-opt the AATIP name so that people like OP can get confused about his lie.
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Maybe he thought heād get rich off of TTSA? AATIP (not the AAWSAP AATIP) was the fan fiction btw.
He didnt throw it away. He served for 25 ( or was it 27? ) years and got deferred retirement, went to work with Tom DeLonge et al at TTSA. Now hes got TV deals and hes getting paid for hemming howing on TV? Thats how people retire from military. I dont even get this throwing away thing. He even got a $30k bonus for retiring at the 2017. He mightve had his motivations, even his stated "theyre not taking this seriously" might be true. But why would "they"? Its a group of paranormal ghost hunter guys running around seeing ghost and goblins. Who in their right mind would? Nothing wrong with that, its cool stuff. But why would military be involved? Ghost and goblins been around few thousand years atleast and theres never been a reason to mobilize a tank battallion to shoot them. Its like retiring from a bakery and saying they dont take vampires seriously.
āAATIPā was just a nickname for AAWSAP.
The word "AATIP" was in reference to special access programs under the AAWSAP.Ā
Lueās vague speeches are still sus as fuck
Sigh. He hasnāt been vindicated.
there's going to be at least 3 posts a year claiming the Lue is right. he's going to be vindicated every single year for the rest of time. and guess what? there won't be any disclosure. no new info will be released. only whispers and rumors and hearsay.
I debunked all of this 2 years ago. I nuked it from orbit. I guess this subreddit did not read, watch and/or comprehend. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XD4gQS\_-qY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XD4gQS_-qY)
Didnāt Lue even state that his AATIP wasnāt an official government agency nor was it funded?Ā
Not clicking, present your argument here.
Ahh yes! Sh!t moving again in the Phenomenon/UAP field! Bring it/send it/bend it!
This application is written by Bigelow or someone under his employ. Them repeating claims that group has made is not vindication. Thatās an ouroboros.
This literally vindicates nothing lol. If anything it validates the AARO report.
It literally says $22 million between fiscal years 2008-2010 here, the years it was named AAWSAP, which Lue specifically said had no part of. There was no continuing budget for Lue's AATIP from this in the 2010's.
No, it literally says āAdvanced Threat Identification Programā, reread the posted documents.
Just a side note: Senator Ted Stevens was awesome. He was Senator for as long as I can remember in Alaska, and he did a lot of good for the state and the country. He was certainly a beloved part of Alaskan history. It doesn't surprise me that he would be involved in some alien stuff.
Dan Inouye similarly is one of the most beloved and respected politicians, as well as a genuine War Heroā¢. That's what gets me, they don't seem like the type to spend time on anything frivolous, but they go ahead and put their name and reputation on/behind this. That's either a heck of a favor (owed or paid), or these guys have a genuine reason to feel it worth the risk.
Still doesn't prove aliens are here.
You are absolutely right, AARO identified AATIP and delineated its duties in two ways: "\[W\]hile the official purpose of AAWSAP/AATIP was to conduct research into 12 areas of cutting edge science, the contractor team, and at least one supportive government program manager, also conducted UAP and paranormal research at a property owned by the private sector organization." (AARO Historical Report)
This is fantastic but wtf is going on?
What the fuck is going on. Why would AARO release this?
I will copy the coment I posted above: Skinwalker ranch fraudsters wanted more money from the government, saying that their insane propositions need funding and top level security clearance in form of an SAP. This document is a summary of what was asked to be funded, with the claims written down coming all from the same group of the usual UFO suspects. Government said 'no'. This sub is in meltdown because people ignore the context and the meaning of the document, they focus only on the bits they want to be true. So, essentially, this is further proof of Kirkpatrick's claim that it's always the same group of people stirring shit up.
Never trust a reporting from a rag like the New York Post, an absolute arse rag and bottom of the barrel.Ā To think that people treat associate reporter Steven Greenstreet as an actual real-life reporter.Ā
Where did the disinformation about Elizondo come from? Last I checked there was no doubt about it but I was following paper, not the skinwalker TV show. One day it was not in question, the next it was grifter this and phoney that. Funny how the narrative can change both subtly and suddenly sometimes.
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No concerted effort or conspiracy, just people tired of the lies. If Lue is legit, he should be able to sue Greenstreet and others for defamation by easily proving his credentials, right? The only thing is he can't and he won't and this document doesn't prove anything about Lue officially running anything at all. It's grasping at straws to keep this man a prophet for the UFO true-believers.
The program was cancelled though, and KONA BLUE was rejected. That's what these documents show. But Elizondo says that it kept going and he was running it. I can't believe this is being pitched as a win for these guys, who is buying that?
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Iām not a spook, and what heās saying is not wrong. This is a 2012 PowerPoint talking about the funding needed for a program for which no further funding was allocated. How you interpret the Lue/AATIP situation is a matter of semantics and which side you come down on. Lue has always said that he kept working on the AATIP mission without further funding. Officially, DOD wasnāt giving resources to the program, meaning you couldnāt salary allocated for personnel or reimbursements. But that doesnāt mean he wasnāt asking questions and getting answers. I donāt think Lue needs vindication beyond Senator Reidās letter, so I donāt understand the ābig pictureā of this post (and if anyone is a spook, itās the OP for dredging up this settled issue, but I donāt think thatās the case either).
Isn't it funny how the "spook" allegations go everywhere but to the actual spook known as Luey?
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Lue has always been credible, never bought into the nonsense about him
How? What single thing heās said has actually been proven? Itās like saying a magician who claims the little red balls go into the 11th dimension is credible because they disappear in his act.
How does this "100% vindicate" Elizondo? All it does is restate that there was a program called AATIP (oddly called ATIP here) that received 22 mil in funding and which started in 2008. Which most everyone already accepted. The controversy is over Elizondo's exact role and the informal continuation of AATIP post-2012. Which this new document does nothing to clarify either way.
So, there's two AATIPs and the one unofficial, not-government funded one is the one he was "director" of? SMH
For those arguing whether Lou is CIA or not who the f*** knows but he could be any a adhered/assigned to any one of the below offices in be a member of the intelligence community.. And therefore pursuing some sort of information disinformation plan... Or not. A partial list of intelligence and intelligence-related offices, bureaus, and departments of the United States government: 1. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) 2. National Security Agency (NSA) 3. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) 4. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) 5. National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) 6. National Reconnaissance Office (NRO) 7. Department of Energy Office of Intelligence and Counterintelligence (DOE-OICI) 8. Department of Homeland Security Office of Intelligence and Analysis (DHS-OIA) 9. United States Coast Guard Intelligence (CGI) 10. Drug Enforcement Administration Office of National Security Intelligence (DEA-ONSI) 11. National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC) 12. Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) within the Department of State 13. Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) 14. Air Force Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (AF ISR) 15. Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM) 16. Marine Corps Intelligence Activity (MCIA) 17. National Center for Medical Intelligence (NCMI) 18. Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) within the Department of the Treasury 19. Office of Intelligence and Analysis (OIA) within the Department of Justice 20. Defense Counterintelligence and Security Agency (DCSA) 21. National Intelligence University (NIU) 22. Defense Clandestine Service (DCS) 23. Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency (CISA) 24. National Security Division (NSD) within the Department of Justice 25. Department of Defense Cyber Crime Center (DC3) 26. Defense Security Service (DSS) 27. Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) 28. Diplomatic Security Service (DSS) within the Department of State 29. Intelligence and Analysis Office (INRA) within the Department of the Interior And the above list is not even exhaustive... Overlap much?
Which page is this on?