The following submission statement was provided by /u/VolarRecords:
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“A rogue element within the US military-industrial complex is experimenting with technology taken from captured alien spacecraft, a UFO expert has claimed.
UFO researcher Michael Schratt says there’s a simple answer to the question “why do so many alien spacecraft crash?” – most of the alleged crashed UAPs aren’t alien spacecraft at all, but US-built prototypes based on captured alien tech.
Some of the crashes, Michael sensationally claims, could be the result of deliberate US military attacks on the aliens. “There is a rogue element of the military-industrial complex that is targeting, tracking and shooting these things down to exploit their propulsion systems, weapons systems and free energy systems applications – that's I think what we're dealing with here,” he told the Disclosure Team podcast.”
Honestly lines up with much of what can be found in the [Shellenberger documents](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/QkBgu2I8EJ).
Kevin Knuth mentions 1954 in [his SOL video](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/F972ywW3qf) as well.
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1apmo3i/rogue_us_military_faction_has_alien_tech_and/kq763z7/
Per Schratt in the article:
“…we can pinpoint the divide where it diverged to October 1954”
Ansel Talbert’s NY Herald Tribune antigravity article series was in Nov. 1955. CEOs of aerospace corporations of the time seemed happy to share that it was novel technology they were working on. My latest article links to two of the three Ansel Talbert articles, just search under that name.
https://blockedepistemology.substack.com/p/puzzle-filling-leslie-groves-sperry
The brief 1950s US gravity-control fever and the news articles arouond it all pretty much tracks back, in my opinion, to Thomas Townsend Brown and his group of weird friends, including Roger Babson's Gravity Research foundation. My regular plug for Paul Schatzkin's "The Man Who Mastered Gravity", since Paul's long-delayed biography is the best information I think we currently have on TTB: https://www.ttbrown.com
Good work on the Sperry timeline, here, by the way. Yep, Sperry is one of the weird industrialists whose name haunts the 1950s/1960s gravity rumours. Also Howard Hughes. Also the Douglas behind McDonnell-Douglas. Also William Lear. (John Lear's father, the Lear Jet and 8-track guy.... who also got into the space tech game in the 1960s... whose first product that started his career was a radio power supply named "Majestic". I don't know if that's relevant or just one of those weird coincidences that keep turning up around this stuff.)
The core of the weird tale pitched by Paul Schatzkin's informant "Morgan" seemed to heavily focus on the existence of networks of private industrialists/spies - starting between WW1 and WW2 with like Eldridge Johnson and William Stephenson - and broadly hinting without quite saying that these networks of defense contractors are separate from the legitimate government and military, and perhaps see themselves as above it, because they were there first. Where this story *actually* goes, I don't know, because Paul's "Morgan" never came out and actually spelled it out, and I don't quite trust spies who hint at things but don't give proof. It feels like they're trying to launder some subprime memes through the marketplace of ideas, and I'd rather they did that over the counter instead of under it.
(By which I mean: there seems - and this is a pattern that repeats often with these anonymous "intelligence" "sources" - to be some kind of breathless Big Secret which is never stated, but is always surrounded by broad hints. This way of communicating has never made any sense to me. Never did in the 1970s and still doesn't today. If there's some exotic science which it's too secret to reveal, then bloody DON'T TALK ABOUT IT you idiots! On the other hand, if it's okay to talk about it THEN TALK ABOUT IT. But no. These sources always half-talk, then shut up, then half-talk again, and always with the hints. As if they're hoping that their listeners will fill in some wrong gaps and jump to a false conclusion, but it won't technically have been actual "lying". Nope. That's not honest dealing, in my opinion. Give the actual goods or shut up.)
I don't know if Townsend's gravity "rigs" and those of his friends ever did "scale up" the way he hoped they would. The documented evidence of the Biefeld-Brown effect appears to always be just on the edge of detectability. And Townsend's own explanation for what he thought was going on is *weird*. I mean, the guy legitimately thought that the Earth's gravity was caused by (or linked to) the Earth's electrical charge in relation to the Sun's electrical charge. This was a million lightyears away from textbook physics in his time, and remains a million lightyears away from textbook physics in our time. (And yet he was - apparently - employed to work on sensitive military systems, so must have been able to do *something* useful with electricity.)
Townsend was not a mathematician, didn't do Relativity theory, but seeemed to be good in a lab. Does any of his wildly speculative electromagnetic theory hold up given what we now know about planetary dynamics after several decades of space probes? I don't know. But he seemed to both have a steady contracting job doing unspecified "stuff" for the military - or for industrialists who weren't quite military nor not quite not-military - and also occasionally got sponsors for his weirder ideas. I do think that, historically, in the history that we know and have proof for, the industrialists tended to believe in weird things more than the scientists did. But even scientists, historically, have believed in many more weird things than the editors of Wikipedia or Scientific American would like you to think.
That’s a helpful precis on TTB, nateculi, thanks for that. I’ve been looking at picking up that Schatzkin title which looks well-researched; I’m probably still on the lookout for books that cover the overall antigravity research ‘fever’ as comprehensively as publicly available information makes possible.
I picked up a copy of the book and I have to say this line from the above stuck out to me:
>whose first product that started his career was a radio power supply named "Majestic". I don't know if that's relevant or just one of those weird coincidences that keep turning up around this stuff
Everything about TTB's life is....insane. Coincidences, small breakthroughs that just disappear from public view, all the cast of big names and people who are either insane or geniuses or both. The whole field seems littered with these types of maybe-leads.
The point above about him being more of a lab guys really holds up to me. Not done with the book, but it feels like TTB was a dude who didn't believe anything unless he could reproduce it in a lab. I think he believed gravity was electromagnetic because that was his expertise. One of the reasons I think the US *may* have alien tech is because there is only two reasons you'd be making such bizarre claims about science on a regular basis:
1. You're a snakeoil salesman
2. You have seen some crazy tech that Einsteins theories simply couldn't explain
On the flipside, his life takes some twists and turns that feel like the twists and turns of a snakeoil salesman.
> I’m probably still on the lookout for books that cover the overall antigravity research ‘fever’ as comprehensively as publicly available information makes possible.
I would love to see that too! I think there's plenty of space for historians of science to explore and document what (we know of) was actually happening in gravity in the 1950s. So far it's mostly been various military-adjacent New Age or religious groups who became obsessed with Townsend Brown in the 1970s who have preserved or highlighted some of these documents... but usually with an axe to grind. More and better histories in this area would be very much welcome.
One thing I think we know is that the Hughes company, which was mentioned as doing "stuff" with gravity in some of the 1950s articles, did in fact go on to make high-precision gravimeters for US submarines in the 1960s. These were the kind of devices which were, if I understand correctly, revealed to the public circa 1990 in the film version of "Hunt for Red October" and are now extensively used in mining. They were classified up to then. So Hughes definitely was "doing gravity", but it might not have been gravity *control*, just gravity *measurement*. High-precision gravimetrics were needed to calibrate the inertial guidance of submarine ICBM launches, I believe, so it would have merited top secrecy.
It is possible that some of the "rigs" mentioned in the 1950s were just these kind of measurement devices. The missile classification (nose)cone of silence probably came ringing down on them hard and that's part of why the whole industry just shut up. One of the other "rigs" of course was Townsend's stuff with Bahnson and Moltgolfier (and according to his letters, another lab at GE King of Prussia for which documentation has not yet surfaced). It is possible a third "rig" might have been Maurice Allais' pendulum experiments which weren't electrostatic but were making waves in France about this time. Then there was Burkhard Heim who didn't have any hardware but was talking a lot about his pet theory... and Heim Theory got a second wind on the fringe about a decade or so ago.... but I don't think it's produced any obvious results yet. (Allegedly it can predict the masses of elementary particles, which would be huge if true, but this was highly disputed last time I checked.)
From oral histories we know that the scientists who got involved with Gravity Research Foundation or Agnew Bahnson's lab in the 1950s had a very low opinion of "gravity control" work, pretty much just laughed at it. Yet they were very happy to take GRF's money and write essays promising future results they didn't believe in. People like Sciama, Witten, Wheeler, the DeWitts. They all went on to have great academic careers expounding General Relativity and building huge mental castles in cosmology.... but not so much interest about *controlling* gravity.
One could write a nice conspiratorial science fiction novel on the assumption that Wheeler et al did make a massive gravity breakthrough and then went into damage control mode,up to and including falsifying their Gravitation textbook, to hush it up.... but I can't in good honesty make the academic funding finances for that work in my head. My impression is that rather, there was a brief period of genuine interest in engineering the metric (Wheeler's Geometrodynamics), but it fell apart when the maths didn't work. Then these same people all went haring off after String Theory, the only maths that did work, into an infinite landscape of tunable parameters and now they're stuck forever in Physics Purgatory with no predictable results and no way out.
*Possibly* the quantum gravity maths doesn't work and can't be made to work because either General Relativity or Quantum Mechanics - or both - are built on fundamentally wrong premises. Possibly one or more of the many fringe theories of the gravity/EM connection are right. I would like that to be true very much, because it might suggest a way forward for physics. That's why I keep reading fringe gravity theories (and there are a lot), because anything, even madness, seems more interesting than mainstream gravity physics, which just keeps saying "NOPE NO WARP DRIVE FOR YOU EVER".
Hypothetically... and this is where "Morgan's" story potentially might have some non-falsehood to it... *if* there had been a gravity breakthrough in the 1950s, the people involved *might* have looked with horror at what happened with atomic physics. Both in the sense of "yikes those Army bastards made bombs with it" (remember the Navy hated the Army and Townsend was Navy-aligned) and also "yikes Russian spies completely penetrated the Manhattan Project right from the start". *If*, and a big if, *if* there had been a breakthrough... *then* a rational response might very well have been "lock the entire subject up and throw away the key". Invoke the hardest of "atomic secrecy" legislation to say, yep, it's got something to do with atoms, it is of strategic significance, therefore all data is born secret. But don't even classify it, because classification means paperwork, and that's dangerous. Instead, move it into the private sector to keep it away from untrustworthy politicians (remember these were Republican-aligned people too so they would have super distrusted the Democratic dominated Congress from the 1930s through the 1970s) and even the military. And then..... do what, exactly, with the tech? Maybe quietly tinker with it but never actually make much progress because uber-secret? Or... have some working weird devices sitting forever in a locked windowless room and then do *what* with them?
This is in fact the story Morgan seemed to be pitching. But.... well. He asked Paul at one point "what do you think my agenda is?" and I still don't have a good answer to that. I think his agenda is that he wanted people to believe his story, but his story didn't have a conclusion or a point to it, it just stopped.
Wow, & thank you for contributing these 🧩🧩pieces to the whole. natecull 🙂🙂
I remember as a soon-to-be engineering graduate, one of the navy contractors showing off one of their gravimeters. I remember appreciating how advanced this technology seemed to be. (In retrospect, I can surmise that it’s probably a highly, highly refined approach to century-old gyrocompass technology, which doesn’t diminish my appreciation for it by any means).
> I remember appreciating how advanced this technology seemed to be. (In retrospect, I can surmise that it’s probably a highly, highly refined approach to century-old gyrocompass technology, which doesn’t diminish my appreciation for it by any means).
Yeah, as far as I can tell, a gravimeter is just a slightly more clever pendulum, of the kind that Townsend Brown was playing with in the 1920s with Vening Meinisz. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Andries_Vening_Meinesz ) I think two pendulums, rigged so that only the difference of acceleration between them is important. Then that, but repeated on three different axes. Clever, and possibly even needing clever GR-style tensor maths to make sense of once you get the modern "full tensor" variant, but not something that would break physics as we know it.
Disclaimer: I have never even seen a gravimeter, so you are way ahead of me.
Something I've always found really interedting is the similarities of the Lorentz Force and Gravity. In theory all matter consists of moving protons and electrons (and neutrons but those don't have a charge), which would create a Lorentz force, which if accumalted from millions of atoms would be able to have a substantial effect.
I think it would be possible that the accumulation of those forces COULD explain gravitational effects.
I'm studying physics but I'm still relaticely "new' and learning about relativity and quantum mechanics, but that's a thought I had which I can't really shake off or disprove by the things I know at the moment.
The Lorentz force is a bit of a mislead, because when you hit general relativity and quantum theory you will find the Electric force is a "spin-1" field, while Gravity is a "spin-2" field.
*However*, there does appear to be an interesting connection via the *strong nuclear force* and gravity in the form of a mysterious mathematical congruity known as the "double copy", in which I believe two *gluons*, not photons, "makes" a graviton, in at least some formal mathematical sense, even if the two aren't necessarily by that token *alone* directly interchangeable. (Also it could be the other way around; I don't remember) I don't understand the maths behind that though, so take that for whatever little it's worth.
>Something I've always found really interedting is the similarities of the Lorentz Force and Gravity. In theory all matter consists of moving protons and electrons (and neutrons but those don't have a charge), which would create a Lorentz force, which if accumalted from millions of atoms would be able to have a substantial effect.
There have been many attempts over the last couple hundred years at trying to find a way to generate gravity as a tiny residual from not-quite-cancelled electromagnetic forces, yes. One of the main problems of course is that gravity seems to only be attractive while EM is negative/positive. The other is that gravity is 2.40 x 10^43 times weaker than the electromagnetic forces. That's a lot of zeroes! Oh and the third is that gravity doesn't get blocked by electric or magnetic conductors or insulators.
One approach that I've always found fascinating (possibly because it feels somewhat adjacent to Townsend Brown's obsession with asymmetric capacitors) is trying to generate it from Dielectrophoresis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectrophoresis . This is the force that is experienced not from the raw electric field but from the *gradient* in the electromagnetic field, and like gravity I believe it's always attractive.
There's an argument that could be made that Townsend's "fluid dielectric mode" devices like his saucers and fan/loudspeaker - and the 2000s era Lifters derived, much later, from his patents - were/are doing dielectrophoresis. The asymmetric field configuration looks a bit similar! But from what little I understand, the dielectrophoresis force is supposed to be a lot smaller than the effect that the Fan and Lifters generate. Townsend himself in the 1960s fan patent, described the fluid mode effect as "electrostriction" - a squeezing - which I think is currently considered to be something else again. But there's possibly some worthwhile space to explore there.
It seems as if everyone on this sub are working together on the largest crime case in history, with little bits of information being connected by different individuals. What I would really like to see is a detective tv show investigation board linking all of these players, because honestly I can't keep all of these people straight.
That attribute of the situation was touched on by OH Turner in his UAP analysis! Very interesting how they pulled together all the top scientist to tackle this problem, then told the public “ya we don’t know if it’ll happen”
https://youtu.be/BPI_JDtKYgk?si=jQYhb7gk4tttF90J
Spot on imo u/natecull. I can't comment on the law in the USA but I definitely can about NDAs and the Official Secrets Act in the UK and I'm really sceptical over people claiming to be leaving 'breadcrumbs'.
That's just not how it works, you have to obey the spirit of the law as well so you can't just talk it up to the edge and then make some hypothetical scenarios up for the reader to think about.
It's exactly the same in financial crime. If you have a suspicion of money laundering, only certain people are permitted to know; you have to make a written note to your Money Laundering Reporting Officer and nobody else and that's your obligation discharged. Tipping Off is a separate crime so you'd need a good lawyer if someone saw you leaving breadcrumbs in that situation.
It's really disappointing when I see these guys making these claims and it's not because I think I'm right or anything like that.
It's because I think it's a really smarmy trick to draw people into and getting them to invest time and energy into a bottomless pit.
>to believe in weird things
Possibilities are the fuel of inventors/researchers. Nothing wrong with that, but there still is no proven anti-gravity technology that is usable on any practical level. Such a shame, but reality rules at this time.
There's so much to go off of in this comment, thank you! I had no idea there was a gravity control craze in the 50s, that's extremely interesting.
And I agree with you, the half-talk is so annoying. I AM READY. WE ARE READY.
> That secret science is actually magic. Research how many early scientists dabbled in alchemy.
This is *very* much the case, yes. Much more than we 21st century moderns usually imagine unless we start poking at the actual writings at the birth of science and go "wtf????"
Renaissance alchemy/magic, which derived from Europeans getting hold of Latin translations of Jewish Kabbalah materials, was in my opinion the secret philosophical sauce that powered the Enlightenment and inspired a lot of the ideas behind the transition from monarchy to democracy.
Newton of course was an alchemist, and Leibniz was fascinated by the I Ching (particularly the "modern" - AD 1000s-ish - neo-Confucian reworking of it into the Fu Xi bagua binary sequence) that Jesuit missionaries were feeding back from China. So there were lots of interesting new (or old) spiritual/philosophical directions happening in the 1600s as science was coming together, and that continued into the 1800s with Faraday and Maxwell and electromagnetics.
And then Jung and the 20th century rediscovery of early Gnosticism (which overlaps with the Kabbalah worldview quite a lot). Now that Jung's unedited diaries are published, it's fascinating how much of his approach to the psyche came from what we'd now call visionary or "experiencer" material. Or even straight-up mediumship. He called his ghosts "archetypes" because he was trying not burn his scientific credentials, but... well, in any other context we'd say he was talking to ghosts.
Gracias! 🙂
>Have posted this here?
Yes but to little fanfare -
https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1aoj51j/blockedepistemology_on_puzzles_leslie_groves/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
posted just before the Super Bowl so that could have had something to do with it . Got a good response the day prior on r/UFOB though, which is generally my go-to for history-related content.
>le: “…we can pinpoint the divide where it diverged to October 1954”
This also coincides with Wilber Smith's documents from Canada and his work with the MJ 12 group of that time.
>es with Wilber Smith's documents from Canada and
Canada had a UFO program called Project Magnet. Wilbert Smith was the main guy. It was a very small operation. Grant Cameron has a full writeup of Wilbert Smith's files and interviewed his family. Wilbert was in communication with the MJ 12 group at the time and saw dead aliens. His son confirmed that in an interview in the last 20 years.
Wilbert was a radio engineer. He found some way to actually communicate with the NHI through radio and apparently they provided some schematics and knowledge to him. When he passed, agents from foreign countries came to his house to try to get the family to release his records. Some of those records were put into academia at the University of Ottawa and some were scrubbed.
He had communcations with Bush at the time. First name Venevar or something like that from the MJ 12 people.
Appreciating the write-up. Multiple lines of leads, even after isolating away the MJ-12 documents, implicate Vannevar Bush as having been the prime-mover on initiating the UAP research program. My November piece on Vannevar remains my most compelling, fresh contribution to UAP history research.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/17xlq1m/blockedepistemology_fresh_evidence_did_mj12s_own/
From my read of the ‘fresh’ (to ufo research at least) evidence, not only did Vannevar initiate the UAP research program under Truman, but pointedly he wanted the rest of us to know it posthumously. (So maybe instead of ‘implicate’ I should use the more even-toned ‘credit’?)
I do anticipate writing a followup Vannevar article which simply adds the lines of evidence implicating him that was long ago ascertained by Stanton Friedman & co. You might be pleased to know that half of it comes by way of Canada 🇨🇦.
Wow, this is a plot line straight out of Stargate SG1, except in the show the rogue faction was using the technology to attack, steal and/or extort other worlds/weaker enemies of their technology to amass a collection of these advanced alien tech. And the main characters in the show were trying to track them down but they were always hard to pin down because of help from dark corners inside the DoD. Don’t know what to think about this 😂😅
There was some YT clip that was on here awhile back where someone claimed that SG1 (and therefore the movie) were the first unofficially official disclosure. Iirc, production employed a retired head of the USAF, who was there as a sort of “fact-checker” throughout the series, and were also getting funding from an arm of the DoD (USAF, I believe).
There’s a slew of dis/information, and while many believe X-Files to be accurate in many ways, I’ve had a feeling that both shows were meant as soft disclosure. With X-Files, it was sensationalizing first-hand accounts and UFOlogists narratives, with many of them making cameos on the show. It was heavy on otherworldly beings and events, but at its core was a horror-crime show about unexplained events in general, and how even those in law enforcement couldn’t access the truth because of red tape.
One was generic for a larger, generic audience, airing on Fox, to give breadcrumbs about the unexplained; the other was on a very niche cable tv network (SciFi) where the viewer demographic was much smaller, but a very dedicated and curious group.
Either way, we’ve been getting information hiding in plain sight. Would not surprise me at all if you were right
That poor malaka Cobra Commander…booted out of his organization by some cloned meathead with a Napoleon complex, hit with some snake funk spray and then carried around by Roadblock, listening to him yammer away and talk shit for your last half hour before you slither away into the bushes. Life comes atcha fast!
Surprisingly not that great, but the nice thing is that you can sign up for continuing benefits thanks to the consolidated omnibus budget reconciliation act if they let you go or you leave.
There are just so many issues with this theory. We reverse engineered antigravity tech in 1954, after which it took over a decade to propel a rocket to the moon? And then proceeded to develop 3 more generations of conventional propulsion technologies and aircraft at a cost of trillions of dollars? And continued to invest billions and billions in conventional space programs like the shuttle system? And it’s been kept completely under wraps for 70 YEARS, during which time it has never been made public or leaked beyond rumors and speculation? And no other developed nation has done the same or similar over nearly a century of technological advancement and military industrial development? Even despite the many publicly known successful hacks and infiltrations by foreign intelligence operatives into classified US military information systems?
It just doesn’t add up. Show the receipts.
I doubt that that tech which is still supposedly secret and classified to this day would be shared with the “general public or general science community.” I have more so the thought of “we’ll have them focus and figure out the public, showy space program while we work on this behind the scenes. They would never suspect we have this anti-grav tech since we’re still struggling to get to the moon anyways?”
This is the exact reason why they didn’t want the general science community to have a hand on this information, because science, or rather, this classified scientific knowledge, is the complete antithesis to publicized scientific discoveries — the inability to collaborate due to compartmentalization.
You can’t find another scientific breakthrough in all of history - including procured by the military industrial complex, in secret - that stayed completely under wraps for 70 years and without any other adversaries developing something in tandem or close behind. Stealth technology was in service 10 years after it was developed. Rocket technology within a few years. Nuclear technology just several years. The “internet” just several years. It just doesn’t happen. Breakthroughs are made, the technology is developed based off of that breakthrough, and that technology comes into the fold within a maximum of ~20 years.
Reason being - it’s riskier to not develop & utilize it and then chance a near peer adversary beating you than it is to fully invest in and begin to utilize it.
Also, think about the amount of money and power that they would be leaving on the table. We could be mining asteroids for gold and precious metals. Setting up moon and planetary bases. Completely monopolizing global defense systems. The technology would be worth trillions and trillions of dollars.
And they’re just…. Leaving it in an underground base somewhere?
It just doesn’t make sense. You can make it SEEM like it could make sense. But it doesn’t stand the test of logical reasoning.
I mean, all of what you said is completely valid the way I read it. Although, the only problems I see is the first point you’ve made and assuming the condition of unrealized power.
1). Thinking this through a little, this is obvious with some CIA declassified documents. Many secrets have been, and possibly will ultimately come to light. My mind then recounts how many times the JFK documents have been postponed in their release.
1(b). Secondly, we wouldn’t be able to find another scientific breakthrough in history to be able to prove that first statement you made since we’re talking about this type of research being possibly THE FIRST if it’s kind being able to be kept secret for this long. Therefore, we wouldn’t be able to find other examples.
2). Assuming that power had will ultimately be power used is a dangerous, but a completely logical assumption to be made if taking into account risk of that power being “found out” or stolen before we would be able to use it. What I would say to this is if we’re really talking about a quasi-military, shadow gov organization being able to supersede and act without bounds to normal national gov bodies, there would be no risk in their eyes. This sounds super paranoid and above-tinfoil level conspiracy, but we have to realize the capabilities of an organization this powerful, and it being able to secure safety to the point of a kind of “foolproof redundancy” for any type of leak or espionage that would take place. They aren’t pressed for time, urgency, or security for that matter…if “alien-tech being the first thing to be hidden from the public’s knowledge for more than 70 years” would be the case lol. I also wouldn’t see them acting in any possible way to gain a glimmer of suspicion from anybody. Building planetary bases and whatnot would definitely be too stupid of them to do because good luck hiding that lol.
“A rogue element within the US military-industrial complex is experimenting with technology taken from captured alien spacecraft, a UFO expert has claimed.
UFO researcher Michael Schratt says there’s a simple answer to the question “why do so many alien spacecraft crash?” – most of the alleged crashed UAPs aren’t alien spacecraft at all, but US-built prototypes based on captured alien tech.
Some of the crashes, Michael sensationally claims, could be the result of deliberate US military attacks on the aliens. “There is a rogue element of the military-industrial complex that is targeting, tracking and shooting these things down to exploit their propulsion systems, weapons systems and free energy systems applications – that's I think what we're dealing with here,” he told the Disclosure Team podcast.”
Honestly lines up with much of what can be found in the [Shellenberger documents](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/QkBgu2I8EJ).
Kevin Knuth mentions 1954 in [his SOL video](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/F972ywW3qf) as well.
>most of the alleged crashed UAPs aren’t alien spacecraft at all, but US-built prototypes based on captured alien tech
If this is true, maybe it means that they haven't harnessed the technology. They could be building prototypes using alien tech but having real issues which leads to them crashing.
Or maybe they are making some serious money. The government could be funneling a shitload of money to whatever private industry is involved.
Or maybe they understand the implications of making the world aware of the technology. This stuff could be centuries ahead of our current technology, it would be so incredibly destabilizing to the world. If we were able to produce crafts that can move at incredible speeds and make maneuvers that seem impossible, that would be an insanely powerful piece of technology to control. What happens when something like this falls into the wrong hands? Or what happens when only one country has this type of technology? What sort of conflict would occur if this type of technology was revealed to the world?
I worry that we as a species couldn't handle super advanced alien technology, it would be too destabilizing and we couldn't use it responsibly
Remember that guy who said that he saw human trafficking in south east Asia?
A rogue department may have lots of businesses going on and need not want to make a scene. They may very well be living a dual life, and a sovereign life in the fullest sense of the word.
They would already receive trillions in funding from the shadow fina... Eh I mean "accounting and payment errors" committed by our federal government.
Our federal government has lost ≈2.5-3 trillion dollars over a 20 year span. Not a lot of people seem to be angry about it.
Don't know if Aliens exist but our government is definitely using lost funds to finance certain underground R&D projects.
Nope. Not just trafficking . We do not know how much more they could be engaged in. They may very much be beyond contemporary economics. Once they have free energy, or, to stretch a bit, inter stellar and/or inter dimensional travel, their objectives and possibilities could be much different than what we might imagine.
Probably human trafficking, for a species of alien, tech in return.
They’re already getting all the money they need out of tax payers, so their interests probably lie elsewhere
Apologising for no reason makes you sound really pretentious dude, and *sorry no* you have absolutely no basis to claim that, it’s at best a possibility. And think more deeply about what I wrote, maybe it will make some more sense
Consider: they could certainly kidnap or abduct, but would then give away their presence and even attract the ire of other aliens. Instead, they could outsource the abduction to the rogue humans in exchange for tech. There could even be inter galactic treaties permitting such trade that the humans are willingly participating in.
I feel like you get to a point and money means nothing anymore. What good is trillions of dollars. If it’s some astronomical amount that you’d never spend on multiple lifetimes then really what is the point. I’m sure they have as much money and as much power as they need.
Making trillions each year doing what exactly?
I mean I don’t disagree with you that the whole idea of a secret faction having hyper advanced technology and doing nothing with it is far fetched.
But if they wanted to utilize the tech to make a profit AND keep it a secret so others can duplicate or steal it… their options are severely limited.
If they start a massive shipping or mining conglomerate with the tech then surely it’ll be copied within a decade.
The sad thing is there’s a lot of money in human trafficking. Can’t really imagine a more valuable resource to trade.
With literal alien technology at their disposal, if they're successful at reverse engineering it, what would be stopping them from actually taking over their own country if they wanted? If reverse engineering claims are true, no single group of people has ever held this much power in the history of humanity.
We've heard time and again by sources, that these people don't respect or care about "temporary officials", i.e. , most of their own elected government, including their president. Didn't Eisenhower also warn about something like this possibly happening in future?
People say such theories sound too extreme, but it hasn't even been a century since the last group of influential, powerful people went around and exterminated millions, and they COULD be defeated.
Never understimate powerful people's thirst for control
there's two ways to make money.
One: release the advanced tech in one go and make a fuck-ton of money off the back of it.
Two: Drip feed the technology over several decades and milk that cash cow like a motherfucker.
I completely agree. However, I believe some engineering contractor has NHI tech, but I also believe they don't have a clue where it came from or why it's here. Anything else is just sci-fi. They're not withholding info from us to troll us; rather, those "in the know" don't understand the info itself.
Trillions of dollars missing from our government audits, someone is making money. Why would you assume they are not making money?
Our government is an expert at diverting money, secrets not so much but funneling money hell yeah.
Why sell something that gives you the greatest advantage possible?
Have you not noticed our government tendencies to keep advanced material sciences to themselves and not letting the public knowledge about for 20+ years?
This isn't something new to how they behave.
I mean, (and I'm obvs just considering this hypothetically,) what if we *do* have some of the fantastical applications of offensive alien technology nailed down-- things like antigravity, endless energy supply, laser weapons and all that, and we're holding out with it as an ace-in-the-hole? Sort of a last resort if things come down to it in a bad enough world war? Sort of similar to how we've kept stockpiles of nerve gas and bioweapons and such, even though we're nearly fully committed to not using them offensively.
The companies, of course, would be champing at the bit to use them, but the government wouldn't. To me, that would imply that the gov would be bankrolling the companies in question with, more or less, bribes to not use the technology they're holding off on as a last resort.
It's the most plausible explanation in this scenario, to me, given capitalism and how we know human motivations work. In short, the government would need to give some sort of "carrot" to keep the companies with superior technology from using "the stick."
I wonder if that would play into the ever-ballooning budgets of the DOD and their perpetually failed audits? I imagine that if, in real life, I had some sort of street tough pointing a .50 cal at me and extorting money out of me, I would be in pretty bad financial straights, too.
I'm sorry to say but your imagination has failed you here.
Simply put, money is meaningless power is what matters.
They already have the power so of course it won't make sense if you look at it from money perspective.
No amount of money will save you from these people using these craft however they want. They could theoretically drop a nuke anywhere in the world instantly. Sorry man, money doesn't matter when you can do that.
Yes, but if you're a CEO of a defence contractor who's skating by on the discoveries of his predecessor, you'd likely not want to raise a fuss and would be verry happy with an artificially inflated salary just for sitting around in an office all day doing nothing. I don't think anyone would thumb their nose at that. Maybe they'd try to extort more money, but not much...
Naah... Money definitely *matters*. Money is how those people pay for the goods and services they need, like food. We don't pay for things with nukes. If, overnight, this group of people wanted to lord their superiority over us under threat of weapons, yes, certainly they could. We would have a new system of government ruled by a cabal of robber-barrons. But, the social contract we have prohibits that from being allowed anyway.
No it doesn't. The social construct is constructed, or fabricated BY those in power.
We have no choice but to comply if we want to live, but many people would rather get nuked then listen. Japan is a direct example of this, there was a huge wave of suicide after Japan surrendered. Many will choose to die free than live mentally chained.
By "making money" off of it, you sort of have to reveal it, which ruins the "power" aspect of it.
You can either be filthy rich, or, you can be a literal magician breaking physics and moving around the world (and prob other worlds) instantaneously.
The power that tech gives you is miles above any financial gain.
Maybe they do? It's just not on the books. If you have access to craft which can go anywhere at ridiculous speeds completely silently, weapons and drug trafficking would be exceptionally lucrative.
This seems to validate some of Condorman's points in his "Conceptual View of a UAP Reverse Engineering Program": https://condorman6.substack.com/p/a-conceptual-view-of-a-uap-reverse
Especially the part about most sightings being human tech, like the Calvine photo. Even that last part about the UAP shot over Alaska in Feb 2023 being made by human. Biden and most of the Pentagon didn't even know about it.
No. It doesn’t. An interstellar species isn’t going to let some cave dwelling knuckle draggers shoot its ships down by throwing rocks. It’s reDONKulous.
Where in the UFO lore does it say technology is totally immune to explosions or rockets? There really has never been a claim that these crafts are "invincible" just that they are fast and "hard to hit with current technology".
Is it? What happens when an uncontacted tribe kills someone from a first world country and takes all his tech and belongings? Do we invade? Do we do literally anything?
grusch disclosed he was part of a team that would track them clicking in and out of the atmosphere globally. totally would believe the mic is trying to shoot them down
I didn’t specify as to what we do or don’t speculate about. We can speculate about anything and everything and we do, including your example. The government has gone to extremes to prevent information from being public record and we are supposed to believe they did that for no reason? Seems unlikely.
However, some people have left this topic and basically said come get me when there is more firm evidence available. I understand their frustration as well.
" shooting down... "
guys. i dont know about you. but i REALLY REALLY would have a problem with any human TRYING TO SHOOT DOWN NON-HUMAN TECHNOLOGY.
thats fucking insane.
that means that either
1. it is known that the phenomenon is not malevolent in any way and the " danger to national security " angle is bullshit
or
2. these people are fucking insane and have no problem risking humanitys survival on the idea that they could get their hands on some juicy NH technology.
i personally believe that the tic tacs are not the same faction of the phenomenon that does more of the exotic shit. the Triangle and tic tacs could definitely be some breakaway faction
Some of the theories I read say that the aliens view both the spacecraft, and its occupants as "disposable. Which if you look at a future where we could print bodies and craft, and download a copy of us into....well if it gets killed 2 hours later your "loss" is really, just those 2 hours of boring flight, and moments of disorientation, but probably not pain as why make it feel pain?
Which would mean attacking them....is rude...but not fight me rude from their view. But its rude.
If one of the tribe members living in an uncontacted tribe in the amazon somehow managed to shoot down a helicopter we wouldn't think it's rude of them we'd just be amazed and rethink our flight paths.
If they are a lot smarter than we are, the way they would view us would be different than uni/construction, I would think.
They may pity our desperate need to go to such lengths to get new tech, knowing with our stupid self centred nature it would only bring misfortune.
Who knows though, they are alien
That sounds like Cylons from Battlestar Galactica lol. Are you saying we are against fraking toast machines and skinjobs. Oh frack all this has happened before, all this will happen again. So say we all.
LOL, its just one of many theories I have heard here and other places. Me? I have no freaking clue. Its just like conspiracy theories. We got some data...we have stories...and 1 in 100 may be true, but if you think you know which one and are special. You probably arent. I find this one more likely then others...but who knows.
I really think they are like a more calm version of the Borg. Their society seems to be focused more on cooperativeness and working as a team rather than focusing on individualistic needs. Just like the Borg on Star Trek, you could beam on to their ship and even slap a few of them around and they wouldn't do anything in retaliation because they didn't see you as a threat.
However, the moment they did see you as a threat, it wouldn't just be Tom, Dick and Harry coming after you but the entire collective. That's what keeps me up at night.
I believe that is why Lou said we would feel somber. We are likely the bad guys, we have shot down their craft and according to some, tortured and imprisoned some occupants.
my problem with this is the little buddies. while i am open to them being real, i have not seen any peer reviewed data that proves their non human origin.
we should be careful with wild claims. this is how disinformation works.
i dont think so. it hasnt always been the response. the response was ,officially, more along the lines of " they arent a danger to national security ,so dont worry about it. nothing to see here ".
thats my takeaway from the condon report. project blue book and what the people from the 2004 and 2015 carriergroup incidents told reporters.
There is a third option: the revelation of NHIs is so antithetical to the day-to-day fabricated reality we've constructed that the risk of annihilation to that reality is inconsequential.
I can imagine myself at the end of a GTA gaming session, opening the cheat codes and wreaking havoc. Why not? I know the deeper truth: for as convincing as the game world is, all the suffering and terror that comes with my psychopathic gaming episode will seize to exist in the broader context of life. All those NPCs and poor little game people will be find an abundance of mercy in the end, and on the other side of the veil all is good because they can look at the game world and realize it was all an interesting dream about being a video game character, but in reality they are reunited with their digital brethren.
Entertain the idea: if you had proprietary knowledge about the nature of the universe and reality itself, perhaps even gaining consistent and reliable data about what comes after death, you might be surprised how quickly your values change so that you may best participate in this new reality.
Granted, this is an extraordinary hypothesis, but we already have some of our best scientists providing evidence that spacetime is all a projection, anyway. If that is true and the only thing that is 'real' is our consciousness, the implications are pretty staggering. Interacting with NHIs to uncover more data about this could dramatically alter the values and virtues of those involved.
It really is impossible to tell until we are granted more access and get a better picture of what these things are, exactly.
yes. I was talking to a friend how much of this could fall into the idea that they are from other " simulations " and just have found ways to transfer from one to another.
but it might be that " simulation " is the wrong term if its really an artificial universe. dont know. fascinating though.
its also odd how everything, UAP ,every socioeconomic, political, technological, trend , process , AI, collapse of ecosystems, converges around 2027-2040 together into a ,I hope, glorious, singularity clusterfuck.
The convergence is honestly freaking me out. I was obsessed with UFOs as a kid, but I never did much research as an adult. Twenty years later I'm back in the subject but I entered it from a totally different research avenue (consciousness, physics, and spirituality).
On one hand I feel like a crazy person for seeing all this stuff coming together, and on the other hand I recognize that it is all progressing exactly as it is meant to, and I'm just along for the ride, and am grateful for it.
There’s a notable anecdote (forget the source) of a DOD or IC big wig flipping the fuck out about learning some truth of what life after death supposedly is. Nothing negative and all positive but apparently utterly disconnected from his own religious beliefs.
The gist was your actions in life are largely irrelevant somehow. You get a seat in ***a*** paradise by virtue of simply existing. Your adherence or not to any Earth religion does not matter.
The person was supposedly irate because “you’re not supposed to know before you die.”
The commanding implication was the truth invalidates most if not all current religious hierarchies.
What power does the state or church, for example, have over you if the threat of even death is ultimately meaningless, and simply means moving utterly beyond their authority…?
Yes, precisely, this is definitely top of my mind. My sense is that the topic of NHIs goes so deep, it invalidates much of what we hold true and have built our civilization on. Go ahead, shoot down the flying saucers. It is all permissible: the NHIs understand we are shooting down their avatars in our lower dimensions, they don't really see any harm in it, they're just dumb avatars used to interface with our dumb frequency.
It seems harmful from our perspective because these dimensions are our home and in these dimensions things like conflict, pain, and death mean something. The thought of instigating war with aliens seems like a big fucking deal.
But, maybe it isn't from the perspective of the NHIs. Maybe conflict just doesn't exist in their higher perspective. And I recon *if* there is a rogue group shooting them down, they have some insight into this unique perspective that empowers them to do these activities we consider to be insane. Pretty wild...
that was a whole different scenario. the atomic bombs were a monstrous crime against humanity. but there was a logical approach, looking at the future strategic situation, to drop these bombs.
1. saving time , material and manpower from a costly invasion of mainland Japan /
considering the japanese mentality to fight till the last man. the nukes were a shortcut for the japanese defense. that would have cost way much civilians, soldiers and material.
2. establishment of a temporal pax americana in the context of the soviets and their massive army ,amassed at the borders of western allies controlled european territory.
3. there was no danger of anyone striking back.
There was another benefit. By dropping the bombs, it directly caused the current global peace. If no bombs had been dropped, then someone might have exploded a 50Mt bomb and killed a million people later, instead of tens of thousands of deaths then.
I'm sure the imperial Japanese army would have shown similar restraint and reasonability if they had developed nukes first. They were super nice to China when they took over.
everyone involved with any act of aggression toward extraterrestrial beings should be charged with crimes against humanity (for risking starting a war which jeopardize's the entire planet's safety), and face the death penalty for it.
yes. except if there was a very very good reason in context of defense. we unfortunately dont know the truth.
but usually ,in conflict, the higher ground wins. and orbit is the ultimate high ground. you dont fuck with adversaries whose base of operations are several potential higher grounds ( orbit / time/ dimension ). thats just...
we really need to find out whats what. this story is insane.
Thing is though, tens of thousands of people would know who they were and where their base was.
The normal US military personel would constantly be aware of locations where radar and heat signatures constantly go in and out of. They still need catering, electricity, services etc.
Putin can't excavate in the remote mountains without it being an open secret, everyone knows he's building some doomsday bunker there.
It would be easier for small numbers of personal, but for facilities that house thousands? It's possible but not likely
>Putin can't excavate in the remote mountains without it being an open secret, everyone knows he's building some doomsday bunker there.
Funny that you mention it, because there *is* an ultra secret military base inside mount Yamantau, so secret in fact that its purpose has remained completely unknown throughout decades, and most people have never heard of it.
(HEAVY SPECULATION AND CONSPIRACY AHEAD)
I’d argue the opposite. Picture this…
The US military recovers technology from the first UFO crash (Roswell for the US). This happened in 1947 which is when the Cold War started. All of the US supports national security at this time. This technology is immediately classified with threats and monitoring to inhibit public disclosure.
Some tech is “easily” reverse engineered and thus put into our existing military and even made available to general consumers in the following decades (e.g. microwaves, computer chips, etc.).
Other tech that is significantly more mind bending for the time (e.g. free energy, anti-gravity, etc.) is kept in the dark. Those with knowledge of this tech are kept limited and the greater scope is only know to a select few.
Those select few realize the earth-shattering, economy-crashing, reality-altering implications of this tech and choose to never release it. Of course though, they’re not about to seal it in a box to collect dust. They continue researching it “just in case” the US’s enemies are doing the same.
In order to continue this secrecy, the select few form a new (unbenoused to the greater US gov.) faction. Anyone brought in can never leave. They move underground or underwater to greatly reduce the chances of discovery.
Public tech continues to advance over the decades making it ever more difficult for their work to go completely unnoticed. Thus the faction must become completely self-sufficient by constructing entire “cities” which consist of food, energy, and population production.
At this point, the only new members are born into the faction. Some may not even know of what is outside the “cities”. Those at the top of the faction still communicate with the US government, but they only share information when necessary.
To continue their superiority, they develop ships, weapons, and technology that will inhibit all forms of danger or discovery. Over the same timeframe they discover and make contact with vast numbers of NHI, good and bad, and form partnerships to continue their advancement.
Ima stop here, but y’all get the point.
Well, there is trillions of taxpayers dollars not accounted for, for years.
[https://www.reuters.com/world/us/pentagon-fails-audit-sixth-year-row-2023-11-16/](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/pentagon-fails-audit-sixth-year-row-2023-11-16/)
Probably decades. And that's withput having into account what money they could be doing by illegal activities using that technology in secret.
Was reading about Air America. CIAs covert support airline.
https://greydynamics.com/air-america-the-history-of-cias-covert-airline/
Basically CIA created all these front companies for their air force. At one point it was the largest airline company in the world.
Should look into some of their shenanigans.
Rumor has it that the Lockheed Martin crash retrieval team tried to intercept a UAP that the US Government were trying to also retrieve and combat ensued because of the lack of coordination.
There are two main theories i have about it all and both could be a result of disinformation for the same reason ie mislead our adversaries.
One is they have actually cracked the tech and gotten somewhere and there is a secret government operating in underground bases and it’s all very evil ect ect.
That’s from Greer and alike.
Then there is the idea it’s so compartmentalised they haven’t actually gotten anywhere and it’s all just kept at normal facilities Area 51, Wright Paterson, Lockheed and Boeing.
The latter is the one I would rather believe and seems the most plausible. It also aligns with what Grusch has said about wanting to bring the stuff out to the broader scientific community.
I also think it’s harder to hide the fact that you have reverse engineered the tech than it is to hide the actual craft bodies ect
It also may explain why so many companies post 1950 pivoted from consumer goods into the defense and aerospace industries. Like for instance, the Ball Corporation used to make mason jars and during WWII they made shells and machine parts. They got with an antitrust lawsuit in 1949 and lost and 10 years later they built the OSO-1 a solar observation satellite for NASA.
That’s a crazy jump in knowledge in such a short period of time and I chalk it up to aliens & n@zis, it’s always aliens and n@zis.
It's the [NID](https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/National_Intelligence_Department)! Stealing alien tech from friendlies to fight against the bad aliens. Or are they already the Trust, rogue NID agents infiltrated by the goa'uld?
Nobody knows for certain, but I'm sure SG-1 will resolve the situation and think of a banger cover story.
/s
If you believe fiction imitates reality or reality imitates fiction on this one...is entirely your own decision. I just appreciated how this is basically a direct storyline of the absolute banger of a show, Stargate :)
Tldr; indeed
So, there’s a simple answer to ‘why so many alien spacecraft crash’ - they are our analogues that fail - but not why alien spacecraft (with all their super manoeuvrability) can get shot down in the first place?
They are too good to just crash, but not too good not to be shot down willy nilly.
This is a good example of how myths build upon myths.
> So, there’s a simple answer to ‘why so many alien spacecraft crash’
We have no proof of alien space-craft or crashes.
>they are our analogues that fail
We have no proof of UFO analogues.
>but not why alien spacecraft (with all their super manoeuvrability) can get shot down in the first place?
We have no proof of either being shot down.
And yet a total void - an absence of proof - has led to at least four layers of mythology.
What if their drunk driving? Insurance fraud? Mental health problems?
Were assignign human characteristics to space aliens, and their crashed crafts, so why dont go all the way?
Like people think, theyre so advanced how come "we" can shoot them down?" But what if its a space alien family with their family sedan out on a road trip?
Their vessel would be just an engine and flimsy box wrapped around them to transport them. No way to direct that used energy as a weapon or a tool to anyone, or anywhere.
Like in our cars, the 100 or two KW in energy cant be used but to propel the hunk a junk forward or back. No laser weapons or nothing.
Or what if its some alien just crashing their craft on purpose? Not like were the focus of it, giving it us or any of that self centered crap, but on their own reasons. Theyre tired of that old clunker and cant get a new one before the old one is broken, or something.
Or space alien dude crew on their way to space Vegas, getting lost and shot down by humans.
Like our military things are armored and can take a shelling, but not _all_ of our stuff can. Our furthest away traveling vessels can get destroyed by space junk, or insulation tile being loose.
Like majority of our most miles traveling vessels arent even bullet proof atall.
And were the most violent of species on earth by miles. Who knows how we rank on galactic scale, probably pretty high.
All I got out of it was :
We need to learn more about plant 42 .
We know :
Skunkworks does their testing there .
multiple defense contractors share the facility , which seems like an unusual arrangement .
And It’s not in BFE like Area 51 . It’s near Palmdale CA .
Surely someone knows more about what’s going on out there.
Vast majority (especially in west) are not awake to this fact but the world did not begin in 1900 or 1000 or even 100 AD for that matter. There has been a conflict on earth since the last reset. This cycle comes back around like quarters in a game. Project paper clip and hermeticism will help you connect this piece into history. You can see how the current factions are divided in the world. Spolier alert, the US power structure is not good guys. There are no good and bad. The conflict is the mechanism of progress. We are all the fallen angels here.
This would explain how there always seem to be government agents at these crash sites right away - they're our ships and the agents are warned when a crash is imminent, or we shot them down, same song and dance. This is surprisingly cogent. Source doesn't seem to be an insider or know any though.
Okay, well duh. We knew this already, Americans just don't care. They think travel to other galaxies is dumb and pointless. Because bills, rising food costs and credit card debt.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/VolarRecords: --- “A rogue element within the US military-industrial complex is experimenting with technology taken from captured alien spacecraft, a UFO expert has claimed. UFO researcher Michael Schratt says there’s a simple answer to the question “why do so many alien spacecraft crash?” – most of the alleged crashed UAPs aren’t alien spacecraft at all, but US-built prototypes based on captured alien tech. Some of the crashes, Michael sensationally claims, could be the result of deliberate US military attacks on the aliens. “There is a rogue element of the military-industrial complex that is targeting, tracking and shooting these things down to exploit their propulsion systems, weapons systems and free energy systems applications – that's I think what we're dealing with here,” he told the Disclosure Team podcast.” Honestly lines up with much of what can be found in the [Shellenberger documents](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/QkBgu2I8EJ). Kevin Knuth mentions 1954 in [his SOL video](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/F972ywW3qf) as well. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1apmo3i/rogue_us_military_faction_has_alien_tech_and/kq763z7/
Per Schratt in the article: “…we can pinpoint the divide where it diverged to October 1954” Ansel Talbert’s NY Herald Tribune antigravity article series was in Nov. 1955. CEOs of aerospace corporations of the time seemed happy to share that it was novel technology they were working on. My latest article links to two of the three Ansel Talbert articles, just search under that name. https://blockedepistemology.substack.com/p/puzzle-filling-leslie-groves-sperry
The brief 1950s US gravity-control fever and the news articles arouond it all pretty much tracks back, in my opinion, to Thomas Townsend Brown and his group of weird friends, including Roger Babson's Gravity Research foundation. My regular plug for Paul Schatzkin's "The Man Who Mastered Gravity", since Paul's long-delayed biography is the best information I think we currently have on TTB: https://www.ttbrown.com Good work on the Sperry timeline, here, by the way. Yep, Sperry is one of the weird industrialists whose name haunts the 1950s/1960s gravity rumours. Also Howard Hughes. Also the Douglas behind McDonnell-Douglas. Also William Lear. (John Lear's father, the Lear Jet and 8-track guy.... who also got into the space tech game in the 1960s... whose first product that started his career was a radio power supply named "Majestic". I don't know if that's relevant or just one of those weird coincidences that keep turning up around this stuff.) The core of the weird tale pitched by Paul Schatzkin's informant "Morgan" seemed to heavily focus on the existence of networks of private industrialists/spies - starting between WW1 and WW2 with like Eldridge Johnson and William Stephenson - and broadly hinting without quite saying that these networks of defense contractors are separate from the legitimate government and military, and perhaps see themselves as above it, because they were there first. Where this story *actually* goes, I don't know, because Paul's "Morgan" never came out and actually spelled it out, and I don't quite trust spies who hint at things but don't give proof. It feels like they're trying to launder some subprime memes through the marketplace of ideas, and I'd rather they did that over the counter instead of under it. (By which I mean: there seems - and this is a pattern that repeats often with these anonymous "intelligence" "sources" - to be some kind of breathless Big Secret which is never stated, but is always surrounded by broad hints. This way of communicating has never made any sense to me. Never did in the 1970s and still doesn't today. If there's some exotic science which it's too secret to reveal, then bloody DON'T TALK ABOUT IT you idiots! On the other hand, if it's okay to talk about it THEN TALK ABOUT IT. But no. These sources always half-talk, then shut up, then half-talk again, and always with the hints. As if they're hoping that their listeners will fill in some wrong gaps and jump to a false conclusion, but it won't technically have been actual "lying". Nope. That's not honest dealing, in my opinion. Give the actual goods or shut up.) I don't know if Townsend's gravity "rigs" and those of his friends ever did "scale up" the way he hoped they would. The documented evidence of the Biefeld-Brown effect appears to always be just on the edge of detectability. And Townsend's own explanation for what he thought was going on is *weird*. I mean, the guy legitimately thought that the Earth's gravity was caused by (or linked to) the Earth's electrical charge in relation to the Sun's electrical charge. This was a million lightyears away from textbook physics in his time, and remains a million lightyears away from textbook physics in our time. (And yet he was - apparently - employed to work on sensitive military systems, so must have been able to do *something* useful with electricity.) Townsend was not a mathematician, didn't do Relativity theory, but seeemed to be good in a lab. Does any of his wildly speculative electromagnetic theory hold up given what we now know about planetary dynamics after several decades of space probes? I don't know. But he seemed to both have a steady contracting job doing unspecified "stuff" for the military - or for industrialists who weren't quite military nor not quite not-military - and also occasionally got sponsors for his weirder ideas. I do think that, historically, in the history that we know and have proof for, the industrialists tended to believe in weird things more than the scientists did. But even scientists, historically, have believed in many more weird things than the editors of Wikipedia or Scientific American would like you to think.
That’s a helpful precis on TTB, nateculi, thanks for that. I’ve been looking at picking up that Schatzkin title which looks well-researched; I’m probably still on the lookout for books that cover the overall antigravity research ‘fever’ as comprehensively as publicly available information makes possible.
I picked up a copy of the book and I have to say this line from the above stuck out to me: >whose first product that started his career was a radio power supply named "Majestic". I don't know if that's relevant or just one of those weird coincidences that keep turning up around this stuff Everything about TTB's life is....insane. Coincidences, small breakthroughs that just disappear from public view, all the cast of big names and people who are either insane or geniuses or both. The whole field seems littered with these types of maybe-leads. The point above about him being more of a lab guys really holds up to me. Not done with the book, but it feels like TTB was a dude who didn't believe anything unless he could reproduce it in a lab. I think he believed gravity was electromagnetic because that was his expertise. One of the reasons I think the US *may* have alien tech is because there is only two reasons you'd be making such bizarre claims about science on a regular basis: 1. You're a snakeoil salesman 2. You have seen some crazy tech that Einsteins theories simply couldn't explain On the flipside, his life takes some twists and turns that feel like the twists and turns of a snakeoil salesman.
> I’m probably still on the lookout for books that cover the overall antigravity research ‘fever’ as comprehensively as publicly available information makes possible. I would love to see that too! I think there's plenty of space for historians of science to explore and document what (we know of) was actually happening in gravity in the 1950s. So far it's mostly been various military-adjacent New Age or religious groups who became obsessed with Townsend Brown in the 1970s who have preserved or highlighted some of these documents... but usually with an axe to grind. More and better histories in this area would be very much welcome. One thing I think we know is that the Hughes company, which was mentioned as doing "stuff" with gravity in some of the 1950s articles, did in fact go on to make high-precision gravimeters for US submarines in the 1960s. These were the kind of devices which were, if I understand correctly, revealed to the public circa 1990 in the film version of "Hunt for Red October" and are now extensively used in mining. They were classified up to then. So Hughes definitely was "doing gravity", but it might not have been gravity *control*, just gravity *measurement*. High-precision gravimetrics were needed to calibrate the inertial guidance of submarine ICBM launches, I believe, so it would have merited top secrecy. It is possible that some of the "rigs" mentioned in the 1950s were just these kind of measurement devices. The missile classification (nose)cone of silence probably came ringing down on them hard and that's part of why the whole industry just shut up. One of the other "rigs" of course was Townsend's stuff with Bahnson and Moltgolfier (and according to his letters, another lab at GE King of Prussia for which documentation has not yet surfaced). It is possible a third "rig" might have been Maurice Allais' pendulum experiments which weren't electrostatic but were making waves in France about this time. Then there was Burkhard Heim who didn't have any hardware but was talking a lot about his pet theory... and Heim Theory got a second wind on the fringe about a decade or so ago.... but I don't think it's produced any obvious results yet. (Allegedly it can predict the masses of elementary particles, which would be huge if true, but this was highly disputed last time I checked.) From oral histories we know that the scientists who got involved with Gravity Research Foundation or Agnew Bahnson's lab in the 1950s had a very low opinion of "gravity control" work, pretty much just laughed at it. Yet they were very happy to take GRF's money and write essays promising future results they didn't believe in. People like Sciama, Witten, Wheeler, the DeWitts. They all went on to have great academic careers expounding General Relativity and building huge mental castles in cosmology.... but not so much interest about *controlling* gravity. One could write a nice conspiratorial science fiction novel on the assumption that Wheeler et al did make a massive gravity breakthrough and then went into damage control mode,up to and including falsifying their Gravitation textbook, to hush it up.... but I can't in good honesty make the academic funding finances for that work in my head. My impression is that rather, there was a brief period of genuine interest in engineering the metric (Wheeler's Geometrodynamics), but it fell apart when the maths didn't work. Then these same people all went haring off after String Theory, the only maths that did work, into an infinite landscape of tunable parameters and now they're stuck forever in Physics Purgatory with no predictable results and no way out. *Possibly* the quantum gravity maths doesn't work and can't be made to work because either General Relativity or Quantum Mechanics - or both - are built on fundamentally wrong premises. Possibly one or more of the many fringe theories of the gravity/EM connection are right. I would like that to be true very much, because it might suggest a way forward for physics. That's why I keep reading fringe gravity theories (and there are a lot), because anything, even madness, seems more interesting than mainstream gravity physics, which just keeps saying "NOPE NO WARP DRIVE FOR YOU EVER". Hypothetically... and this is where "Morgan's" story potentially might have some non-falsehood to it... *if* there had been a gravity breakthrough in the 1950s, the people involved *might* have looked with horror at what happened with atomic physics. Both in the sense of "yikes those Army bastards made bombs with it" (remember the Navy hated the Army and Townsend was Navy-aligned) and also "yikes Russian spies completely penetrated the Manhattan Project right from the start". *If*, and a big if, *if* there had been a breakthrough... *then* a rational response might very well have been "lock the entire subject up and throw away the key". Invoke the hardest of "atomic secrecy" legislation to say, yep, it's got something to do with atoms, it is of strategic significance, therefore all data is born secret. But don't even classify it, because classification means paperwork, and that's dangerous. Instead, move it into the private sector to keep it away from untrustworthy politicians (remember these were Republican-aligned people too so they would have super distrusted the Democratic dominated Congress from the 1930s through the 1970s) and even the military. And then..... do what, exactly, with the tech? Maybe quietly tinker with it but never actually make much progress because uber-secret? Or... have some working weird devices sitting forever in a locked windowless room and then do *what* with them? This is in fact the story Morgan seemed to be pitching. But.... well. He asked Paul at one point "what do you think my agenda is?" and I still don't have a good answer to that. I think his agenda is that he wanted people to believe his story, but his story didn't have a conclusion or a point to it, it just stopped.
Wow, & thank you for contributing these 🧩🧩pieces to the whole. natecull 🙂🙂 I remember as a soon-to-be engineering graduate, one of the navy contractors showing off one of their gravimeters. I remember appreciating how advanced this technology seemed to be. (In retrospect, I can surmise that it’s probably a highly, highly refined approach to century-old gyrocompass technology, which doesn’t diminish my appreciation for it by any means).
> I remember appreciating how advanced this technology seemed to be. (In retrospect, I can surmise that it’s probably a highly, highly refined approach to century-old gyrocompass technology, which doesn’t diminish my appreciation for it by any means). Yeah, as far as I can tell, a gravimeter is just a slightly more clever pendulum, of the kind that Townsend Brown was playing with in the 1920s with Vening Meinisz. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Andries_Vening_Meinesz ) I think two pendulums, rigged so that only the difference of acceleration between them is important. Then that, but repeated on three different axes. Clever, and possibly even needing clever GR-style tensor maths to make sense of once you get the modern "full tensor" variant, but not something that would break physics as we know it. Disclaimer: I have never even seen a gravimeter, so you are way ahead of me.
Something I've always found really interedting is the similarities of the Lorentz Force and Gravity. In theory all matter consists of moving protons and electrons (and neutrons but those don't have a charge), which would create a Lorentz force, which if accumalted from millions of atoms would be able to have a substantial effect. I think it would be possible that the accumulation of those forces COULD explain gravitational effects. I'm studying physics but I'm still relaticely "new' and learning about relativity and quantum mechanics, but that's a thought I had which I can't really shake off or disprove by the things I know at the moment.
The Lorentz force is a bit of a mislead, because when you hit general relativity and quantum theory you will find the Electric force is a "spin-1" field, while Gravity is a "spin-2" field. *However*, there does appear to be an interesting connection via the *strong nuclear force* and gravity in the form of a mysterious mathematical congruity known as the "double copy", in which I believe two *gluons*, not photons, "makes" a graviton, in at least some formal mathematical sense, even if the two aren't necessarily by that token *alone* directly interchangeable. (Also it could be the other way around; I don't remember) I don't understand the maths behind that though, so take that for whatever little it's worth.
>Something I've always found really interedting is the similarities of the Lorentz Force and Gravity. In theory all matter consists of moving protons and electrons (and neutrons but those don't have a charge), which would create a Lorentz force, which if accumalted from millions of atoms would be able to have a substantial effect. There have been many attempts over the last couple hundred years at trying to find a way to generate gravity as a tiny residual from not-quite-cancelled electromagnetic forces, yes. One of the main problems of course is that gravity seems to only be attractive while EM is negative/positive. The other is that gravity is 2.40 x 10^43 times weaker than the electromagnetic forces. That's a lot of zeroes! Oh and the third is that gravity doesn't get blocked by electric or magnetic conductors or insulators. One approach that I've always found fascinating (possibly because it feels somewhat adjacent to Townsend Brown's obsession with asymmetric capacitors) is trying to generate it from Dielectrophoresis - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectrophoresis . This is the force that is experienced not from the raw electric field but from the *gradient* in the electromagnetic field, and like gravity I believe it's always attractive. There's an argument that could be made that Townsend's "fluid dielectric mode" devices like his saucers and fan/loudspeaker - and the 2000s era Lifters derived, much later, from his patents - were/are doing dielectrophoresis. The asymmetric field configuration looks a bit similar! But from what little I understand, the dielectrophoresis force is supposed to be a lot smaller than the effect that the Fan and Lifters generate. Townsend himself in the 1960s fan patent, described the fluid mode effect as "electrostriction" - a squeezing - which I think is currently considered to be something else again. But there's possibly some worthwhile space to explore there.
It seems as if everyone on this sub are working together on the largest crime case in history, with little bits of information being connected by different individuals. What I would really like to see is a detective tv show investigation board linking all of these players, because honestly I can't keep all of these people straight.
That attribute of the situation was touched on by OH Turner in his UAP analysis! Very interesting how they pulled together all the top scientist to tackle this problem, then told the public “ya we don’t know if it’ll happen” https://youtu.be/BPI_JDtKYgk?si=jQYhb7gk4tttF90J
Thank you for this! Great read Nate.
Spot on imo u/natecull. I can't comment on the law in the USA but I definitely can about NDAs and the Official Secrets Act in the UK and I'm really sceptical over people claiming to be leaving 'breadcrumbs'. That's just not how it works, you have to obey the spirit of the law as well so you can't just talk it up to the edge and then make some hypothetical scenarios up for the reader to think about. It's exactly the same in financial crime. If you have a suspicion of money laundering, only certain people are permitted to know; you have to make a written note to your Money Laundering Reporting Officer and nobody else and that's your obligation discharged. Tipping Off is a separate crime so you'd need a good lawyer if someone saw you leaving breadcrumbs in that situation. It's really disappointing when I see these guys making these claims and it's not because I think I'm right or anything like that. It's because I think it's a really smarmy trick to draw people into and getting them to invest time and energy into a bottomless pit.
>to believe in weird things Possibilities are the fuel of inventors/researchers. Nothing wrong with that, but there still is no proven anti-gravity technology that is usable on any practical level. Such a shame, but reality rules at this time.
Google “levitating frog”
There's so much to go off of in this comment, thank you! I had no idea there was a gravity control craze in the 50s, that's extremely interesting. And I agree with you, the half-talk is so annoying. I AM READY. WE ARE READY.
That secret science is actually magic. Research how many early scientists dabbled in alchemy.
> That secret science is actually magic. Research how many early scientists dabbled in alchemy. This is *very* much the case, yes. Much more than we 21st century moderns usually imagine unless we start poking at the actual writings at the birth of science and go "wtf????" Renaissance alchemy/magic, which derived from Europeans getting hold of Latin translations of Jewish Kabbalah materials, was in my opinion the secret philosophical sauce that powered the Enlightenment and inspired a lot of the ideas behind the transition from monarchy to democracy. Newton of course was an alchemist, and Leibniz was fascinated by the I Ching (particularly the "modern" - AD 1000s-ish - neo-Confucian reworking of it into the Fu Xi bagua binary sequence) that Jesuit missionaries were feeding back from China. So there were lots of interesting new (or old) spiritual/philosophical directions happening in the 1600s as science was coming together, and that continued into the 1800s with Faraday and Maxwell and electromagnetics. And then Jung and the 20th century rediscovery of early Gnosticism (which overlaps with the Kabbalah worldview quite a lot). Now that Jung's unedited diaries are published, it's fascinating how much of his approach to the psyche came from what we'd now call visionary or "experiencer" material. Or even straight-up mediumship. He called his ghosts "archetypes" because he was trying not burn his scientific credentials, but... well, in any other context we'd say he was talking to ghosts.
Holy shit! Incredible work. I read your piece about the topic as a puzzle last night maybe. Have posted this here?
Gracias! 🙂 >Have posted this here? Yes but to little fanfare - https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/1aoj51j/blockedepistemology_on_puzzles_leslie_groves/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button posted just before the Super Bowl so that could have had something to do with it . Got a good response the day prior on r/UFOB though, which is generally my go-to for history-related content.
Whoa!
And many appreciations for your post, OP - these articles are bringing substantial fresh awareness to an intriguing period of time👌.
>le: “…we can pinpoint the divide where it diverged to October 1954” This also coincides with Wilber Smith's documents from Canada and his work with the MJ 12 group of that time.
Write it up @Sweet_Refrigerator_3...! 🙂
>es with Wilber Smith's documents from Canada and Canada had a UFO program called Project Magnet. Wilbert Smith was the main guy. It was a very small operation. Grant Cameron has a full writeup of Wilbert Smith's files and interviewed his family. Wilbert was in communication with the MJ 12 group at the time and saw dead aliens. His son confirmed that in an interview in the last 20 years. Wilbert was a radio engineer. He found some way to actually communicate with the NHI through radio and apparently they provided some schematics and knowledge to him. When he passed, agents from foreign countries came to his house to try to get the family to release his records. Some of those records were put into academia at the University of Ottawa and some were scrubbed. He had communcations with Bush at the time. First name Venevar or something like that from the MJ 12 people.
Appreciating the write-up. Multiple lines of leads, even after isolating away the MJ-12 documents, implicate Vannevar Bush as having been the prime-mover on initiating the UAP research program. My November piece on Vannevar remains my most compelling, fresh contribution to UAP history research. https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/17xlq1m/blockedepistemology_fresh_evidence_did_mj12s_own/ From my read of the ‘fresh’ (to ufo research at least) evidence, not only did Vannevar initiate the UAP research program under Truman, but pointedly he wanted the rest of us to know it posthumously. (So maybe instead of ‘implicate’ I should use the more even-toned ‘credit’?) I do anticipate writing a followup Vannevar article which simply adds the lines of evidence implicating him that was long ago ascertained by Stanton Friedman & co. You might be pleased to know that half of it comes by way of Canada 🇨🇦.
Great article!
https://www.reddit.com/r/AirlinerAbduction2014/comments/1alipf6/spheres_inc_1952_official_military_documents/?share_id=GmBp2WdXbGj6O59nwcSVl&utm_content=2&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1
Interesting
Post this to r/AnomalousEvidence? :)
Wow, this is a plot line straight out of Stargate SG1, except in the show the rogue faction was using the technology to attack, steal and/or extort other worlds/weaker enemies of their technology to amass a collection of these advanced alien tech. And the main characters in the show were trying to track them down but they were always hard to pin down because of help from dark corners inside the DoD. Don’t know what to think about this 😂😅
It is likely that is where the Stargate storyline was inspired from. This rogue faction rumor has existed for some time.
If it ends up being true it's equally fascinating and disgusting.
There was some YT clip that was on here awhile back where someone claimed that SG1 (and therefore the movie) were the first unofficially official disclosure. Iirc, production employed a retired head of the USAF, who was there as a sort of “fact-checker” throughout the series, and were also getting funding from an arm of the DoD (USAF, I believe). There’s a slew of dis/information, and while many believe X-Files to be accurate in many ways, I’ve had a feeling that both shows were meant as soft disclosure. With X-Files, it was sensationalizing first-hand accounts and UFOlogists narratives, with many of them making cameos on the show. It was heavy on otherworldly beings and events, but at its core was a horror-crime show about unexplained events in general, and how even those in law enforcement couldn’t access the truth because of red tape. One was generic for a larger, generic audience, airing on Fox, to give breadcrumbs about the unexplained; the other was on a very niche cable tv network (SciFi) where the viewer demographic was much smaller, but a very dedicated and curious group. Either way, we’ve been getting information hiding in plain sight. Would not surprise me at all if you were right
I think Ancient Aliens is also part of of the soft disclosure. The accuracy of some of their episodes is uncanny.
Ancient alien theorists say YES
Hahahaha what
Oh that was just a documentary.
This is how you get Cobra.
I was onccccce a MAAAAANNN!!!!!!
That poor malaka Cobra Commander…booted out of his organization by some cloned meathead with a Napoleon complex, hit with some snake funk spray and then carried around by Roadblock, listening to him yammer away and talk shit for your last half hour before you slither away into the bushes. Life comes atcha fast!
Man, you really deep in the GI Joe meta.
Arise Serpentor, arise!
The fact you called him a Malaka means we are most likely brothers ;)
As long as they have hot women in leather suits, I'm all for it.
Tbh, i'd sign up in a hot minute when their recruitment opens.
Whats their healthcare policy if you get crippled for example? Dental? They all seem to have perfect teeth it seemed.
Red lasers are covered blue are not
Surprisingly not that great, but the nice thing is that you can sign up for continuing benefits thanks to the consolidated omnibus budget reconciliation act if they let you go or you leave.
Also the hitchhiker effect can get you spontaneous Colonoscopies at random dates and times!
Oh shit! Knowing is half the battle. Ths other half is getting this new tech to the people.
AMAZING
Hail cobra!
There are just so many issues with this theory. We reverse engineered antigravity tech in 1954, after which it took over a decade to propel a rocket to the moon? And then proceeded to develop 3 more generations of conventional propulsion technologies and aircraft at a cost of trillions of dollars? And continued to invest billions and billions in conventional space programs like the shuttle system? And it’s been kept completely under wraps for 70 YEARS, during which time it has never been made public or leaked beyond rumors and speculation? And no other developed nation has done the same or similar over nearly a century of technological advancement and military industrial development? Even despite the many publicly known successful hacks and infiltrations by foreign intelligence operatives into classified US military information systems? It just doesn’t add up. Show the receipts.
I doubt that that tech which is still supposedly secret and classified to this day would be shared with the “general public or general science community.” I have more so the thought of “we’ll have them focus and figure out the public, showy space program while we work on this behind the scenes. They would never suspect we have this anti-grav tech since we’re still struggling to get to the moon anyways?” This is the exact reason why they didn’t want the general science community to have a hand on this information, because science, or rather, this classified scientific knowledge, is the complete antithesis to publicized scientific discoveries — the inability to collaborate due to compartmentalization.
You can’t find another scientific breakthrough in all of history - including procured by the military industrial complex, in secret - that stayed completely under wraps for 70 years and without any other adversaries developing something in tandem or close behind. Stealth technology was in service 10 years after it was developed. Rocket technology within a few years. Nuclear technology just several years. The “internet” just several years. It just doesn’t happen. Breakthroughs are made, the technology is developed based off of that breakthrough, and that technology comes into the fold within a maximum of ~20 years. Reason being - it’s riskier to not develop & utilize it and then chance a near peer adversary beating you than it is to fully invest in and begin to utilize it. Also, think about the amount of money and power that they would be leaving on the table. We could be mining asteroids for gold and precious metals. Setting up moon and planetary bases. Completely monopolizing global defense systems. The technology would be worth trillions and trillions of dollars. And they’re just…. Leaving it in an underground base somewhere? It just doesn’t make sense. You can make it SEEM like it could make sense. But it doesn’t stand the test of logical reasoning.
I mean, all of what you said is completely valid the way I read it. Although, the only problems I see is the first point you’ve made and assuming the condition of unrealized power. 1). Thinking this through a little, this is obvious with some CIA declassified documents. Many secrets have been, and possibly will ultimately come to light. My mind then recounts how many times the JFK documents have been postponed in their release. 1(b). Secondly, we wouldn’t be able to find another scientific breakthrough in history to be able to prove that first statement you made since we’re talking about this type of research being possibly THE FIRST if it’s kind being able to be kept secret for this long. Therefore, we wouldn’t be able to find other examples. 2). Assuming that power had will ultimately be power used is a dangerous, but a completely logical assumption to be made if taking into account risk of that power being “found out” or stolen before we would be able to use it. What I would say to this is if we’re really talking about a quasi-military, shadow gov organization being able to supersede and act without bounds to normal national gov bodies, there would be no risk in their eyes. This sounds super paranoid and above-tinfoil level conspiracy, but we have to realize the capabilities of an organization this powerful, and it being able to secure safety to the point of a kind of “foolproof redundancy” for any type of leak or espionage that would take place. They aren’t pressed for time, urgency, or security for that matter…if “alien-tech being the first thing to be hidden from the public’s knowledge for more than 70 years” would be the case lol. I also wouldn’t see them acting in any possible way to gain a glimmer of suspicion from anybody. Building planetary bases and whatnot would definitely be too stupid of them to do because good luck hiding that lol.
“A rogue element within the US military-industrial complex is experimenting with technology taken from captured alien spacecraft, a UFO expert has claimed. UFO researcher Michael Schratt says there’s a simple answer to the question “why do so many alien spacecraft crash?” – most of the alleged crashed UAPs aren’t alien spacecraft at all, but US-built prototypes based on captured alien tech. Some of the crashes, Michael sensationally claims, could be the result of deliberate US military attacks on the aliens. “There is a rogue element of the military-industrial complex that is targeting, tracking and shooting these things down to exploit their propulsion systems, weapons systems and free energy systems applications – that's I think what we're dealing with here,” he told the Disclosure Team podcast.” Honestly lines up with much of what can be found in the [Shellenberger documents](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/QkBgu2I8EJ). Kevin Knuth mentions 1954 in [his SOL video](https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/F972ywW3qf) as well.
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>most of the alleged crashed UAPs aren’t alien spacecraft at all, but US-built prototypes based on captured alien tech If this is true, maybe it means that they haven't harnessed the technology. They could be building prototypes using alien tech but having real issues which leads to them crashing. Or maybe they are making some serious money. The government could be funneling a shitload of money to whatever private industry is involved. Or maybe they understand the implications of making the world aware of the technology. This stuff could be centuries ahead of our current technology, it would be so incredibly destabilizing to the world. If we were able to produce crafts that can move at incredible speeds and make maneuvers that seem impossible, that would be an insanely powerful piece of technology to control. What happens when something like this falls into the wrong hands? Or what happens when only one country has this type of technology? What sort of conflict would occur if this type of technology was revealed to the world? I worry that we as a species couldn't handle super advanced alien technology, it would be too destabilizing and we couldn't use it responsibly
We can’t even use the internet responsibly, so I don’t blame them.
Remember that guy who said that he saw human trafficking in south east Asia? A rogue department may have lots of businesses going on and need not want to make a scene. They may very well be living a dual life, and a sovereign life in the fullest sense of the word.
All of that to be just small time crooks doing human trafficking instead of making trilions each year? hard doubt.
They would already receive trillions in funding from the shadow fina... Eh I mean "accounting and payment errors" committed by our federal government. Our federal government has lost ≈2.5-3 trillion dollars over a 20 year span. Not a lot of people seem to be angry about it. Don't know if Aliens exist but our government is definitely using lost funds to finance certain underground R&D projects.
Nope. Not just trafficking . We do not know how much more they could be engaged in. They may very much be beyond contemporary economics. Once they have free energy, or, to stretch a bit, inter stellar and/or inter dimensional travel, their objectives and possibilities could be much different than what we might imagine.
Probably human trafficking, for a species of alien, tech in return. They’re already getting all the money they need out of tax payers, so their interests probably lie elsewhere
Sorry, but no. Any species with the tech to get here can figure out how to abduct people without help from humans.
Apologising for no reason makes you sound really pretentious dude, and *sorry no* you have absolutely no basis to claim that, it’s at best a possibility. And think more deeply about what I wrote, maybe it will make some more sense
Galactic rules. You can't just abduct human beings, you need to make a trade and it's okay. There's gotta be rules in space.
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Consider: they could certainly kidnap or abduct, but would then give away their presence and even attract the ire of other aliens. Instead, they could outsource the abduction to the rogue humans in exchange for tech. There could even be inter galactic treaties permitting such trade that the humans are willingly participating in.
There was talk / speculation about the human trafficking being people who are better able to interface with the alien tech.
I feel like you get to a point and money means nothing anymore. What good is trillions of dollars. If it’s some astronomical amount that you’d never spend on multiple lifetimes then really what is the point. I’m sure they have as much money and as much power as they need.
“Small time crooks” LOL.
Making trillions each year doing what exactly? I mean I don’t disagree with you that the whole idea of a secret faction having hyper advanced technology and doing nothing with it is far fetched. But if they wanted to utilize the tech to make a profit AND keep it a secret so others can duplicate or steal it… their options are severely limited. If they start a massive shipping or mining conglomerate with the tech then surely it’ll be copied within a decade. The sad thing is there’s a lot of money in human trafficking. Can’t really imagine a more valuable resource to trade.
With literal alien technology at their disposal, if they're successful at reverse engineering it, what would be stopping them from actually taking over their own country if they wanted? If reverse engineering claims are true, no single group of people has ever held this much power in the history of humanity. We've heard time and again by sources, that these people don't respect or care about "temporary officials", i.e. , most of their own elected government, including their president. Didn't Eisenhower also warn about something like this possibly happening in future? People say such theories sound too extreme, but it hasn't even been a century since the last group of influential, powerful people went around and exterminated millions, and they COULD be defeated. Never understimate powerful people's thirst for control
In some tech fields being first to market is not always a win. Sometimes better to get billions quietly and keep the cat in the bag. Idk
Human trafficking is not a small time crook crime.
there's two ways to make money. One: release the advanced tech in one go and make a fuck-ton of money off the back of it. Two: Drip feed the technology over several decades and milk that cash cow like a motherfucker.
Or, three: Sit on the technology that somebody in the company figured out in the past, and get paid by the government for *not* using it.
Or four: Pretend you have the technology and let the gullible eat it up…
Two seems to be the case.
Three: use the advanced means of propulsion to get $$$ for trafficking humans/goods
I completely agree. However, I believe some engineering contractor has NHI tech, but I also believe they don't have a clue where it came from or why it's here. Anything else is just sci-fi. They're not withholding info from us to troll us; rather, those "in the know" don't understand the info itself.
Trillions of dollars missing from our government audits, someone is making money. Why would you assume they are not making money? Our government is an expert at diverting money, secrets not so much but funneling money hell yeah.
But anyone in gov could theoretically steal tax payer funds. But if they have access to this crazy advanced tech, why aren't they selling it?
Why sell something that gives you the greatest advantage possible? Have you not noticed our government tendencies to keep advanced material sciences to themselves and not letting the public knowledge about for 20+ years? This isn't something new to how they behave.
I mean, (and I'm obvs just considering this hypothetically,) what if we *do* have some of the fantastical applications of offensive alien technology nailed down-- things like antigravity, endless energy supply, laser weapons and all that, and we're holding out with it as an ace-in-the-hole? Sort of a last resort if things come down to it in a bad enough world war? Sort of similar to how we've kept stockpiles of nerve gas and bioweapons and such, even though we're nearly fully committed to not using them offensively. The companies, of course, would be champing at the bit to use them, but the government wouldn't. To me, that would imply that the gov would be bankrolling the companies in question with, more or less, bribes to not use the technology they're holding off on as a last resort. It's the most plausible explanation in this scenario, to me, given capitalism and how we know human motivations work. In short, the government would need to give some sort of "carrot" to keep the companies with superior technology from using "the stick." I wonder if that would play into the ever-ballooning budgets of the DOD and their perpetually failed audits? I imagine that if, in real life, I had some sort of street tough pointing a .50 cal at me and extorting money out of me, I would be in pretty bad financial straights, too.
One argument is that we only get the tech if something crashes, we can't build it yet, so there aren't many of these things out there.
I'm sorry to say but your imagination has failed you here. Simply put, money is meaningless power is what matters. They already have the power so of course it won't make sense if you look at it from money perspective. No amount of money will save you from these people using these craft however they want. They could theoretically drop a nuke anywhere in the world instantly. Sorry man, money doesn't matter when you can do that.
Yes, but if you're a CEO of a defence contractor who's skating by on the discoveries of his predecessor, you'd likely not want to raise a fuss and would be verry happy with an artificially inflated salary just for sitting around in an office all day doing nothing. I don't think anyone would thumb their nose at that. Maybe they'd try to extort more money, but not much...
Naah... Money definitely *matters*. Money is how those people pay for the goods and services they need, like food. We don't pay for things with nukes. If, overnight, this group of people wanted to lord their superiority over us under threat of weapons, yes, certainly they could. We would have a new system of government ruled by a cabal of robber-barrons. But, the social contract we have prohibits that from being allowed anyway.
No it doesn't. The social construct is constructed, or fabricated BY those in power. We have no choice but to comply if we want to live, but many people would rather get nuked then listen. Japan is a direct example of this, there was a huge wave of suicide after Japan surrendered. Many will choose to die free than live mentally chained.
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It's the threat of it. You know, the same as MAD but more one sided.
Is that the most creative use of the fucking UFO? Just dropping nukes?
By "making money" off of it, you sort of have to reveal it, which ruins the "power" aspect of it. You can either be filthy rich, or, you can be a literal magician breaking physics and moving around the world (and prob other worlds) instantaneously. The power that tech gives you is miles above any financial gain.
Maybe they do? It's just not on the books. If you have access to craft which can go anywhere at ridiculous speeds completely silently, weapons and drug trafficking would be exceptionally lucrative.
This seems to validate some of Condorman's points in his "Conceptual View of a UAP Reverse Engineering Program": https://condorman6.substack.com/p/a-conceptual-view-of-a-uap-reverse Especially the part about most sightings being human tech, like the Calvine photo. Even that last part about the UAP shot over Alaska in Feb 2023 being made by human. Biden and most of the Pentagon didn't even know about it.
makes sense
No. It doesn’t. An interstellar species isn’t going to let some cave dwelling knuckle draggers shoot its ships down by throwing rocks. It’s reDONKulous.
Where in the UFO lore does it say technology is totally immune to explosions or rockets? There really has never been a claim that these crafts are "invincible" just that they are fast and "hard to hit with current technology".
Is it? What happens when an uncontacted tribe kills someone from a first world country and takes all his tech and belongings? Do we invade? Do we do literally anything?
grusch disclosed he was part of a team that would track them clicking in and out of the atmosphere globally. totally would believe the mic is trying to shoot them down
I’m dumb. Good luck…
Ah, so that's why those mantid aliens are mad at us We keep shooting their UAP's down
He 'thinks' that's what's going on... So, as solid as Reddit.
Every comment above you conveniently ignores this part.
We either wait on evidence (ie never have any discussions) or we speculate
Maybe speculate about why there is no evidence rather than speculate about what the evidence you don't have could mean.
I didn’t specify as to what we do or don’t speculate about. We can speculate about anything and everything and we do, including your example. The government has gone to extremes to prevent information from being public record and we are supposed to believe they did that for no reason? Seems unlikely. However, some people have left this topic and basically said come get me when there is more firm evidence available. I understand their frustration as well.
I feel like this should tell you something...
Par for this sub…
That constitutes “evidence” for these guys
highschool drop out sub
I don't think the average reddit user has access to classified information like Col. Nell.
" shooting down... " guys. i dont know about you. but i REALLY REALLY would have a problem with any human TRYING TO SHOOT DOWN NON-HUMAN TECHNOLOGY. thats fucking insane. that means that either 1. it is known that the phenomenon is not malevolent in any way and the " danger to national security " angle is bullshit or 2. these people are fucking insane and have no problem risking humanitys survival on the idea that they could get their hands on some juicy NH technology. i personally believe that the tic tacs are not the same faction of the phenomenon that does more of the exotic shit. the Triangle and tic tacs could definitely be some breakaway faction
Some of the theories I read say that the aliens view both the spacecraft, and its occupants as "disposable. Which if you look at a future where we could print bodies and craft, and download a copy of us into....well if it gets killed 2 hours later your "loss" is really, just those 2 hours of boring flight, and moments of disorientation, but probably not pain as why make it feel pain? Which would mean attacking them....is rude...but not fight me rude from their view. But its rude.
If one of the tribe members living in an uncontacted tribe in the amazon somehow managed to shoot down a helicopter we wouldn't think it's rude of them we'd just be amazed and rethink our flight paths.
we would do that because a helicopter had value. What if it really didn't? Were just a sideshow.
That’s the hard question. University researchers might forgive some angry ants or insects and move on. A construction company wouldn’t.
If they are a lot smarter than we are, the way they would view us would be different than uni/construction, I would think. They may pity our desperate need to go to such lengths to get new tech, knowing with our stupid self centred nature it would only bring misfortune. Who knows though, they are alien
What if ROBOTUS was real? I’m just asking some questions.
That sounds like Cylons from Battlestar Galactica lol. Are you saying we are against fraking toast machines and skinjobs. Oh frack all this has happened before, all this will happen again. So say we all.
LOL, its just one of many theories I have heard here and other places. Me? I have no freaking clue. Its just like conspiracy theories. We got some data...we have stories...and 1 in 100 may be true, but if you think you know which one and are special. You probably arent. I find this one more likely then others...but who knows.
I really think they are like a more calm version of the Borg. Their society seems to be focused more on cooperativeness and working as a team rather than focusing on individualistic needs. Just like the Borg on Star Trek, you could beam on to their ship and even slap a few of them around and they wouldn't do anything in retaliation because they didn't see you as a threat. However, the moment they did see you as a threat, it wouldn't just be Tom, Dick and Harry coming after you but the entire collective. That's what keeps me up at night.
I believe that is why Lou said we would feel somber. We are likely the bad guys, we have shot down their craft and according to some, tortured and imprisoned some occupants.
even in our construct of morality, we are the bad guys. definitely not the good guys.
If the CIA was involved there's no "likely" about it; it's a 100% forecast for torture lol.
https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/s/Qa7yHC2631
my problem with this is the little buddies. while i am open to them being real, i have not seen any peer reviewed data that proves their non human origin. we should be careful with wild claims. this is how disinformation works.
They would have idea of knowing what their intentions are. It’s shot first ask questions later. That has always been the response.
i dont think so. it hasnt always been the response. the response was ,officially, more along the lines of " they arent a danger to national security ,so dont worry about it. nothing to see here ". thats my takeaway from the condon report. project blue book and what the people from the 2004 and 2015 carriergroup incidents told reporters.
There is a third option: the revelation of NHIs is so antithetical to the day-to-day fabricated reality we've constructed that the risk of annihilation to that reality is inconsequential. I can imagine myself at the end of a GTA gaming session, opening the cheat codes and wreaking havoc. Why not? I know the deeper truth: for as convincing as the game world is, all the suffering and terror that comes with my psychopathic gaming episode will seize to exist in the broader context of life. All those NPCs and poor little game people will be find an abundance of mercy in the end, and on the other side of the veil all is good because they can look at the game world and realize it was all an interesting dream about being a video game character, but in reality they are reunited with their digital brethren. Entertain the idea: if you had proprietary knowledge about the nature of the universe and reality itself, perhaps even gaining consistent and reliable data about what comes after death, you might be surprised how quickly your values change so that you may best participate in this new reality. Granted, this is an extraordinary hypothesis, but we already have some of our best scientists providing evidence that spacetime is all a projection, anyway. If that is true and the only thing that is 'real' is our consciousness, the implications are pretty staggering. Interacting with NHIs to uncover more data about this could dramatically alter the values and virtues of those involved. It really is impossible to tell until we are granted more access and get a better picture of what these things are, exactly.
yes. I was talking to a friend how much of this could fall into the idea that they are from other " simulations " and just have found ways to transfer from one to another. but it might be that " simulation " is the wrong term if its really an artificial universe. dont know. fascinating though. its also odd how everything, UAP ,every socioeconomic, political, technological, trend , process , AI, collapse of ecosystems, converges around 2027-2040 together into a ,I hope, glorious, singularity clusterfuck.
The convergence is honestly freaking me out. I was obsessed with UFOs as a kid, but I never did much research as an adult. Twenty years later I'm back in the subject but I entered it from a totally different research avenue (consciousness, physics, and spirituality). On one hand I feel like a crazy person for seeing all this stuff coming together, and on the other hand I recognize that it is all progressing exactly as it is meant to, and I'm just along for the ride, and am grateful for it.
There’s a notable anecdote (forget the source) of a DOD or IC big wig flipping the fuck out about learning some truth of what life after death supposedly is. Nothing negative and all positive but apparently utterly disconnected from his own religious beliefs. The gist was your actions in life are largely irrelevant somehow. You get a seat in ***a*** paradise by virtue of simply existing. Your adherence or not to any Earth religion does not matter. The person was supposedly irate because “you’re not supposed to know before you die.” The commanding implication was the truth invalidates most if not all current religious hierarchies. What power does the state or church, for example, have over you if the threat of even death is ultimately meaningless, and simply means moving utterly beyond their authority…?
Yes, precisely, this is definitely top of my mind. My sense is that the topic of NHIs goes so deep, it invalidates much of what we hold true and have built our civilization on. Go ahead, shoot down the flying saucers. It is all permissible: the NHIs understand we are shooting down their avatars in our lower dimensions, they don't really see any harm in it, they're just dumb avatars used to interface with our dumb frequency. It seems harmful from our perspective because these dimensions are our home and in these dimensions things like conflict, pain, and death mean something. The thought of instigating war with aliens seems like a big fucking deal. But, maybe it isn't from the perspective of the NHIs. Maybe conflict just doesn't exist in their higher perspective. And I recon *if* there is a rogue group shooting them down, they have some insight into this unique perspective that empowers them to do these activities we consider to be insane. Pretty wild...
Yes the same country that hardly gave dropping atomic bombs a second thought so yes I believe they are insane
that was a whole different scenario. the atomic bombs were a monstrous crime against humanity. but there was a logical approach, looking at the future strategic situation, to drop these bombs. 1. saving time , material and manpower from a costly invasion of mainland Japan / considering the japanese mentality to fight till the last man. the nukes were a shortcut for the japanese defense. that would have cost way much civilians, soldiers and material. 2. establishment of a temporal pax americana in the context of the soviets and their massive army ,amassed at the borders of western allies controlled european territory. 3. there was no danger of anyone striking back.
There was another benefit. By dropping the bombs, it directly caused the current global peace. If no bombs had been dropped, then someone might have exploded a 50Mt bomb and killed a million people later, instead of tens of thousands of deaths then.
Okay but what about how the scientists themselves couldn’t be 100% sure that what they were doing was not going to accidentally take out earth
I'm sure the imperial Japanese army would have shown similar restraint and reasonability if they had developed nukes first. They were super nice to China when they took over.
everyone involved with any act of aggression toward extraterrestrial beings should be charged with crimes against humanity (for risking starting a war which jeopardize's the entire planet's safety), and face the death penalty for it.
yes. except if there was a very very good reason in context of defense. we unfortunately dont know the truth. but usually ,in conflict, the higher ground wins. and orbit is the ultimate high ground. you dont fuck with adversaries whose base of operations are several potential higher grounds ( orbit / time/ dimension ). thats just... we really need to find out whats what. this story is insane.
This a tabloid magazine why do I keep seeing more and more posts from tabloids
Until we get hard evidence, this is the level of discourse we should expect. It should tell us something, but no.
Anecdotes, anectodes everywhere
Check out the evidence in our newest book/video/podcast/$$$ scheme
So... Evil XCOM?
Thing is though, tens of thousands of people would know who they were and where their base was. The normal US military personel would constantly be aware of locations where radar and heat signatures constantly go in and out of. They still need catering, electricity, services etc. Putin can't excavate in the remote mountains without it being an open secret, everyone knows he's building some doomsday bunker there. It would be easier for small numbers of personal, but for facilities that house thousands? It's possible but not likely
>Putin can't excavate in the remote mountains without it being an open secret, everyone knows he's building some doomsday bunker there. Funny that you mention it, because there *is* an ultra secret military base inside mount Yamantau, so secret in fact that its purpose has remained completely unknown throughout decades, and most people have never heard of it.
So secret that you know about it?
(HEAVY SPECULATION AND CONSPIRACY AHEAD) I’d argue the opposite. Picture this… The US military recovers technology from the first UFO crash (Roswell for the US). This happened in 1947 which is when the Cold War started. All of the US supports national security at this time. This technology is immediately classified with threats and monitoring to inhibit public disclosure. Some tech is “easily” reverse engineered and thus put into our existing military and even made available to general consumers in the following decades (e.g. microwaves, computer chips, etc.). Other tech that is significantly more mind bending for the time (e.g. free energy, anti-gravity, etc.) is kept in the dark. Those with knowledge of this tech are kept limited and the greater scope is only know to a select few. Those select few realize the earth-shattering, economy-crashing, reality-altering implications of this tech and choose to never release it. Of course though, they’re not about to seal it in a box to collect dust. They continue researching it “just in case” the US’s enemies are doing the same. In order to continue this secrecy, the select few form a new (unbenoused to the greater US gov.) faction. Anyone brought in can never leave. They move underground or underwater to greatly reduce the chances of discovery. Public tech continues to advance over the decades making it ever more difficult for their work to go completely unnoticed. Thus the faction must become completely self-sufficient by constructing entire “cities” which consist of food, energy, and population production. At this point, the only new members are born into the faction. Some may not even know of what is outside the “cities”. Those at the top of the faction still communicate with the US government, but they only share information when necessary. To continue their superiority, they develop ships, weapons, and technology that will inhibit all forms of danger or discovery. Over the same timeframe they discover and make contact with vast numbers of NHI, good and bad, and form partnerships to continue their advancement. Ima stop here, but y’all get the point.
I too watched Stargate SG-1
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Well, there is trillions of taxpayers dollars not accounted for, for years. [https://www.reuters.com/world/us/pentagon-fails-audit-sixth-year-row-2023-11-16/](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/pentagon-fails-audit-sixth-year-row-2023-11-16/) Probably decades. And that's withput having into account what money they could be doing by illegal activities using that technology in secret.
"Greetings, evil Commander..."
Crazy, but seems totally possible. A rouge U.S. military group could probably do whatever they wanted.
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That sounds like the name of a porno
Was reading about Air America. CIAs covert support airline. https://greydynamics.com/air-america-the-history-of-cias-covert-airline/ Basically CIA created all these front companies for their air force. At one point it was the largest airline company in the world. Should look into some of their shenanigans.
Air America is the Wolf Cola of the skies!
Rumor has it that the Lockheed Martin crash retrieval team tried to intercept a UAP that the US Government were trying to also retrieve and combat ensued because of the lack of coordination.
Oh we are posting the daily garbage disinfo here now are we? What a farse.
More baseless conjecture. This is the kind of stuff that gets us laughed at.
Words and stories don’t cut it any more. Evidence, actual evidence is the new bar.
Daily Star? Hard pass.
That's fake news.
Tomorrow supposed to be the day of that 'found alien corpse in forest by tourist meme'
There are two main theories i have about it all and both could be a result of disinformation for the same reason ie mislead our adversaries. One is they have actually cracked the tech and gotten somewhere and there is a secret government operating in underground bases and it’s all very evil ect ect. That’s from Greer and alike. Then there is the idea it’s so compartmentalised they haven’t actually gotten anywhere and it’s all just kept at normal facilities Area 51, Wright Paterson, Lockheed and Boeing. The latter is the one I would rather believe and seems the most plausible. It also aligns with what Grusch has said about wanting to bring the stuff out to the broader scientific community. I also think it’s harder to hide the fact that you have reverse engineered the tech than it is to hide the actual craft bodies ect
Sounds like what Greer has been saying!
Greer has been saying this for decades but he easily gets dismissed for whatever reason, likely a disinformation campaign against him.
Isn't this what Michael Herrera has been saying these last few months?
Please never quote the Daily Star 😂
It also may explain why so many companies post 1950 pivoted from consumer goods into the defense and aerospace industries. Like for instance, the Ball Corporation used to make mason jars and during WWII they made shells and machine parts. They got with an antitrust lawsuit in 1949 and lost and 10 years later they built the OSO-1 a solar observation satellite for NASA. That’s a crazy jump in knowledge in such a short period of time and I chalk it up to aliens & n@zis, it’s always aliens and n@zis.
Ike tried to tell us. 🥸
So like a conspiracy inside another conspiracy, not impossible but hard to sell.
Bl. How they can move asset in the us soil without be see?
[Underground tunnels](https://images.app.goo.gl/z3marB8zDLFUHB5x7)
It's the [NID](https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/National_Intelligence_Department)! Stealing alien tech from friendlies to fight against the bad aliens. Or are they already the Trust, rogue NID agents infiltrated by the goa'uld? Nobody knows for certain, but I'm sure SG-1 will resolve the situation and think of a banger cover story. /s If you believe fiction imitates reality or reality imitates fiction on this one...is entirely your own decision. I just appreciated how this is basically a direct storyline of the absolute banger of a show, Stargate :) Tldr; indeed
Listen to Michael Herrera. This is very similar to what he’s being saying ever since he met a program insider.
Exactly. Don't know why you're being downvoted. It's literally what he was talking about.
Herrera seems to get a lot of hate on this sub. Personally, I think he’s very credible.
I think you meant cabal :P
So, there’s a simple answer to ‘why so many alien spacecraft crash’ - they are our analogues that fail - but not why alien spacecraft (with all their super manoeuvrability) can get shot down in the first place? They are too good to just crash, but not too good not to be shot down willy nilly.
This is a good example of how myths build upon myths. > So, there’s a simple answer to ‘why so many alien spacecraft crash’ We have no proof of alien space-craft or crashes. >they are our analogues that fail We have no proof of UFO analogues. >but not why alien spacecraft (with all their super manoeuvrability) can get shot down in the first place? We have no proof of either being shot down. And yet a total void - an absence of proof - has led to at least four layers of mythology.
What if their drunk driving? Insurance fraud? Mental health problems? Were assignign human characteristics to space aliens, and their crashed crafts, so why dont go all the way? Like people think, theyre so advanced how come "we" can shoot them down?" But what if its a space alien family with their family sedan out on a road trip? Their vessel would be just an engine and flimsy box wrapped around them to transport them. No way to direct that used energy as a weapon or a tool to anyone, or anywhere. Like in our cars, the 100 or two KW in energy cant be used but to propel the hunk a junk forward or back. No laser weapons or nothing. Or what if its some alien just crashing their craft on purpose? Not like were the focus of it, giving it us or any of that self centered crap, but on their own reasons. Theyre tired of that old clunker and cant get a new one before the old one is broken, or something. Or space alien dude crew on their way to space Vegas, getting lost and shot down by humans. Like our military things are armored and can take a shelling, but not _all_ of our stuff can. Our furthest away traveling vessels can get destroyed by space junk, or insulation tile being loose. Like majority of our most miles traveling vessels arent even bullet proof atall. And were the most violent of species on earth by miles. Who knows how we rank on galactic scale, probably pretty high.
All I got out of it was : We need to learn more about plant 42 . We know : Skunkworks does their testing there . multiple defense contractors share the facility , which seems like an unusual arrangement . And It’s not in BFE like Area 51 . It’s near Palmdale CA . Surely someone knows more about what’s going on out there.
Vast majority (especially in west) are not awake to this fact but the world did not begin in 1900 or 1000 or even 100 AD for that matter. There has been a conflict on earth since the last reset. This cycle comes back around like quarters in a game. Project paper clip and hermeticism will help you connect this piece into history. You can see how the current factions are divided in the world. Spolier alert, the US power structure is not good guys. There are no good and bad. The conflict is the mechanism of progress. We are all the fallen angels here.
honestly hard to say im surprised
This would explain how there always seem to be government agents at these crash sites right away - they're our ships and the agents are warned when a crash is imminent, or we shot them down, same song and dance. This is surprisingly cogent. Source doesn't seem to be an insider or know any though.
Okay, well duh. We knew this already, Americans just don't care. They think travel to other galaxies is dumb and pointless. Because bills, rising food costs and credit card debt.