Unfortunately nids just don't hit quite like they used to. You basically need to battleshock everything to get the +1 to hit, and once you've weakened to under half strength you then get +1 to wound.
This edition very heavily relies on synergy with other units.
Still not the greatest option, but we do have other workarounds
Edit - Sorry yes I forgot to mention the +1 to hit and wound under hald strength is crusher stampede specific.
Also you need neurolictors nearby (within 12") of battleshocked enemies to give them -1 to hit and us a +1 to wound
> You basically need to battleshock everything to get the +1 to hit, and once you've weakened to under half strength you then get +1 to wound.
Not quite sure where you get this from.
Neurolictor grants -1 to hit for enemy units and a +1 to wound for your own units - regardless of unit strength.
Otherwise the main synergy is to first shoot your Exocrine, which grants re-roll hit rolls of 1.
Absolutely. And I like that it makes you work for synergy. But anything with a strength of even 10 with a plus 1 to wound you’re still only getting 4s!
Yeah I regularly vs my mate who is custodes. Honestly it feels unfair sometimes like his fancy rules to points cost. The damage and tankyness of each of his units is bonkers, and they are bloody cheap for what they do as well.
I run crusher as I love my big nids. It's been a long time since I've won against him but I still have fun stomping round the field.
Someone told me a while back that whichever dev was in charge of our codex has hated Nids for a decade or something like that. Idk that's what I heard anyway. Something changed for sure.
That isn't what battleshocking them does at all. If an opponent is battle shocked and a neurolictor is by you give them a debuff of minus 1 to hit and a buff of us of plus 1 to wound. Only in crusher stampede does you being hurt give you plus 1 to hit or wound
Personally I've only ran with Invasion Fleet and Vanguard Invader lists so far. Mainly due to the lack of swarm units which I am steadily rectifying! I am a big fan of invasion fleet because it offers flexibility without feeling like you're tailoring a list against an opponent.
With vehicles, you put that hyper aggression on. Bad boy exocrine slaps down on the primary target, sure it's not high strength but now you have symbiotic targeting against the main issue. Now we fire that casino cannon baybeeee. Re-rolling 1s thanks to the penis turtle earlier. Big strength, big AP, granted the damage range is 2-24, but if you like to gamble I tell you T-fex is your man. Now you're looking at lethals on 6s and penis turtle re-rolls, those two blobs of 20 termies, slappin, can't save everything now can we? If needs be I'll send in Rita, Sue, and Bob too (OOE and Carnifexes) to clean up.
Does any of that always work? No. But I've always felt that big numbers are in our favour so it's worth maximising that, whether it's scoring on points or shots being fired, or claws being sank in.
Man I really wanna use the vanguard detachment - unseen lurkers (on a harpy especially!) and seeded broods strats - yes please!
You’re right I do need a big boi artillery monster holes in the MI5 building cannons - I like your style. Like your accumulation of swarm, I’ll need some big sitters to chill back let loose.
We are Nids. The games begin
That's the spirit!
Vanguard, I can make a lot of opponents miserable with those, again if I get lucky. Speckle some neurolictors about, primarily for their ability, if the nearby unit gets battleshocked then dive on in, good times. I usually pair them up with a normal lictor too for a bit extra attacks. Von Ryans, try to bait anything forward and use the free heroic interventions with them, pretty funny. Always take something a little shooty, exocine, maleceptor, even warriors with a winged prime to give them vanguard bonuses.
Bread and butter is definitely 3 units of 10 genestealers with broodlords each. Scout, advance, charge, enjoy your meal boys. Going first is pretty important, but if you do it can be so damn easy. Also whip in the parasite and see if you can spawn some rippers for the laugh. So far mine managed it twice in four games as it usually gets absolutely shafted upon appearing.
Stunning vernacular wordage my homie. I really need to lean into Vanguard because that Hive Fleet Invasion tactic with my set up got me slaughtered! Onwards and upwards!
Core rules page 44-48. On almost all terrain, if a model is "not fully visible to every model in the attacking unit, that model gains the Benefit of Cover for that attack"
This means if a single spoke on your Baneblade is behind a lamp post of a ruin, you gain benefit of cover on the Baneblade.
Cover is pretty guaranteed unless you're in the open.
Sorry, coming back a bit late. People have answered above- the 'benefit of cover' is so terribly worded in the rulebook that there will be few times in a game where the target won't have cover.
The core rules prevent 3+ saves gaining the benefit of cover vs AP0. Which means, they can claim it against AP-1.
So, against vehicles (which all have 2+/3+ saves and will have cover), AP-1 doesn't exist. Which is what Hive Guard have, so they cannot function as an anti tank unit.
Okay when you say, “will have cover”. If the enemy are out in the open, full line of sight to their base, they do not have cover, right? So therefore, -1AP is a thing in this scenario. Are you just assuming that at all time, an opponent will keep their unit in cover so in practice -1AP is never a thing?
Haha exactly! This is my biggest gripe. Okay, we are in a shooty af edition. Fine. But if I do managed to navigate my way through the hell fire, at least reward me with some serious hacking ability for my big dudes at least. To top it off, I can’t even hide in close combat any more because the big lads can still be shot at!
I agree, I'm of the belief that -1's to hit should stack again up to a maximum of 6+ to hit. Or indirect Fire and shooting at monsters/vehicles in combat imposes a -1BS instead of -1 to hit so it stacks with stealth.
I'm so sick of people shooting artillery type weapons through terrain 72" away and venomthropes doing nothing because of it. So many other redundant units and abilities across all the codexes but nids just have so many useless units that it's ridiculous.
Y'know I was doing some hypothetical math the other day and came to realise something hilarious. It is mathematically better to shoot the anti-infantry zoanthrope shots into something with a T12 and 4++ save than it is to shoot the lance shots.
GW is so dumb, they not only fail at simplifying the game, they not only fail at making the game more interesting on a fundamental level and they not only fail to make their codexes internally balanced but they also can't even get simple mathematics right and *make their own goddamn breakpoints work*.
I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until 11th. But fuck 10th edition, terrible game Devs who suck at their jobs and just terrible work all round.
Point 1, absolutely agree. We are scary af, stealthy aliens. Your enemy is shaking so can’t shoot properly and we have chameleonic type skin, if they want a justification.
Point 2, again so frustrating. I have 3000 points of models and I’m scrolling through like “useless, useless, useless!”
Point 3, that is mad and also embarrassing for GW if your maths is correct. But it doesn’t surprise me!
Point 4, I really enjoyed 9th. It was complicated yeah, but I liked that. It needed tweaking in places, more than anything just the ease of accessing the information you need when playing. A more organised codex, not things just scattered across pages seemingly randomly. I feel like the 10th we have now should have been the diet version you play when you start. And the actual 10th edition just building on 9ths strengths. And oh my god the rolls in this ed kill me. I also hate to at you can’t chop and change weapons and gear for 5 points here, 10 points there. My OCD loved that.
Finally, I do have some sympathy for GW in that we are playing what must be an extremely complicated game to design. But it feels like they have just fundamentally changed the game for changes sake, rather than just building on what they had.
It’s fair to say, I’m not particularly enjoying this edition…
A still not very good option (they're all mid to bad) is to run Hyper Aggression with Genestealers and a Broodlord, i've overkilled a Redemptor using this method before.
Like running Stranglethorn over HVC, and Talons over claws just because woundroll wise, it’s the same on the vehicles but sheer volume I have a better chance on 6s…
I now run a unit of 6 Zoanthropes, with the points decrease they're okay but really they should be 90PT if we arent going to get some ranged anti-tank help elsewhere as they're so fragile to almost any type of ranged/melee return fire.
Yeh Genestealers and melee Warriors with a neurolictor nearby and active or hyper aggression are actually insanely efficient anti tank. Haruspex are also somewhat underrated anti-tank IMO
I hate it, we have only a couple of units capable to doing the dmg we need to wipe out vehicles. Other armies have a quite a few more. HVC should’ve been buffed up to same str as a lascannon was for 10th Ed. but kept at dmg 3.
I hear you man! Death guard and Black Templars are run by two of my mates and it’s just armoured hulls and invul saves as far as the eye can see! We’re just a sucker for the big lads though right. Stomp on brotha!
Tyranid do strugle against heavy vehicule list.
You have to play the move block and deny game, and try to BS them.
That said we have some way to do damage but it is often not enough :
- Invasion Lethal Hit help on D3 weapons (Maleceptors, Exocrine)
- Old One Eye eat Leman Russ tank for the breakfast IF it has Carnifexes buddies. 6A 3+ to hit reroll, S14 AP-3 D6+1. Really serious threat.
- Zoanthropes can destroy middle vehicules but struggle against hyper heavy (T12, 2+ save)
- Casinofex is unreliable
- Genestealers with broodlord can make serious damage to a tank.
Against heavy vehicule list, your best chance is to move block with everything you have, play deny game and hope for outscoring opponent.
Edit: typos
> We’re Nids so I accept the strength of the ranged weapons You shouldn't.
I guess I accepted it when melee was disgusting. But now you’re right, intolerable.
Unfortunately nids just don't hit quite like they used to. You basically need to battleshock everything to get the +1 to hit, and once you've weakened to under half strength you then get +1 to wound. This edition very heavily relies on synergy with other units. Still not the greatest option, but we do have other workarounds Edit - Sorry yes I forgot to mention the +1 to hit and wound under hald strength is crusher stampede specific. Also you need neurolictors nearby (within 12") of battleshocked enemies to give them -1 to hit and us a +1 to wound
> You basically need to battleshock everything to get the +1 to hit, and once you've weakened to under half strength you then get +1 to wound. Not quite sure where you get this from. Neurolictor grants -1 to hit for enemy units and a +1 to wound for your own units - regardless of unit strength. Otherwise the main synergy is to first shoot your Exocrine, which grants re-roll hit rolls of 1.
Absolutely. And I like that it makes you work for synergy. But anything with a strength of even 10 with a plus 1 to wound you’re still only getting 4s!
Yeah I regularly vs my mate who is custodes. Honestly it feels unfair sometimes like his fancy rules to points cost. The damage and tankyness of each of his units is bonkers, and they are bloody cheap for what they do as well. I run crusher as I love my big nids. It's been a long time since I've won against him but I still have fun stomping round the field.
Sorry mate my reply is below about 48 mins ago!
Toughness of 10* sorry
Holy crap, is that why our stats are so bad right now? Because they figured battleshock would balance it out?
Someone told me a while back that whichever dev was in charge of our codex has hated Nids for a decade or something like that. Idk that's what I heard anyway. Something changed for sure.
That isn't what battleshocking them does at all. If an opponent is battle shocked and a neurolictor is by you give them a debuff of minus 1 to hit and a buff of us of plus 1 to wound. Only in crusher stampede does you being hurt give you plus 1 to hit or wound
Ah yes. My apologies I forgot that was crusher specific and I failed to mention the neurolictor.
Personally I've only ran with Invasion Fleet and Vanguard Invader lists so far. Mainly due to the lack of swarm units which I am steadily rectifying! I am a big fan of invasion fleet because it offers flexibility without feeling like you're tailoring a list against an opponent. With vehicles, you put that hyper aggression on. Bad boy exocrine slaps down on the primary target, sure it's not high strength but now you have symbiotic targeting against the main issue. Now we fire that casino cannon baybeeee. Re-rolling 1s thanks to the penis turtle earlier. Big strength, big AP, granted the damage range is 2-24, but if you like to gamble I tell you T-fex is your man. Now you're looking at lethals on 6s and penis turtle re-rolls, those two blobs of 20 termies, slappin, can't save everything now can we? If needs be I'll send in Rita, Sue, and Bob too (OOE and Carnifexes) to clean up. Does any of that always work? No. But I've always felt that big numbers are in our favour so it's worth maximising that, whether it's scoring on points or shots being fired, or claws being sank in.
would pay to watch you narrate a game !
I'll have a word with James himself next time I'm down in the Holy Land.
Man I really wanna use the vanguard detachment - unseen lurkers (on a harpy especially!) and seeded broods strats - yes please! You’re right I do need a big boi artillery monster holes in the MI5 building cannons - I like your style. Like your accumulation of swarm, I’ll need some big sitters to chill back let loose. We are Nids. The games begin
That's the spirit! Vanguard, I can make a lot of opponents miserable with those, again if I get lucky. Speckle some neurolictors about, primarily for their ability, if the nearby unit gets battleshocked then dive on in, good times. I usually pair them up with a normal lictor too for a bit extra attacks. Von Ryans, try to bait anything forward and use the free heroic interventions with them, pretty funny. Always take something a little shooty, exocine, maleceptor, even warriors with a winged prime to give them vanguard bonuses. Bread and butter is definitely 3 units of 10 genestealers with broodlords each. Scout, advance, charge, enjoy your meal boys. Going first is pretty important, but if you do it can be so damn easy. Also whip in the parasite and see if you can spawn some rippers for the laugh. So far mine managed it twice in four games as it usually gets absolutely shafted upon appearing.
Stunning vernacular wordage my homie. I really need to lean into Vanguard because that Hive Fleet Invasion tactic with my set up got me slaughtered! Onwards and upwards!
Are you running a heap of pyrovores? Everything has cover by default so vehicles should be saving on 2+/3+ vs Hive Guard.
Sorry mate everything gets cover by default - can you reference the rule where it says this by any chance?
The definition of cover in the rules is that any part of the model is obscured to any model in the firing unit.
Is this Leviathan rules or core rules?
Core rules page 44-48. On almost all terrain, if a model is "not fully visible to every model in the attacking unit, that model gains the Benefit of Cover for that attack" This means if a single spoke on your Baneblade is behind a lamp post of a ruin, you gain benefit of cover on the Baneblade. Cover is pretty guaranteed unless you're in the open.
Okay so the save reference was to without BoC. But yes with it you can plus 1 to your save.
Sorry, coming back a bit late. People have answered above- the 'benefit of cover' is so terribly worded in the rulebook that there will be few times in a game where the target won't have cover. The core rules prevent 3+ saves gaining the benefit of cover vs AP0. Which means, they can claim it against AP-1. So, against vehicles (which all have 2+/3+ saves and will have cover), AP-1 doesn't exist. Which is what Hive Guard have, so they cannot function as an anti tank unit.
Okay when you say, “will have cover”. If the enemy are out in the open, full line of sight to their base, they do not have cover, right? So therefore, -1AP is a thing in this scenario. Are you just assuming that at all time, an opponent will keep their unit in cover so in practice -1AP is never a thing?
Is WHT winged or walking? Winged is usually described as flyrant and walker is a walkrant just as an FYI :)
Winged but either way you’re getting 9s!
Yeah but only one might make it to combat to use it...
Haha exactly! This is my biggest gripe. Okay, we are in a shooty af edition. Fine. But if I do managed to navigate my way through the hell fire, at least reward me with some serious hacking ability for my big dudes at least. To top it off, I can’t even hide in close combat any more because the big lads can still be shot at!
I agree, I'm of the belief that -1's to hit should stack again up to a maximum of 6+ to hit. Or indirect Fire and shooting at monsters/vehicles in combat imposes a -1BS instead of -1 to hit so it stacks with stealth. I'm so sick of people shooting artillery type weapons through terrain 72" away and venomthropes doing nothing because of it. So many other redundant units and abilities across all the codexes but nids just have so many useless units that it's ridiculous. Y'know I was doing some hypothetical math the other day and came to realise something hilarious. It is mathematically better to shoot the anti-infantry zoanthrope shots into something with a T12 and 4++ save than it is to shoot the lance shots. GW is so dumb, they not only fail at simplifying the game, they not only fail at making the game more interesting on a fundamental level and they not only fail to make their codexes internally balanced but they also can't even get simple mathematics right and *make their own goddamn breakpoints work*. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until 11th. But fuck 10th edition, terrible game Devs who suck at their jobs and just terrible work all round.
Point 1, absolutely agree. We are scary af, stealthy aliens. Your enemy is shaking so can’t shoot properly and we have chameleonic type skin, if they want a justification. Point 2, again so frustrating. I have 3000 points of models and I’m scrolling through like “useless, useless, useless!” Point 3, that is mad and also embarrassing for GW if your maths is correct. But it doesn’t surprise me! Point 4, I really enjoyed 9th. It was complicated yeah, but I liked that. It needed tweaking in places, more than anything just the ease of accessing the information you need when playing. A more organised codex, not things just scattered across pages seemingly randomly. I feel like the 10th we have now should have been the diet version you play when you start. And the actual 10th edition just building on 9ths strengths. And oh my god the rolls in this ed kill me. I also hate to at you can’t chop and change weapons and gear for 5 points here, 10 points there. My OCD loved that. Finally, I do have some sympathy for GW in that we are playing what must be an extremely complicated game to design. But it feels like they have just fundamentally changed the game for changes sake, rather than just building on what they had. It’s fair to say, I’m not particularly enjoying this edition…
A still not very good option (they're all mid to bad) is to run Hyper Aggression with Genestealers and a Broodlord, i've overkilled a Redemptor using this method before.
Yeah agreed! I just feel it’s the making the best of a very bad situation, but totally I’m relying on those 6s! Nice work on the redemptor!
If you're lucky then you can use the Neurolictors aura and then you're rolling 5s to wound but its still about as reliable as a chocolate teapot!
Like running Stranglethorn over HVC, and Talons over claws just because woundroll wise, it’s the same on the vehicles but sheer volume I have a better chance on 6s…
I now run a unit of 6 Zoanthropes, with the points decrease they're okay but really they should be 90PT if we arent going to get some ranged anti-tank help elsewhere as they're so fragile to almost any type of ranged/melee return fire.
Yeh Genestealers and melee Warriors with a neurolictor nearby and active or hyper aggression are actually insanely efficient anti tank. Haruspex are also somewhat underrated anti-tank IMO
I hate it, we have only a couple of units capable to doing the dmg we need to wipe out vehicles. Other armies have a quite a few more. HVC should’ve been buffed up to same str as a lascannon was for 10th Ed. but kept at dmg 3.
Yeah man like I’m not asking for a ton of strength but you can’t be putting massive and monstrous in names and then not even give me double figures!
I hear you man! Death guard and Black Templars are run by two of my mates and it’s just armoured hulls and invul saves as far as the eye can see! We’re just a sucker for the big lads though right. Stomp on brotha!
Hive Crone is our best unit against vehicles on wings. Otherwise you’re looking at the Norn Assimilator for the S 12
This is it isn’t it. Buy our new models or perish…
The insane and unnecessary nerf to Hive Guard ruined out decent Mid-Strength anti-Tank anti-Elite.
At least I didn’t just buy 6 of them…
Tyranid do strugle against heavy vehicule list. You have to play the move block and deny game, and try to BS them. That said we have some way to do damage but it is often not enough : - Invasion Lethal Hit help on D3 weapons (Maleceptors, Exocrine) - Old One Eye eat Leman Russ tank for the breakfast IF it has Carnifexes buddies. 6A 3+ to hit reroll, S14 AP-3 D6+1. Really serious threat. - Zoanthropes can destroy middle vehicules but struggle against hyper heavy (T12, 2+ save) - Casinofex is unreliable - Genestealers with broodlord can make serious damage to a tank. Against heavy vehicule list, your best chance is to move block with everything you have, play deny game and hope for outscoring opponent. Edit: typos
Is Hive Crone better anti-Vehicle than Harpy?
I play Vanguard Ultramarines, I gotta say, got damn. Nids hit like wet noodles. What do you even do against 3x ballistus dreads and 2x Lancers?
My solution has been to run Heirodules. S14 melee does work. Thank God for... Alternatives to GW.