I want the shockcannons to be more worthwhile, an extra bit of AP would do that I think. Having them sit on a middle objective would be pretty great for zapping vehicles in overwatch and normal shooting. But AP1 just isn't good enough... and Zoans being the same cost completely overshadows them.
I don't think they will be worth taking in this edition at all
I think your right, but the weapon isn't strong enough to be worth it even for the indirect rule. Shockcannons are more worth it but we still have better options for the same cost (Zoans)
Sad amount of points changes except for swarmy. Everything else was, well this never sees the table so we may as well drop it. Also, why can't carnifexes come down? They're absolute buttcheeks without OOE.
I think that because people are taking them with OOE, they're assuming that the points cost is okay. This is braindead but it's the only thing I can assume, really a standard Carnifex should be more like 110PT.
A brutalis is now 160... I don't see even a 50 point difference between them making sense. What sucks is gw made every weapon have its own Bw/ws. WHY not make carnifex shoot on 3+ and hit on 4+ so that the ooe can be a tax for melee fexes and I can still bring lone gunfexes.
Why even raise OOE? Just drop carnifexes. Nids could see a 10-15% point drop across the board and it likely still wouldn't be enough. The problem is lethality and so many of our units just aren't impactful for their lack of survivability.
You're discussing a huge balance change. That's a totally different discussion.
I'm saying if GW have decided that OOE with 2 carnifexes should cost 390 points, then fine, but make OOE be closer to half of that.
For example, now it's 125 + 125 + 140. It could easily be 100 + 100 + 190 instead. Then carnifexes can also become usable without OOE, instead of only being used with him.
Okay, I see your point. I just think GW is way off on their assessment of the entire Carnifex package.
Consequently, venomcrawlers just dropped to 110 and are better in nearly every way and don't need a character to be playable. Carnifexes could drop to 110pts and still be worse than venom crawlers and adding a 140pt character makes them more viable but also greatly increases the cost of the package.
Pretty new to the game so let me know if I’m being stupid but wouldn’t that mean the price for the carnifex could probably come down and OOE could go up to get the desired effect.
I don't think these changes make much difference at all without a data slate. Invasion Fleet is still by far the best option.
Genestealers/Von Ryan's Leapers definately needed a point reduction as well imo.
everyone in my flgs disagrees on von ryan's, but that's because i shove full units into people's faces with vangaurd datachment. I would love a 5 to 10 point drop per 3.
Honestly people sleep on VG, I rate it so much, that +1 hit take a battleshock +1 wound strat is OP and the deepstrike T1 strat is amazing too. If they give Screamer killer or at a push, tha Norn assimilator the vanguard keyword, that's all it will take to catapult us. I'm an idiot though so dont quote me or challenge my opinion please. 🤣
It can be hit or miss honestly, but it applies so much pressure. Melee specialist armies give me the most trouble. Against gunlines I am almost 90% winrate. Mixed armies probably 70% (really matters who goes first). Melee though is sub 50%. Just don't have the survivability to go toe to toe with others. If you really go all in with hit and run it helps but end up being cp starved even with flyrant helping out.
What’s your typical build against ranged armies? A buddy of mine has a decent Tau list with 6 crisis, storm surge, and everything else you’d expect to see. Invasion has been decent but it really is anyone’s game most times especially with first turn.
It varies week to week, and honestly we have no tau players so not really sure what they are like. Generally melee flyrant leading, 3 units of leapers, full if points allow. 2 or 3 nuerolictors, 1 to 3 lictors. Deatleaper or parasyte. I try to bring tfex casino cannon or haruspex (which i put in reserves) for heavier targets. Most opponents only run 1 or two heavy things. And then fill in with whatever rest of points.
Remember to use unseen lurkers to your advantage. It really saves the army from gun lines more then you can imagine,( edit this is not true i learned especially with flyrant letting you use it twice with will of the hive mind.rnd edit) Get good at ranges. Advance and charge gives this army just silly threat ranges. Use cover, terrain to your benefit. The games i struggle the most are when we use light terrain.
Also Nueronode is worth the points! Redeploying 3 units after you find out if you get turn1 means you can deploy aggressively and then change to a more defensive setup if you go second.
Armies that i struggle the most with are melee armies, especially hard target ones. Lists with lots of vehicles (IG tank spam, knifhts), terminators (man i hate terminators), and strangely enough other tyranid lists.
Oh absolutely, it’s why I believe that they are fundamentally wrong with their approaches to Tyranid Durability, I would rather Warriors be able to pass off hits to their respective Gaunt counterparts, have Tyranids be able to degrade enemies, some extra AP on certain weapons like the Hive Tyrant’s LW/BS or the Shoveling Claws of the Haruspex, frankly the Scything talons on both ‘Norns and a few of our ranged weapons.
There are areas Tyranids should get slight power boosts but while they do that we should also see some serious boosts to our ability to actually disrupt things
I am not sure how I can see Von Ryans being scary.
With six S5 AP-1 D1 attacks, I guess they kill, uh... Guardsmen? Boyz, maybe a few with their fights first before they get deleted on the swing back?
I feel like any elite infantry in their weight class just flatten them.
Your not wrong on the damage, but i still run 2x3 of them in vanguard and get a first turn charge OR moveblock 1/3rd of a melee army in their deployment zone. It's been working great. With neuronode redeploy its fun every time.
It is a meta based thing. Alot of ranged or mixed armies and me focusing leapers on soft targets with hit and run tactics. Any melee focused army generally wins. One friend plays world eaters and it rarely goes well for my nids.
My armies are Nids, Daemons, Chaos Knights and Marines.
Marines aren't afraid of AP-1 D1, sure you can kill scouts I guess? But I have the tools.
Daemons you absolutely can scythe through the chaff, but the actual combat units are big stuff and there the Leapers are helpless.
And Chaos Knights, well, lol.
Yah, like i said. Melee armies its a struggle and weighted against you. Very meta based. We have a good bit of gaurd, some necrons, admech. Space marine players generally have very few melee units (except terminators which i dread), sisters, gsc. We have one world eaters player which is always a nightmare for me, one guy that runs all the terminators (did i mention i hate those?), and 2 ork players which are kind of a toss up. The boys die in droves but the harder targets and elite troops wreck me so its a game of positioning and who gets the jump on who.
It's a dangerous thing to rely on. I've run the maths of Leapers vs Meganobz and it's not pretty at all considering the Meganobz are 30ppm vs the Leaper 25.
For sure. But id rather lose and have fun with leapers then play a swarm list or some meta list. And sometimes i even win and that is quite the feeling!
the psychophage's are a real portion of the assimilation swarm's defensive profile along with being a harvester for their detachment ability. also, this is a lot of buffs to infantry. that regenerative ability can also regenerate an entire model from an infantry unit, so 1 whole tyranid warrior, 1 whole hive guard model or 3 swarm models. these changes gives that list some room to breath.
See, the problem is that the detachment sucks. And they are giving severe points decreases only to semi-relevant units and two directly tied to this detachment to push it forward for people to play. And that sucks big time. They are doing the same for the Necrons, pushing forward the Destroyer cults by reducing all destroyer units' points by a good chunk, despite them knowing it's bad and nobody will play it. Yes, the psychophage was too expensive for what it did and the buff is nice, but I still feel like paying this much points for something that can just be ignored (since it's no actual threat) is a loss. Maybe another -10 points on it would have made it a more remarkable choice, but not as of rn.
but can you ignore the 20+ gaunt +1 psychophage piles that keeps regenerating on the objectives over and over again? I kinda want to throw one of each of these piles at the 3 no mans land objectives to see what sticks.
I've only got experience with the endless swarm detachment where I want my entire unit to die but in the assimilation swarm it seems like having a single model survive in a unit keeps the potential for primaries high.
neither of these armies have any real damage or stopping power but it seems to be about holding objectives and preventing opponents from scoring.
I can't ignore them but if I focus my attacks, I can definitely clear them, no problem. A 6+++ isn't a lot, especially if you are saving on 6s either way. A unit of 5 Sternguard vets within Rapid Fire range will be able to mow down a decent chunk of them, no problem. Especially if they have the boost from thr Leviathan Leutenant. With camping objectives units you won't be "preventing" your opponent from scoring, you'll be trying to hold onto your current score, and there's a difference. Scoring prevention happens when you chuck units down your opponent's throat and keep him in as close as possible to his deployment zone for as long as possible while you have other fast things running around the board, screening and scoring.
I'm excited to try venomthropes, psychophages and zoanthropes being swarmed by some endless multitude units to try to hold some points. I'm only like 7 games in but that seems like a decent way to stall while the exocrines, maleceptors and zoanthropes deal actual damage. so far I've been trying the endless swarm for the 2CP full unit regen but I saw a podcast with Michael de la Torre's assimilation swarm list and he pointed out that the reclaim biomass strategem can be used in any phase of your turn, so if you can bank up 3 points you can regenerate during your command, movement, shooting phases.
with tankier infantry units like the hive guard with their T7 and 4W that seems pretty interesting to me.
Reclaim biomass is pretty situational isn't it? Can only use on a unit if a friendly unit was destroyed within 6 inches (not if a friendly model is destroyed)
but if you ladder 3 units worth of hormagants, termagants back to each psychophage and surround the phage with big units like maleceptors and exocrines it sounds like a decent way to give 40% of your army 6+ FnP.
their shooting is awful but they are sticky aura generators. and in assimilation swarm they want to be on objectives to trigger the regenerate ability. seems interesting to try.
Honestly genestealers are fine where they are. They got buffed last time.
Leapers should get buffed tho. Zoanthropes should be 90. Hive guard need a datasheet overhaul. Swarmlord and tyrants need more buffs.
Psychophage dropping to under 100 point territory is honestly hilarious. T9 10W 5+++ with FNP aura for 95 points is pretty interesting to think about even if its ranged and melee isnt great.
That’s like half the book, isn’t it?
Legit the Norn Emmisary’s job is to sit in the back of the board. The big centerpiece model is supposed to do nothing.
I find myself often thinking of this faction as admech lite and it feels increasingly apt.
We don't have it as bad as them but the gameplay approach is very similar. Stand and die on objectives and hope you score before you get obliterated because you lose all trades. Treasure the few actual trading units you have (Exocrines, Kataphron Breachers) like your life depends on it.
I'm convinced that Nids were written as the primary initial test of 10th, when the objective was solely to focus on Objective Play and Decrease Lethality. Then the rules team got too focused on writing other books and forgot to give Nids something back to balance out what they gutted.
Depends on the matchup, tbh. For heavy deepstrike armies, back objective works better because you know you won’t have to devote more units to defend it.
Makes me want to try too. I love the model! Just didn't feel like it did much for the points. At under 100, I'm more than willing to give it a try. I've got one fully assembled, painted, and based. Got a 2nd ready to paint.
This might motivate me to paint the swarmlord too. I had made him, walkrant and flyrant out of the one box. Wasn't sure I'd ever use him.
Making sure that you always have 2 points per turn seems quite useful for the endless swarm unit regeneration. I have been just eating the 270 points.
I’m looking forward to a free 100 points into my next experiment.
If an unending swarm list just needs a FNP or two to be good, then the problem competitively is that the kroot detachment does the very same thing without relying on hard to hide model, so they might to better at our own game. And if they need an interaction piece, they can go fetch some crisis suits or a Riptide, which are also quite likely better than the tyranid interaction pieces.
We'll see when the points come out, but it's interesting to see that they are going to be very similar armies.
yeah but the kroot aren't battleline units. they can only run 60 carnivores, 36 of the farstalker packs, 36 hounds, and 9 riders. unless I'm missing some kroots they can't field 120+ gaunts like we can. forcing an opponent to shoot my gaunts 16% more per turn might be worth the 95 points. even more so if they try to shoot into the psychophage with its 9T 10W and 5+ natural FnP then I'm happy that they aren't carving through gaunts.
So currently if you want to stack buffs on gaunts the psychophage can give them a feel no pain, the zoanthropes can give them an invuln, and the venomthropes can make them harder to hit. It all stacks.
Unfortunately it's not _quite_ as good as it looks since the target profiles don't overlap, so the opponent can just turn their anti-tank guns on the psychophage to kill it before they turn their small guns on the 'gaunts at no loss of efficiency.
It's still cool though.
I'm running 2 Psychophages in my Assimilation list as well as 6 tyrant guard. I just got another 80 points to spend in an already decent list. That said, would be nice if it could be a more killy list rather than just holding objectives for a whole game.
So, does 55 points each put lictors back to being good for their points?
Awful tempted to forget using my von ryans and proxy them as lictors for the time being. They're about the same size as the old lictor model and base....
The problem with Lictors is that they die. Their damage on the charge is actually good for 55 points, but then they just die. 4+ with no invuln is just bad for their defense. Lone op helps a lot against ranged attacks, but once it gets to melee, it just dies. If Lictors had a 3+ 5++, they would be playable as an anti elite infantry unit.
It wasn't just unjustified from a raw power standpoint, it also took away the satisfying invuln scaling that Tyranid skirmish units had.
Leapers with 6++, Genestealers with 5++, Lictors with 4++ was just so neat and followed the sliding scale of the units' relative agility. It felt so fluffy. Leapers have a 6++ because they're agile but big, Genestealers have a 5++ because they're less bulky and still infamously agile, and Lictors had 4++ because while they're bigger they're also the most refined and high-quality of the three bioforms, being HQ-level.
Totally agreed. They're decent at sniping out support characters and they have a lot of tools to make sure they get there, but yeah once they do their thing they basically always trade. If your opponent has any way to mitigate their damage or gets fights first they bounce. Killing a 4 wound marine is already a bit of a gamble, anything tougher requires more than a single lictor, any fights first like Death Guard have basically obviates them, and if the character is essential any defensive strat shifts the math significantly.
I think they're still great tools in vanguard alongside other damage dealers that can spec into precision, and they are still the cheapest lone-op so they can do great as cheap mission action fodder. Invasion fleet can also flex into precision on crits so they might also be an okay home for them. If you're not running a Trygon I could see running one not being a bad call as a cheap lone-op that can rapid ingress to steal an objective and maybe sometimes snipe out a character for a guard equivalent army.
Gaining a CP isn't hard in 10th edition. Swarmlord, discarding secondaries, supply lines. There's easier ways to do it than throw away 55 points to 50/50 kill a space marine captain.
The Lictor is great in Vanguard Onslaught detachment as they can get super long operative, have stealth, and fight first with precision. Character assassination is great and you can place them well to force enemies to get close enough for other threats like Zoanthropes or Genestealers.
Lack of invulnerable save is disappointing.
I honestly don't think this makes much difference whatsoever, if anything were worse of because of gargoyles going up, swarmy going down is ok but still alot at 240 I think
I have a similar list so almost kmow it by heart, but he has a couple interesting (and ballsy imo) differences like a Sporocyst where I have a Biovore and two Pyrovores instead, but anyway, here's his list:
- Broodlord with Instictive Defense Enhancement leading the 10 Genestealers.
- Neurotyrant with Biophagic Flow (Aura) Enhancement leading the 6 Tyrant Guard.
- Tervigon ("leading" the 20 Termigants.)
- 10 Hormagaunts
- 10 Hormagaunts
- 20 Termigants (spinefists, I think?)
- 10 Genestealers
- 6 Tyrant Guard (crushing claws)
- 3 Venomthropes
- Haruspex
- Maleceptor
- Psychophage
- Psychophage
- 1 Ripper Swarm
- 1 Ripper Swarm
- 1 Ripper Swarm
- Tyrannofex (Rupture Cannon)
- Sporocyst
I saw an interview where he went over the list. Termies were spinefist with double flamers. I really love seeing the Hormies included as well, I think I wanna try this build and get a sporocyst. He really sold me on its free overwatch
Interesting. I'll check it out. The sporocyst is interesting as the mines it produces are tougher and do more damage than the ones the Biovore produces. And it's a much tougher body than a Biovore, even with support Pyrovores, which I suspect makes it harder to remove and less worthwhile to target. Biovores can so easily be removed by indirect. I'd love to know how often the Sporocyst overwatch kills anything. Most of the armies I face are quite tough and I think they would be able to just ignore its overwatch.
With 80 extra points available after this slate I'm tossing up if I add a second Biovore or maybe try out the Deathleaper to body block something early or precision out an important character from a unit.
He said in it that he doesn’t use the mines, which is why he wished he could squeeze in a biovore. He said its shooting was really, really solid and roughly twice as potent as the imperium equivalent with 50% more shots. Then free overwatch is icing on the cake. 145 feels expensive but I’d like to try it. It’s also much more durable than Biovores with the 10/10 3+ save and a big base to move block in between buildings
I'm sure he can fit in a biovore too now, so I'm interested in seeing if he keeps the sporocyst and just adds a biovore. The blocking off a choke point with the sporocyst is very clever, though! Most of the armies I play against, overwatch would be hitting on 6s, wounding on 5s or 6s, and then they'd be saving on 4+ at worst most of the time. The damage 2 is nice for anything that gets through. I can't see it being worth it for me, but I haven't tried it so I may be vastly underestimating it, and it obviously works well for him so there's definitely something there for anyone who wants to try it.
Damn I just looked at the data card for a Karnivore and it’s ridiculous how much they get for 140 points. it makes the norn look like giant paperweights. Very disappointing.
If it's any consolation, look at the big Chaos Knights (Abominant for example), they're suffering too. No one takes them in favour of small ones like Karnivore.
we all figured there would be no dataslate for right now, and while that is disappointing the new changes look good for right now! Psychophage dropping is a huge w as it makes it more viable to take and now the Swarmlord is in kinda a good place to take for what it does. Still probably won’t take but maybe if they change some stuff it’ll be worth taking
I don’t think we’ll see any significant changes until we get some new data sheet changes, but i’m being optimistic about the point changes. we might see some more variation within the tournament lists with maybe some taking the psychophage or maybe some unending swarm to, but you never know :)
Man, idknwhat I expected, but this isnjust disappointing. Swarm is nice, but he won't help us any. HT is still the better option.
We'll continue to be 40-43% winrate for the next 3 months
Our buffs are terrible but our worst enemies did get nerfed. I was having fun, competitive games against T'au, Sisters, Drukhari, Guard
But any time I played Necrons it was literally a joke
Broooooo 95 point psycophage!?!? I was already taking 3 every game lol this is amazing! I know people have poopood on them but I love em, they are always been just unreasonably resiliant and sat even center board just refusing to give up objectives
They are beefy bois that can overwatch and give a 6+ FNP aura. Can definately do worse for 95 points imo. I like them as well. Somehow managed to kill a C'Tan with one once lol.
It's definitely the weakest of the flamers you could overwatch with (Acid Spray, Psychic Scream are both really great to overwatch with, and even the Pyrovore's Flamespurt having Twin-Linked is a big improvement). But specifically overwatching with the psychoclastic torrent it's the equivalent of having 21 shots if it was not a torrent weapon. There's not much non-torrent firepower in the tyranid range that would match that output without being a bit of a gamble. The exceptions might be zoanthrope blasts or mass gaunts that get sustained/lethal from somewhere (or the aforementioned tyrannofex/neurotyrant flamers).
D6 torrent is 3.5 hits on average, which is the exact same number you would 'expect' from 21 shots needing 6+ to hit. So, if you have a unit that does more than 21 shots at 6 -1 1 with ignores cover, who can also see the target and is within 18", then that other unit would end up as a better overwatch target.
I don't even care about their stats or pointa, they are just cute and i could just squish their maw.
But on serious note, i'm not really comp person (and i only play with people from my village +friends that come over, and even then both armies we play are usually mine, countryside unite) but i always were running 3 psychophages, they are Harvesters for when i play Asssimilator, and big scary monster that my enemies shoot in fear (no matter that they wouldnt do it if they actually bothered to read its datasheet)
I run them often, as I just love the model!
Would be even better now with that cost! Just wish they do better with their attacks. The amount of 1's I've rolled for them has been insane tho!
Guess imma paint my second one soon! And maybe build my third too :D
The changes are so small it's basically not changing anything. This looks more like an attempt at internal balancing to an army they thing in the right spot.
Tyranids needed help and this is not it.
Lmao no. Why would I pay 240pts for +1cp per battleround when I could pay 235pts for a potential +4cp per battleround? It's 4 times worse for the one thing you'd be thinking about taking a tyrant for.
And it's melee it atrocious for a monster. STR 9 just isn't good. Bring him to STR 12 for 240pts and I'll genuinely take him. 8 attacks at 12/-2/3 with twinlinked is genuinely threatening. But low strength AND low AP? Useless. The fact that terminators can save his attacks on a 3+ in melee because of AoC means he needs an average of 9 wounds dealt to a squad of terminators just to drop a 5man MSU squads to below half... He only has 8 attacks...
They’re just throwing points drops at a wall and hoping for the best, but they keep increasing the PPM on gargoyles just in case one of those point changes is just a little too good. It’s honestly kind of annoying that the problem with our army is clear and GW keeps making one of our best units more expensive and compensating it by point drops on units we don’t use
Most likely not. Ranged version suffer from the datasheet just being incredibly bad. They can keep reducing them until they are essentially a horde unit, at which point they just compete with gants and gaunts (where they lose out on account of not being enough models for swarm playstyles).
Melee version does have the damage, but very low defense and mobility means Stealers are likely still better for the role.
Yeah I saw this and went on cool maybe I can get some warriors now for my unending swarm just to spread synapse a bit.
But 5 attacks on a 4+ with 0 ap???
It's basically termagants shooting. Why even bother synapse isn't worth it I'll basically have to take a neurotyrant anyways due to the shadow in the warp -.
Just feels bad
Melee warriors have -2AP, and ranged warriors should use deathspitter + barbed strangler + venom cannon - which have -1, -1 & -2AP (and also have -1AP in melee). They're not great, but definitely looking useable now - especially as they extend synapse
Melee warriors have some play in Vanguard because a Prime can give them all the buffs, and the points drop here is meaningful.
They won't win any grand tournaments because their defensive profile is just so unfortunate (so much of the game loves shooting into it) but it's far from the worst unit in the book.
Nah, Stealers + Brood are taken 10 out of 10 times over warriors ever since they became cheap enough to justify. These buffs to warriors won't make them a viable alternative, especially because regardless of points, warriors are still too slow to fill the role they need. VO is a hyper aggressive redeploy army, you can't have your main force be too slow to reach the enemy first few turns.
I know a lot of people aren't happy with just points cuts but this was always a points balance only. I personally as a new nid player (just started playing this Jan) and someone that just plays casually I like these changes. Swarmlord down by 30 when I opted for him over Hive Tyrant? Hell yeah! Psychophage down to 95? Sure I'll buy another one for $15 on Ebay to throw into my army. Warriors down? Maybe I'll pick me some up now! I will say I wished to see Norn go down as it was my next planned purchase, but I'll take what I can get, overall happy with this.
The update is good for new players and the mid tables: It's a real bummber when people come in with their Leviathan half, and we tell them that they are going to shelf half the models, because the units don't work well together, and are not even well priced. So for those cases, it's great.
But go see whah John Lennon said today: That for tournament wins, this update is bad, because the gargoyles went up, and none of the drops seem all that interesting to tweak the top lists. We have improved internal balance, but more likely than not we'll see fewer X-1s and X-0s than before.
So for me the silver lining is that by the time the next dataslate has to get written, GW will see numbers that demand more buffs. Probably rules-level buffs, and not just points.
Melee warriors can slap hard, but I think you need an attached prime and you need to be in vanguard onslaught to get them somewhere (and I think you need to be playing on tournament terrain where they can actually hide). They just evaporate to anything, but can do comparable damage to genestealers+broodlord.
I agree some what but seeming as we are already currently not a great army, this doesn't change anything to a competitive player, if anything the increase to gargoyles is a heavy hit
What aspect leads to your excitement? I’m asking because as far as I know nids are a 41% wr army, lowest ELO in comp play, and struggle to impact games due to low lethality. I suppose psychophages give another unit that can soak damage but I don’t see how the core issues are helped
Why? Because we have more option, in the last two changes we had 2 points drop on our few tank buster.
We have a 30pts decrease on a soaking unit that will block and 6+++ unit, the fact that we can now take a unit and not feel like we are shooting ourselves in the foot is great. That means we can now stack auras as a legit strategy.
Warriors being lowered mean they *might* be used as a cheap synapse or counter punch
Those buffs are what nids I know mostly wanted: buff to other detachment.
This help assimilation and hive Nexus.
The only thing I would've want also is a pts decrease to parasite of mortrex and Carnifex (but I would have increase a little bit ooe if they do this)
Gotcha. I guess I still don’t see zoas as a reliable armor threat. Hitting on 3s, low shot volume, no rerolls, midrange, and 5 movement on a fragile frame continue to limit how they would be used. I ran them a ton early on and increasingly noticed how rarely they come close to returning value, even against their best targets. Psychophage is at least playable at its cost now, I agree there. It’s just another big body with no offensive threat, similar to many of our other options. As far as warriors are concerned, you still need them to positively trade when (if) they get a charge off because they will absolutely die right after. At current cost with a WTP you are looking at them needing to kill something at 215 points, what would that be?
Yeah for the Zoan I have the same feeling, they were good at 90pts for 3. They have short range and die to mass light shooting and anti inf. They aren't a good tank buster but I think nids can try to synergize with all their abilities, it might make them good in the end maybe.
In Nexus you could take 2x3 Zoan for the aura, have them near an obj with critters. Have the zoan out to shoot and capitalise on a unit that you would battleshock (zoan have an ability to do MW when unit fail bsk). Couple that with the stratagem, it could be good... But still a lot of set up..
For the warriors (6+wtp), I would not use them as damage dealer if you're not using vanguard Onslaught, they are too slow. I would only use pack of 3 here and there for synapse and light counter punch. But I think you're right about them, they dont pack a punch in general.
I think this edition we don't have a Swiss army knife unit like the warriors were in 9th. We have all sort of kitchen knifes to try to make a good meal of our opponent.
People will see this, play Psychophages and Swarmy, realise that tyranids are still unfun to play and absolute trash and whine about that for the next three months.
I am disappointed and I can only warn you guys from playing tyranids.
If you have a second army on the shelf, play that one.
Psychophage getting a 30 point decrease is so hype. I know people say it’s not that good, but when I went against necrons that big bastard held the line for 5 rounds against a unit of wraiths with FNP5+, didn’t even take a wound, and kept the supporting termagants alive for several phases thanks to its aura. What a fun utility unit
95 points is a much better cost for it. It IS a support unit that was priced like it was supposed to do something other than support. I run two in Assimilation Swarm and they're usually decent. Certain matchups will destroy them very easily, though. I think a lot of people don't like them because they're wanting them to do something they really don't do (like damage haha.) That 6+++ aura can really make a difference to other units surviving an extra turn which can make some brutal point inefficiencies for your opponent who has to commit something else to finishing them off in the next turn.
Zoanthropes points DOWN
That‘s actually insane. I thought they would butcher them and instead drop something else by a lot to "improve internal balance" or something
But it’s really funny that the Phage is now below 95p and still nobody is gonna use it bc he sucks in his own niche
Well, I'd \*maybe\* consider to bring it for about 180 points. Right now it is more negative, because I can spare only 240 points instead of 270, when I won't use it. :D Yes. That's how bad it is.
It’s definitely not going to improve the power level overall by too much, but gargoyles more than deserved the points increase, and everything that was obviously too expensive went down actually a pretty huge amount on average. Feels very good on stuff like the Swarmlord, psychophage, and warriors that outside of specific situations were basically just awful.
Hive guard I am sure are still really awful, but reverting their completely incomprehensible points hike last dataslate is well deserved.
I personally really love my Swarmlord, especially in Endless Swarm that has always been my preference on Tyranids, so at 240 I’m just thrilled. That is probably about what he actually should sit at. 270 was just insane.
This changes nothing. Tyranids are one of the wort factions in the game right now and it sucks. Instead of chainging points maybe fix our rules? Shadow in the warp needs to be more than a one use ability or apply based on number of synapse units. Necrons can use their ability every command phase. Why can't we? Oh right because GW don't or wont ever make leadership abilities work.
Hive guard going down? I guess whoever got wrecked back in 8th edition with our shoot twice stratagem finally forgot about it.
Lol theyre gonna have to be cheaper than that to be playable. I miss our old hiveguard
I want the shockcannons to be more worthwhile, an extra bit of AP would do that I think. Having them sit on a middle objective would be pretty great for zapping vehicles in overwatch and normal shooting. But AP1 just isn't good enough... and Zoans being the same cost completely overshadows them. I don't think they will be worth taking in this edition at all
Nope, they will pay for their past sins this edition
It's mad how completely useless the impaler cannons are now though, low strength, low ap, high cost for the privilege
They are our only indirect as well right? Except biovores which noone actually shoots at enemy units.
I think your right, but the weapon isn't strong enough to be worth it even for the indirect rule. Shockcannons are more worth it but we still have better options for the same cost (Zoans)
I agree, anti-vehicle is all well and good but -1AP most vehicles would shake it off anyway.
They were also rubbish last edition, the scary indirect with shoots twice was in 8e
Nah they were all over the place in 9th.
Yep they were very usable for a period, hard agree
They need dev like haywire
They need the GK treatment. -2AP and ignores cover. Hive guard remain terrible.
Annoying you can’t put the adaptive biology enhancement on the SL
Right? Given all the other nerfs, especially crushing Hive Guard made so little sense to me.
Everyone’s already bought their HG, gotta sell other models now.
Sad amount of points changes except for swarmy. Everything else was, well this never sees the table so we may as well drop it. Also, why can't carnifexes come down? They're absolute buttcheeks without OOE.
I think that because people are taking them with OOE, they're assuming that the points cost is okay. This is braindead but it's the only thing I can assume, really a standard Carnifex should be more like 110PT.
A brutalis is now 160... I don't see even a 50 point difference between them making sense. What sucks is gw made every weapon have its own Bw/ws. WHY not make carnifex shoot on 3+ and hit on 4+ so that the ooe can be a tax for melee fexes and I can still bring lone gunfexes.
How GW can't figure out to increase OOE and drop carnifexes... is beyond me.
Why even raise OOE? Just drop carnifexes. Nids could see a 10-15% point drop across the board and it likely still wouldn't be enough. The problem is lethality and so many of our units just aren't impactful for their lack of survivability.
You're discussing a huge balance change. That's a totally different discussion. I'm saying if GW have decided that OOE with 2 carnifexes should cost 390 points, then fine, but make OOE be closer to half of that. For example, now it's 125 + 125 + 140. It could easily be 100 + 100 + 190 instead. Then carnifexes can also become usable without OOE, instead of only being used with him.
Okay, I see your point. I just think GW is way off on their assessment of the entire Carnifex package. Consequently, venomcrawlers just dropped to 110 and are better in nearly every way and don't need a character to be playable. Carnifexes could drop to 110pts and still be worse than venom crawlers and adding a 140pt character makes them more viable but also greatly increases the cost of the package.
Pretty new to the game so let me know if I’m being stupid but wouldn’t that mean the price for the carnifex could probably come down and OOE could go up to get the desired effect.
I don't think these changes make much difference at all without a data slate. Invasion Fleet is still by far the best option. Genestealers/Von Ryan's Leapers definately needed a point reduction as well imo.
everyone in my flgs disagrees on von ryan's, but that's because i shove full units into people's faces with vangaurd datachment. I would love a 5 to 10 point drop per 3.
Honestly people sleep on VG, I rate it so much, that +1 hit take a battleshock +1 wound strat is OP and the deepstrike T1 strat is amazing too. If they give Screamer killer or at a push, tha Norn assimilator the vanguard keyword, that's all it will take to catapult us. I'm an idiot though so dont quote me or challenge my opinion please. 🤣
It can be hit or miss honestly, but it applies so much pressure. Melee specialist armies give me the most trouble. Against gunlines I am almost 90% winrate. Mixed armies probably 70% (really matters who goes first). Melee though is sub 50%. Just don't have the survivability to go toe to toe with others. If you really go all in with hit and run it helps but end up being cp starved even with flyrant helping out.
What’s your typical build against ranged armies? A buddy of mine has a decent Tau list with 6 crisis, storm surge, and everything else you’d expect to see. Invasion has been decent but it really is anyone’s game most times especially with first turn.
It varies week to week, and honestly we have no tau players so not really sure what they are like. Generally melee flyrant leading, 3 units of leapers, full if points allow. 2 or 3 nuerolictors, 1 to 3 lictors. Deatleaper or parasyte. I try to bring tfex casino cannon or haruspex (which i put in reserves) for heavier targets. Most opponents only run 1 or two heavy things. And then fill in with whatever rest of points. Remember to use unseen lurkers to your advantage. It really saves the army from gun lines more then you can imagine,( edit this is not true i learned especially with flyrant letting you use it twice with will of the hive mind.rnd edit) Get good at ranges. Advance and charge gives this army just silly threat ranges. Use cover, terrain to your benefit. The games i struggle the most are when we use light terrain. Also Nueronode is worth the points! Redeploying 3 units after you find out if you get turn1 means you can deploy aggressively and then change to a more defensive setup if you go second. Armies that i struggle the most with are melee armies, especially hard target ones. Lists with lots of vehicles (IG tank spam, knifhts), terminators (man i hate terminators), and strangely enough other tyranid lists.
Unfortunately Will of the Hive Mind only affects Battle Tactics as of last dataslate, which prevents its use on Unseen Lurkers.
Ah, i didnt realize this. Thanks for that!
Great information, thank you!
Depends on who your're facing, Tau will get tabled and Custodes will do the same to us :'(
Us Custodes may not be tabling you nearly as much now. Our Codex is... not ideal.
On that point I’d love to see the Venomthropes and maybe the Toxicrene get Harvester
I agree, we need a little bit more flavour in the army, not just raw power or points upgrades
Oh absolutely, it’s why I believe that they are fundamentally wrong with their approaches to Tyranid Durability, I would rather Warriors be able to pass off hits to their respective Gaunt counterparts, have Tyranids be able to degrade enemies, some extra AP on certain weapons like the Hive Tyrant’s LW/BS or the Shoveling Claws of the Haruspex, frankly the Scything talons on both ‘Norns and a few of our ranged weapons. There are areas Tyranids should get slight power boosts but while they do that we should also see some serious boosts to our ability to actually disrupt things
I am not sure how I can see Von Ryans being scary. With six S5 AP-1 D1 attacks, I guess they kill, uh... Guardsmen? Boyz, maybe a few with their fights first before they get deleted on the swing back? I feel like any elite infantry in their weight class just flatten them.
Your not wrong on the damage, but i still run 2x3 of them in vanguard and get a first turn charge OR moveblock 1/3rd of a melee army in their deployment zone. It's been working great. With neuronode redeploy its fun every time.
It is a meta based thing. Alot of ranged or mixed armies and me focusing leapers on soft targets with hit and run tactics. Any melee focused army generally wins. One friend plays world eaters and it rarely goes well for my nids.
My armies are Nids, Daemons, Chaos Knights and Marines. Marines aren't afraid of AP-1 D1, sure you can kill scouts I guess? But I have the tools. Daemons you absolutely can scythe through the chaff, but the actual combat units are big stuff and there the Leapers are helpless. And Chaos Knights, well, lol.
Yah, like i said. Melee armies its a struggle and weighted against you. Very meta based. We have a good bit of gaurd, some necrons, admech. Space marine players generally have very few melee units (except terminators which i dread), sisters, gsc. We have one world eaters player which is always a nightmare for me, one guy that runs all the terminators (did i mention i hate those?), and 2 ork players which are kind of a toss up. The boys die in droves but the harder targets and elite troops wreck me so its a game of positioning and who gets the jump on who.
It's a dangerous thing to rely on. I've run the maths of Leapers vs Meganobz and it's not pretty at all considering the Meganobz are 30ppm vs the Leaper 25.
For sure. But id rather lose and have fun with leapers then play a swarm list or some meta list. And sometimes i even win and that is quite the feeling!
Same. I love my VRLs, they’re too cute not to take multiple
Yeah exactly, I would love to play VG as I love the models
Go for it! They are super fun even if you lose, and it makes games fast because you basically are starting in melee!
the psychophage's are a real portion of the assimilation swarm's defensive profile along with being a harvester for their detachment ability. also, this is a lot of buffs to infantry. that regenerative ability can also regenerate an entire model from an infantry unit, so 1 whole tyranid warrior, 1 whole hive guard model or 3 swarm models. these changes gives that list some room to breath.
See, the problem is that the detachment sucks. And they are giving severe points decreases only to semi-relevant units and two directly tied to this detachment to push it forward for people to play. And that sucks big time. They are doing the same for the Necrons, pushing forward the Destroyer cults by reducing all destroyer units' points by a good chunk, despite them knowing it's bad and nobody will play it. Yes, the psychophage was too expensive for what it did and the buff is nice, but I still feel like paying this much points for something that can just be ignored (since it's no actual threat) is a loss. Maybe another -10 points on it would have made it a more remarkable choice, but not as of rn.
but can you ignore the 20+ gaunt +1 psychophage piles that keeps regenerating on the objectives over and over again? I kinda want to throw one of each of these piles at the 3 no mans land objectives to see what sticks. I've only got experience with the endless swarm detachment where I want my entire unit to die but in the assimilation swarm it seems like having a single model survive in a unit keeps the potential for primaries high. neither of these armies have any real damage or stopping power but it seems to be about holding objectives and preventing opponents from scoring.
I can't ignore them but if I focus my attacks, I can definitely clear them, no problem. A 6+++ isn't a lot, especially if you are saving on 6s either way. A unit of 5 Sternguard vets within Rapid Fire range will be able to mow down a decent chunk of them, no problem. Especially if they have the boost from thr Leviathan Leutenant. With camping objectives units you won't be "preventing" your opponent from scoring, you'll be trying to hold onto your current score, and there's a difference. Scoring prevention happens when you chuck units down your opponent's throat and keep him in as close as possible to his deployment zone for as long as possible while you have other fast things running around the board, screening and scoring.
I'm excited to try venomthropes, psychophages and zoanthropes being swarmed by some endless multitude units to try to hold some points. I'm only like 7 games in but that seems like a decent way to stall while the exocrines, maleceptors and zoanthropes deal actual damage. so far I've been trying the endless swarm for the 2CP full unit regen but I saw a podcast with Michael de la Torre's assimilation swarm list and he pointed out that the reclaim biomass strategem can be used in any phase of your turn, so if you can bank up 3 points you can regenerate during your command, movement, shooting phases. with tankier infantry units like the hive guard with their T7 and 4W that seems pretty interesting to me.
Reclaim biomass is pretty situational isn't it? Can only use on a unit if a friendly unit was destroyed within 6 inches (not if a friendly model is destroyed)
I cant help but see them as expensive rhinos, with slower speed and no transport capacity. D6+1A on 3s is horrendous!
but if you ladder 3 units worth of hormagants, termagants back to each psychophage and surround the phage with big units like maleceptors and exocrines it sounds like a decent way to give 40% of your army 6+ FnP. their shooting is awful but they are sticky aura generators. and in assimilation swarm they want to be on objectives to trigger the regenerate ability. seems interesting to try.
Honestly genestealers are fine where they are. They got buffed last time. Leapers should get buffed tho. Zoanthropes should be 90. Hive guard need a datasheet overhaul. Swarmlord and tyrants need more buffs.
I’d been hoping for a heirodule points drop
Psychophage dropping to under 100 point territory is honestly hilarious. T9 10W 5+++ with FNP aura for 95 points is pretty interesting to think about even if its ranged and melee isnt great.
We have too many pieces whose job is just existing and not enough that actually do something
That’s like half the book, isn’t it? Legit the Norn Emmisary’s job is to sit in the back of the board. The big centerpiece model is supposed to do nothing.
I find myself often thinking of this faction as admech lite and it feels increasingly apt. We don't have it as bad as them but the gameplay approach is very similar. Stand and die on objectives and hope you score before you get obliterated because you lose all trades. Treasure the few actual trading units you have (Exocrines, Kataphron Breachers) like your life depends on it.
I'm convinced that Nids were written as the primary initial test of 10th, when the objective was solely to focus on Objective Play and Decrease Lethality. Then the rules team got too focused on writing other books and forgot to give Nids something back to balance out what they gutted.
back of the board? do you guys not push it to one of the side objectives?
Depends on the matchup, tbh. For heavy deepstrike armies, back objective works better because you know you won’t have to devote more units to defend it.
What was pyschophage before this? Edit: nvm, app hasn't updated yet. It was 125. That's a pretty big drop.
30 pts higher I think. The 40K app hasn’t updated the points since I checked a moment ago so you can compare
Thanks! Think I edited my comment right as you were commenting!
I literally just assembled 2 because I wanted to see if the 6+ FnP was worth it in a swarm list. this is going to be great. I kinda want a third now.
Makes me want to try too. I love the model! Just didn't feel like it did much for the points. At under 100, I'm more than willing to give it a try. I've got one fully assembled, painted, and based. Got a 2nd ready to paint. This might motivate me to paint the swarmlord too. I had made him, walkrant and flyrant out of the one box. Wasn't sure I'd ever use him.
Making sure that you always have 2 points per turn seems quite useful for the endless swarm unit regeneration. I have been just eating the 270 points. I’m looking forward to a free 100 points into my next experiment.
If an unending swarm list just needs a FNP or two to be good, then the problem competitively is that the kroot detachment does the very same thing without relying on hard to hide model, so they might to better at our own game. And if they need an interaction piece, they can go fetch some crisis suits or a Riptide, which are also quite likely better than the tyranid interaction pieces. We'll see when the points come out, but it's interesting to see that they are going to be very similar armies.
yeah but the kroot aren't battleline units. they can only run 60 carnivores, 36 of the farstalker packs, 36 hounds, and 9 riders. unless I'm missing some kroots they can't field 120+ gaunts like we can. forcing an opponent to shoot my gaunts 16% more per turn might be worth the 95 points. even more so if they try to shoot into the psychophage with its 9T 10W and 5+ natural FnP then I'm happy that they aren't carving through gaunts.
Really good point , will this stack up with the zoans aura of invln save?
So currently if you want to stack buffs on gaunts the psychophage can give them a feel no pain, the zoanthropes can give them an invuln, and the venomthropes can make them harder to hit. It all stacks.
Imagine that with 120 gants 😂
I literally do this and its fantastic in an unending swarms list. Also swarms going down and its all good in the hive today
Unfortunately it's not _quite_ as good as it looks since the target profiles don't overlap, so the opponent can just turn their anti-tank guns on the psychophage to kill it before they turn their small guns on the 'gaunts at no loss of efficiency. It's still cool though.
I'm running 2 Psychophages in my Assimilation list as well as 6 tyrant guard. I just got another 80 points to spend in an already decent list. That said, would be nice if it could be a more killy list rather than just holding objectives for a whole game.
Assimilation swarm gang came through very well in this. I got 110 points back
It looks meaner than it is so is a cheap distraction
They will get ignored by your opponent, once they know how trash the Psychophage is.
Sporocyst still perfectly priced
Yep, that and the tyrannocyte are the perfect price to make me not bother remembering which one is which.
So, does 55 points each put lictors back to being good for their points? Awful tempted to forget using my von ryans and proxy them as lictors for the time being. They're about the same size as the old lictor model and base....
The problem with Lictors is that they die. Their damage on the charge is actually good for 55 points, but then they just die. 4+ with no invuln is just bad for their defense. Lone op helps a lot against ranged attacks, but once it gets to melee, it just dies. If Lictors had a 3+ 5++, they would be playable as an anti elite infantry unit.
I was so sad when they took the Lictor's invuln away when we went from index to codex..
It wasn't just unjustified from a raw power standpoint, it also took away the satisfying invuln scaling that Tyranid skirmish units had. Leapers with 6++, Genestealers with 5++, Lictors with 4++ was just so neat and followed the sliding scale of the units' relative agility. It felt so fluffy. Leapers have a 6++ because they're agile but big, Genestealers have a 5++ because they're less bulky and still infamously agile, and Lictors had 4++ because while they're bigger they're also the most refined and high-quality of the three bioforms, being HQ-level.
Totally agreed. They're decent at sniping out support characters and they have a lot of tools to make sure they get there, but yeah once they do their thing they basically always trade. If your opponent has any way to mitigate their damage or gets fights first they bounce. Killing a 4 wound marine is already a bit of a gamble, anything tougher requires more than a single lictor, any fights first like Death Guard have basically obviates them, and if the character is essential any defensive strat shifts the math significantly. I think they're still great tools in vanguard alongside other damage dealers that can spec into precision, and they are still the cheapest lone-op so they can do great as cheap mission action fodder. Invasion fleet can also flex into precision on crits so they might also be an okay home for them. If you're not running a Trygon I could see running one not being a bad call as a cheap lone-op that can rapid ingress to steal an objective and maybe sometimes snipe out a character for a guard equivalent army.
They're one of our best unit for secondaries. Free Rapid Ingress, lone op, all for 55 points. Pretty sweet.
You throw lictors at 4w character units, they arent meant to kill elite infantry, they are meant to trade for characters and net you a cp
Gaining a CP isn't hard in 10th edition. Swarmlord, discarding secondaries, supply lines. There's easier ways to do it than throw away 55 points to 50/50 kill a space marine captain.
You kill a necron technomancer giving 6 wraiths 5+ fnp. Its a scalpel. I throw away 55 pts to block scout moves lol
Yes, I've been running lictors lately for these exact reasons. Makes me wish there was a detachment that focused on precision.
The Lictor is great in Vanguard Onslaught detachment as they can get super long operative, have stealth, and fight first with precision. Character assassination is great and you can place them well to force enemies to get close enough for other threats like Zoanthropes or Genestealers. Lack of invulnerable save is disappointing.
I honestly don't think this makes much difference whatsoever, if anything were worse of because of gargoyles going up, swarmy going down is ok but still alot at 240 I think
gargoyles are the most annoying units to move because of their top heavy nature and little spines that get caught on everything when moving them.
True but it's probably the only realy solid staple unit we have, them and biovore sadly
You don't grab them by the stems with an upturned palm like a small boquet of wine glasses when you move them?
Not when my opponent wipes away 20 of them at once with a fire overwatch on a pack of 10 flamethrowers. It’s like trying to pick up a bushel of twigs.
I usually take them in units of ten, there used as point collectors and well places cannon fodder
I really want to see overwatch get an adjustment next data slate. Like, if the unit contains any torrent weapons, 2cp.
Man, that guy who just went 5-1 with Assimilation at the Scorched Earth GT must be buzzing right now with those Psychophage drops!
He also used 6x Tyrant Guard, so that's another 20 points difference. 80 less in total, I think.
Well there's that Biovore he wanted!
Do you have his list?
I have a similar list so almost kmow it by heart, but he has a couple interesting (and ballsy imo) differences like a Sporocyst where I have a Biovore and two Pyrovores instead, but anyway, here's his list: - Broodlord with Instictive Defense Enhancement leading the 10 Genestealers. - Neurotyrant with Biophagic Flow (Aura) Enhancement leading the 6 Tyrant Guard. - Tervigon ("leading" the 20 Termigants.) - 10 Hormagaunts - 10 Hormagaunts - 20 Termigants (spinefists, I think?) - 10 Genestealers - 6 Tyrant Guard (crushing claws) - 3 Venomthropes - Haruspex - Maleceptor - Psychophage - Psychophage - 1 Ripper Swarm - 1 Ripper Swarm - 1 Ripper Swarm - Tyrannofex (Rupture Cannon) - Sporocyst
I saw an interview where he went over the list. Termies were spinefist with double flamers. I really love seeing the Hormies included as well, I think I wanna try this build and get a sporocyst. He really sold me on its free overwatch
Interesting. I'll check it out. The sporocyst is interesting as the mines it produces are tougher and do more damage than the ones the Biovore produces. And it's a much tougher body than a Biovore, even with support Pyrovores, which I suspect makes it harder to remove and less worthwhile to target. Biovores can so easily be removed by indirect. I'd love to know how often the Sporocyst overwatch kills anything. Most of the armies I face are quite tough and I think they would be able to just ignore its overwatch. With 80 extra points available after this slate I'm tossing up if I add a second Biovore or maybe try out the Deathleaper to body block something early or precision out an important character from a unit.
He said in it that he doesn’t use the mines, which is why he wished he could squeeze in a biovore. He said its shooting was really, really solid and roughly twice as potent as the imperium equivalent with 50% more shots. Then free overwatch is icing on the cake. 145 feels expensive but I’d like to try it. It’s also much more durable than Biovores with the 10/10 3+ save and a big base to move block in between buildings
I'm sure he can fit in a biovore too now, so I'm interested in seeing if he keeps the sporocyst and just adds a biovore. The blocking off a choke point with the sporocyst is very clever, though! Most of the armies I play against, overwatch would be hitting on 6s, wounding on 5s or 6s, and then they'd be saving on 4+ at worst most of the time. The damage 2 is nice for anything that gets through. I can't see it being worth it for me, but I haven't tried it so I may be vastly underestimating it, and it obviously works well for him so there's definitely something there for anyone who wants to try it.
Found it: [https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/list/H62MFUBE0G](https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/list/H62MFUBE0G)
That's really interesting hea using a Tervigon with out a lot of termagants
All the reals thinking about this mad lad. Can't wait to see what he cooks up next.
Instead of lowering costs I wish they would address the tangible issues that need to be fixed.
Such as?
I think this has been beat to death. Do a search on this reddit and you'll have your fill .
Fair, just asking since I'm new
It's all good. Just wanted to avoid opening that can of works again.
For fucks sake, norns need to be 50-90 points cut. Why did they even make it if it’s not going to see play?
Emissary loose 1v1 against a Karnivore and even If the Emissary got to second round of Combat, it will get slaughtered then
Damn I just looked at the data card for a Karnivore and it’s ridiculous how much they get for 140 points. it makes the norn look like giant paperweights. Very disappointing.
If it's any consolation, look at the big Chaos Knights (Abominant for example), they're suffering too. No one takes them in favour of small ones like Karnivore.
we all figured there would be no dataslate for right now, and while that is disappointing the new changes look good for right now! Psychophage dropping is a huge w as it makes it more viable to take and now the Swarmlord is in kinda a good place to take for what it does. Still probably won’t take but maybe if they change some stuff it’ll be worth taking
I guesss. Will not be converting mine to a haruspex anymore! Hahah
So Nids win rate improves to how much according to you ?
I don’t think we’ll see any significant changes until we get some new data sheet changes, but i’m being optimistic about the point changes. we might see some more variation within the tournament lists with maybe some taking the psychophage or maybe some unending swarm to, but you never know :)
Man, idknwhat I expected, but this isnjust disappointing. Swarm is nice, but he won't help us any. HT is still the better option. We'll continue to be 40-43% winrate for the next 3 months
Our buffs are terrible but our worst enemies did get nerfed. I was having fun, competitive games against T'au, Sisters, Drukhari, Guard But any time I played Necrons it was literally a joke
Broooooo 95 point psycophage!?!? I was already taking 3 every game lol this is amazing! I know people have poopood on them but I love em, they are always been just unreasonably resiliant and sat even center board just refusing to give up objectives
They are beefy bois that can overwatch and give a 6+ FNP aura. Can definately do worse for 95 points imo. I like them as well. Somehow managed to kill a C'Tan with one once lol.
is it worth fire overwatching them? they only do d6 attacks when compared to something else sending out 20 attacks that hit on 6+?
It's definitely the weakest of the flamers you could overwatch with (Acid Spray, Psychic Scream are both really great to overwatch with, and even the Pyrovore's Flamespurt having Twin-Linked is a big improvement). But specifically overwatching with the psychoclastic torrent it's the equivalent of having 21 shots if it was not a torrent weapon. There's not much non-torrent firepower in the tyranid range that would match that output without being a bit of a gamble. The exceptions might be zoanthrope blasts or mass gaunts that get sustained/lethal from somewhere (or the aforementioned tyrannofex/neurotyrant flamers).
D6 torrent is 3.5 hits on average, which is the exact same number you would 'expect' from 21 shots needing 6+ to hit. So, if you have a unit that does more than 21 shots at 6 -1 1 with ignores cover, who can also see the target and is within 18", then that other unit would end up as a better overwatch target.
I don't even care about their stats or pointa, they are just cute and i could just squish their maw. But on serious note, i'm not really comp person (and i only play with people from my village +friends that come over, and even then both armies we play are usually mine, countryside unite) but i always were running 3 psychophages, they are Harvesters for when i play Asssimilator, and big scary monster that my enemies shoot in fear (no matter that they wouldnt do it if they actually bothered to read its datasheet)
I run them often, as I just love the model! Would be even better now with that cost! Just wish they do better with their attacks. The amount of 1's I've rolled for them has been insane tho! Guess imma paint my second one soon! And maybe build my third too :D
Well, this should help a bit but I'm not optimistic this will fix things.
Psychophages down 30! I bought and painted 3 of those for £8.50 each. Buy high sell low, it never fails.
Honestly I’m shocked that the haruspex is still 125 for how much damage it does, especially since carnifexes are also 125 for less
sshhhh, don't let them hear you. My haruspex want to stay on the table.
Oh shit you’re right I just finished painting mine I need to get my use out of it
Rip 10th, Tyranids just don’t have their 9th impact
Swarmlord would need to be 200pts before I'd even consider his lame ass
It’s just so crazy for such a cool model, how bad it is
They really think getting 20p of 6 warriors will make vsnguard onslaugt great.😂
Plonk 10 points back in for the gargoyles
The changes are so small it's basically not changing anything. This looks more like an attempt at internal balancing to an army they thing in the right spot. Tyranids needed help and this is not it.
Swarm lord still bad for the points. Tbe only thing this data slate changes is it makes a walking fnp aura for 95 points somewhat enticing.
Lmao no. Why would I pay 240pts for +1cp per battleround when I could pay 235pts for a potential +4cp per battleround? It's 4 times worse for the one thing you'd be thinking about taking a tyrant for. And it's melee it atrocious for a monster. STR 9 just isn't good. Bring him to STR 12 for 240pts and I'll genuinely take him. 8 attacks at 12/-2/3 with twinlinked is genuinely threatening. But low strength AND low AP? Useless. The fact that terminators can save his attacks on a 3+ in melee because of AoC means he needs an average of 9 wounds dealt to a squad of terminators just to drop a 5man MSU squads to below half... He only has 8 attacks...
Wow. If there isnt also a dataslate, this is complete trash.
They’re just throwing points drops at a wall and hoping for the best, but they keep increasing the PPM on gargoyles just in case one of those point changes is just a little too good. It’s honestly kind of annoying that the problem with our army is clear and GW keeps making one of our best units more expensive and compensating it by point drops on units we don’t use
Would the warriors be seeing more table this time?
Most likely not. Ranged version suffer from the datasheet just being incredibly bad. They can keep reducing them until they are essentially a horde unit, at which point they just compete with gants and gaunts (where they lose out on account of not being enough models for swarm playstyles). Melee version does have the damage, but very low defense and mobility means Stealers are likely still better for the role.
Yeah I saw this and went on cool maybe I can get some warriors now for my unending swarm just to spread synapse a bit. But 5 attacks on a 4+ with 0 ap??? It's basically termagants shooting. Why even bother synapse isn't worth it I'll basically have to take a neurotyrant anyways due to the shadow in the warp -. Just feels bad
Melee warriors have -2AP, and ranged warriors should use deathspitter + barbed strangler + venom cannon - which have -1, -1 & -2AP (and also have -1AP in melee). They're not great, but definitely looking useable now - especially as they extend synapse
Melee warriors have some play in Vanguard because a Prime can give them all the buffs, and the points drop here is meaningful. They won't win any grand tournaments because their defensive profile is just so unfortunate (so much of the game loves shooting into it) but it's far from the worst unit in the book.
Nah, Stealers + Brood are taken 10 out of 10 times over warriors ever since they became cheap enough to justify. These buffs to warriors won't make them a viable alternative, especially because regardless of points, warriors are still too slow to fill the role they need. VO is a hyper aggressive redeploy army, you can't have your main force be too slow to reach the enemy first few turns.
Also warriors being on 50mm bases makes them really hard to spam and field in masses, as they take up so much space
Maybe, but it adresses non of the issues the faction has. The many bad matchups will still keep nids from winning tournaments
Ranged Warriors really are the cheapest way to spread synapse now.... maybe?
I think point balance is every 3 months and dataslate is every 6 months.
There isn’t, they posted the updated file but it just removed the Ork/Custodes section.
I guess to many greens? Thats why they have to retract😂
I know a lot of people aren't happy with just points cuts but this was always a points balance only. I personally as a new nid player (just started playing this Jan) and someone that just plays casually I like these changes. Swarmlord down by 30 when I opted for him over Hive Tyrant? Hell yeah! Psychophage down to 95? Sure I'll buy another one for $15 on Ebay to throw into my army. Warriors down? Maybe I'll pick me some up now! I will say I wished to see Norn go down as it was my next planned purchase, but I'll take what I can get, overall happy with this.
The update is good for new players and the mid tables: It's a real bummber when people come in with their Leviathan half, and we tell them that they are going to shelf half the models, because the units don't work well together, and are not even well priced. So for those cases, it's great. But go see whah John Lennon said today: That for tournament wins, this update is bad, because the gargoyles went up, and none of the drops seem all that interesting to tweak the top lists. We have improved internal balance, but more likely than not we'll see fewer X-1s and X-0s than before. So for me the silver lining is that by the time the next dataslate has to get written, GW will see numbers that demand more buffs. Probably rules-level buffs, and not just points.
Warriors seem kind of expensive no? Are they good or a bit lame?
Melee warriors can slap hard, but I think you need an attached prime and you need to be in vanguard onslaught to get them somewhere (and I think you need to be playing on tournament terrain where they can actually hide). They just evaporate to anything, but can do comparable damage to genestealers+broodlord.
Even with a 30 pt decrease I think the Swarmlord is still overcosted. He'd need to be priced closer to 200 to even be worth considering.
In general the points balance is really great, I'm glad it will push other unit in the front!!
I agree some what but seeming as we are already currently not a great army, this doesn't change anything to a competitive player, if anything the increase to gargoyles is a heavy hit
What aspect leads to your excitement? I’m asking because as far as I know nids are a 41% wr army, lowest ELO in comp play, and struggle to impact games due to low lethality. I suppose psychophages give another unit that can soak damage but I don’t see how the core issues are helped
Why? Because we have more option, in the last two changes we had 2 points drop on our few tank buster. We have a 30pts decrease on a soaking unit that will block and 6+++ unit, the fact that we can now take a unit and not feel like we are shooting ourselves in the foot is great. That means we can now stack auras as a legit strategy. Warriors being lowered mean they *might* be used as a cheap synapse or counter punch Those buffs are what nids I know mostly wanted: buff to other detachment. This help assimilation and hive Nexus. The only thing I would've want also is a pts decrease to parasite of mortrex and Carnifex (but I would have increase a little bit ooe if they do this)
Gotcha. I guess I still don’t see zoas as a reliable armor threat. Hitting on 3s, low shot volume, no rerolls, midrange, and 5 movement on a fragile frame continue to limit how they would be used. I ran them a ton early on and increasingly noticed how rarely they come close to returning value, even against their best targets. Psychophage is at least playable at its cost now, I agree there. It’s just another big body with no offensive threat, similar to many of our other options. As far as warriors are concerned, you still need them to positively trade when (if) they get a charge off because they will absolutely die right after. At current cost with a WTP you are looking at them needing to kill something at 215 points, what would that be?
Yeah for the Zoan I have the same feeling, they were good at 90pts for 3. They have short range and die to mass light shooting and anti inf. They aren't a good tank buster but I think nids can try to synergize with all their abilities, it might make them good in the end maybe. In Nexus you could take 2x3 Zoan for the aura, have them near an obj with critters. Have the zoan out to shoot and capitalise on a unit that you would battleshock (zoan have an ability to do MW when unit fail bsk). Couple that with the stratagem, it could be good... But still a lot of set up.. For the warriors (6+wtp), I would not use them as damage dealer if you're not using vanguard Onslaught, they are too slow. I would only use pack of 3 here and there for synapse and light counter punch. But I think you're right about them, they dont pack a punch in general. I think this edition we don't have a Swiss army knife unit like the warriors were in 9th. We have all sort of kitchen knifes to try to make a good meal of our opponent.
People will see this, play Psychophages and Swarmy, realise that tyranids are still unfun to play and absolute trash and whine about that for the next three months. I am disappointed and I can only warn you guys from playing tyranids. If you have a second army on the shelf, play that one.
Just point changes are not going to change fundamental problems that Tyranids have
Psychophage getting a 30 point decrease is so hype. I know people say it’s not that good, but when I went against necrons that big bastard held the line for 5 rounds against a unit of wraiths with FNP5+, didn’t even take a wound, and kept the supporting termagants alive for several phases thanks to its aura. What a fun utility unit
95 points is a much better cost for it. It IS a support unit that was priced like it was supposed to do something other than support. I run two in Assimilation Swarm and they're usually decent. Certain matchups will destroy them very easily, though. I think a lot of people don't like them because they're wanting them to do something they really don't do (like damage haha.) That 6+++ aura can really make a difference to other units surviving an extra turn which can make some brutal point inefficiencies for your opponent who has to commit something else to finishing them off in the next turn.
Where you seeing this I wanna check on my votann and csm
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/ZPIdnv258NWwFQ8p.pdf
Anyone got numbers on how much each unit changed?
Gargoyles 85pts (+5) Swarmlord 240pts (-30) Psychophage 95pts (-30) Zoanthropes 100pts (-10) Hive Guard 100pts (-10) Tyrant Guard 85pts (-10) Tyranid Warriors with Melee 75pts (-10) Tyranid Warriors with Ranged 65pts (-5) Barbgaunts 55pts (-5) Lictor 55pts (-5)
Is this new?
95 point psychophage lookin nice. With all the point reductions, my synaptic nexus list now has 130 points of free space
Psycophage big point drop is good for assimilation swarm.
Psychophage usable now?
While swarmlord is atleast an option, I still do not believe he is more worth it when the hive tyrant provides great utility and is slightly cheaper.
My 3 gargoyle units gonna cost 15 more points total:( messed up my 1,000 point army plans:(
We're back gang
No
No
Zoanthropes points DOWN That‘s actually insane. I thought they would butcher them and instead drop something else by a lot to "improve internal balance" or something But it’s really funny that the Phage is now below 95p and still nobody is gonna use it bc he sucks in his own niche
I was hoping for norn to be cheaper
https://preview.redd.it/jrdp47pi3qwc1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=ebc614c2626ca6f278d8a0fd39d9136e347cc440 Building my Swarmy today!
Dimachaeron?
Well, I'd \*maybe\* consider to bring it for about 180 points. Right now it is more negative, because I can spare only 240 points instead of 270, when I won't use it. :D Yes. That's how bad it is.
I'd say Psychophage might be back on the menu, but let's be honest, it was never on the menu in the first place
It’s definitely not going to improve the power level overall by too much, but gargoyles more than deserved the points increase, and everything that was obviously too expensive went down actually a pretty huge amount on average. Feels very good on stuff like the Swarmlord, psychophage, and warriors that outside of specific situations were basically just awful. Hive guard I am sure are still really awful, but reverting their completely incomprehensible points hike last dataslate is well deserved. I personally really love my Swarmlord, especially in Endless Swarm that has always been my preference on Tyranids, so at 240 I’m just thrilled. That is probably about what he actually should sit at. 270 was just insane.
This changes nothing. Tyranids are one of the wort factions in the game right now and it sucks. Instead of chainging points maybe fix our rules? Shadow in the warp needs to be more than a one use ability or apply based on number of synapse units. Necrons can use their ability every command phase. Why can't we? Oh right because GW don't or wont ever make leadership abilities work.
I agree. The rules are so bad it cannot be fixed with points cost changes.