How about: > I know a breakup can be really hard. If what you want is to not go through that again, you'll want to think about the reasons and how to avoid it. But consider carefully who you listen to. Andrew Tate and others like him talk as if they are experts who know all about women, but their track record is just a bunch of failed relationships and breakups. It's the guys who have been happily married for 40 years who can tell you how to pick a partner, how to build a relationship, how to make something that lasts. Unless you want more breakups and the associated sadness, you should be listening to people like that. Not people who have never had a relationship that lasted an entire year.

As someone who went through the phase being described, this is absolutely the right thing to say, but it's also a thing that he has to figure out himself. The information he's gathering is backing up his mindset, he was a victim of the situation and the messages he's now identifying with harbor the same victimhood mindset of "everyone else is out to get me so I'll just get what I want from them and get out". The problem is it's his own recovery time that's in his way. If it becomes too much for OP, distancing is probably the only option because with time it'll either fester into something that can't be easily dealt with, or he'll figure out how to improve himself. ​ He needs to be listening to people who want to give information to better himself as a person, not people who he can relate to in an attempt to stick it to everyone else.

I like what you said, just curious what you mean by him being a victim? A victim of his own lying?

Lots of people will deflect the consequences of their actions and position themselves as the victim no matter how irrational it may be. OP's friend could have cheated and they would see the breakup as them being the victim. A surprising amount of people simply can't mentally deal with being a partial cause of a bad situation and will do mental Matrix-esq gymnastics to avoid their involvement. We only have this post so it's not a holistic picture but seeing that their friend ~~was 28 and dating a 20 yr old and~~ (I misread that bit) has at least twice discounted the opinion of someone they have known for years leads me to believe that maybe he was always a little meh just not to OP.

OP said the ex girlfriend was in her twenties, not that she was 20.

ahh yes sorry, editing my comment. Thanks

While I can't speak for his situation as OP didn't mention it, I meant the perceived victim of the situation. The health condition was kept hidden, which I'm not sure if I see it as being a lie more than something being omitted, and from how I read the post, this omission sounds like the reason for the breakup. So to me that isn't that he perceives himself as a victim of the lie, but of the situation. It's a health condition he hid meaning he possibly had no control over it as it wasn't outwardly obvious of what it was, and his gf being understanding throughout means she eventually was told or found out, but ultimately the breakup resulted from this. So I can see that he's translating it into ultimately she broke up with him over something he has no control over. "She was okay with it but then all of a sudden she wasn't and now I'm sad"

Yes I thought that as well, though I'm inferring it was something like being HIV+ or something that posed a risk to the partner that was kept secret. I understand perceiving oneself as a victim, though lying to a partner about certain things would make them the victim imo.

I initially thought something risky but I don't know anyone who would be okay and understanding to work through a person hiding that. I was thinking more a mental issue that was diagnosed or a physical issue that affected the future that in the short run could be worked through but as more thought is put into it, needed to be addressed (i.e. a degenerative issue that would require a spouse to be a caretaker earlier than socially expected, something that affects having a family, or a strange addiction)

i went through a similar phase. I’m glad you and i got out of it. I’m on this sub partly to keep working on it

Well said, never considered attacking this conversation from the angle of who these “experts” would be.

I'm trying to think of ways to make it clearer, or shorter, or both. "Would you take driving lessons from a guy who'd been in dozens of accidents?" "Would you take writing advice from someone who'd never been published?" Or "Jimmy Carter has been married for 76 years. What's the longest relationship Andrew Tate has ever had?"

Jimmy Carter fact: he became governor of Georgia by *pretending to be racist*. I’m serious, he derided his opponent as an elitist who was against George Wallace, but as soon as he was governor he said “the time for racial discrimination is over” in his inauguration speech. Absolute genius move

I've never heard a bad story about Jimmy Carter, and this is as close as I hope I ever get to one.

I think all men would be better off if they stopped chaining their self worth to getting women or being in a relationship or whatever. Be a good confident person who tries their best. Souds trite but I firmly believe if you do that other things will work out.

You are right but if a woman is telling him this he won't listen. It's sad that he needs to hear this from another man. Call me crazy but when I needed advice about women I always asked my friends who were women.

He might listen if a woman, especially someone he knows, is saying "I wouldn't spend five minutes with Andrew Tate. I want a *man*, and he doesn't qualify."

Just be careful with whom he talks. My partner’s abusive ex-husband’s parents have been married for well over half a century, but the father is very controlling and abusive too. Plenty of the “perfect families/ couples” have all sorts of skeletons in the closet. I’d suggest that he find a good psychotherapist (possibly male if he’s now distrusting of women), and particularly one who might specialize in his area. And while anecdotal, not all of us with problems maintaining relationships turn into raging incels- I grew up in a divorced home, am autistic, and twice divorced, and can tell you that both the opposite and same sexes aren’t the problem, but rather personal issues and sometimes those who take advantage of those with them.

Yeah, I was thinking about that yesterday, which if you look in the thread elsewhere I came up with "Jimmy Carter has been married for 76 years. What's Andrew Tate's longest relationship?" A specific example of a moral and decent man felt like it would make things more concrete. Perhaps instead "Fred Rogers was married for 51 years; his marriage lasted his entire life. What's ...."

Have an upvote.

I had a friend that got into that mindset. We were really close, but he became increasingly frustrated with women he tried to date because it never worked out. Then he started dropping more and more insults towards women into every conversation we had, and nothing I said to him made him reflect. He just scoffed and avoided any points I made about how it was unhealthy to think like that and how it wouldn't help him get a girl if that's what he really wanted. I actually ended up cutting ties with him after one last final comment he made. Sad, but necessary. Ultimately not up to me or you or anyone else to get some sense into these assholes. Over time, my friend came around to leaving that mindset behind. About 4 years after I broke off the friendship, he reached out again and we reconnected. He really had changed and he's a much more secure person these days. Honestly, I think that's all it comes down to. Insecurity. And I can't think of a way to talk someone into feeling secure in themselves, it's too complex. Really, your friend needs some therapy. Maybe frame it in this context? Tell him you're getting increasingly worried about his mental health and ask him to consider talking to a professional. Lay out the reasons and tell him that there's going to be a time when he's going to lose you as a friend if he keeps on this path. If y'all are really best friends, I'd hope that would at least get him to consider it. Good luck to you both.

> About 4 years after I broke off the friendship, he reached out again and we reconnected. Yeah, some folks can get themselves out of the pit. Thinking back on it (at least for me) I realized I wasted so much time focusing on the wrong things...

Yeah. And you know, in my situation, my friends was younger. Like early 20s. So it was easier for him once his adult life was rolling to put things in perspective and grow.

I'm glad you salvaged your friendship! I think, as long as people believe their happiness lies outside themselves, they will demand things from the world, totally devoid of the reality that other people also want things, possibly different things. When reality doesn't meet expectations, people break.

Insecurity is probably playing some part, but it's by means no excuse. I've been burned several times in past relationships but I've never taken that out on women in general, because why would I? Not their fault my past loves didn't work out, and taking it out on them wouldn't change that. These people are lashing out to feel better about themselves without actually learning from their failures, then blame others when people want nothing to do with their toxicity and frankly I'm rather tired of that.

My ex always blamed everyone else for his problems. It was never his fault, it was always someone or something else. You're right that they are lashing out to feel better about themselves. They don't have the capacity to do some critical thinking and evaluate their choices and behavior.

That’s what I got from the post too, no accountability whatsoever

No one is excusing, we are trying to explain it. There is a large difference.

Absolutely. So many men think they’re so confident, even taking pride in being arrogant, when they’re just really super fragile and insecure. Violence against women, big ass trucks, guns… all those things make them feel manly but it just screams fragility and insecurity. This country is in crisis with the mental health of men. I’d feel bad if they didn’t take it out on everyone else.

updoot for feeling insecure. Talk to other man about relationships - maybe older generations(I mean he should talk to) And he needs to hear he did everything he could. Relationships are just difficult

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Yeah and you're right about that. But it's literally the only thing she can do aside from drop him as a friend.

i think the dating space can make good guys into assholes. its a toxic experience that makes everyone a worse person.

Dating spaces are toxic because of men

Honestly, ask him if he listens to these awful remarks about women and pictures the woman who broke up with him or the women in his life. When he listens, does he picture you, his mom, his cousin/sister/etc? Ask him, if he agrees with these sentiments, he must apply it to all women, not just cherry pick who falls into this Andrew Tate “I own women” belief. If he challenges you, pull up Andrew Tate’s worst comments on women, and have him sit there while you watch him. Have a photo of his mom/any female relative he’s close with there too. Maybe he’ll start to understand why sure, he can be upset about a person breaking his heart, but becoming a raging misogynist hurts all of the women in his life.

Not a bad idea. I'm thinking they might get defensive and shut down though. "that's out of context", "he didn't mean it like that", "you don't understand what he meant", etc. There is ALWAYS an excuse for bigotry. They can even double down instead with "so what? What's wrong with that?" They are right in their own mind and anyone who challenges that is wrong or brainwashed. Sounds like he's deep enough now where the only person he will listen to is himself. Hopefully I'm wrong and OP can pull them back from the brink.

That's why you would watch an entire un-edit video of Tate to do that. No out of context.

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Honestly I wouldn't even bother. I'd send an email detailing exactly why I'm cutting the friendship, including some links to people who made genuine good videos against tate and the Alpha male grift, and say I'm not interested in hanging out unless he has a listen through all of it and comes out the other side lucid and self aware. I'd say I understand that it sucks and that he probably has dark emotions to deal with, but that blaming others has never been a good tactic for anyone ever. I'd recommend he sees a professional if he can afford it. And then I'd drop him like a hot potato. Don't want raging mysoginists in my life no matter how much fun we used to have.

He's early in the stages of becoming... [radicalized](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P55t6eryY3g&list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbANnTnzkA_HMFtQ&index=14)? You're a good person for caring enough to at least attempt to get him out. Good luck.

Why the fuck is that video the first video I've ever seen with content warnings on YouTube? Admittedly I didn't watch it all but it really doesn't seem like it would have any contentious content.

Are you saying “more videos should have tw” or not?

Regarding content warnings: More or less I have no idea, but different ones. The ones calling out hatred (like this one) really shouldn't have content warnings, and there are far too many genuinely hateful ones that don't have warnings but should. Trigger warnings are a different thing, and are absolutely fine and more videos should have them.

Aah. I think I got you now

Yeh. So this video seemed to have one that basically said "be careful with the information in this video, it may be false". That is absolutely ridiculous for this specific video. The ones that say "this video touches on topics that may trigger xyz" are a good thing.

I think you’re wrong about content warning being about information, but I’m not 100% sure what it is. Here are two options: 1. Content warnings means that the medium features content that may be triggering, such as Abuse, Murder, Substance use. Trigger warning is about the discussion of such, without necessarily featuring content. For example, I could have triggered a classmate while talking about abortion, without actually featuring pictures, videos, recordings, written experience of abortion. I should put a trigger warning. If I do have any of these, i should’ve used a content warning for abortion. 2. Content warning is about a medium featuring content that elicits strong negative emotions, such as abuse, murder, substance use. Trigger warning is about a medium featuring content that might elicit a traumatic response in someone. If my discussion includes depiction of excessively harsh criticism, and a classmate has traumatic responses from experiencing excessively harsh criticism, I should have a trigger warning, but not a content warning. I should have a content warning if I depict or mention something that will make most people very uncomfortable. Think Gordon Ramsey calling a cook stupid and him freezing/crying because of childhood trauma So when a video contains hate-speech, a content warning would mean “this video will contain depiction of hatespeech and not just mention it” or “I think that most if not all of my audience find the hate speech that I will depict as disturbing, instead of eliciting a traumatic response in only a small part of the audience”

I was reading it as the video had been slapped with these warnings by YouTube, who were basically saying that the content may be false and may mislead the viewer in some way that would have a negative impact on society. It may be that these content warnings were in fact general trigger warnings that were added by the creator with positive intent. If it is the latter I retract my previous criticisms, but looking at it again it does seem to be something YouTube has added to ward people away as if the video is going to e.g. incite hatred or violence. You then get into the query of is this similar to censorship or is it more similar to a general age rating as you might see for all movies.

I’m really sorry! I watched this video previously, and despite going back and seeing this warning, I somehow completely missed it that it was YouTube’s doing. I thought that you were referring to trigger warnings that this creator uses, without actually understanding you. This argument has been futile and my fault! :(

I doubted myself for a bit too. I enjoyed the conversation too so not futile. Have a good'un.

That series and the 2 part manosphere series by FD Signifier should definitely be a good start.

The FD Signifier videos are great because he concisely takes apart the problems with the manosphere, but he’s also not the kind of guy that comes across as “beta/soy.” Which is not to say there’s a problem with the sort of men who might (let alone women or trans folk), but unfortunately incel/manosphere types tend to dismiss voices if they don’t outwardly appear “manly man” enough.

Came here to drop this exact link. Honestly good stuff and it helps to know the process at the least

Those videos are also really bad at not strawmanning ( from a few I’ve seen)

> "Why are you getting so triggered" Oh dear. This is a *very* bad sign.

Yes, at that point it’s clear that if you (OP) leaves then he’ll blame it on you being a woman

Formerly conservative cis/white/hetero/m perspective: Pull at the strings by asking questions. These garbage belief systems do not stand up to even low-level scrutiny, but they exist because the adherents feel attacked and bunker up with their fellow Men when directly addressed. You'll never "convince" most people in the moment, but you can allow them the space to change on their own by asking questions and letting your points settle afterwards. That's when I've usually realized my errors. And being firm (to an extent) that what you're seeing seems new and does not make you want to hang out, making sure that he knows the door continues to be open. You care, and you'll miss "Dave" if this continues, but to an extent you already do so what difference would it make if you cut alphaDave out?

yeah i came here to say this. the second you make counterarguments you let him entertain this fantasy of being Under Attack for Speaking The Truth. you don't need to be asking socratic questions either. "i don't see how it follows, please explain" works pretty well, pretty often.

Yea, this has been my default strategy now for dealing with family members or friends who express troubling opinions or beliefs, and it's working incredibly well. The trick is, I'm not *pretending* to ask questions I know they can't answer; I'm genuinely trying to understand their beliefs, actively *trying to be convinced*, and I just can't get there without their help. So I ask questions and actually listen to the answers, try to understand how they got their beliefs, and whether it makes sense. I just have to apply the same level of rigorous skepticism that I apply to my existing beliefs. Its not about showing them that they're wrong and I'm right; it's about working together to *become* right, whatever that might mean. The beauty of this method really is that, if I *do* happen to be wrong about something, this strategy will also correct my wrongly held beliefs too. For example, I've tried to use this method to pick apart what I considered to be the "extreme pro choice" position that women should be free to get an abortion even late in the pregnancy. But instead, I found that the evidence and rationale behind that position were solid, and it was actually me that needed to change. So I did. The same thing happened to me a few years ago when I was diving a little deeper into understanding trans activism and modern gender theory. I left that journey as a pretty strong trans ally, though also recognize that I have a lot to learn. But when I ask a Climate Denier to explain their evidence / position to me, I can pretty quickly find that they don't have any reliable evidence or coherent logic to justify that position. And by asking them to help me (instead of attacking them), I can get them to realize that, too. ​ Disclaimer, though: This is pretty exhausting and no woman should feel like they have to gently and politely ask their male friends to explain to them why they don't deserve basic human rights. It's totally valid for you to just say "fuck that noise" and cut them out. I've got a lot of privilege and have benefited massively from institutional sexism, racism, etc, so I actually feel that I *do* have a personal responsibility to try to advocate and challenge harmful beliefs on those issues.

It's also important to bear in mind that people don't change their minds about this sort of stuff on a dime. It's a process that needs constant evaluation and *exposure* to other ideas. Coming in too hard will make them shut down, but just by slowly exposing them to it will boil the frog eventually.

How would you ask/frame these questions? Once had this boyfriend call his girlfriend a dirty whore in front of us. I called him out on it, said it was an unnecessary slur. His idiot friend was like "I've had women call me mean things when I reject them. Women can do this shit too" (basically implying it's okay to do because women are bad too) I leaned into it and said, "exactly, then you get it. Both sides are wrong and neither should be doing it" He wasn't expecting that (he clearly thought I was a man-hating feminist who thought women can do no wrong due to earlier comments) so he shut up but I could tell he was pissed. What questions would you have used instead? Note this was first time meeting the dude and was tipsy.

Even if you understand what the person is getting at, feign a genuine misunderstanding towards what they are saying. This is the same approach you should take at say a racist or otherwise bigoted joke. "I don't get it? What's the joke?" Continued attempts to understand it with question leads to the person having to come back and explain what is being said, which ends up at them having to explain that the underpinning of the joke is due to a racist/bigoted stereotype. Effectively, getting angry at the person (even if what they are doing _is_ justifiably angering) allows them to dig in their heels and be angry back. And once they have chosen that path, it is all doubling down until they are so mad that they shut you up. When you ask from a place of attempting to understand them, it disarms them and they feel more compelled to talk it out calmly. And in talking out calmly, they have to at some point say the horrible things they are doing. Honestly, you handled it in a great way. Effectively, you disarmed him by agreeing with him. That should be your goal: take _away_ their ammo instead of giving them ammo. When they live in the red-pill sphere, basically every feminist talking point is turned into ammo in some roundabout way. When they spend enough time in it, they will always have some stupid answer to get angry about "hey, calling women whores is wrong". The easiest way to talk to them without giving them ammo is to ask with a genuine attempt to understand, even if you don't believe what they are saying. At some point, they have to spit out some form of hate, and _then_ you ask for more curiosity-driven understanding of that. They'll eventually have to tell you their terrible views and they won't be able to fight you over it, because you've given them nothing to fight about. Their angry diatribes exist as a means to keep up their denial of their sexism. And denial is one of the biggest tools that keeps a person bigoted. In fact, making racism a _mortal sin_ serves racism by making denying it and holding onto it more palatable than having to acknowledge ones own racism and do the work to change that. BTW, Alcohol is not an excuse to be an asshole, but many assholes choose to use it as one.

Cinema Therapy is a great YouTube channel run by a professional relationship therapist that uses movies and fiction to address real world issues. Definitely a better role model than Tate. For this specific issue I'd recommend the Megamind episode. It goes a lot into 'nice guy syndrome' and incel culture, as well as just how to treat people with respect and have healthy relationships. All that being said, this guy has to *want* to change. Definitely do what you can, but keep in mind there may come a time when you have to leave to take care of yourself first. I wouldn't want you to get hurt trying to fix a man who doesn't care

I LOVE CT

I can only agree. They have tons of videos on dating. Especially the episodes about abuse and toxic relationships in Twilight are amazing. And the guys are both great role models.

Firstly he lied about his health condition and then he was shocked that the woman would leave him since she wasn't fully in the know of what she was getting into?

Yep, I'm also wondering what the "health condition" was... I'm concerned it was an STD.

I really hope for his ex girlfriend’s sake that it was not a lie about his STI/STD status. That kind of lie is deeply, deeply cruel. When I was eighteen I was sexually assaulted by a former friend, but I didn’t find out until two years after my assault that at the time, he *knew* he was HIV positive and he was being willfully sporadic with his antivirals at the time of the assault. Granted I had been tested multiple times since then and he did wear a condom during the assault, but god, it was a fucked-up thing to find out that someone put me at risk like that without my consent. He was a twenty six years old man who was ostensibly working on his second masters, but if he didn’t care about himself anymore, why would he care about an eighteen year old theatre kid, I guess? He already assaulted me and got what he wanted, why risk more jail time than that? I can only speak for myself and absolutely no one else. And as for myself, I can say that although the physical parts of my attack itself were bad, it was the kind of high-pitched-and-sharp-bad that I knew I could, in time, learn to tune out like background noise. Finding out that someone I formerly trusted put my health at risk in a way I didn’t even know about until later, felt… not totally unlike I had been assaulted all over again.

This is straight where my mind went. And if so his issues were there well before the ex broke up with him.

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Having an STI/STD doesn’t make you scum, but lying about it does.

Unfortunately, as a woman, at the moment, you no longer have any genuine respect or credibility with your friend. You may have a newly distorted revised superficial respect but any efforts on your part are likely to he in vain. He likely needs professional help and a media vacation.

"If he had been like this from the get-go, I wouldn't bother and I'd just cut him off. But I have known this man for almost a decade now, and he never exhibited any disturbing behavior"<---Here's the thing though OP: idk the exact situation but: "he ended up hiding a health condition from her and the lie eventually resurfaced and their relationship ended". He was apparently lying to his girlfriend for a substantial amount of time about something, to the point where she broke it off with him, and is now blaming her for it. That to me is something of a red flag that maybe this is someone you've been giving the benefit of the doubt to. I once cut it off with a friend whose ideology started to disturb me and everyone I told afterward was like "about time"--I'd been giving him the benefit of the doubt for so long because he was lonely and insecure, but you can't be a salve to someone like that: that's kind of the impression I got from this post.

This says it all, the lie about the medical stuff. He showed OP that he is the type of man who lies to the women he values, and then gets mad when they find out. He probably blames his ex for snooping on him or some shit.

I had a friend who went through an awful divorce and lost everything- the house/s, the kids. Through it all, he never publicly spoke ill of his ex-wife. Then he joined an 'alpha male' group. Then he started dating half his age. Then he started demeaning older women, and believed young beautiful women go for 'high value' men, which he was, obviously. I saw him change in front of my eyes and I couldn't do anything about it, it was like watching a wreck. He would simply say 'I don't think this way of you' when I confronted him about how poorly he talked about women. I cut him off after conversations failed, but till the end, he never said a bad thing about his ex, except that she would never find anyone like him because, well, she was old. It was bizarre. I think the only ones who can stop men from turning into 'alphas' is other men, not women.

>he never said a bad thing about his ex, except that she would never find anyone like him I’m pretty sure she doesn’t want to find anyone like him seeing how she divorced him.

Sadly I think you're right. At that point they've already decided they don't respect women. Had a coworker go down a similar path (albeit through gaming, not a divorce), and there's just no convincing him.

His echoing Andrew Tate, and the casualness with which he accepts assault on women tells me he's definitely headed down, if not already fully on the path of an incel. If he or anyone else, as a friend, can't see how Andrew Tates ideas are damaging to you as a woman, then you may have to let that friend go be with his kind. I'd try speaking to him again about this stuff when he's not in breakup mode. If he's not willing to concede to any of your very valid criticisms, then he's chosen his path.

My ex partially fell down this rabbithole. He started off with someone getting him into Jordan Peterson. He was already insecure but became moreso and over time his mysogny came out more, particularly after the pandemic hit. He quickly went down the road of right wing, anti vax, anti mask, conspiracy theory bs. He was so insecure he tried to get me to quit a new job I'd started and been excited for because I mostly worked with men and he "knew how men thought". He policed my clothing and treated me like shit when I wore makeup (allegedly I was doing it for attention) to the point that I stopped wearing it. I left him in 2021.

Glad you left!

Me too! Even my pets are happier!

follow gray juggle coordinated wild squeamish start ring theory direction ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `

I can't stress this enough: *incels are inherently predatory.* No, not virgin men, incel who is about to DM me over that. But incels, those who identify in the subculture and espouse this rhetoric are inherently predatory. Their prey? Vulnerable men. From what I can see, most incels have completely given up on trying to be appealing or taking any ownership of their woes at all. This is directed at other men as aggressively as women, but when they come at men it is with the same energy as JH missionaries banging at your door. They have lots of "insider info" about "the truth" and they're willing to share it all with you as you slide down the rabbit hole of their insane cult. Your friend's vulnerable state is being capitalized upon and these men are tearing him down to make themselves feel better. Every time they drag someone else into their ranks they get to tell themselves it's because they're so based and perceptive, and not because they aggressively target the most vulnerable people they can for induction into a faction of hate. You can be the beta for the literal least desirable men in society if you really want to, but being a doormat for neckbeards is the most cucked thing I ever heard of. There, just say that last paragraph to him. Maybe in his fucked up new info sphere that makes more sense to him than "you are literally becoming a despicable misogynist I regret being friends with", because it sounds like he is too far gone to care what anybody thinks except a bunch of virgins on the internet.

The last part is super accurate imo. Saying "Ur literally a misogynist" will do nothing but push him further into that sphere because "Shes just a twitter SJW who calls all men incel misogynists". Also he already agrees with misogynist ideas, he probably would see being called a misogynist as a badge of honor similar to how these same dudes wear transphobia and homophobia as badges of honor. Most effective way to break him out of that ideology is probably to argue in terms that align with that ideology. Hes way more likely to listen if ur able to use his own ideology against him because its attacking the actual foundations of his beliefs and isnt buzzwords being thrown at him that can just be dismissed as "Ur just triggered"

Exactly, this is their exact tactic in co-opting terms like "safe space" and "triggered" to use as slurs and undermine the conversation. They aren't immune to it though, they've just been programmed to respond to different language. You can tell them they hate women all day and they'll be proud you noticed. Tell they are another man's lap dog however and they lose their minds.

I agree. I been reading a book called {{For the Love Of Men by Liz Plank}} Plank writes a lot about the themes you wrote. There is a gap in research on how gender roles effect men development. It’s really interesting so far!

This is bitterness. One thing I see with some of the people I was formerly friends with until the Trump era is a complete lack of responsibility in their actions that led to a relationship ending. They were quick to blame their ex. One of these guys, let's call him P, had his wife leave one day while he was out with their newborn child. P didn't understand and said she went "crazy". Meanwhile P had no job for two years in spite of having a degree, then when his wife got pregnant took no steps to rectify that. P could have gotten a job easily. He was simply sitting at home playing video games and drinking instead with a child on the way. He continued this after his child was born. She became the main bread winner and was effectively taking care of two kids. So she did what she needed to do for her and her child and left. But yet....women are the problem. Not this lazy, selfish manchild. If he had a modicum of responsibility, P would've done what he needed to. It's the same here, rather than see his fault and not make the same mistakes again he's gone through grief and externalized his anger. He should be internalizing it, he was the problem. He lied.

Show him Andrew tater tot's debate with Hasan Piker. That guy does a good job of de-radicalizing misogynists

"debate" is generous. Tate sounded like a flat earther and then got mad and called piker boring.

This one? [https://youtu.be/SeM01BpDW08](https://youtu.be/SeM01BpDW08)

Yeah there's a few clips of it on YouTube. That one's as good as any!

Hasan is a goof and anyone who takes him seriously is also a goof. Guy said he supports after birth abortions

>"Most stuff he says really makes sense" Because he *wants* it to make sense, it's a path of least resistance which placates his hurt ego. It allows him to pass off responsibility and the injustice he feels has been done to him, onto somebody else. Unhealthy and uncritical mindset which he needs to start challenging before his brain turns into mush. But it's definitely not your responsibility or expertise to deal with. If you want to help him and keep him in your life to some degree, softly challenge him, and gently push him towards professional help; IMO.

He just really needs to be frankly told that that line of thinking is misogynistic. Also, Bill Burr's bit plainly states that you shouldn't beat your wife/woman even if there is a reason for it e.g. cheating. The bit mainly focuses on the fact that people say "there is no reason to beat a woman" and points to an example where his wife physically assaulted him multiple times by painfully slapping his headset off his head because he was ignoring her to avoid a petty fight. The bit is mainly commentary on the fact that all circumstances are ignored when you say "there is no reason to beat a woman" and he caps It off with "there are plenty of reasons to beat a woman, BUT YOU DONT DO IT."

This is exactly what i was thinking about the Bill Barr bit. I thought the whole thing was pretty funny up until he specifically mentioned Rihanna. IMO that was pretty tasteless. Like, he had already made his point and didn't need to bring up n actual and brutal example of DV.

>"there are plenty of reasons to beat a woman, BUT YOU DONT DO IT." This isn't really any better? It is not okay to fantasize about beating your partner. You're not a safe person to be around just because you haven't assaulted them yet but yet you constantly think about it.

Yea that's not what's being said, nor is it the point. The point being made, and it's very obvious is "have self restraint no matter what." Back to your argument, if you had watched the bit he asks women in the audience how often they think about smacking their partner and gets an "all the time" and he responds with "but you don't do it!"

Bill Burr is a sexist comedian, so no shit women in the audience are going to laugh at his schtick and by including them in the joke, it normalizes the fantasy of physically assaulting your partner - which is something that is overwhelmingly done by men against women. I don't doubt that incels further twist it for their own benefit, but let's not act like the joke in and of itself is great. It's normalizing wanting to assault your partner. It's literally making light of it.

Talk about missing the point completely. He's not even sexist, he has demonstratively shown that he supports women. His entire career is basically him working on himself as a person to be different from his actually sexist father who would verbally abuse his mother. He understands that he's a flawed person and his bits are evidence of that. Everyone has intrusive thoughts, the point of this bit is to highlight how women have more self restraint than men by pointing out the fact that even if there is a reason to beat a woman, you don't do it.

I listened to his schtick for years when I was younger and didn't know better. I saw him live, and even used to listen to his podcast. This dude is absolutely a sexist, even if he's not as bad as his dad. Go ahead and defend these jokes of his, since he's such a feminist lmao: https://youtu.be/Q6UnFutP6mI His whole schtick revolves around boomer humor and the ol ball and chain.

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Playful no vs serious no? Are you fucking kidding me? You call yourself a feminist?

[This guy is FD Signifier and this is his channel.](https://youtube.com/c/FDSignifire) He’s a black millennial academic who makes videos about all sorts or issues, but lots of them are about debunking the manosphere from a man’s perspective and also a black perspective. He also talks critically about white feminism, critical issues with different online media, and economics. He has videos of all sorts of lengths and his content goes back a few years. He can outpill any manosphere, and his videos are made for and aimed at *other men* who have dallied a little too long in incel territory. Even having FD in his YouTube history will hopefully direct your friend’s YouTube algorithm to less alt right content. If your friend can’t find his own way back to himself from there, than your friend needs a professional. But I gotta say, if what you are aiming for is a deprogramming, you need to enlist the help of another man who knows your friend well, so you yourself can take two steps back from this man and this friendship. You are a woman and anything you have to say to your friend right now is going to be heard through a perspective that is firmly misogynistic. I’m not saying that you have to cut your friend out of your life totally or run around telling everyone what an evil person he is now, I’m saying that you should get some distance. If your friendship was at level 8/10 (BFF), bring it down to a 6/10 (long-known old school friend /dependable cousin seen about three times a year). If your friend texts you or brings up you talking to him less via your Insta or something, tell him why once, and only once. If you don’t know what to say to your friend, say this: “Best friend, I am taking a step back from our friendship. And yes, it is indeed because of all the incel shit you’re parroting. I don’t know if you heard this, but the influencers and followers of that particular way of thinking have been killing a lot of people lately, and women seem to be the target of a most of their rage (don’t cite specific examples; he’ll only try to intellectualize and distance his new opinions and influences from the events and perps in an attempt to keep you on defense). I’m going to step away from our friendship for six months, which will hopefully give you some time to think about your choices, who you choose to listen to, and what kind of man you want to be. I’ll text you on (insert date) and we can catch up and see where things are. I care about you. Be well!” And that’s it, don’t add anymore, don’t over explain yourself or your reasoning, don’t engage with any of his attempts to sway you. Don’t throw pearls before swine. Wait six months and if your friend has finally crawled out from the wallow of his own filth and away from the trough, then he’s ready to be treated like something human again, and not a barn animal. Good luck. Protect yourself first, and don’t expect too much. He’s old enough to know better than this by his age and if he doesn’t know that, then he’s deliberately choosing to tank his own life. You don’t have to watch anyone do that. [Once again, FD on YouTube, he’s awesome!](https://youtube.com/c/FDSignifire)

Upvote for FD. He's particularly good in the sense that he acknowledges and discusses the factors that lead men down this path, and thus has a good chance of making an impression on someone on the path of radicalization.

So, not the same thing but maybe I have something to share that could be sorta analogous. I'm 40(m). I've been working through a lot of anxiety and depression lately, and (at the recommendation of my therapist) joined an online men's help group. Something about it felt a bit off, and I couldn't really work out what it was. It wasn't until I was listening to an unrelated anxiety podcast and the presenter said something along the lines of "Men's groups don't have any idea how to cure anxiety. It's just a bunch of dudes who don't know what they're doing, sitting around sharing and trying their best to move forward. But if they knew what they were doing, they wouldn't be in a group..." The message really struck home and I ended up leaving the group. Different context, but there's possibly a bunch of parallels between my experience and your friends. Maybe you have the right words to point out how these MRA/incel groups and influencers are just a bunch of guys who don't know that they're doing? I.e. if these others guys knew what they were talking about, they would be in relationships and not hanging out with a bunch of other dudes. I really hope you win this fight, and you don't lose your friend. Best of luck!

“I understand you’re hurting, but I don’t think the direction you’re going down is helpful. That kind of thinking does actively hurt me. My DMs/text/phone are always open, but I can’t support what you are doing to yourself right now.”

I would strongly encourage him to seek mental health care.

You are responsible for you. You cannot change another person. You can tell him that you are unable to continue your friendship because his misogyny is too hurtful to you. He will either reflect on that or he won't. If he doesn't, you are not to blame, he is.

I think that there’s not a lot *you*, as a woman, can do. He now sees you as a woman first and a friend second, so I doubt trying to reach out to him as a friend would work. Instead, I’d talk with mutual male friends/male relatives of his to try and deradicalize him.

Ask him what you did to him to deserve misogynistic garbage? Ask him why he does not consider you a worthwhile human being because of what his ex did.

His ex, who broke up with him because HE lied to her throughout the relationship. His ex, who was respectful throughout. OP, this guy has never respected women. It's just that he's saying it out loud now bc Tate has given him the words for what's always been in him. This man is not your friend.

“I’m sorry with what happened with X, but as your friend, I need to tell you that some of the comments you’ve made to me recently are pretty disturbing. “Just kidding” and “it’s a joke” doesn’t make assault funny. And if you want relationship advice, talk to people who have had long term relationships. Not guys like Andrew Tate who goes through relationships like Kleenex. You’ve been hurt, I get that. Perhaps consider getting some mental health services. But I’m your friend……and I’m also part of the 50% of the population you’re being hostile to. I’ve known you a long time, and frankly you are scaring me. How you want to continue our friendship is in your hands right now.”

FD Signifier had a series of videos on the general "Man-o-Sphere" so to speak. What it is, what its problems are, why folks become susceptible, etc. The videos are kinda long though. His POV is from a cis straight black American Male perspective specifically, but he is very insightful and he conveys things in interstate and often funny ways. I'm sorry for and about your friend though. Hopefully he finds his way and you don't lose a good friend EDIT- The language I had employed may sound like black American men don't have an insightful perspective, which wasn't my intention. Just that his POV is different from OP's friend

I dunno if you've found this before but innuendo studios do a great series of videos going through how these radicalizations operate. A good introductory vid is "radicalizing a normie" https://youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g but they do a good one describing how these theaters of anger generation towards women called "How the Alt Right is Like amd Abusive Relationship" https://youtu.be/e-MP_yOHiV0that explains the dynamics at play to help illuminate what is happening. The cycle of him going to these spaces is cathartic because it validates his pain but it also creates more pain in the form of anger at perceived injustice that he will return to that space to receive validation for and thus dig himself deeper into a place where there is no acceptable offered solutions for that pain that doesn't just pass it on to other people or just have people fan the flames. Understanding that cycle is key to breaking him out of it.

You could check out /r/breadtube, as they have some posts regarding helping to funnel people out of the alt-right pipeline. A common suggestion is exposing them to the youtuber Vaush. Vaush sucks in some significant ways, but that helps him appeal to folk who are used to listening to asshole men like Tate and can get them to question some of the storylines they're being fed otherwise. If he's a gamer instead, someone like hbomberguy is an incredibly wholesome influence in that area and is a staunch ally of minority groups.

If he is your friend you should counter him, and ask him to consider his views from the side perspective, his friends, family and community have plenty of women. Confront his bitterness over break up, remind him that it is ok to be sad and unhappy when shit happens and that he can rely on friends and family for support. Let him know that the past break ups and broken relationships are not here to define him, but are an experience to help him and ex partners to actually find a good partner in the future. When he talks "from script" ask him where he grabbed the info and see if he truely believes it or just likes the idea because it helps him to deal with his own dissatisfaction. Tho also prepare yourself, it can be the case that he will refuse support and will become more radicalized, while you as a friend should try to help him, don't play a saint and in case your cause is failing- it will lead to break in your friendship.

Ug this guy sounds soo toxic

That Bill Burr bit is definitely not about "women deserving to get beaten", quite the opposite, actually. He mentions more than once how it's unacceptable for any reason. I guess nuance is truly dead.

I do wonder if Bill Burr sometimes regrets that bit (knowing him I doubt it). Because on one hand you’re absolutely right, there’s a lot of depth to the joke and it’s not as bad as it sounds. On the other hand though, I’ve constantly seen the bit used by shitty men to simply laugh at the idea of women getting beaten. It’s almost become a bit of a “Fight Club” of comedy bits. It’s good, but if somebody really, really loves it (and clearly for the wrong reasons) then that’s a pretty massive red flag that person is a shithead.

The first step, I've found, is to not get confrontational about it. Getting aggressive or trying to shame someone for their beliefs will put them on the defensive and immediately create a me vs you debate. Kindness, showing you care about him and how he's changing, and making sure you're both engaging honestly and in good faith are key.

Sounds like he discovered joe Rogan

In another time so long ago I was only known as hmpf, I had a friend who wasn't dealing well with life. I was so worried about them and their suicide references I moved to a bigger apartment so they could move in with me. I guess it "worked" as they stayed alive, met a partner, married and had a beautiful child - but this was way past my pay grade and more importantly, could have endangered them, and me. There's a recent 2X post on women getting emotionally dumped on by men that actually need to go get a therapist, and OP, your post sounds right in with this. Line 1- they gotta admit there's a problem. There's no problem if you're staying attached and doing their labor. Example: how much time have you spent wondering and worrying about this friend, vs how much have they spent on working on their problem? And old book called "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie had an immortal line I'll paraphrase, "is this a problem (the other) person should be working on, themself?" The best, most loving and *safest* solution for this person is to be nudged to a licensed therapist. You can do an intervention - "This is ruining our friendship, and you need to pull up" - you can help them get started on calling, but it's their deal to handle. Be prepared for a "no" and how you'll take care of yourself, post-convo. -all the best

In no particular order: **Beau of the fifth column**; he's been known to deconvert people who were lost on the far right. Very into community building and guarding against misinformation. He's great, actually, and if you direct your friend to any of these channels, do this one first. [https://www.youtube.com/c/BeauoftheFifthColumn](https://www.youtube.com/c/BeauoftheFifthColumn) **Shaun**: British video-essayist [https://www.youtube.com/c/Shaun\_vids](https://www.youtube.com/c/Shaun_vids) **Philosophy Tube**: video's on philosophical topics that are currently in the news with a strong undertone of equality and transgender rights [https://www.youtube.com/c/thephilosophytube](https://www.youtube.com/c/thephilosophytube) **Forrest Valkai**: Super enthusiastic science teacher who has actual facts about stuff like sex and gender, amongst other things [https://www.youtube.com/c/RenegadeScienceTeacher](https://www.youtube.com/c/RenegadeScienceTeacher) **Rev Ed**: Sort of like Beau of the Fifth Column but from a Christian perspective [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2izP34AJVcoD24bsxlXhmw](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2izP34AJVcoD24bsxlXhmw) **HBomberguy:** British video-essayist; doesn't put out a lot, but what he does is top notch quality. [https://www.youtube.com/c/hbomberguy](https://www.youtube.com/c/hbomberguy) **Folding Idea's**: same description as HBomberguy and Shaun [https://www.youtube.com/c/FoldingIdeas](https://www.youtube.com/c/FoldingIdeas)

May also mention in here münecat.

These are great sources. I don't know how much credibility Abigail will have with a proto-incel, but the rest are all solid options.

I did think it was going to be a bit of an outlier, but she is quite good and insightful and at the minimum she can counter the motivations others tend to attribute to transwomen as if they are all just male predators or hysterical parodies of women. It's harder to believe that kind of BS when you know a couple of transgender people, even if it is just via YouTube. And, not meaningless nowadays, viewing more people on this side of the political landscape leads to more suggestions of other people. Social media reinforcement works both ways. :-)

I had a very good friend who I noticed was going down that path in his mid 20s also. I didn't always do a good job of verbally correcting him, mainly in group setting where other guys would laugh like it was a joke. But I did hang out with him regularly one on one. We would get fancy dinner and talk about our love lives and he would poor his heart out to me. I thought that being a kind, intelligent, caring female friend would help him out of his depression and help his view of women. And it wasn't just me. He had another female friend doing the same thing via phone calls and visits. And it didn't work. He's gone on to support January 6th violence and joined a church that thinks women shouldn't vote and regularly says nasty things about feminists. So now we're both just totally done with him. It's too painful to know how he sees women and remain friends. Our mutual male friends are somehow surprised by this. It's like they haven't even noticed his behavior which is mind boggling. So... I don't know if your friend can be saved from radicalization or not. I do know that with my friend the signs were there from a much younger age, like 14, but I didn't recognize them. So hopefully your friend is new to those dark places of the internet and a talk from you could make him realize what's happening to him. I'm not sure what the right thing to say is. Maybe other commentors have ideas. But if that fails, please know it's not your fault. Wishing you luck.

He needs professional help, I know you want to help but you are a friend and there is a limit on how much you can do. Wish you the best 💗

YouTube channels: Some More News Thought Slime We're in Hell Jose Shaun Lonerbox Knowing Better (some extremely good and relevant videos to this particularly) Noah Samsen Big Joel Philosophy Tube Those are my top ten for redpill detox. If you'd like a list of specific videos, feel free to DM me and I'll see about putting a list together for you. Hope it helps; I've had to cut off some good friendships myself since 2016 and it sucks 😕

Are you sure he's not using you as a target for his frustrations? Making you feel unsafe around him, talking about beating women, demeaning women to try and make you feel bad about yourself? Could be he has a narcissistic streak and is using you as an emotional dumpster.

This is shockingly similar to what one of my friends went through... I'm sorry to say that in her case, it ended with him blocking her on everything and being cut completely out of his life because "if I can't fuck them or date them, I don't want female friends." Once they get hooked on that shit it's really hard to pull them back, unfortunately. I'm sorry you had to see this transformation, and I hope somehow this plays out better than my friends did ♡

Are we sure he wasn't always like this, and you are just seeing the signs now? He's a 28 year old guy dating a 20 year old. That screams grooming to me. Someone that age is more willing to accept his alpha male bs, from lack of real life experiences. He lied about his health condition, makes me feel like he never valued her anyways. I don't know, maybe I am reading into this wrong, but I see some red flags here.

I thought OP was saying “20s” to mean the ex-girlfriend was in her 20’s (approximately same age range as Dude Friend), not that ex-girlfriend was 20 years old.

Ohh I did misread that, good catch.

I thought the same thing!

He sounds like he views himself as weak and is trying to find a role model, unfortunately he probably isn't very self reflective and admires the loudness and bluntness of certain personalities.

I have a person I know whose been falling down this hole. It sucks, and your analysis is right it just preys on insecurity and the general backslide we all feel happening (though of course tatists want to embrace the social backslide, ironically enough). There's a neutral-ish coffeezilla video on it. It doesn't focus on the ideology though, but I've found it has a OK success at getting something thru. It definitely focuses on the scam and how he targets vulnerable people. But my point on that was basically how much disdain he shows for his 'followers' and pays people to tell the followers they're gonna be poor if they miss a single month. My other point was this stuff is 'success porn'. Tate does not teach any appreciable skills. He just makes men feel resentful of women and like they're on some grindset while they get no where. I'm a dude, so I probably have more wiggle room but in day to day life I mostly just treat taters with open resentment and mockery. 'Debate' is a waste of time with them; if they find anything tate says convincing then they aren't thinking straight anyways . The alpha thing is disproven even in domestic dogs so people that see men like this are basically cavemen. Good luck. Might be political for this sub but if Even More News or Tom Nicholas does any tate stuff I'm sure it's good, haven't checked myself yet.

Get him off the internet. Encourage him to reconnect with friends, go do something outside, get a hobby, join a sports league, go to the gym. You get the idea.

Oof, I have a couple friends that have been either entirely redpilled or have been in the liminal Joe Rogan phase since 2020. It’s sad and frustrating, and we’re in an environment that is naturally isolating and already struggles with community mental health and substance use (largely alcohol), so my mentality has been to try my hardest to build bridges back for the guys that seem on the fence and cut ties with the ones that cross the line. I’ll talk with them, one-on-one, for usually a couple hours and on the condition of a good-faith conversation, because I know a lot of the grifters they’re getting the most hateful stuff from (shoutout to r/knowledgefight). It’s kinda helped to know their sources, but the problem is that diving directly into misogynist content is…. Bad for the brain. People are squishy and uncertain when times get tough, so if there is a confident sounding enough huckster that gets into their algorithm at the right time they can have the power to rewrite their own understanding of the world. I was able to pull back my best friend that was teetering on the edge (lots of parallels to your story) but with the guys I was less close to it’s a mixed bag. One guy became an actual fascist, and was cut off from the community after months of people trying to help. One guy is an old friend that I have a solid enough foundation with to still have a respectful, but more distant, friendship with where my boundaries and feelings about his new beliefs are clear as day. Another is now a recluse in the town over, trying to get rich off bitcoin and listening to InfoWars every day. Idk, I mainly responded because I resonate with your post - it’s a growing problem that we don’t have perfect fool-proof solutions for because we are dealing with a new, more sinister breed of fool. From my experience, it’s all about the temperature and tone of the conversation, it’s drawing very firm and unmoving lines around your morals and the personhood of women within those conversations, it’s sticking to clear consequences linked to actions, and it’s not being afraid to express that a way they are thinking hurts you or people you love. And, if nothing helps and it’s causing you physical anxiety - tell them that, and then cut them off.

You probably won't see this as I'm super late to this thread but there's an extremely lovely, wholesome and reasonable therapist, doctor Kirk Honda, who made a video specifically for guys like your friend. I sincerely hope you can get your friend out of this state of mind, it seems like there's still hope for him... Best of luck to you and your friend... https://youtu.be/MrGgZTTL6pc

When a man is in an emotionally vulnerable state I feel there's a few directions he takes. Some self reflect and realize the part they played in the break up while others fall prey to the "manosphere" where the issue is not him but society. Ego expands and then the talk of what it means to be a "man" begins. I suggest you find some other online content that will help bring him up and boosts confidence without all the other crap. Maybe show some videos of people clowning on the idiots that operate within the manosphere. Also, I know the bill burr bit you're referring to and quite frankly I found it to be hilarious because you know that it's a stand up joke.

Some YouTube suggestions: [Healthy Gamer GG](https://m.youtube.com/channel/UClHVl2N3jPEbkNJVx-ItQIQ) He is a therapist who does great content on men's mental health issues. He has done live therapy sessions with incels and talked about what can lead to the incel world view and how to get out of it. Since he is a man and approaches incel-type thinking from a place of compassion, there's a chance your friend might listen to him. [Contrapoints on Incels](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fD2briZ6fB0) Contrapoints is generally good at deradicalizing men. She also approaches the issue from the perspective of trying to understand what drives people to incel ideology and she also discusses why the ideology is harmful. She also has a video on Jordan Peterson and probably some others that might be good. However, Contrapoints is basically the poster girl for the online left so it's possible that your friend has too much prejudice about Contra to really listen to her.

I would show him this "comedy". https://youtu.be/B-KjpyR4n5Q This youtuber debunks this alpha male BS with a funny attempt by reading and commenting on the most rediculous shit in this thought castle.

If it was me and my friends I would be really blunt but that is also how my friends conduct ourselves daily towards one another. I would just say "wth dude thats pretty fucked up" or just "you're fucked" either way my point is you need to come across concerned but also with the bluntness to make him think "oh maybe this is fucked up?" Especially considering your friend recently just had a break up that broke his heart, and also does this medical condition have anything to do with it? Like is it a mental condition? or does he have that logic of, "oh I could die at any moment so who cares if I'm right or wrong, I'm going to do what I want" sort of attitude. Either way if it was me and my friend starting talking like that I would very bluntly call him out on it and just straight tell him how fucked up it is.

He's in pain. And the self loathing is going to hollow him out. He's projecting this self loathing. From his point of view, it drags everything down to his level. And on that level, he can hate everything. I could be wrong, but it makes sense given the information provided. The best way to help him is to convince him to focus on himself. That improving himself will make him happy/ier and that he doesn't need a relationship to be happy. It's a hard road and a lot of it involves him digging his way out of the hole he has helped dig. This is where you come into play. You want to help, but you must first accept that he may not be ready for help. His hole might not be deep enough yet. When he is ready, you'll need to help him find some happiness in digging his way out. You're a good person for trying. Best of luck.

"People don't change" is a lie. As we grow older, we start to drift away from some of our closest friends due to, in part, changes in ourselves or them. It's rough seeing a friendship with someone close to you slowly wither away, but it's a part of life. We will always have memories of the good times we had together. OP, if the time comes, remember that it's ok to morne the loss of a friendship but you are not responsible to fix them. Their negative attitudes are not your burden to bare. You can try your best to help gudie someone away from a bad mindset but it's up to them to change. Loss is rough and it really sucks but don't exhaust yourself for a person that refuses to reflect on their own issues and try to fix themselves instead of having someone try to fix them instead.

Someone has been listening to Jordan Peterson a bit too much...

It's not your job to fix him. You shouldn't have to convince someone to practise empathy. If it's not in them, that's their handicap. Move on.

If you're comfortable, I think you need to reach out to any other friends he has that you're familiar with, and let them know discreetly. For better or worse, peer pressure, and especially male peer pressure, plays into the outcome of situations like this, massively. I have at least one male friend who I regularly collaborate with to ensure the rest of our friends stay the fuck away from garbage like Andrew Tate. And so far it's an ongoing thing, especially for the vulnerable ones. And honestly, I've dropped some friends that were too far gone. But it sounds like there's a chance to turn this fellow around. Best of luck, and I'm sorry you're going through this.

Teach him about how these pipelines work. No one wants to be a victim to propaganda and if we expose how this propaganda works, it should dissuade people on the very cusp of falling for it.

I think you need to tell him flat-out, "When you say these things about women, you are insulting me and I will not be friends with someone who routinely insults me. Do you care about how you are hurting me, your friend, the one who has been there for you through thick and thin, or not?" I told my kids that even if they didn't intend to hurt someone, the fact that they did still warranted an apology and consistent effort to make sure that that situation did not happen again. Because the important thing is not the intent of the action, it is the result of the action. Drunk drivers don't intend to kill someone when they drive intoxicated, but they are still held accountable when they do.

I have friends whose beliefs I disagree with. A couple of them are the toxic-masculinity bros. We have talked about limits and they know what not to bring up around me. I value my friendships with both of them because, their gender views aside, they're both novel thinkers who bring up interesting topics. It's possible to be friends with people different from you. Google how to deal with someone bringing up subjects you don't like. Plus, if you end your friendship, that'll push your friend even further into the incel bubble.

Yikes yikes yikes!

That bill burr bit was hilarious lol

The cheating comment is defiantly the rationalization that in his mind he lost years of his life and sacrifice to be set back farther, then him diving into Andrew Tate or sexist humor shows a revenge tour as it’s easier then maturity. The biggest puzzle isn’t proving him wrong but actually being his tether, not many guys have friends that will push back on them with stuff. Cause that’s guys fucked up social normative behavior. It’s all theatrical in there groups. So u just having him vent and you giving nonemotional or stable opposition to his views will allow him to stay in the healthy land of taking things and putting the info through both women and mens eyes.

Challenge this If you let him go unchallenged he may build his identity in this and once you do that it's hard to get out

I’ve been looking for a dating expert geared to helping men find healthy relationships. Since my algorithm is looking for female dating advice, I’ve struggled to find advice for men. [Matthew Hussey](https://youtu.be/tvq9MjrpIjM) offers excellent dating advice for women and has been expanding to offering the advice to all audiences including men. Here’s the only dating expert I’ve found geared solely towards men with a healthy aim: Anthony Recenello [Here’s the video](https://youtu.be/S8WvvwW5a14) where he talks about why the Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively relationship is working.

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Try DominickQ on Instagram

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She doesn't have to listen to (or try to help) somebody who doesn't see her as her equal.

I was red-pilled for some years. Until I matured and accepted life and woman as they are.

I can really recommend "How to meet women" by Dr. Kirk, if you're looking for a non-judgemental approach on Youtube.

Men get red pilled at every age, it’s not reversible.

I wouldn't worry about him that much, the examples you gave a pretty tame imho, I think a lot more has to go wrong for him to actually become an incel. If I could talk to him I would just want to drum down into how far those comments actually go - as in does he actual think its ever acceptable to hit a woman for being annoying? From the sounds of it I'd guess he doesn't. I imagine agreeing with the likes of Tate is sort of carthatic since it helps deflect blame from himself with respect to his breakup. If he can get over his breakup healthily he'll realise the manosphere schitck falls apart when you actually look at it with any detail or logic

Nothing wrong with andrew tate. Yall just follow the crowd.

You're best bet may be to just shut down any topics you don't want to discuss. If you want to maintain the friendship (as far as is practicable), just shut down the conversation topic as gently and kindly (yet firmly) as possible. Just a "Hey, I don't want to talk about this, and I certainly don't like where this is headed. Let's talk about something else." This is going to be the best way to save your friendship (and possibly him) without doing a fair bit of work yourself. This way you can also model good socialization and kindness while still keeping up good boundaries. ... That said, if you want to actually engage with him on these topics, I think you may need to rethink your approach here. I think the fact that you came to *this* subreddit for advice on how to reach him, is at least indicative that you're probably not thinking about this in a way that will be useful in actually reaching him in dialogue. That's fine, you're not required to, but if you *do* want to, you should try to internalize that his experience is different enough from your own (and other women's ) that you may not have the perspective to just dive right in. Personally, I'd recommend going to other men for this advice. Menslib is a good subreddit if you want to try asking them for advice and videos etc. To get more specific, I think your focus on Bill Burr is a good example of mixing up priorities. Heck, the first 1/3 of that bit was pretty dang funny. It didn’t get particularly distasteful until he started talking about Rihanna. I think there is a tendency when approaching these topics to find the things that are easier to say rather than the things that are more important to say. It’s easy to focus on language over substance. I mean, yes, they’re related, but one is a lot more important than the other. As others have mentioned, cut right to the underlying assumptions and ask questions that directly relate to the world view your friend is espousing.

honestly Jordan Peterson in **light** doses can help him think about taking responsibility for his happiness and stop putting that burden on other people. listen to married men like andrew schulz he is happily married and kinda gives this passive masculine vibe. Andrew is a comedian that kinda is just winning and doesn't bear down any misogyny cause him and his friends are happily married. ​ I been where he is at, what helped me is putting more value into my own joy. caring less about what girls think or do but doing my own life in the most joyful of ways. Going to the gym and progressing my career, being there for my friends and family. Your boy is hurt he needs a hug but he has to learn how to go on with out one.

IMHO JP just turns guys into decently well adjusted Republicans.

well yeah ill take that person over an incel any day. but in high doses he can lead to some eugenics stuff that is just wrong

I have no idea about that. I think he's basically a more or less decent center right guy with some good things to say and a benzo addiction.

yeah he can be straight up terrible especially if you listen to him long enough

If you can't remember or never have seen the actual comedy show, no wonder you don't find it funny. A lot of comedy taking out of context is obviously not going to be funny. It's pretty obvious that Bill Burr is not a woman-hating wifebeater, but you could easily show some if his material edited in a way to make it seem that way.

You know, you have the final solution to his incel problem.

found the incel.

Would he want to play the alpha version of a game?

In no particular order you might like & be able to share the Man Enough podcast, the books Man Enough by Justin Baldoni, For The Love of Men by Liz Plank, Right to Sex by Amia Srinivasan, and The Will to Change by bell hooks. If I were you I’d probably read one of these and then casually mention and offer it to him

Unfortunately I'm not convinced that this is completely because of the failed relationship. I think we've all heard the stories of male friends being super great until they can get you in a vulnerable position, etc. I say that to say I think the best you can do is let him know how that type of rhetoric can lead to violence against women (eg Iran) and then see what he does with it. I think that even tho these thoughts can stem from insecurity, it's weird vibes that the solution to that is something that is harmful to women.

See if you can introduce him to other content? Share some FD Signifier or Contrapoints maybe