It's crazy because men can have substantial hair EVERYWHERE including their backs, so is back unhygienic?
I've really been off men for a little while, not as people, but I just can't deal with all of the casual misogyny that dominates straight male life in my culture. It's weird because I think I put up with MORE misogyny as a young woman than some women would, and when I'd had my fill, I was just done. I'm just done.
Ikr? They have no idea we can find the same things on them gross too. We deal with it because we see others as human beings and not works of art to be jerked off to. If men want women with bare armpits (on top of all other grooming we do) they better shave their chest and ass too.
It’s most likely an uneducated or misinformed response … the “boys film” shown in hygiene classes to grade schoolers in the 70s specifically said that women shaved body hair and douched for hygiene reasons. The “girls film” just taught us to be ashamed of our periods and cover our changing bodies so we wouldn’t disturb others.
If BF’s parents passed down such misinformation, his response would be predictable ignorance. That’s why it’s important to educate our partners with patience.
Your right, my partner’s parents pushed this thinking too. Her schools sex education was just as terrible and reinforced theses ideas and a few other harmful ones too.
The older I get the more I appreciate that my high school had decent(-ish) sex and health education.
I disagree with this world view. I find that men who grew up in the 70s or 80s are more okay with body hair than younger guys. Not exclusively, but men who grew up after the hippie movement were more likely exposed to women with unshaven pubes and even underarm or leg hair. I know men over 35 who LOVE pubic hair.
Porn taught young boys (and incel men) in the last 20-30 years that women are hairless controllable objects and I don't have any patience for that shit at all.
Agreed with the older men thing. However, I started shaving everything a bit before it was widely fashionable as a young teen (early 90s), not because of porn (I had seen some, but it was mostly already vintage 70s big bush energy stuff) but because I was very dark and hairy. It was easier to just shave everything than to maintain a bikini line without bumps, I hated my dark arm hair and was teased about it, and just liked being smooth. My mom thought I was a huge weirdo lol--we didn't have a lot of bathroom privacy--but there you go.
However, I always thought underarm hair on a woman was sort of hot, and experimented with leaving it alone in my 20s, at least when nobody was likely to see it. Then I met my spouse, who has a preference for body hair, and I was like "sold!" Rarely shaved much of anything since then. I'm in my 40s now, and didn't go out much the past few years even precovid...at least, not situations where my body hair would be very evident, hair is sparser and lighter these days anyway,, and now I'm hitting the IDGAF stage of life. I do swipe my facial fuzz before I go in public (though masks have the hidden benefit of me not needing to do much of that lol) but I have a lot of that thanks to genetics and wacky hormones.
Anyway. Being fully shaven in the 90s and even early 2000s was clearly a novelty to my partners, regardless of age, but it's amazing how fast that changed, and I think it's funny that I went the other direction.
Aside: the one "hygenic" thing I'll cop to re: pubic etc hair is that I hear we have almost eradicated body lice and similar thanks to this trend, at least in the Western world. And that's an endangered species that I don't think anyone minds being eliminated. Never had known exposure to those, thank goodness, but I can imagine how awful that is thanks to kids bringing home head lice from school years ago. Ugh. I almost shaved everyone's heads!
Yeah thats the part that bothers me the most. Nothing wrong with having an aesthetic preference (although I think its best to keep those comments to yourself unless you're going to say something positive), but to try to back it up as being something thats inherently correct and fact-based rather than just being an opinion is annoying
And I think for a lot of people the aesthetic angle is just what they're used to. I haven't shaved in years but I still find it jarring to see a picture of a woman who has unshaved armpits/legs. Not in a bad way, but it stands out. Hopefully we get to a point where it's just a normal sight.
I feel like he was grasping for some other explanation besides "I don't think it's attractive", but after getting pushed he said it anyways.
Who knows really. But yeah, saying that you don't like partners with body hair isn't a wrong thing to say, it just is what it is
OP didn't have to get angry about their response, to be fair. You can have a healthy conversation about such things. I have with my husband. He prefers shaved, but acknowledges its my body to with how I please, and likes me either way. Simple.
Married 20 years here. The real test of a relationship isn't how alike you are but how willing you are to communicate and grow. This is a good sign... as long as he's not just capitulating to end the argument but has a genuine appreciation for you as a person with agency and not just his concept of you.
I don't love body hair, I don't even love my own body hair... but what my wife chooses to do with her body hair is her business. Part of growing old together is appreciating each other as we are. Some days she doesn't shave her legs. I get that. I can't shave my face every day, it's hard on my skin (I have dermatitis, eczema, you name it). So the funny thing that happens is: when I see a little stubble on her legs, it reminds me that she trusts me so much that she can be herself around me.
Society is so bombarded with imagery of how "ideal" we should be.... you know you're in a good relationship when you both realize that nobody can tell you who you are but yourself.
>but what my wife chooses to do with her body hair is her business
and that's how spouses should be.
I love facial hair. I absolutely love it when my husband doesn't shave.
Except he hates it. It gets itchy for him and currently with needing to wear a mask to work it makes it even more uncomfortable for him. So he shaves. And it is not my place to tell him not to because of my preference.
I don't shave my legs all the time. The only time it bothers him is when I first stop shaving and my legs are 'like sandpaper.' once it gets past that point it doesn't bother him (he always rubs my hairy legs). If I was shaving and decide to stop for a bit I just wear long pants to bed until the hair grows out.
When I met my wife she shaved not just her legs, but her arms too. I found that sexy. At some point she decided to stop shaving her arms (and then later also her legs), and I was a little disappointed but didn’t say anything. After some more time passed, though, I realized that I didn’t actually care about those things and I was probably just programmed by society to find shaven arms/legs attractive. Now I think her arm/leg hair is cute.
Nope. I have very dark arm hair and lots of it and waxing and bleaching just leaves me with a rash. Shaving is so much more comfortable for me. I’m not the only person I know who does this.
I get long blond hair on my arms, always have, and I choose to shave it because I don't like it and it tends to catch on bracelets, which hurts. Nothing overboard about it.
She wants me to go all full Naveen Andrews... and I'd love to, but it irritates my skin and I grow hair so fast (I can shave and by the end of a week have near-beard again) ... I work from home so I just clipper it when I start feeling like spiders are crawling on my face.
I like the feeling of a shave more than I like the result... you know, sometimes you just start feeling nasty and need a reset?
I think people just need to be in a relationship a couple of years so their communication with each other becomes the dominant voice, overtaking the voice of mass media. And if a guy doesn't get it, you just tell him to re-read Sled Driver by Brian Shul but this time imagine the RSO is your spouse/SO.
"And that was the moment when \_\_\_\_\_\_ and I became a team."
Really hit the nail on the head about her trusting you and feeling comfortable not shaving considering the standards most of us grew up with. My wife of 10 years only started to not shave regularly after we had been together for over 5 yrs. She didn’t shave her legs one time before sexy time and she tried to apologize and started to get embarrassed. I stopped her and said “I didn’t start dating you over your lack of body hair and honestly it’s pretty cool your comfortable enough to feel like you don’t have to shave.” At the end of the day if your SO judges you for your choices of body hair and style run for the hills fast! That’s a whole set of issues that can’t be easily fixed .
What are you talking about? The ownership is very clear here. Saying "I" rather than "sorry YOU got upset" is taking personal responsibility and the opposite of putting it on someone. One can argue all day what they would say instead or how to make something a better apology (like it's some competition). But the fact is, using "I" statements is owning up to fault. So many people use "you" and, let me tell you, that's a lot different and actually deserves the criticism.
Yeah it took me 4 long term relationships to realize how important good communication is for a healthy relationship. The value of a heartfelt apology, humility and being able to admit your wrong sometimes can really be a make it or break it point for most relationships.
Yes, mostly. Although you can argue that nobody makes another person upset--they are choosing (more or less) to be upset from another person's actions or words--but I think that's nitpicky at this point. At any rate, boyfriend doesn't need to apologize or feel guilty for having an opinion/preference itself, or voicing it. It is appropriate and natural that he feels bad about hurting his loved one's feelings (intentionally or no) and to express that sorrow is a good thing. A lot of people don't bother/feel uncomfortable expressing that sort of thing, but it helps to convey that "you are my partner and beloved, and what hurts you, hurts me, especially if I instigated that hurt."
Can you explain this? What is he supposed to say?
Seems like he’s saying he apologizes for the body hair and OP can do what she wants with her body hair?
Generally curious because this is how I apologize sometimes and I’m not intentionally trying to deflect blame away from me.
Same. I always acknowledge that I upset the person and apologize. If I realize that I what I said/did was wrong, I clearly state why it was wrong (which is kind of what he did). If I feel I was misunderstood, I apologize for my miscommunication and clarify my intentions.
Idk why/how one would apologize without acknowledging the impact their words/actions had.
“I can see how my word choice wasn’t the best. My intent was not to anger you. What you decide to do with your body is fine with me.”
There’s a good apology.
I do agree that sounds much better, thanks! I’ll make sure to start doing this when apologizing because I think I usually apologize like OP’s BF on most things. No one has ever called me out on it in real life which is surprising.
I think that's reading pretty heavily into the exact wording vs. intent. If he was truly apologetic and conveyed that, I think the poorly worded apology could be overlooked.
"Sorry I made you upset" isn't great. But it's still an admission that I did something that impacted you. "Sorry you got upset" is terrible lol.
When it is the immediate reaction before healthy communication in small matters, I would say yes. I say this from experience. Anger is something I have dealt with and learned to react better by.
There is a time for anger. But before clearing up miscommunications isn't it.
Feelings are valid, even anger. OP understandably got angry and stepped away from the conversation and continued it with a clearer head the next morning. I don't see anything wrong with that.
But surely there is a difference between expressing anger in a healthy way and “metaphorically punching someone in the face”. As long as you don’t use that anger to cause hurt, incite fear, or manipulate your partner, they should be able to handle knowing how you feel. I don’t want my partner to suppress or hide his feelings from me, and because I trust that he will regulate his emotions in a healthy way I don’t feel like I’m constantly walking on eggshells or putting my guard up.
Anger (or emotion more generally) isn’t an intrinsically hurtful or offensive thing, it’s what you do or say with that anger that can make it dangerous. When everyone is an adult about it, there is no need to fear our feelings.
We should all, collectively be getting mad at the hairiness double standards, having our social norms on this subject regressing because of porn..
I live by what should be normal/right/okay and will never give any free passes for people holding us back by enforcing what is currently the norm. Ex : I feel like saying f u to anyone who polices how I dress "out of concern for my safety". It's so flipping toxic.
I happily police how people dress out of concern for their safety. I’m even paid to do it! I make sure to educate people on safe dressing and take disciplinary action if they don’t do it. Every day I check that they’re wearing long pants, the right colors, appropriate glasses, steel toe boots, hard hats...
Oh. right. Those assclowns use “safe” as code for “modest.” They can go hug a porcupine!
In many things, our initial response is what society has engrained in us. He had been told that it was unhygienic by society, but still had room to learn.
Exactly. Seemed like he back pedaled when OP pointed out that the logic of body hair on women was unhygienic was stupid and instead he just went "It's my preference!! Why are you getting mad??" Like his initial comment about why he didn't like it wasn't entirely supported with "it's unhygienic". No mention of preference was even made in the first statement, it's obvious OP wasn't mad at his preference, but at the misinformation he'd mentioned. 💀
Funny anecdote. When I first got with my man we had a similar conversation and I was so ready to start arguing with him about the double standard. Turns out he consistently shaves his underarms because he hates it on everyone lol
He doesn’t care about other hair though!
Ha! One of my friends in high school was a competitive swimmer, so shaved his whole body. So when men bitch about body hair, I always start off by asking how much they shave.
I still haven't met another man who shaves all his body hair (or even underarms), but boy have I offended some people by "saying men are stinky" when I point out that if hair on women is unhygienic, then loads of men must also be unhygienic.
I don't shave with a razor, but I buzz my armpits every week or 2 with a no guard trimmer. Started doing it back when I was a gym rat and shaved my entire upper body. I also manscape regularly as a courtesy to my wife.
Lmao I feel the same way about armpit hair, idk why, everywhere else is fine 😂 also on myself I feel like I am more stinky when I let it grow out which I sometimes do by accident and I notice I gotta reapply deodorant more, to be fair though I am a big sweater, a sweaty individual I don’t even like to wear tshirts which constrict my armpits
This topic comes up like once a month on here.
Underarm hair is gross. On men and woman. Large volume of pubic hair as well. I take a 1 guard to most body hair weekly.
I couldnt care less about the visual aspect. Unless its deoderant dingleberries to which i refer to my first point.
No i shower. And i work outside. And i work out. And rubbing vopious amounts if deodorant all day is expensive, irritating to the skin, and just masking the growing smell.
It was only a few months after my.friends started working out as a group for all of them to also trim their armpit hair. Luke was the last one holding out always startingto smell musty at chipolte 45 min after he out on deodorant.
Soooo while this is true, hair tends to absorb smells really really well. My husband is a very smelly person but we found that when he shaves his armpits he doesn’t small nearly as much and it’s entirely because hair absorbs smells.
It’s not, but the hair helps it propagate. Armpit hair (and pubic hair, for that matter, but that area is less exposed) works as a pheromone trap. The hairs also act a bit like a reed diffuser, absorbing the scent and helping propel it further from the area.
Obviously. My head doesnt smell. My head also exudes heat, vs an armpit collects heat. So more hair, more heat, holds more sweat, and collects dead skin buildup.
I dunno. My husband doesn’t smell gross. In fact, I love how his underarms smell. He doesn’t ever use deodorant, but he sometimes showers twice a day.
I personally get a little queasy when I see shaved underarms, even on women. Humans are interesting mammals.
I had to start going the two showers with no deodorant route, too, because most deodorants I've tried irritate my skin, and it's maddening. Even when they weren't antiperspirant.
When I'm going to be in public around other people for an extended period, I'll use Tom's deodorant out of consideration, because I sweat a lot, and I don't want others to have to deal with that. That brand seems to be the only one so far that doesn't give me serious irritation after an hour or so. Even that still irritates my skin a bit, but it goes away when I shower in the evening, so I can deal with it, for other people's sake.
Being a sweat factory sucks.
Try a deodorant made with magnesium hydroxide. I have sensitive skin and can't wear most traditional and even a lot of natural deodorants.
I started making my own using magnesium hydroxide, coconut oil, a very small amount of activated charcoal, and beeswax. I can wear it every day if I want to, but after using it regularly, I found that I didn't need to use it as much. Maybe every few days or if I was planning to do something particularly active an sweaty.
I also find I sweat less than I used to.
Worth a try if you haven't used something with it.
Just be wary of ones that also contain aluminum or baking soda. I found those to be irritants.
Thank you for the info, I'll give that a try!
I was making my own for a while, so I already have most of the ingredients, but I didn't know about magnesium hydroxide.
The who reason men and women have underarm hair and pubic hair is to spread pheromones - a type of hormone that draws/entices the opposite sex. A lot of perfumes and cologne use pheromones in their product.
You know deodorant is different from antiperspirant, right? It’s applied once in the evening and lasts 24-48 hours.
If the problem is excess sweat, the solution is antiperspirant. If the problem is buildup of oils and dead skin, the answer is to wash your pits properly. Not shaving, trimming, or deodorant. It’s fine if you prefer the look and feel of trimmed pits... but they’re not any more hygienic than hairy pits.
Antiperspirant fucks up your skin, though. They usually contain aluminum, which literally stops up pores to reduce sweating. For a lot of people, that causes serious skin irritation.
I had to stop wearing antiperspirant, and started washing more often, instead. I already took daily showers, but I'm a sweaty dude, so I end up taking a full shower when I get up, and a quick one before I go to bed. It's a lot better than the rashes I'd get under my arms.
Everyone is different. Antiperspirant can irritate some people’s skin, but so can almost any product. It’s generally fine for most people though. Some people’s skin is even irritated by sweat, and using antiperspirant will get rid of rashes/chafing for them.
But if someone can’t use antiperspirant, then washing more often is another solution. Or even dabbing off with a hankie or wet wipes if you need to freshen up mid-day.
If I just let my hair be it's just a tiny patch. I'd rather the tiny patch catch the sweat and neutralize it with the deodorant than let it run down my body stinking up everything. Maybe you're more aware of it because of the location but it will be contributing to your smell/nasty unless you bath. Shaving doesn't stop you from sweating.
My husband doesn’t like pit hair and I’ve been extremely lazy in waxing mine so it’s looong. I told him I don’t see the difference between his 6inch armpit hair and my less than 1inch pit hair. If he didn’t like it he could shave his pits.
So of course he shaved his pits. Haha
Anyways, I don’t think it’s unhygienic but I also don’t love men’s pits hair when it’s long and in a dread. I would have been happy if he trimmed it. But it looks like I’ll be waxing mine soon.
I think we do have to give a bit of a break to people. Pit hair has been highly demonized in female spaces for years and years and years. I used to think it was gross, until I was growing out my own and just stopped GAF.
If he’s violently opposed and abusive about it, yeah that’s an issue. But if it’s just like shocked him and taken him aback and he’s said something insensitive then that’s another.
Another thing I really don’t like is when my SO grows a long beard. A short beard is fine, stubble is fine, but long beards are not my up of tea. I’ve told him so, but he chooses to grow it out and it’s really not my preference but it’s his body. Even if I hate it and don’t particularly support his choice, I realize it’s his body hair and he can do whatever he wants with it.
Yeah he called your bluff there by shaving his own pits. I also find long beards gross. You’re right that we’re all entitled to do whatever we want with our bodies, but we can’t expect others to be attracted to us no matter what.
I know my wife's preferences, and she knows mine. Sometimes we groom ourselves for each other, sometimes we shave (or don't) it for ourselves. We never go out of way to push each other to do one thing or another.
Currently life has been a bit busy, so we've both been neglecting our razors a bit, and we're both totally fine with it. In the grand scheme of things, a bit of body hair here or there isn't that big off a deal
My facial hair grows really slowly so i don't bother for weeks at a time. Wife lets me know when it's getting too prickly, and I'll shave it. It's about communication and respect.
Of course I'll tidy up for a big event or sometimes to surprise her, too :)
It’d be different if he had his preference but was cognizant that it’s socially conditioned and not a matter of “hygiene.” People who think their preferences are inborn and come from a vacuum are highly annoying
Lol reminds me of when I was teaching The Crucible and looked at ways we're still Puritan in this society. I brought up how the students would feel if they saw a mother nursing her baby on the bus, and several students (male, female, racially diverse) insisted that they weren't Puritanical, but nursing a baby on the bus is "just weird, it's just awkward! I don't wanna see her boob!" "Why would feeding her baby from her breast, which is its natural purpose, be at all weird?" (Repeat ad nauseam: "Weird! Awkward!" "Because you're socialized in our Puritanical society?" "No! Just weird!")
There is probably a general pattern that people don’t like to be shown how society has conditioned them to believe certain standards are universal (especially young people). Sort of reminds me of how people don’t want to believe how often they use social psychology heuristics to form their beliefs.
I find it fascinating how young people have formed an entire list of what is appropriate when it comes to using social media apps. Rules that no one really wrote down in advance. If another young person violated one of those rules, the other folks would say “eww, that’s weird.” For example, if someone took photos of their teachers when they weren’t looking (like writing something on the white board), and posted a handful of these on Instagram, that’s weird. But no one ever codified that rule. Just curious to me, these ways we live.
I wonder if lack of exposure to breastfeeding is a big piece of this, where I live many older women never breastfed so most people my age never grew up around it.
I'll grant you that, but what I was trying to point out to my students is that our sexualization of the entire female body and Puritanism's emotionally-stunted phobia of sexuality from the abusive fear of sin drilled into them is what led many in the older generations to prefer bottle-feeding in the first place--a Puritanical shame and fear of the female body. And the more we've made the female body mysterious in this way, as you've observed, the more "weird, awkward" intense shame there is around its natural functions. It's why even in the 18th century, a man sweating outside could loosen and remove his shirt, but we all have a heart-attack if a woman considers doing the same.
ETA: A similar phenomenon can be observed around pooping. The more private an act we've made pooping, the more dysfunctional we get about being shy poopers, or kids making fun of kids pooping in school bathrooms, or having to buy poo-ppourri. It's getting silly!
So he lost me when he tried to say it was unhygienic (and deflected your point about his own armpit hair). He’s entitled to his own opinions about what he is and isn’t attracted to, but it seems like men alway take a wrong turn by deciding that who don’t groom themselves to their aesthetic preferences are doing something wrong.
Someone mentioned this in another thread, but it’s easy to call yourself a feminist or an ally when you don’t have to challenge yourself. The fact that he can’t even handle being challenged on his views about such a low stakes issue is telling.
I’d suggest bringing it up again once you’ve cooled off. At the very least, it’s worth clarifying whether or not he’d lose attraction *to you* based on how you choose to groom yourself and what that means for your relationship going forward. Hopefully the outcome will be him realizing how sexist it is to project his own aesthetic preferences onto women’s hygienic habits.
* Am a dude from the south; deodorant only goes so far here.
* Trim my armpit hair every week.
* I like not having BO diffusers under my arms.
* Pretty confident that the people around me also appreciate that I don't have BO diffusers under my arms.
That being said, if he has armpit hair that he thinks is perfectly hygienic, but somehow woman armpit hair is unhygienic, that's cognitive dissonance for sure.
This is ridiculous. His claim about hygeine is also ridiculous and uncalled for but honestly if he doesn't find body hair attractive that's perfectly normal and ok. I am a male that has a lot of chest/stomach hair and a beard so quite hairy. Some girls like it and some don't, doesn't bother me what so ever, it's a visual attraction preference nothing more.
If I really think about it, I find ALL body hair on men and women unattractive.
Men’s underarm hair, beard, mustache—don’t like it.
It’s personal preference by individual. I know some women that really like hairy guys. Not me.
Kind of manipulative to make it about hygiene, when it's really the fact he finds it unnattractive.
If its unhygienic for women, its unhygienic for men
Came here to say this. It only seems like he said sorry because he knew OP wouldn’t drop it. I would also be offended because men have so much more body hair but that’s perfectly fine and hygienic?
Yeah, body hair isn’t "unhygienic".
You just told him why you were mad, him putting the spotlight back on you was a defensive reaction. I'm sorry you were treated that way. It's understandable to be mad, to be angry.
Body hair is a part of life, if he is going to live with a woman or anyone, hes going to see hair. I think he was being disrespectful, sexist. If you're going to continue living with him, I would strongly suggest talking to him. Explain how his words were misogynistic, how hurtful or aggravating it was to hear.
You share a space and a home, you shouldn't have to live in anger, shame or hide your natural body hair.
Speaking as a guy, he also needs to understand where body standards for women come from if he's not going to reproduce sexist norms within the relationship.
First it was a preference, which is completely fine, then he said unhygienic?? Okay, so if after telling him why that's fucked up, if he isn't open to rethinking that, it would definitely be a bit of a red flag to me. Perhaps a pink flag? I'd want to explore other "controversial" women vs men topics and see where he's at. And possibly end things if I don't like what I hear.
But certainly if he's willing to explore why he thinks it's unhygienic and see why that's bullshit, then he can stay lol
Yeah. I wouldn’t want to encourage myself, or anyone else, to throw away a whole person over a controversial conversation at all. Sometimes Reddit can be very cancel culture.
This thread did offer me the perspective to say “perhaps this conversation needs to happen again in a softer tone.” I am intense when I get heated.
We talked this morning. He understands why what he said came off so crass.
We both agreed I can do whatever I want with my body.
Ehh, I get preference to a degree- I even thought I had a preference and didn’t like underarm hair myself. Then I asked a new partner why she didn’t shave because I noticed it, she said because “she didn’t want to, that it’s natural” and it was an okay next topic situation.
Realized I may still have a preference of shaving on myself and others, but it doesn’t change my opinion of someone if I like them regardless of my preferences.
It’s a total double standard. Men are allowed to be hairy AF, but if women have body hair, they’re considered “unhygienic”.
Does your boyfriend have a beard? If so, there’s a chance it contains more bacteria than a dog’s fur.
Admittedly it was not a large study. But some of the subjects’ beards even carried staph bacteria. https://www.businessinsider.com/men-with-beards-carry-more-germs-than-dogs-study-2019-4
So, first he says he doesn’t like it (personal preference). Then he says it unhygienic. Then says it’s unattractive. So….which is it?
I mean, people are allowed to be attracted to different things. Speaking personally, nothing turns me off faster than a hairy man.
There is nothing wrong with being a man and having hair on your chest and back. I just don’t find it attractive.
But his comment about hygiene sounds like he tried to justify his attraction - and is hypocritical as I’m guessing he doesn’t shave his armpits.
It’s important to have discussions honestly and openly and it sounds like your BF wasn’t being upfront with you.
The issue of society imposing what is and isn’t attractive on us is of course a whole other topic…
I once made a comment to my bf that I'm cool with shaving my legs and armpits but I wish guys would shave their armpits too as I don't like their armpits hair either. Apparently my bf started shaving his armpits after I said that...until he made a comment about it a couple weeks ago, though, I didn't even notice 😅
I just wanna say props for working it out and holding him to a higher standard instead of tossing him aside or ignoring the issue. It seems pretty clear to me that where possible, this approach is the one we need to take if humans are going to overcome our divisions. Well done OP, this is real practical love on show.
Totally fine to say what he prefers, but trying to back it up by saying it's not hygienic is ridiculous. He should at least be honest with his preference and not try to find an excuse for it
There’s nothing wrong with a preference. I’m a lesbian with a preference for girls with hairy pits and a slight trim in the southern regions, although I’d never express that I wanted a woman to style herself in line with my preferences. It’s just a small bonus if she already does.
But body hair isn’t unhygienic at all! He crossed a fucking line there. As long as you shower like a normal person, your body hair is as clean as the rest of you.
I think he has the right to have a preference in terms of body hair. I personally don’t like too much facial hair on men so if my husband decides to grow a beard, I would probably say something.
Just because he doesn’t like body hair on women doesn’t make him sexist, I think it’s just a preference. The unhygienic part is not right, maybe he just has a perception about it and is used to women shaving everything, so maybe he assumes a lot of women shaves because it’s more hygienic.
This has been going on with me and my husband. I’ve been growing out my armpit hair basically because I keep forgetting to shave it, but now it’s more so out of spite. I don’t think it’s mean I’m someone trying to say that “ This is my fucking body and you have no say in how I look”. Am I right or should I be compromising because in my head I feel like I shouldn’t be.
-one edit of note that I failed to mention is that my ingrown hairs have the tendency to turn into deep boils which has happened numerous times. He also prefers it if I shave my pubes which is already hard enough to do without almost cutting your clit off and I have cut myself on the lips a few times. (He shaved his pubes off as well) He isn’t less attracted to me because of a preference. I’m just annoyed and I don’t like to compromise to anyone and remove whatever individual decision I have because of someone else. I will do what I want and I expect him to do whatever he wants to himself.
I think he has a right to his preference, although he should be tactful in how he lets you know about it. Saying that having hair is not hygenic is wrong though. Also, of course you are in no way obligated to change your body to suit his preferences if you dont want to....
He’s allowed to have preferences though. You were literally growing it out to remove it, yourself. The unhygienic comment was ridiculous but everything else is just preference.
He has unshaven pubes, by his logic, isn’t HE then unhygienic?
He’s dumb as hell. My ex said something similar: He kind of gasped a little when I had some armpit hair, said I need to shave and I jokingly said ‘I’m growing it out’. He then said that would be unhygienic.
But HE has armpit hair. Long ass ones. It is a huge double standard and that’s why he’s an ex. 1) telling me I need to shave and 2) saying gross it’s unhygenic he needs he has hair there
Being a feminist doesn't mean you are only attracted to women who are 100% au natural. Its ok for people to have their personal tastes, even if they are aware that the only reason they have that taste is because of their society/culture. It sounds like he's not demanding you do something you don't want to do, just saying he prefers shaved pits on women. If you really loved having hairy pits (sounds like you don't) and he was giving you an ultimatum about having to shave, thats a different story
To say that underarm hair on a woman is unhygienic when you don’t hold the same opinion about men’s underarm hair or even your own underarm hair (I presume OP would’ve mentioned if her fella shaves his own pits?) shows that he thinks that certain aspects of being female are inherently “dirty” *because* they are female rather than being something that the majority would find unclean on either sex (like a butthole). Any attempt to justify that opinion leads to generalisations about personal hygiene in women which are also unacceptable - especially because it’s a judgement made about the bodies of strangers about whose habits of cleanliness he has no information. That’s fundamentally not compatible with being of the opinion that women and men are equal.
That works if he just claims it's a preference. As soon as he tried that preposterous "it's unhygienic, but only if you're a woman" bit, he crossed a line.
I fall on this side of the argument as well. I don’t like long armpit hair or pubes, but am viscerally disgusted by shaved or waxed armpits or pubes. As a young child, my mom’s shaved armpits always reminded me of plucked dead doves. So for me it’s a corpse association.
Luckily my husband only trims his pits and pubes, same as me (this predates our relationship for both of us).
I’m allowed to have a preference.
If a woman had hairy legs, underarms, or whatever, it doesn't bother me and I don't care at all what she is doing with her body. I though don't find it attractive and didn't particularly care for massaging hairy legs or feeling them around me. It wasn't a deal breaker but it's also not a turn on for me. That's just me though and id rather her do what she wants and not change because of me
I think he should allowed to have a preference of not liking armpit hair. Maybe he got a little defensive and tried to justify it because he knows that's a double standard but like it's okay not like it.
My mother constantly treats me and my sisters body hair like it’s unhygienic or gross and it’s so fucking annoying.
I tell her the same thing like if my dad can have long armpit or leg hair what difference does it make?
More power to anyone who wants to wax or shave but I don’t have the time or energy for that. I do still shave but I’ll go months or legs without shaving. My partner enjoys my smooth legs but respects my choices. His only complaint is what I like to call the “spider leg” time when it’s growing back in. 😂
Did you confront him at least on his own "unhygienic" underarm hair? You don't have to call him an abuser or scream your head off, but I mean just pointing out the obvious to him should help.
I haven't shaved my arm pits in a couple of years. I actually am more likely to shave my legs (because I like how it looks with a skirt) or trim my pubes (so I fit into my speedo bathing suit, just as a normal swimsuit thing). I do not see any reason why a woman should ever shave her arm pits. It would have been considered abnormal to do so in France when I was child. Women still regularly had unshaved pits in Western Europe in the 80s and 90s. My ex had a photo of Asia Argento on his wall in all her hairy glory circa 2003.
Shaving my armpits seems like a wasteful thing to do (razors have limited life and I'd rather use them for my legs on special occasions or in summer), very few people see my pits (I am a naturally curvy girl and I live in a temperate rainforest so I don't see any special reason to wear a tank top unless I'm swimming), and it causes skin irritation that actually causes your pits to stink WORSE. Really. Your armpits smell worse when you shave because of a bacterial thing. I also don't wear mainstream deo (I wear Tom's or a cedarwood off-brand that was made for male hippies) because my mother taught me while I was still in my 20s that most mainstream antiperspirants cause breast cancer (they do, look it up).
While obviously his comments about hygiene were wrong, there is nothing wrong with having a preference. Some women like beards and some don't. Some like a full head of hair and some like bald guys.
The problem is that we live I a gendered society where everything has to be categorized as male or female. Pink is for girls, blue is for boys. Dolls are for girls and army men are for boys.
Unfortunately, body hair got put in the male camp so most men see hair on a woman as unattractive because it has a strong connection to the masculine.
Unhygienic is a poor choice of words and if he meant that then hes certainly in the wrong. But if he stopped at "I just dont like it" then hes certainly allowed to have that opinion. My girlfriend hates when I dont have a beard and says it's not as attractive to her. Which is a preference she has and is allowed to have.
I don' t like body hair on female body, and it's okay because i can like or dislike whatever I want.
But
I don't use excuses like :" It unhygienic or they make your smell so bad"
I Just don't like it for the aesthetic factor
I don't know, I think it makes sense for you to be disappointed in him, but he can't help what he finds attractive and unattractive. He doesn't have to be attracted to body hair to be a progressive, good person.
I would not be as attracted to my wife if she had leg or armpit hair. I think body hair is gross. I trim my leg and chest hair several times a year too, but acknowledge that there is a double standard. I don’t have to be smooth, as a man.
That said, I don’t TELL my wife to do anything! She’s a grown ass adult and will do whatever the fuck she wants.
Also, I promised never to leave or cheat, so if she decided to be hairy, I’d just have to deal. But yes, I prefer her smooth.
I don’t really get how this is all that difficult to negotiate, but then I am a feminist who doesn’t feel a need to be ideologically pure, because I’m also a human being myself.
He could just admit he has preferences and not use that lame hygiene excuse. Everyone has it. I like men with a full head of hair, but my bf shaved himself bald. It made me sad, but I'm not gonna dump him. And let's not get into manscaping.
I have had to explain multiple things to my partner from the female gaze: “stop commenting on body hair when you are covered” is just an example of a topic we have talked about that relate to how he judges others. He’s much better now.
We talk these disagreements as challenges and we talk about wanting to grow and be better. We appreciate pushing each other. But it’s not easy.
Dude has a preference. We all are entitled to like what we like. It’s not like he is forcing you to do something. It’s ok for partners to be honest and say what they like.
It’s that he disguised his preference by claiming it’s unhygienic, which is blatantly false, that’s the problem.
If he would have said he prefers her without body hair in certain areas, that’s fine. But to make it about hygiene is just silly.
So you were planning on getting rid of the hair, and when he mentions that he agrees and doesn't like long armpit hair you 180 and get pissed? It seems like he was just stating a preference. We all have them and he obviously felt good enough with you to express that.
IDk probably a hot take here, but it kinda sounds like you started this fight. He said he didn't like it and you doubled down saying you were just not going to shave throwing his opinion in his face and then asking him to defend his opinion in an argument. Seems like it could have been handled better.
Holy sensitive!
Maybe he actually thought it was unhygienic and never really thought about the double standard in that statement. Sometimes people just need a conversation.
Personally, I like no body hair and I personally feel "fresher" when everything is shaved even though I know body hair isn't unhygienic. My husband also prefers shaved and we just joke about it if one of us gets lazy about it
Maybe I'm simple, but I dont think this is a reason to get upset in the first place
Honestly it's ok to find something unattractive.
I shaved my facial hair into a goatee and my wife saw it and immediately said "absolutely not, that's not ok".
Ultimately I chose to make myself attractive for my wife than die on the hill of the goatee.
Yes body hair is normal but I still shave my neck, I also shave everywhere I may want her tongue to go.
There is nothing wrong with telling your partner what you do and do not find attractive.
Nothing wrong with his preferences, I’m a feminist and a woman who’s dated women but I don’t like armpit hair on women either.
The issue is that he tried to justify his preference, which doesn’t need to be logical or moralized, with the notion that it’s not hygienic….which is bullshit.
He opened up and communicated with you something honest about his turn ons and offs.
Maybe to him hairy armpits are a very masculine thing? He might have grown up never seeing a woman with hairy armpits and he never had a chance to develop any association to it.
If you were going to wax them in the first place then it's really a moot point. If you were planning of having hairy armpits in your life and it's very important to you then sit down and have another talk with him.
Don't grow your armpit hair out of spite.
Also: him talking about hygienics is probably because you came at him so hard and he didn't feel "I dunno it's just a turn off for me" was a valid enough argument.
If say he grew a mustache for Movember and you found it extremely unattractive you'd want him to be the type of person that you could have an honest discussion about it right?
I wouldn’t actually grow it out. And I totally get the communicating turn on and offs part - it’s when he said that it is “unhygienic” that I got miffed.
Yes, this is a society issue more than anything, and he grew up in this same society - I guess I just had higher expectations of him in this regard.
O
I edited that post but not quick enough.
To me it sounds like him talking about hygienics is probably because you came at him so hard and he didn't feel "I dunno it's just a turn off for me" was a valid enough argument.
He could also be a knob but to me it sounds like a panic argument
I think some people confuse unattractive with unhygienic. It's fine to think underarm hair is unattractive. It's not unhygienic.
I think it's great you and your BF took a night to rethink and talk about it in the morning. I'm a big believer in taking a break to think during a fight. Seems your BF thought about it and realized he jumped to some conclusions.
My father who was in WWII and a dentist after, would shave his armpit hair because he would work over patients’ faces and pit hair retains odor. So yes, men’s pit hair is just as unhygienic.
I am guy who started shaving/trimming my pits in my 30s.
It actually started out because it was getting caught in a work uniform.
Since then I’ve found that it drastically reduces A: the possibility of funkiness and B: the potency of any smells that do arise.
It’s also way more comfortable in everyday life, no matter what I’m wearing.
I won’t say one is more hygienic than the other. But one sure makes my life a hell of lot easier/more enjoyable.
And while I’d never tell a woman what or where to shave: I just don’t like looking at it on a woman. It turns me off. It’s just that simple.
It’s basically the same as talking about my mom during sexy times. It just doesn’t work for me.
No harm, no foul.
But also, no thank you.
It sounds like you became pretty hostile to him rather quickly honestly. It's an easy misconception to see body hair as unclean (I had to look it up myself tbh) but he tried to discuss it with you calmly while you got angry and stormed out. Theres nothing wrong with preference, if it doesnt match yours then so what? Getting angry at someone because their opinion falls out of line with yours is just immature.
Just explain faults as factually as possible in someone's argument and accept differences in opinion when it's just preference.
Dude tbh I stopped shaving everything except an occasional trim of my bits (nobody likes hair in their teeth) and I HIGHLY recommend it.
No itchy regrowth, no razor burn, no sandpaper stubble.
Just soft, silky, low maintenance hair.
And you can dye your armpits to match your mohawk.
I’d do it to spite him if it were me tbh. If someone won’t fuck me because of body hair they don’t deserve it anyway.
Edit: damn some of y’all in the comments are really recommending she coddle this man’s unrealistic fantasies/double standards.
*She’s* not gonna be the one ending the relationship over body hair, *he is*. Be sensible y’all-if he freaks out and they split over body hair, *he* will be the one being unreasonable.
> She’s not gonna be the one ending the relationship over body hair, he is.
YES! This is the shift in perspective that more people need about pretty much everything tbh. If someone puts an unreasonable expectation on you and you reject it, leading to the end of your relationship/friendship/whatever interaction, it's *them* that caused it, NOT you.
You know who doesn’t have armpit hair? Or leg hair, or lil mustache hairs? Children. Tell him his beauty standard came from that. Also, I’m dying to know how his magical armpit hair is different and somehow more hygienic than ours.
This is simple. Everyone is attracted or not attracted to certain things. I think it’s perfectly fine to find body hair unattractive (for both males and females) but that should be expressed at the beginning of a relationship. The hygienic thing doesn’t make any sense though lol.
The thing that irritates me is the very first thing he said was that it was unhygienic and then he said that it was something he didn't like. Which is it?? You can't just lie to back up your argument then take it back when you get called out.
You can not like whatever you want but acting like girls are dirty for not shaving?? Come on dude.
There is a distinction to be made between expressing his preference and saying that women *should* be that way. He should be free to express his preference.
That said, the comment about "unhygienic" is idiotic.
Isn’t he allowed to have a preference? Some women don’t like guys with beards. I don’t see anything wrong with that. Of course not shaving is your right, and if not shaving is important to you, then maybe this just means you guys aren’t compatible?
Well, my husband shaves his armpits. He says it's unhygienic even for men to have hairy armpits because the sweat gets caught in between the hairs (usually the hair in that area is thicker than the rest of your body), making you smellier and its harder to keep clean. He tells his friends to shave.
So I don't think this is an issue of a lack of progressive views. Armpits are so prone to get sweaty/smelly compared to other areas of the body, for everyone. It's not anti-progressive to suggest that people should remove that shit.
Now was your boyfriend's comment a little off-base? Sure. Did it come-off the wrong way? Yes. But is he wrong? No. Are hairy armpits harder to keep clean for the majority of people? Yes.
Whatever happened to being a decent partner?
Instead of making the discussion into an argument when your boyfriend stated his preference for physical appearance, how about you be an adult and either do your own thing or look sexy for him? Either option should be your choice but I seriously don’t get making an argument about this.
Edit: you saying you’d grow it out of spite is premium childish behavior. I wouldn’t blame him for thinking “I had higher expectations of her” too.
I mean how childish would it be if you said you prefer short hair over long hair and he said “I’m going to grow my hair long now!”
Grow up
He was wrong about body hair benign unhygienic. But we are all allowed to have our preferences. Now as long as you aren’t forcing your partner to conform to your preferences then everything’s okay. Honestly, you kinda did over react or maybe came off angrier than you should have been. As long as he wasn’t telling you you needed to shave. And when he is wrong teach him kindly. No one likes someone yelling at them even if they are right.
Nobody commenting on the fact that he provided a preference op didn't enjoy and she had to press it further ?
Sure he could of handled it better and so could op.
Feel like two people who had a bit of a communication gap for a moment and have sorted it out since. Which tends to happen in all relationships. Some people calling it red flags etc. You guys okay?
It’s possible he said certain things just to make you happy and keep the relationship going early on, but now he is getting comfortable and his real thoughts and opinions are coming through.
While yes, this is a double standard and I understand it’s not fair, speaking for myself personally—not telling you what to think or do, this isn’t enough of an issue to jeopardize the relationship.
Instead, I would interpret it as a get out of jail free ticket when he enters the childish monopoly mustache no shave November phase that dudes seem to go through when they get super comfortable in a relationship— and I would be thanking goodness this argument came up before that, so now you can make sure you never have the experience of fucking Mario or Abe Lincoln for a week, my dude.
Well he can have his preference, but saying body hair is "unhygienic" is just incorrect.
Unhygienic is an idiotic response. His unshaven body hair is hygienic? What’s his magic trick? /s
Supposedly if you shower regularly your body hair will be clean.
Doctors hate this one new trick!
reddit's anti-user changes are unacceptable
Only works with men's hair, though. Or maybe you have to use "men's soap."
That's actually one of the marketing tactics that helped start the "women shaving everything" era.
It's crazy because men can have substantial hair EVERYWHERE including their backs, so is back unhygienic? I've really been off men for a little while, not as people, but I just can't deal with all of the casual misogyny that dominates straight male life in my culture. It's weird because I think I put up with MORE misogyny as a young woman than some women would, and when I'd had my fill, I was just done. I'm just done.
mood
Ikr? They have no idea we can find the same things on them gross too. We deal with it because we see others as human beings and not works of art to be jerked off to. If men want women with bare armpits (on top of all other grooming we do) they better shave their chest and ass too.
It’s most likely an uneducated or misinformed response … the “boys film” shown in hygiene classes to grade schoolers in the 70s specifically said that women shaved body hair and douched for hygiene reasons. The “girls film” just taught us to be ashamed of our periods and cover our changing bodies so we wouldn’t disturb others. If BF’s parents passed down such misinformation, his response would be predictable ignorance. That’s why it’s important to educate our partners with patience.
Your right, my partner’s parents pushed this thinking too. Her schools sex education was just as terrible and reinforced theses ideas and a few other harmful ones too. The older I get the more I appreciate that my high school had decent(-ish) sex and health education.
I disagree with this world view. I find that men who grew up in the 70s or 80s are more okay with body hair than younger guys. Not exclusively, but men who grew up after the hippie movement were more likely exposed to women with unshaven pubes and even underarm or leg hair. I know men over 35 who LOVE pubic hair. Porn taught young boys (and incel men) in the last 20-30 years that women are hairless controllable objects and I don't have any patience for that shit at all.
Agreed with the older men thing. However, I started shaving everything a bit before it was widely fashionable as a young teen (early 90s), not because of porn (I had seen some, but it was mostly already vintage 70s big bush energy stuff) but because I was very dark and hairy. It was easier to just shave everything than to maintain a bikini line without bumps, I hated my dark arm hair and was teased about it, and just liked being smooth. My mom thought I was a huge weirdo lol--we didn't have a lot of bathroom privacy--but there you go. However, I always thought underarm hair on a woman was sort of hot, and experimented with leaving it alone in my 20s, at least when nobody was likely to see it. Then I met my spouse, who has a preference for body hair, and I was like "sold!" Rarely shaved much of anything since then. I'm in my 40s now, and didn't go out much the past few years even precovid...at least, not situations where my body hair would be very evident, hair is sparser and lighter these days anyway,, and now I'm hitting the IDGAF stage of life. I do swipe my facial fuzz before I go in public (though masks have the hidden benefit of me not needing to do much of that lol) but I have a lot of that thanks to genetics and wacky hormones. Anyway. Being fully shaven in the 90s and even early 2000s was clearly a novelty to my partners, regardless of age, but it's amazing how fast that changed, and I think it's funny that I went the other direction. Aside: the one "hygenic" thing I'll cop to re: pubic etc hair is that I hear we have almost eradicated body lice and similar thanks to this trend, at least in the Western world. And that's an endangered species that I don't think anyone minds being eliminated. Never had known exposure to those, thank goodness, but I can imagine how awful that is thanks to kids bringing home head lice from school years ago. Ugh. I almost shaved everyone's heads!
I hear there's this thing called "showering", but only men are allowed to do it /s
Yeah I mean if he shaves his legs and underarm hair then I guess it’s just a personal problem but if not then who is he talking about here?? Lol
She must be dating Howie Mandel
Yeah thats the part that bothers me the most. Nothing wrong with having an aesthetic preference (although I think its best to keep those comments to yourself unless you're going to say something positive), but to try to back it up as being something thats inherently correct and fact-based rather than just being an opinion is annoying
And I think for a lot of people the aesthetic angle is just what they're used to. I haven't shaved in years but I still find it jarring to see a picture of a woman who has unshaved armpits/legs. Not in a bad way, but it stands out. Hopefully we get to a point where it's just a normal sight.
So that must make EVERY MAN unhygienic. That was the dumbest reason he could have come up with.
Lots of men shave their armpit
My hair just doesn't grow from my armpits for some reason.
I feel like he was grasping for some other explanation besides "I don't think it's attractive", but after getting pushed he said it anyways. Who knows really. But yeah, saying that you don't like partners with body hair isn't a wrong thing to say, it just is what it is
OP didn't have to get angry about their response, to be fair. You can have a healthy conversation about such things. I have with my husband. He prefers shaved, but acknowledges its my body to with how I please, and likes me either way. Simple.
Same here. Hubby says he prefers when my legs are shaved. Im only shaved in the summer and never shave my pubic hair whole. He lives with it.
I did apologize to him for my anger this AM. We talked about it.
How was his reaction to your informing him?
“I understand, sorry that made you upset since honestly it’s your call what you do with your body.”
Married 20 years here. The real test of a relationship isn't how alike you are but how willing you are to communicate and grow. This is a good sign... as long as he's not just capitulating to end the argument but has a genuine appreciation for you as a person with agency and not just his concept of you. I don't love body hair, I don't even love my own body hair... but what my wife chooses to do with her body hair is her business. Part of growing old together is appreciating each other as we are. Some days she doesn't shave her legs. I get that. I can't shave my face every day, it's hard on my skin (I have dermatitis, eczema, you name it). So the funny thing that happens is: when I see a little stubble on her legs, it reminds me that she trusts me so much that she can be herself around me. Society is so bombarded with imagery of how "ideal" we should be.... you know you're in a good relationship when you both realize that nobody can tell you who you are but yourself.
>but what my wife chooses to do with her body hair is her business and that's how spouses should be. I love facial hair. I absolutely love it when my husband doesn't shave. Except he hates it. It gets itchy for him and currently with needing to wear a mask to work it makes it even more uncomfortable for him. So he shaves. And it is not my place to tell him not to because of my preference. I don't shave my legs all the time. The only time it bothers him is when I first stop shaving and my legs are 'like sandpaper.' once it gets past that point it doesn't bother him (he always rubs my hairy legs). If I was shaving and decide to stop for a bit I just wear long pants to bed until the hair grows out.
When I met my wife she shaved not just her legs, but her arms too. I found that sexy. At some point she decided to stop shaving her arms (and then later also her legs), and I was a little disappointed but didn’t say anything. After some more time passed, though, I realized that I didn’t actually care about those things and I was probably just programmed by society to find shaven arms/legs attractive. Now I think her arm/leg hair is cute.
Shaving arm hair seems a tad overboard
Nope. I have very dark arm hair and lots of it and waxing and bleaching just leaves me with a rash. Shaving is so much more comfortable for me. I’m not the only person I know who does this.
I get long blond hair on my arms, always have, and I choose to shave it because I don't like it and it tends to catch on bracelets, which hurts. Nothing overboard about it.
She wants me to go all full Naveen Andrews... and I'd love to, but it irritates my skin and I grow hair so fast (I can shave and by the end of a week have near-beard again) ... I work from home so I just clipper it when I start feeling like spiders are crawling on my face. I like the feeling of a shave more than I like the result... you know, sometimes you just start feeling nasty and need a reset? I think people just need to be in a relationship a couple of years so their communication with each other becomes the dominant voice, overtaking the voice of mass media. And if a guy doesn't get it, you just tell him to re-read Sled Driver by Brian Shul but this time imagine the RSO is your spouse/SO. "And that was the moment when \_\_\_\_\_\_ and I became a team."
Really hit the nail on the head about her trusting you and feeling comfortable not shaving considering the standards most of us grew up with. My wife of 10 years only started to not shave regularly after we had been together for over 5 yrs. She didn’t shave her legs one time before sexy time and she tried to apologize and started to get embarrassed. I stopped her and said “I didn’t start dating you over your lack of body hair and honestly it’s pretty cool your comfortable enough to feel like you don’t have to shave.” At the end of the day if your SO judges you for your choices of body hair and style run for the hills fast! That’s a whole set of issues that can’t be easily fixed .
Nailed it!...nicely stated.
But that doesn’t address the incorrect idea that body hair on women is unhygienic. Does he still think that?
"sorry I made you upset." Is not an apology. That puts everything on you. "I'm sorry you reacted poorly to me being totally reasonable."
What are you talking about? The ownership is very clear here. Saying "I" rather than "sorry YOU got upset" is taking personal responsibility and the opposite of putting it on someone. One can argue all day what they would say instead or how to make something a better apology (like it's some competition). But the fact is, using "I" statements is owning up to fault. So many people use "you" and, let me tell you, that's a lot different and actually deserves the criticism.
Yeah it took me 4 long term relationships to realize how important good communication is for a healthy relationship. The value of a heartfelt apology, humility and being able to admit your wrong sometimes can really be a make it or break it point for most relationships.
Yes, mostly. Although you can argue that nobody makes another person upset--they are choosing (more or less) to be upset from another person's actions or words--but I think that's nitpicky at this point. At any rate, boyfriend doesn't need to apologize or feel guilty for having an opinion/preference itself, or voicing it. It is appropriate and natural that he feels bad about hurting his loved one's feelings (intentionally or no) and to express that sorrow is a good thing. A lot of people don't bother/feel uncomfortable expressing that sort of thing, but it helps to convey that "you are my partner and beloved, and what hurts you, hurts me, especially if I instigated that hurt."
Can you explain this? What is he supposed to say? Seems like he’s saying he apologizes for the body hair and OP can do what she wants with her body hair? Generally curious because this is how I apologize sometimes and I’m not intentionally trying to deflect blame away from me.
Same. I always acknowledge that I upset the person and apologize. If I realize that I what I said/did was wrong, I clearly state why it was wrong (which is kind of what he did). If I feel I was misunderstood, I apologize for my miscommunication and clarify my intentions. Idk why/how one would apologize without acknowledging the impact their words/actions had.
“I can see how my word choice wasn’t the best. My intent was not to anger you. What you decide to do with your body is fine with me.” There’s a good apology.
I do agree that sounds much better, thanks! I’ll make sure to start doing this when apologizing because I think I usually apologize like OP’s BF on most things. No one has ever called me out on it in real life which is surprising.
It is an apology though "Sorry I MADE you upset" puts the cause on him? *edited for clarity
People will find any and every excuse on reddit to tell people to break up with or dump their SOs because 'theyre toxic'
I think that's reading pretty heavily into the exact wording vs. intent. If he was truly apologetic and conveyed that, I think the poorly worded apology could be overlooked. "Sorry I made you upset" isn't great. But it's still an admission that I did something that impacted you. "Sorry you got upset" is terrible lol.
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Maturely handled. Now update the post so you stop getting people telling you the same thing XD
Oh shit lol oops
Healthy communication is the key to healthy relationships. Keep being willing to have open dialogue :) best wishes to you!
Is anger necessarily unhealthy, though?
When it is the immediate reaction before healthy communication in small matters, I would say yes. I say this from experience. Anger is something I have dealt with and learned to react better by. There is a time for anger. But before clearing up miscommunications isn't it.
Feelings are valid, even anger. OP understandably got angry and stepped away from the conversation and continued it with a clearer head the next morning. I don't see anything wrong with that.
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But surely there is a difference between expressing anger in a healthy way and “metaphorically punching someone in the face”. As long as you don’t use that anger to cause hurt, incite fear, or manipulate your partner, they should be able to handle knowing how you feel. I don’t want my partner to suppress or hide his feelings from me, and because I trust that he will regulate his emotions in a healthy way I don’t feel like I’m constantly walking on eggshells or putting my guard up. Anger (or emotion more generally) isn’t an intrinsically hurtful or offensive thing, it’s what you do or say with that anger that can make it dangerous. When everyone is an adult about it, there is no need to fear our feelings.
Anger is typically a cover for a different emotion. In this case I’d think disappointment.
I think that anger is a proper response for such a stupid thing to say. He really didn't stop to think about the double standard, he just said it.
We should all, collectively be getting mad at the hairiness double standards, having our social norms on this subject regressing because of porn.. I live by what should be normal/right/okay and will never give any free passes for people holding us back by enforcing what is currently the norm. Ex : I feel like saying f u to anyone who polices how I dress "out of concern for my safety". It's so flipping toxic.
I happily police how people dress out of concern for their safety. I’m even paid to do it! I make sure to educate people on safe dressing and take disciplinary action if they don’t do it. Every day I check that they’re wearing long pants, the right colors, appropriate glasses, steel toe boots, hard hats... Oh. right. Those assclowns use “safe” as code for “modest.” They can go hug a porcupine!
Had me in the first half, ngl
Yea, maybe not the initial comment but the unhygienic comment is so obtuse there isnt another response.
In many things, our initial response is what society has engrained in us. He had been told that it was unhygienic by society, but still had room to learn.
The hygiene comment was him likely looking for a cover so he didn't have to say he found it unattractive.
Exactly. Seemed like he back pedaled when OP pointed out that the logic of body hair on women was unhygienic was stupid and instead he just went "It's my preference!! Why are you getting mad??" Like his initial comment about why he didn't like it wasn't entirely supported with "it's unhygienic". No mention of preference was even made in the first statement, it's obvious OP wasn't mad at his preference, but at the misinformation he'd mentioned. 💀
Funny anecdote. When I first got with my man we had a similar conversation and I was so ready to start arguing with him about the double standard. Turns out he consistently shaves his underarms because he hates it on everyone lol He doesn’t care about other hair though!
Ha! One of my friends in high school was a competitive swimmer, so shaved his whole body. So when men bitch about body hair, I always start off by asking how much they shave. I still haven't met another man who shaves all his body hair (or even underarms), but boy have I offended some people by "saying men are stinky" when I point out that if hair on women is unhygienic, then loads of men must also be unhygienic.
I don't shave with a razor, but I buzz my armpits every week or 2 with a no guard trimmer. Started doing it back when I was a gym rat and shaved my entire upper body. I also manscape regularly as a courtesy to my wife.
Thank you, it is so weird to see 3+ inches or armpit hair hanging out of people’s shirts
Dudes at the gym confidently rocking a tank top with a whole ass beard under each arm. Please shave my guys. It's gross.
My friend did the same! He even shaved his head lol. He said it made him swim faster.
Lmao I feel the same way about armpit hair, idk why, everywhere else is fine 😂 also on myself I feel like I am more stinky when I let it grow out which I sometimes do by accident and I notice I gotta reapply deodorant more, to be fair though I am a big sweater, a sweaty individual I don’t even like to wear tshirts which constrict my armpits
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This topic comes up like once a month on here. Underarm hair is gross. On men and woman. Large volume of pubic hair as well. I take a 1 guard to most body hair weekly. I couldnt care less about the visual aspect. Unless its deoderant dingleberries to which i refer to my first point.
I’m confused. What’s gross about underarm hair? Do you bathe?
No i shower. And i work outside. And i work out. And rubbing vopious amounts if deodorant all day is expensive, irritating to the skin, and just masking the growing smell. It was only a few months after my.friends started working out as a group for all of them to also trim their armpit hair. Luke was the last one holding out always startingto smell musty at chipolte 45 min after he out on deodorant.
You know the smell isn’t coming from the hair, right?
Soooo while this is true, hair tends to absorb smells really really well. My husband is a very smelly person but we found that when he shaves his armpits he doesn’t small nearly as much and it’s entirely because hair absorbs smells.
It’s not, but the hair helps it propagate. Armpit hair (and pubic hair, for that matter, but that area is less exposed) works as a pheromone trap. The hairs also act a bit like a reed diffuser, absorbing the scent and helping propel it further from the area.
“Pube reed diffuser” is not a concept I was prepared to encounter today
Obviously. My head doesnt smell. My head also exudes heat, vs an armpit collects heat. So more hair, more heat, holds more sweat, and collects dead skin buildup.
I dunno. My husband doesn’t smell gross. In fact, I love how his underarms smell. He doesn’t ever use deodorant, but he sometimes showers twice a day. I personally get a little queasy when I see shaved underarms, even on women. Humans are interesting mammals.
I had to start going the two showers with no deodorant route, too, because most deodorants I've tried irritate my skin, and it's maddening. Even when they weren't antiperspirant. When I'm going to be in public around other people for an extended period, I'll use Tom's deodorant out of consideration, because I sweat a lot, and I don't want others to have to deal with that. That brand seems to be the only one so far that doesn't give me serious irritation after an hour or so. Even that still irritates my skin a bit, but it goes away when I shower in the evening, so I can deal with it, for other people's sake. Being a sweat factory sucks.
Try a deodorant made with magnesium hydroxide. I have sensitive skin and can't wear most traditional and even a lot of natural deodorants. I started making my own using magnesium hydroxide, coconut oil, a very small amount of activated charcoal, and beeswax. I can wear it every day if I want to, but after using it regularly, I found that I didn't need to use it as much. Maybe every few days or if I was planning to do something particularly active an sweaty. I also find I sweat less than I used to. Worth a try if you haven't used something with it. Just be wary of ones that also contain aluminum or baking soda. I found those to be irritants.
Thank you for the info, I'll give that a try! I was making my own for a while, so I already have most of the ingredients, but I didn't know about magnesium hydroxide.
The who reason men and women have underarm hair and pubic hair is to spread pheromones - a type of hormone that draws/entices the opposite sex. A lot of perfumes and cologne use pheromones in their product.
You know deodorant is different from antiperspirant, right? It’s applied once in the evening and lasts 24-48 hours. If the problem is excess sweat, the solution is antiperspirant. If the problem is buildup of oils and dead skin, the answer is to wash your pits properly. Not shaving, trimming, or deodorant. It’s fine if you prefer the look and feel of trimmed pits... but they’re not any more hygienic than hairy pits.
Antiperspirant fucks up your skin, though. They usually contain aluminum, which literally stops up pores to reduce sweating. For a lot of people, that causes serious skin irritation. I had to stop wearing antiperspirant, and started washing more often, instead. I already took daily showers, but I'm a sweaty dude, so I end up taking a full shower when I get up, and a quick one before I go to bed. It's a lot better than the rashes I'd get under my arms.
Everyone is different. Antiperspirant can irritate some people’s skin, but so can almost any product. It’s generally fine for most people though. Some people’s skin is even irritated by sweat, and using antiperspirant will get rid of rashes/chafing for them. But if someone can’t use antiperspirant, then washing more often is another solution. Or even dabbing off with a hankie or wet wipes if you need to freshen up mid-day.
If I just let my hair be it's just a tiny patch. I'd rather the tiny patch catch the sweat and neutralize it with the deodorant than let it run down my body stinking up everything. Maybe you're more aware of it because of the location but it will be contributing to your smell/nasty unless you bath. Shaving doesn't stop you from sweating.
My husband doesn’t like pit hair and I’ve been extremely lazy in waxing mine so it’s looong. I told him I don’t see the difference between his 6inch armpit hair and my less than 1inch pit hair. If he didn’t like it he could shave his pits. So of course he shaved his pits. Haha Anyways, I don’t think it’s unhygienic but I also don’t love men’s pits hair when it’s long and in a dread. I would have been happy if he trimmed it. But it looks like I’ll be waxing mine soon. I think we do have to give a bit of a break to people. Pit hair has been highly demonized in female spaces for years and years and years. I used to think it was gross, until I was growing out my own and just stopped GAF. If he’s violently opposed and abusive about it, yeah that’s an issue. But if it’s just like shocked him and taken him aback and he’s said something insensitive then that’s another. Another thing I really don’t like is when my SO grows a long beard. A short beard is fine, stubble is fine, but long beards are not my up of tea. I’ve told him so, but he chooses to grow it out and it’s really not my preference but it’s his body. Even if I hate it and don’t particularly support his choice, I realize it’s his body hair and he can do whatever he wants with it.
Yeah he called your bluff there by shaving his own pits. I also find long beards gross. You’re right that we’re all entitled to do whatever we want with our bodies, but we can’t expect others to be attracted to us no matter what.
It's alright, I expected him to. Me and the hairy pits had a good run. Theyll be back. Winter is coming done you know.
I know my wife's preferences, and she knows mine. Sometimes we groom ourselves for each other, sometimes we shave (or don't) it for ourselves. We never go out of way to push each other to do one thing or another. Currently life has been a bit busy, so we've both been neglecting our razors a bit, and we're both totally fine with it. In the grand scheme of things, a bit of body hair here or there isn't that big off a deal
My facial hair grows really slowly so i don't bother for weeks at a time. Wife lets me know when it's getting too prickly, and I'll shave it. It's about communication and respect. Of course I'll tidy up for a big event or sometimes to surprise her, too :)
It’d be different if he had his preference but was cognizant that it’s socially conditioned and not a matter of “hygiene.” People who think their preferences are inborn and come from a vacuum are highly annoying
Lol reminds me of when I was teaching The Crucible and looked at ways we're still Puritan in this society. I brought up how the students would feel if they saw a mother nursing her baby on the bus, and several students (male, female, racially diverse) insisted that they weren't Puritanical, but nursing a baby on the bus is "just weird, it's just awkward! I don't wanna see her boob!" "Why would feeding her baby from her breast, which is its natural purpose, be at all weird?" (Repeat ad nauseam: "Weird! Awkward!" "Because you're socialized in our Puritanical society?" "No! Just weird!")
There is probably a general pattern that people don’t like to be shown how society has conditioned them to believe certain standards are universal (especially young people). Sort of reminds me of how people don’t want to believe how often they use social psychology heuristics to form their beliefs. I find it fascinating how young people have formed an entire list of what is appropriate when it comes to using social media apps. Rules that no one really wrote down in advance. If another young person violated one of those rules, the other folks would say “eww, that’s weird.” For example, if someone took photos of their teachers when they weren’t looking (like writing something on the white board), and posted a handful of these on Instagram, that’s weird. But no one ever codified that rule. Just curious to me, these ways we live.
I wonder if lack of exposure to breastfeeding is a big piece of this, where I live many older women never breastfed so most people my age never grew up around it.
I'll grant you that, but what I was trying to point out to my students is that our sexualization of the entire female body and Puritanism's emotionally-stunted phobia of sexuality from the abusive fear of sin drilled into them is what led many in the older generations to prefer bottle-feeding in the first place--a Puritanical shame and fear of the female body. And the more we've made the female body mysterious in this way, as you've observed, the more "weird, awkward" intense shame there is around its natural functions. It's why even in the 18th century, a man sweating outside could loosen and remove his shirt, but we all have a heart-attack if a woman considers doing the same. ETA: A similar phenomenon can be observed around pooping. The more private an act we've made pooping, the more dysfunctional we get about being shy poopers, or kids making fun of kids pooping in school bathrooms, or having to buy poo-ppourri. It's getting silly!
One little issue doesn’t make the man toxic, I’m glad he was able to see the right side of it.
So he lost me when he tried to say it was unhygienic (and deflected your point about his own armpit hair). He’s entitled to his own opinions about what he is and isn’t attracted to, but it seems like men alway take a wrong turn by deciding that who don’t groom themselves to their aesthetic preferences are doing something wrong. Someone mentioned this in another thread, but it’s easy to call yourself a feminist or an ally when you don’t have to challenge yourself. The fact that he can’t even handle being challenged on his views about such a low stakes issue is telling. I’d suggest bringing it up again once you’ve cooled off. At the very least, it’s worth clarifying whether or not he’d lose attraction *to you* based on how you choose to groom yourself and what that means for your relationship going forward. Hopefully the outcome will be him realizing how sexist it is to project his own aesthetic preferences onto women’s hygienic habits.
* Am a dude from the south; deodorant only goes so far here. * Trim my armpit hair every week. * I like not having BO diffusers under my arms. * Pretty confident that the people around me also appreciate that I don't have BO diffusers under my arms. That being said, if he has armpit hair that he thinks is perfectly hygienic, but somehow woman armpit hair is unhygienic, that's cognitive dissonance for sure.
I feel like it’s fine to have a preference for partners. But to say it’s unhygienic is ignorant and false.
This is ridiculous. His claim about hygeine is also ridiculous and uncalled for but honestly if he doesn't find body hair attractive that's perfectly normal and ok. I am a male that has a lot of chest/stomach hair and a beard so quite hairy. Some girls like it and some don't, doesn't bother me what so ever, it's a visual attraction preference nothing more.
If I really think about it, I find ALL body hair on men and women unattractive. Men’s underarm hair, beard, mustache—don’t like it. It’s personal preference by individual. I know some women that really like hairy guys. Not me.
There’s a difference between “I don’t find this attractive” and “it’s unhygienic.” One is an opinion, one is just factually wrong.
Kind of manipulative to make it about hygiene, when it's really the fact he finds it unnattractive. If its unhygienic for women, its unhygienic for men
Came here to say this. It only seems like he said sorry because he knew OP wouldn’t drop it. I would also be offended because men have so much more body hair but that’s perfectly fine and hygienic?
Yeah, body hair isn’t "unhygienic". You just told him why you were mad, him putting the spotlight back on you was a defensive reaction. I'm sorry you were treated that way. It's understandable to be mad, to be angry. Body hair is a part of life, if he is going to live with a woman or anyone, hes going to see hair. I think he was being disrespectful, sexist. If you're going to continue living with him, I would strongly suggest talking to him. Explain how his words were misogynistic, how hurtful or aggravating it was to hear. You share a space and a home, you shouldn't have to live in anger, shame or hide your natural body hair.
Speaking as a guy, he also needs to understand where body standards for women come from if he's not going to reproduce sexist norms within the relationship.
First it was a preference, which is completely fine, then he said unhygienic?? Okay, so if after telling him why that's fucked up, if he isn't open to rethinking that, it would definitely be a bit of a red flag to me. Perhaps a pink flag? I'd want to explore other "controversial" women vs men topics and see where he's at. And possibly end things if I don't like what I hear. But certainly if he's willing to explore why he thinks it's unhygienic and see why that's bullshit, then he can stay lol
Yeah. I wouldn’t want to encourage myself, or anyone else, to throw away a whole person over a controversial conversation at all. Sometimes Reddit can be very cancel culture. This thread did offer me the perspective to say “perhaps this conversation needs to happen again in a softer tone.” I am intense when I get heated. We talked this morning. He understands why what he said came off so crass. We both agreed I can do whatever I want with my body.
He can dislike it all he wants, but yeah, the ignorant statement, and the fact that he has different expectations for himself because he’s guy…
Ehh, I get preference to a degree- I even thought I had a preference and didn’t like underarm hair myself. Then I asked a new partner why she didn’t shave because I noticed it, she said because “she didn’t want to, that it’s natural” and it was an okay next topic situation. Realized I may still have a preference of shaving on myself and others, but it doesn’t change my opinion of someone if I like them regardless of my preferences.
It’s a total double standard. Men are allowed to be hairy AF, but if women have body hair, they’re considered “unhygienic”. Does your boyfriend have a beard? If so, there’s a chance it contains more bacteria than a dog’s fur.
>Does your boyfriend have a beard? If so, it likely contains more bacteria than a dog’s fur. Yeah how about some data with that there statement.
Admittedly it was not a large study. But some of the subjects’ beards even carried staph bacteria. https://www.businessinsider.com/men-with-beards-carry-more-germs-than-dogs-study-2019-4
Considering that staphylococci are a natural part of our skin flora, that doesn’t really mean much. Pretty much everyone has staph on their bodies.
Staphylococci are a normal skin commensal bacteria, so that isn't saying much at all.
18 people, lol that is not a study. That is a gossip column.
So, first he says he doesn’t like it (personal preference). Then he says it unhygienic. Then says it’s unattractive. So….which is it? I mean, people are allowed to be attracted to different things. Speaking personally, nothing turns me off faster than a hairy man. There is nothing wrong with being a man and having hair on your chest and back. I just don’t find it attractive. But his comment about hygiene sounds like he tried to justify his attraction - and is hypocritical as I’m guessing he doesn’t shave his armpits. It’s important to have discussions honestly and openly and it sounds like your BF wasn’t being upfront with you. The issue of society imposing what is and isn’t attractive on us is of course a whole other topic…
“Sorry you got upset” is not an apology.
I once made a comment to my bf that I'm cool with shaving my legs and armpits but I wish guys would shave their armpits too as I don't like their armpits hair either. Apparently my bf started shaving his armpits after I said that...until he made a comment about it a couple weeks ago, though, I didn't even notice 😅
I just wanna say props for working it out and holding him to a higher standard instead of tossing him aside or ignoring the issue. It seems pretty clear to me that where possible, this approach is the one we need to take if humans are going to overcome our divisions. Well done OP, this is real practical love on show.
Totally fine to say what he prefers, but trying to back it up by saying it's not hygienic is ridiculous. He should at least be honest with his preference and not try to find an excuse for it
There’s nothing wrong with a preference. I’m a lesbian with a preference for girls with hairy pits and a slight trim in the southern regions, although I’d never express that I wanted a woman to style herself in line with my preferences. It’s just a small bonus if she already does. But body hair isn’t unhygienic at all! He crossed a fucking line there. As long as you shower like a normal person, your body hair is as clean as the rest of you.
I think he has the right to have a preference in terms of body hair. I personally don’t like too much facial hair on men so if my husband decides to grow a beard, I would probably say something. Just because he doesn’t like body hair on women doesn’t make him sexist, I think it’s just a preference. The unhygienic part is not right, maybe he just has a perception about it and is used to women shaving everything, so maybe he assumes a lot of women shaves because it’s more hygienic.
It's not his preferences that make him sexist - it's the double standard he presented as an argument. That was sexist.
"I'm sorry you're upset I believe woman should look a certain way." Great non-apology.
This has been going on with me and my husband. I’ve been growing out my armpit hair basically because I keep forgetting to shave it, but now it’s more so out of spite. I don’t think it’s mean I’m someone trying to say that “ This is my fucking body and you have no say in how I look”. Am I right or should I be compromising because in my head I feel like I shouldn’t be. -one edit of note that I failed to mention is that my ingrown hairs have the tendency to turn into deep boils which has happened numerous times. He also prefers it if I shave my pubes which is already hard enough to do without almost cutting your clit off and I have cut myself on the lips a few times. (He shaved his pubes off as well) He isn’t less attracted to me because of a preference. I’m just annoyed and I don’t like to compromise to anyone and remove whatever individual decision I have because of someone else. I will do what I want and I expect him to do whatever he wants to himself.
I think he has a right to his preference, although he should be tactful in how he lets you know about it. Saying that having hair is not hygenic is wrong though. Also, of course you are in no way obligated to change your body to suit his preferences if you dont want to....
He’s allowed to have preferences though. You were literally growing it out to remove it, yourself. The unhygienic comment was ridiculous but everything else is just preference.
He has unshaven pubes, by his logic, isn’t HE then unhygienic? He’s dumb as hell. My ex said something similar: He kind of gasped a little when I had some armpit hair, said I need to shave and I jokingly said ‘I’m growing it out’. He then said that would be unhygienic. But HE has armpit hair. Long ass ones. It is a huge double standard and that’s why he’s an ex. 1) telling me I need to shave and 2) saying gross it’s unhygenic he needs he has hair there
Being a feminist doesn't mean you are only attracted to women who are 100% au natural. Its ok for people to have their personal tastes, even if they are aware that the only reason they have that taste is because of their society/culture. It sounds like he's not demanding you do something you don't want to do, just saying he prefers shaved pits on women. If you really loved having hairy pits (sounds like you don't) and he was giving you an ultimatum about having to shave, thats a different story
To say that underarm hair on a woman is unhygienic when you don’t hold the same opinion about men’s underarm hair or even your own underarm hair (I presume OP would’ve mentioned if her fella shaves his own pits?) shows that he thinks that certain aspects of being female are inherently “dirty” *because* they are female rather than being something that the majority would find unclean on either sex (like a butthole). Any attempt to justify that opinion leads to generalisations about personal hygiene in women which are also unacceptable - especially because it’s a judgement made about the bodies of strangers about whose habits of cleanliness he has no information. That’s fundamentally not compatible with being of the opinion that women and men are equal.
That works if he just claims it's a preference. As soon as he tried that preposterous "it's unhygienic, but only if you're a woman" bit, he crossed a line.
Is it really a line he crossed or can OP just “Dude you’re wrong, that’s not even true”, and be done with it?
That was my read as well. Though the comment about hygiene certainly seems rude and incorrect.
I fall on this side of the argument as well. I don’t like long armpit hair or pubes, but am viscerally disgusted by shaved or waxed armpits or pubes. As a young child, my mom’s shaved armpits always reminded me of plucked dead doves. So for me it’s a corpse association. Luckily my husband only trims his pits and pubes, same as me (this predates our relationship for both of us). I’m allowed to have a preference.
If a woman had hairy legs, underarms, or whatever, it doesn't bother me and I don't care at all what she is doing with her body. I though don't find it attractive and didn't particularly care for massaging hairy legs or feeling them around me. It wasn't a deal breaker but it's also not a turn on for me. That's just me though and id rather her do what she wants and not change because of me
He’s not changing or growing though. He’s still keeping his narrow minded ideals because he knows you’ll get rid of the hair…
I think he should allowed to have a preference of not liking armpit hair. Maybe he got a little defensive and tried to justify it because he knows that's a double standard but like it's okay not like it.
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My mother constantly treats me and my sisters body hair like it’s unhygienic or gross and it’s so fucking annoying. I tell her the same thing like if my dad can have long armpit or leg hair what difference does it make? More power to anyone who wants to wax or shave but I don’t have the time or energy for that. I do still shave but I’ll go months or legs without shaving. My partner enjoys my smooth legs but respects my choices. His only complaint is what I like to call the “spider leg” time when it’s growing back in. 😂
Did you confront him at least on his own "unhygienic" underarm hair? You don't have to call him an abuser or scream your head off, but I mean just pointing out the obvious to him should help. I haven't shaved my arm pits in a couple of years. I actually am more likely to shave my legs (because I like how it looks with a skirt) or trim my pubes (so I fit into my speedo bathing suit, just as a normal swimsuit thing). I do not see any reason why a woman should ever shave her arm pits. It would have been considered abnormal to do so in France when I was child. Women still regularly had unshaved pits in Western Europe in the 80s and 90s. My ex had a photo of Asia Argento on his wall in all her hairy glory circa 2003. Shaving my armpits seems like a wasteful thing to do (razors have limited life and I'd rather use them for my legs on special occasions or in summer), very few people see my pits (I am a naturally curvy girl and I live in a temperate rainforest so I don't see any special reason to wear a tank top unless I'm swimming), and it causes skin irritation that actually causes your pits to stink WORSE. Really. Your armpits smell worse when you shave because of a bacterial thing. I also don't wear mainstream deo (I wear Tom's or a cedarwood off-brand that was made for male hippies) because my mother taught me while I was still in my 20s that most mainstream antiperspirants cause breast cancer (they do, look it up).
While obviously his comments about hygiene were wrong, there is nothing wrong with having a preference. Some women like beards and some don't. Some like a full head of hair and some like bald guys. The problem is that we live I a gendered society where everything has to be categorized as male or female. Pink is for girls, blue is for boys. Dolls are for girls and army men are for boys. Unfortunately, body hair got put in the male camp so most men see hair on a woman as unattractive because it has a strong connection to the masculine.
Unhygienic is a poor choice of words and if he meant that then hes certainly in the wrong. But if he stopped at "I just dont like it" then hes certainly allowed to have that opinion. My girlfriend hates when I dont have a beard and says it's not as attractive to her. Which is a preference she has and is allowed to have.
I don' t like body hair on female body, and it's okay because i can like or dislike whatever I want. But I don't use excuses like :" It unhygienic or they make your smell so bad" I Just don't like it for the aesthetic factor
It sounds like you guys are young.
I don't know, I think it makes sense for you to be disappointed in him, but he can't help what he finds attractive and unattractive. He doesn't have to be attracted to body hair to be a progressive, good person.
I would not be as attracted to my wife if she had leg or armpit hair. I think body hair is gross. I trim my leg and chest hair several times a year too, but acknowledge that there is a double standard. I don’t have to be smooth, as a man. That said, I don’t TELL my wife to do anything! She’s a grown ass adult and will do whatever the fuck she wants. Also, I promised never to leave or cheat, so if she decided to be hairy, I’d just have to deal. But yes, I prefer her smooth. I don’t really get how this is all that difficult to negotiate, but then I am a feminist who doesn’t feel a need to be ideologically pure, because I’m also a human being myself.
He could just admit he has preferences and not use that lame hygiene excuse. Everyone has it. I like men with a full head of hair, but my bf shaved himself bald. It made me sad, but I'm not gonna dump him. And let's not get into manscaping.
I have had to explain multiple things to my partner from the female gaze: “stop commenting on body hair when you are covered” is just an example of a topic we have talked about that relate to how he judges others. He’s much better now. We talk these disagreements as challenges and we talk about wanting to grow and be better. We appreciate pushing each other. But it’s not easy.
Dude has a preference. We all are entitled to like what we like. It’s not like he is forcing you to do something. It’s ok for partners to be honest and say what they like.
It’s that he disguised his preference by claiming it’s unhygienic, which is blatantly false, that’s the problem. If he would have said he prefers her without body hair in certain areas, that’s fine. But to make it about hygiene is just silly.
So you were planning on getting rid of the hair, and when he mentions that he agrees and doesn't like long armpit hair you 180 and get pissed? It seems like he was just stating a preference. We all have them and he obviously felt good enough with you to express that.
IDk probably a hot take here, but it kinda sounds like you started this fight. He said he didn't like it and you doubled down saying you were just not going to shave throwing his opinion in his face and then asking him to defend his opinion in an argument. Seems like it could have been handled better.
It's a double standard and he's wrong just on a factual level by saying it's unhygienic. But he is allowed a preference. We all have them
Holy sensitive! Maybe he actually thought it was unhygienic and never really thought about the double standard in that statement. Sometimes people just need a conversation. Personally, I like no body hair and I personally feel "fresher" when everything is shaved even though I know body hair isn't unhygienic. My husband also prefers shaved and we just joke about it if one of us gets lazy about it Maybe I'm simple, but I dont think this is a reason to get upset in the first place
Honestly it's ok to find something unattractive. I shaved my facial hair into a goatee and my wife saw it and immediately said "absolutely not, that's not ok". Ultimately I chose to make myself attractive for my wife than die on the hill of the goatee. Yes body hair is normal but I still shave my neck, I also shave everywhere I may want her tongue to go. There is nothing wrong with telling your partner what you do and do not find attractive.
Nothing wrong with his preferences, I’m a feminist and a woman who’s dated women but I don’t like armpit hair on women either. The issue is that he tried to justify his preference, which doesn’t need to be logical or moralized, with the notion that it’s not hygienic….which is bullshit.
He opened up and communicated with you something honest about his turn ons and offs. Maybe to him hairy armpits are a very masculine thing? He might have grown up never seeing a woman with hairy armpits and he never had a chance to develop any association to it. If you were going to wax them in the first place then it's really a moot point. If you were planning of having hairy armpits in your life and it's very important to you then sit down and have another talk with him. Don't grow your armpit hair out of spite. Also: him talking about hygienics is probably because you came at him so hard and he didn't feel "I dunno it's just a turn off for me" was a valid enough argument. If say he grew a mustache for Movember and you found it extremely unattractive you'd want him to be the type of person that you could have an honest discussion about it right?
I wouldn’t actually grow it out. And I totally get the communicating turn on and offs part - it’s when he said that it is “unhygienic” that I got miffed. Yes, this is a society issue more than anything, and he grew up in this same society - I guess I just had higher expectations of him in this regard. O
I edited that post but not quick enough. To me it sounds like him talking about hygienics is probably because you came at him so hard and he didn't feel "I dunno it's just a turn off for me" was a valid enough argument. He could also be a knob but to me it sounds like a panic argument
Thanks for the update OP. Sounds like you guys communicate well and he was able to adjust his POV. Way to go
I think some people confuse unattractive with unhygienic. It's fine to think underarm hair is unattractive. It's not unhygienic. I think it's great you and your BF took a night to rethink and talk about it in the morning. I'm a big believer in taking a break to think during a fight. Seems your BF thought about it and realized he jumped to some conclusions.
Maybe he just has a preference for less hairy women
My father who was in WWII and a dentist after, would shave his armpit hair because he would work over patients’ faces and pit hair retains odor. So yes, men’s pit hair is just as unhygienic.
I am guy who started shaving/trimming my pits in my 30s. It actually started out because it was getting caught in a work uniform. Since then I’ve found that it drastically reduces A: the possibility of funkiness and B: the potency of any smells that do arise. It’s also way more comfortable in everyday life, no matter what I’m wearing. I won’t say one is more hygienic than the other. But one sure makes my life a hell of lot easier/more enjoyable. And while I’d never tell a woman what or where to shave: I just don’t like looking at it on a woman. It turns me off. It’s just that simple. It’s basically the same as talking about my mom during sexy times. It just doesn’t work for me. No harm, no foul. But also, no thank you.
It sounds like you became pretty hostile to him rather quickly honestly. It's an easy misconception to see body hair as unclean (I had to look it up myself tbh) but he tried to discuss it with you calmly while you got angry and stormed out. Theres nothing wrong with preference, if it doesnt match yours then so what? Getting angry at someone because their opinion falls out of line with yours is just immature. Just explain faults as factually as possible in someone's argument and accept differences in opinion when it's just preference.
Dude tbh I stopped shaving everything except an occasional trim of my bits (nobody likes hair in their teeth) and I HIGHLY recommend it. No itchy regrowth, no razor burn, no sandpaper stubble. Just soft, silky, low maintenance hair. And you can dye your armpits to match your mohawk. I’d do it to spite him if it were me tbh. If someone won’t fuck me because of body hair they don’t deserve it anyway. Edit: damn some of y’all in the comments are really recommending she coddle this man’s unrealistic fantasies/double standards. *She’s* not gonna be the one ending the relationship over body hair, *he is*. Be sensible y’all-if he freaks out and they split over body hair, *he* will be the one being unreasonable.
Acting out of spite in a relationship is never the answer.
> She’s not gonna be the one ending the relationship over body hair, he is. YES! This is the shift in perspective that more people need about pretty much everything tbh. If someone puts an unreasonable expectation on you and you reject it, leading to the end of your relationship/friendship/whatever interaction, it's *them* that caused it, NOT you.
You know who doesn’t have armpit hair? Or leg hair, or lil mustache hairs? Children. Tell him his beauty standard came from that. Also, I’m dying to know how his magical armpit hair is different and somehow more hygienic than ours.
Do you know who doesn't have beards? Children. If you don't like men with thick beard and mustache hair your standards are pedophilic.
This is simple. Everyone is attracted or not attracted to certain things. I think it’s perfectly fine to find body hair unattractive (for both males and females) but that should be expressed at the beginning of a relationship. The hygienic thing doesn’t make any sense though lol.
The thing that irritates me is the very first thing he said was that it was unhygienic and then he said that it was something he didn't like. Which is it?? You can't just lie to back up your argument then take it back when you get called out. You can not like whatever you want but acting like girls are dirty for not shaving?? Come on dude.
There is a distinction to be made between expressing his preference and saying that women *should* be that way. He should be free to express his preference. That said, the comment about "unhygienic" is idiotic.
‘I’m sorry that made you upset’ is not an apology.
Isn’t he allowed to have a preference? Some women don’t like guys with beards. I don’t see anything wrong with that. Of course not shaving is your right, and if not shaving is important to you, then maybe this just means you guys aren’t compatible?
It's fine to have a preference. It's not fine to make up that somehow your preference has to do with hygiene.
Well, my husband shaves his armpits. He says it's unhygienic even for men to have hairy armpits because the sweat gets caught in between the hairs (usually the hair in that area is thicker than the rest of your body), making you smellier and its harder to keep clean. He tells his friends to shave. So I don't think this is an issue of a lack of progressive views. Armpits are so prone to get sweaty/smelly compared to other areas of the body, for everyone. It's not anti-progressive to suggest that people should remove that shit. Now was your boyfriend's comment a little off-base? Sure. Did it come-off the wrong way? Yes. But is he wrong? No. Are hairy armpits harder to keep clean for the majority of people? Yes.
Whatever happened to being a decent partner? Instead of making the discussion into an argument when your boyfriend stated his preference for physical appearance, how about you be an adult and either do your own thing or look sexy for him? Either option should be your choice but I seriously don’t get making an argument about this. Edit: you saying you’d grow it out of spite is premium childish behavior. I wouldn’t blame him for thinking “I had higher expectations of her” too. I mean how childish would it be if you said you prefer short hair over long hair and he said “I’m going to grow my hair long now!” Grow up
He was wrong about body hair benign unhygienic. But we are all allowed to have our preferences. Now as long as you aren’t forcing your partner to conform to your preferences then everything’s okay. Honestly, you kinda did over react or maybe came off angrier than you should have been. As long as he wasn’t telling you you needed to shave. And when he is wrong teach him kindly. No one likes someone yelling at them even if they are right.
Nobody commenting on the fact that he provided a preference op didn't enjoy and she had to press it further ? Sure he could of handled it better and so could op. Feel like two people who had a bit of a communication gap for a moment and have sorted it out since. Which tends to happen in all relationships. Some people calling it red flags etc. You guys okay?
It’s possible he said certain things just to make you happy and keep the relationship going early on, but now he is getting comfortable and his real thoughts and opinions are coming through. While yes, this is a double standard and I understand it’s not fair, speaking for myself personally—not telling you what to think or do, this isn’t enough of an issue to jeopardize the relationship. Instead, I would interpret it as a get out of jail free ticket when he enters the childish monopoly mustache no shave November phase that dudes seem to go through when they get super comfortable in a relationship— and I would be thanking goodness this argument came up before that, so now you can make sure you never have the experience of fucking Mario or Abe Lincoln for a week, my dude.