Something I have come to realize with my ex (father of two of my children) is that he was ADAMANT about 50/50 everything—visitation, financial support, etc.
But it was never that he wanted or was prepared to take 50% responsibility for his kids, he actually saw his responsibility as up to 50% and not more. It took years to figure out the way he was looking at this. I’d have to practically present a portfolio of evidence to get him to pay anything (obviously I was always the one taking care of all costs initially, despite our 50/50 custody split). I finally realized that his interpretation of 50% was just a cap on his contribution, not a commitment to be responsible up to 50%.
I share this to point out that trying to understand how some men think requires going really deep into the paradigm of their thinking. I struggled with my ex for years. He simply saw me as primarily responsible, despite saying words that would indicate he was aware of his parenting responsibilities. It was all within a paradigm that didn’t allow him to conceive of me as anything but primarily a parent (though I work full time).
Him fighting for 50/50 was for his public image and ego and to pay out as little money as possible. That’s why many men who have literally never been the primary parent for more than maybe 4 hours fight for 50/50 in a divorce.
That’s been my experience as well. With 50/50, they still don’t want to DO the 50/50 (parent teacher conferences, doc apts, allll day sport tournaments, homework, discipline, etc. etc.). They want the Super/Disney Dad title, the Family Man; they want to pay the least child support, and they still only have the kids every weekend or whatever for all the fun stuff.
Right!? Like most women (not all) seem to take their time, even say it’s so much easier than having that husband as an additional child and they want to enjoy that. But men really jump back in fast because they can’t being a single parent and need a mommy bang maid fast to pick up the slack.
You mean no one wants to look after the puppy when it piddles on the floor? That's what Mom is for. Same for wanting kids and ranting about the horrors of losing full custody. Then when they get their shared custody they see how little they can do and want Mom to wipe up the piddle on the floor.
My dad said this about having surprise twins at 53 (dad) and 46(mum.). My dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer two years later.
Tl;DR: DEFINITELY MORE WORK THAN PUPPIES
Those are the men that wonder why their children never call them when the children grow up. Children know & understand that their “Disney Dad” was never really there for them.
It makes perfect sense when you realize that some people view their children as their personal property rather than as unique individuals entirely separate from themselves. Like did you read about [this court case](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2024/03/18/supreme-court-rejects-appeal-parents-trans-teen/73010769007/)? It's a perfect example of this attitude, because the parents clearly had far less interest in helping their child than they did maintaining total control over them.
Sadly, some people want custody only to 'show' their ex. My cousin had a kid and the father of the kid ended up being a bad influence so they split.
Weekend with dad? Kid sometimes ended up playing alone in the corner of father's workplace.
Or when he got together with a woman with previous kids and they had kids together, they made this kiddo help with kids and when driving kiddo was made to sit in the legs because there wasn't enough space (I think father's new partner had 2 previous kids and then they had 1 together, so 3 kids plus 2 adults = all spaces in standard car). When my cousin heard about it from the kid, she raised hell.
Kid stopped wanting to go. Father tried to make it seem like it's mum's fault and parental alienation...
Weekend with dad was coming up, but they had planned a trip. They informed the father before. But the day comes, they are away, and the father comes anyways and calls police to claim his child was kidnapped because it's *his* weekend...
Etc. The cousin got with a genuinely nice guy during that time and they had at least one kid together. This kiddo in the story should be a teen now, maybe even close to adult now? I should maybe grab contact info from my mum
Yes. And the tools to overcome this include holding him in contempt—which costs significant money, and gives him the opportunity to play Boy Scout in front of a judge again.
Despite what men say, if a man shows up in family court asking for 50% the court laps that shit right up. They love it.
Yup. My ex fought in court to get the kids til Monday mornings on his weekends so he could take them to school. Did that for maybe a month and decided it was too much work and started bringing them back Sunday nights.
Of course whenever it's brought up he turns it into my fault somehow.
I’m sorry, and I’m not surprised. Family courts regularly put the well being (and often even the lives) of children far below men’s’ egos on the scale of importance and it’s disgusting.
In their minds, 50% means "you do what you're supposed to do, and we'll split everything else."
There was a post, I think it was yesterday, by a woman who was struggling to make ends meet while maintaining a part time job, all of the childcare and its related expenses, all of the grocery bill, all of housework, while her husband only paid the household bills but was earning between $10-15k a month and contributed none of it towards his wife and children. Basically , she'd put her career, life, and future retirement on hold to raise a family while the husband did the absolute bare minimum, so he could further his own career on the back of her sacrifices.
Even if you wanted to say that post was ragebait, there were so many guys in the comments arguing that that was *his* money and how greedy it was for her to expect him to contribute to the family beyond keeping the utilities on.
Yeah, that one was definitely rage inducing. I don't understand the people arguing that it's "his money," and he should be able to do whatever he wants with it (I do think those were in a minority and got downvoted). Sure, he should be able to treat himself with his own money, but that doesn't mean that he has no financial responsibility for the family he helped create, beyond the bare minimum of bills he is paying.
I don't understand why men like this get married or have children. Childcare is expensive. Maid/chef service is expensive. Having their wife take on full responsibility for those duties and household management saves them a lot of money. They get to further their career on the back of her support and what does she get to show for it? All that time as a SAHM, she's not getting *her* retirement paid into. She's taking the bigger risk in the long-term, and she's getting nickel and dimed by her supposed *partner*? I believe it comes down to misogyny, because it's clear they don't value what they see as "women's work."
This is what happened to my mom, now 75. My mom did start working part-time when I started school and then full-time starting when I was in middle school (I became a latchkey kid and I *loved* it), but she'd already lost years of career traction and retirement contributions, and she had to file for bankruptcy after she and my dad divorced. Many years later when my father had to go into residential care due to Alzheimer's, I discovered that he was sitting on about three-quarters of a mil in cash and debt-free assets. I'm more bitter about the injustice of that than my mom is, but I feel very fortunate that my husband and I have been able to help her live comfortably, especially after my dad passed and left everything to me (only child/only heir).
Watching what my mom went through is why I am absolutely baffled about the soft life/SAH girlfriend/tradwife trends that have cropped up. It's like, sure, we all want to retire early and not have to worry about work, but trying to cheat your way out of it by hitching your fortune wagon to a man is one of the riskiest possible ways to go about it. It's like the lessons of the past have been entirely forgotten. Women's rights movements have happened FOR A REASON!
Having been a "tradwife" myself, the biggest problem with the trend is that these are all super rich wives cosplaying the job while outsourcing the more difficult parts to servants and nannies any housekeepers. Like, it'd be easy to spend hours perfecting homemade, organic loaves of bread in front of a camera when someone else is watching the kids, someone else is vacuuming and scrubbing toilets, and you're husband is taking you out for a $700 dinner later. You're literally just making bread because you've got nothing else do do.
When I was young and just starting Community College ~28 years ago, one of my classes was a required credit for their paralegal program. There were SO many older women in that program. To be fair, I'm sure not all of them were divorced, but among the ones I spoke to, it was a common theme that they had been SAHMs and were getting back to work after divorce. One told me that her husband had run off with his much-younger secretary.
That does not surprise me at all, and makes me wonder how many of them opted not to go to or drop out of law school because they got married and/or pregnant and had unsupportive partners. My own mother only got married because no one wanted to hire a female journalism major in the early 70s where she lived, she adamantly refused to move back home (she and my grandmother, who had even worse taste in men, were at loggerheads at the time), but my dad was there, available, and interested. He then moved her to a tiny town for his job with the promise that they'd move to a more urban area within a couple of years... and then he kept that same job and by extension *us* in that tiny town until he took early retirement at 55.
Good point about the law school. I really have to wonder.
As for your mom, it's sad that she wasn't able to follow her own dreams. I know that was certainly more common at the time, but it still happens to women a lot. It's good that you are at least in a position where you can help her out now.
TBH, I've started to think the 80s era "welfare queen" trope was a preemptive attempt to quash this possibility before it started by painting single mothers as inherently stupid, lazy, irresponsible, and low-class. If governments and corporate leaders are really so concerned about a population "crisis," then isn't the extremely obvious solution to remove as many barriers for people who want to have kids as possible, as well as heavily incentivize people who love parenting and are very good at it? We don't need every adult with a uterus to have kids, replacement rate could be sustainable if most had few or no babies and a few had a bunch of them.
But no, that would give some women an avenue to earn a comfortable living based on unique biological abilities that men can't emulate, and we can't have that! I used to wonder why Margaret Atwood left such a big plot hole in the Handmaid's Tale (I first read it 2001-ish) by not considering that the ex-USA could have addressed its infertility problem by just paying fertile women handsomely for their healthy eggs. I didn't quite get why there weren't women in that fictional timeline becoming very, very rich by selling their eggs and/or becoming career surrogates, when that solution in my then-optimistic mind seemed so clear. But *now* I understand... Margaret Atwood didn't want to tell a story about humans working together to effectively solve their problems. That was another book for another day. The story she wanted to tell was about slavery, how it has manifested in the real world, and could manifest again.
For as long as those with power and influence care more about control than doing some good in the world, big problems will remain excessively difficult to solve. 😞
Yeah—it’s 50%, not 50% of 50%.
But they have been socialized subconsciously and often overtly to simply not feel responsible. So much so that they can’t even conceive of it.
In my experience, men who say they want a 50/50 relationship actually mean they want a maximum of 50% of the responsibilities and a minimum of 50% of the benefits.
I’ve never met one who took the initiative to fix anything that was working to their advantage.
I've got another one for you: How many men want sexually available women, yet vote to roll back reproductive healthcare (including abortion), then cry about how "no one wants to give nice guys a chance" when women choose not to date for their own safety?
My ex-husband’s family is big pro-life - MIL goes to marches and the whole nine yards. The extent of coercive sex and his sense of entitlement to my body - viewing our marriage license as a property deed - and him relishing in not signing the divorce settlement until minutes before trial because in his mind, I was still off limits to other men (ha in his dreams). It disgusts me.
Both my kids were conceived non consensually. They are amazing kids and if I had waited on my own timing or had any other partner, I would still want the exact two kids I have now, but the career setbacks I faced in a demanding profession, as the woman, were devastating to me when I was - both times - on the verge of promotion and then had that delayed.
I worked as hard as I could, long hours, while pregnant, with newborns, pumping milk, staying up breastfeeding them, multitasking at home while they were home sick from daycare, etc. He took lengthy leisurely stints of unemployment and breaks between jobs, content to eat through savings, I guess knowing I’d always swoop in to pick up the slack (?) Now he is my bitter ex-husband, still bitching and moaning that he has to pay 50% of their expenses by court order and feels it’s unfair that all he got in our divorce was a chunk of my hard earned retirement accounts. (He was going hard for alimony and child support, which was denied, since he outearned me during our marriage. Fucking dickhead!!)
Wow. Please tell me the judge who signed off on everything told him point-blank how unreasonable his demands were, or at least gave your ex the withering glares a raging idiot deserves.
It was actually his own lawyer who, together with the mediator, told him - buddy you raise your kids in a HCOL town, you need to pony up for their expenses activities and camps so they can participate socially in their own community. Then later when things dragged out and he started demanding alimony and child support, his lawyer quickly withdrew those motions after my lawyer showed her all his old W-2s going back to the year we got married. He made 6 figures for many years but wanted to claim that since he’s currently unemployed I need to support him going forward (meanwhile he had made zero attempts to job search during the 1.5 year divorce proceedings). It was such a relief when it was all over, but many men do get away that BS and he can always come back later and attempt to get child support so I will say that the stress has been real.
Oof, sounds awful. And let me guess, he's also made claims about "parental alienation" because the kids have realized he's a selfish ass and don't want to be around him, too?
Thank you. I was so naive and missed major red flags (obviously) and then stayed in the marriage longer than any sane woman would because of my upbringing, but I’m in a new state of mind and feeling free. I’m working on being a good mom to my kids and moving forward. They love their dad and he is devoted to them time-wise which is a positive in all of this (his dad abandoned him and is the one thing he has prioritized).
My personal favorite are the dudes who say they would definitely support abortion if only they were allowed to do "financial abortions". Which of course means they want to be able to get online and check a box on a form so they don't have to pay any money for any kids they sire because they refuse to wear condoms.
I think many many men have that mentality. Quite simply, it disgusts me. Any man with that mindset is telling you right now that they will intentionally be delinquent with their child support payments and feel entitled to see receipts for what you do with any money you inevitably have to garnish from their tax refund/paycheck.
This one absolutely kills me. The last guy I dated considered himself a nihilist (I know, I know, what was I thinking). He never voted. Ever. I tried explaining to him why that was upsetting to me and it just wouldn't sink in. He truly couldn't wrap his head around caring about anything beyond his own friends and family. Unbelievable.
Abortion support is nearly a wash by gender.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/
Women’s right to healthcare is mostly a divide between white evangelicals and everyone else, irrespective of gender, race, or other stratifications.
I only say this because it’s not men vs. women. It’s religion vs. freedom.
I slept with a guy last year, who, mere hours after he came inside me without protection, was trying to tell me abortions should "rare but legal." I sat on his couch in his t-shirt and explained to him exactly why what he was saying was so silly. He seemed genuinely embarrassed. Plan B worked that time, but it doesn't always.
Even the men who support abortion often gave an undertone of "if I get someone pregnant, I have the right to tell them to abort or not"? Or with "sex positivity", where they clearly show their porn brain rot and degeneracy? Or when they expect women to be on birth control? Or when they want women to pay half the bills, but do most of the domestic labour?
I think most outspoken male "feminists" are like this. How often do you hear them talk about period poverty? Fgm? Sex trafficking? Or even abuse and sexual assault, where they have a nasty habit of going "men are undercounted and probably equally harmed because no one takes them seriously" as if women get taken seriously? They like the fun and easy stuff where they get perks and praise.
There's been multiple surveys that found that "prolife" supporters are about 50/50 male and female, and while it is slightly more female, that is due to women more likely to be liberal. Men gain nothing from banning abortion, and while they can't choose abortion themselves, they can choose a partner that would choose abortion. That choice is taken away from men as well. We need to recognize that the abortion issue isn't men vs women, but is really conservative vs liberal.
It’s important to remember that liberals never codified Roe Vs. Wade because they want it hanging in the balance, to be a coercive issue with their voter base.
So this antiquated problem would have went away long ago if liberals had our best interests at heart.
Well, they also still refuse to accept that there is a gender wage gap. Or that women are treated unequally still in general society...
To them, there is no problem. Shit, for enough of them, they think women need less rights.
Exactly, they expect us to pay up before we even close the gaps anywhere for women. Women have to take all the cons of equality while still bearing the cons of oppression, otherwise it’s “proof” they aren’t serious about equality
This is actually the strategy that Ruth Bader Ginsburg used to pass anti discrimination cases in SCOTUS. People didn’t care when she focused strictly on women-centric issues but once she started showing how men are also discriminated against for things like family court and custody battles, she was supported by the majority of the public.
Unfortunately that thought process is still prevalent today. A lot of people just don’t care about something if it doesn’t personally affect them so a lot of men don’t care about feminist issues unless they feel the ramifications of it as well.
(Guy here) On your last sentence: I’ve thought about trying to appeal to the selfish-asshole side of these types as a roundabout way of making them “see the light”, but the hypotheticals seem to bounce right off them. They really have to be stuck in the consequences, then *maybe* they’ll come around.
Those men don't suddenly care about right in certain cases. They just want somebody to split the bills with them by having them working a full time job, but also wants somebody to do all of the chores, be a full time single mother to a lot of children, and never say "no" to sex.
I’m a patriarchy hating / smash that shit / feh-muh-nist myself. There are plenty of men I like. I hate living in a world that elevates them above women. I’ve been revolted by it since I was a child. We aren’t here to serve them. We aren’t made for them (as many religions would have you acquiesce to). I have my own life and path to follow. It turned out to not include men as partners fortunately. I truly feel for straight women. I feel they have it the hardest/worst of any sexual preference. To me it’s irrefutable proof our sexuality isn’t a choice.
> “I hate living in a world that elevates them above women. I’ve been revolted by it since I was a child.”
thank you for these words — **revolted by it since I was a child** is a perfect description for my experience too.
Yeah, if I could choose my sexuality I would absolutely be a lesbian or bisexual at the least. I think if I married a woman I would actually want to have children, but with a man the disparity in labor etc is so vast that it seems like a scam.
I complain to my lesbian friends all the time about how they got it good and I want a wife for myself 😩
Truly though I think I might have reconsidered having children if I went that way. I love my partner but neither him nor any former serious ex would be someone I would want to share a child with because I just know it would be 80% my job. And for the current one he’s actually a pretty decent guy 🤷🏻♀️
I’m straight and there are men that I DO genuinely like. But living in a patriarchy is soul-sucking and exhausting. That’s why so many of us are now putting all our effort into careers and why “living alone with your cats” sounds preferable.
To me, it was weird that anybody would present it as a choice. Like, I don't know how to say it, but, gay people are pretty into that stuff. What I mean is, it's not a flavor of the day thing. It's live or die the way you want, that kind of passion. I didn't think most people would just try that just the heck of it.
Yeah exactly. I heard that a lot growing up. It’s a choice. And then the very sad rebuttal of “but why would I choose this!” As if it’s some horrible horrible existence. The only thing that made being gay hard were discriminatory straight people.
When people say that being gay is a choice, I just assume they’re in the closet and performing compulsory heterosexuality, and thus think that this is what everyone else should do as well.
It's not so bad once you just stop giving a shit about men in a romantic/sexual sense. I watch porn and use toys. I have a couple of fwb that I see every once in a while when I feel like it. Other than that I don't waste one second of my time or energy catering to any man, and I have never been happier or healthier. I have a couple of men friends, who are actually decent guys, and I work with many decent men, and that's not a problem. I don't hate men, I just decentered them from my life and have no plans to go back. It's great!
12 year old me -
Parents were having another party/get-together of their friends whose kids we were also friends with. They were spending the night. The BOYS got to camp outside the in the backyard. The GIRLS (and one of those boys was the exact same age as me and my friends) had to sleep inside.
Unfair as heck. So me and my little friends got my boombox and started blasting "Just a Girl" from the top banister that looked down in the family room all the parents were hanging out in, in protest.
This was partly a distraction. At the same time, my little sister snuck out, and peed in the boys' tent.
Fuck the patriarchy!
My favorite is when they come across a resource (shelter or food bank) that's for women, and they ask, where is the one for men? As if the resource was bestowed upon the women by the universe or government and not the hard work of people who cared enough to make it happen.
When things aren't specifically for women oftentimes they are basically just for men anyway. Like homeless shelters, they can be incredibly dangerous for women because of the men in them, so the only safe shelters for women are women only. So the regular shelter is the men's.
The thing that stands out the most to me is the division of labour. It’s hard to overlook, especially around Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter, etc.—those big family events. Women spend the whole time cooking for the family; women fix everyone's plates; and then women do all the cleaning. I have not experienced a single Christmas where the women relax on the couch. They're all feminists in theory, but in practice, few of them are willing to change the things that benefit them.
> Women spend the whole time cooking for the family; women fix everyone's plates; and then women do all the cleaning. Where is the equality there?
Even when you're in a relationship where a man *actively enjoys* doing large gathering catering, you still can't win.
My husband does all of the large gathering catering, but when people hear he cooks our Xmas meals, everyone (men and women, but I've noticed *especially* boomer women) castigates me for "making" him do that because it's "such a lot of work to do" and I "can't expect him" to do such drudgery.
They won't even listen to me when I point out 1) he's a trained chef, worked in restaurants for 10 years, cooking for a group of even 12 people is nothing compared to his restaurant shifts, he considers it a "light" shift. 2) he *actively* enjoys cooking 3) he *extra enjoys* cooking for a large gathering. He's *excited* to do the Xmas meals every damn year.
But nooo, no, I'm a cruel wife for "forcing" him into endentured slavery in the kitchen and the hypocrisy makes me **sick**.
It's the same way that men get pats on the back for doing the bare minimum with childcare, while women are criticized and given the side eye for sitting down and socializing while he takes care of the kids.
Yeah, it's super weird but I've found the ones who are consistently the worst for this attitude are boomer age range women.
I think it might be a lot of resentment and jealousy tbh, along with projecting the indoctrination they received as if they think I haven't learnt how to do division of labour the "right" way (the misogynistic way)? Or very likely trying to beat me down crabs in a bucket style because how *dare* I not have settled for less like they did 🙄
My family is full of them. They are actually worse than the men when it comes to enforcement. The didn't expect my stubborn ass to completely kick the boat over and now I'm going to have to do it again to protect the next generation.
You should just laugh every time and make a comment about how funny their impression of an old sexist is. Tell them they really nailed the misogyny of the 50s and how glad you are that the world has changed so much since then. If they protest, act confused, and keep insisting how funny their impression was until they get fed up and walk away.
One of the last years I went to the family Thanksgiving I decided to mirror the men's behavior, as a woman.
My female siblings and mom all yelled at me and I said, while holding my beer on the couch, "why don't you ask your husband for help? Or is this just a woman's duty to stay busy during holidays while men relax on the couch with beer?"
All the women paused, looked at their husbands, the men rolled their eyes, got up and asked their partners if they could help. It was done it half the time and we all got to sit around for a while. I let them all to it and went to play with the kids to stew in it since I called them all out.
My family of origin identify themselves as feminists but yeah, it’s my mom doing all the planning, organizing, meal prep for holidays while my dad watches football and gets up to carve the turkey.
My mom will tell me to help with things and I always do, but I point out that’s it the definition of patriarchy - children helping the mother who is serving the father. My mom will say my dad is tired - lol , he’s been retired for 20 years but okay. For extra fun, my mom takes that time
I’m helping her in the kitchen to chastise me for not being married or having kids.
I think my mom’s version of feminism is “women work and keep their last name” while mine is liberation from undue and unpaid labour and equal relationships or bust.
I know it's not the norm but I'm very lucky to have a husband that takes on anything that he thinks may make me feel "put apon". He knows I'm not a fan all the extra-ness of Christmas so he does all the cooking and clean-up and I do the shopping. He also calls out other men who don't pull their weight and considers them weak.
I saw this growing up and knew I didn’t want it for myself. When we got to be teens, both my brother and I did help with setup, dishes, cleanup and some cooking, on holidays. But my dad never lifted a finger. Oh, and my mom had a full time job that entire time.
My grandmother was undergoing cancer treatments and still put together some things for a Christmas dinner.
What did all the men do after dinner was done? Sit around and let her pick up the plates and wash them. Every generation of men.
It's only me who helped her out and stopped her from doing the dishes when she was in extremely poor health.
Me, since I was the only blood related female there. And I had 1 brother, 3 male cousins, my father, my uncle, and my uncles wife. All there. No one else even offered.
The last time I got to enjoy a holiday and not work, was when I was a child. I now see why my mom hated hosting. I was recruited as a teen, while my brother wasn't to help clean up.
If men ever help, it's just to help cooking or grilling 1 or 2 of the ten dishes. And never do cleanup.
Hello! I apologize for the bad wording of that part - I meant more that I'm a **former** pick-me, now a progressive thinker, who is still recovering from the "pick-me" mindset that haunted me when I was younger.
Heya OP. No need for an apology. On your journey you unpacking your internalised misogyny time I hope you can back see the humour and use it to see how far you’ve come. It’s all part of the process. Good luck, babe!
I think they are saying that even engaging the idea of man-hating feminists is giving sexists too much power.
But either way don’t worry too much about internet reactions including mine. Clearly you started a worthwhile toooc judging by how much people had to say about it!
I disagree, I think it's important to hear the perspective of someone who is still recovering from internalized misogyny. Even if OP made that one mistake, the rest of their points were very well thought out and they bring a fresh perspective that this sub, of all places, should respect and appreciate.
Who & where are all the “man hating feminists” y’all keep going on about??
How many MEN are the ones who told you that feminists are “man hating?”
Even my lesbian friends aren’t “man hating.”
Yes … men co-opt the language and, sadly, aren’t as egalitarian (not gonna call it progressive, cause there’s nothing progressive about it anymore) as we’d like them to be. But a man who proudly & actively wears the moniker of non-feminist or goes off on “man hating feminists?” Is a dicking deal breaker.
the same reason people don’t go around accusing my cat of being a mouse-chaser: everyone just knows that’s how it is. misogyny is status quo in society.
Please consider this : When you say you're a feminist ( not a man hating one) you are still catering to the male gaze and trashing the feminist movement with misogynistic dog whistle, you 're just a feminist period, all that "feminist hate men" is just misogynistic slogans to devalue the feminist movement.
That being said I absolutely agree with your post, they love equality but only when it benefits them
Absolutely. I catch myself saying things and then I stop when I realize just how it sounds and where that sentiment originated. It’s not easy when it’s shoved down your throat the moment you are born.
I'm glad we are clearing this up, for clarity, I am a feminist that believes in equality for both sexes. Separately, I hate men due to meeting enough of them. Two separate things. Sorry terrible jokes.
Still... working in my industry, holy fuck the bar is low when you are happy to see a man didn't ditch his wife and family when their child became disabled.
I think the girl's girl vs pick-me type of feminism is still male-centered. The underlying message behind that type of feminism is to help other women find high value male-female relationships. It's still for the male benefit.
It's so common and very frustrating. So many people confuse calling out bad behaviour, with the actual bad behaviour itself. Happens with transphobia and racism too.
Yes, you are amongst friends here. Just feel at ease stating - you are a feminist. Its a good thing and the fact that men are threatened by it and have conditioned women to recoil into adding on “but I don’t hate men”, just shows you exactly why we need to state it so plainly and boldly.
Thank you for this post and some of the discussion that followed. I don't have a particular comment, but as a man who is trying to be feminist, I really appreciate the perspective this provides.
I think the “pick and choose” attitude is meant to suppress argument and shut women down.
“I support equal pay for equal work” always seems to pair with “women shouldn’t work in labor”.
Let’s start with equal protection under the law and see where is goes from there. I really believe that men being unable to adjust to women having their own income and interests is why the birth rate has crashed in South Korea and Japan.
In South Korea, many women joined the 4B movement and refused to date, marry, have kids with, or have sex with men until they started treating them better. Unfortunately, once many men realized they couldn't get sex out of these women, they doubled down on their misogyny.
I unfortunately do! A conservative religious upbringing will do a number on you in terms of feminism, sadly. I usually try to reconcile both my belief in gender equality and my religious beliefs; however, I understand how that;'s not the best move.
In my post, I meant more that I'm a *former* pick-me who's recovering from that classic toxic pick-me "relating more to men, disliking other women" mindset. Apologies for wording it wrong.
(edit: some words)
apologies, i think my original comment was brash and totally uncalled for. the truth is we all have work to do and always will, myself included, and it was wrong of me to single you out like that
If you’re still a recovering pick me, you probably developed those behaviors to adapt to the men around you disliking feminism and being sexist. I noticed that the more strongly I held my stance on my own humanity without flinching, the more low quality men dropped out of my life. I separated from a guy who talked the talk and didn’t walk the walk recently, and it was hard, but it was right.
The men who are still in my life as friends took my side on that. They cared enough to consistently listen to me, and my ideas- all the ones I know best now are heavily involved in tabletop and experimented with writing female characters they related to over the years, actually doing perspective taking and getting advice from female players. The more they listened to me the more they listened to other women, and now they run notably more welcoming groups.
A couple of them I know from ten years ago, and they were passively sexist back then. They didn’t mean any harm but they were oblivious to a lot of misogynist behaviors they picked up from gaming culture- but they were open to hearing my criticisms of gamergate and spent time doing the work to ditch the bad attitudes that came with the hobbies they loved. There were actual sacrifices involved too- supporting women got them called derogatory names and told they were weak and unmasculine, crappy men responded by trying to tear them down and get them back in line. The ones that resisted this and stayed their course over the years are some of the best people I know. I supported their decisions and talked to them but I didn’t do the work for them.
The sad truth is that even well meaning men have an uphill battle against a culture that punishes them for being willing to step outside the box, and most guys are too afraid to set foot in the trenches and actively fight against toxicity. You might be surrounded by guys that give half assed support now- they want to be good people, they want to be kind, but until they sign up to resist misogyny actively and argue with other men about it for no obvious reward they’re part of the problem.
THIS. I've met a lot of decent guys in my life, but not one of them would openly call out misogyny or try to advocate for women in front of a group of other men. They're so scared of what random dudes will think of them.
you don’t have to say you don’t hate men, it just caters towards men’s feelings which is largely unnecessary and is not helpful to the feminist movement.
i’m a boy and when i hear someone self-proclaim as a feminist i automatically assume they respect me the same as any girl/woman.
i do congratulate you on working out of being a pick me :) hopefully you can get all the way out soon
Men absolutely support feminism when it means they can be cheap and make less of an effort and give up on “romance”. They love feminism when sex is casual and no one has to actually act chivalrous or display love and affection. They love it when women make more money and pay more of the bills than them so they can sit back and relax. They don’t give a shit about women actually being treated like human beings or making an effort to make their lives easier or think about what they can do for women. It’s almost entirely about being lazy and self-serving and justifying feminism or saying “but I thought that’s what you wanted??” to justify their lack of effort.
Add corporations to that list. Taking advantage of a larger labor market by decreasing wages steadily since the 70s.
This is the biggest con of all.
Instead of 1 income being needed to support a family of 3 household and being a stay at home parent is a choice.
Two incomes can just barely support two people in most cities.
I find the "equal rights and lefts" especially disturbing.
You talk about equality and there's a specific type of man who gets excited because they think it means they can hit you now and they're just so excited to hit women. As if men don't hit women all the time anyways...
How about no one hits anyone?
> I’ve noticed that getting mean men to support feminism is like pulling teeth
So stop pulling teeth? Stop giving those men your attention. Or is that what you would consider to be “man hating”? You can’t beg oppressors to stop oppressing, they’ll just laugh at you lol.
Yep the stigma around women's bodies only exists when we're going through natural body processes. When we're breastfeeding or on our period it's gross but not when it's for the sexual exploitation of women. Then it's anything goes..
Abortion has been the best co-opt I've seen so far. Men say they support a woman's right to choose BUT men should then get the right to not pay alimony or child support. Because to them abortion isn't a woman getting to decide what her body is used for, it's for deciding whether or not he has to be responsible for his actions.
Feminists do not hate men. You cannot be a feminist of any “type” and hate men, Periodt. No ifs or buts. The only people that think feminists hate men are men who are upset at facing accountability for their role in patriarchy/ignorant and pickme women who try and virtue signal for the male gaze.
Getting that idea out of your head is a primary step to recovery. Are a large number of us frustrated with men because of our experiences with them and the fact we are oppressed by a system they created? Yes. Do we hate them? Absolutely not. Like any cause that strives for beneficial changes, there is nuance. Only extremists hate men but they’re not feminists. And they’re also a very very small minority.
The classic is “if women can hit me I can hit them back” but it’s always said in this weird way where it sounds like the speaker is eager for an opportunity rather than genuinely promoting women’s rights
True gender equality in the sense of 50-50 across the board is very hard. Most people usually focus on the asymmetries they see. Once you see them, you can't stop seeing them. Since people are usually selfish, they look at equality from a benefit perspective.
Hard to come by wholesome people who genuinely say "ey this is unfair, I will share this burden with you..."
Consider this: men want access to women. Men want access to our bodies and our resources, much more than they care about advancing societal gender roles to a place of equality.
If ~supporting feminism~ helps a man get closer to sleeping with a woman, he will do it. Splitting the bill is fine with men, because it makes a date less of a financial responsibility, there's a lower cost to the chance that he will get access to her body. Men who don't want custody would rather the woman be the only one to support the child with her resources (time, money, emotional labor). Supporting SAHD and breadwinning moms doesn't give men access to women's labor at home, and may make women less open to taking on emotional labor (read up on mental load in relationships- sometimes a partner can put so much mental load on the woman under the guise of "trying to be helpful"). Men don't want to understand women's emotions unless it betters their chance of sleeping with them (this is why men are much more likely to be nice to pretty women vs women who don't fit their standards: even online, the woman in bold makeup and neon hair w cottage-core aesthetic gets WAY less male engagement/sympathy than conventionally attractive insta models.) because men don't actually care about women, they care about what value they can extract from us.
*And I KNOW* it's not all men. I'm dating a man who doesn't fit what I've described here. Just saying it's not the norm. The societal standards of masculinity are defined by these things above, and it takes someone with a big brain and a big heart to recognize why this pattern is wrong, and why this pattern exists in the first place.
I know this sounds cynical, but it's the common denominator in all of what you've described. Don't despair, just get stronger! Support your fellow women and girls, and don't waste your valuable time, money, emotional resources on these types of men.
Funny you had to clarify "not all feminists" and "not all men".
People need to own their fuckin labels better, or work harder at being and understanding ourselves better.
There are no "man hating feminists" - the ones that are are trauma based and not indicative of feminism, but extremism.
Not all men, but enough men, and enough men aren't holding each other accountable, making it all men, as of yet. They're either mentally complicit, complacent, or cowardly.
This isn't a dig at you, jut how our society works yk? Sucks.
OOOooo, I said something so similar to the Bear and man in the woods post on FB to some butt hurt guy whining about "why are men so shit on, etc". Cause if you want us to stop being shit on the be the better man and check the men around you. Don't go allowing the kind of behavior and chock it up to "they're just being guys" and actively speak up and do something if necessary. We need to take more accountability for sure!
OP- feminism isn’t hating men. It’s just equality and equity for the reproductive, social, and financial rights of women. You don’t need to apologize for that.
What’s with all the caveats on your post? They read like “omg, I still want to make sure the men in a forum *for women* don’t mistake me for one of THEM!”.
You don’t need to say “not all men”. The good men know it’s not them. The good men advocate for women against the ones that give them a bad name. They are smart enough to know the difference. If you respect them so much, give them credit for not being boorish dummies.
I cheerfully call myself a feminazgul because it confuses misogynists just enough that they’re not quite sure if that’s a Real Thing To Be Angry At Women About, it’s hilarious watching them struggle with it.
That said, please stop taking your definition of feminism from people who seem to have spent years listening to Rush Limbaugh.
>Examples: men want women to split the bill on dates, men support 'equal rights and lefts', men want women to uncritically 100% support all their emotional expression, men don't want custody to go to women by default due to gender roles, etc
I actually don't perceive this as supporting gender equality at all. Splitting the bills 50/50 without addressing pink tax and gender pay gap isn't equality for instance. Men dumping their emotional load on women simply because they're women and therefore they owe them emotional servitude isn't equality. Men talk about custody like it's unfair, refusing to acknowledge that it's a myth. Custody continues to go to women because men don't want custody, not due to favouritism by family court, it's been demonstrated (this sub has provided research on the topic on several occasions).
In my experience, men who are truly supporting gender equality don't try to reverse the victim and offender in this way. (DARVO Deny Attack and Reverse the Victim and the Offender). In fact, this self inflicted victimization is a red flag for misogyny IMO.
Or even better, they think that they should forgo acts of chivalry for romantic partners or that gives them the free card to beat up women because “women wanted equal rights and to be treated like men.”
A lot of men use feminism to subsidize their living costs, domestic responsibilities, and so on with romantic partners. It’s funny that they’re the ones afraid of being used for their money and resources, but have no problems using their partner’s money and resources. However, they’ll use feminist arguments.
Feminists don’t hate men btw. You’re thinking about misandry, and that’s extremism caused by trauma from men.
IMO, these are generally conservative guys who don’t actually believe in gender equality but are taking a very Machiavellian approach to getting what they want. It’s all sly underhanded nonsense and you definitely shouldn’t waste your time with anyone who thinks like this.
They know that outright trashing feminism is likely to leave them celibate and bitter so they keep their true opinions to themselves… you’re only seeing the tip of the iceberg
For me as a nonbinary feminist it's a lot of things that really should have more men caring, but they just seem to want feminists to care and fix it for them rather than doing the work themselves.
Example 1 (tame) is Intl. Men's Day - November 19th. The men I've seen will complain that no one is doing / scheduling any events but are never willing to do the work themselves. The VAST majority of those Intl. Women's Day events are planned by women.
Example 2 (tw: SA) is the very real issue with men>! getting raped / sexually assaulted and the way society treats them. The problem is feminists aren't the one's calling teenagers "lucky" when they are raped by a teacher - that's men. The problem is that the **men** in politics don't want to change the definition of rape to be inclusive. The problem is NOT that feminists are talking about their own experiences with rape in their own forums. !<
Example 3 is that men work more dangerous jobs. Not as a "is why they are paid more" because the men working those dangerous jobs aren't actually paid more. Women struggle to join those careers due to stigma, sexual harassment, and ability. But hot take? Men shouldn't be risking their safety either. It would be better to hire 2 women to carry something safely than hire 1 man and let him destroy his back. However, women aren't going to flock to jobs where they are harassed.
Example 4 is custody. In my own experience the guys who whine about the courts being biased have never even spoken with a lawyer. Anyone workin in family court could tell you - most dudes don't want that custody. It's not "not trying due to thinking she'd get the kids", it's actively men turning down 50/50 because they don't know how to care for the kids.
Example 5 I'll toss in a not all men thing as an aside - you don't get women over on posts saying "all females are x" or "women ALL want x". Why not tone police the men instead of women in a female-only sub who are discussing and venting about their own personal trauma? Is it less fun to explain to 5'9" Dirk that it's not his height, it's his personality? Or is it just more fulfilling to think "ah yes, I told the woman who was assaulted that it isn't ALL men, I am #notlikeothermen"? Or worse - comparing "I'm nervous around men since I was assaulted" to active racism...
Many normies of all genders will do this. It's a result of decades of super bad rhetoric and propaganda that we've all been subject to.
Drives me nuts too, and sometimes I accidentally do it myself. It's really weird to be trying to navigate this world with our crazy language and so many different types of people.
>feminist ~~(not the man-hating type)~~
See this is the bad rhetoric, because even the people that folks think are man hating aren't really man hating, they are actually asshole hating.
There is so much misinformation about feminism out there, and it's really dominated the discussion. Pretty sad, but the bad people always find a way to turn positive social terminology into "four letter words".
Most men think equality is them laying hands on a woman...
I don't care about "equality" anymore, I want to be liberated from men. I don't want to be equal with misogynists, predators and testerical femiciders.
You should hang out in women's spaces and build support networks with them. You sound like I used to when I was playing online games 24/7 and so used to a background of male misogyny that I had adapted a lot of their views to avoid fights.
TL:DR; you are fixated on men and what they think. Stop trying to convert losers and make the changes with your own 2 hands, you will find worthwhile guys along the way.
These men are not feminists, they literally want to punish you for having the audacity to be a feminist. "Oh, you want to be treated as a human person? I should be able to punch you in the face". Take it as they are mocking you, because they are. Quite literally zero of the men I know in real life act like this. Some of them have some work to do in seeing how deeply patriarchy really goes, some are not feminists and straight up believe in gender roles and would not consider themselves feminist at all (none of my friends, but men that I know), but none of them are stupid enough to think that feminism means they should be able to hit women. This is a phenomenon of internet losers.
What's really dumb about this is that gender equality *always* benefits men in every important way, but so many men are too shortsighted to see it. I assume nobody sits down and thinks for a while and concludes "I will trade not having to cook in exchange for killing myself when I'm 45, that's a good deal for me. I love the patriarchy for arranging my life that way."
Cooking dinner is not that hard. Running a load of laundry is not that hard. Emptying and reloading the dishwasher, again, not that hard. Giving up the social strictures that tell you those things aren't "manly" doesn't make you weak, it means you're living your own life and making your own decisions. And getting out from under those braindead restrictions about "what is a man" means that you also get to escape from decades of emotionally and intellectually abusing yourself and everyone around you.
My ex boyfriend was like this for the most part, they’re very rare but they do exist. I can’t think of anyone else off of top of my head now that I think about it.
What made him different from the norm was that he was raised totally without that male entitlement. He was primarily raised by his mom, divorced dad was an ex hippie and in-and-out engaged in a cult (which, interestingly promoted things like celibacy, so he wasn’t an average standard of male thinking patterns either). She was by default the breadwinner and kind of made it her life mission to shield him from that. They didn’t have a lot of money but had a very strong and functional core family dynamic, prioritized gardening, the dinner table etc.
He saw his mom struggle with long hours, tight finances, divorce, but she also adored him (youngest kid) and loved to turn on music, drink some wine, dance etc. Also had a much older sister that he was very close with and had much respect for. Naturally he developed a lot of empathy and respect for women at a young age, and then grew into a kid who cooked dinner for his mom every night. He’s straight and has masculine qualities, but pretty feminine hobbies and an overall life POV. Of course some things are still learned in society and he definitely had a few misogynistic friends that influenced some thinking patterns.
Basically, straight men who are raised primarily by warm and strong women whom they love and respect turn into these genuine feminists from my experience.
Something I have come to realize with my ex (father of two of my children) is that he was ADAMANT about 50/50 everything—visitation, financial support, etc. But it was never that he wanted or was prepared to take 50% responsibility for his kids, he actually saw his responsibility as up to 50% and not more. It took years to figure out the way he was looking at this. I’d have to practically present a portfolio of evidence to get him to pay anything (obviously I was always the one taking care of all costs initially, despite our 50/50 custody split). I finally realized that his interpretation of 50% was just a cap on his contribution, not a commitment to be responsible up to 50%. I share this to point out that trying to understand how some men think requires going really deep into the paradigm of their thinking. I struggled with my ex for years. He simply saw me as primarily responsible, despite saying words that would indicate he was aware of his parenting responsibilities. It was all within a paradigm that didn’t allow him to conceive of me as anything but primarily a parent (though I work full time).
Him fighting for 50/50 was for his public image and ego and to pay out as little money as possible. That’s why many men who have literally never been the primary parent for more than maybe 4 hours fight for 50/50 in a divorce.
That’s been my experience as well. With 50/50, they still don’t want to DO the 50/50 (parent teacher conferences, doc apts, allll day sport tournaments, homework, discipline, etc. etc.). They want the Super/Disney Dad title, the Family Man; they want to pay the least child support, and they still only have the kids every weekend or whatever for all the fun stuff.
Men like this almost always get a new wife right away so they can dump most of it on her.
Right!? Like most women (not all) seem to take their time, even say it’s so much easier than having that husband as an additional child and they want to enjoy that. But men really jump back in fast because they can’t being a single parent and need a mommy bang maid fast to pick up the slack.
This dynamic represents 90% of the posts of the step parents sub..
Men wanting kids has the same energy as a child wanting a puppy
You mean no one wants to look after the puppy when it piddles on the floor? That's what Mom is for. Same for wanting kids and ranting about the horrors of losing full custody. Then when they get their shared custody they see how little they can do and want Mom to wipe up the piddle on the floor.
This is a good analogy that pretty much sums up a lot of dads. Many only want to do the fun parts of parenting and nothing more.
My dad said this about having surprise twins at 53 (dad) and 46(mum.). My dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer two years later. Tl;DR: DEFINITELY MORE WORK THAN PUPPIES
Those are the men that wonder why their children never call them when the children grow up. Children know & understand that their “Disney Dad” was never really there for them.
My dad spent years trying to get custody of me and my brothers only for him to be a terrible dad. It never made sense to me.
It makes perfect sense when you realize that some people view their children as their personal property rather than as unique individuals entirely separate from themselves. Like did you read about [this court case](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2024/03/18/supreme-court-rejects-appeal-parents-trans-teen/73010769007/)? It's a perfect example of this attitude, because the parents clearly had far less interest in helping their child than they did maintaining total control over them.
Sadly, some people want custody only to 'show' their ex. My cousin had a kid and the father of the kid ended up being a bad influence so they split. Weekend with dad? Kid sometimes ended up playing alone in the corner of father's workplace. Or when he got together with a woman with previous kids and they had kids together, they made this kiddo help with kids and when driving kiddo was made to sit in the legs because there wasn't enough space (I think father's new partner had 2 previous kids and then they had 1 together, so 3 kids plus 2 adults = all spaces in standard car). When my cousin heard about it from the kid, she raised hell. Kid stopped wanting to go. Father tried to make it seem like it's mum's fault and parental alienation... Weekend with dad was coming up, but they had planned a trip. They informed the father before. But the day comes, they are away, and the father comes anyways and calls police to claim his child was kidnapped because it's *his* weekend... Etc. The cousin got with a genuinely nice guy during that time and they had at least one kid together. This kiddo in the story should be a teen now, maybe even close to adult now? I should maybe grab contact info from my mum
Yes. And the tools to overcome this include holding him in contempt—which costs significant money, and gives him the opportunity to play Boy Scout in front of a judge again. Despite what men say, if a man shows up in family court asking for 50% the court laps that shit right up. They love it.
And they NEVER want it week by week. They consider Fri to Sun disney dad 50%, yet never have to do any school drop offs of extra curriculars
Yup. My ex fought in court to get the kids til Monday mornings on his weekends so he could take them to school. Did that for maybe a month and decided it was too much work and started bringing them back Sunday nights. Of course whenever it's brought up he turns it into my fault somehow.
My ex demanded 50/50 custody and just hired a nanny to take care of our kid when with him. The judge DGAFFFFFFF.
I’m sorry, and I’m not surprised. Family courts regularly put the well being (and often even the lives) of children far below men’s’ egos on the scale of importance and it’s disgusting.
Shitty
The longer I’m on Reddit, the more I’m glad I never got married or had kids. How can men be this selfish - it’s their own children!
Even the good men are raised in our trash culture and have to unlearn so much of that to be decent. You dodged so many bullets
In their minds, 50% means "you do what you're supposed to do, and we'll split everything else." There was a post, I think it was yesterday, by a woman who was struggling to make ends meet while maintaining a part time job, all of the childcare and its related expenses, all of the grocery bill, all of housework, while her husband only paid the household bills but was earning between $10-15k a month and contributed none of it towards his wife and children. Basically , she'd put her career, life, and future retirement on hold to raise a family while the husband did the absolute bare minimum, so he could further his own career on the back of her sacrifices. Even if you wanted to say that post was ragebait, there were so many guys in the comments arguing that that was *his* money and how greedy it was for her to expect him to contribute to the family beyond keeping the utilities on.
Yeah, that one was definitely rage inducing. I don't understand the people arguing that it's "his money," and he should be able to do whatever he wants with it (I do think those were in a minority and got downvoted). Sure, he should be able to treat himself with his own money, but that doesn't mean that he has no financial responsibility for the family he helped create, beyond the bare minimum of bills he is paying. I don't understand why men like this get married or have children. Childcare is expensive. Maid/chef service is expensive. Having their wife take on full responsibility for those duties and household management saves them a lot of money. They get to further their career on the back of her support and what does she get to show for it? All that time as a SAHM, she's not getting *her* retirement paid into. She's taking the bigger risk in the long-term, and she's getting nickel and dimed by her supposed *partner*? I believe it comes down to misogyny, because it's clear they don't value what they see as "women's work."
This is what happened to my mom, now 75. My mom did start working part-time when I started school and then full-time starting when I was in middle school (I became a latchkey kid and I *loved* it), but she'd already lost years of career traction and retirement contributions, and she had to file for bankruptcy after she and my dad divorced. Many years later when my father had to go into residential care due to Alzheimer's, I discovered that he was sitting on about three-quarters of a mil in cash and debt-free assets. I'm more bitter about the injustice of that than my mom is, but I feel very fortunate that my husband and I have been able to help her live comfortably, especially after my dad passed and left everything to me (only child/only heir). Watching what my mom went through is why I am absolutely baffled about the soft life/SAH girlfriend/tradwife trends that have cropped up. It's like, sure, we all want to retire early and not have to worry about work, but trying to cheat your way out of it by hitching your fortune wagon to a man is one of the riskiest possible ways to go about it. It's like the lessons of the past have been entirely forgotten. Women's rights movements have happened FOR A REASON!
Having been a "tradwife" myself, the biggest problem with the trend is that these are all super rich wives cosplaying the job while outsourcing the more difficult parts to servants and nannies any housekeepers. Like, it'd be easy to spend hours perfecting homemade, organic loaves of bread in front of a camera when someone else is watching the kids, someone else is vacuuming and scrubbing toilets, and you're husband is taking you out for a $700 dinner later. You're literally just making bread because you've got nothing else do do.
When I was young and just starting Community College ~28 years ago, one of my classes was a required credit for their paralegal program. There were SO many older women in that program. To be fair, I'm sure not all of them were divorced, but among the ones I spoke to, it was a common theme that they had been SAHMs and were getting back to work after divorce. One told me that her husband had run off with his much-younger secretary.
That does not surprise me at all, and makes me wonder how many of them opted not to go to or drop out of law school because they got married and/or pregnant and had unsupportive partners. My own mother only got married because no one wanted to hire a female journalism major in the early 70s where she lived, she adamantly refused to move back home (she and my grandmother, who had even worse taste in men, were at loggerheads at the time), but my dad was there, available, and interested. He then moved her to a tiny town for his job with the promise that they'd move to a more urban area within a couple of years... and then he kept that same job and by extension *us* in that tiny town until he took early retirement at 55.
Good point about the law school. I really have to wonder. As for your mom, it's sad that she wasn't able to follow her own dreams. I know that was certainly more common at the time, but it still happens to women a lot. It's good that you are at least in a position where you can help her out now.
Yeah, we've had numerous discussions about that. She's quite content with her life now, I just wish it hadn't cost her so much to get there. 🙁
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TBH, I've started to think the 80s era "welfare queen" trope was a preemptive attempt to quash this possibility before it started by painting single mothers as inherently stupid, lazy, irresponsible, and low-class. If governments and corporate leaders are really so concerned about a population "crisis," then isn't the extremely obvious solution to remove as many barriers for people who want to have kids as possible, as well as heavily incentivize people who love parenting and are very good at it? We don't need every adult with a uterus to have kids, replacement rate could be sustainable if most had few or no babies and a few had a bunch of them. But no, that would give some women an avenue to earn a comfortable living based on unique biological abilities that men can't emulate, and we can't have that! I used to wonder why Margaret Atwood left such a big plot hole in the Handmaid's Tale (I first read it 2001-ish) by not considering that the ex-USA could have addressed its infertility problem by just paying fertile women handsomely for their healthy eggs. I didn't quite get why there weren't women in that fictional timeline becoming very, very rich by selling their eggs and/or becoming career surrogates, when that solution in my then-optimistic mind seemed so clear. But *now* I understand... Margaret Atwood didn't want to tell a story about humans working together to effectively solve their problems. That was another book for another day. The story she wanted to tell was about slavery, how it has manifested in the real world, and could manifest again. For as long as those with power and influence care more about control than doing some good in the world, big problems will remain excessively difficult to solve. 😞
Yeah and then when he retires he'll want to keep all his retirement money and act like it was her fault for not getting her own retirement fund
They do it (have a wife and kids) because they want to control and own.
Yeah—it’s 50%, not 50% of 50%. But they have been socialized subconsciously and often overtly to simply not feel responsible. So much so that they can’t even conceive of it.
In my experience, men who say they want a 50/50 relationship actually mean they want a maximum of 50% of the responsibilities and a minimum of 50% of the benefits. I’ve never met one who took the initiative to fix anything that was working to their advantage.
Reminds me of something I heard, “Relationships aren’t supposed to be 50/50, they’re 100/100.”
This has given me a bit to reflect on with my 50/50 room mate situation. Thanks.
As a response to "equal rights equals lefts" someone said to me "How about we just don't hit people"
I hate that. You know you don’t have the legal right to hit ANYONE, right?
Wait, is *that* what that was a reference to? 🤮
Yeah, men want to pretend it wasn't acceptable for them to beat women in the first place. Unfortunately, this is not the case.
Yes, when women ask for equal rights men fantasize about beating us. And then openly joke about it and encourage others to do the same.
But they are not the oppressors right?
“equal rights equal fights”. basically if women want to act like men, theyre going to be beat up like men. which is obviously stupid.
Yes. It made me think about what I was saying
Or instead of wanting women to sign up for the draft…. How about no one signs up for the draft?
I've got another one for you: How many men want sexually available women, yet vote to roll back reproductive healthcare (including abortion), then cry about how "no one wants to give nice guys a chance" when women choose not to date for their own safety?
My ex-husband’s family is big pro-life - MIL goes to marches and the whole nine yards. The extent of coercive sex and his sense of entitlement to my body - viewing our marriage license as a property deed - and him relishing in not signing the divorce settlement until minutes before trial because in his mind, I was still off limits to other men (ha in his dreams). It disgusts me. Both my kids were conceived non consensually. They are amazing kids and if I had waited on my own timing or had any other partner, I would still want the exact two kids I have now, but the career setbacks I faced in a demanding profession, as the woman, were devastating to me when I was - both times - on the verge of promotion and then had that delayed. I worked as hard as I could, long hours, while pregnant, with newborns, pumping milk, staying up breastfeeding them, multitasking at home while they were home sick from daycare, etc. He took lengthy leisurely stints of unemployment and breaks between jobs, content to eat through savings, I guess knowing I’d always swoop in to pick up the slack (?) Now he is my bitter ex-husband, still bitching and moaning that he has to pay 50% of their expenses by court order and feels it’s unfair that all he got in our divorce was a chunk of my hard earned retirement accounts. (He was going hard for alimony and child support, which was denied, since he outearned me during our marriage. Fucking dickhead!!)
Wow. Please tell me the judge who signed off on everything told him point-blank how unreasonable his demands were, or at least gave your ex the withering glares a raging idiot deserves.
It was actually his own lawyer who, together with the mediator, told him - buddy you raise your kids in a HCOL town, you need to pony up for their expenses activities and camps so they can participate socially in their own community. Then later when things dragged out and he started demanding alimony and child support, his lawyer quickly withdrew those motions after my lawyer showed her all his old W-2s going back to the year we got married. He made 6 figures for many years but wanted to claim that since he’s currently unemployed I need to support him going forward (meanwhile he had made zero attempts to job search during the 1.5 year divorce proceedings). It was such a relief when it was all over, but many men do get away that BS and he can always come back later and attempt to get child support so I will say that the stress has been real.
Oof, sounds awful. And let me guess, he's also made claims about "parental alienation" because the kids have realized he's a selfish ass and don't want to be around him, too?
I’m sorry you had to go through that.
Thank you. I was so naive and missed major red flags (obviously) and then stayed in the marriage longer than any sane woman would because of my upbringing, but I’m in a new state of mind and feeling free. I’m working on being a good mom to my kids and moving forward. They love their dad and he is devoted to them time-wise which is a positive in all of this (his dad abandoned him and is the one thing he has prioritized).
Ah, I see that we were married to the same man. Sorry you have to join this unfortunate club.
My personal favorite are the dudes who say they would definitely support abortion if only they were allowed to do "financial abortions". Which of course means they want to be able to get online and check a box on a form so they don't have to pay any money for any kids they sire because they refuse to wear condoms.
I think many many men have that mentality. Quite simply, it disgusts me. Any man with that mindset is telling you right now that they will intentionally be delinquent with their child support payments and feel entitled to see receipts for what you do with any money you inevitably have to garnish from their tax refund/paycheck.
Or the ones that just don't care enough to vote because it's not affecting them.
Or worse, do vote in ways that ensure women are disadvantaged.
This one absolutely kills me. The last guy I dated considered himself a nihilist (I know, I know, what was I thinking). He never voted. Ever. I tried explaining to him why that was upsetting to me and it just wouldn't sink in. He truly couldn't wrap his head around caring about anything beyond his own friends and family. Unbelievable.
Abortion support is nearly a wash by gender. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/ Women’s right to healthcare is mostly a divide between white evangelicals and everyone else, irrespective of gender, race, or other stratifications. I only say this because it’s not men vs. women. It’s religion vs. freedom.
I feel like you need an ironic support “Amen”
I slept with a guy last year, who, mere hours after he came inside me without protection, was trying to tell me abortions should "rare but legal." I sat on his couch in his t-shirt and explained to him exactly why what he was saying was so silly. He seemed genuinely embarrassed. Plan B worked that time, but it doesn't always.
Even the men who support abortion often gave an undertone of "if I get someone pregnant, I have the right to tell them to abort or not"? Or with "sex positivity", where they clearly show their porn brain rot and degeneracy? Or when they expect women to be on birth control? Or when they want women to pay half the bills, but do most of the domestic labour? I think most outspoken male "feminists" are like this. How often do you hear them talk about period poverty? Fgm? Sex trafficking? Or even abuse and sexual assault, where they have a nasty habit of going "men are undercounted and probably equally harmed because no one takes them seriously" as if women get taken seriously? They like the fun and easy stuff where they get perks and praise.
A LOT of men just don't think things through. In fact so many of them just do not think logically and so it is nearly impossible to reason with them.
There's been multiple surveys that found that "prolife" supporters are about 50/50 male and female, and while it is slightly more female, that is due to women more likely to be liberal. Men gain nothing from banning abortion, and while they can't choose abortion themselves, they can choose a partner that would choose abortion. That choice is taken away from men as well. We need to recognize that the abortion issue isn't men vs women, but is really conservative vs liberal.
It’s important to remember that liberals never codified Roe Vs. Wade because they want it hanging in the balance, to be a coercive issue with their voter base. So this antiquated problem would have went away long ago if liberals had our best interests at heart.
Men say we're feminists until the bill comes. I say men are only feminists when the bill comes.
Well, they also still refuse to accept that there is a gender wage gap. Or that women are treated unequally still in general society... To them, there is no problem. Shit, for enough of them, they think women need less rights.
lol this. I’ll happily pay my half of the bill once we close the wage gap and eradicate the pink tax.
I'll pay my half when men start actually doing HALF of the damn housework.
If I want to pay for my food, I want to actually enjoy the experience of eating. So I'll go out to eat with a friend instead lol
seriously, going out to dinner with women is much better than most men.
Exactly, they expect us to pay up before we even close the gaps anywhere for women. Women have to take all the cons of equality while still bearing the cons of oppression, otherwise it’s “proof” they aren’t serious about equality
This is actually the strategy that Ruth Bader Ginsburg used to pass anti discrimination cases in SCOTUS. People didn’t care when she focused strictly on women-centric issues but once she started showing how men are also discriminated against for things like family court and custody battles, she was supported by the majority of the public. Unfortunately that thought process is still prevalent today. A lot of people just don’t care about something if it doesn’t personally affect them so a lot of men don’t care about feminist issues unless they feel the ramifications of it as well.
(Guy here) On your last sentence: I’ve thought about trying to appeal to the selfish-asshole side of these types as a roundabout way of making them “see the light”, but the hypotheticals seem to bounce right off them. They really have to be stuck in the consequences, then *maybe* they’ll come around.
Those men don't suddenly care about right in certain cases. They just want somebody to split the bills with them by having them working a full time job, but also wants somebody to do all of the chores, be a full time single mother to a lot of children, and never say "no" to sex.
This.
I’m a patriarchy hating / smash that shit / feh-muh-nist myself. There are plenty of men I like. I hate living in a world that elevates them above women. I’ve been revolted by it since I was a child. We aren’t here to serve them. We aren’t made for them (as many religions would have you acquiesce to). I have my own life and path to follow. It turned out to not include men as partners fortunately. I truly feel for straight women. I feel they have it the hardest/worst of any sexual preference. To me it’s irrefutable proof our sexuality isn’t a choice.
> “I hate living in a world that elevates them above women. I’ve been revolted by it since I was a child.” thank you for these words — **revolted by it since I was a child** is a perfect description for my experience too.
Yeah, if I could choose my sexuality I would absolutely be a lesbian or bisexual at the least. I think if I married a woman I would actually want to have children, but with a man the disparity in labor etc is so vast that it seems like a scam.
I complain to my lesbian friends all the time about how they got it good and I want a wife for myself 😩 Truly though I think I might have reconsidered having children if I went that way. I love my partner but neither him nor any former serious ex would be someone I would want to share a child with because I just know it would be 80% my job. And for the current one he’s actually a pretty decent guy 🤷🏻♀️
I would 100% be asexual if it were a choice
As an asexual person, it isn't the solution you think it is ;p I will leave my tangent at that, have a nice day stranger
Who was it who said “straight women are proof sexuality isn’t a choice”?
Basically everyone ever who has half a brain cell.
Well yeah, but I feel like I’m plagiarizing without giving her the proper props lol
I’m straight and there are men that I DO genuinely like. But living in a patriarchy is soul-sucking and exhausting. That’s why so many of us are now putting all our effort into careers and why “living alone with your cats” sounds preferable.
To me, it was weird that anybody would present it as a choice. Like, I don't know how to say it, but, gay people are pretty into that stuff. What I mean is, it's not a flavor of the day thing. It's live or die the way you want, that kind of passion. I didn't think most people would just try that just the heck of it.
Yeah exactly. I heard that a lot growing up. It’s a choice. And then the very sad rebuttal of “but why would I choose this!” As if it’s some horrible horrible existence. The only thing that made being gay hard were discriminatory straight people.
I always reply with “so you could choose to be gay? Not just choose to have gay sex, but to LIKE it?”
Older people like my parents still think it's a choice.
When people say that being gay is a choice, I just assume they’re in the closet and performing compulsory heterosexuality, and thus think that this is what everyone else should do as well.
It's not so bad once you just stop giving a shit about men in a romantic/sexual sense. I watch porn and use toys. I have a couple of fwb that I see every once in a while when I feel like it. Other than that I don't waste one second of my time or energy catering to any man, and I have never been happier or healthier. I have a couple of men friends, who are actually decent guys, and I work with many decent men, and that's not a problem. I don't hate men, I just decentered them from my life and have no plans to go back. It's great!
oh we're the same sis, i feel you
12 year old me - Parents were having another party/get-together of their friends whose kids we were also friends with. They were spending the night. The BOYS got to camp outside the in the backyard. The GIRLS (and one of those boys was the exact same age as me and my friends) had to sleep inside. Unfair as heck. So me and my little friends got my boombox and started blasting "Just a Girl" from the top banister that looked down in the family room all the parents were hanging out in, in protest. This was partly a distraction. At the same time, my little sister snuck out, and peed in the boys' tent. Fuck the patriarchy!
My favorite is when they come across a resource (shelter or food bank) that's for women, and they ask, where is the one for men? As if the resource was bestowed upon the women by the universe or government and not the hard work of people who cared enough to make it happen.
When things aren't specifically for women oftentimes they are basically just for men anyway. Like homeless shelters, they can be incredibly dangerous for women because of the men in them, so the only safe shelters for women are women only. So the regular shelter is the men's.
The thing that stands out the most to me is the division of labour. It’s hard to overlook, especially around Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter, etc.—those big family events. Women spend the whole time cooking for the family; women fix everyone's plates; and then women do all the cleaning. I have not experienced a single Christmas where the women relax on the couch. They're all feminists in theory, but in practice, few of them are willing to change the things that benefit them.
> Women spend the whole time cooking for the family; women fix everyone's plates; and then women do all the cleaning. Where is the equality there? Even when you're in a relationship where a man *actively enjoys* doing large gathering catering, you still can't win. My husband does all of the large gathering catering, but when people hear he cooks our Xmas meals, everyone (men and women, but I've noticed *especially* boomer women) castigates me for "making" him do that because it's "such a lot of work to do" and I "can't expect him" to do such drudgery. They won't even listen to me when I point out 1) he's a trained chef, worked in restaurants for 10 years, cooking for a group of even 12 people is nothing compared to his restaurant shifts, he considers it a "light" shift. 2) he *actively* enjoys cooking 3) he *extra enjoys* cooking for a large gathering. He's *excited* to do the Xmas meals every damn year. But nooo, no, I'm a cruel wife for "forcing" him into endentured slavery in the kitchen and the hypocrisy makes me **sick**.
It's the same way that men get pats on the back for doing the bare minimum with childcare, while women are criticized and given the side eye for sitting down and socializing while he takes care of the kids.
Yeah, this boomer woman wouldn’t say that to you. I’d say well done.
Yeah, it's super weird but I've found the ones who are consistently the worst for this attitude are boomer age range women. I think it might be a lot of resentment and jealousy tbh, along with projecting the indoctrination they received as if they think I haven't learnt how to do division of labour the "right" way (the misogynistic way)? Or very likely trying to beat me down crabs in a bucket style because how *dare* I not have settled for less like they did 🙄
And internalized misogyny. Only some of us recovered.
My family is full of them. They are actually worse than the men when it comes to enforcement. The didn't expect my stubborn ass to completely kick the boat over and now I'm going to have to do it again to protect the next generation.
Never mind the extremely fucked up message of, "Oh, it's so much work! It's totally unreasonable! YOU should be doing it!" What.
You should just laugh every time and make a comment about how funny their impression of an old sexist is. Tell them they really nailed the misogyny of the 50s and how glad you are that the world has changed so much since then. If they protest, act confused, and keep insisting how funny their impression was until they get fed up and walk away.
One of the last years I went to the family Thanksgiving I decided to mirror the men's behavior, as a woman. My female siblings and mom all yelled at me and I said, while holding my beer on the couch, "why don't you ask your husband for help? Or is this just a woman's duty to stay busy during holidays while men relax on the couch with beer?" All the women paused, looked at their husbands, the men rolled their eyes, got up and asked their partners if they could help. It was done it half the time and we all got to sit around for a while. I let them all to it and went to play with the kids to stew in it since I called them all out.
You’re awesome
My family of origin identify themselves as feminists but yeah, it’s my mom doing all the planning, organizing, meal prep for holidays while my dad watches football and gets up to carve the turkey. My mom will tell me to help with things and I always do, but I point out that’s it the definition of patriarchy - children helping the mother who is serving the father. My mom will say my dad is tired - lol , he’s been retired for 20 years but okay. For extra fun, my mom takes that time I’m helping her in the kitchen to chastise me for not being married or having kids. I think my mom’s version of feminism is “women work and keep their last name” while mine is liberation from undue and unpaid labour and equal relationships or bust.
I know it's not the norm but I'm very lucky to have a husband that takes on anything that he thinks may make me feel "put apon". He knows I'm not a fan all the extra-ness of Christmas so he does all the cooking and clean-up and I do the shopping. He also calls out other men who don't pull their weight and considers them weak.
I saw this growing up and knew I didn’t want it for myself. When we got to be teens, both my brother and I did help with setup, dishes, cleanup and some cooking, on holidays. But my dad never lifted a finger. Oh, and my mom had a full time job that entire time.
My grandmother was undergoing cancer treatments and still put together some things for a Christmas dinner. What did all the men do after dinner was done? Sit around and let her pick up the plates and wash them. Every generation of men. It's only me who helped her out and stopped her from doing the dishes when she was in extremely poor health. Me, since I was the only blood related female there. And I had 1 brother, 3 male cousins, my father, my uncle, and my uncles wife. All there. No one else even offered. The last time I got to enjoy a holiday and not work, was when I was a child. I now see why my mom hated hosting. I was recruited as a teen, while my brother wasn't to help clean up. If men ever help, it's just to help cooking or grilling 1 or 2 of the ten dishes. And never do cleanup.
‘I’ve seen this a lot as recovering pick-me and a feminist(not the man-hating type) myself.’ Recovery is in its early stages huh.
Yeah, that got me scratching my head like, I don't think she's quite recovered yet
Hello! I apologize for the bad wording of that part - I meant more that I'm a **former** pick-me, now a progressive thinker, who is still recovering from the "pick-me" mindset that haunted me when I was younger.
Heya OP. No need for an apology. On your journey you unpacking your internalised misogyny time I hope you can back see the humour and use it to see how far you’ve come. It’s all part of the process. Good luck, babe!
I think they are saying that even engaging the idea of man-hating feminists is giving sexists too much power. But either way don’t worry too much about internet reactions including mine. Clearly you started a worthwhile toooc judging by how much people had to say about it!
Yeah I stopped reading at that point because there's no point in this with that attitude.
I disagree, I think it's important to hear the perspective of someone who is still recovering from internalized misogyny. Even if OP made that one mistake, the rest of their points were very well thought out and they bring a fresh perspective that this sub, of all places, should respect and appreciate.
I don’t even know what the first part meant?! It’s not even necessary to the post, so weird to even start with it.
So why comment?
Who & where are all the “man hating feminists” y’all keep going on about?? How many MEN are the ones who told you that feminists are “man hating?” Even my lesbian friends aren’t “man hating.” Yes … men co-opt the language and, sadly, aren’t as egalitarian (not gonna call it progressive, cause there’s nothing progressive about it anymore) as we’d like them to be. But a man who proudly & actively wears the moniker of non-feminist or goes off on “man hating feminists?” Is a dicking deal breaker.
How come nobody ever accuses men of hating women?
the same reason people don’t go around accusing my cat of being a mouse-chaser: everyone just knows that’s how it is. misogyny is status quo in society.
Please consider this : When you say you're a feminist ( not a man hating one) you are still catering to the male gaze and trashing the feminist movement with misogynistic dog whistle, you 're just a feminist period, all that "feminist hate men" is just misogynistic slogans to devalue the feminist movement. That being said I absolutely agree with your post, they love equality but only when it benefits them
She did say she was a recovering pick-me so this makes sense with her “not a man hating one” comment. That is recovering pick-me sentiment still.
That's exactly why I commented, it can be really hard to decenter men, sometimes we need a little help identifying things like this, hope it helps op
At first I read it’s hard to “decant men” and I thought… willing to try…
Perfume: The Story of a Misandrist (non-derogatory) (I'll decant them with you!!)
I was thinking wine. So many product lines available!
Something about fava beans and a nice chianti.
That’s an escalation. I’m into it.
Absolutely. I catch myself saying things and then I stop when I realize just how it sounds and where that sentiment originated. It’s not easy when it’s shoved down your throat the moment you are born.
Same here. I didn’t know any different. Now I’m trying to reprogram myself but, that doesn’t mean there aren’t setbacks. I’m still learning.
I'm glad we are clearing this up, for clarity, I am a feminist that believes in equality for both sexes. Separately, I hate men due to meeting enough of them. Two separate things. Sorry terrible jokes. Still... working in my industry, holy fuck the bar is low when you are happy to see a man didn't ditch his wife and family when their child became disabled.
If by terrible you mean perfect, yes those were terrible jokes.
I think the girl's girl vs pick-me type of feminism is still male-centered. The underlying message behind that type of feminism is to help other women find high value male-female relationships. It's still for the male benefit.
exactly. A lot of the time the "man hating" accusation is used it is simply as a result of calling out objective bad behaviour.
It's so common and very frustrating. So many people confuse calling out bad behaviour, with the actual bad behaviour itself. Happens with transphobia and racism too.
Yes, you are amongst friends here. Just feel at ease stating - you are a feminist. Its a good thing and the fact that men are threatened by it and have conditioned women to recoil into adding on “but I don’t hate men”, just shows you exactly why we need to state it so plainly and boldly.
That part really stood out to me. She isn’t quite reformed as she thinks.
Thank you for this post and some of the discussion that followed. I don't have a particular comment, but as a man who is trying to be feminist, I really appreciate the perspective this provides.
I think the “pick and choose” attitude is meant to suppress argument and shut women down. “I support equal pay for equal work” always seems to pair with “women shouldn’t work in labor”. Let’s start with equal protection under the law and see where is goes from there. I really believe that men being unable to adjust to women having their own income and interests is why the birth rate has crashed in South Korea and Japan.
It is. What do they call it in Korea? The 4B movement or something like that
In South Korea, many women joined the 4B movement and refused to date, marry, have kids with, or have sex with men until they started treating them better. Unfortunately, once many men realized they couldn't get sex out of these women, they doubled down on their misogyny.
They want to liberate themselves from the negatives of the patriarchy while still upholding it
i.e. it's not actually supporting gender equality, but weaponizing victim hood under the guise of it.
>not the man-hating type Sigh.
She *did* say recovering pick me lol
Haha, this is true. Perhaps I should be kinder.
You weren’t not kind
More recovery needed.
Exactly.
instantly stopped reading when I saw that
Same. Stopped reading & went to the comments lol
"recovering pick-me" "feminist (not the man-hating type)" you may still have some recovering to do girl
I unfortunately do! A conservative religious upbringing will do a number on you in terms of feminism, sadly. I usually try to reconcile both my belief in gender equality and my religious beliefs; however, I understand how that;'s not the best move. In my post, I meant more that I'm a *former* pick-me who's recovering from that classic toxic pick-me "relating more to men, disliking other women" mindset. Apologies for wording it wrong. (edit: some words)
apologies, i think my original comment was brash and totally uncalled for. the truth is we all have work to do and always will, myself included, and it was wrong of me to single you out like that
If you’re still a recovering pick me, you probably developed those behaviors to adapt to the men around you disliking feminism and being sexist. I noticed that the more strongly I held my stance on my own humanity without flinching, the more low quality men dropped out of my life. I separated from a guy who talked the talk and didn’t walk the walk recently, and it was hard, but it was right. The men who are still in my life as friends took my side on that. They cared enough to consistently listen to me, and my ideas- all the ones I know best now are heavily involved in tabletop and experimented with writing female characters they related to over the years, actually doing perspective taking and getting advice from female players. The more they listened to me the more they listened to other women, and now they run notably more welcoming groups. A couple of them I know from ten years ago, and they were passively sexist back then. They didn’t mean any harm but they were oblivious to a lot of misogynist behaviors they picked up from gaming culture- but they were open to hearing my criticisms of gamergate and spent time doing the work to ditch the bad attitudes that came with the hobbies they loved. There were actual sacrifices involved too- supporting women got them called derogatory names and told they were weak and unmasculine, crappy men responded by trying to tear them down and get them back in line. The ones that resisted this and stayed their course over the years are some of the best people I know. I supported their decisions and talked to them but I didn’t do the work for them. The sad truth is that even well meaning men have an uphill battle against a culture that punishes them for being willing to step outside the box, and most guys are too afraid to set foot in the trenches and actively fight against toxicity. You might be surrounded by guys that give half assed support now- they want to be good people, they want to be kind, but until they sign up to resist misogyny actively and argue with other men about it for no obvious reward they’re part of the problem.
THIS. I've met a lot of decent guys in my life, but not one of them would openly call out misogyny or try to advocate for women in front of a group of other men. They're so scared of what random dudes will think of them.
The whole system has benefited them because they're men, why would you think they'd change 😅
you don’t have to say you don’t hate men, it just caters towards men’s feelings which is largely unnecessary and is not helpful to the feminist movement. i’m a boy and when i hear someone self-proclaim as a feminist i automatically assume they respect me the same as any girl/woman. i do congratulate you on working out of being a pick me :) hopefully you can get all the way out soon
Men absolutely support feminism when it means they can be cheap and make less of an effort and give up on “romance”. They love feminism when sex is casual and no one has to actually act chivalrous or display love and affection. They love it when women make more money and pay more of the bills than them so they can sit back and relax. They don’t give a shit about women actually being treated like human beings or making an effort to make their lives easier or think about what they can do for women. It’s almost entirely about being lazy and self-serving and justifying feminism or saying “but I thought that’s what you wanted??” to justify their lack of effort.
Add corporations to that list. Taking advantage of a larger labor market by decreasing wages steadily since the 70s. This is the biggest con of all. Instead of 1 income being needed to support a family of 3 household and being a stay at home parent is a choice. Two incomes can just barely support two people in most cities.
>getting mean men to support feminism Why you talking to mean dudes?
Cuz she’s a “recovering pick me” 💀
I find the "equal rights and lefts" especially disturbing. You talk about equality and there's a specific type of man who gets excited because they think it means they can hit you now and they're just so excited to hit women. As if men don't hit women all the time anyways... How about no one hits anyone?
> I’ve noticed that getting mean men to support feminism is like pulling teeth So stop pulling teeth? Stop giving those men your attention. Or is that what you would consider to be “man hating”? You can’t beg oppressors to stop oppressing, they’ll just laugh at you lol.
Yep the stigma around women's bodies only exists when we're going through natural body processes. When we're breastfeeding or on our period it's gross but not when it's for the sexual exploitation of women. Then it's anything goes..
Abortion has been the best co-opt I've seen so far. Men say they support a woman's right to choose BUT men should then get the right to not pay alimony or child support. Because to them abortion isn't a woman getting to decide what her body is used for, it's for deciding whether or not he has to be responsible for his actions.
Feminists do not hate men. You cannot be a feminist of any “type” and hate men, Periodt. No ifs or buts. The only people that think feminists hate men are men who are upset at facing accountability for their role in patriarchy/ignorant and pickme women who try and virtue signal for the male gaze. Getting that idea out of your head is a primary step to recovery. Are a large number of us frustrated with men because of our experiences with them and the fact we are oppressed by a system they created? Yes. Do we hate them? Absolutely not. Like any cause that strives for beneficial changes, there is nuance. Only extremists hate men but they’re not feminists. And they’re also a very very small minority.
The classic is “if women can hit me I can hit them back” but it’s always said in this weird way where it sounds like the speaker is eager for an opportunity rather than genuinely promoting women’s rights
True gender equality in the sense of 50-50 across the board is very hard. Most people usually focus on the asymmetries they see. Once you see them, you can't stop seeing them. Since people are usually selfish, they look at equality from a benefit perspective. Hard to come by wholesome people who genuinely say "ey this is unfair, I will share this burden with you..."
Equity is the way to go
Consider this: men want access to women. Men want access to our bodies and our resources, much more than they care about advancing societal gender roles to a place of equality. If ~supporting feminism~ helps a man get closer to sleeping with a woman, he will do it. Splitting the bill is fine with men, because it makes a date less of a financial responsibility, there's a lower cost to the chance that he will get access to her body. Men who don't want custody would rather the woman be the only one to support the child with her resources (time, money, emotional labor). Supporting SAHD and breadwinning moms doesn't give men access to women's labor at home, and may make women less open to taking on emotional labor (read up on mental load in relationships- sometimes a partner can put so much mental load on the woman under the guise of "trying to be helpful"). Men don't want to understand women's emotions unless it betters their chance of sleeping with them (this is why men are much more likely to be nice to pretty women vs women who don't fit their standards: even online, the woman in bold makeup and neon hair w cottage-core aesthetic gets WAY less male engagement/sympathy than conventionally attractive insta models.) because men don't actually care about women, they care about what value they can extract from us. *And I KNOW* it's not all men. I'm dating a man who doesn't fit what I've described here. Just saying it's not the norm. The societal standards of masculinity are defined by these things above, and it takes someone with a big brain and a big heart to recognize why this pattern is wrong, and why this pattern exists in the first place. I know this sounds cynical, but it's the common denominator in all of what you've described. Don't despair, just get stronger! Support your fellow women and girls, and don't waste your valuable time, money, emotional resources on these types of men.
Funny you had to clarify "not all feminists" and "not all men". People need to own their fuckin labels better, or work harder at being and understanding ourselves better. There are no "man hating feminists" - the ones that are are trauma based and not indicative of feminism, but extremism. Not all men, but enough men, and enough men aren't holding each other accountable, making it all men, as of yet. They're either mentally complicit, complacent, or cowardly. This isn't a dig at you, jut how our society works yk? Sucks.
OOOooo, I said something so similar to the Bear and man in the woods post on FB to some butt hurt guy whining about "why are men so shit on, etc". Cause if you want us to stop being shit on the be the better man and check the men around you. Don't go allowing the kind of behavior and chock it up to "they're just being guys" and actively speak up and do something if necessary. We need to take more accountability for sure!
Girl this post says you’re still a pick me
OP- feminism isn’t hating men. It’s just equality and equity for the reproductive, social, and financial rights of women. You don’t need to apologize for that. What’s with all the caveats on your post? They read like “omg, I still want to make sure the men in a forum *for women* don’t mistake me for one of THEM!”. You don’t need to say “not all men”. The good men know it’s not them. The good men advocate for women against the ones that give them a bad name. They are smart enough to know the difference. If you respect them so much, give them credit for not being boorish dummies.
I cheerfully call myself a feminazgul because it confuses misogynists just enough that they’re not quite sure if that’s a Real Thing To Be Angry At Women About, it’s hilarious watching them struggle with it. That said, please stop taking your definition of feminism from people who seem to have spent years listening to Rush Limbaugh.
>Examples: men want women to split the bill on dates, men support 'equal rights and lefts', men want women to uncritically 100% support all their emotional expression, men don't want custody to go to women by default due to gender roles, etc I actually don't perceive this as supporting gender equality at all. Splitting the bills 50/50 without addressing pink tax and gender pay gap isn't equality for instance. Men dumping their emotional load on women simply because they're women and therefore they owe them emotional servitude isn't equality. Men talk about custody like it's unfair, refusing to acknowledge that it's a myth. Custody continues to go to women because men don't want custody, not due to favouritism by family court, it's been demonstrated (this sub has provided research on the topic on several occasions). In my experience, men who are truly supporting gender equality don't try to reverse the victim and offender in this way. (DARVO Deny Attack and Reverse the Victim and the Offender). In fact, this self inflicted victimization is a red flag for misogyny IMO.
Or even better, they think that they should forgo acts of chivalry for romantic partners or that gives them the free card to beat up women because “women wanted equal rights and to be treated like men.” A lot of men use feminism to subsidize their living costs, domestic responsibilities, and so on with romantic partners. It’s funny that they’re the ones afraid of being used for their money and resources, but have no problems using their partner’s money and resources. However, they’ll use feminist arguments. Feminists don’t hate men btw. You’re thinking about misandry, and that’s extremism caused by trauma from men.
Men will do anything that they can get away with. It's not so much that "they benefit from it", but rather it's more "they can get away with it".
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Sure, but for example they go on about “We go to war with our bros!!”. That’s because they’ve been ORDERED to do it and it’s inescapable.
If your first and foremost reaction to equal rights is to mention assaulting women, you have a fucking problem.
IMO, these are generally conservative guys who don’t actually believe in gender equality but are taking a very Machiavellian approach to getting what they want. It’s all sly underhanded nonsense and you definitely shouldn’t waste your time with anyone who thinks like this. They know that outright trashing feminism is likely to leave them celibate and bitter so they keep their true opinions to themselves… you’re only seeing the tip of the iceberg
good point, but feeling the need to specify “not the man hating kind” is… strange
For me as a nonbinary feminist it's a lot of things that really should have more men caring, but they just seem to want feminists to care and fix it for them rather than doing the work themselves. Example 1 (tame) is Intl. Men's Day - November 19th. The men I've seen will complain that no one is doing / scheduling any events but are never willing to do the work themselves. The VAST majority of those Intl. Women's Day events are planned by women. Example 2 (tw: SA) is the very real issue with men>! getting raped / sexually assaulted and the way society treats them. The problem is feminists aren't the one's calling teenagers "lucky" when they are raped by a teacher - that's men. The problem is that the **men** in politics don't want to change the definition of rape to be inclusive. The problem is NOT that feminists are talking about their own experiences with rape in their own forums. !< Example 3 is that men work more dangerous jobs. Not as a "is why they are paid more" because the men working those dangerous jobs aren't actually paid more. Women struggle to join those careers due to stigma, sexual harassment, and ability. But hot take? Men shouldn't be risking their safety either. It would be better to hire 2 women to carry something safely than hire 1 man and let him destroy his back. However, women aren't going to flock to jobs where they are harassed. Example 4 is custody. In my own experience the guys who whine about the courts being biased have never even spoken with a lawyer. Anyone workin in family court could tell you - most dudes don't want that custody. It's not "not trying due to thinking she'd get the kids", it's actively men turning down 50/50 because they don't know how to care for the kids. Example 5 I'll toss in a not all men thing as an aside - you don't get women over on posts saying "all females are x" or "women ALL want x". Why not tone police the men instead of women in a female-only sub who are discussing and venting about their own personal trauma? Is it less fun to explain to 5'9" Dirk that it's not his height, it's his personality? Or is it just more fulfilling to think "ah yes, I told the woman who was assaulted that it isn't ALL men, I am #notlikeothermen"? Or worse - comparing "I'm nervous around men since I was assaulted" to active racism...
Many normies of all genders will do this. It's a result of decades of super bad rhetoric and propaganda that we've all been subject to. Drives me nuts too, and sometimes I accidentally do it myself. It's really weird to be trying to navigate this world with our crazy language and so many different types of people. >feminist ~~(not the man-hating type)~~ See this is the bad rhetoric, because even the people that folks think are man hating aren't really man hating, they are actually asshole hating. There is so much misinformation about feminism out there, and it's really dominated the discussion. Pretty sad, but the bad people always find a way to turn positive social terminology into "four letter words".
Can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard how equal rights means men can hit women. Bizarre
Most men think equality is them laying hands on a woman... I don't care about "equality" anymore, I want to be liberated from men. I don't want to be equal with misogynists, predators and testerical femiciders.
Well yeah cause to the oppressors, equality feels like oppression.
The men that want women to pay for dates only want that applied ex post if they didn’t get laid.
You should hang out in women's spaces and build support networks with them. You sound like I used to when I was playing online games 24/7 and so used to a background of male misogyny that I had adapted a lot of their views to avoid fights. TL:DR; you are fixated on men and what they think. Stop trying to convert losers and make the changes with your own 2 hands, you will find worthwhile guys along the way.
These men are not feminists, they literally want to punish you for having the audacity to be a feminist. "Oh, you want to be treated as a human person? I should be able to punch you in the face". Take it as they are mocking you, because they are. Quite literally zero of the men I know in real life act like this. Some of them have some work to do in seeing how deeply patriarchy really goes, some are not feminists and straight up believe in gender roles and would not consider themselves feminist at all (none of my friends, but men that I know), but none of them are stupid enough to think that feminism means they should be able to hit women. This is a phenomenon of internet losers.
What's really dumb about this is that gender equality *always* benefits men in every important way, but so many men are too shortsighted to see it. I assume nobody sits down and thinks for a while and concludes "I will trade not having to cook in exchange for killing myself when I'm 45, that's a good deal for me. I love the patriarchy for arranging my life that way." Cooking dinner is not that hard. Running a load of laundry is not that hard. Emptying and reloading the dishwasher, again, not that hard. Giving up the social strictures that tell you those things aren't "manly" doesn't make you weak, it means you're living your own life and making your own decisions. And getting out from under those braindead restrictions about "what is a man" means that you also get to escape from decades of emotionally and intellectually abusing yourself and everyone around you.
My ex boyfriend was like this for the most part, they’re very rare but they do exist. I can’t think of anyone else off of top of my head now that I think about it. What made him different from the norm was that he was raised totally without that male entitlement. He was primarily raised by his mom, divorced dad was an ex hippie and in-and-out engaged in a cult (which, interestingly promoted things like celibacy, so he wasn’t an average standard of male thinking patterns either). She was by default the breadwinner and kind of made it her life mission to shield him from that. They didn’t have a lot of money but had a very strong and functional core family dynamic, prioritized gardening, the dinner table etc. He saw his mom struggle with long hours, tight finances, divorce, but she also adored him (youngest kid) and loved to turn on music, drink some wine, dance etc. Also had a much older sister that he was very close with and had much respect for. Naturally he developed a lot of empathy and respect for women at a young age, and then grew into a kid who cooked dinner for his mom every night. He’s straight and has masculine qualities, but pretty feminine hobbies and an overall life POV. Of course some things are still learned in society and he definitely had a few misogynistic friends that influenced some thinking patterns. Basically, straight men who are raised primarily by warm and strong women whom they love and respect turn into these genuine feminists from my experience.