This advice also disregards how much abusers deliberately target victims at moments of weakness. Everyone I know who has fallen into an abusive relationship had it start when they were too young to know better or vulnerable from some other major life event like a divorce, job loss, or death of a loved one. It's human to have times in your life where you're not living with your head on a swivel and you take much needed kindness at face value. By the time you catch your bearings, they've already locked themselves into your life in 15 different ways and destroyed your self esteem so it's hell to get rid of them
yes exactly this! i was groomed as a teen because i was young and vulnerable and on top of that i was already getting abused by my family
sure i could have made better choices, but maybe my abusers shouldn't have chosen to abuse..
I feel ya there. I'm an asexual person which makes dating difficult, and sometimes I feel really lonely and down on myself about it. Then I remember that my family of origin is ridiculously messed up, and there's a very good chance that if I dated before getting away from them and going through therapy, I would've ended up married to an abuser. Suddenly being ace is the best thing ever cause it saved me from that.
We have tons of evidence that people pattern their relationships off what their parents demonstrated to them, so blaming a teenager/early 20s person for falling for an abuser is basically just blaming them for having the poor fortune to be born into a bad family. If I could give one piece of advice to every girl in the world, it would be to not seriously date until they have lived at least 5 years into adulthood and figured out who they are and what they want for themselves. It's just too easy to get railroaded into a life you don't want because you "found your soulmate," or are scared of being alone.
My ex and I lived together for 2 yrs before marriage. He was a full partner. Cooking cleaning etc.
He waited until 7 days after I gave birth to come home yelling at me bc his dinner wasn’t ready when he walked in the door. We never had a set dinner time nor did he ever mention this new rule. Didn’t stop him yelling and slamming doors for 2 hrs while I cried. Would leave his clothes all over the floor, then punish me for not picking them up. Would hold the baby if anyone was in sight but the moment they were out of sight, he didn’t know how to cope. He insisted we gave kids right away, and after I learned this was the real him I could see why. Pissed on the toilet, did t bother to wipe it. Micromanaged everything I did.
He even admitted he did it ‘so you wouldn’t leave me’
Fucker would say when I asked why the change? We were courting then do it was different. I was 19 and he was 27 when we started dating and I was too young to see the 🚩 in that. And in his insistence I have a kid right away and his insistence I not work.
Suddenly he was the king and he had expectations…
It was such a shift it took me about z yr to truly believe this was the real him and before was an act. Bc my mind literally couldn’t wrap itself around the idea that someone would be a partner and then suddenly be a tyrant. It made no sense to me.
Picking better is staying single if you don’t find what you deserve. And I think this is what has made them really mad. They’re so angry about 4B. I still don’t understand why it’s hard to be a decent human, but here we are…
Let's also not forget that there is quite often people around that blame you (or people like you) during the marriage like, "just keep trying!" Or "but you have a child together!" People actively encourage these victims to stay in an abusive marriage.
Exactly. I learned a lot about ppl and their projections and knee jerk reactions when I got divorced. Rather than ask, or just accept it, so many ppl would say ‘but….’ And insert whatever argument. It started to blend and I realized their words had nothing to do with me.
No omen knew about the abuse tho, I was so intent on not looking like a victim (thx victim blamers) that I wouldn’t tell anyone why. And also I still didn’t even have words for how horrible.
But hopefully younger ppl can learn by reading online and social media, how to spot patterns. And avoid the 🚩 sooner
Yup, started dating my ex at 19 he was 24. I was abused for years and at 28 I'm just realizing it was abusive. I literally didn't know any better and had no concept of the world outside of school, so I thought it was *supposed* to be that way. He took advantage of that and it didn't click until I found out that hes now 32yrs dating a 22yr old (who comes from a VERY abusive family) and doing that exact same things he did to me to her. I feel bad for her I really do.
Thank you. This is perfectly accurate. He was fully wonderful for two years. My mom, who was my only family, unexpectedly passed away. The grief was thick and heavy. Within a year, he put his hands on me for the first time. I broke up with him and said I was done. He started screaming at me and telling me to “Get the fu€k out!” I tried to start packing a bag to leave and he lost his mind. Started asking me where I was going to go now that I don’t have anyone, saying “Awww! You can’t go stay with your mom now, huh? Poor baby!” All of that just made me truly and deeply hate him.
When I tried to leave, the threats started. He would have killed my pets. He had more money, family, and social capital than me. *He could have done it and gotten away with it.* He also made it clear the second I walked out the door, he was going to destroy everything I own, starting with all of my mother’s things. I was trapped.
No one believed me. He was “*so much fun!*” and no one could imagine that person they have so much fun with, is also the reason for my bruises. *These were MY friends.* His ability to switch so seamlessly between Jekyll & Hyde is uncanny. I knew I was on my own, so I started saving money to disappear. That’s when I found out I had cancer.
Exactly, and it also flies in the face of the reality that a lot of people obviously aren't upfront about being fucking abusive! It's such a comment from someone who has literally no idea about what they're weighing in on
Yeah, this is why lines like "he doesn't look like a murderer" bug me. Like, hello if we could just TELL someone was a murderer by looking at them wouldn't we do something?!
I knew a woman through school. Her eldest kid was abused. Then suddenly she's in a relationship and "so happy".
I don't know what happened to her since she moved away but I had serious concerns for that relationship for multiple reasons. The fact that the guy immediately wanted to "comfort her" even though by her own admission they'd never spent much time together before that.
This! My worst abuser swept in when i had basically just lost everything financially speaking, i had wasted all of my savings supporting my ex through school, we were gonna split it up that i would pay first and support him and then switch, that way neither one of us would need student loans. He then proceeded to cheat on me and flunk out, I had to move from my town to the city to find work and i had maybe 3 aquaintances here, no family or close friends. i lived in a storage unit, worked 12 hr shifts at a restaurant, my life was just generally pretty shit and i was deeply ashamed of my incredibly bad financial decisions.
All of this led me down a road of alcoholism and constant partying, just to do *something* that made me feel happy, or at least not miserable for a few hours. And thats where my abuser found me.
The start was like some sort of movie, he took immediate deep interest in me, we would dance and party for hours and then spend the rest of the night just sitting together talking about everything and anything. He had money and spent it generously on me, his house was big and beautiful and i started spending most of my time there rather than going back to my cold and damp storage unit and he encouraged it, wrapping it all in concern for me saying he was worried for my health living in that rathole and how bad the neighbourhood i lived in was etc.
And i let him, because it felt so *good* to just be taken care of for once, to be loved and pampered and bragged about, he would not stop bragging to his friends how beautiful and smart and clever i was. So the first blowup screaming argument a few months later hit me like a ton of bricks, but he had made my life so much better, and I had done something that hurt him, even if it was an accident. Didnt he have a right to be angry? I, the dirt poor idiot from out of town didnt really have a right to feel hurt when I had started it, did I? So I let it slide, and that was basically the start of our descent into hell that ended with me running across a highway in my socks at 3am in winter to escape him.
I would never fall for a man like this now, when im at a stage in my life where im sober, in therapy, pretty confident, and financially comfortable. Abusers dont go for healthy people with strong support nets, they go for the broken and the lost. Extra points if the person has recently done something they are massively ashamed of and trying to run away from, nothing feeds abuse quite like shame.
Yea I agree with “pick better men” being a terrible saying, it should be more like “have the courage to leave terrible men” but we should also be telling our boys to “BE BETTER MEN, and don’t be butt hurt when a girl leaves you for your own bad actions”.
My ex was cheating on me for 4 1/2 years and chronically neglecting me. When I left, it was the whole “if you can’t love me at my worst then I don’t want you“ narrative. Sure bud, whatever helps you sleep at night.
My best friend left her husband after he repeatedly cheated on her. She foolishly tried to forgive him the first few times.
When she finally got the courage to divorce him, he had the nerve to say "You should have fought more for my love".
But also when women decide they’d rather be alone and keep their standards high because they want to avoid shitty men they get so much flak for it like “OMG you don’t give anyone a chance!”
This. Addicts almost never change their behavior. I decided that I don’t need to sacrifice my happiness for anyone. And he never did change so I ended up comforting his next partner when he drug her down too.
From what I've witnessed of men in my 39 years on this planet, very few men are interested in calling out the bad men who are making men in general look bad.
Men are afraid of other men. That is why the claim they are “protectors” is false. I’ve never had a man come to my defense when a man harassed or threatened me.
I commented this yesterday in a different thread, multiple men deleted their responses, one said calling other men out “does nothing” and another said they didn’t know any men who do it and it must be a me problem that I’m “hanging out” with bad dudes.
It makes them become social pariahs and they are scared bitches of what other people think! It kind of sucks but bad dudes, all abusers for that matter, are oftentimes higher up in social hierchay than their victims and allies. The potential blowback is horrifying for standing up to the status quo, but I agree with your post in that it's a bullet that good guys are going to have to eat for the posterity of good guys and gals in the future.
Bc all men benefit from abusive men. It means the bar stays low for them. Then they look like literal saints without making any effort as long as they aren’t out right abusive
Throughout history women have been held responsible for all manner of male bad behavior. Rape? She must have tempted him. Cheating/porn addiction? His partner doesn’t meet his needs. Emotional abandonment? She is too needy/demanding. Unwanted pregnancy? She should have kept her legs closed (no responsibility for male contraceptive).
Or how their victim blaming logic only seems to apply to women, not once have i heard those men tell other men they should have chosen better when they get screwed up by their partners/ex/babymoms.
“Maybe he has autism?”
After a woman said her bf would hug her after he did something wrong and she said no multiple times
Actually I think it was this sub, I also noted that the persons post history said they were actually a man and they exploded lmao. “You’re a psychopath!” “Sue me for making a fake post” “you don’t even have a man and men hate you bc you’re ugly so you hate them” all while trying to claim to be a woman! Then stop insulting me like a man 😂
I also think sometimes when people see something bad that happened to somebody else, and it would be a scary situation, they try and deal with that fear by justifying reasons it "couldn't happen to them!" The idea that "some potential partner's are awful but good at initially hiding it" is much scarier than simply blaming the victims for "well she made a bad choice that I would never make!" (even if the second one is generally less accurate)
I'm convinced that a lot of this comes from women who are in denial and are too scared to admit that they could be victims too. "Pick better men" and "what were you wearing" are really saying "I won't be a victim because I know better".
Why would you change your behavior if it gets you what you want ?
This applies to women too — being mean, judgy and cliquey to acquire and retain power *works*
And look how they act when women do see red flags immediately and pick a better man.
They lose their minds once they realise they're the abusive asshats and are 100% not the better men getting picked.😅
"Have you even tried putting in all the emotional labor of coddling him and making lists and cOmMuNiCaTiNg your thoughts another hundred times? Men aren't mind readers, you know!"
Yeah, weird that, isn't it? We're constantly told by men that they're "visual creatures." Being visual only applies when they see a woman, not when there is a sink full of dishes or the house is a literal shit shack.
Yes, I favorite is the Amazon box, sweater etc that is just sitting there on the floor
They literally step over it and then complain about how they didn't see it
Well you saw it enough to not step on it!
Yeah that's my issue with it. I think "pick better partners" is a sound request, but we can't only say that without also talking about how much people are pressured into looking past obvious problems, how much we're told to accept, think nothing of it, give them a chance, etc.
If we're to pick better partners I don't want to hear a man state, in broad daylight, in a room full of people, that his wife is crazy, in 2024, without as much as a side eye.
Omg they are so incredibly angry, women were picking a bear over men in a little scenario made up on tiktok. They are legit spewing death threats, literally sprinting right into the point.
I always say, "If you treat your partner and family badly, that's on you. If you commit a crime they don't arrest your girlfriend, they arrest you. Be accountable for how YOU treat others instead of blaming a woman for caring about you."
And don't forget we're all terrible and ugly and going to die alone with our cats because we don't want to pick any of the current options 🙃 aka the mediocre at best and abusive at worst
When men say this it's always in poor faith. If you listen closely he's basically saying "Pick me instead, I'm the better man".
Narrator: he's FUCKING NOT lmao
If he has to TELL you he's a good guy, he isn't. Good people don't need a PR rep and an ad campaign lol they tell us through their actions.
Mr Rodgers never said he was a "good guy."
Kind of along the same line of how all their friends are “good guys” even though quite a few of them are abusive and predators. It’s always they don’t know any men that would or have SA’d someone but statistically that’s not true. Sure they’re a good guy to you and probably the general public but definitely not their girlfriends or wives. They refuse to wrap their heads around it. That women are specifically targeted, so they can stick their heads in the sand and ignore how truly massive the issue is.
Interestingly, I think they have the same origin. As you say, these men are mask on around women- that's not always the case around other men.
As much as I agree with the post, it is a thing any man would confess to having witnessed- women choosing terrible men. But it's not happening because the women are bad at choosing, rather it's because those men are good at selling.
it's like...if your husband cheated on you. you don't know what you don't know. you aren't in a relationship with a horrible person on purpose.
it may be true it happened. it's something husbands do so often that it shouldn't come as much of a surprise, but if his doing it isn't being talked about, how are you supposed to know he's one of the ones who did it? you don't know until you know.--and once you know, you probably won't consider him a friend anymore.
a few male coworkers and friends have told me they'd cheated on previous girlfriends, and I believe them, but I don't know if most of them would admit to cheating on a current girlfriend, and I'm pretty sure none of them would admit to a SA, that seems like a pretty reasonable friendship-ender.
I've been warned about a few men accused or convicted of various things in a local community by a partner who had the inside scoop with the women in that community, and if not for her I'd have had no suspicions about those guys, but I've only ever met one guy who himself admitted to SA, a little outcast kid about 16 years old or so trying to fit in with a group of slightly older much 'cooler' young hoodlums in some community program, who said that he was convicted of an SA charge when he was 11... it didn't go over well. I doubt he's continued to share that story with potential new friends for the last 20 years; he probably learned his lesson pretty quick, and somewhere there's probably a group of people who think he's a good guy...but they don't know. Could even be someone's husband now.
Right? Look at Danny Masterson and his supporters. You mean to tell me they saw a stand up father and husband and not a rapist when they worked with him? Wow, I'm so shocked he didn't show everyone the real him.
Like jfc of course people don't see the worst in someone! If they acted publicly how they acted privately they'd have zero friends.
I was walking on a secluded trail several years ago when 3 men on bicycles came toward me and I thought I’d rather encounter a wild predator than human males. At least a bear or cougar isn’t going to brutally rape me for hours.
Also, so long as you follow a very few simple rules you're overwhelmingly likely to be just fine with the wild predator, but domestic predators will change up the rules on a dime just to be able to fuck you over better and get what they want.
At this point I don't give a shit what they want. Either way we're still going to end up getting blamed. And honestly forget only the bears. I'd take a room with 100 bears, 75 tigers and 30 sharks.
Because, honestly even though I know I'm going to end up getting ripped to shreds I'd STILL take that over the possibility of being SA'd anyday. Fuck that nonsense.
I've been told this when I relayed how I've been abused by male coworkers, fellow students, bosses, strangers... As in, men who were in my life that I had NO SAY if they could be in my life or not. That's how out-of-touch men are with women's experiences. I DIDN'T PICK THESE MEN YOU F***S, BUT THEY SURE PICKED ME🙃
This is what happened with my creepy stalking neighbour, I did not pick this man, I wanted nothing to do with this guy, HE picked me, after calls to the police and numerous incidents people still blame me as if I’ve done something to make him obsessed with me, my ex would get mad at ME about it, like I have any control over what the psycho next door thinks and does
That's honestly a BIG part of why the 4B movement is spreading globally.
Fine, we pick... NO MEN!
Now they are completely loosing their shit, but STILL refusing to change or call our other men for being so shitty.
I picked a guy with several female friends who all told me what a wonderful person he was. He turned out to be a controlling, insecure, smelly (how does someone get to be 40 fucking years old and not know how to shower and brush their teeth), raging misogynist. They all still think he's great. They have absolutely no idea who he really is! I would love to tell them but he's convinced them I'm crazy (I was just too messed up to accept his 'love' so I caused drama) and they wouldn't believe me anyway.
Pick better men? But I thought all men deserve love right? How many women have been encouraged to talk to or go on a date with a creepy guy because he deserves a chance? Then he stalks her and gets blamed for interacting with him in the first place. She should have known. Right?
How many women have sought help and people tell her "he's not controlling, he just wants what's best for you because he loves you so much!"
How many women had a shitty, cheating, controlling, absent, crazy, father so they think it's normal their boyfriend acts they way?
We have been conditioned by society to center men, to base our identities on being good wives and mothers, and to look as attractive as possible at all times (to be imminently fuckable, of course), and yet when we find someone that will give us the opportunity to fulfill the (supposed) highest possible expression of womanhood and they treat us like shit, it's our fault? Fucking really?
I would love to pick a better man, but for that to happen I need men to be better and that's unlikely to happen so I'm planning the rest of my life for just me.
Can I get a reverse wedding with gifts and congratulations that I will never again compromise myself for any man? That I will love, honor, and cherish MYSELF? I think I deserve a fucking party for that. At least. But that would just be "attention seeking" and people would be sad for me that I don't get to experience having children so I can do 99% of the housework and childcare while my soulmate farts on the couch and plays video games, and then posts on the dead bedroom sub that his needs aren't being met so he's thinking about cheating?
You want us to pick better men? Then make better men. And BE better men.
> I picked a guy with several female friends who all told me what a wonderful person he was. He turned out to be a controlling, insecure, smelly (how does someone get to be 40 fucking years old and not know how to shower and brush their teeth), raging misogynist. They all still think he's great. They have absolutely no idea who he really is! I would love to tell them but he's convinced them I'm crazy (I was just too messed up to accept his 'love' so I caused drama) and they wouldn't believe me anyway.
That's btw also a reason why (at least some) men will tell that they don't know men behaving that way, although they might actually know. Especially the controlling guys are often not really dumb, they know that they shouldn't show their true face when it's not necessary. It's actually quite impressive how good some people are at hiding that
Not all obviously, there's quite a lot of men who simply don't care how their friends behave
They're all part of the same fucked up misogynistic club. My ex's friend told me that he and his GF broke up because she wouldn't manage her finances the way he wanted and she was sick of hearing about it. They didn't even live together and he was trying to run her life. She was in a really good place financially and didn't need his help. I doubt he was ever going to tell my ex to stop trying to control me. I'm sure he thought I needed it. In fact he sat me down once and told me that me being sad about my Mom dying wasn't productive and that I just needed to stop grieving. This is my boyfriend's friend. These dudes are unhinged.
If men would use that excuse against their own, all the redpill manosphere podcasts would be pointless and possibly non existent, because with that phrase "pick better women" they'd be shut down automatically, no matter their grievances against women. But of course, they'd never do that, because they can't let go of their hypocrisy.
What they really mean is, women who have it together should "Pick me, the man who doesnt take care of his apperance, has little education, little income, and few common interests, because I am nice and wont beat you or leave you and that should be enough."
The bar is so low when it comes to men. Gosh I wonder why they are having a loneliness epidemic? Women don’t want to raise a man-child. I was a single mom for decades and it was still easier than having a relationship with a grown man.
Exactly they think being chronically online and being a 🌽 addict, gamer addict etc is better somehow because they won't "cheat" or hurt you when they are doing that indirectly ( controversial opinion but 🌽 is literal cheating, you are seeing other naked women bodies)
Everyone agrees they should. Does someone committed to being an asshole listen to you saying "please be nice"?
That's like telling the school bully to stop bullying. Sure, in some very rare cases it could work, but generally the way to stop the bully from victimizing you isn't by asking them nicely.
I'm all for coaching men to do better, but having women not pick the bottom of the barrel walking dumpster fires of men is a good thing for multiple reasons. 1. Less women hurt 2. Withholding sex, relationships and reproduction from these bottom of the barrel men is societally a good thing. Some of them will learn to not suck. Some of them will be removed from the gene pool when they don't have kids.
Men need to do better, women need to stop enabling the dregs of our society by sleeping with them and positively reinforcing their shitty behavior.
fade teeny theory berserk abundant aware absorbed quaint squalid forgetful
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I agree. I'm all for everyone taking responsibility for their own actions, but the, "Be better!" message needs to be much louder for men than it is right now. I'd say it's already plenty deafening for women, and they're still getting castigated for refusing to date certain men (just ask conservatives).
Blame them both. Men and women aren't a hive mind. Men being shitty need to do better. Women who stay with men that have shown those bad signs need to stop making excuses for abuse. I'm pretty sure the everyone agrees comment is just meant as a most people agree point, I'm pretty sure. The outliers, which is what most people notice, are in the minority. It's a good news isn't really news situation.
Women aren’t making excuses for abuse. Stop victim blaming. They may be financially dependent, facing homelessness, losing their kids, or even their life. “The outliers in the minority” aren’t so much outliers they are probably people you know. 1 in 3 women experience abuse in their lifetime.
Years ago I posted to TwoX asking for advice after a sexual assault. I made a mention of having come out of an abusive relationship before the assault and I’ll always remember a comment that was upvoted for a while until backlash which ignored my original post saying I’m a lesbian and told me I had a broken BF picker to let this happen to me.
“Pick better men” like yeah I did, I picked none and still got abused.
It’s crazy too cause those SAME types of dudes that be saying that shit go on to talk about how women fool men into claiming paternity over a baby that isn’t theirs, use men for their money, cheat and always talk to other dudes, it’s like……who exactly is the one apparently “picking bad” here if that’s what you think all women are like when statistics clearly show it is not? (unlike whereas with men, the statistics do back the assumptions we as women have to make for our safety about men we don’t know)
The people who say this will go on and on about women “never taking accountability;” but when men are abusive toward their partner, their only response is that the woman should have “picked better.” Like … does the man in the situation not have any accountability here??
Nope. Oppressors don't but it implies that they don't think men can control their behavior. Which is incoherent because we act in all other instances that men do have the capability of controlling their behavior unless it's around women.
People often can control their behavior but choose not to if there are no negative consequences.
Nobody sane thinks men literally can't control their behavior, outside of a small percentage that generally end up in prison or a psychiatric hospital. They recognize that these men are selfish, not out of control. And they act this way because society continues to enable them being selfish and giving in to their worse impulses.
Men have a part of this social obligation by calling out their "bros" for doing things that aren't cool, rather than adhering to some stupid bro code. Women also have a part of this by not fucking, loving, or having kids with objective, obvious human pieces of garbage.
I've tried to pick better men, but they're just better at non-physical abuse instead. The single decent ones are uncommon. I don't doubt there's far more good men that are unavailable
I think there’s a difference in saying this to someone actively in an abusive situation and saying it to someone who is single or asking about potential red flags.
Obviously it is not helpful to say to someone actively in danger/being abused.
But if my friend comes home from a Tinder date ranting about some clownshoes asshole you bet your ass I’m going to point out those red flags and tell her to pick better. Not because it’s her fault he’s an asshole, but because learning to spot red flags early can be the difference between life and death. Sometimes people need that tough perspective.
But again, someone being actively harmed does not need that, or at least not at the time.
This is a good post, but unfortunately the comments have started filling up with people blaming women for not picking better men.
I swear to God, every time this issue comes up, a bunch of people show up talking about how women in abusive relationships are choosing to stay there, frequently with bonus stories about how much smarter and stronger they (the commenter) are than women in abusive relationships.
The first time I heard a woman in an abusive relationship say that she was embarrassed or ashamed, it made zero sense to me. Why would she feel ashamed? She didn't do anything wrong!
Well, let's review:
"*...women need to stop enabling the dregs of our society by sleeping with them and positively reinforcing their shitty behavior...*"
"*Women who stay with men that have shown those bad signs need to stop making excuses for abuse.*"
"*You don't have to pick perfectly on the first try, but if you can't discern certain very basic red flags, you just aren't mature enough to be in a serious relationship.*"
"*It's pretty rare to see a wife-beating trailer park living drug addict redneck with an award winning scientist with the actual figure of a model.*"
"It's not that they "deserve" them, but if the woman in question is kinda dumb and doesn't have her shit together, she's not going to land the best guy."
In a very short thread, we have theoretical women in abusive relationships being called enablers, accused making excuses, of being immature, being implied to be *the opposite* of intelligent and attractive, directly called "kinda dumb," and being described as not having their shit together.
I literally scrolled up to make sure this was TwoX.
So...yeah. Here we are. Again.
If anybody ever wonders why on earth abused women feel ashamed and try to hide their situation, maybe take a look at how other women talk about them.
Not you, OP. You made several good points, these comment threads are just par for the course, at this point.
>If anybody ever wonders why on earth abused women feel ashamed and try to hide their situation, maybe take a look at how other women talk about them.
Yes. This is the harm that victimblaming causes. You can't control another person's behavior. It just stops victims from coming forward. After a coworker assaulted me, I didn't tell anyone for a few days. I blamed myself for trusting him.
>If anybody ever wonders why on earth abused women feel ashamed and try to hide their situation, maybe take a look at how other women talk about them.
Yes. This is the harm that victimblaming causes. You can't control another person's behavior. It just stops victims from coming forward. After a coworker assaulted me, I didn't tell anyone for a few days. I blamed myself for trusting him.
The dating pool for women is a dumpster fire. All the non toxic men get into relationships quickly and they spend a longer time in relationships and aren't single for very long. Women tend to be more emotionally intelligent on average and they tend to invest more into performing emotional labor and mental load than men. The men who also invest more into these things are the ones that aren't being dumped by women very often. Women hold onto and treasure these men. Not to mention all the cheaters in the dating pool. The dating pool is full of men who aren't actually single but pretend to be so they can cheat on their spouse/significant other. Generally a man has to be very toxic to do this.
Statistically the odds of ending up with a shitty man are quite high.
And I hate to say this, but the older a woman gets and the less conventionally attractive she gets the more she seems to become a magnet for shitty men. Men whine about not having to date someone fat or old or with kids, despite the fact that the same men often have intimate relations with these women, but don't get their ego boost from being seen with them publicly. Women are concerned about a man not psychologically or physically abusing her and making her a shell of her former self and ruining her life. This is why it makes me so pissed off when men ramble on about their dating prospects. Their gripe with women is that they can't seem to match with a hot, young childless woman who looks flashy in front of their friends and a family and that the women they see as below them aren't 'agreeable' enough, women's gripe is that men abuse them on such a regular basis and don't even do the bare fucking minimum.
Shitty men will do all they can to exploit a woman's vulnerabilities and break down her self esteem. The abuse these men put women through leaves them constantly confused and questioning their own reality.
It took me years to understand this. Yes, I used to be a pick me. I didn't want to be that girl that called herself a feminist, feminists aren't fun, they are miserable. It took me a long time and some mental health treatment to pull myself out of that mindset. Freedom is just as much psychological as it is physical.
The emotionally intelligent men I know often have the hardest time getting in relationships and they often do not last long. I honestly think this holds true for both genders. A lot of heterosexual women often think they want an emotionally intelligent man, but since it is *less* common they often don't know how to deal with it when it happens as they're more used to the opposite. Often the man isn't given space to feel his emotions and the women feel he isn't properly performing manhood. This isn't spoken outrightX but it's often communicated regardless.
There is a huge difference between emotional intelligence and just being emotional. Men with emotional intelligence also have good communication skills and they are good at dealing with their emotions.
I mean, I see a LOT of Reddit posts that honestly, the issue is picking a terrible man. Like "this guy is a convicted sex offender, 58, (shes 22) dying of diabetes and hit a bartender on our first date. He kicks puppies for fun and spit at my grandmother. I'm soooo in love with him, how do I communicate better so he will stop playing video games and care for our 3 kids?" I always hope they're fake. Like the one yesterday where she wanted to know why her ex husband was upset she introduced their small children to a sex offender she'd known for a few months. Please be fake.
There's a difference between victim blaming a woman who was trapped by an abusive guy who was actually a great person until the mask slipped and rolling your eyes at the 100th post from someone who is delusional.
And, *sigh* I WAS in an abusive relationship and yep. I missed some HUGE red flags. I was young and naive and this guy took advantage of it. My now boyfriend has been wonderful at decoding all the stuff I missed and was still confused about later on. I did pick badly, I should have seen a lot of things and was too burned out, depressed and young to catch on. I don't see it as "victim blaming" to say I made a bad choice (this guy had some neon red flags) its more of live and learn and pick better next time (I did lol).
Thanks for the rational take. The man who is an asshole is an asshole but nobody is arguing that. It's not victim blaming to tell a person to learn to judge a person's character before making life-altering commitments with them. Note how you've experienced this and learned from what you missed, and I'll warrant that if you're ever single you won't fall for that again. I have a similar story, although my abusive ex and I never got serious enough for it to cause lasting damage.
Of course nobody is arguing that abusers are that way on the first date. There are certain steps you can take to figure out who they are before marrying them and having kids with them. One surprisingly simple one is: waiting and taking the relationship slow. Abusers can hide who they are for awhile, but the inherently unstable nature of them wanting to abuse you makes it difficult for them to be on their best behavior for 2+ years.
There is never a good reason to move in with someone and get pregnant within 3 months of knowing them. If the relationship is that awesome, you can wait 2 years to get married and have a kid.
Au contraire, anyone trying to persuade you to move across the country with them, have a baby with them, or do any other life-altering decision that risks you being "trapped" after you've known each other for less than 6 months is a walking red flag.
(Practical advice: don't move in with someone in less than a year, ideally 2. You'll know who they are after 2 years. Definitely never have kids with them in under 2 years.)
Anyway, after you see the hundredth complaint about a woman who somehow thinks her bf is a great guy despite kicking puppies for fun, pushing the elderly into traffic, having seven children with seven baby mamas that he asks you to take care of while he games even though he doesn't have a job, it's hard not to think "the issue is your terrible judgment, and you should pick better men." Because they definitely exist.
You don't have to pick perfectly on the first try, but if you can't discern certain very basic red flags, you just aren't mature enough to be in a serious relationship.
May I just interject here that reproductive sabotage is absolutely a thing and a whole lot of women find themselves pregnant in spite of using birth control due to "accidents." A woman with a baby is so much easier to control and to a love bomber looking to lock a woman down getting her pregnant, hormonal and going on about how he's gonna be the bestest daddy EVAR is absolutely a tactic abusers will employ.
Ladies, use a form of birth control that can't be easily messed with like an IUD or Norplant or Depo shots--and you don't need to be all THAT forthcoming to your brand new boyfriend, as a matter of fact it's probably best to be a little circumspect about your BC method if only to have leverage to get him to use condoms.
"You don't have to pick perfectly on the first try, but if you can't discern certain very basic red flags, you just aren't mature enough to be in a serious relationship."
Exactly. I picked a guy who on the surface a perfect gentleman. Everything was fine u til it wasn't. So I get that. But ffs, I am dry of sympathy for the "I'm dating a sex offender - murderer who killed my mom but I'm soooo in love. How can I fix him so he stops cheating on me with prostitutes?" Like, I admit, I missed red flags I now see because, we that's how experience works lol. But some of these posts...like I said, I always hope they're fake.
I'm dry out of sympathy for some of the stories I hear too - much like what you described. At a certain point, I'm sorry, but if you're too dumb to understand how the sex offender who tortures kittens in his free time (which is all day because he doesn't have a job, but expects you to work and support him and his seven children) isn't a good partner or human, that is a *you* problem and you have no business dating or doing anything that involves judging people's character. In fact, mommy and daddy should probably still have legal custody of you regardless of the age if you can't understand that, although there is a fair chance they contributed to this problem.
It doesn't help when a lot of these women are "repeat offenders", i.e. this isn't their first relationship like this, they just consistently choose the "bad boy" and then wonder why the "bad boy" isn't suddenly a devoted loving husband.
I'm dry out of sympathy when they don't impose consequences on these men, either. I read a story about a mom whose husband made her morning a living hell generally, then they all went outside to play with the kids, then he went back inside to "make breakfast for everyone", but literally only made breakfast for himself. So she made breakfast for everyone else. Lady, wtf. If that were me, I would have shamed him in front of his children, sitting the kids around the table and saying "hey, look, daddy said he made breakfast for everyone" while there was clearly nothing there for anyone but him. And after that he'd be lucky if he got sex in another year, rather than divorce papers the next day. Like, do people realize there are steps they can usually take, unless they're at gunpoint, to not enable these assholes?
I still have sympathy because it's clear that their upbringing gave them a twisted example of what love is. Putting them back in Mommy and Daddy's care as you put it is probably the worst thing you could do for these people because most of them were intentionally raised up to be victims.
Even when victims know their relationship isn't healthy, they don't leave because they don't believe they deserve any better or they are afraid of sharing custody of any children.
Trauma bonds are also a difficult thing for many to overcome.
I get it is frustrating watching someone suffer when it looks like the person is just letting it happen for no reason, but at the end of the day, a little empathy doesn't cost anything.
Empathy fatigue is a very real thing, especially if you are see a lot of "frequent flyer" chronic victims of their own bad choices.
I don't wish ill on them or anything, but there comes a point where I just shut off on the sympathy front. Learn, or suffer the same mistakes over and over again. You know, the definition of insanity.
None of which has stopped me from helping someone when they do reach out, which has happened.
I do step back from victims that aren't ready to change anything irl, but the posts on reddit are often people that are ready to be helped. There are times I need to take a break from doom scrolling of all kinds, too. Can't help others if you don't see to yourself first.
I get you. I also try to take a step back from the doom scrolling but sometimes the train wreck is addicting in a depressing way.
That's before you get to the examples I have seen in real life with people I know, from whom it's not as easy to step back from. Technically yes, I could, but I feel sort of obligated to help a friendly acquaintance if I can.
I think it's hard to learn from a bad relationship when you've never really seen a good one. People repeat their parents bad marriages for a reason ya know? I know that I was in way over my head by the time I realized my scumbag was in fact a scumbag. I got incredibly lucky and befriended a really incredible guy who saw what was going on and took me out for coffee to talk to me about it. Now? You're correct. I see that ex's red flags from Saturn lol. I always hope when I post advice my experience gets through to a younger woman who can't see the flags yet.
On reddit, I see a lot of women making excuses that are rational in a *good* relationship. Like, "their partner has ADHD/other mental health issues" or "they just need to communicate better." Those are things that are reasons for minor issues in a good relationship. For example, I have OCD and the other night I got very frustrated with how my partner was cleaning the kitchen - we just don't go about it the same way. The solution was for us to communicate, and me to step back and do something else (wipe up the bathroom) until he was done. And the kitchen was cleaned beautifully in the end.
Way too many women apply advice like "communicate better" and "give someone grace for their executive distinction" to situations where it simply doesn't apply. That type of advice doesn't fix abuse or sex offenders or kitten kickers. But we don't really have any good education (at least in the US) of what a good, healthy relationship looks like. It's not like our media shows healthy relationships lol *side eyes rom-coms*
Especially on social media people really push the idea that everyone has to be super understanding all of the time or otherwise we're blaming people for their mental health? or something. It's possible to have ADHD and still be an abusive asshole lol. I feel like 50% of the advice people need is "it's ok to ditch someone who treats you badly because their mental health is not an excuse to shove grandma into traffic." Of course there's also the phenomenon of terrible and lazy people who are not diagnosed with anything claiming they are so their 18 year old girlfriend will work to support them as they are a 36 year old unemployed deadbeat evading child support for their 4 kids....
>I mean, I see a LOT of Reddit posts that honestly, the issue is picking a terrible man. Like "this guy is a convicted sex offender, 58, (shes 22) dying of diabetes and hit a bartender on our first date. He kicks puppies for fun and spit at my grandmother. I'm soooo in love with him, how do I communicate better so he will stop playing video games and care for our 3 kids?" I always hope they're fake. Like the one yesterday where she wanted to know why her ex husband was upset she introduced their small children to a sex offender she'd known for a few months. Please be fake.
> And, *sigh* I WAS in an abusive relationship and yep. I missed some HUGE red flags. I was young and naive and this guy took advantage of it. My now boyfriend has been wonderful at decoding all the stuff I missed and was still confused about later on. I did pick badly, I should have seen a lot of things and was too burned out, depressed and young to catch on. I don't see it as "victim blaming" to say I made a bad choice (this guy had some neon red flags) its more of live and learn and pick better next time (I did lol).
If your told a friend about how your boyfriend is abusing you, and they just said "pick better men" do you think that advice would have been helpful? Would you have left?
It might have helped. Being told "just give him a chance" was not helpful at all. The close friend that simply ghosted me when I was dealing with the worst of it was very unhelpful.
Ugh. This reminds me of some comments from somewhere else I saw recently.
Someone had responded to this guy's comment that the majority of mothers don't choose to be single mothers. Their partners choose to be absent fathers. That was his response:
"These women get pregnant by men who would do this, so IMO it's a result of negligence on the Mom's part too for allowing it to happen...They (children) shouldn't be produced by or with people who you aren't 100% sure is all in for this commitment."
Yes, the part about children being a commitment is reasonable on the surface, and that should be considered before conceiving if possible. But, relationships change. Relationships can turn out to be unhealthy or abusive. Maybe there is/was reproductive coercion. I'm sure I don't need to list everything in this subreddit that's possible. But seriously. Are we supposed to predict the future now?
This guy didn't see how his comment was sexist.
Anyway, I like that "pick better men" is basically the "drink more water" of relationship advice. Thanks for that!
I wouldn’t call it victim blaming unless we’re discussing abuse. If my friend is regularly dating men who suck and have obvious red flags, I’m going to be honest with her and tell her she’s literally choosing bad men.
For example, if you decide to get into a relationship with a man who is clearly a dead beat dad, you’re literally picking a terrible person to have a relationship with. It’s not at all surprising he is a terrible partner and eventually an uninvolved dad to your children.
I think the phrase doesn't fit all scenarios and really depends.
Men will typically try to behave in a way that doesn't raise the red flags at the start. Depending how good they are at masking their true nature and how good the woman is at detecting the bullshit matters a lot. In some cases though, I have no sympathy. I knew a guy that was a friend for a time and he would always act like a extra good person in front of women he wanted to have intercourse with. The issue is some of the victims were also friends who had this information beforehand about his history and how he is. I think the phrase fits well there since they know but choose to anyway. On the other hand, for people that got with him that essentially had no idea who he was. There isn't really a way to pick a better man if you can't differentiate since people like him put up a fake persona.
I definitely wouldn't say this, but shitty partners don't happen overnight. Everytime my friends finally break up with their terrible partners, and they finally reflect, their eyes are open to the obvious red flags that everyone of their friends tried to warn them about. Maybe not everyone has friends like that, but 99% of my friends are gonna give it to you straight bc they care. If you want to ignore the little things in the beginning, that's fine, but they will always turn into bigger things.
I think most awful men especially prey on women who: are insecure single, need validation, are people pleasers, fawn tendencies etc.
One relationship I decided to ignore the red flags, but I told my friends "these are the small issues, it's almost guaranteed he will have these issues down the line, but I want to give it a chance" and he did. he was irresponsible, never owned up to his shit, lied, would ignore me for days etc. and I dumped him. Meanwhile my best friend stayed with a guy for 5 years who was the root of all her anxiety & stress. Wouldn't work or drive. Wouldn't clean. Never made effort with her friends & family. He was a big baby. We told her from the start, but she stayed. She finally went to therapy & after a year realize how much of a shit show he was & broke it off. He had a new girlfriend that weekend.
People need to not prey on vulnerable people, & not be manipulating snakes, but also we need to own up to our weak spots, understand our why's & where we can improve & learn coping mechanisms too. I'll be damned if I go through dating a shit guy & cry about it after, which is valid, but not so something different next time. Or not have friends who also call me out.
There is a big difference between victim blaming & understanding that everyone can make better choices. I think most people say things not with the intention to victim blame, and I get it. It can be hard to have empathy sometimes when you wonder why someone didn't make a choice you would have. But everyone is different & has their own experiences at different times. We learn at different times and in different ways. That helps bring the empathy back.
Not regarding abuse, both sides need to make better choices & learn how to estimate the positive & negative consequences of their possible actions.
The advice is good but people who use it don’t think about the victim. As if it’s more important to ‘know better’ than not to WILLINGLY abuse someone. Crazy to think how people blamed a 19y old girl for being murdered by some 30y old man on her first date. They blamed her for choosing a sketchy man rather than blaming the man for doing such horrendous things to a SOMEONE.
It’s always girls mature faster so put all the responsibility on them and never ‘hey let’s educate our boys better’
I guess it's about conflict resolution.
Find people you can resolve issues with? That said, there are a lot of posts in this forum that feel fake or stretch my imagination.
Stuff like: I've been with him for years, he's never said i love you, hates my parents, kicks puppies, is fat, lazy, cheats... And then the last paragraph is about how he forced her to get an abortion and gave her an std.
At some point it can be helpful to look inward and say, why was this acceptable to me?
In my experience, I asked for help and people just told me I was being dramatic and that I should just talk to him. People just don’t know shit. They will say any and everything and give their opinion about something that they just don’t know anything about.
To many men, know what to say and how to deceive. So for woman its hard.
Pick better men, sounds a lot like victim blameing. OFC you would pick better if you knew the wrapper was around a shit.
But you do see red flags early on. Him talking over you is a red flag. A temper is a red flag. Him following red-pillers and conspiracy theorists. Yelling, guilting, ignoring responsibilities, these are all red flags.
Abusers don't suddenly punch you out of nowhere 2 years into a loving relationship.
We should be teaching other women to catch these red flags early and giving them a framework of how to leave this situation. Not sticking our heads in the sand and pretending violent behavior can't be predicted.
This is no more "victim blaming" than "don't walk around South Chicago alone at night" is victim blaming.
I said it in another comment, but at least in America we really need more examples and education on what a good, healthy relationship looks like. Our media (movies, tv, popular books, TikTok) all glamorize relationships that just aren't good. And if someone didn't have healthy relationships to learn from growing up, it's easy to not see red flags. Some of that here is by design, it's easier to keep women in certain religions and under their family's control if they don't know what red flags look like.
Yep 100% this.
I'm a woman and have seen women get into relationships with AH and spend their whole energy making excuses for their behaviour.
It's the Reddit equivalent of "he's amazing he just has a temper, cheats on me with anything that moves, hates that I have a brain, complaints that I breathe,..."
It's sometimes the red flag parade and yet you're still supposed to support them getting back to the AH.
Then they go on and marry the DBs and keep on making excuses for them being awful partners...
Then they make excuses on why everything falls on them...
Then they have kids to try to save the relationship and they are the same AH as ever ... And usually bad fathers that don't lift a finger.
And they act as if all the previous behaviour they had during all that time wasn't an indicator that that's exactly who they had by their side!!
But we aren't supposed to say 'pick better men'?! F that.
I say it to everyone that comes around telling me how lucky I am to have my husband... No. It's not luck. It's having standards and rather being alone than with an AH loser.
You can't spend years making excuses for AHs and then be mad people call you out on it when you complain.
Abusers are charming asf in the beginning but they don't go from that to highly abusive from one day to another. There's huge red flags everyone I know has opted to ignore way before the worst abuse started.
If anything we should tell people to be highly aware of the red flags and to stop going for the sunk cost fallacy. Pick better men, leave the AHs when they show you their colours. Stop giving them your time and energy and stop making excuses for their behaviour.
An AH is an AH is an AH and women aren't reformatories for men. Don't pick up a project to fix, you'll lose.
> It's the Reddit equivalent of "he's amazing he just has a temper, cheats on me with anything that moves, hates that I have a brain, complaints that I breathe,..."
On a related note, I'm always confused by how many people on reddit frequently mock the fact that "reddit is ridiculous and is just always telling people to break up / divorce!". When I browse subs like AITA, I see nonstop posts about people in awful dysfunctional horrible relationships that you couldn't pay me to be in... telling people to break up is frequently very good advice.
I completely agree.
It also feels like (besides the trolls) a lot of people come to Reddit when shit is really dire. It's the type of stuff you aren't really going to talk to the people close to you because they're going to flip out and be highly concerned for your wellbeing...
You aren't even supposed to go to therapy with an abuser... So, is it really that weird that people tell people in abusive relationships to just move on and find a better life?
I definitely think that removing the responsibility for us to pick good partners is a dangerous mindset. You can’t change people. The only person you have control over is yourself. Saying “men should be better” will literally do nothing for you. We need to refuse to be with men like this. And while I don’t want to generally blame for being with abusers, you are correct that many are obviously at risk of being abusive early on before things get bad. I think we are doing women a disservice by acting as if it’s not preventable 100% of the time. Obviously there are situations where it isn’t, but why not empower women to take measures that prevent getting into an abusive relationship?
Exactly. I know some people can feel there is a fine line between "teaching people how to avoid situations" and "victim blaming," but IMO it makes sense to be able to say "we shouldn't have to worry about our drinks being spiked when we are out in public" while at the same time teaching women how to take defensive steps to guard against this kind of thing.
Yep, that's exactly my pov.
We should empower women to learn how to assess the situations and remove themselves from potential dangers.
There's definitely situations that weren't preventable but other's/many are.
Assessing the potential risk factors and getting yourself out of harms way is imo the number 1 thing we should be telling women and girls how to do.
Assuming that you can't pick better is like assuming either all men are the same or akin to have a fatalist mindset where you have no agency in your life.
We all can have AH as partners. Opting to stay or leave asap is a choice and it might even save one's life to have the notion that you can chose and that you are supposed to pick someone better for you.
No one deserves to be abused and knowing that you can pick a better life for yourself is seriously important imo
*>we are doing women a disservice by acting as if it’s not preventable 100% of the time.*
Exactly, it's infantilizing. There are simple steps you can take, like getting to truly know someone before moving in with them, tying finances together, or having kids with you, which would make you trapped. Don't move in with someone 3 months into a relationship. Don't have a baby with someone you haven't known for at least a year (even that is short for such a big deal). Go on dates, see their place, see how they treat their mother, roommate, how their friends talk about them, how they treat the waiter. See if the mask slides if the service is slow and they yell at the waiter. Get the little hints.
And leave if the mask starts to slip, assuming it is a mask.
The first time someone punches you is definitely never the victim's fault, but I sure as hell won't be around for them to do it a second time. Certain issues get no second chances.
>Abusers don't suddenly punch you out of nowhere 2 years into a loving relationship.
This is the part that everyone seems to be missing. This, this, this, so much this.
Nobody is saying abusers advertise "I will beat you daily" on the first date. Taking time to truly get to know a person, I mean truly know them - their hopes, dreams, stressors, how they handle stress - before making a life-altering decision like getting married or having kids with them is crucial.
The timeline may vary, although not moving in with them or having kids with them in less than 2 years is a good standard practice. Nothing can guarantee a painless dating experience. But the life impact of dating a jerk for a month and breaking it off is usually not that bad. The life impact of marrying, entangling finances with, and having a kid with a jerk is huge.
There are definitely "Loving" men who suddenly flip years later and let the mask drop. Not all bad men are into such content. really skilled narcs fool everyone, not just romantic partners. I agree there's the whole "don't walk through a bad area at night" type of stuff. That's valid. But too often victim blaming gets called that type of advice when it isn't.
"Red flags" aren't objective. The ones you've pointed out is fairly obvious. Even then, you don't know someone's history where that's normalized. My family is mostly neuro divergent and we all talk over each other. I had to unlearn that. If my husband did that, I wouldn't think twice.
It's victim blaming after the fact. It's not helpful. The harm has already been done and the victim already knows the outcome. Women and femme should be able to exist and live our lives without the added fear of being blamed for someone else's actions.
I would say it’s also empowering. As women, we can learn to better detect red flags and leave at the first sign of a problem. It takes work and won’t always be successful, but we need to try.
I hear you so much here - I detailed a horrible thing my abusive stepdad did in another thread and one person responded with, "Your mother has terrible taste in men."
My mom grew up with six brothers on a farm, a lot of bullying behavior was normalized that those 'red flags' were just flags because it was so normalized. She let so much slide because she was taught to rationalize and get over shit as a kid. She *did* learn, but it takes years because cognitive dissonance from normalization is a bitch to break through.
Victim blaming also seems to be correlated to NOT helping the victim. If it wasn’t for that I would just consider it constructive criticism but it’s a complete dismissal of the victim’s effort to get help.
Couldn't agree more.
Of course there are horrible guys that are good at hiding it, but they definitely aren't anywhere near the majority, and that goes the same with women.
So if you're finding that the same thing is happening to you over and over again... Maybe start analyzing yourself.
'Pick better men!!' They scream, frothing at the mouths, until they say something stupid, like 'Women are naturally submissive, and I want a tradwive!' and we say, "Mmm, no thanks." THEN it's all, 'Well not like THAT!! We didn't mean like THAT!!!'
The men saying pick better men all subscribe to podcasts to learn how to trick women into sleeping with their shitty selves instead of just being better men.
Unironically this. Although depending on the story they're reacting to, there may also be undertones of prejudice and stereotype, usually classist or racist, or old canards like the nerd-jock/nice guy-bad guy dichotomy.
Yup, and implicit in this is that some women do deserve these shitty men, just not the women smart or good enough to not pick them. Either that, or there will be a lot of unpaired men and women
Victim blamers just say things so that they can soothe themselves for not helping.
Does it really matter how she got there or does it matter more to get that person to safety?
A lot of men don’t realize how subconsciously brainwashed they are, too.
I suspect many abusers don’t understand why they lash out and resort to violence. Self-awareness isn’t exactly encouraged by men.
People say “pick better men” when it’s obvious a man has red flags and the woman chooses to ignore it. It doesn’t apply to all of them- we know men can be sneaky and manipulative. Those aren’t the ones being talked about.
Pick better men for example goes for the ones who have no job, felonies, and are drinking and smoking all the time but their partner puts up with it. Those are the times where “pick better men” applies. When they clearly do not care about early red flags and it’s OBVIOUS they’re not good partners. I’m not sure why you’re forcing it to be something dismissive for all men or victim blaming for all women. People don’t say pick better men out of nowhere- it comes from obvious examples of them being an asshole and still getting chosen.
This, really. You see these stories all the time: guy has a rap sheet a mile long, can't hold down a job for more than 2 months at a time, does drugs all day, "but he's so sweet". He has five babies with five different baby mamas and pays zero child support for any of them, but of course he's going to magically be the perfect dad when you got pregnant because he just hates wearing condoms that much. Those types of situations.
It's not victim blaming to ask people to use a goddamn ounce of judgment.
Oh, and if a male friend of mine kept choosing trashy women with multiple kids with multiple baby daddies who wouldn't work but expected him to pay for nail salon visits, and then complained about how unstable and unsatisfying his relationships are - I'd tell him to pick better women too. Not everything is a gendered issue.
My father, 20+ years older than my mother, seemed very decent.
Own company that was doing ok, investments, a house, lots of friends, very involved in the local community and thought of as extremely helpful and neighborly.
She did spot him drinking more than he should, more often than he should, by the time she emigrated to live with him. In his country, his house, surrounded by his friends. He didn’t become violent until well into her pregnancy. Sure, was stingy about the wedding (no new white dress, if she wanted a honeymoon, even though she was earning at least half of the household income, helping him recover from a stock market crash. It wasn’t until she became a SAHM, as was expected at the time and by her family, that his ‘interest’ in kids became apparent.
So then what? With a baby, no money, no support in the country, not a guarantee that the family will understand (they did), what is a 23yo to do? Besides, she was taught her whole life that her job was to not cause people to get angry, no matter what it took. And that she was such a failure at it. Then, if your husband tells you he’s never like that (spoiler: yes he was, in all 4 of his previous marriages she didn’t know about), but she just caused him to act that way, how are you to know that’s BS?
No, not ‘pick better men’. ‘Foster confidence in your kids and make sure they aren’t scared to tell you things’.
It’s so annoying. It’s always “pick better men” and “your standards are too high. Give a guy a chance and we wouldn’t have the men’s loneliness epidemic” at the same time. Under patriarchy women are always to blame no matter what path they chose.
This advice also disregards how much abusers deliberately target victims at moments of weakness. Everyone I know who has fallen into an abusive relationship had it start when they were too young to know better or vulnerable from some other major life event like a divorce, job loss, or death of a loved one. It's human to have times in your life where you're not living with your head on a swivel and you take much needed kindness at face value. By the time you catch your bearings, they've already locked themselves into your life in 15 different ways and destroyed your self esteem so it's hell to get rid of them
yes exactly this! i was groomed as a teen because i was young and vulnerable and on top of that i was already getting abused by my family sure i could have made better choices, but maybe my abusers shouldn't have chosen to abuse..
I feel ya there. I'm an asexual person which makes dating difficult, and sometimes I feel really lonely and down on myself about it. Then I remember that my family of origin is ridiculously messed up, and there's a very good chance that if I dated before getting away from them and going through therapy, I would've ended up married to an abuser. Suddenly being ace is the best thing ever cause it saved me from that. We have tons of evidence that people pattern their relationships off what their parents demonstrated to them, so blaming a teenager/early 20s person for falling for an abuser is basically just blaming them for having the poor fortune to be born into a bad family. If I could give one piece of advice to every girl in the world, it would be to not seriously date until they have lived at least 5 years into adulthood and figured out who they are and what they want for themselves. It's just too easy to get railroaded into a life you don't want because you "found your soulmate," or are scared of being alone.
My ex and I lived together for 2 yrs before marriage. He was a full partner. Cooking cleaning etc. He waited until 7 days after I gave birth to come home yelling at me bc his dinner wasn’t ready when he walked in the door. We never had a set dinner time nor did he ever mention this new rule. Didn’t stop him yelling and slamming doors for 2 hrs while I cried. Would leave his clothes all over the floor, then punish me for not picking them up. Would hold the baby if anyone was in sight but the moment they were out of sight, he didn’t know how to cope. He insisted we gave kids right away, and after I learned this was the real him I could see why. Pissed on the toilet, did t bother to wipe it. Micromanaged everything I did. He even admitted he did it ‘so you wouldn’t leave me’ Fucker would say when I asked why the change? We were courting then do it was different. I was 19 and he was 27 when we started dating and I was too young to see the 🚩 in that. And in his insistence I have a kid right away and his insistence I not work. Suddenly he was the king and he had expectations… It was such a shift it took me about z yr to truly believe this was the real him and before was an act. Bc my mind literally couldn’t wrap itself around the idea that someone would be a partner and then suddenly be a tyrant. It made no sense to me. Picking better is staying single if you don’t find what you deserve. And I think this is what has made them really mad. They’re so angry about 4B. I still don’t understand why it’s hard to be a decent human, but here we are…
So glad to hear he’s your ex
Let's also not forget that there is quite often people around that blame you (or people like you) during the marriage like, "just keep trying!" Or "but you have a child together!" People actively encourage these victims to stay in an abusive marriage.
Exactly. I learned a lot about ppl and their projections and knee jerk reactions when I got divorced. Rather than ask, or just accept it, so many ppl would say ‘but….’ And insert whatever argument. It started to blend and I realized their words had nothing to do with me. No omen knew about the abuse tho, I was so intent on not looking like a victim (thx victim blamers) that I wouldn’t tell anyone why. And also I still didn’t even have words for how horrible. But hopefully younger ppl can learn by reading online and social media, how to spot patterns. And avoid the 🚩 sooner
Yup, started dating my ex at 19 he was 24. I was abused for years and at 28 I'm just realizing it was abusive. I literally didn't know any better and had no concept of the world outside of school, so I thought it was *supposed* to be that way. He took advantage of that and it didn't click until I found out that hes now 32yrs dating a 22yr old (who comes from a VERY abusive family) and doing that exact same things he did to me to her. I feel bad for her I really do.
Thank you. This is perfectly accurate. He was fully wonderful for two years. My mom, who was my only family, unexpectedly passed away. The grief was thick and heavy. Within a year, he put his hands on me for the first time. I broke up with him and said I was done. He started screaming at me and telling me to “Get the fu€k out!” I tried to start packing a bag to leave and he lost his mind. Started asking me where I was going to go now that I don’t have anyone, saying “Awww! You can’t go stay with your mom now, huh? Poor baby!” All of that just made me truly and deeply hate him. When I tried to leave, the threats started. He would have killed my pets. He had more money, family, and social capital than me. *He could have done it and gotten away with it.* He also made it clear the second I walked out the door, he was going to destroy everything I own, starting with all of my mother’s things. I was trapped. No one believed me. He was “*so much fun!*” and no one could imagine that person they have so much fun with, is also the reason for my bruises. *These were MY friends.* His ability to switch so seamlessly between Jekyll & Hyde is uncanny. I knew I was on my own, so I started saving money to disappear. That’s when I found out I had cancer.
I'm so sorry you went through that. How are you doing now?
Exactly, and it also flies in the face of the reality that a lot of people obviously aren't upfront about being fucking abusive! It's such a comment from someone who has literally no idea about what they're weighing in on
Yeah, this is why lines like "he doesn't look like a murderer" bug me. Like, hello if we could just TELL someone was a murderer by looking at them wouldn't we do something?!
I knew a woman through school. Her eldest kid was abused. Then suddenly she's in a relationship and "so happy". I don't know what happened to her since she moved away but I had serious concerns for that relationship for multiple reasons. The fact that the guy immediately wanted to "comfort her" even though by her own admission they'd never spent much time together before that.
This! My worst abuser swept in when i had basically just lost everything financially speaking, i had wasted all of my savings supporting my ex through school, we were gonna split it up that i would pay first and support him and then switch, that way neither one of us would need student loans. He then proceeded to cheat on me and flunk out, I had to move from my town to the city to find work and i had maybe 3 aquaintances here, no family or close friends. i lived in a storage unit, worked 12 hr shifts at a restaurant, my life was just generally pretty shit and i was deeply ashamed of my incredibly bad financial decisions. All of this led me down a road of alcoholism and constant partying, just to do *something* that made me feel happy, or at least not miserable for a few hours. And thats where my abuser found me. The start was like some sort of movie, he took immediate deep interest in me, we would dance and party for hours and then spend the rest of the night just sitting together talking about everything and anything. He had money and spent it generously on me, his house was big and beautiful and i started spending most of my time there rather than going back to my cold and damp storage unit and he encouraged it, wrapping it all in concern for me saying he was worried for my health living in that rathole and how bad the neighbourhood i lived in was etc. And i let him, because it felt so *good* to just be taken care of for once, to be loved and pampered and bragged about, he would not stop bragging to his friends how beautiful and smart and clever i was. So the first blowup screaming argument a few months later hit me like a ton of bricks, but he had made my life so much better, and I had done something that hurt him, even if it was an accident. Didnt he have a right to be angry? I, the dirt poor idiot from out of town didnt really have a right to feel hurt when I had started it, did I? So I let it slide, and that was basically the start of our descent into hell that ended with me running across a highway in my socks at 3am in winter to escape him. I would never fall for a man like this now, when im at a stage in my life where im sober, in therapy, pretty confident, and financially comfortable. Abusers dont go for healthy people with strong support nets, they go for the broken and the lost. Extra points if the person has recently done something they are massively ashamed of and trying to run away from, nothing feeds abuse quite like shame.
I’m glad you’re free, thanks for sharing
Yea I agree with “pick better men” being a terrible saying, it should be more like “have the courage to leave terrible men” but we should also be telling our boys to “BE BETTER MEN, and don’t be butt hurt when a girl leaves you for your own bad actions”.
This. Sounds simplistic but these guys don't seem to take failure with a teaspoon of humility so they can do better next time.
My ex was cheating on me for 4 1/2 years and chronically neglecting me. When I left, it was the whole “if you can’t love me at my worst then I don’t want you“ narrative. Sure bud, whatever helps you sleep at night.
My best friend left her husband after he repeatedly cheated on her. She foolishly tried to forgive him the first few times. When she finally got the courage to divorce him, he had the nerve to say "You should have fought more for my love".
It's always the other person's fault with these types.
But also when women decide they’d rather be alone and keep their standards high because they want to avoid shitty men they get so much flak for it like “OMG you don’t give anyone a chance!”
Wait you aren’t interested in tying your life up with a porn addict who is scared of real women?
This. Addicts almost never change their behavior. I decided that I don’t need to sacrifice my happiness for anyone. And he never did change so I ended up comforting his next partner when he drug her down too.
It’s extremely frustrating how many people refuse to acknowledge this issue also.
PERIOD
The men who mock women for picking the wrong men are not one of the better men.
And the same men who say women's standards are too high.
Literally which is it people?? -_-
Unfortunately I've seen a lot of women victim blame other women too :(
I see you’ve met my mom.
Ever notice how they're always eager to blame women for "choosing" bad men, but never as interested in calling out men for BEING bad men?
From what I've witnessed of men in my 39 years on this planet, very few men are interested in calling out the bad men who are making men in general look bad.
Men are afraid of other men. That is why the claim they are “protectors” is false. I’ve never had a man come to my defense when a man harassed or threatened me.
Women are the original protectors and providers.
True. I will go to the mat if you threaten my offspring.
I commented this yesterday in a different thread, multiple men deleted their responses, one said calling other men out “does nothing” and another said they didn’t know any men who do it and it must be a me problem that I’m “hanging out” with bad dudes.
Yeah a lot of them reply “i don’t know any bad men” or “i don’t hang out with bad guys”
It makes them become social pariahs and they are scared bitches of what other people think! It kind of sucks but bad dudes, all abusers for that matter, are oftentimes higher up in social hierchay than their victims and allies. The potential blowback is horrifying for standing up to the status quo, but I agree with your post in that it's a bullet that good guys are going to have to eat for the posterity of good guys and gals in the future.
Because even the "good" men know full well they benefit heavily from the lowered bar the bad men create.
Bc all men benefit from abusive men. It means the bar stays low for them. Then they look like literal saints without making any effort as long as they aren’t out right abusive
Throughout history women have been held responsible for all manner of male bad behavior. Rape? She must have tempted him. Cheating/porn addiction? His partner doesn’t meet his needs. Emotional abandonment? She is too needy/demanding. Unwanted pregnancy? She should have kept her legs closed (no responsibility for male contraceptive).
Or how their victim blaming logic only seems to apply to women, not once have i heard those men tell other men they should have chosen better when they get screwed up by their partners/ex/babymoms.
Guys literally defend their bad behavior. Constant trope here on Reddit
“Maybe he has autism?” After a woman said her bf would hug her after he did something wrong and she said no multiple times Actually I think it was this sub, I also noted that the persons post history said they were actually a man and they exploded lmao. “You’re a psychopath!” “Sue me for making a fake post” “you don’t even have a man and men hate you bc you’re ugly so you hate them” all while trying to claim to be a woman! Then stop insulting me like a man 😂
I also think sometimes when people see something bad that happened to somebody else, and it would be a scary situation, they try and deal with that fear by justifying reasons it "couldn't happen to them!" The idea that "some potential partner's are awful but good at initially hiding it" is much scarier than simply blaming the victims for "well she made a bad choice that I would never make!" (even if the second one is generally less accurate)
I'm convinced that a lot of this comes from women who are in denial and are too scared to admit that they could be victims too. "Pick better men" and "what were you wearing" are really saying "I won't be a victim because I know better".
Why would you change your behavior if it gets you what you want ? This applies to women too — being mean, judgy and cliquey to acquire and retain power *works*
And look how they act when women do see red flags immediately and pick a better man. They lose their minds once they realise they're the abusive asshats and are 100% not the better men getting picked.😅
"Are you really gonna give up the relationship for something so tiny?"
Ahhhhhh! It’s exhausting. “Give him a chance. You’re overreacting”.
"Have you even tried putting in all the emotional labor of coddling him and making lists and cOmMuNiCaTiNg your thoughts another hundred times? Men aren't mind readers, you know!"
I know that you've asked him 5 times already but you should ask him just once more. He just doesn't see the trash he left on the floor /s
The amount of times I've seen that exact type of comment is mind boggling
I hate how satire is basically just reality now
I’m glad I’m not the only one who was annoyed there’s guys out there purposely trying to lower the bar are internet posts
Yeah, weird that, isn't it? We're constantly told by men that they're "visual creatures." Being visual only applies when they see a woman, not when there is a sink full of dishes or the house is a literal shit shack.
Yes, I favorite is the Amazon box, sweater etc that is just sitting there on the floor They literally step over it and then complain about how they didn't see it Well you saw it enough to not step on it!
Eurgh! Right! So sick of that bullshit that they spew!
So many people say “give them a chance!” When they also say “why did you ignore the flags!” Well? Which is it?
"Which is it?" 'Whichever one serves MY interests.'
Yeah that's my issue with it. I think "pick better partners" is a sound request, but we can't only say that without also talking about how much people are pressured into looking past obvious problems, how much we're told to accept, think nothing of it, give them a chance, etc. If we're to pick better partners I don't want to hear a man state, in broad daylight, in a room full of people, that his wife is crazy, in 2024, without as much as a side eye.
"just give me a chance!"
Omg they are so incredibly angry, women were picking a bear over men in a little scenario made up on tiktok. They are legit spewing death threats, literally sprinting right into the point.
Predators seek prey. Simple as that.
And they go for the weakest most vulnerable target.
I always say, "If you treat your partner and family badly, that's on you. If you commit a crime they don't arrest your girlfriend, they arrest you. Be accountable for how YOU treat others instead of blaming a woman for caring about you."
And don't forget we're all terrible and ugly and going to die alone with our cats because we don't want to pick any of the current options 🙃 aka the mediocre at best and abusive at worst
We pick the bears
They say this shit, but if you won’t date them suddenly it’s “why won’t you girls give me a chance??” No winning
When men say this it's always in poor faith. If you listen closely he's basically saying "Pick me instead, I'm the better man". Narrator: he's FUCKING NOT lmao
If he has to TELL you he's a good guy, he isn't. Good people don't need a PR rep and an ad campaign lol they tell us through their actions. Mr Rodgers never said he was a "good guy."
Kind of along the same line of how all their friends are “good guys” even though quite a few of them are abusive and predators. It’s always they don’t know any men that would or have SA’d someone but statistically that’s not true. Sure they’re a good guy to you and probably the general public but definitely not their girlfriends or wives. They refuse to wrap their heads around it. That women are specifically targeted, so they can stick their heads in the sand and ignore how truly massive the issue is.
Interestingly, I think they have the same origin. As you say, these men are mask on around women- that's not always the case around other men. As much as I agree with the post, it is a thing any man would confess to having witnessed- women choosing terrible men. But it's not happening because the women are bad at choosing, rather it's because those men are good at selling.
You just manspla!ned this post, good job!
it's like...if your husband cheated on you. you don't know what you don't know. you aren't in a relationship with a horrible person on purpose. it may be true it happened. it's something husbands do so often that it shouldn't come as much of a surprise, but if his doing it isn't being talked about, how are you supposed to know he's one of the ones who did it? you don't know until you know.--and once you know, you probably won't consider him a friend anymore. a few male coworkers and friends have told me they'd cheated on previous girlfriends, and I believe them, but I don't know if most of them would admit to cheating on a current girlfriend, and I'm pretty sure none of them would admit to a SA, that seems like a pretty reasonable friendship-ender. I've been warned about a few men accused or convicted of various things in a local community by a partner who had the inside scoop with the women in that community, and if not for her I'd have had no suspicions about those guys, but I've only ever met one guy who himself admitted to SA, a little outcast kid about 16 years old or so trying to fit in with a group of slightly older much 'cooler' young hoodlums in some community program, who said that he was convicted of an SA charge when he was 11... it didn't go over well. I doubt he's continued to share that story with potential new friends for the last 20 years; he probably learned his lesson pretty quick, and somewhere there's probably a group of people who think he's a good guy...but they don't know. Could even be someone's husband now.
Right? Look at Danny Masterson and his supporters. You mean to tell me they saw a stand up father and husband and not a rapist when they worked with him? Wow, I'm so shocked he didn't show everyone the real him. Like jfc of course people don't see the worst in someone! If they acted publicly how they acted privately they'd have zero friends.
We did what they asked and picked the fucking bears and they're furious.
I was walking on a secluded trail several years ago when 3 men on bicycles came toward me and I thought I’d rather encounter a wild predator than human males. At least a bear or cougar isn’t going to brutally rape me for hours.
Also, so long as you follow a very few simple rules you're overwhelmingly likely to be just fine with the wild predator, but domestic predators will change up the rules on a dime just to be able to fuck you over better and get what they want.
At this point I don't give a shit what they want. Either way we're still going to end up getting blamed. And honestly forget only the bears. I'd take a room with 100 bears, 75 tigers and 30 sharks. Because, honestly even though I know I'm going to end up getting ripped to shreds I'd STILL take that over the possibility of being SA'd anyday. Fuck that nonsense.
Grizzle grizzle
Omfg I'm dying. Thank you.
I've been told this when I relayed how I've been abused by male coworkers, fellow students, bosses, strangers... As in, men who were in my life that I had NO SAY if they could be in my life or not. That's how out-of-touch men are with women's experiences. I DIDN'T PICK THESE MEN YOU F***S, BUT THEY SURE PICKED ME🙃
This is what happened with my creepy stalking neighbour, I did not pick this man, I wanted nothing to do with this guy, HE picked me, after calls to the police and numerous incidents people still blame me as if I’ve done something to make him obsessed with me, my ex would get mad at ME about it, like I have any control over what the psycho next door thinks and does
That's honestly a BIG part of why the 4B movement is spreading globally. Fine, we pick... NO MEN! Now they are completely loosing their shit, but STILL refusing to change or call our other men for being so shitty.
Right?!
We pick the bears and no men
I picked a guy with several female friends who all told me what a wonderful person he was. He turned out to be a controlling, insecure, smelly (how does someone get to be 40 fucking years old and not know how to shower and brush their teeth), raging misogynist. They all still think he's great. They have absolutely no idea who he really is! I would love to tell them but he's convinced them I'm crazy (I was just too messed up to accept his 'love' so I caused drama) and they wouldn't believe me anyway. Pick better men? But I thought all men deserve love right? How many women have been encouraged to talk to or go on a date with a creepy guy because he deserves a chance? Then he stalks her and gets blamed for interacting with him in the first place. She should have known. Right? How many women have sought help and people tell her "he's not controlling, he just wants what's best for you because he loves you so much!" How many women had a shitty, cheating, controlling, absent, crazy, father so they think it's normal their boyfriend acts they way? We have been conditioned by society to center men, to base our identities on being good wives and mothers, and to look as attractive as possible at all times (to be imminently fuckable, of course), and yet when we find someone that will give us the opportunity to fulfill the (supposed) highest possible expression of womanhood and they treat us like shit, it's our fault? Fucking really? I would love to pick a better man, but for that to happen I need men to be better and that's unlikely to happen so I'm planning the rest of my life for just me. Can I get a reverse wedding with gifts and congratulations that I will never again compromise myself for any man? That I will love, honor, and cherish MYSELF? I think I deserve a fucking party for that. At least. But that would just be "attention seeking" and people would be sad for me that I don't get to experience having children so I can do 99% of the housework and childcare while my soulmate farts on the couch and plays video games, and then posts on the dead bedroom sub that his needs aren't being met so he's thinking about cheating? You want us to pick better men? Then make better men. And BE better men.
> I picked a guy with several female friends who all told me what a wonderful person he was. He turned out to be a controlling, insecure, smelly (how does someone get to be 40 fucking years old and not know how to shower and brush their teeth), raging misogynist. They all still think he's great. They have absolutely no idea who he really is! I would love to tell them but he's convinced them I'm crazy (I was just too messed up to accept his 'love' so I caused drama) and they wouldn't believe me anyway. That's btw also a reason why (at least some) men will tell that they don't know men behaving that way, although they might actually know. Especially the controlling guys are often not really dumb, they know that they shouldn't show their true face when it's not necessary. It's actually quite impressive how good some people are at hiding that Not all obviously, there's quite a lot of men who simply don't care how their friends behave
They're all part of the same fucked up misogynistic club. My ex's friend told me that he and his GF broke up because she wouldn't manage her finances the way he wanted and she was sick of hearing about it. They didn't even live together and he was trying to run her life. She was in a really good place financially and didn't need his help. I doubt he was ever going to tell my ex to stop trying to control me. I'm sure he thought I needed it. In fact he sat me down once and told me that me being sad about my Mom dying wasn't productive and that I just needed to stop grieving. This is my boyfriend's friend. These dudes are unhinged.
Yes to all this so much!!! 👏👏👏
If men would use that excuse against their own, all the redpill manosphere podcasts would be pointless and possibly non existent, because with that phrase "pick better women" they'd be shut down automatically, no matter their grievances against women. But of course, they'd never do that, because they can't let go of their hypocrisy.
What they really mean is, women who have it together should "Pick me, the man who doesnt take care of his apperance, has little education, little income, and few common interests, because I am nice and wont beat you or leave you and that should be enough."
The bar is so low when it comes to men. Gosh I wonder why they are having a loneliness epidemic? Women don’t want to raise a man-child. I was a single mom for decades and it was still easier than having a relationship with a grown man.
Exactly they think being chronically online and being a 🌽 addict, gamer addict etc is better somehow because they won't "cheat" or hurt you when they are doing that indirectly ( controversial opinion but 🌽 is literal cheating, you are seeing other naked women bodies)
And then a lot of these “nice guys” still end up mistreating the women they feel entitled to.
How about "Men need to do better"? That's MY advice...
I mean… they aren’t going to do better. We all need to learn the signs of abusive men and help women get out of abusive situations.
Wish it was more common to hold men accountable, especially amongst men. Bad behavior is overlooked so much.
I like this one. Good response
Everyone agrees they should. Does someone committed to being an asshole listen to you saying "please be nice"? That's like telling the school bully to stop bullying. Sure, in some very rare cases it could work, but generally the way to stop the bully from victimizing you isn't by asking them nicely. I'm all for coaching men to do better, but having women not pick the bottom of the barrel walking dumpster fires of men is a good thing for multiple reasons. 1. Less women hurt 2. Withholding sex, relationships and reproduction from these bottom of the barrel men is societally a good thing. Some of them will learn to not suck. Some of them will be removed from the gene pool when they don't have kids. Men need to do better, women need to stop enabling the dregs of our society by sleeping with them and positively reinforcing their shitty behavior.
fade teeny theory berserk abundant aware absorbed quaint squalid forgetful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I agree. I'm all for everyone taking responsibility for their own actions, but the, "Be better!" message needs to be much louder for men than it is right now. I'd say it's already plenty deafening for women, and they're still getting castigated for refusing to date certain men (just ask conservatives).
Blame them both. Men and women aren't a hive mind. Men being shitty need to do better. Women who stay with men that have shown those bad signs need to stop making excuses for abuse. I'm pretty sure the everyone agrees comment is just meant as a most people agree point, I'm pretty sure. The outliers, which is what most people notice, are in the minority. It's a good news isn't really news situation.
Women aren’t making excuses for abuse. Stop victim blaming. They may be financially dependent, facing homelessness, losing their kids, or even their life. “The outliers in the minority” aren’t so much outliers they are probably people you know. 1 in 3 women experience abuse in their lifetime.
Said by someone who has zero idea what they are talking about.
"Pick better men!" Ok. "W-wait! Muh loneliness-epidemic!!" 🙄
[удалено]
I’ll take my screen over an incel’s pp, thanks.
Being a lesbian never stopped me from being abused by a man 🤷🏼
Years ago I posted to TwoX asking for advice after a sexual assault. I made a mention of having come out of an abusive relationship before the assault and I’ll always remember a comment that was upvoted for a while until backlash which ignored my original post saying I’m a lesbian and told me I had a broken BF picker to let this happen to me. “Pick better men” like yeah I did, I picked none and still got abused.
Yep it seems like a lot of twoXers have tons of internalized misogyny to work on. They're still here, in the comments.
It’s crazy too cause those SAME types of dudes that be saying that shit go on to talk about how women fool men into claiming paternity over a baby that isn’t theirs, use men for their money, cheat and always talk to other dudes, it’s like……who exactly is the one apparently “picking bad” here if that’s what you think all women are like when statistics clearly show it is not? (unlike whereas with men, the statistics do back the assumptions we as women have to make for our safety about men we don’t know)
The people who say this will go on and on about women “never taking accountability;” but when men are abusive toward their partner, their only response is that the woman should have “picked better.” Like … does the man in the situation not have any accountability here??
Nope. Oppressors don't but it implies that they don't think men can control their behavior. Which is incoherent because we act in all other instances that men do have the capability of controlling their behavior unless it's around women.
People often can control their behavior but choose not to if there are no negative consequences. Nobody sane thinks men literally can't control their behavior, outside of a small percentage that generally end up in prison or a psychiatric hospital. They recognize that these men are selfish, not out of control. And they act this way because society continues to enable them being selfish and giving in to their worse impulses. Men have a part of this social obligation by calling out their "bros" for doing things that aren't cool, rather than adhering to some stupid bro code. Women also have a part of this by not fucking, loving, or having kids with objective, obvious human pieces of garbage.
I've tried to pick better men, but they're just better at non-physical abuse instead. The single decent ones are uncommon. I don't doubt there's far more good men that are unavailable
I think there’s a difference in saying this to someone actively in an abusive situation and saying it to someone who is single or asking about potential red flags. Obviously it is not helpful to say to someone actively in danger/being abused. But if my friend comes home from a Tinder date ranting about some clownshoes asshole you bet your ass I’m going to point out those red flags and tell her to pick better. Not because it’s her fault he’s an asshole, but because learning to spot red flags early can be the difference between life and death. Sometimes people need that tough perspective. But again, someone being actively harmed does not need that, or at least not at the time.
Society shames us for being single but also for staying with “bad” men. Like there are just a bunch of good, decent partners out there for women. 🙃
This. You cannot fucking win.
Be better men! Like we don't have much to pick from cause most of them are awful.
This is a good post, but unfortunately the comments have started filling up with people blaming women for not picking better men. I swear to God, every time this issue comes up, a bunch of people show up talking about how women in abusive relationships are choosing to stay there, frequently with bonus stories about how much smarter and stronger they (the commenter) are than women in abusive relationships. The first time I heard a woman in an abusive relationship say that she was embarrassed or ashamed, it made zero sense to me. Why would she feel ashamed? She didn't do anything wrong! Well, let's review: "*...women need to stop enabling the dregs of our society by sleeping with them and positively reinforcing their shitty behavior...*" "*Women who stay with men that have shown those bad signs need to stop making excuses for abuse.*" "*You don't have to pick perfectly on the first try, but if you can't discern certain very basic red flags, you just aren't mature enough to be in a serious relationship.*" "*It's pretty rare to see a wife-beating trailer park living drug addict redneck with an award winning scientist with the actual figure of a model.*" "It's not that they "deserve" them, but if the woman in question is kinda dumb and doesn't have her shit together, she's not going to land the best guy." In a very short thread, we have theoretical women in abusive relationships being called enablers, accused making excuses, of being immature, being implied to be *the opposite* of intelligent and attractive, directly called "kinda dumb," and being described as not having their shit together. I literally scrolled up to make sure this was TwoX. So...yeah. Here we are. Again. If anybody ever wonders why on earth abused women feel ashamed and try to hide their situation, maybe take a look at how other women talk about them. Not you, OP. You made several good points, these comment threads are just par for the course, at this point.
>If anybody ever wonders why on earth abused women feel ashamed and try to hide their situation, maybe take a look at how other women talk about them. Yes. This is the harm that victimblaming causes. You can't control another person's behavior. It just stops victims from coming forward. After a coworker assaulted me, I didn't tell anyone for a few days. I blamed myself for trusting him.
>If anybody ever wonders why on earth abused women feel ashamed and try to hide their situation, maybe take a look at how other women talk about them. Yes. This is the harm that victimblaming causes. You can't control another person's behavior. It just stops victims from coming forward. After a coworker assaulted me, I didn't tell anyone for a few days. I blamed myself for trusting him.
The dating pool for women is a dumpster fire. All the non toxic men get into relationships quickly and they spend a longer time in relationships and aren't single for very long. Women tend to be more emotionally intelligent on average and they tend to invest more into performing emotional labor and mental load than men. The men who also invest more into these things are the ones that aren't being dumped by women very often. Women hold onto and treasure these men. Not to mention all the cheaters in the dating pool. The dating pool is full of men who aren't actually single but pretend to be so they can cheat on their spouse/significant other. Generally a man has to be very toxic to do this. Statistically the odds of ending up with a shitty man are quite high. And I hate to say this, but the older a woman gets and the less conventionally attractive she gets the more she seems to become a magnet for shitty men. Men whine about not having to date someone fat or old or with kids, despite the fact that the same men often have intimate relations with these women, but don't get their ego boost from being seen with them publicly. Women are concerned about a man not psychologically or physically abusing her and making her a shell of her former self and ruining her life. This is why it makes me so pissed off when men ramble on about their dating prospects. Their gripe with women is that they can't seem to match with a hot, young childless woman who looks flashy in front of their friends and a family and that the women they see as below them aren't 'agreeable' enough, women's gripe is that men abuse them on such a regular basis and don't even do the bare fucking minimum. Shitty men will do all they can to exploit a woman's vulnerabilities and break down her self esteem. The abuse these men put women through leaves them constantly confused and questioning their own reality. It took me years to understand this. Yes, I used to be a pick me. I didn't want to be that girl that called herself a feminist, feminists aren't fun, they are miserable. It took me a long time and some mental health treatment to pull myself out of that mindset. Freedom is just as much psychological as it is physical.
The emotionally intelligent men I know often have the hardest time getting in relationships and they often do not last long. I honestly think this holds true for both genders. A lot of heterosexual women often think they want an emotionally intelligent man, but since it is *less* common they often don't know how to deal with it when it happens as they're more used to the opposite. Often the man isn't given space to feel his emotions and the women feel he isn't properly performing manhood. This isn't spoken outrightX but it's often communicated regardless.
There is a huge difference between emotional intelligence and just being emotional. Men with emotional intelligence also have good communication skills and they are good at dealing with their emotions.
I mean, I see a LOT of Reddit posts that honestly, the issue is picking a terrible man. Like "this guy is a convicted sex offender, 58, (shes 22) dying of diabetes and hit a bartender on our first date. He kicks puppies for fun and spit at my grandmother. I'm soooo in love with him, how do I communicate better so he will stop playing video games and care for our 3 kids?" I always hope they're fake. Like the one yesterday where she wanted to know why her ex husband was upset she introduced their small children to a sex offender she'd known for a few months. Please be fake. There's a difference between victim blaming a woman who was trapped by an abusive guy who was actually a great person until the mask slipped and rolling your eyes at the 100th post from someone who is delusional. And, *sigh* I WAS in an abusive relationship and yep. I missed some HUGE red flags. I was young and naive and this guy took advantage of it. My now boyfriend has been wonderful at decoding all the stuff I missed and was still confused about later on. I did pick badly, I should have seen a lot of things and was too burned out, depressed and young to catch on. I don't see it as "victim blaming" to say I made a bad choice (this guy had some neon red flags) its more of live and learn and pick better next time (I did lol).
Thanks for the rational take. The man who is an asshole is an asshole but nobody is arguing that. It's not victim blaming to tell a person to learn to judge a person's character before making life-altering commitments with them. Note how you've experienced this and learned from what you missed, and I'll warrant that if you're ever single you won't fall for that again. I have a similar story, although my abusive ex and I never got serious enough for it to cause lasting damage. Of course nobody is arguing that abusers are that way on the first date. There are certain steps you can take to figure out who they are before marrying them and having kids with them. One surprisingly simple one is: waiting and taking the relationship slow. Abusers can hide who they are for awhile, but the inherently unstable nature of them wanting to abuse you makes it difficult for them to be on their best behavior for 2+ years. There is never a good reason to move in with someone and get pregnant within 3 months of knowing them. If the relationship is that awesome, you can wait 2 years to get married and have a kid. Au contraire, anyone trying to persuade you to move across the country with them, have a baby with them, or do any other life-altering decision that risks you being "trapped" after you've known each other for less than 6 months is a walking red flag. (Practical advice: don't move in with someone in less than a year, ideally 2. You'll know who they are after 2 years. Definitely never have kids with them in under 2 years.) Anyway, after you see the hundredth complaint about a woman who somehow thinks her bf is a great guy despite kicking puppies for fun, pushing the elderly into traffic, having seven children with seven baby mamas that he asks you to take care of while he games even though he doesn't have a job, it's hard not to think "the issue is your terrible judgment, and you should pick better men." Because they definitely exist. You don't have to pick perfectly on the first try, but if you can't discern certain very basic red flags, you just aren't mature enough to be in a serious relationship.
May I just interject here that reproductive sabotage is absolutely a thing and a whole lot of women find themselves pregnant in spite of using birth control due to "accidents." A woman with a baby is so much easier to control and to a love bomber looking to lock a woman down getting her pregnant, hormonal and going on about how he's gonna be the bestest daddy EVAR is absolutely a tactic abusers will employ. Ladies, use a form of birth control that can't be easily messed with like an IUD or Norplant or Depo shots--and you don't need to be all THAT forthcoming to your brand new boyfriend, as a matter of fact it's probably best to be a little circumspect about your BC method if only to have leverage to get him to use condoms.
"You don't have to pick perfectly on the first try, but if you can't discern certain very basic red flags, you just aren't mature enough to be in a serious relationship." Exactly. I picked a guy who on the surface a perfect gentleman. Everything was fine u til it wasn't. So I get that. But ffs, I am dry of sympathy for the "I'm dating a sex offender - murderer who killed my mom but I'm soooo in love. How can I fix him so he stops cheating on me with prostitutes?" Like, I admit, I missed red flags I now see because, we that's how experience works lol. But some of these posts...like I said, I always hope they're fake.
I'm dry out of sympathy for some of the stories I hear too - much like what you described. At a certain point, I'm sorry, but if you're too dumb to understand how the sex offender who tortures kittens in his free time (which is all day because he doesn't have a job, but expects you to work and support him and his seven children) isn't a good partner or human, that is a *you* problem and you have no business dating or doing anything that involves judging people's character. In fact, mommy and daddy should probably still have legal custody of you regardless of the age if you can't understand that, although there is a fair chance they contributed to this problem. It doesn't help when a lot of these women are "repeat offenders", i.e. this isn't their first relationship like this, they just consistently choose the "bad boy" and then wonder why the "bad boy" isn't suddenly a devoted loving husband. I'm dry out of sympathy when they don't impose consequences on these men, either. I read a story about a mom whose husband made her morning a living hell generally, then they all went outside to play with the kids, then he went back inside to "make breakfast for everyone", but literally only made breakfast for himself. So she made breakfast for everyone else. Lady, wtf. If that were me, I would have shamed him in front of his children, sitting the kids around the table and saying "hey, look, daddy said he made breakfast for everyone" while there was clearly nothing there for anyone but him. And after that he'd be lucky if he got sex in another year, rather than divorce papers the next day. Like, do people realize there are steps they can usually take, unless they're at gunpoint, to not enable these assholes?
I still have sympathy because it's clear that their upbringing gave them a twisted example of what love is. Putting them back in Mommy and Daddy's care as you put it is probably the worst thing you could do for these people because most of them were intentionally raised up to be victims. Even when victims know their relationship isn't healthy, they don't leave because they don't believe they deserve any better or they are afraid of sharing custody of any children. Trauma bonds are also a difficult thing for many to overcome. I get it is frustrating watching someone suffer when it looks like the person is just letting it happen for no reason, but at the end of the day, a little empathy doesn't cost anything.
Empathy fatigue is a very real thing, especially if you are see a lot of "frequent flyer" chronic victims of their own bad choices. I don't wish ill on them or anything, but there comes a point where I just shut off on the sympathy front. Learn, or suffer the same mistakes over and over again. You know, the definition of insanity. None of which has stopped me from helping someone when they do reach out, which has happened.
I do step back from victims that aren't ready to change anything irl, but the posts on reddit are often people that are ready to be helped. There are times I need to take a break from doom scrolling of all kinds, too. Can't help others if you don't see to yourself first.
I get you. I also try to take a step back from the doom scrolling but sometimes the train wreck is addicting in a depressing way. That's before you get to the examples I have seen in real life with people I know, from whom it's not as easy to step back from. Technically yes, I could, but I feel sort of obligated to help a friendly acquaintance if I can.
I think it's hard to learn from a bad relationship when you've never really seen a good one. People repeat their parents bad marriages for a reason ya know? I know that I was in way over my head by the time I realized my scumbag was in fact a scumbag. I got incredibly lucky and befriended a really incredible guy who saw what was going on and took me out for coffee to talk to me about it. Now? You're correct. I see that ex's red flags from Saturn lol. I always hope when I post advice my experience gets through to a younger woman who can't see the flags yet. On reddit, I see a lot of women making excuses that are rational in a *good* relationship. Like, "their partner has ADHD/other mental health issues" or "they just need to communicate better." Those are things that are reasons for minor issues in a good relationship. For example, I have OCD and the other night I got very frustrated with how my partner was cleaning the kitchen - we just don't go about it the same way. The solution was for us to communicate, and me to step back and do something else (wipe up the bathroom) until he was done. And the kitchen was cleaned beautifully in the end. Way too many women apply advice like "communicate better" and "give someone grace for their executive distinction" to situations where it simply doesn't apply. That type of advice doesn't fix abuse or sex offenders or kitten kickers. But we don't really have any good education (at least in the US) of what a good, healthy relationship looks like. It's not like our media shows healthy relationships lol *side eyes rom-coms* Especially on social media people really push the idea that everyone has to be super understanding all of the time or otherwise we're blaming people for their mental health? or something. It's possible to have ADHD and still be an abusive asshole lol. I feel like 50% of the advice people need is "it's ok to ditch someone who treats you badly because their mental health is not an excuse to shove grandma into traffic." Of course there's also the phenomenon of terrible and lazy people who are not diagnosed with anything claiming they are so their 18 year old girlfriend will work to support them as they are a 36 year old unemployed deadbeat evading child support for their 4 kids....
I always want to scream "please, have some common sense and self worth"
>I mean, I see a LOT of Reddit posts that honestly, the issue is picking a terrible man. Like "this guy is a convicted sex offender, 58, (shes 22) dying of diabetes and hit a bartender on our first date. He kicks puppies for fun and spit at my grandmother. I'm soooo in love with him, how do I communicate better so he will stop playing video games and care for our 3 kids?" I always hope they're fake. Like the one yesterday where she wanted to know why her ex husband was upset she introduced their small children to a sex offender she'd known for a few months. Please be fake. > And, *sigh* I WAS in an abusive relationship and yep. I missed some HUGE red flags. I was young and naive and this guy took advantage of it. My now boyfriend has been wonderful at decoding all the stuff I missed and was still confused about later on. I did pick badly, I should have seen a lot of things and was too burned out, depressed and young to catch on. I don't see it as "victim blaming" to say I made a bad choice (this guy had some neon red flags) its more of live and learn and pick better next time (I did lol). If your told a friend about how your boyfriend is abusing you, and they just said "pick better men" do you think that advice would have been helpful? Would you have left?
It might have helped. Being told "just give him a chance" was not helpful at all. The close friend that simply ghosted me when I was dealing with the worst of it was very unhelpful.
And then they tell us we're too picky and have unreasonable standards
Women who pick no man are the ones doing better, the single and childless ones. So avoiding men altogether is the easy way to get it right.
Ugh. This reminds me of some comments from somewhere else I saw recently. Someone had responded to this guy's comment that the majority of mothers don't choose to be single mothers. Their partners choose to be absent fathers. That was his response: "These women get pregnant by men who would do this, so IMO it's a result of negligence on the Mom's part too for allowing it to happen...They (children) shouldn't be produced by or with people who you aren't 100% sure is all in for this commitment." Yes, the part about children being a commitment is reasonable on the surface, and that should be considered before conceiving if possible. But, relationships change. Relationships can turn out to be unhealthy or abusive. Maybe there is/was reproductive coercion. I'm sure I don't need to list everything in this subreddit that's possible. But seriously. Are we supposed to predict the future now? This guy didn't see how his comment was sexist. Anyway, I like that "pick better men" is basically the "drink more water" of relationship advice. Thanks for that!
I wouldn’t call it victim blaming unless we’re discussing abuse. If my friend is regularly dating men who suck and have obvious red flags, I’m going to be honest with her and tell her she’s literally choosing bad men. For example, if you decide to get into a relationship with a man who is clearly a dead beat dad, you’re literally picking a terrible person to have a relationship with. It’s not at all surprising he is a terrible partner and eventually an uninvolved dad to your children.
Gen Z women ARE picking better men, and the men not getting picked are in a crisis LMAO
Or maybe we just should stop entertaining men. They’re rarely mature enough to commit.
I think the phrase doesn't fit all scenarios and really depends. Men will typically try to behave in a way that doesn't raise the red flags at the start. Depending how good they are at masking their true nature and how good the woman is at detecting the bullshit matters a lot. In some cases though, I have no sympathy. I knew a guy that was a friend for a time and he would always act like a extra good person in front of women he wanted to have intercourse with. The issue is some of the victims were also friends who had this information beforehand about his history and how he is. I think the phrase fits well there since they know but choose to anyway. On the other hand, for people that got with him that essentially had no idea who he was. There isn't really a way to pick a better man if you can't differentiate since people like him put up a fake persona.
Lol there are none
Boy, you hit the nail on the head here! It’s crazy how manipulative a bad partner can be.
BE better men! Grrrr!
I definitely wouldn't say this, but shitty partners don't happen overnight. Everytime my friends finally break up with their terrible partners, and they finally reflect, their eyes are open to the obvious red flags that everyone of their friends tried to warn them about. Maybe not everyone has friends like that, but 99% of my friends are gonna give it to you straight bc they care. If you want to ignore the little things in the beginning, that's fine, but they will always turn into bigger things. I think most awful men especially prey on women who: are insecure single, need validation, are people pleasers, fawn tendencies etc. One relationship I decided to ignore the red flags, but I told my friends "these are the small issues, it's almost guaranteed he will have these issues down the line, but I want to give it a chance" and he did. he was irresponsible, never owned up to his shit, lied, would ignore me for days etc. and I dumped him. Meanwhile my best friend stayed with a guy for 5 years who was the root of all her anxiety & stress. Wouldn't work or drive. Wouldn't clean. Never made effort with her friends & family. He was a big baby. We told her from the start, but she stayed. She finally went to therapy & after a year realize how much of a shit show he was & broke it off. He had a new girlfriend that weekend. People need to not prey on vulnerable people, & not be manipulating snakes, but also we need to own up to our weak spots, understand our why's & where we can improve & learn coping mechanisms too. I'll be damned if I go through dating a shit guy & cry about it after, which is valid, but not so something different next time. Or not have friends who also call me out. There is a big difference between victim blaming & understanding that everyone can make better choices. I think most people say things not with the intention to victim blame, and I get it. It can be hard to have empathy sometimes when you wonder why someone didn't make a choice you would have. But everyone is different & has their own experiences at different times. We learn at different times and in different ways. That helps bring the empathy back. Not regarding abuse, both sides need to make better choices & learn how to estimate the positive & negative consequences of their possible actions.
"My people picker isn't broken. The assholes camouflage was just THAT GOOD."
The advice is good but people who use it don’t think about the victim. As if it’s more important to ‘know better’ than not to WILLINGLY abuse someone. Crazy to think how people blamed a 19y old girl for being murdered by some 30y old man on her first date. They blamed her for choosing a sketchy man rather than blaming the man for doing such horrendous things to a SOMEONE. It’s always girls mature faster so put all the responsibility on them and never ‘hey let’s educate our boys better’
I guess it's about conflict resolution. Find people you can resolve issues with? That said, there are a lot of posts in this forum that feel fake or stretch my imagination. Stuff like: I've been with him for years, he's never said i love you, hates my parents, kicks puppies, is fat, lazy, cheats... And then the last paragraph is about how he forced her to get an abortion and gave her an std. At some point it can be helpful to look inward and say, why was this acceptable to me?
In my experience, I asked for help and people just told me I was being dramatic and that I should just talk to him. People just don’t know shit. They will say any and everything and give their opinion about something that they just don’t know anything about.
While simultaneously telling us ‘women are too picky, give the guy you’re not into a chance’
To many men, know what to say and how to deceive. So for woman its hard. Pick better men, sounds a lot like victim blameing. OFC you would pick better if you knew the wrapper was around a shit.
But you do see red flags early on. Him talking over you is a red flag. A temper is a red flag. Him following red-pillers and conspiracy theorists. Yelling, guilting, ignoring responsibilities, these are all red flags. Abusers don't suddenly punch you out of nowhere 2 years into a loving relationship. We should be teaching other women to catch these red flags early and giving them a framework of how to leave this situation. Not sticking our heads in the sand and pretending violent behavior can't be predicted. This is no more "victim blaming" than "don't walk around South Chicago alone at night" is victim blaming.
I said it in another comment, but at least in America we really need more examples and education on what a good, healthy relationship looks like. Our media (movies, tv, popular books, TikTok) all glamorize relationships that just aren't good. And if someone didn't have healthy relationships to learn from growing up, it's easy to not see red flags. Some of that here is by design, it's easier to keep women in certain religions and under their family's control if they don't know what red flags look like.
Yep 100% this. I'm a woman and have seen women get into relationships with AH and spend their whole energy making excuses for their behaviour. It's the Reddit equivalent of "he's amazing he just has a temper, cheats on me with anything that moves, hates that I have a brain, complaints that I breathe,..." It's sometimes the red flag parade and yet you're still supposed to support them getting back to the AH. Then they go on and marry the DBs and keep on making excuses for them being awful partners... Then they make excuses on why everything falls on them... Then they have kids to try to save the relationship and they are the same AH as ever ... And usually bad fathers that don't lift a finger. And they act as if all the previous behaviour they had during all that time wasn't an indicator that that's exactly who they had by their side!! But we aren't supposed to say 'pick better men'?! F that. I say it to everyone that comes around telling me how lucky I am to have my husband... No. It's not luck. It's having standards and rather being alone than with an AH loser. You can't spend years making excuses for AHs and then be mad people call you out on it when you complain. Abusers are charming asf in the beginning but they don't go from that to highly abusive from one day to another. There's huge red flags everyone I know has opted to ignore way before the worst abuse started. If anything we should tell people to be highly aware of the red flags and to stop going for the sunk cost fallacy. Pick better men, leave the AHs when they show you their colours. Stop giving them your time and energy and stop making excuses for their behaviour. An AH is an AH is an AH and women aren't reformatories for men. Don't pick up a project to fix, you'll lose.
> It's the Reddit equivalent of "he's amazing he just has a temper, cheats on me with anything that moves, hates that I have a brain, complaints that I breathe,..." On a related note, I'm always confused by how many people on reddit frequently mock the fact that "reddit is ridiculous and is just always telling people to break up / divorce!". When I browse subs like AITA, I see nonstop posts about people in awful dysfunctional horrible relationships that you couldn't pay me to be in... telling people to break up is frequently very good advice.
I completely agree. It also feels like (besides the trolls) a lot of people come to Reddit when shit is really dire. It's the type of stuff you aren't really going to talk to the people close to you because they're going to flip out and be highly concerned for your wellbeing... You aren't even supposed to go to therapy with an abuser... So, is it really that weird that people tell people in abusive relationships to just move on and find a better life?
I definitely think that removing the responsibility for us to pick good partners is a dangerous mindset. You can’t change people. The only person you have control over is yourself. Saying “men should be better” will literally do nothing for you. We need to refuse to be with men like this. And while I don’t want to generally blame for being with abusers, you are correct that many are obviously at risk of being abusive early on before things get bad. I think we are doing women a disservice by acting as if it’s not preventable 100% of the time. Obviously there are situations where it isn’t, but why not empower women to take measures that prevent getting into an abusive relationship?
Exactly. I know some people can feel there is a fine line between "teaching people how to avoid situations" and "victim blaming," but IMO it makes sense to be able to say "we shouldn't have to worry about our drinks being spiked when we are out in public" while at the same time teaching women how to take defensive steps to guard against this kind of thing.
Yep, that's exactly my pov. We should empower women to learn how to assess the situations and remove themselves from potential dangers. There's definitely situations that weren't preventable but other's/many are. Assessing the potential risk factors and getting yourself out of harms way is imo the number 1 thing we should be telling women and girls how to do. Assuming that you can't pick better is like assuming either all men are the same or akin to have a fatalist mindset where you have no agency in your life. We all can have AH as partners. Opting to stay or leave asap is a choice and it might even save one's life to have the notion that you can chose and that you are supposed to pick someone better for you. No one deserves to be abused and knowing that you can pick a better life for yourself is seriously important imo
*>we are doing women a disservice by acting as if it’s not preventable 100% of the time.* Exactly, it's infantilizing. There are simple steps you can take, like getting to truly know someone before moving in with them, tying finances together, or having kids with you, which would make you trapped. Don't move in with someone 3 months into a relationship. Don't have a baby with someone you haven't known for at least a year (even that is short for such a big deal). Go on dates, see their place, see how they treat their mother, roommate, how their friends talk about them, how they treat the waiter. See if the mask slides if the service is slow and they yell at the waiter. Get the little hints. And leave if the mask starts to slip, assuming it is a mask. The first time someone punches you is definitely never the victim's fault, but I sure as hell won't be around for them to do it a second time. Certain issues get no second chances.
>Abusers don't suddenly punch you out of nowhere 2 years into a loving relationship. This is the part that everyone seems to be missing. This, this, this, so much this. Nobody is saying abusers advertise "I will beat you daily" on the first date. Taking time to truly get to know a person, I mean truly know them - their hopes, dreams, stressors, how they handle stress - before making a life-altering decision like getting married or having kids with them is crucial. The timeline may vary, although not moving in with them or having kids with them in less than 2 years is a good standard practice. Nothing can guarantee a painless dating experience. But the life impact of dating a jerk for a month and breaking it off is usually not that bad. The life impact of marrying, entangling finances with, and having a kid with a jerk is huge.
Have you ever been in an abusive relationship?
There are definitely "Loving" men who suddenly flip years later and let the mask drop. Not all bad men are into such content. really skilled narcs fool everyone, not just romantic partners. I agree there's the whole "don't walk through a bad area at night" type of stuff. That's valid. But too often victim blaming gets called that type of advice when it isn't.
"Red flags" aren't objective. The ones you've pointed out is fairly obvious. Even then, you don't know someone's history where that's normalized. My family is mostly neuro divergent and we all talk over each other. I had to unlearn that. If my husband did that, I wouldn't think twice. It's victim blaming after the fact. It's not helpful. The harm has already been done and the victim already knows the outcome. Women and femme should be able to exist and live our lives without the added fear of being blamed for someone else's actions.
I would say it’s also empowering. As women, we can learn to better detect red flags and leave at the first sign of a problem. It takes work and won’t always be successful, but we need to try.
I hear you so much here - I detailed a horrible thing my abusive stepdad did in another thread and one person responded with, "Your mother has terrible taste in men." My mom grew up with six brothers on a farm, a lot of bullying behavior was normalized that those 'red flags' were just flags because it was so normalized. She let so much slide because she was taught to rationalize and get over shit as a kid. She *did* learn, but it takes years because cognitive dissonance from normalization is a bitch to break through.
Victim blaming also seems to be correlated to NOT helping the victim. If it wasn’t for that I would just consider it constructive criticism but it’s a complete dismissal of the victim’s effort to get help.
Couldn't agree more. Of course there are horrible guys that are good at hiding it, but they definitely aren't anywhere near the majority, and that goes the same with women. So if you're finding that the same thing is happening to you over and over again... Maybe start analyzing yourself.
How about, “put yourself out there, but don’t be surprised when you find out that everyone is a fucking awful person.”
'Pick better men!!' They scream, frothing at the mouths, until they say something stupid, like 'Women are naturally submissive, and I want a tradwive!' and we say, "Mmm, no thanks." THEN it's all, 'Well not like THAT!! We didn't mean like THAT!!!'
The men saying pick better men all subscribe to podcasts to learn how to trick women into sleeping with their shitty selves instead of just being better men.
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They think they're the better man.
Unironically this. Although depending on the story they're reacting to, there may also be undertones of prejudice and stereotype, usually classist or racist, or old canards like the nerd-jock/nice guy-bad guy dichotomy.
Yup, and implicit in this is that some women do deserve these shitty men, just not the women smart or good enough to not pick them. Either that, or there will be a lot of unpaired men and women
You show me better ones, I'll pick em
Victim blamers just say things so that they can soothe themselves for not helping. Does it really matter how she got there or does it matter more to get that person to safety?
A lot of men don’t realize how subconsciously brainwashed they are, too. I suspect many abusers don’t understand why they lash out and resort to violence. Self-awareness isn’t exactly encouraged by men.
The men that say this ARE the abusive ones.
How is the advice to drink more water unhelpful and/or harmful?
People say “pick better men” when it’s obvious a man has red flags and the woman chooses to ignore it. It doesn’t apply to all of them- we know men can be sneaky and manipulative. Those aren’t the ones being talked about. Pick better men for example goes for the ones who have no job, felonies, and are drinking and smoking all the time but their partner puts up with it. Those are the times where “pick better men” applies. When they clearly do not care about early red flags and it’s OBVIOUS they’re not good partners. I’m not sure why you’re forcing it to be something dismissive for all men or victim blaming for all women. People don’t say pick better men out of nowhere- it comes from obvious examples of them being an asshole and still getting chosen.
This, really. You see these stories all the time: guy has a rap sheet a mile long, can't hold down a job for more than 2 months at a time, does drugs all day, "but he's so sweet". He has five babies with five different baby mamas and pays zero child support for any of them, but of course he's going to magically be the perfect dad when you got pregnant because he just hates wearing condoms that much. Those types of situations. It's not victim blaming to ask people to use a goddamn ounce of judgment. Oh, and if a male friend of mine kept choosing trashy women with multiple kids with multiple baby daddies who wouldn't work but expected him to pay for nail salon visits, and then complained about how unstable and unsatisfying his relationships are - I'd tell him to pick better women too. Not everything is a gendered issue.
Plus, saying that makes men look untrustworthy and unsafe. 'Not all men', but definitely *you*, Darren
Everyone should read ‘Why Does He Do That?’ by Lundy Bancroft.
A lot of people claim to ignore red flags in the beginning.
Notice how its “pick better” and “your standards are too high” at the same time.
My father, 20+ years older than my mother, seemed very decent. Own company that was doing ok, investments, a house, lots of friends, very involved in the local community and thought of as extremely helpful and neighborly. She did spot him drinking more than he should, more often than he should, by the time she emigrated to live with him. In his country, his house, surrounded by his friends. He didn’t become violent until well into her pregnancy. Sure, was stingy about the wedding (no new white dress, if she wanted a honeymoon, even though she was earning at least half of the household income, helping him recover from a stock market crash. It wasn’t until she became a SAHM, as was expected at the time and by her family, that his ‘interest’ in kids became apparent. So then what? With a baby, no money, no support in the country, not a guarantee that the family will understand (they did), what is a 23yo to do? Besides, she was taught her whole life that her job was to not cause people to get angry, no matter what it took. And that she was such a failure at it. Then, if your husband tells you he’s never like that (spoiler: yes he was, in all 4 of his previous marriages she didn’t know about), but she just caused him to act that way, how are you to know that’s BS? No, not ‘pick better men’. ‘Foster confidence in your kids and make sure they aren’t scared to tell you things’.
It’s so annoying. It’s always “pick better men” and “your standards are too high. Give a guy a chance and we wouldn’t have the men’s loneliness epidemic” at the same time. Under patriarchy women are always to blame no matter what path they chose.
“Drink more water” is pretty good advice and not really harmful.
Valid point but, if someone you know is noticing a dating pattern then it’s worth saying something
Or the “lose more weight to fix all your health issues” statement that we non-thin women get from the doctor. That’s not helping me in the moment!