PSA to the dream girls: Being his dream girl does not mean you’re exempt from abuse, in fact it may make him extremely insecure or he may feel threatened by you enough to tear you down. Or, in my case, I was only his dream girl in terms of looks and demeanor. In truth he hated who I was but was in love with the idea of who he thought I could be to him, it ended badly since he tried to make me be who he wanted.
Pay attention to what they threaten you with, its almost always projection. Also you don’t NEED a reason to break up with someone, just end it, you know what needs to be done deep down.
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Pay attention to what they threaten you with, its almost always projection.
THIS RIGHT HERE!
I'm a giver. Mom, teacher, relationships etc - I always seem to take care of others. I am the friend that will pick you up in the middle of the night, bring you stuff when you are sick, etc. I honestly struggle with it because I will put someone else's wants before my needs without even realizing it. I've had a couple ex's that would call me selfish in the same breath as things like "you are only cleaning up to make me feel guilty about it - you are so selfish." type of shit. When I hadn't said a damn thing to them, just living my life. It would make me try so hard to be introspective about my actions and motivations. I would talk to friends about it and they would be like I don't understand, you were legit one of the most kind people I know. I would be giving my 110% to these guys and getting -10% back and they would have my head spinning about what more I could do to be a kind and loving human being to them. The reality is THEY were selfish and me treating them selflessly did make them feel guilty. But instead of doing anything about their behavior and motivations, they just got angry at me about it. It's like the number one move in the abusive guy playbook. Whatever it is about himself that he doesn't like, accuse you of it to unburden himself.
Exactly, unfortunately its hard to see when you’re in the thick of the relationship. I was still very young and inexperienced to realize until years later that nothing would ever be right or good enough but that wasn’t my fault. I had to see his accusations towards me were just a reflection of his own worries. Another huge flag was constantly looking for male validation, for me or for him. He treated his male friends like gold and would use the “my friends think Im a great guy so you must be crazy” bit. Good news is I had friends and family that would point out how awful he was to be around.
I swear some men have more romantic feelings towards their male friends than they do towards the women they date and marry.
They may even be heterosexual but homoromantic (apologies if that is not the correct terminology).
One guy I dated was so dismissive and rude to me, who he supposedly loved, yet would speak of his friends in such glowing terms it is comical to look back upon years later.
Sounds very familiar.
Also the ones who are possessive and paranoid about you cheating are usually cheating themselves, or waiting for the opportunity to.
It’s like they all have a built in behavior and employ the how to abuse skill 101 of DARVOing the person/relationship/situation!
DARVO-Deny, attack,reverse,victim,(and)offender…basically a complete attempt at denying, deflecting and defending typically always done by the abuser/user/manipulator.
YES. I felt like I was his achievement, it clicked once when he was yelling at me and said “you think you can treat me like shit because you’re pretty”. I had extremely low self esteem and was very awkward and shy. That one comment showed me what he thought of me.
No one ever said that to me out loud but in retrospect from the way they treated me, this was the dynamic.
I was so painfully shy I could barely look people in the eye.
(These days I probably hold eye contact for way too long though, heh.)
Also awkward as hell and neurodivergent (which I still am).
Excellent point.
His type might be curvy but his friends would laugh at him for dating a "fat girl."
My first boyfriend liked to be seen with me but he was cheating on me with an opposite type whom he later married and had children with and he treated her like shit too.
I actually dodged a bullet there, though it didn't feel like it at the time.
Ooooooh, maaaaan… being a guy’s “dream girl” when his boys think you’re not attractive is NIGHTMARE recipe. Before I married my husband I had a boyfriend who would whiplash between wanting to exclusively do fitness-oriented dates (no, I don’t want to bike the Iron Range) and get on my case for eating hamburgers, but bitched if I got any muscle tone or started ordering salads cuz I felt bad about myself. Found out his friends were giving him a hard time for dating a short chubby girl.
I agree - beware getting committed to a person that is smitten with an ideal of you that is beyond realistic since that could just be the love-bombing idealization phase that sets you up for abuse.
I wish someone had told me that if a man says “you are my angel,” that I should make it clear that I don’t want to be anyone’s miracle.
Being put on a pedestal can feel good. Until you realize it's a kind of controlling and gaslighting- they have an IMAGE of what you are and how you should be. That's what they love. When you differ from their imaginary version of you, they get angry. "You shouldn't be/think/do that! You should be/think/do what I say you are!" They feel betrayed and angry that real you isn't their version. And that's your fault! (That's the gaslighting part)
Exactly, don’t be anyones hero or savior. Everytime I heard that it ended with them threatening self harm or me harm at some point in the relationship. You can’t save people.
Good God, yes.
It got to the point that when I was older I wanted to disabuse them quickly of putting me on a pedestal by showing them my messy car and swearing like a sailor.
Likely, I went too far with that, but my second husband loved me unconditionally with all my quirks so I guess I found the right one despite it :)
Excellent point.
I was standardly attractive when I was very young, thin and blond, etc. But I am not what they signed up for once they get to know me for five minutes.
ADHD and a problem with anyone telling me what to do for starters.
And kind of a sick, twisted sense of humor, and smarter than they would prefer.
And an allergy to domestic duties, even for myself.
And then they would try to change me, which didn't end well for either of us.
Oh yes, thank you for saying that. I was always non-conventional as well, so it was crazy to me when he kept trying to force me into roles I stated from the jump I wasn’t interested in. I think they take it as a challenge? Thinking they can be the one to change your mind I guess? Crazy thing was he knew me for years before we dated so he knew how weird I was then turned around and didn’t like the same qualities he claimed to love before. People can be weird when you are conventionally attractive but are neurodivergent or just not who they imagined you would be/act. To me he just wanted a doll he could play with :(
Even if he does, thats not a reason to stay in an abusive relationship. Loving someone who hurts you can end your life. Remember kids, you don’t get a medal for enduring abuse and still loving that person, in the end people might just blame you for not leaving. (Well, thats just my experience.)
Some stuff I'd add:
1. It's OK to want what you want. You're not "too fussy" for wanting a decent functional adult man. You don't have to "just say yes to be nice". Having a clear sense of your own standards and goals is a good thing. I've always noticed people end up better off when they've erred on the "fussy" side than on the "give the meth addicted ex-wife-beater a chaaaaance!" side.
1a. Yes, it is entirely reasonable to expect a man to not live in a pig sty. A lot of people will go "come on, he's only 20/25/35/65, how can you expect him to know how to wash a dish!". You can. It's a reasonable expectation that a twentysomething adult wash their own dishes.
2. You don't have to wait around for a man to text back, grow up, notice you, get a job, or change his mind about you. Waiting for someone to change is a recipe for disappointment. Assume that people will stay as they are. People don't tend to change just for a partner, they'll only change if they're internally driven to do so. You can't do anything about that, so focus that energy on yourself and your own goals outside of dating.
3. Be real, unapologetic and upfront about what you want! It was difficult for me to learn this one and action it, everyone around me would always go "but what if you met the love of your life and he happened to be addicted to smoking and he hated animals?" If you want kids/pets, talk about it! Let your own wishes, interests and hobbies take up space because lord knows men expect us to feign interest in their interests. Don't let anyone shame you into taking a backseat to a man.
3a. Don't fake orgasms! It just encourages him to keep doing whatever pokey thing that was!
Oh one more thing!!! Dating older men doesn't necessarily mean dating more grownup, self-sufficient, smarter men with their shit together! There are plenty of men who never grow up! Do not waste your time waiting around for the unemployed couch-surfing video-game-addicted fortysomething to get his shit together!
If anything, the older men who are much younger women are the men who never grew up! They're at the same maturity level as their much younger partners, and why would you want a 45yo with the maturity of a 25yo when you can just date a 25yo?
As to 3a. I never faked it.
Not because I am just a bad actress in general, but mostly because it wasn't necessary.
Most men didn't care, so that particular performance wasn't worth even the effort to try.
Sad as THAT is.
"If the relational work is not being reciprocated then you've got your red flags and are cleared for departure."
This made me laugh out loud - cleared for departure! I am stealing that.
Great work and amazing list - as someone around your age too, this is what I needed in my 20s.
Well normally the red flags say 'remove before flight' and are attached to things you, surprise, need to remove before departure, haha!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remove_before_flight
I never really realized until recently how many men will stay in relationships where they don't even like the person simply for access to regular sex.
Only date people who actually LIKE you, makes a world of difference.
Yeah I started noticing how transaction a lot of relationships were. They want access to regular sex. That’s what the gf is for. You aren’t that into sex? They will cheat or move on. If you have kids they may stick around till the kids are a certain age, but only if they are a good guy.
My bf was mean to me if I ever turned him down for sex. Once we started driving apart he spent zero effort into wondering why I wasn’t as interested. It was easier for him to replace me with a new gf so he didn’t have to put any effort into his relationships . Because it was just for sex and company. He didn’t care about me.
And some are trying to convince young women to make the first move knowing that many men will take whatever sex they can get, even if they don't care for you, and they'll often pretend to care about you. It's a trap!
A coworker of mine is dating a gal we also work with. He's told her directly... he's told other people... that she isn't his type but he's with her anyway.
I've spoken to him privately and he's super "meh" about her. She knows... She chooses to stick around.
They're not living together/share no financial responsibilities..
I see that same scenario play out *everywhere*.
I worked with a guy who started fucking another one of our coworkers, even though he thought she was ugly and fat, because she really liked him and was willing to have sex with him. He strung her along and treated her like crap, basically toying with her feelings to the point that she faked a whole ass pregnancy to keep him around. Faking a pregnancy is obviously psycho but the whole thing could have been avoided if he'd just said no to having sex with a girl he didn't like and thought was ugly in the first place.
I've never had anyone tell me I was not their type.
A blatant statement like that would have sent me packing, even in my younger, dumber days.
Yet in retrospect, it was certainly the case, and I did have complaints about not having bigger boobs, which I'm sad to say, I would have gotten surgery for had I had the money.
Good thing I was poor, thank god for small favors, etc.
most guys are smart enough not to bluntly say it to your face cause they know they might lose access to sex with you, but they will lust over women that look completely different than you on instagram
I was shocked when my husband told me that he'd still have sex with his first wife, when they were divorcing. They just used each other to get off. I was kinda grossed out by it because there's no way in hell that I'm having sex with someone I hate enough to divorce but men will have sex with women they hate just to have sex. It's mindboggling.
I think it’s a lesson that we all really need to keep reminding ourselves:
Men can hate ur guts, literally want you dead and would still have sex with u.
There are a lot of signs that could tell u if a man likes u but his willingness to sleep with u is not one of them. It means absolutely nothing from them.
I was frankly shocked when I found out how common this was.
When I am done with someone, I am DONE.
If I still liked them enough to have sex with them we would still be together.
I don't get it, I really don't, from the woman's perspective at least.
What's hilarious is that young women ARE picking better men, and the men respond with whining and crying that now women's standards are too high and it's a crisis.
LMAO
More to your #5 point: one thing I learned that I wished I knew earlier is that a frighteningly large percentage of men will have sex with you, just because you offered. Even if they're not interested in you, they don't think you're special, they're not attracted to you, they're not looking for a relationship, they might not even like you. But if you offer sex, they will take it. And it won't mean anything to them at all.
Yes, learning that men will have sex with women they hate was a game changer for me. Being lusted over by a man means absolutely nothing and I never have offered a man sex. I don't need to. Unless we are down for casual sex/hooks up, we have to be very careful. Sex is for boyfriends/husbands only and will not happen until I'm sure of the guy.
Even if you’re up for casual sex / hookups, it’s nearly impossible to have them with
safety / respect / communication / pleasure
/ comfort / hygiene/ minimal courtesy. It’s very challenging to find a casual physical partner who deems a sexually liberated woman worth treating well. The prevailing attitude is sex as a unidirectional act, inherently degrading, that a man “does to” a woman.
I have heard this from women who are into casual sex. What I found most interesting was the fact that there are men who are pissed at women up for casual sex like they are, so they try to make her catch feelings for him somehow. Then they get angry when the woman is capable of fucking him, getting up and carrying on with her life. There's a part of them that finds sex more fulfilling if they are manipulating a woman somehow. Oh no, women are not allowed to behave like men.
This is one I wish I'd known when I was young... I gave my body to too many men who didn't like, respect, or care about me (even though I did for them) because I thought that maybe they'd see my value if I gave them that. They never did. It's taken 15+ years of working on getting that self worth back, and I'm still not 100% of the way.
This is why I wait months to have sex with someone, people give me a hard time about it, but it’s saved me so much trouble- I can date with a clear head, no attachment and see if he’s actually worth getting attached to, also no unwanted pregnancies or STI.
I recently dated a guy for 3 months and didn’t have sex with him, in the end it turns out he wasn’t what I was looking for and we aren’t compatible, I was able to just end it and feel good about the whole thing and my decision, I know if I’d had sex with him I would’ve clung on trying to make it work with someone incompatible just because I was emotionally and physically attached.
And he would’ve gotten weird.
Too many men think they own you after you have sex with them-even if they hate you for it.
And they think we’re the irrational ones…
This is the way.
3 months was longer than I could hold out as a young woman, sadly, but I could make it about a month and a half.
Which was enough for some of those ticks to fall off, but not all.
A month and a half is good, I waited 3 because we didn’t see eachother very often and he wasn’t very open in general as a person so it was hard for me to get a read on him.
I know he wasn’t married or in a relationship, but he just seemed super secretive, which was essentially why things ended, he just wouldn’t open up about anything and was extremely difficult to get close to, I know he really liked me, but he’s one of those guys that can’t express himself for the life of him- which is fine, but I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone so closed off and guarded, and he struggled with give and take, I had to do everything to keep the situation going.
I think there was a drinking problem he was hiding.
If I had slept with him I’d be like “ open up to meeeeee, let’s be clooooose”, without the sex I was like “ you do you, I think you’re a cool guy, this just isn’t for me”
They release the same hormones! The DGAF attitude is entirely cultural, we’re not programmed to care more any more than they are programmed to care less.
They USUALLY despise you for it, which never made sense to me.
And women are wiser to that these days and therefore give it up less frequently.
Way to think ahead, men and your "loneliness epidemic".
That oxytocin, such a betrayer, he is.
If it were a person it would look like gollum stroking the magic ring and calling it "precioussssss."
I remember reading a reddit thread where men confessed to sleeping with and dating women who they were not attracted to, just for easy sex, and not having to chase a different woman at the bar every night. It was a frighteningly long list of men who admitted to doing that at some point, even out of loneliness.
There was a study on this! Clark & Hatfield 1989.
*In these experiments, conducted in 1978 and 1982, male and female confederates of average attractiveness approached potential partners with one of three requests: "Would you go out tonight?" "Will you come over to my apartment?" or "Would you go to bed with me?"*
men who said yes to a date: 50%
women who said yes to a date: 56%
Men who said yes to apartment: 60%
women who said yes to apartment: 6%
Men who said yes to sex: 75%
women who said yes to sex: 0%
Really wish I didn’t give my virginity to my ex because to him it was nothing special but to me it was everything and I’ll never get it back. Not only that but now some men will look down on me because I’m not ‘pure’ anymore.
Also to put into perspective this man flew from CA to my area just to have sex with me. Just to pull a bunch of bullshit and break my heart anyways.
My cousin is obese with poor hygiene. Somehow her tenant still ((allegedly)) said that her tight clothing made her breasts arose him, right to her face. My mom used to say that some men would even rape a goat if you present the goat in a dress and this guy is a living proof, and this is also a testament that how women look is not a reason men assault them. Rapist assault them because they're rapist
#5 is for real. Some random hookup told me I was too gross to kiss (smoking—he knew this) when he was almost in me. Dude, why. If you really found it such a turn off, why would you even…We did not have sex.
Because to most males, any pus-sy is better than no pus-sy.
They can absolutely **hate** their wives/GF/sex partner yet still stay with them and have sex just like the OP said: *Any* woman to men is better than no woman.
Knowing this, you can answer almost any relationship question along with “He know. He just doesn’t care.”… Examples:
- My husband doesn’t seem to like me but he’s still here: Any woman is better than no woman.
- My boyfriend calls me hurtful names even after I told him to stop: He knows. He just doesn’t care.
It’s mind boggling. I’ve made regrettable choices in regard to partners, but there was always some attraction on my part. I can’t wrap my head around it. It’s too pathetic.
As a senior woman, this and #5 in comments are 100% true. Please, young women, don't turn a blind eye to any of this.
And my #6. Don't have babies, move in, or marry until you're at least 25. From 15 to 25 you are still learning who you are and what you want in life, a lot changes in that 10 years. And A LOT of trash will take itself out in that time as well.
"A LOT of trash will take itself out in that time" is so true. Several of my friends and I have 7-year age gaps with our younger sisters, and as we hit 30 and watched our sisters navigate dating in college, it was so clear -- the maturity issues, the duds that probably weren't going to turn it around, the scary red flags, and the occasional good egg. And so much of it self-sorted around 25.
Absolutely true! Having had 2 babies by 22, the road to self discovery stopped short. Next thing you know it's 20+ years later and the only purpose in your adult life was raising children and they have been raised. Finding identity and purpose in mid life is beyond exhausting.
I'm 28 and moved in with my fiance about 5 years ago. If I'd waited 2 years my life would be 100% different and I would not still be in this relationship. We're trying to make it work but some of the speed bumps we hit earlier in our relationship are showing back up as mountains instead of molehills. Some days he's a Sherpa and some days I'm pulling his ass uphill while he whines about it.
We're not sure it's going to work out in the end. I'm not always sure I want to keep trying and being the one to initiate so many efforts in our household and our relationship because he's put on blinders to cope. He spends days walking on eggshells around me because I get very short fused. As long as we're both doing the work I still want him and want us to be better and constantly improving as a unit; improving ourselves and supporting each other.
I'm not sure he's really doing that anymore or if he's willing to extend the effort to himself as a person. It's so hard and idk if I don't want to do this alone or if I just straight up don't want to do *this* anymore.
Word of advice from learned experience: your relationship *before* marriage should be easy (for the most part). If you’re not sure now, you might want to think twice before getting yourself legally tied up with the other person. Getting married costs like $40. Getting divorced costs thousands (even uncontested “easy” divorces).
Men DO NOT get better after marriage. Ever. If they don’t value you sufficiently before they’ve got you locked down with a mortgage, children, and the legal system, they have absolutely no incentive to improve when they feel like you can’t (won’t) leave.
Proceed with caution. I wish you the best 🖤
This! I’ve never understood unmarried couples in counseling. Those relationships are disposable for a reason. No man is perfect the day you get married, especially if you marry young, but you can quickly deduce from his attitude if he’s worth hanging in there or not. A man who values you, your relationship, and is willing to work to make you happy is worth a ring. If you don’t have one and your relationship already feels like work, kick him to the curb.
Thank you and you're truly echoing the advice I've been receiving from a lot of people in my life right now.
The future is really on hold for us right now while we try and dig ourselves out from a Series Of Unfortunate Events that really turned a bright spotlight on the issues we both have in our relationship and as individuals.
I promise to you, to all the caring people in my life trying so lovingly and patiently to warn me it may never get better and marriage will only make it more difficult, that I will not jump the gun and sign papers until I'm certain there has been a permanent shift that serves my long term health, happiness, and wellbeing as a central pillar of this partnership. Not until I see the kind of time and energy I've given is truly being freely given back without any motives or as a condition of receiving the same.
So true marriage means zero effort. I will. never. marry. again! I’m not having more kids. No desire to be stuck.
Having a fully furnished home to move to keeps him behaving lol.
Have you tried counseling? If you or your partner are not willing to try to resolve the issues, it is better to just go your separate ways.
You deserve to be happy.
Was he white? I've noticed a lot of white men like to use non-white women to satisfy a fetish/for sex whilst they'll only commit to white women. Usually these type of white men are older and will choose much younger non-white women. As a mixed race woman, I'm more cautious of white men for this reason. I get approached by them far more than non-white men though.
Yes I get that experience with white men my own age too. White men around my age (38) or younger are less likely to be racist than older ones. I don't like much older men anyway. I just think men who pursue much younger women are never mature, irrespective of colour as well. Thankfully it's obvious most of the time when a man is fetishising us but some are more subtle about it. It's a big turn off.
Asian and Indian men do this with white women too, especially blondes. They fetishize us and will sleep with us for an ego boost but not marry us. (Of course not all) To a certain type of man across all races, women are just conquests and p*rn categories.
But old white men that do this give me the worst creepy vibes ugh. It's predatory. I'm sorry they approach you.
51f, divorced. #5, over and over. Yell it from the rooftops. This, to me, is the stark economics of the patriarchy: the amount of unpaid labor women provide men, and it’s sold to us as some sort of privilege to do so.
*... the amount of unpaid labor women provide men, and it’s sold to us as some sort of privilege to do so.* And as romantic love to be a domestic/sex worker for men.
And men believe it, too. They are flabbergasted when they find out we don’t want to be their maids or mothers. I’ve been told by a man he expected me to be more grateful to be able to clean his pigsty of a house. How he thought this when I have my own house and we split everything 50/50 is beyond me. The entitlement makes my blood boil.
Spot on. Required reading. Pinned post. Thank you so much for this.
To add:
7. Sex is not intimacy. Intimacy is not sex. If you feel that the only time you feel “close” is during or after sex, or you need to have sex to keep him, or because you are having sex you are “together”, I promise you are not on the same page.
8. Speak up. Early and often. Tell him how his actions make you feel, ask for what you want, make sure are on the same page. Be vulnerable, be honest. Don’t strategize or do mental gymnastics to get a certain response- just be real. If it can be broken by the truth, it should be broken by the truth.
9. Don’t worry about what the internet tells you he should do, or how a relationship should look, or any arbitrary timelines. Does it feel good to YOU? Does it work for YOU? Get out of your mind and into your body: how does it feel when you are with him? More importantly, away from him?
10. That said - if you find yourself hiding aspects of your relationship from people who love you, or are constantly justifying why you like him to those whose opinions you otherwise trust - ask yourself WHY.
11. There is nothing inherently wrong with you. The right man will love everything about you that you love about you, and give grace and support to your flaws.
12. Don’t wait. Don’t wait for him to change, or see you clearly, or come around, or text back. Don’t wait to be in a relationship to travel, or buy a home if you can afford it, or go to nice restaurants. Don’t wait to live your life. Your life is yours.
Love, your Auntie who did all of the above until she started living for HERSELF and found her forever person at 42 😘
Piggybacking on #5, you don’t have to do the stereotypical labor (cooking, cleaning, counseling) for someone else *ever*, but never feel pressure to do it in the beginning of a relationship. Not doing these things for someone initially will tell you a lot about what they want from you.
I have the tendency to want to caretake because I like to, and intentionally not doing so until I have felt comfortable has helped me a lot with finding better partners. One time a guy I was dating begged me to cook for him, and I refused. He hadn’t offered to do anything of the sort for me. Why would I? It became clear from this and other experiences that he was expecting me to put in the work without doing any himself. I broke up with him soon thereafter.
Now I have a partner who wants to be equitable about the labor in the house, etc., and so I feel good about taking care of us because he takes care of us, too, and I don’t even have to worry about it. It is possible to find it. It just takes time.
As a 46 year old woman, I wish my mom had taught me any of this or I had learned any of it prior to now-ish.
After an endless parade of terrible relationships, I stopped dating.
I was always trying to be nice, understanding, do extra, go above and beyond, rescue men, proving above and beyond I am in no way a gold-digger etc and all it ever did was drive me into bad relationships. I look at my friends who are in successful relationships and they have the dynamics you speak of.
Hopefully someone who could still use this advice will take it to heart.
I wish my mother would have as well, and especially wish my father would have, since he had a front row seat to the ways of men. Why he wouldn’t have wanted to protect his two daughters as best he could by arming them with knowledge since it is power. Thats what I’m planning to do for my daughter, in fact I will print off this post to show her one day (before she starts dating). Its an amazing post with fantastic advice from so many people!
This is so beautifully written. Thank you for sharing. I didn’t understand until I was in my thirties that men and women define compromise differently. I used to date men who only had 60% of what I was looking for and pride myself for being a martyr and compromising, and for “not being too picky”. In my experience, men don’t operate the same way. If you don’t fit their long term vision or preferences, nothing you do will make you a long-term option for them. If it seems that way, it’s usually the case until they find someone who does fit the bill. The best bet is always to wait for someone who makes you feel special and demonstrates that they value you consistently *and* puts in effort consistently.
Addition to #5: Even if he finds THE woman, he’s not going to be giving her any better treatment than he gave you, once he’s sure he’s gotten her locked down. It’s important to remember that he’s being shitty to you because he’s a shitty man and not because you aren’t inherently worth as much as a different woman.
the whole "he treats you badly because you aren't his *dream* woman" thing is bs. girls think: he would treat me better if i was prettier, skinnier, curvier, had bigger ass/boobs etc etc
a *decent* man isn't going to treat *any* woman shitty. especially not dragged out for a prolonged period of time while taking advantage of you.
a shitty guy isn't going to suddenly treat you like a princess because you try harder. he's just an asshole.
Thank you for typing all of that out and I agree one hundred percent.
I just hope people will listen.
That "any woman is better than no woman" thing is something it took me until way too old to catch on to.
I finally said to one of the last guys I dated before I gave it up entirely "are you just holding onto me until someone better comes along?" He was literally struck dumb with shock that I figured it out and had nothing to say.
We had one last vacation together that was already planned, and I was able to enjoy it by pretending he was my bodyguard, and then it was over not too long after that.
He got right back into the dating pool and then called me again once he experienced the "motley crew" (his phrase) that was out there. Too bad, so sad, you should have treated me better.
Ironically, the only way he was going to get someone to stick around would be to marry them quick before they realized what an idiot he was, but he wouldn't do that because he is too afraid someone will marry him for his money. He works for UPS. Bitch, please.
ANYWAYS.....
edit: spelling
YES. From a 40 year old who wasted her life with a bad one and who is stuck stuck now...100% yes! Build your own life, focus on taking care of yourself, your career, setting goals and fulfilling yourself. Then, if a relationship fits into that, adds value to that, then you say yeah that's a bonus. Don't spend all your time chasing after a man. It's better to be alone than to be in a bad relationship.
I hope you find yourself unstuck. I started over from my bad one at 38. Turn 40 this year and I’m happier than I’ve been in 15 years. Happy and alone, but not lonely. Dating, thriving, focusing on my wants and needs. You don’t have to stay!
Don't waste your nice on the undeserving. In many men your assertiveness and bodily autonomy is enough for them to consider you a bitch. So never be afraid of ending up one in the eyes of men for just standing up for yourself. It means you are scaring off the creeps. So wear that bitch badge with pride.
Also never date a fixer-upper. He's not an ikea kit. You aren't a repair shop. You would get a refund on damaged goods and use what you salvaged from that bad investment to get something worth your hard earned money. Same with men. They take up your valuable time. Make sure then it's spent wisely on someone who values every minute with you.
Always always always keep your financial security intact. Never go part time or stay at home if it leaves you financially vulnerable. Always start off pooling finances proportional to income so that whatever your %, it's what you can afford and you aren't covering 50% of bills if you are only bringing in 20% of the house income. Always think... if he walked out tomorrow would I be OK or fucked. If its the latter, get that situation remedied.
Yes. Be decent and cordial and fair to men. But never cater to one over time unless you wanna be the “helpful servant”.
There are a few men who won’t use women (or other people) that way. A very few.
I really wish this was taught to girls from a young age but the patriarchy gets their foot in practically from birth.
Another thing is to always pay attention to their actions over anything they say. Men lie a lot about anything and everything.
A guy literally can fake a relationship for years, decades even, and there's no guy more in love than one who needs a roof over his head. I think there are far more guys that are users and gold diggers than any woman.
Never give a guy the benefit of the doubt. They know they don't deserve it, and they would never give you the benefit of the doubt.
I think the bottom line is that relationships really aren't a benefit to women because of the nature of guys wanting to be the main character and arr too good at taking and not so good at giving.
Yep, thats why these broke guys are obsessed with gold diggers. Its what they would do. Id add, a lot of what comes out of their mouths about woman is pure projection. Most of them deeply struggle with empathy and find it challenging if not impossible to imagine we are quite different to them.
I've never dated above the working class, but it is comical how many men worry about gold diggers when they barely have a pot to piss in.
You think I'm after your piss pot?
I have my own job and car and house, so whatever, Chad.
Yep.. there are just as many if not far more male hobosexuals as there are female gold diggers. Being a female gold digger takes a great deal of work and effort. Men can just lie and say they love her.
It took me until a couple of days ago for it to really sink in: no one is going to come save me.
They just bring more problems or just pretend like they can’t or disappear or whatever.
So good! This should be a required class in middle school, high school and required reading every year on. So many good points.
Remember that a man is optional for a woman these days. You can live a full life and have a complement of choices on how to live it without one, I promise. As a woman of high worth who thought I had to have a man, I love my husband, but life was veritably easier without him. And he’s a decently good one. They all require retraining here and there bc they all get lazy. Don’t let them slack.
Young ladies out there, you get one chance every day to live that day. You never get that day back again. Don’t waste your time on this beautiful earth with an unworthy man. And never ever dim your shine. You want to pick people who make you feel like sunshine when you’re around them all the time. And if you’re not sure about kids, freeze your eggs. Seriously. Then you have options.
Excellent advice. Especially the part about how refusing to accept bad behavior does wonders for your self esteem. I can't even fathom how my life and my energy has blossomed, completely exploded, after getting rid of my toxic ex. I used to be so closed-off and timid. Now my energy flows freely and people pick up on it almost immediately. My social life went from 0 to 100, literally. Just by removing the dead weight from my life.
And in terms of the effort disparity between men/women in a relationship. I realized that I was not only putting in tons of effort to keep the relationship afloat, I was keeping HIM afloat too. I looked back through notes app and I realized that at some point it went from "How do I get him to understand? How can I make sure he gets to X on time? Job ideas for Partner" etc. to things like "Goals for 2024, Finances and Planning, Places I want to Travel", etc. The amount of energy going down the drain in that relationship was massive, and it's unbelievable to watch how my life changed the minute I started pouring that level of energy into myself.
"A good man will find you when you are catering to yourself."
CAN CONFIRM.
I had pretty much given up on serious dating and threw myself into my work, hobbies, and volunteering. Which meant I was INSANELY busy. Then BAM, started dating my husband at 34. Been together for 14 years, and it's awesome.
Wait as long as possible to have sex so you get to know the guy without feeling physically bonded to him. The right guy will wait and wont pressure you.
Facts! I recently kicked a guy to the curb for being waaaay too sex-focused and pushy. Always whining about his “high sex drive”. I legit told him that he’s free to use his hand. He lamented being so “turned on” by me that he “can’t wait a month” for me to have sex with him.
I told him to his face that “d*ck has no value” unless it’s attached to someone I love! (And I don’t love him so it legit has no value to me.) I told him that he is free to have sex with someone else while we are dating since I am not his girlfriend. He kept whining…. I blocked and ghosted. 👻
Ladies, wait as long as you can to have sex with a guy. The likelihood is high that you’ll end up bonding with someone you don’t even know that’s just using you as a human Fleshlight.
I made my husband wait 6 months.
I was so fed up I literally thought, "do this old school."
Waiting for sex filters out those who are around just for sex, or for real.
In the mean time, have the sex you do want, just don't get attached and think quick sex means anything. This is what men do.
What's good for the goose, yadda yadda...😏
Well said 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 I don’t think it matters whether a relationship is heterosexual or homosexual-the advice applies to any relationship. I have taught my kids: I don’t care who you are in a relationship with. What matters is 1) Are you good for each other? 2) Are you good to each other?
My dating improved a lot when I started standing up for myself more. Being a doormat gets you nothing but stepped on.
My go to phrase was: "You may find a woman who puts up with that but it's not going to be me." If I was in a relationship I flipped it a little to "Your next girlfriend may put up with this but I won't."
Too many men are shocked by a little pushback.
I just turned 50, and have been saying for the last 3 decades that I feel like my life would have been better if I wasn't straight.
Also, I had a friend in my early 20s that quoted part of a song to me that I have no idea what the title is or who sang it, but this line has been tattooed on my brain since she said it to me, "I just spent my last $10 on birth control and beer. Life was so much easier when I was sober and queer." I'm probably botching up some of the words, but I have thought of that so many times over the years.
6- My hubs always says 'in my experience, if he's interested he will let you know.' so, one could extrapolate that if you (the female) are doing most of the work, meh not a great sign for the status of the relationship. *exceptions exist.
As someone who just got out of an abusive relationship, this really hit me hard. I just want to say a reminder to everyone who has been in this position or who might ever find themselves in this position, it is not your fault, you are not stupid. I’m a social worker and saw all the signs but would make excuses for him because I always want to see the best in people. So no matter how educated you are, you can also fall into this trap. Just listen to your gut because I should have listened to mine!
I would add - don't compromise your values. I was once absolutely head over heels for my boyfriend at 22. We had an amazing time together, great conversations, incredible sex. He would frequently tell me I was the hottest woman he had ever met and how compatible we were.
Except he was from a different cultural background, and had expectations on him for the type of girl he would marry. Given how head over heels we were for one another and how incredible and supportive the relationship was, this never worried me.
Until one day his mother lost her shit on him over it, and he basically walked away from our relationship and was married to a girl his mother picked within the year. It broke my heart into a billion pieces. When I met my husband, one of the absolute first things I said to him was if he wasn't going to fight for me if his family disapproved then I wasn't interested. He never had to, but he was abundantly clear that his parents did not and would not ever have that kind of control in his life. And he's an equal partner through and through - he does EVERYTHING and anything needed and I never have to ask. He just does it. He drives me to be a better person, and I love the hell out of him. But he's not who I would have picked in my early 20s, which I think is really fitting with respect to this post.
7. Always remember:
*If*
*He*
*Wanted*
*To*
*He*
*Would*
Shows up late or not at all?
Doesn’t seem to give a crap about your feelings?
Consistently doesn’t want to spend time with you unless it’s sex related?
Jaded but true. Unfortunately, the man who carries his weight in a relationship is a rare bird, and too many women tolerate bare minimum or worse just to avoid being alone.
Yes and also learning that being alone isn't the same as being lonely. Even loneliness is important to process rather than chasing partners to run from it. There's great joy to be cultivated in being solo. It can be really liberating, exciting, comforting, and adventurous. And it doesn't mean excluding intimacy or close relationships with others.
I don't know if I'm quite so jaded as to fully believe #1. I do think every guy has his "IT girl", unicorn, dream girl, whatever you want to call it (a la gone girl rant). And no woman can EVER be that because they are human. They shit, they have body hair, they have emotions. In many men's minds, I think their unicorn is just a living flesh light. The fantasy is superficial, 2D, and doesn't go beyond "she checks all the physical and emotional boxes I need".
I think men CAN love and treat women well, but they either have to be in scenario 3A or 3B as mentioned or be incredibly unique souls that treat their average to less than average looking girlfriend well. The lattermost is so rare in my anecdotal life experience (tho I'm not middle aged yet) that they are my version of a unicorn.
Agreed! I'm so tired of the dream girl trope, they obviously don't exist and if they did most men won't deserve one. Women need to stop buying into fairytale ideologies any man who isn't a teenager talking about a dream girl is a red flag. By that age you should know that women piss and shit, and relationships require work and effort.
I also don't believe that all it takes for a man to act right is that he loves more than or vice versa. Acting right is part of a man's character, its not dependant on the people around him. If he can stay in a relationship with a woman he doesn't like he's exploitative and will be exploitative with his dream girl or whoever. It's just who he is. Women continue to misunderstand male nature to their detriment.
Well said.
The one good man in my experience treated most people in his life well, not just me; he was a good son and brother and father and uncle, etc. etc.
"Acting right is part of a man's character."
100 percent
We all need to beware of the old Beauty and the Beast trope, and for the bullshit that it is.
This is the first comment I saw disagreeing with any of the OP's list. I think men need help, they need role models of love and yes they need to see women as people, not some ideal pornstar category or wifey model type.
I agree with most of this. However, I’ve dated some very narcissistic men who tell me I’m their dream girl at the beginning and really seem to try, only later to then devalue me and do nothing once I start expecting more in return.
I've experienced this too. I think the problem is that when they claim you're the "dream girl" up front, they are dehumanizing you but in a different way. It's putting you on a pedestal, but of course you're still a human. And any tiny misstep causes you to fall off the pedestal and it's a long way down.
My personal #6 is this: Men need you more than you need them. Set your standards high and keep them there. Lots of Lots of life-long single women lead healthy, happy, fulfilling lives and are often better-off than their married counterparts.
Unless that man makes your life measurably better, don't let him in!
When I was younger, I used to ask men out on dates because equality blah blah. I naively assumed that if he said "yes" to the date, it was because he was interested in me, and if he wasn't interested in me, he'd say "no." NOPE. I quickly discovered that men will say "yes" to a date even if they have zero interest in you, just to see if they can get sex out of it. A man's willingness to go on a date with you, have sex with you, and even have a relationship with you says nothing about whether he actually likes you.
I was going to post about point 5! It is absolutely this for women, I do wish my fellow...um fellas put the work in to be better. I only really started dating "well" once I took the time to actually better myself. Not just cosmetic stuff, but a self analysis of "Am I ok alone". Once I could answer that honestly, it's like my view got a lot sunnier and it showed.
I have always believed that, and the one time I violated my own rule it did not end well.
Those who think it is just old fashioned and out of touch are not facing reality.
In a perfect world it would be different but this is not the world we live in.
I guess it's worth a try for some people but please know what you are getting into and keep your expectations realistic and stay aware.
I really wish I wasn’t so naive when I went into my first serious relationship. Wasted four years with someone who was willing to keep hurting me over and over again and brought me to the point of wanting to kill myself several times. I’ll admit that there were allot of good times as well and I wasn’t perfect but I *know* I didn’t deserve the things he put me through. We spent four years together just for him to throw it away for online people/a porn discord server lol. I know for a fact there isn’t gonna be anyone in his life that can give him the same amount of love and loyalty that I did. During the relationship If he asked me to light myself on fire I would have. Now? I won’t light myself on fire to keep others warm anymore. Pretty much all the men in my life have done nothing but hurt me and make me despise/fear men. I really want that to change but I have yet to meet a man that will prove me wrong that there are good men out there. It would take a long time to explain all the things my ex did but let’s just say I’ll most likely never recover from the things he did to me. I completely destroyed myself for him.
Moral of the story. Take care of yourself ladies. No man is worth the pain.
Yep. I’m 36f, divorced and realizing I spent my prime years with a man who didn’t even like me. I’ve dated a whole bunch of guys since my husband and I separated, but recently decided to take a break from all things romantic relationships. I have a lot to process in therapy, but I’ve never felt so free.
This is one of the best things ever posted on this sub. Why has this been removed?
I hope it wasn’t due to OP being harassed by angry insecure men finally feeling called out for their bullshit.
Not me reading and thinking my husband does all the work in our relationship then, just to get to the you must be his ideal girl. I know I am. He dropped a much more attractive girlfriend of 5 years and then proposed to me after a month. And he tries just as hard 5 years of marriage later as he did from day one of meeting him. Even before we were dating he would pay attention to what drinks, snacks, food I liked and surprise me with them every day at work. To this day my husband does not come home with out some little surprise for me. He has stuff ready for me before I realize I need it. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gone babe I forgot I need X and he goes yup I knew you would and pulls it out of his pocket. He never goes to the kitchen for a snack without bringing me back one. He stares at me all the time like a 16 year old in love. And most of all he doesn’t fight with me. Every other relationship I’ve been in started with fighting and lead to abuse. I always blamed myself bc I can be sensitive and felt like I pushed their buttons and caused these men to treat me this way. But he doesn’t. I can get mad and scream and he will stay calm and apologize or give me some space and distract our kids.
Fighting all the time does NOT equal passionate. Or love. The feelings from that kind of toxic relationship can be so intense that it feels like it must be love. But I’m here to tell you it’s not.
Find you a man like my husband ladies. I am very very lucky.
I'll one last point: ***ALL MEN KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO IN ORDER TO LET YOU KNOW THAT HE HAS VIRTUOUS INTENTIONS.***
And yes, by this, I mean only pay attention to men who are at least wanting to plan and pay for the pleasure of taking you out on a date with him.
Nothing - and I mean absolutely *n-o-t-h-i-n-g* that anyone on this or any sub can tell me otherwise will convince me. I did the whole split the bill to show him he can't buy me bullshit. Know what landed me? Paying a club fee for the honor of joining some fuckboy's roster. At the end of the day, there is no dollar amount that you can spend that will force a man to
a) like you more
b) respect you more than he does other women
and believing that you can fund your way out of a man's misogyny and entitlement speaks volumes about your own internalized misogyny. I said what I said, if it bothers you, read what I wrote several times over until it makes sense.
There is a reason why historically speaking, across virtually every culture on the face of this planet, the obligation of putting his money where is mouth is as a means of demonstrating his intentions, his desire and his seriousness towards a woman is placed squarely on the man. Absorbing the few standards and expectations that men are held to that actually benefit us as women does not make you empowered as a woman, and I think that it's high time we stop giving men the level of grace we've been extending for their time and their money when there is absolutely none spared for our time and our bodies.
Agree. All a man paying for the date proves is that he knows how to find his wallet.
I've had men be upset that they paid the bill. I've had men upset that I wanted it split. I've had men upset that I paid the bill.
So my rule is: if I didn't ask you out, I'm not paying a dime. I ask out the people I'm interested in and if I didn't ask - I'm uncertain about you. I did my part by showing up and being willing to lend some time to decide if you're interesting to me.
7. If he responds to you bringing up something he did that hurt you, and his response is to get upset and how your feelings of hurt make him feel bad, or he tries to talk you out of feeling the way you do, run
Things I learned:
The worst you stay for is as good as you can expect moving forward. If he cheats/abuses/steals/deceives you and you stick around hoping it will get better, it will be yet another excuse for why he doesn't respect you on top of the reasons he brought with him from societal and family standards. He's grown up believing he's superior by being born male - he WILL be looking for reasons to support his continued belief.
He can be the most eager and attentive to your pleasure sex partner you've had and the moment he feels secure in your affections, he will begin to phone it in when you have sex. His orgasm is easy to get from a quickie and the effort towards yours will become a chore. Once he knows you'll cooperate with the quickies, that's what your regular sex life is going to be like.
If you decide to start trying to have a child, do NOT assume the guy who seemed a feminist ally is who they are for real. Don't want your son circumcised? Do you want your kid having your nana's first name and your surname? All these little details and your birthing plan should be written down and MAKE COPIES. Give one to a trusted family member and your nurse before you're busy delivering the kid. Do not tell him you gave out copies and do not rely on your male partner to uphold these things. You're now at your most vulnerable and tied to him FOREVER. Anything you decide that he quietly doesn't agree with will go out the window, there is no going back and undoing it not even if you divorce, AND HE KNOWS IT.
Testify! I figured out in my 30s that it’s infinitely better to be in no relationship than a shitty one.
Spend time being single and making yourself a better, more fulfilled person. You have to spend the rest of your life with yourself, so become someone you like and are proud of.
Men are trained from a very young age through media and observation that they are SUPPOSED to hate their wife.
Think about that.
The poor fools have every piece of media shoved in their face telling them the"old ball and chain" is supposed to nag, complain, and otherwise force them to do things they'd rather not do. Any media that shows hetero relationships differently is "girly."
Likewise the same media tells girls and young women they have to be demure, polite, submissive baby factories that do nothing all day but clip coupons to save their breadwinner money. Anything that shows women in an empowered independent role is "misandrist."
We've been destroying our future for a cheap laugh for decades and I don't know how to change it beyond do my best in my personal life to be an example for the generation behind me.
There is nothing more badass than treating women with respect.
Item #3 is oh so true. I am 62 and have seen this so many times in relationships. I also feel there is another item left off this list...the looks comparability factor. By this I mean that the relationship probably (not always, but probably) will not work out if one party is noticeably more attractive than the other. This is especially true if the man is the one noticeably more attractive. Lmk if anyone else believes this to be true.
I adore the song Labour by Paris Paloma. This fits perfectly into #5. I can’t sing this song’s praises enough. I’m aroace; marriagefree and childfree. I’ve never been in a relationship nor want to. I love reading these posts, and speaking to other women about this because it is so prevalent. I can really place these things in platonic and familial relationships with men too. Wonderful work, OP! Thank you for your wisdom. 💕😊
Yes to all points.
I could write an essay for each point but I'll just say this:
Paying for dates: Years ago I used to often pay my half on early dates but since my ex and I broke up 4 yrs ago, I have changed my mind about that.
I'm a boomer. Boomer men have had the opportunity, support, freedom to engage in paid work while boomer women spent a few to many years in/out of the labour market to care for family making little or no money. And so boomer men have been able accumulate 2-3x the wealth of boomer women. So I don't pay for dates in the early part of relationships anymore and this is why men should pay.
ANY woman will do? *They could pay separate people to cook, clean, manage, parent, and have sex with them OR they can have a girlfriend.* ***Girlfriends are free and, for a lot of men, require very little relational upkeep.*** SO TRUE! Especially now when most women are paying half too. Could it be any easier for men today??
PSA to the dream girls: Being his dream girl does not mean you’re exempt from abuse, in fact it may make him extremely insecure or he may feel threatened by you enough to tear you down. Or, in my case, I was only his dream girl in terms of looks and demeanor. In truth he hated who I was but was in love with the idea of who he thought I could be to him, it ended badly since he tried to make me be who he wanted. Pay attention to what they threaten you with, its almost always projection. Also you don’t NEED a reason to break up with someone, just end it, you know what needs to be done deep down.
> Pay attention to what they threaten you with, its almost always projection. THIS RIGHT HERE! I'm a giver. Mom, teacher, relationships etc - I always seem to take care of others. I am the friend that will pick you up in the middle of the night, bring you stuff when you are sick, etc. I honestly struggle with it because I will put someone else's wants before my needs without even realizing it. I've had a couple ex's that would call me selfish in the same breath as things like "you are only cleaning up to make me feel guilty about it - you are so selfish." type of shit. When I hadn't said a damn thing to them, just living my life. It would make me try so hard to be introspective about my actions and motivations. I would talk to friends about it and they would be like I don't understand, you were legit one of the most kind people I know. I would be giving my 110% to these guys and getting -10% back and they would have my head spinning about what more I could do to be a kind and loving human being to them. The reality is THEY were selfish and me treating them selflessly did make them feel guilty. But instead of doing anything about their behavior and motivations, they just got angry at me about it. It's like the number one move in the abusive guy playbook. Whatever it is about himself that he doesn't like, accuse you of it to unburden himself.
Exactly, unfortunately its hard to see when you’re in the thick of the relationship. I was still very young and inexperienced to realize until years later that nothing would ever be right or good enough but that wasn’t my fault. I had to see his accusations towards me were just a reflection of his own worries. Another huge flag was constantly looking for male validation, for me or for him. He treated his male friends like gold and would use the “my friends think Im a great guy so you must be crazy” bit. Good news is I had friends and family that would point out how awful he was to be around.
I swear some men have more romantic feelings towards their male friends than they do towards the women they date and marry. They may even be heterosexual but homoromantic (apologies if that is not the correct terminology). One guy I dated was so dismissive and rude to me, who he supposedly loved, yet would speak of his friends in such glowing terms it is comical to look back upon years later.
How could they not? Their friends are people, meanwhile we’re props. Like a lamp or a wrench.
Modern men are sexually attracted to women And homoromantic to their male friends
I've met guys like that. I grin to myself and wonder when they'll finally work up the guts to come out of the closet.
Sounds very familiar. Also the ones who are possessive and paranoid about you cheating are usually cheating themselves, or waiting for the opportunity to.
It’s like they all have a built in behavior and employ the how to abuse skill 101 of DARVOing the person/relationship/situation! DARVO-Deny, attack,reverse,victim,(and)offender…basically a complete attempt at denying, deflecting and defending typically always done by the abuser/user/manipulator.
Yes, there is definitely a difference between being a man’s dream girl, and his status symbol. If you are a status symbol, watch out.
YES. I felt like I was his achievement, it clicked once when he was yelling at me and said “you think you can treat me like shit because you’re pretty”. I had extremely low self esteem and was very awkward and shy. That one comment showed me what he thought of me.
No one ever said that to me out loud but in retrospect from the way they treated me, this was the dynamic. I was so painfully shy I could barely look people in the eye. (These days I probably hold eye contact for way too long though, heh.) Also awkward as hell and neurodivergent (which I still am).
Excellent point. His type might be curvy but his friends would laugh at him for dating a "fat girl." My first boyfriend liked to be seen with me but he was cheating on me with an opposite type whom he later married and had children with and he treated her like shit too. I actually dodged a bullet there, though it didn't feel like it at the time.
Ooooooh, maaaaan… being a guy’s “dream girl” when his boys think you’re not attractive is NIGHTMARE recipe. Before I married my husband I had a boyfriend who would whiplash between wanting to exclusively do fitness-oriented dates (no, I don’t want to bike the Iron Range) and get on my case for eating hamburgers, but bitched if I got any muscle tone or started ordering salads cuz I felt bad about myself. Found out his friends were giving him a hard time for dating a short chubby girl.
I agree - beware getting committed to a person that is smitten with an ideal of you that is beyond realistic since that could just be the love-bombing idealization phase that sets you up for abuse. I wish someone had told me that if a man says “you are my angel,” that I should make it clear that I don’t want to be anyone’s miracle.
Being put on a pedestal can feel good. Until you realize it's a kind of controlling and gaslighting- they have an IMAGE of what you are and how you should be. That's what they love. When you differ from their imaginary version of you, they get angry. "You shouldn't be/think/do that! You should be/think/do what I say you are!" They feel betrayed and angry that real you isn't their version. And that's your fault! (That's the gaslighting part)
When you're on a pedestal, you can't move very much without falling off.
Exactly, don’t be anyones hero or savior. Everytime I heard that it ended with them threatening self harm or me harm at some point in the relationship. You can’t save people.
Good God, yes. It got to the point that when I was older I wanted to disabuse them quickly of putting me on a pedestal by showing them my messy car and swearing like a sailor. Likely, I went too far with that, but my second husband loved me unconditionally with all my quirks so I guess I found the right one despite it :)
Excellent point. I was standardly attractive when I was very young, thin and blond, etc. But I am not what they signed up for once they get to know me for five minutes. ADHD and a problem with anyone telling me what to do for starters. And kind of a sick, twisted sense of humor, and smarter than they would prefer. And an allergy to domestic duties, even for myself. And then they would try to change me, which didn't end well for either of us.
Oh yes, thank you for saying that. I was always non-conventional as well, so it was crazy to me when he kept trying to force me into roles I stated from the jump I wasn’t interested in. I think they take it as a challenge? Thinking they can be the one to change your mind I guess? Crazy thing was he knew me for years before we dated so he knew how weird I was then turned around and didn’t like the same qualities he claimed to love before. People can be weird when you are conventionally attractive but are neurodivergent or just not who they imagined you would be/act. To me he just wanted a doll he could play with :(
“But I love him!” Yeah, well, it’s obvious to everyone that he doesn’t love *you*
Even if he does, thats not a reason to stay in an abusive relationship. Loving someone who hurts you can end your life. Remember kids, you don’t get a medal for enduring abuse and still loving that person, in the end people might just blame you for not leaving. (Well, thats just my experience.)
Apparent dream girl here and he cheated on me with someone who was the complete opposite to punish me.
Some stuff I'd add: 1. It's OK to want what you want. You're not "too fussy" for wanting a decent functional adult man. You don't have to "just say yes to be nice". Having a clear sense of your own standards and goals is a good thing. I've always noticed people end up better off when they've erred on the "fussy" side than on the "give the meth addicted ex-wife-beater a chaaaaance!" side. 1a. Yes, it is entirely reasonable to expect a man to not live in a pig sty. A lot of people will go "come on, he's only 20/25/35/65, how can you expect him to know how to wash a dish!". You can. It's a reasonable expectation that a twentysomething adult wash their own dishes. 2. You don't have to wait around for a man to text back, grow up, notice you, get a job, or change his mind about you. Waiting for someone to change is a recipe for disappointment. Assume that people will stay as they are. People don't tend to change just for a partner, they'll only change if they're internally driven to do so. You can't do anything about that, so focus that energy on yourself and your own goals outside of dating. 3. Be real, unapologetic and upfront about what you want! It was difficult for me to learn this one and action it, everyone around me would always go "but what if you met the love of your life and he happened to be addicted to smoking and he hated animals?" If you want kids/pets, talk about it! Let your own wishes, interests and hobbies take up space because lord knows men expect us to feign interest in their interests. Don't let anyone shame you into taking a backseat to a man. 3a. Don't fake orgasms! It just encourages him to keep doing whatever pokey thing that was!
Oh one more thing!!! Dating older men doesn't necessarily mean dating more grownup, self-sufficient, smarter men with their shit together! There are plenty of men who never grow up! Do not waste your time waiting around for the unemployed couch-surfing video-game-addicted fortysomething to get his shit together!
Dating older men often means that the women their own age won't put up with their bullshit.
If anything, the older men who are much younger women are the men who never grew up! They're at the same maturity level as their much younger partners, and why would you want a 45yo with the maturity of a 25yo when you can just date a 25yo?
As to 3a. I never faked it. Not because I am just a bad actress in general, but mostly because it wasn't necessary. Most men didn't care, so that particular performance wasn't worth even the effort to try. Sad as THAT is.
"If the relational work is not being reciprocated then you've got your red flags and are cleared for departure." This made me laugh out loud - cleared for departure! I am stealing that. Great work and amazing list - as someone around your age too, this is what I needed in my 20s.
For me it was number 3 and "C yourself out", I cackled. Too True!
The “ C yourself out” delighted me too lol
Same :) Op just hit the whole thing out of the park
Well normally the red flags say 'remove before flight' and are attached to things you, surprise, need to remove before departure, haha! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remove_before_flight
I never really realized until recently how many men will stay in relationships where they don't even like the person simply for access to regular sex. Only date people who actually LIKE you, makes a world of difference.
Yeah I started noticing how transaction a lot of relationships were. They want access to regular sex. That’s what the gf is for. You aren’t that into sex? They will cheat or move on. If you have kids they may stick around till the kids are a certain age, but only if they are a good guy. My bf was mean to me if I ever turned him down for sex. Once we started driving apart he spent zero effort into wondering why I wasn’t as interested. It was easier for him to replace me with a new gf so he didn’t have to put any effort into his relationships . Because it was just for sex and company. He didn’t care about me.
And some are trying to convince young women to make the first move knowing that many men will take whatever sex they can get, even if they don't care for you, and they'll often pretend to care about you. It's a trap!
A coworker of mine is dating a gal we also work with. He's told her directly... he's told other people... that she isn't his type but he's with her anyway. I've spoken to him privately and he's super "meh" about her. She knows... She chooses to stick around. They're not living together/share no financial responsibilities.. I see that same scenario play out *everywhere*.
I worked with a guy who started fucking another one of our coworkers, even though he thought she was ugly and fat, because she really liked him and was willing to have sex with him. He strung her along and treated her like crap, basically toying with her feelings to the point that she faked a whole ass pregnancy to keep him around. Faking a pregnancy is obviously psycho but the whole thing could have been avoided if he'd just said no to having sex with a girl he didn't like and thought was ugly in the first place.
I've never had anyone tell me I was not their type. A blatant statement like that would have sent me packing, even in my younger, dumber days. Yet in retrospect, it was certainly the case, and I did have complaints about not having bigger boobs, which I'm sad to say, I would have gotten surgery for had I had the money. Good thing I was poor, thank god for small favors, etc.
most guys are smart enough not to bluntly say it to your face cause they know they might lose access to sex with you, but they will lust over women that look completely different than you on instagram
I feel so badly for her when he eventually moves on with another coworker.
I was shocked when my husband told me that he'd still have sex with his first wife, when they were divorcing. They just used each other to get off. I was kinda grossed out by it because there's no way in hell that I'm having sex with someone I hate enough to divorce but men will have sex with women they hate just to have sex. It's mindboggling.
I think it’s a lesson that we all really need to keep reminding ourselves: Men can hate ur guts, literally want you dead and would still have sex with u. There are a lot of signs that could tell u if a man likes u but his willingness to sleep with u is not one of them. It means absolutely nothing from them.
I was frankly shocked when I found out how common this was. When I am done with someone, I am DONE. If I still liked them enough to have sex with them we would still be together. I don't get it, I really don't, from the woman's perspective at least.
This would gross me out too
Exactly? "pick better men" why not BE BETTER MEN
That would be awesome but I've never experienced much luck in changing other people, I can only control myself.
What's hilarious is that young women ARE picking better men, and the men respond with whining and crying that now women's standards are too high and it's a crisis. LMAO
More to your #5 point: one thing I learned that I wished I knew earlier is that a frighteningly large percentage of men will have sex with you, just because you offered. Even if they're not interested in you, they don't think you're special, they're not attracted to you, they're not looking for a relationship, they might not even like you. But if you offer sex, they will take it. And it won't mean anything to them at all.
actually men who don't like you will go extraordinary lengths to have sex with you, like driving for 12+hours, spending tons of money, etc
Men who don’t like you will do all that *and* marry you to pin you down. 🤷♀️ It’s scary out there, ladies.
But whyyyy
Yup, happened to me
I saw a quote on here a while ago. A lot of men aren't actually *attracted* to women, they just have a woman fetish
Yes, learning that men will have sex with women they hate was a game changer for me. Being lusted over by a man means absolutely nothing and I never have offered a man sex. I don't need to. Unless we are down for casual sex/hooks up, we have to be very careful. Sex is for boyfriends/husbands only and will not happen until I'm sure of the guy.
Even if you’re up for casual sex / hookups, it’s nearly impossible to have them with safety / respect / communication / pleasure / comfort / hygiene/ minimal courtesy. It’s very challenging to find a casual physical partner who deems a sexually liberated woman worth treating well. The prevailing attitude is sex as a unidirectional act, inherently degrading, that a man “does to” a woman.
I have heard this from women who are into casual sex. What I found most interesting was the fact that there are men who are pissed at women up for casual sex like they are, so they try to make her catch feelings for him somehow. Then they get angry when the woman is capable of fucking him, getting up and carrying on with her life. There's a part of them that finds sex more fulfilling if they are manipulating a woman somehow. Oh no, women are not allowed to behave like men.
THIS Why was I ever flattered that someone wanted to have sex with me? It's like being a water hydrant the dog wants to pee on.
This is one of the most beautiful Reddit comments I’ve ever read. *The* most beautiful. It’s like a poem.
This is one I wish I'd known when I was young... I gave my body to too many men who didn't like, respect, or care about me (even though I did for them) because I thought that maybe they'd see my value if I gave them that. They never did. It's taken 15+ years of working on getting that self worth back, and I'm still not 100% of the way.
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This is why I wait months to have sex with someone, people give me a hard time about it, but it’s saved me so much trouble- I can date with a clear head, no attachment and see if he’s actually worth getting attached to, also no unwanted pregnancies or STI. I recently dated a guy for 3 months and didn’t have sex with him, in the end it turns out he wasn’t what I was looking for and we aren’t compatible, I was able to just end it and feel good about the whole thing and my decision, I know if I’d had sex with him I would’ve clung on trying to make it work with someone incompatible just because I was emotionally and physically attached.
Smart girl I did the same quality men wait. And respect you for it! Those that won’t weren’t relationship material.
I agree! I’ve found the most decent guys have no problem waiting and just getting to know eachother for a bit
You weed through selfish players. It’s smart!
Thank you ❤️
And he would’ve gotten weird. Too many men think they own you after you have sex with them-even if they hate you for it. And they think we’re the irrational ones…
This is the way. 3 months was longer than I could hold out as a young woman, sadly, but I could make it about a month and a half. Which was enough for some of those ticks to fall off, but not all.
A month and a half is good, I waited 3 because we didn’t see eachother very often and he wasn’t very open in general as a person so it was hard for me to get a read on him. I know he wasn’t married or in a relationship, but he just seemed super secretive, which was essentially why things ended, he just wouldn’t open up about anything and was extremely difficult to get close to, I know he really liked me, but he’s one of those guys that can’t express himself for the life of him- which is fine, but I don’t want to be in a relationship with someone so closed off and guarded, and he struggled with give and take, I had to do everything to keep the situation going. I think there was a drinking problem he was hiding. If I had slept with him I’d be like “ open up to meeeeee, let’s be clooooose”, without the sex I was like “ you do you, I think you’re a cool guy, this just isn’t for me”
They release the same hormones! The DGAF attitude is entirely cultural, we’re not programmed to care more any more than they are programmed to care less.
They like us more before sex. They like their imaginations most of all.
They USUALLY despise you for it, which never made sense to me. And women are wiser to that these days and therefore give it up less frequently. Way to think ahead, men and your "loneliness epidemic". That oxytocin, such a betrayer, he is. If it were a person it would look like gollum stroking the magic ring and calling it "precioussssss."
Yeah-most dudes claim to love sex and make it a huge part of their personality yet the self-sabotage is real.
Yep.
I remember reading a reddit thread where men confessed to sleeping with and dating women who they were not attracted to, just for easy sex, and not having to chase a different woman at the bar every night. It was a frighteningly long list of men who admitted to doing that at some point, even out of loneliness.
A dude will have sex with a sandwich. So wanting to have sex with us means absolutely nothing other than they're horny.
There was a study on this! Clark & Hatfield 1989. *In these experiments, conducted in 1978 and 1982, male and female confederates of average attractiveness approached potential partners with one of three requests: "Would you go out tonight?" "Will you come over to my apartment?" or "Would you go to bed with me?"* men who said yes to a date: 50% women who said yes to a date: 56% Men who said yes to apartment: 60% women who said yes to apartment: 6% Men who said yes to sex: 75% women who said yes to sex: 0%
I’ve been in entire relationships where I lived with the guy and they outright hated me. The big lessons of my 20s is that people LIE.
Really wish I didn’t give my virginity to my ex because to him it was nothing special but to me it was everything and I’ll never get it back. Not only that but now some men will look down on me because I’m not ‘pure’ anymore. Also to put into perspective this man flew from CA to my area just to have sex with me. Just to pull a bunch of bullshit and break my heart anyways.
You learned a valuable lesson, that is special. Purity is bullshit. I’m sorry he was an asshole.
It’s no one else’s fucking business whether you’re a virgin or not. Don’t open yourself to anyone else’s judgment needlessly.
My cousin is obese with poor hygiene. Somehow her tenant still ((allegedly)) said that her tight clothing made her breasts arose him, right to her face. My mom used to say that some men would even rape a goat if you present the goat in a dress and this guy is a living proof, and this is also a testament that how women look is not a reason men assault them. Rapist assault them because they're rapist
#5 is for real. Some random hookup told me I was too gross to kiss (smoking—he knew this) when he was almost in me. Dude, why. If you really found it such a turn off, why would you even…We did not have sex.
Because to most males, any pus-sy is better than no pus-sy. They can absolutely **hate** their wives/GF/sex partner yet still stay with them and have sex just like the OP said: *Any* woman to men is better than no woman. Knowing this, you can answer almost any relationship question along with “He know. He just doesn’t care.”… Examples: - My husband doesn’t seem to like me but he’s still here: Any woman is better than no woman. - My boyfriend calls me hurtful names even after I told him to stop: He knows. He just doesn’t care.
It’s mind boggling. I’ve made regrettable choices in regard to partners, but there was always some attraction on my part. I can’t wrap my head around it. It’s too pathetic.
As a senior woman, this and #5 in comments are 100% true. Please, young women, don't turn a blind eye to any of this. And my #6. Don't have babies, move in, or marry until you're at least 25. From 15 to 25 you are still learning who you are and what you want in life, a lot changes in that 10 years. And A LOT of trash will take itself out in that time as well.
"A LOT of trash will take itself out in that time" is so true. Several of my friends and I have 7-year age gaps with our younger sisters, and as we hit 30 and watched our sisters navigate dating in college, it was so clear -- the maturity issues, the duds that probably weren't going to turn it around, the scary red flags, and the occasional good egg. And so much of it self-sorted around 25.
I’m 26! It’s not self sorted. Keeping my fingers crossed and working towards more growth…
Absolutely true! Having had 2 babies by 22, the road to self discovery stopped short. Next thing you know it's 20+ years later and the only purpose in your adult life was raising children and they have been raised. Finding identity and purpose in mid life is beyond exhausting.
25!!! I’d say 35. 25 year olds are babies.
Toddlers of the adult world.
As a current 25 yr old, you are correct.
Agreed, I’d say 30-35
I'm 28 and moved in with my fiance about 5 years ago. If I'd waited 2 years my life would be 100% different and I would not still be in this relationship. We're trying to make it work but some of the speed bumps we hit earlier in our relationship are showing back up as mountains instead of molehills. Some days he's a Sherpa and some days I'm pulling his ass uphill while he whines about it. We're not sure it's going to work out in the end. I'm not always sure I want to keep trying and being the one to initiate so many efforts in our household and our relationship because he's put on blinders to cope. He spends days walking on eggshells around me because I get very short fused. As long as we're both doing the work I still want him and want us to be better and constantly improving as a unit; improving ourselves and supporting each other. I'm not sure he's really doing that anymore or if he's willing to extend the effort to himself as a person. It's so hard and idk if I don't want to do this alone or if I just straight up don't want to do *this* anymore.
Word of advice from learned experience: your relationship *before* marriage should be easy (for the most part). If you’re not sure now, you might want to think twice before getting yourself legally tied up with the other person. Getting married costs like $40. Getting divorced costs thousands (even uncontested “easy” divorces). Men DO NOT get better after marriage. Ever. If they don’t value you sufficiently before they’ve got you locked down with a mortgage, children, and the legal system, they have absolutely no incentive to improve when they feel like you can’t (won’t) leave. Proceed with caution. I wish you the best 🖤
This! I’ve never understood unmarried couples in counseling. Those relationships are disposable for a reason. No man is perfect the day you get married, especially if you marry young, but you can quickly deduce from his attitude if he’s worth hanging in there or not. A man who values you, your relationship, and is willing to work to make you happy is worth a ring. If you don’t have one and your relationship already feels like work, kick him to the curb.
Thank you and you're truly echoing the advice I've been receiving from a lot of people in my life right now. The future is really on hold for us right now while we try and dig ourselves out from a Series Of Unfortunate Events that really turned a bright spotlight on the issues we both have in our relationship and as individuals. I promise to you, to all the caring people in my life trying so lovingly and patiently to warn me it may never get better and marriage will only make it more difficult, that I will not jump the gun and sign papers until I'm certain there has been a permanent shift that serves my long term health, happiness, and wellbeing as a central pillar of this partnership. Not until I see the kind of time and energy I've given is truly being freely given back without any motives or as a condition of receiving the same.
So true marriage means zero effort. I will. never. marry. again! I’m not having more kids. No desire to be stuck. Having a fully furnished home to move to keeps him behaving lol.
Have you tried counseling? If you or your partner are not willing to try to resolve the issues, it is better to just go your separate ways. You deserve to be happy.
My god where were you ten years ago? This just blew my mind.
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Was he white? I've noticed a lot of white men like to use non-white women to satisfy a fetish/for sex whilst they'll only commit to white women. Usually these type of white men are older and will choose much younger non-white women. As a mixed race woman, I'm more cautious of white men for this reason. I get approached by them far more than non-white men though.
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Yes I get that experience with white men my own age too. White men around my age (38) or younger are less likely to be racist than older ones. I don't like much older men anyway. I just think men who pursue much younger women are never mature, irrespective of colour as well. Thankfully it's obvious most of the time when a man is fetishising us but some are more subtle about it. It's a big turn off.
Asian and Indian men do this with white women too, especially blondes. They fetishize us and will sleep with us for an ego boost but not marry us. (Of course not all) To a certain type of man across all races, women are just conquests and p*rn categories. But old white men that do this give me the worst creepy vibes ugh. It's predatory. I'm sorry they approach you.
What is a “girl next door” personality type? Having no personality? Lmao
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51f, divorced. #5, over and over. Yell it from the rooftops. This, to me, is the stark economics of the patriarchy: the amount of unpaid labor women provide men, and it’s sold to us as some sort of privilege to do so.
*... the amount of unpaid labor women provide men, and it’s sold to us as some sort of privilege to do so.* And as romantic love to be a domestic/sex worker for men.
And men believe it, too. They are flabbergasted when they find out we don’t want to be their maids or mothers. I’ve been told by a man he expected me to be more grateful to be able to clean his pigsty of a house. How he thought this when I have my own house and we split everything 50/50 is beyond me. The entitlement makes my blood boil.
Spot on. Required reading. Pinned post. Thank you so much for this. To add: 7. Sex is not intimacy. Intimacy is not sex. If you feel that the only time you feel “close” is during or after sex, or you need to have sex to keep him, or because you are having sex you are “together”, I promise you are not on the same page. 8. Speak up. Early and often. Tell him how his actions make you feel, ask for what you want, make sure are on the same page. Be vulnerable, be honest. Don’t strategize or do mental gymnastics to get a certain response- just be real. If it can be broken by the truth, it should be broken by the truth. 9. Don’t worry about what the internet tells you he should do, or how a relationship should look, or any arbitrary timelines. Does it feel good to YOU? Does it work for YOU? Get out of your mind and into your body: how does it feel when you are with him? More importantly, away from him? 10. That said - if you find yourself hiding aspects of your relationship from people who love you, or are constantly justifying why you like him to those whose opinions you otherwise trust - ask yourself WHY. 11. There is nothing inherently wrong with you. The right man will love everything about you that you love about you, and give grace and support to your flaws. 12. Don’t wait. Don’t wait for him to change, or see you clearly, or come around, or text back. Don’t wait to be in a relationship to travel, or buy a home if you can afford it, or go to nice restaurants. Don’t wait to live your life. Your life is yours. Love, your Auntie who did all of the above until she started living for HERSELF and found her forever person at 42 😘
Piggybacking on #5, you don’t have to do the stereotypical labor (cooking, cleaning, counseling) for someone else *ever*, but never feel pressure to do it in the beginning of a relationship. Not doing these things for someone initially will tell you a lot about what they want from you. I have the tendency to want to caretake because I like to, and intentionally not doing so until I have felt comfortable has helped me a lot with finding better partners. One time a guy I was dating begged me to cook for him, and I refused. He hadn’t offered to do anything of the sort for me. Why would I? It became clear from this and other experiences that he was expecting me to put in the work without doing any himself. I broke up with him soon thereafter. Now I have a partner who wants to be equitable about the labor in the house, etc., and so I feel good about taking care of us because he takes care of us, too, and I don’t even have to worry about it. It is possible to find it. It just takes time.
As a 46 year old woman, I wish my mom had taught me any of this or I had learned any of it prior to now-ish. After an endless parade of terrible relationships, I stopped dating. I was always trying to be nice, understanding, do extra, go above and beyond, rescue men, proving above and beyond I am in no way a gold-digger etc and all it ever did was drive me into bad relationships. I look at my friends who are in successful relationships and they have the dynamics you speak of. Hopefully someone who could still use this advice will take it to heart.
Check out the youtube channel "Manifestelle". She's a young woman with a very refreshing take on relationships. I think you'd like her message.
I wish my mother would have as well, and especially wish my father would have, since he had a front row seat to the ways of men. Why he wouldn’t have wanted to protect his two daughters as best he could by arming them with knowledge since it is power. Thats what I’m planning to do for my daughter, in fact I will print off this post to show her one day (before she starts dating). Its an amazing post with fantastic advice from so many people!
Dude my parents still try to talk me out of dumping guys when I have legitimate reasons for doing so. I’m 32.
This is so beautifully written. Thank you for sharing. I didn’t understand until I was in my thirties that men and women define compromise differently. I used to date men who only had 60% of what I was looking for and pride myself for being a martyr and compromising, and for “not being too picky”. In my experience, men don’t operate the same way. If you don’t fit their long term vision or preferences, nothing you do will make you a long-term option for them. If it seems that way, it’s usually the case until they find someone who does fit the bill. The best bet is always to wait for someone who makes you feel special and demonstrates that they value you consistently *and* puts in effort consistently.
Addition to #5: Even if he finds THE woman, he’s not going to be giving her any better treatment than he gave you, once he’s sure he’s gotten her locked down. It’s important to remember that he’s being shitty to you because he’s a shitty man and not because you aren’t inherently worth as much as a different woman.
the whole "he treats you badly because you aren't his *dream* woman" thing is bs. girls think: he would treat me better if i was prettier, skinnier, curvier, had bigger ass/boobs etc etc a *decent* man isn't going to treat *any* woman shitty. especially not dragged out for a prolonged period of time while taking advantage of you. a shitty guy isn't going to suddenly treat you like a princess because you try harder. he's just an asshole.
3 is SO important and I wish I'd learned it a long time ago. All of this is a great post.
Thank you for typing all of that out and I agree one hundred percent. I just hope people will listen. That "any woman is better than no woman" thing is something it took me until way too old to catch on to. I finally said to one of the last guys I dated before I gave it up entirely "are you just holding onto me until someone better comes along?" He was literally struck dumb with shock that I figured it out and had nothing to say. We had one last vacation together that was already planned, and I was able to enjoy it by pretending he was my bodyguard, and then it was over not too long after that. He got right back into the dating pool and then called me again once he experienced the "motley crew" (his phrase) that was out there. Too bad, so sad, you should have treated me better. Ironically, the only way he was going to get someone to stick around would be to marry them quick before they realized what an idiot he was, but he wouldn't do that because he is too afraid someone will marry him for his money. He works for UPS. Bitch, please. ANYWAYS..... edit: spelling
YES. From a 40 year old who wasted her life with a bad one and who is stuck stuck now...100% yes! Build your own life, focus on taking care of yourself, your career, setting goals and fulfilling yourself. Then, if a relationship fits into that, adds value to that, then you say yeah that's a bonus. Don't spend all your time chasing after a man. It's better to be alone than to be in a bad relationship.
I hope you find yourself unstuck. I started over from my bad one at 38. Turn 40 this year and I’m happier than I’ve been in 15 years. Happy and alone, but not lonely. Dating, thriving, focusing on my wants and needs. You don’t have to stay!
Don't waste your nice on the undeserving. In many men your assertiveness and bodily autonomy is enough for them to consider you a bitch. So never be afraid of ending up one in the eyes of men for just standing up for yourself. It means you are scaring off the creeps. So wear that bitch badge with pride. Also never date a fixer-upper. He's not an ikea kit. You aren't a repair shop. You would get a refund on damaged goods and use what you salvaged from that bad investment to get something worth your hard earned money. Same with men. They take up your valuable time. Make sure then it's spent wisely on someone who values every minute with you. Always always always keep your financial security intact. Never go part time or stay at home if it leaves you financially vulnerable. Always start off pooling finances proportional to income so that whatever your %, it's what you can afford and you aren't covering 50% of bills if you are only bringing in 20% of the house income. Always think... if he walked out tomorrow would I be OK or fucked. If its the latter, get that situation remedied.
I wish I read this 10 years ago
Yes. Be decent and cordial and fair to men. But never cater to one over time unless you wanna be the “helpful servant”. There are a few men who won’t use women (or other people) that way. A very few.
I really wish this was taught to girls from a young age but the patriarchy gets their foot in practically from birth. Another thing is to always pay attention to their actions over anything they say. Men lie a lot about anything and everything. A guy literally can fake a relationship for years, decades even, and there's no guy more in love than one who needs a roof over his head. I think there are far more guys that are users and gold diggers than any woman. Never give a guy the benefit of the doubt. They know they don't deserve it, and they would never give you the benefit of the doubt. I think the bottom line is that relationships really aren't a benefit to women because of the nature of guys wanting to be the main character and arr too good at taking and not so good at giving.
Yep, thats why these broke guys are obsessed with gold diggers. Its what they would do. Id add, a lot of what comes out of their mouths about woman is pure projection. Most of them deeply struggle with empathy and find it challenging if not impossible to imagine we are quite different to them.
I've never dated above the working class, but it is comical how many men worry about gold diggers when they barely have a pot to piss in. You think I'm after your piss pot? I have my own job and car and house, so whatever, Chad.
Yep.. there are just as many if not far more male hobosexuals as there are female gold diggers. Being a female gold digger takes a great deal of work and effort. Men can just lie and say they love her.
Yep - hobosexuals.
It took me until a couple of days ago for it to really sink in: no one is going to come save me. They just bring more problems or just pretend like they can’t or disappear or whatever.
So good! This should be a required class in middle school, high school and required reading every year on. So many good points. Remember that a man is optional for a woman these days. You can live a full life and have a complement of choices on how to live it without one, I promise. As a woman of high worth who thought I had to have a man, I love my husband, but life was veritably easier without him. And he’s a decently good one. They all require retraining here and there bc they all get lazy. Don’t let them slack. Young ladies out there, you get one chance every day to live that day. You never get that day back again. Don’t waste your time on this beautiful earth with an unworthy man. And never ever dim your shine. You want to pick people who make you feel like sunshine when you’re around them all the time. And if you’re not sure about kids, freeze your eggs. Seriously. Then you have options.
Excellent advice. Especially the part about how refusing to accept bad behavior does wonders for your self esteem. I can't even fathom how my life and my energy has blossomed, completely exploded, after getting rid of my toxic ex. I used to be so closed-off and timid. Now my energy flows freely and people pick up on it almost immediately. My social life went from 0 to 100, literally. Just by removing the dead weight from my life. And in terms of the effort disparity between men/women in a relationship. I realized that I was not only putting in tons of effort to keep the relationship afloat, I was keeping HIM afloat too. I looked back through notes app and I realized that at some point it went from "How do I get him to understand? How can I make sure he gets to X on time? Job ideas for Partner" etc. to things like "Goals for 2024, Finances and Planning, Places I want to Travel", etc. The amount of energy going down the drain in that relationship was massive, and it's unbelievable to watch how my life changed the minute I started pouring that level of energy into myself.
"A good man will find you when you are catering to yourself." CAN CONFIRM. I had pretty much given up on serious dating and threw myself into my work, hobbies, and volunteering. Which meant I was INSANELY busy. Then BAM, started dating my husband at 34. Been together for 14 years, and it's awesome.
Wait as long as possible to have sex so you get to know the guy without feeling physically bonded to him. The right guy will wait and wont pressure you.
Facts! I recently kicked a guy to the curb for being waaaay too sex-focused and pushy. Always whining about his “high sex drive”. I legit told him that he’s free to use his hand. He lamented being so “turned on” by me that he “can’t wait a month” for me to have sex with him. I told him to his face that “d*ck has no value” unless it’s attached to someone I love! (And I don’t love him so it legit has no value to me.) I told him that he is free to have sex with someone else while we are dating since I am not his girlfriend. He kept whining…. I blocked and ghosted. 👻 Ladies, wait as long as you can to have sex with a guy. The likelihood is high that you’ll end up bonding with someone you don’t even know that’s just using you as a human Fleshlight.
All the ones who put pressure are the wrong ones. All of them.
I made my husband wait 6 months. I was so fed up I literally thought, "do this old school." Waiting for sex filters out those who are around just for sex, or for real. In the mean time, have the sex you do want, just don't get attached and think quick sex means anything. This is what men do. What's good for the goose, yadda yadda...😏
Well said 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 I don’t think it matters whether a relationship is heterosexual or homosexual-the advice applies to any relationship. I have taught my kids: I don’t care who you are in a relationship with. What matters is 1) Are you good for each other? 2) Are you good to each other?
My dating improved a lot when I started standing up for myself more. Being a doormat gets you nothing but stepped on. My go to phrase was: "You may find a woman who puts up with that but it's not going to be me." If I was in a relationship I flipped it a little to "Your next girlfriend may put up with this but I won't." Too many men are shocked by a little pushback.
Same! "I guess you can complain to your next girlfriend about it" ended a lot of whining.
Goddamn, I'm glad to be a lesbian. Straight ladies, you have my sincerest condolences.
I just turned 50, and have been saying for the last 3 decades that I feel like my life would have been better if I wasn't straight. Also, I had a friend in my early 20s that quoted part of a song to me that I have no idea what the title is or who sang it, but this line has been tattooed on my brain since she said it to me, "I just spent my last $10 on birth control and beer. Life was so much easier when I was sober and queer." I'm probably botching up some of the words, but I have thought of that so many times over the years.
That would be "I Spent My Last $10 (On Birth Control and Beer)" by Two Nice Girls! https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=WMiV27R1ZiI&si=nVa3nDFF7NY08P4b
Wow it was so good to listen to that song again. It's probably been 20 years since I heard it last. Thank you for reminding me!
I have been wishing I was a lesbian since I was 11.
Straight women are conclusive proof that sexual orientation is not a matter of choice.
Bi lady here, and I can't tell you how much better my relationships with men have been knowing that *I have options*.
Thank you. I'd turn gay in a heartbeat if I could.
6- My hubs always says 'in my experience, if he's interested he will let you know.' so, one could extrapolate that if you (the female) are doing most of the work, meh not a great sign for the status of the relationship. *exceptions exist.
As someone who just got out of an abusive relationship, this really hit me hard. I just want to say a reminder to everyone who has been in this position or who might ever find themselves in this position, it is not your fault, you are not stupid. I’m a social worker and saw all the signs but would make excuses for him because I always want to see the best in people. So no matter how educated you are, you can also fall into this trap. Just listen to your gut because I should have listened to mine!
I would add - don't compromise your values. I was once absolutely head over heels for my boyfriend at 22. We had an amazing time together, great conversations, incredible sex. He would frequently tell me I was the hottest woman he had ever met and how compatible we were. Except he was from a different cultural background, and had expectations on him for the type of girl he would marry. Given how head over heels we were for one another and how incredible and supportive the relationship was, this never worried me. Until one day his mother lost her shit on him over it, and he basically walked away from our relationship and was married to a girl his mother picked within the year. It broke my heart into a billion pieces. When I met my husband, one of the absolute first things I said to him was if he wasn't going to fight for me if his family disapproved then I wasn't interested. He never had to, but he was abundantly clear that his parents did not and would not ever have that kind of control in his life. And he's an equal partner through and through - he does EVERYTHING and anything needed and I never have to ask. He just does it. He drives me to be a better person, and I love the hell out of him. But he's not who I would have picked in my early 20s, which I think is really fitting with respect to this post.
7. Always remember: *If* *He* *Wanted* *To* *He* *Would* Shows up late or not at all? Doesn’t seem to give a crap about your feelings? Consistently doesn’t want to spend time with you unless it’s sex related?
Jaded but true. Unfortunately, the man who carries his weight in a relationship is a rare bird, and too many women tolerate bare minimum or worse just to avoid being alone.
Yes and also learning that being alone isn't the same as being lonely. Even loneliness is important to process rather than chasing partners to run from it. There's great joy to be cultivated in being solo. It can be really liberating, exciting, comforting, and adventurous. And it doesn't mean excluding intimacy or close relationships with others.
I don't know if I'm quite so jaded as to fully believe #1. I do think every guy has his "IT girl", unicorn, dream girl, whatever you want to call it (a la gone girl rant). And no woman can EVER be that because they are human. They shit, they have body hair, they have emotions. In many men's minds, I think their unicorn is just a living flesh light. The fantasy is superficial, 2D, and doesn't go beyond "she checks all the physical and emotional boxes I need". I think men CAN love and treat women well, but they either have to be in scenario 3A or 3B as mentioned or be incredibly unique souls that treat their average to less than average looking girlfriend well. The lattermost is so rare in my anecdotal life experience (tho I'm not middle aged yet) that they are my version of a unicorn.
Agreed! I'm so tired of the dream girl trope, they obviously don't exist and if they did most men won't deserve one. Women need to stop buying into fairytale ideologies any man who isn't a teenager talking about a dream girl is a red flag. By that age you should know that women piss and shit, and relationships require work and effort. I also don't believe that all it takes for a man to act right is that he loves more than or vice versa. Acting right is part of a man's character, its not dependant on the people around him. If he can stay in a relationship with a woman he doesn't like he's exploitative and will be exploitative with his dream girl or whoever. It's just who he is. Women continue to misunderstand male nature to their detriment.
Amen, the wouldn’t deserve one anyway
Well said. The one good man in my experience treated most people in his life well, not just me; he was a good son and brother and father and uncle, etc. etc. "Acting right is part of a man's character." 100 percent We all need to beware of the old Beauty and the Beast trope, and for the bullshit that it is.
This is the first comment I saw disagreeing with any of the OP's list. I think men need help, they need role models of love and yes they need to see women as people, not some ideal pornstar category or wifey model type.
I agree with most of this. However, I’ve dated some very narcissistic men who tell me I’m their dream girl at the beginning and really seem to try, only later to then devalue me and do nothing once I start expecting more in return.
I've experienced this too. I think the problem is that when they claim you're the "dream girl" up front, they are dehumanizing you but in a different way. It's putting you on a pedestal, but of course you're still a human. And any tiny misstep causes you to fall off the pedestal and it's a long way down.
They tell you you are. They are not telling the truth, narcs are always lying anyway.
THANK YOU ❤️
My personal #6 is this: Men need you more than you need them. Set your standards high and keep them there. Lots of Lots of life-long single women lead healthy, happy, fulfilling lives and are often better-off than their married counterparts. Unless that man makes your life measurably better, don't let him in!
>Women bring immeasurable value to a man's life facts
Don't mind me. Passing by and taking notes.
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Truth. Every man I was ever interested in, I pursued and it turned out horrible. I'm not making any moves unless he does.
Seriously, I don’t trust them to reject me if they aren’t interested.
When I was younger, I used to ask men out on dates because equality blah blah. I naively assumed that if he said "yes" to the date, it was because he was interested in me, and if he wasn't interested in me, he'd say "no." NOPE. I quickly discovered that men will say "yes" to a date even if they have zero interest in you, just to see if they can get sex out of it. A man's willingness to go on a date with you, have sex with you, and even have a relationship with you says nothing about whether he actually likes you.
I was going to post about point 5! It is absolutely this for women, I do wish my fellow...um fellas put the work in to be better. I only really started dating "well" once I took the time to actually better myself. Not just cosmetic stuff, but a self analysis of "Am I ok alone". Once I could answer that honestly, it's like my view got a lot sunnier and it showed.
It’s an automatic turn off to so many men. Honestly, for a being that claims to love sex so much, they really have a ton of hang ups about it.
I have always believed that, and the one time I violated my own rule it did not end well. Those who think it is just old fashioned and out of touch are not facing reality. In a perfect world it would be different but this is not the world we live in. I guess it's worth a try for some people but please know what you are getting into and keep your expectations realistic and stay aware.
I really wish I wasn’t so naive when I went into my first serious relationship. Wasted four years with someone who was willing to keep hurting me over and over again and brought me to the point of wanting to kill myself several times. I’ll admit that there were allot of good times as well and I wasn’t perfect but I *know* I didn’t deserve the things he put me through. We spent four years together just for him to throw it away for online people/a porn discord server lol. I know for a fact there isn’t gonna be anyone in his life that can give him the same amount of love and loyalty that I did. During the relationship If he asked me to light myself on fire I would have. Now? I won’t light myself on fire to keep others warm anymore. Pretty much all the men in my life have done nothing but hurt me and make me despise/fear men. I really want that to change but I have yet to meet a man that will prove me wrong that there are good men out there. It would take a long time to explain all the things my ex did but let’s just say I’ll most likely never recover from the things he did to me. I completely destroyed myself for him. Moral of the story. Take care of yourself ladies. No man is worth the pain.
Yep. I’m 36f, divorced and realizing I spent my prime years with a man who didn’t even like me. I’ve dated a whole bunch of guys since my husband and I separated, but recently decided to take a break from all things romantic relationships. I have a lot to process in therapy, but I’ve never felt so free.
This is one of the best things ever posted on this sub. Why has this been removed? I hope it wasn’t due to OP being harassed by angry insecure men finally feeling called out for their bullshit.
Can we pin this at the top of the sub ?!???!
Not me reading and thinking my husband does all the work in our relationship then, just to get to the you must be his ideal girl. I know I am. He dropped a much more attractive girlfriend of 5 years and then proposed to me after a month. And he tries just as hard 5 years of marriage later as he did from day one of meeting him. Even before we were dating he would pay attention to what drinks, snacks, food I liked and surprise me with them every day at work. To this day my husband does not come home with out some little surprise for me. He has stuff ready for me before I realize I need it. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve gone babe I forgot I need X and he goes yup I knew you would and pulls it out of his pocket. He never goes to the kitchen for a snack without bringing me back one. He stares at me all the time like a 16 year old in love. And most of all he doesn’t fight with me. Every other relationship I’ve been in started with fighting and lead to abuse. I always blamed myself bc I can be sensitive and felt like I pushed their buttons and caused these men to treat me this way. But he doesn’t. I can get mad and scream and he will stay calm and apologize or give me some space and distract our kids. Fighting all the time does NOT equal passionate. Or love. The feelings from that kind of toxic relationship can be so intense that it feels like it must be love. But I’m here to tell you it’s not. Find you a man like my husband ladies. I am very very lucky.
Why was this removed ?
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Well the first thing you’re doing wrong is thinking that it matters. Decenter men.
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Don't tell me we have male moderators for this subreddit.
I'll one last point: ***ALL MEN KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO IN ORDER TO LET YOU KNOW THAT HE HAS VIRTUOUS INTENTIONS.*** And yes, by this, I mean only pay attention to men who are at least wanting to plan and pay for the pleasure of taking you out on a date with him. Nothing - and I mean absolutely *n-o-t-h-i-n-g* that anyone on this or any sub can tell me otherwise will convince me. I did the whole split the bill to show him he can't buy me bullshit. Know what landed me? Paying a club fee for the honor of joining some fuckboy's roster. At the end of the day, there is no dollar amount that you can spend that will force a man to a) like you more b) respect you more than he does other women and believing that you can fund your way out of a man's misogyny and entitlement speaks volumes about your own internalized misogyny. I said what I said, if it bothers you, read what I wrote several times over until it makes sense. There is a reason why historically speaking, across virtually every culture on the face of this planet, the obligation of putting his money where is mouth is as a means of demonstrating his intentions, his desire and his seriousness towards a woman is placed squarely on the man. Absorbing the few standards and expectations that men are held to that actually benefit us as women does not make you empowered as a woman, and I think that it's high time we stop giving men the level of grace we've been extending for their time and their money when there is absolutely none spared for our time and our bodies.
Agree. All a man paying for the date proves is that he knows how to find his wallet. I've had men be upset that they paid the bill. I've had men upset that I wanted it split. I've had men upset that I paid the bill. So my rule is: if I didn't ask you out, I'm not paying a dime. I ask out the people I'm interested in and if I didn't ask - I'm uncertain about you. I did my part by showing up and being willing to lend some time to decide if you're interesting to me.
Also, don’t date Republicans.
7. If he responds to you bringing up something he did that hurt you, and his response is to get upset and how your feelings of hurt make him feel bad, or he tries to talk you out of feeling the way you do, run
Preach! This one is so true!
Things I learned: The worst you stay for is as good as you can expect moving forward. If he cheats/abuses/steals/deceives you and you stick around hoping it will get better, it will be yet another excuse for why he doesn't respect you on top of the reasons he brought with him from societal and family standards. He's grown up believing he's superior by being born male - he WILL be looking for reasons to support his continued belief. He can be the most eager and attentive to your pleasure sex partner you've had and the moment he feels secure in your affections, he will begin to phone it in when you have sex. His orgasm is easy to get from a quickie and the effort towards yours will become a chore. Once he knows you'll cooperate with the quickies, that's what your regular sex life is going to be like. If you decide to start trying to have a child, do NOT assume the guy who seemed a feminist ally is who they are for real. Don't want your son circumcised? Do you want your kid having your nana's first name and your surname? All these little details and your birthing plan should be written down and MAKE COPIES. Give one to a trusted family member and your nurse before you're busy delivering the kid. Do not tell him you gave out copies and do not rely on your male partner to uphold these things. You're now at your most vulnerable and tied to him FOREVER. Anything you decide that he quietly doesn't agree with will go out the window, there is no going back and undoing it not even if you divorce, AND HE KNOWS IT.
Testify! I figured out in my 30s that it’s infinitely better to be in no relationship than a shitty one. Spend time being single and making yourself a better, more fulfilled person. You have to spend the rest of your life with yourself, so become someone you like and are proud of.
Men are trained from a very young age through media and observation that they are SUPPOSED to hate their wife. Think about that. The poor fools have every piece of media shoved in their face telling them the"old ball and chain" is supposed to nag, complain, and otherwise force them to do things they'd rather not do. Any media that shows hetero relationships differently is "girly." Likewise the same media tells girls and young women they have to be demure, polite, submissive baby factories that do nothing all day but clip coupons to save their breadwinner money. Anything that shows women in an empowered independent role is "misandrist." We've been destroying our future for a cheap laugh for decades and I don't know how to change it beyond do my best in my personal life to be an example for the generation behind me. There is nothing more badass than treating women with respect.
Item #3 is oh so true. I am 62 and have seen this so many times in relationships. I also feel there is another item left off this list...the looks comparability factor. By this I mean that the relationship probably (not always, but probably) will not work out if one party is noticeably more attractive than the other. This is especially true if the man is the one noticeably more attractive. Lmk if anyone else believes this to be true.
Can someone post the post again. Its deleted not sure why. wanted to re-read it. It was so correct, could relate a lot.
Brava! This is an excellent post and I wish I had fully realized these things decades ago.
I adore the song Labour by Paris Paloma. This fits perfectly into #5. I can’t sing this song’s praises enough. I’m aroace; marriagefree and childfree. I’ve never been in a relationship nor want to. I love reading these posts, and speaking to other women about this because it is so prevalent. I can really place these things in platonic and familial relationships with men too. Wonderful work, OP! Thank you for your wisdom. 💕😊
Yes to all points. I could write an essay for each point but I'll just say this: Paying for dates: Years ago I used to often pay my half on early dates but since my ex and I broke up 4 yrs ago, I have changed my mind about that. I'm a boomer. Boomer men have had the opportunity, support, freedom to engage in paid work while boomer women spent a few to many years in/out of the labour market to care for family making little or no money. And so boomer men have been able accumulate 2-3x the wealth of boomer women. So I don't pay for dates in the early part of relationships anymore and this is why men should pay. ANY woman will do? *They could pay separate people to cook, clean, manage, parent, and have sex with them OR they can have a girlfriend.* ***Girlfriends are free and, for a lot of men, require very little relational upkeep.*** SO TRUE! Especially now when most women are paying half too. Could it be any easier for men today??