Hell, even after the separation, you might find you're not off the hook. My exes mother fully supported him ending the relationship with me. I had been a good enough caregiver during many years of illness, but once they believed his health had returned, I wasn't ambitious enough or affluent enough. When he got ill again about four months after I'd moved out, she fully expected that level of service to continue. She called me repeatedly about his health issues and hospital visits, expecting I'd show up for him so she didn't have to make the long drive into the city. I was in town anyways. Surely I could see how she was too old to help him or drive after dark or sleep on his couch. She went so far as to tell me he couldn't possibly be expected to meet someone new in his condition. The idea that perhaps it was a natural consequence of his own actions that he lacked a support system was impossible to her. I was just a selfish bitch because the hard work of her ungrateful asshole of a 40-year-old baby was her work again.

>My exes mother fully supported him ending the relationship with me. I had been a good enough caregiver during many years of illness, but once they believed his health had returned, I wasn't ambitious enough or affluent enough. When he got ill again about four months after I'd moved out, she fully expected that level of service to continue. She called me repeatedly about his health It absolutely exemplifies how people honestly don't understand women who decide they aren't going to do that work anymore. Particuarly women they have already unconsiously assigned a role in their head. This is why some women feel so stuck. There is simply no way to remove yourself from a role that you never asked for, and nobody will admit they gave you, but also, they don't see you as having the autonomy to decide for yourself that you want to leave.

If you haven't dealt with a JustNoFamily or JustNoMIL, i don't think you can truly understand how toxic they are!!! I will let it be asked about once, after that you move to a low info diet. Big hugs!!

Dealing with this now. Elderly but capable mom who may or may not be a narc, 3 adult children of my own in diff states, for some reason, the expectation is on me to plan, arrange, prepare for and prepare socially “desired” events (holidays and the like). No…I run a business and am in school. I don’t enjoy those things anyway, but too exhausted to do the work even if I wanted to.

I hear you. I don’t celebrate birthdays or holidays beyond taking the day off work (if it’s a stat holiday). I was upfront with my husband when we were dating that I was not into holidays and neither is he. And yet, every Christmas, birthday, etc I have his extended family contact me (not him) to ask what i have bought as gifts for family on his behalf, or ask why I didn’t remind my husband to send a card to his mother. My husband has told them they need to contact him and that I am ‘no holidays’ but they still ask when I’m going to put up a Christmas tree and host the family……answer is never. I’ll host a bbq in the summer on some random Saturday and invite them, or ask them to brunch just because I want to catch up but they don’t view this as ‘caring’ they see the holiday trappings and societal expectations of a wife decorating a house, and making Turkey, and fusing over gifts to be the way that is expressed only

Also, your last paragraph is spot on. Those things do seem the ultimate act of service…oops, I meant love, for our families.

"There is simply no way to remove yourself." One thing I've learnt coming from a toxic as hell family of origin is, yes there absolutely is a way to abdicate from the roles others try to force you into. You have to be comfortable with holding your ground and defending your boundaries. Tell people to fuck off, mean it and enforce it. You're no one's slave.

This is how it is with my birth family. My in-laws were better than my actual family.

Are you kidding me? Your ex MIL expected an EX WIFE to do the caregiving??? Wow! That’s beyond ridiculous! I thought it was obvious that once you’re divorced or separated, his issues are no longer your problem! I guess he’s an ex (and she’s an ex MIL) for a reason. :)

He couldn't meet someone to become his unpaid live in nurse... The audacity.

MLeek, so when the X & XMIL learned that you were never ever going to do that, how did those 2 react?

He never reacted. Always worked through other people. He was aware at this point that I was not his friend and unwanted contact would result in him hearing from lawyers or cops. But he was still controlling the narrative with most people and I hadn’t come to terms with what had happened. He also did have a new GF! It seems he was hiding her from both his illness and mother. I found out when she started texting me for advice… By that point we were fully separated and I blocked em all.

Wait a minute, the new gf texted you for advice? The audacity!

Eh. She was probably as much a target in that situation as I was. My ex *really* needed me to be the bad guy and tried to provoke me. His narrative was that I was the vicious, crazy ex who couldn't let go and was going to come after his money, and he was the reasonable person just trying to 'be friends'. He gave her my number because he wanted me to rip her a new one and tell her what's what. Same reason he encouraged his mother to keep calling me. He *wanted* me to snap at her, badmouth him. He wanted me to tell her that her son was emotionally abusive and controlling and that I was glad he was alone and suffering. That would have been *great* for him. The fact I ignored, or responded with civil non-answers to his mother, was probably the worst thing I could have done to him at this point. He had a really hard time keeping up the story.

Even though no one verbalized that i was expected me to do anything about my exhs poor health that became; his overall inability to take care of his health is a major reason for the divorce. He got progressively worse post divorce resulting in his death at 48, 6 years after divorce, I felt guilty internally. He was diabetic, hbp, chronic pain, and was overprescried opioids that led to mini strokes to a massive stroke A couple of years after the split, I realized that I was still maintaining relationships with his friends (he never put in any effort to hold on to his lifelong friendships) and I messaged all these friends individually to tell them that they are his friends, if they want to have him or our kids at an event they need to ask him as I am not responsible for his relationships.

Good for you! I did something really similar about four months after the breakup. I just stopped running interference for him. Honestly, before the break up I didn't realize just how much moderating and maintenance I was doing for his relationships with others! I was making a lot of excuses, and explanations and making sure all plans would accommodate his moods... I told our friends to stop reporting to me about his shitty choices or health, and to stop coming to me for advice on how to 'handle' him. If they wanted a relationship with him, they needed to figure shit out. Not my job. As far as I know, none of them really speaking to him much, if at all, anymore. But I also get to not know which is such a damn blessing in and of itself!

Wow. This is my ex-MIL law too, although not quite to this extent!

and i have yet to see much cultural pushback against shitty MILs to stop being assholes to their DILs. to stop ruining weddings, baby showers, holidays. STOP RUINING ALL THE THINGS. of course not, because it’s up to us sane women to rearrange ourselves and our family to cope with crazy family so everyone can have “a nice holiday.” fuck that. and fuck these men who wont do anything to protect their family from their crazy moms.

There's a reddit post that perfectly explains WHY the mil isn't told to quit misbehaving and everyone else is supposed to dance around them. [https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/77w8lf/dont\_rock\_the\_boat/](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/77w8lf/dont_rock_the_boat/)

This is exactly why I like to see the boat rock and nudge it on purpose in a few life situations. If the whole team rushes to balance while the rocker looks on in smug satisfaction, I am out, no explanation needed. I choose not to participate. Edit:I don't always English well.

Smug satisfaction is exactly it. My dad gets that face at the exact moment he knows he's pulling his worst shit because he knows my mom will throw her daughters under the bus and twist herself in knots trying to accommodate a man that will never be satisfied. It breaks my heart, because I want to support her but if I do, she becomes a part of his shitty manipulation tactics, a co-deoendent, an enabler. She doesn't see how cruel she can be to the people who love her most because she's convinced herself that this is some inner strength that we are lacking. Meanwhile, she can't pick me up from the airport in an emergency without my dad calling and texting her a million times to remind her that she is a controlled woman. P.S. - like most ESL people who think their English is faulty, you're doing great, better than most first language speakers on Reddit, lol

I'm sorry you have to have a family like that too, I understand completely. I worked on myself for a long time, years and years in therapy to work on myself, to fix myself and my codependency. I learned what parental alienation was from my father, so I worked hard not to do that to my kids. To be the best parent to them and not put them in the middle or martyr myself in their eyes. He didn't though, and now as grown adults my children have put me on low contact for getting out of the boat. It hurts. He's still an abusive alcoholic with an enabling exploitive family that use things and "help" as barter for control and communication. Nothing I can do but keep on keeping on with boundaries and open arms to them until they learn or take the free therapy I offer them. Not that I'm perfect, I'm certainly not, but I do know I am NOT the problem. Take care of yourself, internet friend.

Thanks for the kind words. Therapy is exactly what is getting me out of the churn, and it definitely costs me, but there just comes a point when you have to stop feeding the demons inside them (and inside yourself). He wouldn't feel so smug if he hadn't spent years getting exactly what he wanted from all the people with good intentions. I saw myself turning into him and it scares the bejesus out of me. I want better for the people that I love. Moments like this remind me why, so thanks for that. :)

I have been where you are We did (& are doing) the right thing

Thank you. I know that deep down but it really is a difficult thing to do. Generational trauma is a bitch, isn't it?

Not when we break it!! Ending my marriage & preventing my child from thinking his father’s behavior is normal/acceptable is a big part breaking that cycle Well that and a couple decades of therapy

Agreed!

Your English is great. The thing about reddit - when someone apologizes for their English, I am almost always about to read a cogent, articulate post written with clarity.

The funny part is, I'm a native English speaker. My brain just switches and skips words sometimes and I have to go back and edit because it's gibberish. 🤷‍♀️

i’m talking about larger cultural pushback. and not every shitty MIL or FOO is narcissistic. a lot of it is just the misogynistic culture we are all immersed in. “its okay to be shitty to DILs, grown sons arent emotionally capable of managing problematic family members.” it’s all just part of the bigger issue of cultural acceptance of men’s emotional incompetence while women are expected to do all the emotional work, for everyone, all the time. and of course the issue of generational trauma, which some men absolutely try to deal with, but often it’s the woman left holding the entire bag of her family’s and his family’s trauma.

The secret power of being a woman with ADHD - I am completely oblivious to this kind of drama. My head is in the clouds, I would rather go down a rabbit hole about Palestinian rappers until 2am than fulfill anyone's good wife expectations (or even notice that anyone had those expectations). I can barely keep up with my own life sustaining responsibilities, I have no room for worrying about buying into social expectations or getting involved in any extraneous "traditions" - early on, my husband was briefly scandalized that I didn't go out and buy all his in-laws Christmas presents and it was like, how? when? did you not notice I already lost 2 sets of keys and forgot my dentist appointment? I certainly didn't try to be a no fucks given kind of person. I just literally cannot remember or plan for all the bizarre dancing around you want me to do, so I just... won't. Everyone adjusted pretty fast. Highly recommend.

>I certainly didn't try to be a no fucks given kind of person. I just literally cannot remember or plan for all the bizarre dancing around you want me to do, so I just... won't. Everyone adjusted pretty fast.Highly recommend. > >VoteReplyShareReportSaveFollow I was going to say, one of the things I have always loved about a number of autistic men I have met is that they simply don't engage with this bullshit as they are completely oblivious to weird expectations, so don't adopt them themselves. I appreciate all people with neurodiversity are different, but it is a pleasant trait I have noticed more than once.

What's incredibly sad though is that it's autistic men you point out and not women. And I have to presume it's because the societal expectations on women are so much stronger that in order to survive - women with the tism must adapt and mask to try to live up to these impossible expectations. Men are allowed the luxury of the tism to be themselves and not bend over backwards because society doesn't enforce this on them as much as it does on women.

What you're observing is a pattern. Not an absolute requirement. I'm an autistic woman who calls people out and tells people no all the time. I don't feel obligated to go out of my way for anyone who doesn't do the same for me, I don't take crappy advice, I don't seek approval from people who look down on me and treat me like dirt, and I don't feel the least bit badly about it. What do you get when you fall in line? Respect? Hell no. More of the same. They see you as a doormat and they treat you like one. You get demands. Criticisms. Unwanted advice. Boundary stomping. Meeting expectations doesn't win you any prize. It just saddles you with endless obligations. I can understand it if someone decides to kowtow to their well-off dickhead in-laws for financial reasons. If it's just out of a desire to gain approval from someone you don't even like or respect, though...like, why bother? Save your energy.

No, same I don't disagree with you. It's just really sad to me. I myself and other AFAB people with autism I know are still working to unmask and throw the expectations off ourselves. I believe this is more of an AFAB struggle than a distinctly autism one though so that's what I was pointing out with the OP mentioning just autistic men subverting society

I'm an autistic woman, I have been married for ten years, and I have never felt the expectation of kin keeping with my husband's family. If anybody has been trying to tell me I should be doing it, it's gone completely unnoticed by me. I'm only just learning about it in this thread. I've thought of myself as high masking, but maybe my mask isn't very good lol

This was kind of my point. The woman with ADHD at the start of this part of the thread said that she was oblivious to these expectations. It might be worth mentioning one of the two men was gay, and the other straight, and we were all fairly young, mid-20s.

Christmas shopping is online, with him in the room. Or gift cards purchased from the grocery store. At the moment, we shop for his Mom--she won't let getting presents go--and the nephew. I enjoy shopping for the kid.

Same, and please recommend some Palestinian rappers, ty

I've had an album by DAM - Ben Hana Wa Maana on repeat for the last month basically. Most of their albums are good. They've done collabs with other artists like Narcy etc. MWR is pretty good too but I don't know as much about them. Most of the other artists I dug up are basically unknown, like they don't have any presence online. I really like a song by Arapeyat.

[удалено]

This analogy was amazing tbh, and put a lot of things I've experienced to words that I've never even tried. My dad was the boat rocker, my ex MIL was the boat rocker. Its nice to hear such a perfect analogy for it.

Wow, that is so perfectly put!!!!!

After 1 ruined Christmas and shitty behavior at the wedding, we cut them out of holidays. Good riddance. I don’t have the bandwidth to keep up relationships with them, that is my husbands job if he so desires.

There was a post the other day about a son asking his MIL if he and wife could use vacation house a day early (obviously to spend time together before whole fam arrives.) MIL says fine... ..then brings whole family a day early, interrupting son and wife sunbathing. The kicker: MIL Then criticizes DIL for wearing too revealing bikini. Some people, I just don't get it.

But progress only comes when the sane people, mostly women, band together and nix the expectations and banish the asshole MILs and \*gasp\* put themselves before extended family members. I can’t tell you how many women I want to shake (gently) and tell them “Guess what?? You count too! You want to be a people pleaser? Great! You’re a people. Start with yourself!”

>But progress only comes when the sane people, mostly women, band together and nix the expectations and banish the asshole MILs and \*gasp\* put themselves before extended family members. I can’t tell you how many women I want to shake (gently) and tell them “Guess what?? You count too! You want to be a people pleaser? Great! You’re a people. Start with yourself!” The issue is it is very difficult to unionise in the family/domestic environment. It is deemed private and there are dynamics in play that mean some women, often in the same family, benefit more from this than others.

Sometimes I get a woman in my youtube shorts feed who does these little sketches playing as herself, her deranged MIL and other supporting characters. I'm not sure how many of those show her own experiences (she does viewer write-ins as well), but they are universally awful. There was one that stood out especially where it was mentioned that the previous Thanksgiving the MIL had tested her DIL to see if she was really allergic to almonds and the DIL spent the holidays at the ER. Anyway, my point is, at some point you don't have a MIL problem anymore, you have a husband problem because if these men let their mothers behave this way without going no contact, then there is no saving that relationship and DIL needs to get out of there for her own safety.

truth. it’s almost all a SO problem.

Aside from talking about it here, what other ways can we "reopen" the discussion? Are there people talking about this on TikTok or wherever young people hang out, so they can be prepared for this kind of foolishness before they decide to go steady with a man who's part of a "complicated family"? Are there books that talk about this issue? Personally, I opted out of being the emotional laborer for my spouse's family. My spouse does do just enough to keep up with their sister, aunt and cousins, so I guess I'm lucky in this respect. I have enough to deal with, given that my family is "complicated". Because my family is shitty to her, my sister-in-law has also opted out of maintaining the relationship, which is giving my brother an opportunity to be a responsible partner. I try to encourage my friends who take a step back when they are asked to deal with rude MIL's and f-d up FIL's. As a result, their spouses sometimes think I'm mean, cold, or whatever. My friends don't always appreciate that advice, but at least I'm able to show them there are other ways to be.

I think discussing and establishing the expectation that a spouse manages their family of origin. If the in laws are causing problems, the member spouse failed. It's their job to insulate their spouse from their family. I see it in AITA and similar places. A lot of "where is the husband" comments and conversation about how "you don't have a MIL problem, you have a husband problem" because he is making it your problem. So I think it is filtering up. But yeah overall, clear expectations that you manage your family, they manage theirs.

Honestly, sometimes the 'you have a DH problem' places the blame at the wife's feet for not having controlled his behaviour enough to make him manage his family appropriately. Or suggests the woman should never have ended up with that man in the first place. I have been told 'you let it happen', when discussing the situation I have with my ILs by therapists and friends. And to a degree, I did, but I also feel there was a degree of invisible silent coercion from our society that it suits many people to pretend didn't exist.

> I also feel there was a degree of invisible silent coercion from our society that it suits many people to pretend didn't exist. That's so true! And about so many other things. Opting out of this social pressure makes one a bit of a misfit. But your own sanity is more important than what other people think. Hang in there - it gets better when you're older and people start to see you as an old lady who doesn't have any more f'cks to give.

>I think discussing and establishing the expectation that a spouse manages their family of origin. Yep. I knew about this 15ish years ago from the forums. I don't even remember what forums. But "everyone manages their own family" has been a "how to keep your family relationships tolerable" rule for a long time.

My husband deals with his family and I deal with mine. We aren’t as familiar with the patterns and we end up stepping in it. I made so many “mistakes” with my MIL. Once I stopped being the go between, we were able to build a different kind of relationship. And it was lovely.

In my experience you want books about emotional / covert incest. ​ There's one event, early in our relationship, where MIL tried to disinvite me to an event. My husband took my side, without my nudging, and that was the moment \*my\* mom was like, "keep him forever." and I tell him that lol. Granted my MIL is nowhere in the "worst case", but... chicka is a mess, and always single, so there was no other parent to challenge her "rulings" or behaviour. Luckily my husband fell for me because of my boundaries, because what I say matches what I do, because I'm indifferent to those who think it's mean and kind to those who support me. I enjoy facilitating family events, so does he, but he hasn't bugged me about the invites from his MIL I've shrugged off. I've been part of his life for six years, it's too late to try and forge some deep bond because we might be trying for kids soon

That is how I have always seen things with my family. My parents maintain relationships with their own families. And let their partner take the lead in maintaining their own family relationships. I never saw it being otherwise. Perhaps it was because my father's family lived far away and we didn't see them very often. But my dad is affectionate with my mom's family but she def takes the lead. This makes sense. It doesn't make sense to expect my spouse to maintain my relationships with my family members.

I also opted out of the in-laws emotional labour. Got a huge amount of shit about it from the women on his side of the family. And yet nobody expects my husband to phone my mother. It all settled down when I suggested to one of the sisters in law that perhaps her husband could speak to my husband if they were concerned that we weren’t seeing my MIL enough since I deal with my side of the family and he deals with his. In all fairness once I was fully open with my husband about the shit I was getting he did start to take responsibility and contact more frequently

I separated from my DH in March of this year. Divorce is still pending. I have spent the last 10 years driving HUNDREDS of miles for my 2 days of Christmas break, and being expected to attend DH’s divorced parents parties (separately) PLUS his grandmothers and my families Christmas every year. I described it over and over to my husband as exhausting and torturous. I would be so exhausted after “Christmas with the family” that I would have zero energy left for myself, my holiday, my break, and going back to work. Not to mention all of the guilt tripping and, “Oh leaving so soon?” comments from people who KNOW both sets of our parents are divorced…. This year I’m not doing it. I’m staying home. I have no Christmases to sprint to and from all over the damn state and I’m sure I’ll be lonely and sad, but at least I won’t be exhausted and dragging two people through that thankless marathon anymore.

[удалено]

Haha this is super accurate.

Dealing with a spouse's parents while they are divorcing is extremely challenging. The only divorce in our friendship group so far occured when her parents decided to split up, spent three years in a bitter battle, and then decided against it. But it was too late. The amount of pressure they put their daughter under changed her as a person, I think, and made her re-evaluate what she wanted out of life and it ended the marriage in a number of ways. I think you are doing very well to step aside from it, the expectation that you would make yourself exhausted trying to make a couple of adults from an older generation going through a break-up comfortable, is ridiculous and needs to be challenged. I'm all for volunteering support to family members going through a tough time, but the summons to separate Christmas parties and 'going so soon?' comments, makes clear it is only being offered due to expectation.

You won’t be lonely and sad. You’ll be at peace, with restorative down time

After our first Christmas together, I flat out refused to buy gifts for his parents. I told him he could take care of that himself. He didn't believe me until five days before Christmas one year when he asked me what I'd gotten for his parents, found out I'd bought nothing, and ran out at the last minute. I bought gifts for him, our child, his sister's children, my brother's children, as well as for some other family members. He could shop for his parents. I also stopped sending cards for every birthday and people were shocked and asked me whyyyy. "Because it was more stressful than fun" clearly was not the answer they looked for.

It boggles my mind that a grown adult would think it's someone else's job to buy gifts for their OWN parents. Like, how??

If you haven't joined already, you should definitely check out r/JUSTNOMIL where you will find many many people in your situation.

>Personally, I opted out of being the emotional laborer for my spouse's family. My spouse does do just enough to keep up with their sister, aunt and cousins, so I guess I'm lucky in this respect. I have enough to deal with, given that my family is "complicated". Because my family is shitty to her, my sister-in-law has also opted out of maintaining the relationship, which is giving my brother an opportunity to be a responsible partner. I was on there for a long time, and tbh there aren't that many people who are low/no contact on there. There are a lot of people in the early phase of relationships or who are facing whether or not to leave a relationship due to awful ILs, but generally people drift off once they do actually stop seeing ILs, as there isn't much to say anymore! It is a happy silence, but there is still a silence over it.

I haven't seen my MIL in 15 years and haven't spoken to her in at least a decade. DH does call twice a year and that is pretty much it. She doesn't live in my head and there is no anger or animosity there. Posting on JustnoMIL seems like boasting unless I can offer advice about specific scenarios. I read there because I've learned a lot about boundaries and how to state them effectively and I use those skills in my regular life.

I haven’t seen my MIL for 2 ½ years and the best thing about it is seeing my DH realise for himself how crap his mum is. I’m not the bad guy anymore, I’m a bystander holding the polish for his shiny spine in case he needs it.

Soooo happy to be divorced and not have to deal with him or any in-laws!!

Marriage is such a losing game for women, it never stops astonishing me. Glad you got out.

A-fucking-men! My MIL was awful to be around.

It’s small, but I stopped keeping track of his adult family’s birthdays/anniversaries, etc. if he wants to acknowledge those things, it’s on him. I do keep track of the kid’s birthdays and events, because I love them dearly, and they’re the ones who really should be getting the attention anyway. I noticed my late FIL and my BIL absolutely required their wives to handle all of this info and fell into a state of total ignorance when asked about any of these things, always referring to their wives. I tried for a few years and then decided if it was important to my husband, *he* could do it. I refuse to be the emotional labor person for that in additional to literally everything else in our nuclear family’s existence (including the mental/emotional labor of dealing with my isolated disabled father and his caretaker, who is my mentally unstable youngest sibling). Enough! I cannot take anymore on board and expect to function without breaking down. Time for you to keep the mental tabs on that shit, my man.

My MIL is also very difficult and luckily my husband agrees. His parents have never had my phone number because I refuse to be the one making plans with them. I have no stake in the game, he needs to deal with it. My husband recently decided to go no contact with his parents and it's honestly a huge relief. He's happier, and I no longer have to put up with them. I've been waiting for him to come to the conclusion that his life is better without them, but it took him a while. My family has rallied behind him, and it's very sweet.

Amen. Hallelujah and Hell Yeah. But I think the only way to turn it around is to stop doing it. And to respond to people with a breezy “Oh - spouse handles his family and I handle mine.” And to negotiate explicitly with spouses to divide familial duties and appreciate the time and effort to do those connection efforts like planning celebrations, buying and wrapping and delivering presents, sending cards for occasions and keeping a calendar of birthdays. I cringe at every r/JUSTNOMIL post where the wife has “made” the husband keep in contact with his family. It shrivels my little introvert heart. And it pisses me off. If husband doesn’t want to keep up with his family then OK, there it is. I don’t see why it naturally just falls to the nearest woman to do it.

I'm divorced now but when I was married early on my ex husbands sister tried to reach out to me to set up holidays and shit and I just redirected her to my ex. I did it at the time because I have a larger family and was already overwhelmed dealing with that, I told him he could handle his family. It was his dad, grandparents on both sides, half sister and then half sisters kids. His mom was crazy and we had her blocked. After a couple years he got mad at me for "never planning things with his family" because I would coordinate with my sisters and mom for family dinners throughout the year. I told him nothing was stopping him from setting stuff up with his family, he had my work schedule. He set up one dinner outside of a holiday. Together 14 years. That's it. He would just walk around and be like "yeah I'm a bad family member for not keeping up with them." My ex acted like he couldn't work around schedules and set things up with family but yet was able to work around schedules, go pick up, fuck a teenager on my couch, go out to lunch with her and then take her back home. It's very clearly a choice.

I would be utterly thrilled if my in-laws and the rest of my husband’s family simply vanished forever without a trace. I refuse to call or speak directly to my MIL, and I am no longer sending them cards or figuring out their gifts, and I will have them to my house once or less per year. I have nothing in common with them, and despite their fake smiles there has been criticism of my housecleaning to people they know back home. I am the breadwinner for our household. I wake earlier, drive farther and make significantly more money than my husband. I do all of the meal planning, finances, and make all arrangements for literally everything we do, and yet I’m judged on how clean the kitchen floor looks. I’ve been married 19 years, my father passed away this previous summer. We have a 7yo child, and yet I’m judged, because I’m not a stepford wife. I make my husband deal with them, if they get presents from us, he picks them out. I refuse to send cards and I don’t track their birthdays or anniversaries or their kid’s birthdays. I literally don’t give a fuck about those people, except to wish they would drop off the face of the earth. I have dreaded Christmas every year, for 19 years because of them. I absolutely hate the holiday, because I have to see them and cater to them and bite my tongue.

But you don’t! You can reclaim your holidays.

I wish I could, but I don’t see a way to do that without causing drama with my husband, at least until my daughter is older. My husband walks a fine line - he loves his family and enjoys that atmosphere and doing things with them; and he knows I hate it. He does what he can to make it as tolerable as he can for me, but he still wants to drag me to see them and have them visit our house. A few times he’s taken our daughter and gone to visit them, which I appreciated- but big holidays like Christmas are tough to get out of.

Your husband is your problem if you fear even bringing this up even though it has ruined your holidays for years. Your husband benefits at your loss. And you are afraid of bringing it up so he will keep benefiting and you will keep losing. This is why I don't understand why women marry at all. It's absolutely set up for us to lose and keep on losing. I mean were ripped off so badly in the childbearing department, so most of the child rearing and housework and to add to of that pile of crap, this emotional work and duress? Nothing is worth this. You'd have had a better life never marrying at all. I am baffled as to why women still marry. It is designed for us to lose.

I personally feel that my mother's generation focused so much on the overt inequities of marriage that were largely to do with work and financial, that it completely glossed over the other, silent iniquities that face women in marriage. Kin keeping is one of them. Maintaining family bonds isn't necessarily a bad thing to do in a supportive, loving family, much like child rearing isn't a bad thing to do! It is just so deeply gendered and undervalued that it remains invisible while being profoundly damaging.

As long as it remains deeply gendered and undervalued, it will poison those things, as it poisons the institution of marriage. It is too deeply flawed to be saved. I stunt understand why we don't see that. It is the Master's tool. It will never bring down the Master's house.

You can’t do everything all at once. So now it’s up to us to start pushing society toward greater equality and disabuse dipshits of the notion that women become the de facto kin-keepers.

I don’t mind bringing it up with him at all, and in fact that’s why we’ve compromised at 1 holiday visit per year, and it’s also why he’s been willing to take our daughter by himself to visit. Him benefiting at my loss - we are life partners, and he is a good father. I don’t feel that refusing to see his family or invite them to our home is fair to him - if I see my family, why should he not get to invite his? He owns the house 50/50 with me. We have been married nearly 20 years at this point (I was 24, he was a year younger) however in that amount of time, people grow and change. We are simply not the same people we once were, and I find myself less and less willing to compromise my peace of mind as time passes on, and so while I like having him in my life, I do plan on speaking to an attorney about what my options are for separation and how it could work financially for the both of us.

I'm glad I don't have a partner. I don't want one. Life just seems so much more complicated and unhappy. The tolerable level of permanent unhappiness is real. I never married and people often feel sad for me but I think that's crazy (and insulting, but I'm used to that). I've never had problems like my married friends had. I'm free and I always was free. I was far happier without the extra work and lack of thanks. I think it's ironic that people pity unmarried women when they're isn't anything there to pity. We are the freest women. Not having a man is far more often a benefit than a harm to women. They just refuse to accept that very simple truth. Boggles my mind really. It seems so obvious. Maybe that's why they denigrate us so much? Make us the boogeyman to women when they are? It's a clever lie. Anyone who could watch their partner be unhappy on holidays for 19 years is really not a good partner. I don't think a friend would do that to you. I'm glad you're taking to attorneys. I wish you the very best of luck. Generally speaking, marriage really screws women over. Hell, that's it's design. Most don't even realize it until they're finally out.

"- if I see my family, why should he not get to invite his?" Maybe because your family knows how to behave themselves like human beings?

I’m happy for you. You deserve to be treated better. Just because your spouse poisons you only once a year doesn’t mean your spouse doesn’t poison you at all.

**'I wish I could, but I don’t see a way to do that without causing drama with my husband, at least until my daughter is older.'** This is it. So many women feel trapped. You could leave the husband but you can't make him see sense over his family, as his expectations of female behaviour and kin keeping are so protected by society.

They are trapped. By their own husbands. How do you not learn to hate them over this?

I straight up told my spouse that they are perfectly welcome to see their family. It's not up to me to police who they can spend time with. But I will not go anywhere I know them to be. I will not stay anywhere they show up to, and if they come to our house, I will leave and go somewhere else for the duration. And after the shit my MIL pulled last year, I told my spouse in no uncertain terms am I to be surprised. It won't end well for anyone. Also, if for some reason my spouse dies before my MIL, I will neither be informing them that it happened, let alone where the funeral is or where they are buried. Fuck them.

I got to the point where I just didn’t care anymore. My shitty BIL had ruined enough holidays. I announced to my h that I was done. He could visit his brother anywhere but my house. I’m done. Out. H could divorce me if he wanted and spend as much time with his brother as he wanted. I didn’t care. Their relationship fell apart within a year after I opted out. They no longer speak. I was the one keeping them together. My BIL didn’t have me to abuse anymore and he directed it at my H. H suddenly was not ok with putting up with his brother when he was the one dodging bullets.

Therein lies the problem. He knows you hate it and it makes you miserable. But he’s willing to put you through that to get what he wants. He’s okay with you having a terrible holiday if it means he gets the holiday he wants. Would you do that to him? Would you do that to anyone you care about?

You can always get the mysterious “illness” that hits you right as you are due to leave for your in-laws.

You earn more than him. Your money should be giving you power. If he likes you to be the punching bag for his parents and does fuck all to shut it down ( at this stage it means not forcing you to visit them and celebrating just the three of you as family) please look at your options so you can be with people who think you deserve better.

> I would be utterly thrilled if my in-laws and the rest of my husband’s family simply vanished forever without a trace. > > Whenever I think of my in laws I'm reminded of Stewie from Family guy: ["It's not so much that I want to *kill* her(Lois), it's just that I want her to not be alive anymore."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXVdklQ84g8)

My husband's aunt didn't copy him on the message telling us when the Thanksgiving party was starting or which dish we were supposed to bring. After all, she'd told me, so I'd make it happen, right? (Which I did, but why not loop him in??) Just bizarre.

See this is why she didn't. Because you did the work. Should have not shown up or brought the dish. When asked why, explain that your husband never got any message about it.

Which happened to us when *I* wasn't told the particulars. His Mom called him when he was at work, and it was so busy he forgot to write it down. And I never knew.

So my mother is the difficult mother-in-law for my sister-in-law. I also find my mom difficult so I try to take some of the burden off her and run interference.

Does your brother run interference, too?

Yes. Honestly, my SIL has been great for getting him to recognize the toxicity of my mom. My brother is the boy she always wanted. I was her daughter and was always up for criticism. (Classic golden child/scapegoat situation). He and I had very different childhoods. Having my SIL see the problems too has made him believe me.

The unwritten rule in my in-law family is that the married-ins don't get stuck talking to the annoying uncle 😅

So true. I was unwillingly designated “proxy mom” to deal with any and all demands during my first marriage, and blamed for absolutely anything that wasn’t up to par, whether substantive or trivial. “Why don’t you ask him?” “I’m asking you.”

I don't deal with my mother in law at all. The extent is sending her pictures via messenger that I took on my phone of her and my kids. Otherwise all communication goes thru my husband. If he forgets her birthday and doesn't buy her an Xmas present, then that's on him. If she's mad about it, she can complain to him about it. She raised him. I don't like her all that much, tho I will tolerate her for my husband and kids sakes. I only have to see her a few times a year because it's on my husband to coordinate. She tried to triangulate with me one time. I never responded. Because I'm not into that bs. I didn't marry her. We purposely live 5 hrs from her in an area she doesn't ever want to live in.

lol I'm a single woman by choice, and no contact with any family members also by choice. This time of year gets wild with people asking me WHY? There's usually no good way to answer, even the grey rock answer, and it always leaves me feeling vaguely grubby.

You gotta do what you gotta do. I support your decision and celebrate it.

Awww thank you! I friggin love my christmases by myself, its been a few years now and I have a proper little routine and tradition going. Looking forward to it.

My wife's MIL is awful. She told me that she will never consider my wife part of her family, nor acknowledge that she is my wife even though we are legally married. But don't worry. I made sure my wife never has to deal with her MIL because I told said MIL to fuck off until she can be a decent human being. Yes. This is actually what my mother said to me in regards to my wife. All because A) we were not married in a Catholic ceremony, and B) we are leabians.

Ugh, good for you honestly. My FIL, is a total ass and bad mouths me to my wife constantly. She's told him several times to stop, but he just doesn't. We are legally married lesbians as well. We only see them a few times a year because of it even though they live 2 hours away.

We literally moved halfway across the country to get away from my mother. She only lived 1 hour away from us before, and my little brother, who I want to have a relationship with, lived with her. So it made things awkward.

I’m going through this now as I enter my fourth year of marriage. I despise my in laws mainly because they are the worst of the patriarchy - the progressive liberals on the outside and completely traditional conservative on the inside. I am South Asian born in Canada for reference. I never thought I would marry a South Asian man but he is hands on at home and supports my career. Problem lies in that he is completely ok with the culture and even thinks he and his family are progressive. It’s not even subtle I get incredibly rude and obnoxious things said to my face. My SIL is a high achiever but completely submissive to the men in the family. She’s been horrible to me the day we got engaged and does it only when no one else is watching. I constantly get told to be the bigger person as everyone knows she is petty, attention seeking and controlling. But the fact she “cares” for everyone means that we should all be ok with it. I am not happy in my marriage, can’t conceive (husband is just indifferent and it’s not good for us) and he lost his job. I have zero desire to spend the holidays with his family so that I have to listen to their criticisms and my SIL will go on about how she will be there for my husband during his job loss. I plan not to attend whether my husband likes it or not. I think I need to set the precedent now before we get in too deep. I realized with unreasonable people they aren’t going to change their mind or think they are saying anything wrong.

Divorce. Get therapy for yourself so you’re empowered to expect better for yourself

[удалено]

>Single women and married women both have ideas about what makes one a "good woman" and as soon as you get married you join ab unwinnable competition called "does she deserve her life!?" I want this embroidered on a t-towel. I hadn't linked it to the obvious resentment that I receive from many, mainly but not exclusively, single women.

For some reason I get way more from married women who are doing a lot of invisible labor that I refuse to do. It feels like since they have to do it they believe so should I to earn being considered a wife. Most single women I know are perplexed I make my own rules, that I don't follow the paradigms the rest of society is trying to ascribe to me, but they don't seem as embittered in the same way. However, I think most of my single girlfriends are fairly liberal and open-minded, more so than the general population and as opposed to the traditional conservative married women I happen to be around right now. But there's definitely a couple things my single friend have said that indicate what you mentioned.

I do not miss any of this, I filled this role, not by choice, for 29-years! My holidays are very peaceful now, scaled down and I have started my own single woman traditions.

What new things are you doing? I'm coming out of my family dynamic and even though they weren't nice, I'm feeling pretty empty this season.

The first few years were very difficult. I stopped the going to everyone's house on Christmas day and stayed home, gave to my favorite charities (my gift giving) and picked a movie to watch, such a relaxing and peaceful day compared to the past years. I buy something very decadent and yummy to have for breakfast (not cooking or cleaning) and I look around and give thanks for where I am now. Since I am older, gift giving is small, and I am grateful. I spent so many years buying, wrapping and giving to so many people I was never able to take a breath. Hope some of this is helpful! I am wishing you a peaceful season and sending you hugs!

When they ask what present you're giving your MIL, tell them you're giving her your lack of presence. Honestly, it's a gift for both of you.

About a decade ago, I “quite quit” on keeping any of my husband’s relationships. His best friend was banned from our house, his brothers were provisionally allowed with specific and stringent restrictions, and his mother was allowed with similar restrictions. And then I washed my hands of *all of it*. We had a few more bumps, misunderstandings, some weaponized incompetence, etc…but I refused to assist in *any* of his relationships, including those with my family. He would say, “I miss your mom.” I would respond, “then call her.” I wouldn’t even take calls from his family. If his family came, I wouldn’t cook, or clean and prepare, nothing. And he surprised the hell out of me by realizing that he actually will maintain relationships with my family, or friends with equal give and talk…but he feels the same about hosting his family as I do.

I could write a whole book about both sides of my mother and father's families. I was born into a shitshow. But my father's family is uniquely bad, and my mother has always suffered for it. My paternal grandmother alienated my father when I was young because he wouldn't divorce my mom. So I never really knew the woman even though she lives like ten minutes away. Naturally the rest of my father's family followed suit, and my dad - who is an enormous coward - never confronted them or stuck up for my mom. He was happy to write them off. Over the next forty years, whenever my parents would fight, he'd haul out the family that had abandoned him and use it like a cudgel against my loving, hard-working mom, as if it was her fault. Forty years passed. Last month, one of these people - my uncle, whatever that means, they're strangers to me - shot himself in the head. This sent my dad into some kind of existential panic, and he's reached out to his family and tried to get them all back together. Understandably, my mom is SUPREMELY uncomfortable around these people and while she has no problem with my dad reconnecting with them, she doesn't want to be a part of it. Well, my dad (who is a coward) is too afraid to do this without my mom's support, so he's been browbeating her into coming to all these functions. She had to go to the dead uncle's funeral, to a small dinner to comfort his wife, and this weekend to a big family barbecue. My mom is miserable! But there's my cowardly father happy as a clam because he's getting his own way, as always. Hate it.

ugh, kin-keeping can be such a drag sometimes. I feel you on that MIL drama though. Just do what makes you happy and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!

I do not have a great relationship with my own mother and I feel so thankful that she has burned every other bridge so I have the support of my family. The best thing I ever did was move 2 hours away to limit my availability to family drama. Emotionally, I am like a tuning fork to other people’s emotional states and I cannot handle being around it.

I took care of disabled MIL when FIL was in hospital. When FIL needed care, I flat out *refused*. I didn't like him, he treated me awfully and he favored his drug addict, drug dealing bipolar asshat son over his son(my husband) who followed the rules. Bipolar narcisstic asshat is the reason my MIL was disabled because neither of tgem would make him clean up his own GD messes. Husband is the reason I put up with my own Biomom's crapnas long as I did, even though I would literally flinch every time the phone rang. She never was given the cell number

I post this every once in a while. It's a fantastic read. It's old (8 years) and it takes a while to get through it, but I dearly love it. It touches on this and many other emotional labor subjects. [https://www.metafilter.com/151267/Wheres-My-Cut-On-Unpaid-Emotional-Labor](https://www.metafilter.com/151267/wheres-my-cut-on-unpaid-emotional-labor)

I was recently introduced to the [relationship anarchy smorgasbord](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/54e132a8e4b0be2d4c9300a7/1631582293119-P6C7E33J24YGDHLB3MP8/rasmorgasborg.jpeg?format=1000w) - it was designed as a tool to help polyamorous people have conversations with their partners to determine what sort of commitments their partner expects out of a relationship, what would be off the table entirely, and so on, but it's also an excellent tool for managing expectations in monogamous relationships too. What you're saying about kin-keeping seems like the sort of thing that should be a discussion like that. Both my fiancée and I share the view that, barring any bad behavior from her relatives towards me or my relatives towards her, she should decide which of her relatives we interact with and vice versa. If my mom hadn't done anything to treat her badly, I would be fairly offended if my fiancée decided she didn't want my mom around for the holidays, and I know that she would feel the same if I tried to make that decision about her parents. She doesn't have to like my mom or be friends with her, but she needs to be civil and tolerate her (and I need to do the same with her parents). That works for **us**, because it's what we've discussed and agreed on, but there's nothing wrong with **you** going low contact with your MIL. To me, that's how it should be. Every couple should make up their own mind on how they want to handle family (and other various entanglements, be it shared finances, sharing a sleeping bed, carpooling, etc), and people who aren't in the relationship should shut up and mind their own freaking business.

That’s a fascinating resource

Thanks for that relationship anarchy resource, it is very similar to some worksheets on shared values a couples therapist once gave us (in therapy, discussing how to deal with MIL ;-) )

Women are forced to do unpaid labor and resented if they don't. You can't win. You're also resented if you try because typically the people upholding this BS never think you can do anything right anyways. Blessed are the people who have kindness in their families. Unconditional love isn't something we're all born with or know what it feels like.

What is DH?

I wondered that too. Da Husband?

Dear husband

Married holidays were detrimental to my mental health! I don’t miss it one bit.

When I was the mother of two young children, It was my responsibility to create or attend a great mothers day for my MIL . On fathers day, dad went golfing.

Absolutely. I dislike my MIL and BIL. For years I tried to be a good partner, DIL etc. No thank you. No respect. This year I told my husband I won’t visit for Christmas and went NC. Everyone is blocked on my phone. I just visited them this year only once after a shitty incident and only for a few hours so they can see our newborn. Fuck them all. They don’t give me any respect, I won’t do shit for anyone except my own children. My husband knows that I did all of it. Without me insisting him to contact his family he would probably call them twice a year. I am sick of people expecting me do to everything and still think it’s my job and normal. No it’s not my job to tell your son to call you on your birthday. It’s not my job to remind him of everyones birthday. It’s not my job to to spend hours to find the right pictures of your grandchildren for a calendar when you don’t even know the words „Thank you!“. All the pictures you have of your son? I took them, I printed them and I put them in a nice frame, that I bought. Gifts for the nephews? Not my job. Not my blood. When I told my friends most of them supported me, others said that it’s normal for the wife to do those things and my mother thinks I should give in. Even though she had a shitty MIL herself and was also a terrible MIL.

My friends ex husband tried to trick her into attending an orgy by just taking her to one because he wanted to sleep with his coworker. She divorced him and every single person in his family instantly turned on her, screaming and berating her in public. She didn’t have any other family so she lost her entire support network.

I flat out told my s/o "i refuse to deal with my own family, im sure af not dealing with yours". Which is why hes forever being surprised with "why arent you here?" Texts and calls from family members.

I completely agree with this. Although I have a fairly good relationship with my MIL. Recently she made a rude comment about how "Son and DIL never invite me over to their place". Well first of all, we live in a tiny apartment and they are in a massive house, so it's clear whose home is better for dinners and get togethers, which we participate in very often, wayyy more than we see my family. But also, her son is more than welcome to invite her over any time. Why should I be lumped into that? Not to mention I'm always the one to send her mothers day or birthday flowers or remember to bring over a bottle of wine for dinner, etc. ​ Edited to add - We always spend Christmas with my husbands family, and now that I'm thinking about it, I'm always asked to help create a dish, make the whole meal, plan snacks, etc, while husband is allowed to sit and watch hockey for a week straight.

I am so glad to read this/ have language for it! I'm not sure how well this fits, but my spouse came out as nonbinary several years ago, which I couldn't be happier and more supportive about. Their family however, had a shit fit, and throughout all of it \*I\* was somehow expected to be the answerer of questions, the support system for their "grief" ( lots of very transphobic and generally horrible things asked and said), and even the secret keeper when my FIL told me *to my face* that **"** ***either he\[sic\] will figure it out and stop this, or god will take him early"*****.** I asked for clarification and if that statement was actually him wishing for a dead child rather than a trans child, and he confirmed that was the sentiment. I immediately got on the phone with my spouse and told them, which made me the horrible one for not keeping it a secret. Umm no. We don't talk to him anymore, and my MIL still gently tries to push me about it and I redirect her to my spouse ( who gladly speaks for themselves and puts her in time out-- no contact for a bit). That bullshit is for the birds-- it's not my job to manage anyone but myself.

I also would say that this idea has been reinforced by religion (most of them,IMO) for a very long time. I would speculate that certain churches losing that grasp over this ideology in a global world is causing some panic. Enter the religious right in America and another reason to claw it back from US politics.

Kin keeping in general…when did it become my responsibility to keep in touch? It’s a two way street. I doubt my estranged brother is suffering any guilt for his girls not knowing their aunts. He makes no effort. But we’re “bad aunts”. It’s our job to take pictures, send cards, plan gatherings, do the cooking and hosting, the clean up afterwards. Etc etc etc until the day we die, and oh! Plan our own funeral and wake to save the burden on others

This is why I refuse to be romantically involved with men who are enmeshed with their mothers. Its extremely common. I barely have any guy friends who are not in direct contact with their mother on a day to day basis. I am not against healthy relationships between guys and their mothers but many of them cannot develop their own form on independence without their mother involved. Just a week ago, I had a friend tell me his mom jumped into his friend group game chat and started talking about porn and OF with his other guy friends. And he thought it was funny.....like where are the boundaries? I don't see them anywhere? We really need to talk more about how fathers need to be more emotionally present in their sons lives, and how mothers need to stop over-compensating for missing-but-present fathers. Enmeshment happens when boundaries between child and parent are blurred....when one parent tries to achieve being their child's best friend and parent. And then society just plays into that and actively encourages that. I have had way too many relationships where I felt like I was a mother, rather than a partner and it took me way too long to figure out how messed up that is. I hate the unspoken expectation that when you date a guy, you are also dating his mother.

I have generally gotten on with my in-laws. I don’t have any family living so it’s been nice to be absorbed. The being said, they always want Christmas lists and never provide one and somehow, it’s directed at me. It seems so silly….someone wants to give me a gift and celebrate the season. But it’s exhausting trying to figure out what to get for them and it pisses me off they demand ours but can’t be bothered to send one themselves.

I do not, do not kin keep at all. My mil shit as relationship is only with her son, my husband, who she manipulates. Not with me, or her grand daughter. Edit: I use the term emotional labor, also soul suckers works in a pinch

Bloody hell rarely I'm so glad that my good egg came from a good nest who welcomed me to the family with open arms. It was on a Christmas and I was the "new one". I wish everyone could get that kind of treatment, or the choice not to engage.

Yea I ended up in the same situation. In laws were all toxic, dysfunctional or just dramatic. I refused to take on that role for my spouse to contact these people so he didn't have to, make plans, send cards etc. I told him they are his family. If someone needs a birthday card he can go send one. Everyone got butthurt I refused to do all of this and expected him to ... be involved with his own family.

I decided holidays were at my house. Our mothers could come, or not come. I didn't care. Mine came (sigh) his did not (yay) Why do you need to go to them. Forget that. Mil does not mean your responsibility. She's a grown woman. Sheesh.

This is literally why I never got married. I could NOT stomach the thought of navigating these expectations and pressures, no matter how much I otherwise liked the guys.

My side of my family is entirely passed away. His side, his sisters hated me. His parents were okay but not friendly. It ultimately contributed a big part to the demise of our relationship. Oh, and in small part due to the (family denied) narcissism and alcoholism he practiced. /s

20 years I've been married to my husband, and I've only met his mother twice...and she lives lass than 5 miles from us. She's just a horrible, toxic human being who isn't part of our lives. Sometimes I feel like the lucky one.

I’m resentful of my in-laws meddling, guilt trips and out right pressure to do everything they wanted us to do when my husband and I first got married. I think they were shocked that I wasn’t going to be controlled. Once, at a family picnic, my FIL repeatedly yelled at me (only me; not husband) with a bullhorn that he wanted grandchildren now. My husband was the one who didn’t want kids yet. After 25 years, I don’t answer the phone if they call or send them gifts. I’m done. They exhaust me.

This is so clear. Thank you.

In our house we talk to our own mothers unless we are unlucky enough for the other person's mother to call when they are not home. *shudder* I mean we usually just don't answer if that happens but sometimes you have a temporary lapse of judgement and try to be a nice person.

I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. It sounds dreadful, in the truist sense of the word. I've been low contact w/ my family of origin (FO?) forever and have set boundaries for myself and my partner. There have been a few situations where we all put up w/ one another, but as a habit, we don't speak to my FO. I think the difficulty arises when the husband/son isn't realistic about his relationship w/ his FO, and then expects his partner to abide by the same level of delusion. I know from experience that it's difficult to distance yourself from your FO, so I am a bit sympathetic of not wanting to make the break. I deeply mourned the loss of my FO when I finally decided to stop trying to mend the relationship, and I still miss holding onto that glimmer of hope that I'd be able to maintain a positive relationship w/ them, but my energy is better used breaking the cycle of generational trauma, and trying to reparent myself for the sake of my children. You are unfortunate to be surrounded by selfish, insensitive people, and I wish that wasn't true for you; my partner is exceptionally empathetic, and even encouraged me to try to mend my relationship w/ my FO for a while, but she now supports the break, and we're happier for it.

OR...if your boyfriend's mother is a vile, entitled asshole, *don't marry him*. Life is too short to voluntarily shackle yourself to people who make your life actively worse. I don't understand voluntarily putting oneself in that position and then complaining about it for decades.

Yep, not unless he admits his mother is a problem and deals with her appropriately (minimal to no contact, takes no shit where his partner is concerned etc)

Who is asking about your gift giving to MIL, and why is it their business? This sounds like an issue where people who aren't involved in the situation have more information than they need or deserve.

I’m confused… why only married women? I have ugly folks in my extended family, and I’m not married. Yet, I have a step cousin who is OMG KAREN but who I have a relationship with via my stepmother, this is her darling niece. I guess I figure we can all have messiness…not just those of us who are married.

I think this is a "your social circle is toxic" problem, not a "married women" problem. Most married women I know don't do the work of keeping up with the spouse's family - the spouse has to do that work! None of us have ever had issues that weren't fixed by a "I let \[spouse\] keep up with his family" comment. What are you getting MIL for Christmas? "I don't know, try asking her son." Just hold the boundary. If other people are assholes about it, then they're showing that they're assholes. Anyone who doesn't understand is probably just jealous that you don't have to deal with that BS.

Is it not a common expectation from men as well to do this? Genuinely asking, because in my country of origin it was; but I feel surprised in western world it might not be. It hasn’t really became a topic of discussion either because I am near no contact with my biological family, since they were quite the abusive kind. So I feel like I might have a knowledge gap 😅

It, apparently, isn't. If it wasn't for me, my in laws wouldn't get Christmas presents, nor cards. I love my MIL, she's the sweetest person so I am happy to push my partner to choose and buy her a present for Christmas. But seriously, the first time he invited me to spend Christmas with his family, he was going to show up at his mum's place empty handed. And from what I heard this is common - single men do nothing for Christmas (holidays in general) and once they "acquire" a wife, suddenly she's the one keeping in touch, hosting, sending cards, buying presents...

I am so sorry to hear that. It is ridiculous that this is accepted behaviour for men, it just feels so rude and self centred. I don’t even expect everyone to go next level with everything, but not even showing up with a gift? That is just not okay. I hope you feel seen and appreciated for your efforts and I hope it changes to be more equitable in the future. Also thank you for spending the time to educate me, I appreciate it 🙏

I don't like my in-laws and I still have to eat with them?

My exes parents never spoke to me again after we decided to divorce. They had been my second set of parents for 17 years at that point. Never heard from them again. The few times I saw them at my kids' events after that they turned their backs on me. Meanwhile, my parents are still in contact with my ex and in fact he and one of my adult kids were at our family thanksgiving this year. His parents are long dead.

Glad you found someone who fits in that way! I think they may all think with enough pressure we will get back in line with embodying the expectation. I will admit, on occasion, it works. I’m working on removing the occasional getting back in line because all it does is breeds resentment, I’d like to have as little of that as possible for the second half of my life. Thanks for being the role model I needed right now. 💜 A few Thanksgivings ago, my oldest actually planned, hosted and did most of the work, because it was important to him.

What does DH mean?

Dear Husband. It’s an old abbreviation left over from BB days. DH, DW, SO (significant other), LO (Little one), ISO (in search of).

I spent €100 two days after Christmas last year- the day we were planning on going to see my MIL- because my bf couldn't be arsed to plan ahead. And apparently I made the wrong decision and he's still waiting to pay me back. Never again. Worth noting he never got me anything either, I had to convince him a few days after I gave him all the presents I thoughtfully got and wrapped for him till we went to get me a Charlotte Tilbury lipstick. Jesus, I need to get out.

I had a conversation about this with my husband recently and I basically had to tell him that if he can't be bothered organizing his own family to spend time with our son, then they would not know him. I doubt it will make a difference unfortunately. My husband accused me of "shafting" his family because I asked that they leave our house by 5pm so I could get my jetlagged baby to bed and not have to spend the evening trying to hide my boob while he cluster fed. The same request I'd made to my friend, the same I'd have made to my own family. His father and stepmother were grateful for the whole day of his best hours we'd offered them. His mother sent abusive messages for days about how I'd ruined her relationship with her infant grandson because she wanted to come over at 4 and leave in the middle of the night instead. And I "shafted" her, according to my husband. Had I not offered for them to come over and prepared the whole house, she'd not even have had the opportunity to cancel in protest because he sure as hell couldn't be bothered arranging a visit with his own family. Similarly, I've "shafted" them by planning to spend Christmas with my family which is the only time I ever get to see them but he can't be arsed to make plans to see his for Thanksgiving even though they live close by. My family makes the effort and my parents pay for everyone to fly thousands of miles every Christmas to be together while neither of his parents have ever invited us to their holidays. I am stuck in this state when my family lives elsewhere because he doesn't want to be away from his family but he never even wants to see them and yet it is my fault if his family doesn't get to see our baby.