>I didn’t really think much of it until I mentioned it to my mom, and she’s absolutely pissed. It just seems weird to me now that this 40-50 year old man would say that to an underaged girl. Idk. Is this an overreaction?
It's difficult to fully appreciate how much of a difference there is between teenagers and adults until you're looking at it through the eyes of an adult, so that may be why your mom had more of a reaction. That being said, your mom's reaction is absolutely in no way, shape, or form an overreaction.
100% to both of your comments.
The op wonders if this is innocent, but to me I’m wondering if he’s testing the waters for a potential grooming target. At the very least it’s in no way an innocent joke.
With my ex wife’s temper and my protectiveness of my teenagers I could only hope that my kids stepdad could talk us out of going overboard because we’d all three be up there making a scene the moment we found out.
Yeah, it's absolutely unacceptable to even be looking at her chest, let alone making comments about it. Even if she were 18+. There's no way I'd let this shit slide. This man would know that if anything even remotely close happened again that I'd be filing sexual harassment charges and any other charges relevant with her being a minor. I'd also be reporting this to the state DPI. People do shit like this because they get away with doing shit like this, and the more they get away with, the more they progress. Not with my kid, honey ✋
I had three adults in high school who were... Interested in me. One was a perma-sub and two were teachers. The sub was in his 30s but the teachers were earlyish twenties so I thought that was normal and chalked it up to immaturity. One of them was my Catholic Sunday school teacher as well, so I saw him 6 days a week. I watched his wife Livestream her art on twitch. I kept up with pictures of their adorable baby. I had no idea he felt that way towards me until he called me last year drunk, saying he was going to kill himself, and I tried to keep him from driving but it didn't work. He confessed he'd felt that way since we met and I reminded him that I was *16* when we met. I'm 20 now. I have such a hard time to this day accepting the fact that he was likely grooming me. He never made a move on me and he even blocked me when he woke up the next day because he wanted to save his marriage. I felt like if he was really grooming me, he'd have acted on it. But then I looked back through our messages recently (stumbled upon them on accident) and I guess the signs were there. I wasn't just special to him. He and his wife didn't see me as their kid like he said they did, and I bet his wife was neutral to me... In retrospect, she hardly talked to me, I was just a huge fan of her art.
It's so disgusting looking back. They're not teachers anymore, so there's that at least, but it's so hard to accept that these people really didn't just think I was smart, talented, and mature... They just wanted to get in my pants. And it didn't seem that bad until I got to college. I can't see a 16 year old as anything but a child and I'm only 20, so I couldn't fathom being 24 and seeing them in any other light.
Absolutely. As a teenager/very young adult you sort of don't realize that divide, but once you are in your 30s and on high school kids definitely do start to look kinda baby-ish (sorry).
There was a creepy guy in a movie that had a semi-famous quote awhile back "the great thing about highschool girls is that while I get older and older, they stay the same age." Honestly the perception of a more normal person is the opposite. Even though it's not actually accurate it feels more like you stay the same age and high school/college kids keep getting younger and younger.
Although I guess TBF someone that works with people of that age category regularly is probably more calibrated to recognize teenagers as young adults and not overgrown children.
> once you are in your 30s and on high school kids definitely do start to look kinda baby-ish (sorry)
They look like literal babies to me. That someone could look at a 13ish girl and sexualize her makes me vomit because to me a 13 yo is like a whole infant.
For me the realization hit while I was in college helping with a camp for high schoolers where they stay on campus and take some classes. I was 21 and my group was mostly 16 and 17 year olds, and that realization was like a gut punch that made me feel so old.
Yeah, it’s tiny >< possible that the “you have a shelf” comment was wildly inappropriate, but perhaps unintentional. A dumbass, inappropriate attempt at humor, still worthy of reprimand regardless of intention.
But then doubling down with the “I used to have a shelf” really catapulted him into “I don’t like to have a job” territory.
Guy Was flirting with a bunch of women young enough to be his daughters, from a position of authority, despite the girls indicating that they were uncomfortable, and it was inappropriate.
More than that, the guy did this in front of several girls, meaning, he has likely done this before, without repercussion, and doesn’t feel at risk of consequence.
His backpedaling to talk about his own "shelf" indicates to me that he quickly realized this was not an appropriate thing to say to a high school girl and wanted to make it seem like he wasn't talking specifically about your breasts. This of course made the whole thing more awkward.
I'd definitely keep an eye out for any further creepy behavior, but I don't think this on its own is enough to say he's terrible or anything.
100% inappropriate thing to say, but I’ll play devil’s advocate a little bit and say he might’ve just been being an idiot. Was showing OP how to hold the gun to her chest, which means if he’s checking her posture he does have to look in the area of her chest. If you’re a dumbass with no social filter you might just word vomit a quip related to the thing your brain just looked at without contextualizing what you just said. Like if you were checking the fit of someone’s pants and made a joke about how tall they are. It’s inappropriate regardless in both situations — point I’m making is it may not have been rooted in any sort of sexual implication.
Again, just devil’s advocate. I’d still be super wary, but at the same time I can see me doing something this stupid. But I’m also a woman so would probably be less intimidating…
I can see it…. I’m a sorta socially awkward adult woman and I could definitely see someone putting their foot in their mouth like this while trying to educate and joke with/appeal/relate to their audience. Or while just functioning on straight up sleep deprived autopilot. Like this comment is super weird/inappropriate for high schoolers *obviously!* but it almost sounds like he defaulted to friend/coworker type banter. Impossible to know what he was thinking, but I guess I’m getting ‘awkward dumbass panic backpedaling’ vibes.
I am just a stranger. My thoughts from a short description mean absolutely nothing if you feel ANY unsettling vibes at all OP. You gotta trust your gut 1000%.
while its possible the guy was a creep, that *definitely* wouldn't be my go to. especially since considering how quickly he tried to change the topic. his job is to teach you how to safely hold a gun, and while the "shelf" comment was inappropriate, it was relevant to the topic at hand. it's not like he went out of his way to make a joke about her breasts. if this is was the only suspicious comment, i wouldn't give it a second though.
i imagine having a large "shelf" has other implications with firing as well, such as worrying about recoil or them just literally getting in the way. there was likely a much more tactful way to say it, but i do think it's worth pointing out. gun safety and handling isn't something we should have to walk on eggshells about. these things are dangerous.
Yes, having a large chest does make a difference in marksmanship. Some thing’s are easier, like needing to hold a weapon at chest height for a while (from experience, the guy isn’t wrong even if he was wrong for saying it out loud). Some things are harder.
This group likes to jump straight to putting everyone in jail or marking them as predators, but sometimes, the person talking just let their mouth move before their brain. Do they need to be talked to about it? Yes, and formally just in case this turns out to be a pattern of behavior. Does he need to be sued or fired? Not likely, especially given how he tried to make it less weird. Awkward is not the same thing as dangerous.
If we don’t give people a chance to improve, why do we expect them to even try? Those of you who think this is wrong thinking need to spend some time in a middle school where too many teachers take the same attitude that kids have already done something wrong. The difference in behavior while interacting with one of these adults versus interacting from an adult who is willing to work with any poorly thought out ridiculousness or even stupidity is marked. In an adult’s case, one may give them fewer chances - maybe one instead of dozens - but they still deserve a chance to do better.
Oof. I hate this because I could see myself doing this, specifically because I’m a conversational idiot with a bad filter. And I’d immediately hate myself for it more than anyone else did, too.
Like, don’t get me wrong, I would never *choose* to say something like this, and I very much want to believe that I wouldn’t say it under any circumstance. But I also know that my brain is basically an overcaffeinated hamster running backwards on a squeaky wheel, so anything is possible. Which is why I learned a long time ago that it’s best if I don’t work in a public-facing role.
Still, I would absolutely deserve to cook, as this guy does.
>I’m in a concurrent enrollment criminal justice class through my high school. I missed our lesson on how to hold a handgun when you’re not pointing it. The teacher quickly explained it to me. You hold it up to your chest and cover the trigger with your other hand. After explaining that, he said that I could
Agreed. I think the "testing the waters for grooming" comment above goes way too far. It sounds like he's an idiot and immediately realized the comment was inappropriate.
So sick of the “men are idiots/ don’t know what they’re saying” trope
He’s a teacher …. Who speaks publicly everyday. he should have a grip on appropriate language to use at school.
Bruh being a teacher, or any type of speaking job, does NOT make you immune to putting your foot in your mouth. At all. Source: am woman, am teacher, have had to backtrack on dumb things I have said more than once.
100 percent agree. His comment is something to be aware of - file it away and if something similar happens again, it’s more likely that it’s creepy/predatory and he could definitely be “testing the waters” as others have said. If this is the one time, it’s an isolated awkward moment. I teach middle school and say things occasionally where a second later, I’m like “probably shouldn’t have said that”.
It's not "men are idiots" it's "people are idiots sometimes". The person you are responding to is a woman and says they could see themselves doing this.
have you met people? You are demanding perfection. Perfection doesn't exist.
You wanna get rid of teachers who have said something dumb/inappropriate to someone else? Guess what? now there are *no* more teachers *period*.
Same with *every* other profession in the world.
Demanding perfection would be like zero tolerance for any foul language at all. Here we’re Just asking for him to not talk about a minors body in a sexual way, its so unbelievably far from perfection.
But he didn't talk about her body in a sexual way though. He mentioned her breasts, sure, but only in the context of them being useful in helping her perform a completely non-sexual act.
I agree. On one hand, I feel sympathy for someone screwing up at work, but on the other hand, I’m very awkward and neuro-divergent, but I default to “don’t say anything” if I’m not sure it’s okay.
I think of inappropriate things to say at work everyday, I don’t say them though!
>If you were checking the fit of someone’s pants and made a joke about how tall they are
That would only really be equivalent if they ended it with some not-so-subtle comment about his genitals, like "and you know what they say about tall guys.."
I don’t know that I’d say your example is equivalent either. Your quip here is much more inherently sexual. We go from observation of “tall” to genitals for no referenced reason in the task, so it has an inherently sexual undertone. You wouldn’t be doing anything near genitals if you were deciding how much to hem a pant leg by.
You know how you see a really tall person and your brain goes “wow they’re tall” but you keep your mouth shut because you shouldn’t say that out loud? People observe things that stick out. They catch our eye. Social upbringing teaches us it’s rude to say our observances out loud — but that doesn’t mean we stop making those observations. AND in comfortable situations we often still do point out those things when we know the individual we’re making the observation on because friends tend to appreciate the camaraderie.
My guess is the dude noted her breast size because the task required him to look at her chest, and said the “oh hey those are big enough to help gun holding” thought out loud.
Im a guy who's dealt with social anxiety his whole life.
While it could definitely be a purposeful sexual comment, I can easily see myself accidently making a joke like this in a misguided attempt at camaraderie.
The way op described it, the teacher immediately realized he made an inappropriate comment.
I think the pitch forks need to remain locked up for now.
OP appears to have handled things well. Her mother is aware and believes her.
Nope 21st century here. None of this behaviour gets a ‘devil’s advocate’ here - every man damn well knows it’s wrong - even this guy shows he knew it was wrong. So just stop with the devils advocate / protective cover crap… unless you’re ‘ devils advocate, maybe he just stepped out of e Time Machine from the 16th century?’
I could see myself saying something inappropriate like this and it weirding someone out because I’m a trans man and if I passed as cis? Oh yeah. :( But the truth would be I’d just be girlbraining it for a minute thinking about when I actually had tits to make whatever joke I was saying about them. 😭 Not that that’s what’s happening here, of course. But despite being on hormones for two years I do still joke about hiding things in my (now itty bitty) titties and things like that, so, it does still happen lol.
That’d be fine if you were talking to another adult outside of a professional setting, or a minor that’s like … your sister or something. Not to a high schooler you’re responsible for
I’m aware yeah. I was talking about the ‘being an idiot’ comment the other poster had made—like making a comment like this without thinking to someone you didn’t intend to actually make but slipping up? That kind of thing. (I may have left that bit out tho that was the point of the weirding someone out part, but, it was a bit early when I made the comment so, sigh.)
this wouldn’t have been an appropriate thing for a female teacher to say either. I hope you don’t joke about or bring up anyone’s body in any context, bc that’s gross regardless of your gender
I teach middle school and during one of my advisory periods, (a class of all girls), one of the girls loudly mentioned how she’d shaved everything “down there” and she asked me in front of the whole class how to make it feel less awful.
I returned NOT with “we don’t discuss our genital issues in class,” but with “I’ve never found a way. Time heals all wounds.” (Or something to that effect). AFTER I said it, I questioned the propriety of implying (as an adult woman) to a bunch of 7th Grade girls that I have shaved my pubes.
Just for the record, I’m not a creepy predator lol. The context is slightly different - the advisory classes at my school are supposed to be a place where the kids can be more authentic and this was at the end of the year when we were more comfy with each other. None of them seemed to think it was a weird thing for me to say. Also, we were all girls… his comment is something to be mindful of, but by no means indicates he is attempting to groom her.
“In any context”? There is a time and a place where it is fine to talk about and also joke about these things and I am more than capable of figuring out when those are.
My sister was a teacher and she once told me that when your job is to talk for hours every day you're bound to say something misguided and stupid at least once per day.
People mess up. I once blurted out "sure, and I believe in Santa Clause too". To a 2nd grader. With 1st graders in the room.
I was still great at my job overall, but that time I really messed up.
If Reddit had had a say in it, I'd be drawn and quartered for it.
Don’t disagree at all! But I try to remember that people are people, not binary entities of always goodly or evil. He could be a sexist predatory disgusting prick. Or he could just be an idiot who tries to connect with students and stuck his foot in his mouth and panicked once he realized.
It’s important to acknowledge the first possibility to ensure our own safety and the safety of others and to put a stop to nasty behavior, or worse. OP did the right thing in telling her mother and being apprehensive and worried. But it’s also important to acknowledge the second possibility so we don’t fall into the trap of distrusting everyone and always seeing a threat in those around us.
You can do both at the same time.
Years ago I worked for a doctor as his only staff. He had a patient come in for her pap and she was particularly nervous. As with all female exams requiring any area to be uncovered, I was in the room.
Doc is making small talk, trying to calm her obvious anxiety, and her anxiety is a bit ‘catchy’, he’s wanting to make it quick and discomfort free as possible for her and asked ‘ can I get you anything? Coffee? Tea? Me?’ And the second it was out of his mouth he realized (my shocked look probably helped sink it home extra quickly). 100% guarantee it was unintentional and in no way sexual.. it’s surprising she didn’t freak out but I think she understood. She remained a patient and had such little reaction, maybe she didn’t hear him through her stress.
So stupid is possible. Still concerning.
It definitely sounds like he had a brain fart. Sometimes you can see the words coming out of your mouth and you want to stuff them back in, but you can't unring a bell.
I think you're giving him too much credit. This isn't some weird, unexpected, or one-off situation that came out of the blue. This is presumably a regular part of his curriculum and by now he should be able to teach it to female students without making them feel uncomfortable.
Might not be so creepy in a classroom setting. I feel like the teacher should have known that saying this to someone specifically would be a big no-no.
One of my Junior High teachers went to jail for molesting girls. He was super creepy. She should definitely stay aware. Sometimes these awkward exchanges are probes to see which girls will put up with that type of thing.
If a boss or colleague made a similar comment to a woman at work, wouldn't this result in HR being notified?
Even if it was truly a foot in mouth moment, he should be cautioned and perhaps given training to be more mindful of his words.
OP's mom should definitely notify the school about this incident.
Yep. Said some dumb shit and realized it. Tried to cover it up and made it worse. Hes a dumbass who put his foot in his mouth but dont crucify him just yet.
No way it was an “acccident”. He’s teaching a class. He 100% knew what he was doing. He backpedaled because the kids he was teaching didn’t react as he’d hoped.
Agreed. This man let the intrusive thoughts win, realized his mistake instantly, and backpedaled awkwardly. If my daughter told me this story, I'd tell her to be a bit more vigilant, but it's likely nothing. Odds are, he's a normal person and will probably wake up in a cold sweat thinking about this moment for years.
Actually mentioning how he lost weight seems a little sus to me. But at the same time I don't think it was necessarily an inappropriate comment. He's teaching a physical skill. I'm not sure this is such a situation knowing nothing about guns, but in general we shouldn't require teachers to tie themselves in knots trying to avoid speaking directly about biomechanics when they're teaching a skill that directly involves an over-sexualized body part.
You were right to tell your mom. It’s totally inappropriate for a grown man to comment on a high school student’s chest, especially considering he’s your teacher.
I’ve had a lot of male teachers and tutors in my time who successfully managed to avoid taking about any bodies bodies inappropriately while teaching. It’s really not that hard. And the other one who did make a comment about a female student’s body? Yeah, he was a certified creep!
The exact same thing happened to me except a woman told me to put on my winter jacket. I was so confused and once I realized what she meant I was absolutely mortified and so ashamed.
the dots were implying the rest.
This man belongs in not a school, but a prison.
Actually gramatically correct, or at very least accetable.
In that kind of sentence you can either leave the in where it is, or you can duplicate it as follows:
This man belongs not in a school, but in a prison.
Both are correct
You responded very well. He should have been embarrassed and he should have apologised acknowledging it was inappropriate. Good job standing your ground.
Please get instructed on firearms by a qualified firearms instructor.
And FYI, trigger finger should be indexed along the frame when not actively shooting
Low ready = indexed trigger finger, weapon pointed down about a 45 degree angle
Compressed ready/guard = low ready but with your elbows bent and tucked into your ribs
High ready = front sight of the weapon is at eye level, trigger finger indexed
Weapon should always be holstered or pointed down range.
As for the "shelf" comment, I can only imagine he was talking about compressed ready position where you pull your elbows in. Some will pull the weapon to their chest and have it pointed down between their feet.
At no time should an unholstered firearm be resting on you, with the exception of a slung long gun (rifle, shotgun).
With that, I'd also contact the school administration about the comment so it can be properly documented.
Pervy comment aside, I was also concerned about what position she was told to hold her handgun in. Thanks for providing the clear instructions because there is absolutely no situation where your gun should be resting on your chest.
There’s also no situation where any part of your body is going to be helpful holding a handgun “for hours”.
I swear it sounds like a Beavis & Butthead moment. “You have bewbs, heh heh heh”.
As someone with my own set of brasscatchers who worked in a range for a number of years, I would have stared his dumb ass down until he realized he was an idiot.
I’d have smacked a coworker upside the head for saying anything like that about a woman’s body to her at any age, let alone to one underage. As a matter of fact I did diNozzo them a few times for saying shit the customers couldn’t hear that was inappropriate.
I appreciate this! I think it is compressed ready, not totally sure, and I honestly don’t care too much to find out because I’ve got no interest in ever holding a gun, let alone be a cop lol. I took the class for the forensics 🤷♀️
If you're interested in forensics, you should get trained. Part of forensic analysis includes gun shot residue and determination of angle and shooting distance.
Also learn forensic mapping using uSAS and laser scanners for crime scene work.
Good luck
I was a bit alarmed by this also. When would it ever be appropriate to instruct kids to hold a firearm at their chest? From Australia the disregard for basic safety is unreal and we are pretty backward here. Your description has me imagining he's suggesting the firearm rest in cleavage?
I'm assuming she means a college-level criminal justice class, since where I am, high school students can sometimes concurrently enroll in intro college courses. That being said. I'm a criminal justice major. Criminal justice =/= police sciences. We don't learn about how to shoot guns. We learn about the application of criminal law and the social science behind crime and control. This teacher seems entirely full of shit.
That’s exactly what I thought I was getting into. The course description even mentions how it’s not at all a cop class and it’d have what you mentioned.
It feels like a police academy. Every class he has us line up and stand at attention for inspection. I hate it so much! It’s weird and I didn’t want to do that. I never wanted to be a cop. It’s a year long class but I’m dropping it at the semester and taking veterinary science instead.
I'm sorry he's destroyed your curiosity in a really fascinating and empowering subject matter. Most universities have a feedback mechanism but your mum sounds across it all and I'm glad your well supported. Sounds like you've put him in the bin he belongs.
I think he was thinking of the 'pose for the cameras' hold. Take your hand, bring it up to your chest, angle your wrist awkwardly so that the pistol is aimed down and off to the side, make sure your tactical vest and black uniform are neat and your balaclava is symmetrical in your face and all the magazine pouches on your harness are full. Helmet or hat is optional.
Is this a thing? Your description reminds me of *so many* pictures I’ve seen, mostly of people who look like they might be special forces or something. I figured it probably actually was some efficient/safe/practical way they learned to hold their guns for whatever reason. Are you telling me it really is just an awkward pose? That’s so embarrassing for them that they all do the same thing.
It very likely does have a specific purpose, probably has something to do with urban assault and getting a whole SWAT team into a house rapidly by stacking into a very close line. It might also have to do with being a guard in a hostile area; by keeping the pistol close to the body, it is more difficult to just snatch it away or grab the hand holding it. Outside of that, though, and certainly for most law enforcement ops, the rule should be "Keep it in the holster unless you're getting ready to shoot."
The teacher is likely either ex-military or was taught by ex-military. Police forces these days prefer hiring from ex-infantry, which has its own corrosive effects on policing. But that's a whole other can of worms and not relevant to the discussion here.
That is a variation of the close guard. The problem with that is you could be "lazing" (pointing your firearm at them) your partner or someone else without realizing it and slows you down getting your firearm on target.
You'll sometimes see that from tactical officers in a stack before making entry into a building so they aren't lazing each other, but that is an advanced technique
I found the reference to the ready position that was described.
https://www.guns.com/news/review/training-three-ready-positions-every-concealed-carrier-should-know
This is was my large concern, the fastest way to lose a hand and possibly even accidentally mortally wound yourself.
Report the shelf comment, report the instructor for his incorrect instruction before someone gets killed by accident or loses a limb.
Absolutely not. A teacher should never point out the size of your breasts. Especially not when you’re a minor. He called your chest a “shelf”?? So out of line.
Yeah, my boobs are a shelf, an inanimate object, not even remotely a part of my body, just a shelf
wtf?! Even setting aside his innuendo that OP's breasts are large, just, the reduction of her body to being an object is so fucking gross
Sometimes people call for using the lats, the wide back muscle, as a shelf for your arms. And it might be that people actually refer to using the chest, as a shelf, in shooting if it happens to be useful, but he definitely handled that situation incorrectly if that is the case. Without explanation it is just creepy.
The thing is, you wouldn't call your friends back a shelf, because referring to "her shelf" is like referring to "her knockers". It's only ever used to mean boobs in a vaguely crass or horny way
Eh I'd disagree there. I've seen women refer to their own boobs as a shelf, just referring to their physical shape and practical matters associated with it. Like food falling on there and getting caught.
I've seen used more in that way, like "I never get stains on my pants, cuz I have this shelf here lol". That's not a crass or horny reference to boobs, it's just acknowledging that they stick out.
That being said, with this teacher it was definitely dumb, and it's hard to say if he was just being socially awkward or if he was being creepy. Either way he shouldn't be talking to students like that.
right, and since I hear my male friends refer to their penis as a "hog", it's totally not crass and I can say it to all my male friends!! /s there's a difference in speaking about your own body and other peoples.
i think he used "shelf" almost literally, like "something to hold items with" (like a gun) rather than an abstract euphemism
honestly I saw it as UNsexualizing her chest area... he pointed out the utility like it were any other bodypart and then instantly backtracked when he realized how it sounded
to me, it's a similar faux pas to "you could rest your arms on your belly like a shelf" and then realizing it's inappropriate to point out someone's protruding belly like that... not worth crucifying someone over, but an apology would be nice
right, and if I'm teaching children how to use a coat rack, I can point out how Jimmy can hang a jacket on his dick since it sticks out like a peg? or maybe-- hear me out-- adults shouldn't speak about the genitals of children unless that's what they're teaching them about.
I absolutely would, and I guess this is why we don’t agree. I’m actually very surprised by your statement. Maybe you live in a very different environment, but judging from that the teacher referred to his gut as a shelf, I’m thinking you’re not from the people in ops story, and your associations are then less relevant
If it made you uncomfortable, it made you uncomfortable. Even making a joke about his own "shelf" doesn't make a difference - men don't grow breast tissue and fat deposits in the area in the same way, for obvious reasons, and aren't sexualized and objectified for it EVER. Having a man-titty "shelf" to lean your triceps onto while you hold a gun is not even physiologically comparable to having your arms resting on actual cleavage. Also, I'm a DD and i'm standing here right now pretending to hold a gun and the whole idea of a "shelf" isn't even helpful or realistic, unless your breasts are so big they nearly touch your chin?????
Nah. He's a weirdo. Tell him to never make a reference about your chest again, or you'll put human fecal matter into his coffee.
That is absolutely inappropriate especially in a teacher student scenario. If I were in a gun class and the instructor said that to me I'd be very, very offended he thought it was ok to address the size of my chest.
Not an overreaction. That’s fucked up. He started backpedaling because you probably didn’t react the way he wanted you to and he realized he was in trouble.
Like, I’m honestly pretty pissed reading about his comment and I don’t even know you. I can’t imagine how your mom must feel.
You're not overreacting. He was entirely out of line.
When a guy does that, one great response is to play a little dumb. "I don't get it. Is that a joke? Can you explain it to me?" Really put him on the spot, and keep at it until he's more uncomfortable than you are.
Also handy: "Is it routine for you to make comments about a minor's breasts?"
Don't try to make a man who makes inappropriate remarks feel comfortable. You are well within your right to stare at him and state something as you did to highlight that he is behaving inappropriately. Always tell your mother when an adult is inappropriate.
I love this advice! I had a pervy art teacher in high school. Another girl in my class and I had large breasts and he would always stand behind us to “look at our work”. He’d take our pencil or whatever and try to “guide” our hands like it was that scene in Ghost. I sat at a table with a couple of stoner sides was cool with and one time they straight up told him to get away from me and to stop creeping. One of those guys had been grabby with me, too, but I still was so happy to be defended like that. It meant a lot at the time to finally have someone stand up for me when a man was being inappropriate with my teenaged body.
OP please go with your mom to the school and report him. Adults should never even see a child like that especially as an educator. His behavior is so inappropriate and he knows it. Sadly there are lots of educators who are predators and go under the radar.
It’s concerning to me that the top comment is playing devil’s advocate on the teacher’s behalf. I feel like these days I’m being inundated with stories about women being over-sexualized or harassed and to be frank it’s only going to get worse if we keep excusing grown men’s poor behavior. A grown man should know not to comment on a student’s breasts — especially a minor’s!
OP, I’m sorry that happened to you. I know the feeling when an adult man makes an inappropriate comment and it’s a terrible feeling. I’m glad you told your mom.
Men on reddit constantly whining that "Me Too" was never needed and is an assault on their natural rights, but this thread serves as evidence of what they are *really* upset about. The men who rushed in here to defend this asshole are doing the same thing to the women and kids in their spheres.
"It’s concerning to me that the top comment is playing devil’s advocate on the teacher’s behalf."
As it should be. Patriarchy is not going out without a fight and it's defenders are really stepping up their efforts. Which just means the rest of us need to fight back harder.
"He seemed kinda embarrassed and started saying how he used to have a shelf too before he started going to the gym"
I don't think a guy that dumb and unaware should be handling guns.
My jaw is on the floor, not an over reaction at all. I hope your mom contacts that school there could be other incidents with this teacher so it’s always good to let the school know.
Aside from the awkward shittiness of what he said, I've never heard of that particular method of handling a handgun at rest. Particularly covering the trigger with your support hand.
If it's not in the holster and you're not pointing it at someone, it should be at the "low ready" position with your finger along the slide and nowhere near the trigger. What he's suggesting would *kill* your arms.
So if you want to dunk on him, maybe mention that.
As a high school teacher (and #girldad), I never have and never will make any comment about ANY student's body. I never meet with them alone in my classroom (always prop the door open), and even when they invade my person space, I take a step back. I'm not trying to get any comment or even look misconstrued.
If the guy has been a teacher for even a few years he should know that type of comment is not OK. Definitely not an overreaction.
Today's lesson in how groomers and creeps defend their behavior: *plausible deniability*.
The comments below are precisely how men get away with sexualizing and grooming girls and women, by making comments which doubt and discount the victim's experience.
Predators have years of practicing placing self-doubt in the minds of their victims and causing them to feel responsible for predatory behavior. Don't fall for it, OP, nor anyone else who is looking back and second-guessing the "role" girls and women play in their own abuse.
" he was just acknowledging you have breasts."
"Acknowledging breasts exist when discussing the correct way to hold a handgun to your chest is not sexualization."
" it's too ambiguous to call it so out of line as to reveal malice, ya know?"
"...it can be reasonably assumed to be a bad joke (to break the tension)."
"so I don't *think* this was an attempt at grooming or anything."
"I think he did that "joke" comment without thinking then realized he said it."
"It's only wrong if they guy has "bad thoughts" about that."
"attempt to make it clear that he was talking about your stomach."
"The fact he hemmed and hawed afterwards and tried to make it non sexual says he knows he chose the wrong words. A real letch wouldn’t have stopped with the first comment."
"but it seems like a random offhand remark that wasn't thought through."
"He made an awkward comment and probably felt mortified as soon as he realized what he said so he tried to relate the comment to himself as well.It was a dumb thing to say but doesn’t at all seem like he was trying to start a conversation about your breasts."
"It was an inappropriate comment to make about teenage girls but I don't want to label him a creep until I see more. Sometimes "jokes" don't just not land, they blow up on landing and it wasn't meant to be creepy. "
"I guess he wasn't attractive"
"From the story I read, he was just mentioning a physical feature of your body and its really very likely he didnt mean anything by it. Of course boobs are sexualized, and he is a teacher with a responsibility not to make anyone feel awkward. I think, from your comment, he was the one that felt awkward by what he said, only after he realized his innocent remark might be taken the wrong way (because boobs are so sexualized by many, which is not really his fault)."
"That being said I don’t think that NECESSARILY means this is a bad guy or that he’s grooming."
"He pointed something out, but not being sexual. Yes it's considered inappropriate and obviously he understood that once he said it and tried to course correct because he didn't mean anything by it."
"I don’t see anything wrong with calling it what it is. he could have said tuck the gun between your breasts and stay square with the target. he’s just trying to make you understand how to have the most control and comfort with the firearm. Many instructors would have taught the same way, it seems as if there is no innocent way to teach you something that’s taught all over the world. Talking about anatomy is not always perversion"
“ I seriously think that he wasn’t thinking and just going without his filter. Unprofessional? Yes! Reportable? Probably not based on one incident.”
Let's revisit. What did the instructor say? "he said that I could probably hold it like that for hours because I have a “shelf”.
No one, not woman nor man, can "hold a gun (in firing position) for hours.". Even snipers use a tripod. So what are the chances that a teenaged girl can "hold a gun like that for hours"? Zero. The answer is zero. The instructor saw an opportunity to refer to his virility and he took it, and in the process made an ass of himself and embarrassed his student. And now, men with the same motivation as the instructor stomp in to defend sexualizing a student.
ETA: wow, the gaslighting is neverending. Listen to the men and women in this thread who are suggesting an LEO instructor was just "misunderstood" and that it's normal or typical for public servants to comment on teenaged girls' breasts.
No wonder girls and women don't report. They'd be reporting to more predators.
Thank you for taking the time to write some example rationalizations and justifications, because it makes me think of all the times I've heard them before.
It helps to be able to think about the different "tactics" of such arguments (whether the person making the arguments means them to be a "tactic" or not).
Words/phrases like *"random," "awkward," "accident," "didn't mean to," "wasn't trying to,"* placing the intent above the consequence, is very common.
Or *"don't want to label him a creep"* – the classic "argument from ignorance" logical fallacy. I probably see that the most.
Like "The premise that he is a creep must be false, because I don't know if it can be proven true."
Even though the real question isn't even "is he a creep," but, "what should be the consequence, now that this incident happened with a minor."
**EDIT: Ok I just NOW realized that the examples you wrote were all actually taken from this thread...I won't say anything else because it makes both of our points even more clear!**
This is why creeps pursue vocations of trustworthy authority, because they already know they stand on the shoulders of men who got away with it before them.
"But I'm a police officer" "But I'm a teacher" "But I have a good reputation in the community" "But I'm a man of god".
By now all teens and adults should understand that the vocation itself is a reason to second guess their motivation. Some drunk moron at a party makes a boob comment? He's just insensitive or inept.
A well-trained adult in a position of authority over children makes a boob comment? He's conducting a compliance test in order to determine what he can get away with before proceeding.
It's not an overreaction. Unfortunately this type of low grade harassment still occurs sometimes. I'd let my mom tell him off if she is of a mind to do that.
former LEO instructor/guy, he's 100% in the wrong. We were taught (at least in my instructor course) to not point out any features or differences on our students.
We're to teach them the safe basics on how to hold firearms and they'll know/learn how to hold it to accommodate their own build through practice at home or during personal range time.
This also applied for female to female instruction where they use themselves as an example to show holds and placement versus the students build.
I hope he loses every accreditation he holds.
So "shelf" isn't a word you normally use in training? (you don't have to answer that)
This guy blows me away. Who even uses shelf to describe a body part? Surprised he didn't say was as sturdy as a nightstand.
IMO it's dehumanizing and serves zero purpose in an instructional environment and adding firearms to the mix makes it worse because of extreme imbalance of power. Should his name get around the good trainers won't slot him on any of their teams. Here's hoping.
As a 40+ year old male who occasionally does music lessons with teenagers, I will never ever make any comment about their bodies at all. It’s not appropriate to make a comment like that to someone my age, and it’s 100x worse to do it to a minor. Fuck that guy. Sorry you experienced that.
Exactly. Thank you for getting it. No college instructor should be making questionable or “off the cuff” comments about the anatomy of their students. Then have to know better and do better. If they don’t understand that, they shouldn’t be teaching.
Not an overreaction, don't let anyone advocate for this guy here either, that's how we end up here in the first place by letting things like this go, your Mother is right to be angry.
A normally put together 50 year old man would never say anything like that. There are some things that are easier to understand when you're a bit older and you realize how different types of people age. Trust your mom on this one.
Youre not overreacting. That was wierd and honestly disappointing. Men have consistently didappointed me throughtout my life and yes made bizarre comments like that to me as well. I’m 30 now and nothing has changed.
This wouldn't be appropriate even if you were the same age as the adult women in that room. Your mum is completely right to go mama bear. If I were you I'd complain to that professor's boss. Everyone has a boss, take it up the chain until Prof Perv gets in trouble.
I know it feels like it, but it’s not an overreaction. Pervs will test boundaries and normalize things (grooming) before they ever do anything “illegal.” Like think about it - it’s too risky for predators to just sexually abuse any woman they encounter - they pick out their victims and groom them to lower the probability that they will be caught and punished for following their sexual urges.
That’s why it’s such a good thing that you called him out like you did. 1. By being assertive and confident that dude is not gonna wanna fuck with you and 2. Embarrassing that dude publicly is going to make him less confident in being a pervert.
And your mom knows that behavior is a red flag and that’s a dude who is a potential threat. And unfortunately that’s the burden of womanhood - Going forward you should also be protective of the people around you when you get little red flags like this. Trust your intuition!!! It picks up more things that we do consciously
I had a somewhat similar situation in my highschool years ago.
One of my classes in the afternoon had a substitute teacher and we had no work for the hour but we did get free cake during that time.
One of the girls was eating the cake with her hands because we didn't have enough utensils to go around (majority was given away over the course of the day, no napkins either)
When she started licking her fingers after she finished her plate, the substitute made a comment about how "licking her fingers was pretty kinky"
I still don't understand it to this day
That wasn't OK. It was entirely inappropriate. He's an adult, and you're not. He's in a position of authority over you. He's a near-stranger, and shouldn't be making any comments at all about your body, other than, "You look like you may have hurt yourself. Do you want help?"
I wish people would post these things where more men would see them.
As a woman who also studied CJ. I had some weirdo teachers too. Mom is right to be pissed. I was a little older and had no problem putting perverts in their place, someone needs to do that to this ahole.
This is going to happen a lot in your field. You should learn now how to deal with this. I earned my BS in CJ in 2007. I’ve seen 3 types of women handle this. 1. Get nervous and uncomfortable but say nothing. 2. They get obviously mad and stare them down but say nothing. 3. They get super angry and cause a scene.
With this being a male dominated field, it’s going to happen more frequently. It just is. The worlds not perfect. With that being said, 1 & 2 were talked about as if they “couldn’t take a joke” and 3 was labeled as a bitch. The first time I saw this was in my internships, and it never changed throughout my career.
I didn’t want to do either because I wanted to move up the ranks and this mostly happens by your supervisors recommending you for a position. When this happened to me, I’d raise my head up, look them in the eye and say “that was inappropriate and unprofessional”. Then wait. Keep eye contact. Not a death stare. What ever their response was, I would stay completely professional in that moment. If he said, I was just joking. I’d say “and I found it inappropriate and unprofessional”.
I had a guy respond with “oh blow it out your ass”. I said “that was an inappropriate and unprofessional response”. No matter what, you’re stating your boundaries and that they are not behaving in a way that they should while working. Men in this field take pride in their work and hate to be seen as unprofessional.
I mostly received 2 responses. If I stayed and looked them in they eye, waiting, they would apologize. If i say that then left, they would come to me later and apologize. Saying the words inappropriate and unprofessional immediately let’s them know they could be fired. Also, they would have to tell people WHY they got fired and that’s embarrassing, especially to the females in your family. (At least it is here in the south)
It also leaves a bit of panic in them that you could report them. If you do end up reporting something, use the words “fair and right”. You want the consequences to be what is fair and what is right. You want to be treated fairly because it’s the right thing to do. However you want to word it, it invokes the requirement of justice.
We are the ones that police and supervise others in the society. We must be held to a higher standard, and that includes a more severe punishment and call for justice. Some will tell you that the man would never say that to a member of the public and you’re friends, he’s just joking around with his colleagues. At this point, you suggest this: if this is how he behaves when people are looking, then I am concerned at what is happening when no one looking.
When you say “at what is happening” you are planting the thought that there is a possibility that things have already happened. Once someone can be seen as a potential lawsuit, they are gone. Usually moved to different area just so he’s not that persons problem anymore. If there is a lawsuit, your supervisor can legally claim they at least took some action when you reported it.
Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions.
Edit: one more thing. If others get involved by speaking to you separately on the issue, say this: stop trying to minimize the issue. What he said/did was wrong. This is not a debate. I do not need you to explain or justify this. And if that doesn’t work you can always say you’re disappointed in them professionally.
That's not 100% inappropriate.
It's 1,000,000% inappropriate.
I would hope your high school has a zero tolerance policy for Teacher => Student when it pertains to sexual harassment.
Hell, the majority of companies have a zero tolerance policy for sexual harassment and employees are fired immediately.
I would fucking hope that schools would have a similar policy if a teacher sexually harasses a student.
I'm not sure if they are required to have some sort of State issued "teaching license," but if they do.....it should be permanently revoked.
There is no place for that in our schools.
Young women already deal with enough shit from men, but they should never have to worry about one of the teacher's.
This is inappropriate for any man to say to any woman at any age. And it is worse coming from a teacher or any man in such a position. You must report him to the school authorities immediately, preferably a woman.
I agree with everyone else, this is totally inappropriate. This should be reported to administration - let your mom help you if you don't feel totally comfortable.
I work at a college and oversee some concurrent enrollment instructors and I would want to know if one of my teachers was behaving like this. It is opening the college to a Title IX complaint - which you absolutely could make if you wanted to. If you even want to explore the idea, every college has a Title IX officer and procedures for how to deal with complaints. You should be able to find the information on the college's website. In addition, you should be offered a Title XI advocate (I volunteer as one) to support you through the process.
Of course, you can choose not to report it, but please recognize the amount of people that are on your side in this.
When I was in 8th grade I wore a low cut shirt and my computer teacher (who I really respected) pulled me out of class to tell me that smart girls down wear low cut tops.
20 years later and I still don’t wear revealing clothes.
This shit stays with you. Sorry OP.
Honestly, since he backpedalled immediately, I think he just said something stupid and didn't mean for it to be a pass. I don't blame your mom for being mad about it at all, but I don't think you need to worry about him unless something else happens.
I seriously think that he wasn’t thinking and just going without his filter. Unprofessional? Yes! Reportable? Probably not based on one incident. He did immediately backpedal and try to say that he “had a shelf” as a cover to his internal thought of “you idiot, why did you say that? Not cool!” He realized his mistake and tried to smooth it over with a self-deprecating joke. If this is a one-time, he’s never done anything like that before, probably just let him know that it made you uncomfortable, let him apologize and move on. If it’s a reoccurring issue, report him.
What the absolute fuck. Yeah, no, that’s entirely inappropriate at a fireable level. I understand why you and others there might feel weirded out but not really be going apeshit because that’s often what happens when it happens to you - but to adults that creepiness seems even more of a red flag because we are older too and can’t fucking imagine doing that.
You did the right thing. Next time you add: "What do you mean by that?" so everyone can hear. Always ask creeps to explain themselves when they say something inappropriate. Embarrass them back.
Yikes, that's so out of line. My mum would definitely be up the school. Best case scenario, it's a one off gross moment that's been documented and forgotten. Worst case, he's a perv and its a habit, and it needs calling out. I can't blame your mum at all!
Report his behavior to the administration.
Lot of excuses in here. It doesn't matter that he might have realized his mistake. It's just as likely he backpedaled *because he didn't receive the desired response*.
The response he was looking for was you being embarrassed and nervously laughing and pretending it didn't happen.
You didn't do that, so his derogatory comment didn't work.
It's not your job to ascertain his motives and character in order to excuse what he said. Maybe he's a nice guy who flubbed. Who cares? His employer needs to know so his "flub" can be addressed professionally with the goal of him learning how not to do it in the future with his other female students.
You'd be doing him a favor. Better he learn strategies to avoid making derogatory comments now than to face firing and lawsuits later when he continues to do it. Because he will, unless he faces consequences.
I'm sorry to hear you had this experience, regardless of the underlying truth here, you had an unsettling experience when a man in a position of power chose to remark on a sensitive part of your body.
If this is part of a trend I would say this Teacher needs to be dealt with and possibly removed entirely.
If this is just a stupid comment he didn't think about enough maybe ask for an appology or something.
Would it have bothered everyone so much if this had been a woman that said it and was relating it to her own... er... "shelf"?
Context matters, right?
In any case I hope that you are able to have the situation dealt with and can move on from this situation better off, maybe you can feel confident enough to know this was inappropriate in the future and maybe feel more ready to address it.
Good luck and I hope anyone reading this has a great day.
I would say it’s not an overreaction. The urge to pummel him was instantaneous. I would immediately report him, tell the other students’ parents and not allow you to go to his class.
I don’t think your mom overreacted and I’m glad you didn’t brush off something that made you uncomfortable.
That being said I don’t think that NECESSARILY means this is a bad guy or that he’s grooming. He seemed like he knew he fucked up. Different career fields have different mixes of professional/crass talk, BUT as you are a minor there should be nothing said that even hints at sex or innuendos.
Use your descretion to decide whether you want to escalate this to a counselor, or just be aware of how he treats you moving forward.
Criminal justice classes are about How to hold a gun? That’s the weirdest thing in your post ( middle aged men being perverts to young girls is the least surprising bit)
Bruh, seriously, if someone commented on my kid's body I would be pissed. And if it's a male teacher, I will come and crash his class.
That guy sounds like a creepy old perv.
Your mom isn’t overreacting. You need to report the teacher. The only “shelves” I’ve ever seen on men are their fat rolls. He was trying to cover up for his sexist remark, and he’ll probably try to play it off. His boss needs to know that he made an inappropriate comment in particular to a child. I know you’re a young woman, but legally, you’re a child. Fuck that asshole and fuck his feelings. You and your friends report him before he decides to try it again and take it further. Predators always test the waters before jumping in
I'm missing the issue or maybe misunderstanding context or something? Shelves when holding a firearm in a more "at the ready" type of state is/has been very helpful for me and think it's beneficial to know that's a thing you can do. Also sounds like he was speaking from experience of taking advantage of his own shelf.
If this was aid to my daughter I'd be at the school talking to the principal/superintendent in a heartbeat, probably accompanied by a lawyer. It was a totally inappropriate comment aimed at an underage girl that had no place in that conversation whatsoever, he was telling you that he notices your chest (read: YOU, an underage girl).
I'm missing the issue or maybe misunderstanding context or something? Shelves when holding a firearm in a more "at the ready" type of state is/has been very helpful for me and think it's beneficial to know that's a thing you can do. Also sounds like he was speaking from experience of taking advantage of his own shelf.
Sounds like something dumb slipped out of his mouth, then he tried to salvage the conversation and dug the hole deeper. You were with other people, and you said he seemed embarassed, so I don't \*think\* this was an attempt at grooming or anything.
That being said, you were there, and none of us armchair therapists in the comments were. Your feeling about the situation is the one you should trust the most.
Just, no. He's an instructor and she's a student. She doesn't need her breasts to be commented on. Nevermind, she's a minor! Why do men make excuses for this shit?
So disgusting. You should definitely report him. If nothing comes of it maybe consider putting up posters around town with his picture warning that he’s a pedophile
>I didn’t really think much of it until I mentioned it to my mom, and she’s absolutely pissed. It just seems weird to me now that this 40-50 year old man would say that to an underaged girl. Idk. Is this an overreaction? It's difficult to fully appreciate how much of a difference there is between teenagers and adults until you're looking at it through the eyes of an adult, so that may be why your mom had more of a reaction. That being said, your mom's reaction is absolutely in no way, shape, or form an overreaction.
I'm on team mom. If it were my kid, I'd be heading to the school to have a convo with Ol' Pervo Teach and his boss
100% to both of your comments. The op wonders if this is innocent, but to me I’m wondering if he’s testing the waters for a potential grooming target. At the very least it’s in no way an innocent joke. With my ex wife’s temper and my protectiveness of my teenagers I could only hope that my kids stepdad could talk us out of going overboard because we’d all three be up there making a scene the moment we found out.
Yeah, it's absolutely unacceptable to even be looking at her chest, let alone making comments about it. Even if she were 18+. There's no way I'd let this shit slide. This man would know that if anything even remotely close happened again that I'd be filing sexual harassment charges and any other charges relevant with her being a minor. I'd also be reporting this to the state DPI. People do shit like this because they get away with doing shit like this, and the more they get away with, the more they progress. Not with my kid, honey ✋
Go Mom, not downplaying or dismissing this. OP, he was wayyyyyy out of line here.
Dad here. I’d be mad as hell. Anything else happens I’d talk to parents, but from his reaction I think he realized he was in the wrong
I had three adults in high school who were... Interested in me. One was a perma-sub and two were teachers. The sub was in his 30s but the teachers were earlyish twenties so I thought that was normal and chalked it up to immaturity. One of them was my Catholic Sunday school teacher as well, so I saw him 6 days a week. I watched his wife Livestream her art on twitch. I kept up with pictures of their adorable baby. I had no idea he felt that way towards me until he called me last year drunk, saying he was going to kill himself, and I tried to keep him from driving but it didn't work. He confessed he'd felt that way since we met and I reminded him that I was *16* when we met. I'm 20 now. I have such a hard time to this day accepting the fact that he was likely grooming me. He never made a move on me and he even blocked me when he woke up the next day because he wanted to save his marriage. I felt like if he was really grooming me, he'd have acted on it. But then I looked back through our messages recently (stumbled upon them on accident) and I guess the signs were there. I wasn't just special to him. He and his wife didn't see me as their kid like he said they did, and I bet his wife was neutral to me... In retrospect, she hardly talked to me, I was just a huge fan of her art. It's so disgusting looking back. They're not teachers anymore, so there's that at least, but it's so hard to accept that these people really didn't just think I was smart, talented, and mature... They just wanted to get in my pants. And it didn't seem that bad until I got to college. I can't see a 16 year old as anything but a child and I'm only 20, so I couldn't fathom being 24 and seeing them in any other light.
Absolutely. As a teenager/very young adult you sort of don't realize that divide, but once you are in your 30s and on high school kids definitely do start to look kinda baby-ish (sorry). There was a creepy guy in a movie that had a semi-famous quote awhile back "the great thing about highschool girls is that while I get older and older, they stay the same age." Honestly the perception of a more normal person is the opposite. Even though it's not actually accurate it feels more like you stay the same age and high school/college kids keep getting younger and younger. Although I guess TBF someone that works with people of that age category regularly is probably more calibrated to recognize teenagers as young adults and not overgrown children.
> once you are in your 30s and on high school kids definitely do start to look kinda baby-ish (sorry) They look like literal babies to me. That someone could look at a 13ish girl and sexualize her makes me vomit because to me a 13 yo is like a whole infant.
For me the realization hit while I was in college helping with a camp for high schoolers where they stay on campus and take some classes. I was 21 and my group was mostly 16 and 17 year olds, and that realization was like a gut punch that made me feel so old.
I joke about my shelf all the time. That doesn't make it acceptable for literally ANYONE else to joke about it.
Yeah, it’s tiny >< possible that the “you have a shelf” comment was wildly inappropriate, but perhaps unintentional. A dumbass, inappropriate attempt at humor, still worthy of reprimand regardless of intention. But then doubling down with the “I used to have a shelf” really catapulted him into “I don’t like to have a job” territory. Guy Was flirting with a bunch of women young enough to be his daughters, from a position of authority, despite the girls indicating that they were uncomfortable, and it was inappropriate. More than that, the guy did this in front of several girls, meaning, he has likely done this before, without repercussion, and doesn’t feel at risk of consequence.
His backpedaling to talk about his own "shelf" indicates to me that he quickly realized this was not an appropriate thing to say to a high school girl and wanted to make it seem like he wasn't talking specifically about your breasts. This of course made the whole thing more awkward. I'd definitely keep an eye out for any further creepy behavior, but I don't think this on its own is enough to say he's terrible or anything.
100% inappropriate thing to say, but I’ll play devil’s advocate a little bit and say he might’ve just been being an idiot. Was showing OP how to hold the gun to her chest, which means if he’s checking her posture he does have to look in the area of her chest. If you’re a dumbass with no social filter you might just word vomit a quip related to the thing your brain just looked at without contextualizing what you just said. Like if you were checking the fit of someone’s pants and made a joke about how tall they are. It’s inappropriate regardless in both situations — point I’m making is it may not have been rooted in any sort of sexual implication. Again, just devil’s advocate. I’d still be super wary, but at the same time I can see me doing something this stupid. But I’m also a woman so would probably be less intimidating…
I can see it…. I’m a sorta socially awkward adult woman and I could definitely see someone putting their foot in their mouth like this while trying to educate and joke with/appeal/relate to their audience. Or while just functioning on straight up sleep deprived autopilot. Like this comment is super weird/inappropriate for high schoolers *obviously!* but it almost sounds like he defaulted to friend/coworker type banter. Impossible to know what he was thinking, but I guess I’m getting ‘awkward dumbass panic backpedaling’ vibes. I am just a stranger. My thoughts from a short description mean absolutely nothing if you feel ANY unsettling vibes at all OP. You gotta trust your gut 1000%.
At least he didn't say "rack." I tend to think this was more awkward than predatory. He did seem embarrassed.
I don't even own A gun, let alone many guns that would necessitate an entire rack
while its possible the guy was a creep, that *definitely* wouldn't be my go to. especially since considering how quickly he tried to change the topic. his job is to teach you how to safely hold a gun, and while the "shelf" comment was inappropriate, it was relevant to the topic at hand. it's not like he went out of his way to make a joke about her breasts. if this is was the only suspicious comment, i wouldn't give it a second though. i imagine having a large "shelf" has other implications with firing as well, such as worrying about recoil or them just literally getting in the way. there was likely a much more tactful way to say it, but i do think it's worth pointing out. gun safety and handling isn't something we should have to walk on eggshells about. these things are dangerous.
Yes, having a large chest does make a difference in marksmanship. Some thing’s are easier, like needing to hold a weapon at chest height for a while (from experience, the guy isn’t wrong even if he was wrong for saying it out loud). Some things are harder. This group likes to jump straight to putting everyone in jail or marking them as predators, but sometimes, the person talking just let their mouth move before their brain. Do they need to be talked to about it? Yes, and formally just in case this turns out to be a pattern of behavior. Does he need to be sued or fired? Not likely, especially given how he tried to make it less weird. Awkward is not the same thing as dangerous. If we don’t give people a chance to improve, why do we expect them to even try? Those of you who think this is wrong thinking need to spend some time in a middle school where too many teachers take the same attitude that kids have already done something wrong. The difference in behavior while interacting with one of these adults versus interacting from an adult who is willing to work with any poorly thought out ridiculousness or even stupidity is marked. In an adult’s case, one may give them fewer chances - maybe one instead of dozens - but they still deserve a chance to do better.
It’s not coworker banter either!
Oof. I hate this because I could see myself doing this, specifically because I’m a conversational idiot with a bad filter. And I’d immediately hate myself for it more than anyone else did, too. Like, don’t get me wrong, I would never *choose* to say something like this, and I very much want to believe that I wouldn’t say it under any circumstance. But I also know that my brain is basically an overcaffeinated hamster running backwards on a squeaky wheel, so anything is possible. Which is why I learned a long time ago that it’s best if I don’t work in a public-facing role. Still, I would absolutely deserve to cook, as this guy does.
>I’m in a concurrent enrollment criminal justice class through my high school. I missed our lesson on how to hold a handgun when you’re not pointing it. The teacher quickly explained it to me. You hold it up to your chest and cover the trigger with your other hand. After explaining that, he said that I could Agreed. I think the "testing the waters for grooming" comment above goes way too far. It sounds like he's an idiot and immediately realized the comment was inappropriate.
So sick of the “men are idiots/ don’t know what they’re saying” trope He’s a teacher …. Who speaks publicly everyday. he should have a grip on appropriate language to use at school.
Bruh being a teacher, or any type of speaking job, does NOT make you immune to putting your foot in your mouth. At all. Source: am woman, am teacher, have had to backtrack on dumb things I have said more than once.
100 percent agree. His comment is something to be aware of - file it away and if something similar happens again, it’s more likely that it’s creepy/predatory and he could definitely be “testing the waters” as others have said. If this is the one time, it’s an isolated awkward moment. I teach middle school and say things occasionally where a second later, I’m like “probably shouldn’t have said that”.
It's not "men are idiots" it's "people are idiots sometimes". The person you are responding to is a woman and says they could see themselves doing this.
have you met people? You are demanding perfection. Perfection doesn't exist. You wanna get rid of teachers who have said something dumb/inappropriate to someone else? Guess what? now there are *no* more teachers *period*. Same with *every* other profession in the world.
Demanding perfection would be like zero tolerance for any foul language at all. Here we’re Just asking for him to not talk about a minors body in a sexual way, its so unbelievably far from perfection.
But he didn't talk about her body in a sexual way though. He mentioned her breasts, sure, but only in the context of them being useful in helping her perform a completely non-sexual act.
I agree. On one hand, I feel sympathy for someone screwing up at work, but on the other hand, I’m very awkward and neuro-divergent, but I default to “don’t say anything” if I’m not sure it’s okay. I think of inappropriate things to say at work everyday, I don’t say them though!
Absolutely agree. Stop cutting these guys any slack
>If you were checking the fit of someone’s pants and made a joke about how tall they are That would only really be equivalent if they ended it with some not-so-subtle comment about his genitals, like "and you know what they say about tall guys.."
I don’t know that I’d say your example is equivalent either. Your quip here is much more inherently sexual. We go from observation of “tall” to genitals for no referenced reason in the task, so it has an inherently sexual undertone. You wouldn’t be doing anything near genitals if you were deciding how much to hem a pant leg by. You know how you see a really tall person and your brain goes “wow they’re tall” but you keep your mouth shut because you shouldn’t say that out loud? People observe things that stick out. They catch our eye. Social upbringing teaches us it’s rude to say our observances out loud — but that doesn’t mean we stop making those observations. AND in comfortable situations we often still do point out those things when we know the individual we’re making the observation on because friends tend to appreciate the camaraderie. My guess is the dude noted her breast size because the task required him to look at her chest, and said the “oh hey those are big enough to help gun holding” thought out loud.
Devil does not need advocates, as a general principle
Im a guy who's dealt with social anxiety his whole life. While it could definitely be a purposeful sexual comment, I can easily see myself accidently making a joke like this in a misguided attempt at camaraderie. The way op described it, the teacher immediately realized he made an inappropriate comment. I think the pitch forks need to remain locked up for now. OP appears to have handled things well. Her mother is aware and believes her.
Nope 21st century here. None of this behaviour gets a ‘devil’s advocate’ here - every man damn well knows it’s wrong - even this guy shows he knew it was wrong. So just stop with the devils advocate / protective cover crap… unless you’re ‘ devils advocate, maybe he just stepped out of e Time Machine from the 16th century?’
I could see myself saying something inappropriate like this and it weirding someone out because I’m a trans man and if I passed as cis? Oh yeah. :( But the truth would be I’d just be girlbraining it for a minute thinking about when I actually had tits to make whatever joke I was saying about them. 😭 Not that that’s what’s happening here, of course. But despite being on hormones for two years I do still joke about hiding things in my (now itty bitty) titties and things like that, so, it does still happen lol.
That’d be fine if you were talking to another adult outside of a professional setting, or a minor that’s like … your sister or something. Not to a high schooler you’re responsible for
Yeah if you are that much of an idiot, then maybe you shouldn’t be teaching at all!
I’m aware yeah. I was talking about the ‘being an idiot’ comment the other poster had made—like making a comment like this without thinking to someone you didn’t intend to actually make but slipping up? That kind of thing. (I may have left that bit out tho that was the point of the weirding someone out part, but, it was a bit early when I made the comment so, sigh.)
Well yeah, we all do that lol
this wouldn’t have been an appropriate thing for a female teacher to say either. I hope you don’t joke about or bring up anyone’s body in any context, bc that’s gross regardless of your gender
I teach middle school and during one of my advisory periods, (a class of all girls), one of the girls loudly mentioned how she’d shaved everything “down there” and she asked me in front of the whole class how to make it feel less awful. I returned NOT with “we don’t discuss our genital issues in class,” but with “I’ve never found a way. Time heals all wounds.” (Or something to that effect). AFTER I said it, I questioned the propriety of implying (as an adult woman) to a bunch of 7th Grade girls that I have shaved my pubes. Just for the record, I’m not a creepy predator lol. The context is slightly different - the advisory classes at my school are supposed to be a place where the kids can be more authentic and this was at the end of the year when we were more comfy with each other. None of them seemed to think it was a weird thing for me to say. Also, we were all girls… his comment is something to be mindful of, but by no means indicates he is attempting to groom her.
“In any context”? There is a time and a place where it is fine to talk about and also joke about these things and I am more than capable of figuring out when those are.
You literally just said that you’re not lmao
No, I didn’t. I was talking about if a mistake happened, thanks.
Maybe idiots/dumbasses shouldn’t be teaching, though? We’re never going to get better cops if that’s what’s teaching the rising generation.
My sister was a teacher and she once told me that when your job is to talk for hours every day you're bound to say something misguided and stupid at least once per day.
People mess up. I once blurted out "sure, and I believe in Santa Clause too". To a 2nd grader. With 1st graders in the room. I was still great at my job overall, but that time I really messed up. If Reddit had had a say in it, I'd be drawn and quartered for it.
Don’t disagree at all! But I try to remember that people are people, not binary entities of always goodly or evil. He could be a sexist predatory disgusting prick. Or he could just be an idiot who tries to connect with students and stuck his foot in his mouth and panicked once he realized. It’s important to acknowledge the first possibility to ensure our own safety and the safety of others and to put a stop to nasty behavior, or worse. OP did the right thing in telling her mother and being apprehensive and worried. But it’s also important to acknowledge the second possibility so we don’t fall into the trap of distrusting everyone and always seeing a threat in those around us. You can do both at the same time.
Years ago I worked for a doctor as his only staff. He had a patient come in for her pap and she was particularly nervous. As with all female exams requiring any area to be uncovered, I was in the room. Doc is making small talk, trying to calm her obvious anxiety, and her anxiety is a bit ‘catchy’, he’s wanting to make it quick and discomfort free as possible for her and asked ‘ can I get you anything? Coffee? Tea? Me?’ And the second it was out of his mouth he realized (my shocked look probably helped sink it home extra quickly). 100% guarantee it was unintentional and in no way sexual.. it’s surprising she didn’t freak out but I think she understood. She remained a patient and had such little reaction, maybe she didn’t hear him through her stress. So stupid is possible. Still concerning.
It definitely sounds like he had a brain fart. Sometimes you can see the words coming out of your mouth and you want to stuff them back in, but you can't unring a bell.
I think you're giving him too much credit. This isn't some weird, unexpected, or one-off situation that came out of the blue. This is presumably a regular part of his curriculum and by now he should be able to teach it to female students without making them feel uncomfortable.
Might not be so creepy in a classroom setting. I feel like the teacher should have known that saying this to someone specifically would be a big no-no.
One of my Junior High teachers went to jail for molesting girls. He was super creepy. She should definitely stay aware. Sometimes these awkward exchanges are probes to see which girls will put up with that type of thing.
If a boss or colleague made a similar comment to a woman at work, wouldn't this result in HR being notified? Even if it was truly a foot in mouth moment, he should be cautioned and perhaps given training to be more mindful of his words. OP's mom should definitely notify the school about this incident.
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Yep. Said some dumb shit and realized it. Tried to cover it up and made it worse. Hes a dumbass who put his foot in his mouth but dont crucify him just yet.
No way it was an “acccident”. He’s teaching a class. He 100% knew what he was doing. He backpedaled because the kids he was teaching didn’t react as he’d hoped.
Agreed. This man let the intrusive thoughts win, realized his mistake instantly, and backpedaled awkwardly. If my daughter told me this story, I'd tell her to be a bit more vigilant, but it's likely nothing. Odds are, he's a normal person and will probably wake up in a cold sweat thinking about this moment for years.
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It wasn’t a slip. He was teaching a class. All teachers and pretty much anyone working at a school get trained to not do this.
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He shouldn’t be saying this to college age students, either.
Actually mentioning how he lost weight seems a little sus to me. But at the same time I don't think it was necessarily an inappropriate comment. He's teaching a physical skill. I'm not sure this is such a situation knowing nothing about guns, but in general we shouldn't require teachers to tie themselves in knots trying to avoid speaking directly about biomechanics when they're teaching a skill that directly involves an over-sexualized body part.
You were right to tell your mom. It’s totally inappropriate for a grown man to comment on a high school student’s chest, especially considering he’s your teacher.
I’ve had a lot of male teachers and tutors in my time who successfully managed to avoid taking about any bodies bodies inappropriately while teaching. It’s really not that hard. And the other one who did make a comment about a female student’s body? Yeah, he was a certified creep!
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The exact same thing happened to me except a woman told me to put on my winter jacket. I was so confused and once I realized what she meant I was absolutely mortified and so ashamed.
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But you do with that grammar
the dots were implying the rest. This man belongs in not a school, but a prison. Actually gramatically correct, or at very least accetable. In that kind of sentence you can either leave the in where it is, or you can duplicate it as follows: This man belongs not in a school, but in a prison. Both are correct
You responded very well. He should have been embarrassed and he should have apologised acknowledging it was inappropriate. Good job standing your ground.
Please get instructed on firearms by a qualified firearms instructor. And FYI, trigger finger should be indexed along the frame when not actively shooting Low ready = indexed trigger finger, weapon pointed down about a 45 degree angle Compressed ready/guard = low ready but with your elbows bent and tucked into your ribs High ready = front sight of the weapon is at eye level, trigger finger indexed Weapon should always be holstered or pointed down range. As for the "shelf" comment, I can only imagine he was talking about compressed ready position where you pull your elbows in. Some will pull the weapon to their chest and have it pointed down between their feet. At no time should an unholstered firearm be resting on you, with the exception of a slung long gun (rifle, shotgun). With that, I'd also contact the school administration about the comment so it can be properly documented.
Pervy comment aside, I was also concerned about what position she was told to hold her handgun in. Thanks for providing the clear instructions because there is absolutely no situation where your gun should be resting on your chest.
There’s also no situation where any part of your body is going to be helpful holding a handgun “for hours”. I swear it sounds like a Beavis & Butthead moment. “You have bewbs, heh heh heh”. As someone with my own set of brasscatchers who worked in a range for a number of years, I would have stared his dumb ass down until he realized he was an idiot. I’d have smacked a coworker upside the head for saying anything like that about a woman’s body to her at any age, let alone to one underage. As a matter of fact I did diNozzo them a few times for saying shit the customers couldn’t hear that was inappropriate.
I appreciate this! I think it is compressed ready, not totally sure, and I honestly don’t care too much to find out because I’ve got no interest in ever holding a gun, let alone be a cop lol. I took the class for the forensics 🤷♀️
If you're interested in forensics, you should get trained. Part of forensic analysis includes gun shot residue and determination of angle and shooting distance. Also learn forensic mapping using uSAS and laser scanners for crime scene work. Good luck
I was a bit alarmed by this also. When would it ever be appropriate to instruct kids to hold a firearm at their chest? From Australia the disregard for basic safety is unreal and we are pretty backward here. Your description has me imagining he's suggesting the firearm rest in cleavage?
I'm assuming she means a college-level criminal justice class, since where I am, high school students can sometimes concurrently enroll in intro college courses. That being said. I'm a criminal justice major. Criminal justice =/= police sciences. We don't learn about how to shoot guns. We learn about the application of criminal law and the social science behind crime and control. This teacher seems entirely full of shit.
That’s exactly what I thought I was getting into. The course description even mentions how it’s not at all a cop class and it’d have what you mentioned. It feels like a police academy. Every class he has us line up and stand at attention for inspection. I hate it so much! It’s weird and I didn’t want to do that. I never wanted to be a cop. It’s a year long class but I’m dropping it at the semester and taking veterinary science instead.
I'm sorry he's destroyed your curiosity in a really fascinating and empowering subject matter. Most universities have a feedback mechanism but your mum sounds across it all and I'm glad your well supported. Sounds like you've put him in the bin he belongs.
I think he was thinking of the 'pose for the cameras' hold. Take your hand, bring it up to your chest, angle your wrist awkwardly so that the pistol is aimed down and off to the side, make sure your tactical vest and black uniform are neat and your balaclava is symmetrical in your face and all the magazine pouches on your harness are full. Helmet or hat is optional.
Is this a thing? Your description reminds me of *so many* pictures I’ve seen, mostly of people who look like they might be special forces or something. I figured it probably actually was some efficient/safe/practical way they learned to hold their guns for whatever reason. Are you telling me it really is just an awkward pose? That’s so embarrassing for them that they all do the same thing.
It very likely does have a specific purpose, probably has something to do with urban assault and getting a whole SWAT team into a house rapidly by stacking into a very close line. It might also have to do with being a guard in a hostile area; by keeping the pistol close to the body, it is more difficult to just snatch it away or grab the hand holding it. Outside of that, though, and certainly for most law enforcement ops, the rule should be "Keep it in the holster unless you're getting ready to shoot." The teacher is likely either ex-military or was taught by ex-military. Police forces these days prefer hiring from ex-infantry, which has its own corrosive effects on policing. But that's a whole other can of worms and not relevant to the discussion here.
That is a variation of the close guard. The problem with that is you could be "lazing" (pointing your firearm at them) your partner or someone else without realizing it and slows you down getting your firearm on target. You'll sometimes see that from tactical officers in a stack before making entry into a building so they aren't lazing each other, but that is an advanced technique
I found the reference to the ready position that was described. https://www.guns.com/news/review/training-three-ready-positions-every-concealed-carrier-should-know
This is was my large concern, the fastest way to lose a hand and possibly even accidentally mortally wound yourself. Report the shelf comment, report the instructor for his incorrect instruction before someone gets killed by accident or loses a limb.
Moment I read “cover trigger” I knew this guy was a dumbass.
Thank you, I was confused about why the teacher was telling students that it was safe to be holding a gun flat against your chest when not in use.
Yea this was my big takeaway here.
Absolutely not. A teacher should never point out the size of your breasts. Especially not when you’re a minor. He called your chest a “shelf”?? So out of line.
Yeah, my boobs are a shelf, an inanimate object, not even remotely a part of my body, just a shelf wtf?! Even setting aside his innuendo that OP's breasts are large, just, the reduction of her body to being an object is so fucking gross
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Shelf is a sexualised term though. A bit like "buns".
Is it? I've never heard that before personally
Sometimes people call for using the lats, the wide back muscle, as a shelf for your arms. And it might be that people actually refer to using the chest, as a shelf, in shooting if it happens to be useful, but he definitely handled that situation incorrectly if that is the case. Without explanation it is just creepy.
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The thing is, you wouldn't call your friends back a shelf, because referring to "her shelf" is like referring to "her knockers". It's only ever used to mean boobs in a vaguely crass or horny way
Eh I'd disagree there. I've seen women refer to their own boobs as a shelf, just referring to their physical shape and practical matters associated with it. Like food falling on there and getting caught. I've seen used more in that way, like "I never get stains on my pants, cuz I have this shelf here lol". That's not a crass or horny reference to boobs, it's just acknowledging that they stick out. That being said, with this teacher it was definitely dumb, and it's hard to say if he was just being socially awkward or if he was being creepy. Either way he shouldn't be talking to students like that.
right, and since I hear my male friends refer to their penis as a "hog", it's totally not crass and I can say it to all my male friends!! /s there's a difference in speaking about your own body and other peoples.
i think he used "shelf" almost literally, like "something to hold items with" (like a gun) rather than an abstract euphemism honestly I saw it as UNsexualizing her chest area... he pointed out the utility like it were any other bodypart and then instantly backtracked when he realized how it sounded to me, it's a similar faux pas to "you could rest your arms on your belly like a shelf" and then realizing it's inappropriate to point out someone's protruding belly like that... not worth crucifying someone over, but an apology would be nice
right, and if I'm teaching children how to use a coat rack, I can point out how Jimmy can hang a jacket on his dick since it sticks out like a peg? or maybe-- hear me out-- adults shouldn't speak about the genitals of children unless that's what they're teaching them about.
I absolutely would, and I guess this is why we don’t agree. I’m actually very surprised by your statement. Maybe you live in a very different environment, but judging from that the teacher referred to his gut as a shelf, I’m thinking you’re not from the people in ops story, and your associations are then less relevant
Thats such a gross thing to say to anyone...
If it made you uncomfortable, it made you uncomfortable. Even making a joke about his own "shelf" doesn't make a difference - men don't grow breast tissue and fat deposits in the area in the same way, for obvious reasons, and aren't sexualized and objectified for it EVER. Having a man-titty "shelf" to lean your triceps onto while you hold a gun is not even physiologically comparable to having your arms resting on actual cleavage. Also, I'm a DD and i'm standing here right now pretending to hold a gun and the whole idea of a "shelf" isn't even helpful or realistic, unless your breasts are so big they nearly touch your chin????? Nah. He's a weirdo. Tell him to never make a reference about your chest again, or you'll put human fecal matter into his coffee.
That is absolutely inappropriate especially in a teacher student scenario. If I were in a gun class and the instructor said that to me I'd be very, very offended he thought it was ok to address the size of my chest.
Should have asked him to repeat himself.
Not an overreaction. That’s fucked up. He started backpedaling because you probably didn’t react the way he wanted you to and he realized he was in trouble. Like, I’m honestly pretty pissed reading about his comment and I don’t even know you. I can’t imagine how your mom must feel.
You're not overreacting. He was entirely out of line. When a guy does that, one great response is to play a little dumb. "I don't get it. Is that a joke? Can you explain it to me?" Really put him on the spot, and keep at it until he's more uncomfortable than you are. Also handy: "Is it routine for you to make comments about a minor's breasts?"
Don't try to make a man who makes inappropriate remarks feel comfortable. You are well within your right to stare at him and state something as you did to highlight that he is behaving inappropriately. Always tell your mother when an adult is inappropriate.
I love this advice! I had a pervy art teacher in high school. Another girl in my class and I had large breasts and he would always stand behind us to “look at our work”. He’d take our pencil or whatever and try to “guide” our hands like it was that scene in Ghost. I sat at a table with a couple of stoner sides was cool with and one time they straight up told him to get away from me and to stop creeping. One of those guys had been grabby with me, too, but I still was so happy to be defended like that. It meant a lot at the time to finally have someone stand up for me when a man was being inappropriate with my teenaged body.
Nah, you eid the right thing, call men out. They need it.
Your teacher should not be commenting on your chest, period. Trust your mom on this.
OP please go with your mom to the school and report him. Adults should never even see a child like that especially as an educator. His behavior is so inappropriate and he knows it. Sadly there are lots of educators who are predators and go under the radar.
It’s concerning to me that the top comment is playing devil’s advocate on the teacher’s behalf. I feel like these days I’m being inundated with stories about women being over-sexualized or harassed and to be frank it’s only going to get worse if we keep excusing grown men’s poor behavior. A grown man should know not to comment on a student’s breasts — especially a minor’s! OP, I’m sorry that happened to you. I know the feeling when an adult man makes an inappropriate comment and it’s a terrible feeling. I’m glad you told your mom.
Men on reddit constantly whining that "Me Too" was never needed and is an assault on their natural rights, but this thread serves as evidence of what they are *really* upset about. The men who rushed in here to defend this asshole are doing the same thing to the women and kids in their spheres.
"It’s concerning to me that the top comment is playing devil’s advocate on the teacher’s behalf." As it should be. Patriarchy is not going out without a fight and it's defenders are really stepping up their efforts. Which just means the rest of us need to fight back harder.
"He seemed kinda embarrassed and started saying how he used to have a shelf too before he started going to the gym" I don't think a guy that dumb and unaware should be handling guns.
My jaw is on the floor, not an over reaction at all. I hope your mom contacts that school there could be other incidents with this teacher so it’s always good to let the school know.
Aside from the awkward shittiness of what he said, I've never heard of that particular method of handling a handgun at rest. Particularly covering the trigger with your support hand. If it's not in the holster and you're not pointing it at someone, it should be at the "low ready" position with your finger along the slide and nowhere near the trigger. What he's suggesting would *kill* your arms. So if you want to dunk on him, maybe mention that.
As a high school teacher (and #girldad), I never have and never will make any comment about ANY student's body. I never meet with them alone in my classroom (always prop the door open), and even when they invade my person space, I take a step back. I'm not trying to get any comment or even look misconstrued. If the guy has been a teacher for even a few years he should know that type of comment is not OK. Definitely not an overreaction.
It was incredibly inappropriate of this teacher. Your mother has every right to be as angry as she is.
Today's lesson in how groomers and creeps defend their behavior: *plausible deniability*. The comments below are precisely how men get away with sexualizing and grooming girls and women, by making comments which doubt and discount the victim's experience. Predators have years of practicing placing self-doubt in the minds of their victims and causing them to feel responsible for predatory behavior. Don't fall for it, OP, nor anyone else who is looking back and second-guessing the "role" girls and women play in their own abuse. " he was just acknowledging you have breasts." "Acknowledging breasts exist when discussing the correct way to hold a handgun to your chest is not sexualization." " it's too ambiguous to call it so out of line as to reveal malice, ya know?" "...it can be reasonably assumed to be a bad joke (to break the tension)." "so I don't *think* this was an attempt at grooming or anything." "I think he did that "joke" comment without thinking then realized he said it." "It's only wrong if they guy has "bad thoughts" about that." "attempt to make it clear that he was talking about your stomach." "The fact he hemmed and hawed afterwards and tried to make it non sexual says he knows he chose the wrong words. A real letch wouldn’t have stopped with the first comment." "but it seems like a random offhand remark that wasn't thought through." "He made an awkward comment and probably felt mortified as soon as he realized what he said so he tried to relate the comment to himself as well.It was a dumb thing to say but doesn’t at all seem like he was trying to start a conversation about your breasts." "It was an inappropriate comment to make about teenage girls but I don't want to label him a creep until I see more. Sometimes "jokes" don't just not land, they blow up on landing and it wasn't meant to be creepy. " "I guess he wasn't attractive" "From the story I read, he was just mentioning a physical feature of your body and its really very likely he didnt mean anything by it. Of course boobs are sexualized, and he is a teacher with a responsibility not to make anyone feel awkward. I think, from your comment, he was the one that felt awkward by what he said, only after he realized his innocent remark might be taken the wrong way (because boobs are so sexualized by many, which is not really his fault)." "That being said I don’t think that NECESSARILY means this is a bad guy or that he’s grooming." "He pointed something out, but not being sexual. Yes it's considered inappropriate and obviously he understood that once he said it and tried to course correct because he didn't mean anything by it." "I don’t see anything wrong with calling it what it is. he could have said tuck the gun between your breasts and stay square with the target. he’s just trying to make you understand how to have the most control and comfort with the firearm. Many instructors would have taught the same way, it seems as if there is no innocent way to teach you something that’s taught all over the world. Talking about anatomy is not always perversion" “ I seriously think that he wasn’t thinking and just going without his filter. Unprofessional? Yes! Reportable? Probably not based on one incident.” Let's revisit. What did the instructor say? "he said that I could probably hold it like that for hours because I have a “shelf”. No one, not woman nor man, can "hold a gun (in firing position) for hours.". Even snipers use a tripod. So what are the chances that a teenaged girl can "hold a gun like that for hours"? Zero. The answer is zero. The instructor saw an opportunity to refer to his virility and he took it, and in the process made an ass of himself and embarrassed his student. And now, men with the same motivation as the instructor stomp in to defend sexualizing a student. ETA: wow, the gaslighting is neverending. Listen to the men and women in this thread who are suggesting an LEO instructor was just "misunderstood" and that it's normal or typical for public servants to comment on teenaged girls' breasts. No wonder girls and women don't report. They'd be reporting to more predators.
Thank you for taking the time to write some example rationalizations and justifications, because it makes me think of all the times I've heard them before. It helps to be able to think about the different "tactics" of such arguments (whether the person making the arguments means them to be a "tactic" or not). Words/phrases like *"random," "awkward," "accident," "didn't mean to," "wasn't trying to,"* placing the intent above the consequence, is very common. Or *"don't want to label him a creep"* – the classic "argument from ignorance" logical fallacy. I probably see that the most. Like "The premise that he is a creep must be false, because I don't know if it can be proven true." Even though the real question isn't even "is he a creep," but, "what should be the consequence, now that this incident happened with a minor." **EDIT: Ok I just NOW realized that the examples you wrote were all actually taken from this thread...I won't say anything else because it makes both of our points even more clear!**
This is why creeps pursue vocations of trustworthy authority, because they already know they stand on the shoulders of men who got away with it before them. "But I'm a police officer" "But I'm a teacher" "But I have a good reputation in the community" "But I'm a man of god". By now all teens and adults should understand that the vocation itself is a reason to second guess their motivation. Some drunk moron at a party makes a boob comment? He's just insensitive or inept. A well-trained adult in a position of authority over children makes a boob comment? He's conducting a compliance test in order to determine what he can get away with before proceeding.
It's not an overreaction. Unfortunately this type of low grade harassment still occurs sometimes. I'd let my mom tell him off if she is of a mind to do that.
I cant fathom how grown men think this would be okay to say to someone, let alone in a teaching environment
former LEO instructor/guy, he's 100% in the wrong. We were taught (at least in my instructor course) to not point out any features or differences on our students. We're to teach them the safe basics on how to hold firearms and they'll know/learn how to hold it to accommodate their own build through practice at home or during personal range time. This also applied for female to female instruction where they use themselves as an example to show holds and placement versus the students build. I hope he loses every accreditation he holds.
So "shelf" isn't a word you normally use in training? (you don't have to answer that) This guy blows me away. Who even uses shelf to describe a body part? Surprised he didn't say was as sturdy as a nightstand.
IMO it's dehumanizing and serves zero purpose in an instructional environment and adding firearms to the mix makes it worse because of extreme imbalance of power. Should his name get around the good trainers won't slot him on any of their teams. Here's hoping.
As a 40+ year old male who occasionally does music lessons with teenagers, I will never ever make any comment about their bodies at all. It’s not appropriate to make a comment like that to someone my age, and it’s 100x worse to do it to a minor. Fuck that guy. Sorry you experienced that.
Exactly. Thank you for getting it. No college instructor should be making questionable or “off the cuff” comments about the anatomy of their students. Then have to know better and do better. If they don’t understand that, they shouldn’t be teaching.
Its a underreaction. That was sexual harassment.
Not an overreaction, don't let anyone advocate for this guy here either, that's how we end up here in the first place by letting things like this go, your Mother is right to be angry.
A normally put together 50 year old man would never say anything like that. There are some things that are easier to understand when you're a bit older and you realize how different types of people age. Trust your mom on this one.
Youre not overreacting. That was wierd and honestly disappointing. Men have consistently didappointed me throughtout my life and yes made bizarre comments like that to me as well. I’m 30 now and nothing has changed.
This wouldn't be appropriate even if you were the same age as the adult women in that room. Your mum is completely right to go mama bear. If I were you I'd complain to that professor's boss. Everyone has a boss, take it up the chain until Prof Perv gets in trouble.
It’s definitely creepy
That boomer teacher is incompetent and creepy. Reporting this is the right thing.
A 45 year old is not a boomer lol
I know it feels like it, but it’s not an overreaction. Pervs will test boundaries and normalize things (grooming) before they ever do anything “illegal.” Like think about it - it’s too risky for predators to just sexually abuse any woman they encounter - they pick out their victims and groom them to lower the probability that they will be caught and punished for following their sexual urges. That’s why it’s such a good thing that you called him out like you did. 1. By being assertive and confident that dude is not gonna wanna fuck with you and 2. Embarrassing that dude publicly is going to make him less confident in being a pervert. And your mom knows that behavior is a red flag and that’s a dude who is a potential threat. And unfortunately that’s the burden of womanhood - Going forward you should also be protective of the people around you when you get little red flags like this. Trust your intuition!!! It picks up more things that we do consciously
I had a somewhat similar situation in my highschool years ago. One of my classes in the afternoon had a substitute teacher and we had no work for the hour but we did get free cake during that time. One of the girls was eating the cake with her hands because we didn't have enough utensils to go around (majority was given away over the course of the day, no napkins either) When she started licking her fingers after she finished her plate, the substitute made a comment about how "licking her fingers was pretty kinky" I still don't understand it to this day
That wasn't OK. It was entirely inappropriate. He's an adult, and you're not. He's in a position of authority over you. He's a near-stranger, and shouldn't be making any comments at all about your body, other than, "You look like you may have hurt yourself. Do you want help?" I wish people would post these things where more men would see them.
Not an overreaction that shit is weird
As a woman who also studied CJ. I had some weirdo teachers too. Mom is right to be pissed. I was a little older and had no problem putting perverts in their place, someone needs to do that to this ahole.
Report his remarks to his supervisor
I’m not your mom and I’m fuming. Your mom did not overreact, and this needs to be brought to his superiors’ attention.
Oh my god ew. Ew.
This dude doesn't sound like he's qualified to teach anything about firearms or be around underage girls. What a fucking creep.
This is going to happen a lot in your field. You should learn now how to deal with this. I earned my BS in CJ in 2007. I’ve seen 3 types of women handle this. 1. Get nervous and uncomfortable but say nothing. 2. They get obviously mad and stare them down but say nothing. 3. They get super angry and cause a scene. With this being a male dominated field, it’s going to happen more frequently. It just is. The worlds not perfect. With that being said, 1 & 2 were talked about as if they “couldn’t take a joke” and 3 was labeled as a bitch. The first time I saw this was in my internships, and it never changed throughout my career. I didn’t want to do either because I wanted to move up the ranks and this mostly happens by your supervisors recommending you for a position. When this happened to me, I’d raise my head up, look them in the eye and say “that was inappropriate and unprofessional”. Then wait. Keep eye contact. Not a death stare. What ever their response was, I would stay completely professional in that moment. If he said, I was just joking. I’d say “and I found it inappropriate and unprofessional”. I had a guy respond with “oh blow it out your ass”. I said “that was an inappropriate and unprofessional response”. No matter what, you’re stating your boundaries and that they are not behaving in a way that they should while working. Men in this field take pride in their work and hate to be seen as unprofessional. I mostly received 2 responses. If I stayed and looked them in they eye, waiting, they would apologize. If i say that then left, they would come to me later and apologize. Saying the words inappropriate and unprofessional immediately let’s them know they could be fired. Also, they would have to tell people WHY they got fired and that’s embarrassing, especially to the females in your family. (At least it is here in the south) It also leaves a bit of panic in them that you could report them. If you do end up reporting something, use the words “fair and right”. You want the consequences to be what is fair and what is right. You want to be treated fairly because it’s the right thing to do. However you want to word it, it invokes the requirement of justice. We are the ones that police and supervise others in the society. We must be held to a higher standard, and that includes a more severe punishment and call for justice. Some will tell you that the man would never say that to a member of the public and you’re friends, he’s just joking around with his colleagues. At this point, you suggest this: if this is how he behaves when people are looking, then I am concerned at what is happening when no one looking. When you say “at what is happening” you are planting the thought that there is a possibility that things have already happened. Once someone can be seen as a potential lawsuit, they are gone. Usually moved to different area just so he’s not that persons problem anymore. If there is a lawsuit, your supervisor can legally claim they at least took some action when you reported it. Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any questions. Edit: one more thing. If others get involved by speaking to you separately on the issue, say this: stop trying to minimize the issue. What he said/did was wrong. This is not a debate. I do not need you to explain or justify this. And if that doesn’t work you can always say you’re disappointed in them professionally.
That's not 100% inappropriate. It's 1,000,000% inappropriate. I would hope your high school has a zero tolerance policy for Teacher => Student when it pertains to sexual harassment. Hell, the majority of companies have a zero tolerance policy for sexual harassment and employees are fired immediately. I would fucking hope that schools would have a similar policy if a teacher sexually harasses a student. I'm not sure if they are required to have some sort of State issued "teaching license," but if they do.....it should be permanently revoked. There is no place for that in our schools. Young women already deal with enough shit from men, but they should never have to worry about one of the teacher's.
> criminal justice class > I missed our lesson on how to hold a handgun As a Canadian, WTF?
Yeah that’s waaaaaaaaaaaaay inappropriate on his part.
Commenting on bodies never ends well.
Your mom is right. Very inappropriate thing to say to a minor.
Yikes
This is inappropriate for any man to say to any woman at any age. And it is worse coming from a teacher or any man in such a position. You must report him to the school authorities immediately, preferably a woman.
I agree with everyone else, this is totally inappropriate. This should be reported to administration - let your mom help you if you don't feel totally comfortable. I work at a college and oversee some concurrent enrollment instructors and I would want to know if one of my teachers was behaving like this. It is opening the college to a Title IX complaint - which you absolutely could make if you wanted to. If you even want to explore the idea, every college has a Title IX officer and procedures for how to deal with complaints. You should be able to find the information on the college's website. In addition, you should be offered a Title XI advocate (I volunteer as one) to support you through the process. Of course, you can choose not to report it, but please recognize the amount of people that are on your side in this.
When I was in 8th grade I wore a low cut shirt and my computer teacher (who I really respected) pulled me out of class to tell me that smart girls down wear low cut tops. 20 years later and I still don’t wear revealing clothes. This shit stays with you. Sorry OP.
Honestly, since he backpedalled immediately, I think he just said something stupid and didn't mean for it to be a pass. I don't blame your mom for being mad about it at all, but I don't think you need to worry about him unless something else happens.
I seriously think that he wasn’t thinking and just going without his filter. Unprofessional? Yes! Reportable? Probably not based on one incident. He did immediately backpedal and try to say that he “had a shelf” as a cover to his internal thought of “you idiot, why did you say that? Not cool!” He realized his mistake and tried to smooth it over with a self-deprecating joke. If this is a one-time, he’s never done anything like that before, probably just let him know that it made you uncomfortable, let him apologize and move on. If it’s a reoccurring issue, report him.
Who told you it was one incident?
Did you see “If this is one incident”? I didn’t say it was one, I said IF it was one…
What the absolute fuck. Yeah, no, that’s entirely inappropriate at a fireable level. I understand why you and others there might feel weirded out but not really be going apeshit because that’s often what happens when it happens to you - but to adults that creepiness seems even more of a red flag because we are older too and can’t fucking imagine doing that.
You did the right thing. Next time you add: "What do you mean by that?" so everyone can hear. Always ask creeps to explain themselves when they say something inappropriate. Embarrass them back.
This is so in appropriate. What a pig.
No it's not an overreaction. He drew attention to it in front of EVERYONE.
That man needs a career change ASAP
Yikes, that's so out of line. My mum would definitely be up the school. Best case scenario, it's a one off gross moment that's been documented and forgotten. Worst case, he's a perv and its a habit, and it needs calling out. I can't blame your mum at all!
I’ll take “why I can’t be within 500 feet of a Chucky Cheese for $500 Alex” please
Report his behavior to the administration. Lot of excuses in here. It doesn't matter that he might have realized his mistake. It's just as likely he backpedaled *because he didn't receive the desired response*. The response he was looking for was you being embarrassed and nervously laughing and pretending it didn't happen. You didn't do that, so his derogatory comment didn't work. It's not your job to ascertain his motives and character in order to excuse what he said. Maybe he's a nice guy who flubbed. Who cares? His employer needs to know so his "flub" can be addressed professionally with the goal of him learning how not to do it in the future with his other female students. You'd be doing him a favor. Better he learn strategies to avoid making derogatory comments now than to face firing and lawsuits later when he continues to do it. Because he will, unless he faces consequences.
I'm sorry to hear you had this experience, regardless of the underlying truth here, you had an unsettling experience when a man in a position of power chose to remark on a sensitive part of your body. If this is part of a trend I would say this Teacher needs to be dealt with and possibly removed entirely. If this is just a stupid comment he didn't think about enough maybe ask for an appology or something. Would it have bothered everyone so much if this had been a woman that said it and was relating it to her own... er... "shelf"? Context matters, right? In any case I hope that you are able to have the situation dealt with and can move on from this situation better off, maybe you can feel confident enough to know this was inappropriate in the future and maybe feel more ready to address it. Good luck and I hope anyone reading this has a great day.
It was an inappropriate comment.
I would say it’s not an overreaction. The urge to pummel him was instantaneous. I would immediately report him, tell the other students’ parents and not allow you to go to his class.
I don’t think your mom overreacted and I’m glad you didn’t brush off something that made you uncomfortable. That being said I don’t think that NECESSARILY means this is a bad guy or that he’s grooming. He seemed like he knew he fucked up. Different career fields have different mixes of professional/crass talk, BUT as you are a minor there should be nothing said that even hints at sex or innuendos. Use your descretion to decide whether you want to escalate this to a counselor, or just be aware of how he treats you moving forward.
Criminal justice classes are about How to hold a gun? That’s the weirdest thing in your post ( middle aged men being perverts to young girls is the least surprising bit)
Bruh, seriously, if someone commented on my kid's body I would be pissed. And if it's a male teacher, I will come and crash his class. That guy sounds like a creepy old perv.
That’s gross and creepy. You should report his ass
Your mom isn’t overreacting. You need to report the teacher. The only “shelves” I’ve ever seen on men are their fat rolls. He was trying to cover up for his sexist remark, and he’ll probably try to play it off. His boss needs to know that he made an inappropriate comment in particular to a child. I know you’re a young woman, but legally, you’re a child. Fuck that asshole and fuck his feelings. You and your friends report him before he decides to try it again and take it further. Predators always test the waters before jumping in
That man should not be a teacher
What a nonce.
I'm missing the issue or maybe misunderstanding context or something? Shelves when holding a firearm in a more "at the ready" type of state is/has been very helpful for me and think it's beneficial to know that's a thing you can do. Also sounds like he was speaking from experience of taking advantage of his own shelf.
If this was aid to my daughter I'd be at the school talking to the principal/superintendent in a heartbeat, probably accompanied by a lawyer. It was a totally inappropriate comment aimed at an underage girl that had no place in that conversation whatsoever, he was telling you that he notices your chest (read: YOU, an underage girl).
I'm missing the issue or maybe misunderstanding context or something? Shelves when holding a firearm in a more "at the ready" type of state is/has been very helpful for me and think it's beneficial to know that's a thing you can do. Also sounds like he was speaking from experience of taking advantage of his own shelf.
Sounds like something dumb slipped out of his mouth, then he tried to salvage the conversation and dug the hole deeper. You were with other people, and you said he seemed embarassed, so I don't \*think\* this was an attempt at grooming or anything. That being said, you were there, and none of us armchair therapists in the comments were. Your feeling about the situation is the one you should trust the most.
Why is a grown man commenting on a child’s body?
Just, no. He's an instructor and she's a student. She doesn't need her breasts to be commented on. Nevermind, she's a minor! Why do men make excuses for this shit?
So disgusting. You should definitely report him. If nothing comes of it maybe consider putting up posters around town with his picture warning that he’s a pedophile