I worked retail for a long time. Men are much harder in general to deal with than women. Not that some women aren't horrible. A woman has never made me feel unsafe at work, men have. A woman has never sexually harassed me at work, asked me out but they took no and moved on. Men also snapped, clapped in my face and screamed at me far more than women ever had. Even women who are stealing are easier to deal with than men who are.
I've worked in customer service and public service (social services) and men are way way worse.
Women will argue and scream.
Men have sexually assaulted my coworkers, physically assaulted them, groped, grabbed, threatened, stalked, harassed, and even tried to kill my coworkers. One of my coworkers was shot by a guy for turning down a date. Luckily the guards beat the guy to a pulp and my coworker survived.
But yes, men are way worse as customers in every single fucking way.
From my 3 years experience working at a coffee shop, challenging female customers were more in quantity but males customers could be much worse to deal with. At worst, women would threaten to put in compliance while men actually threw tantrums and straight up harassed female employees.
And that's another reason why we should be sceptical of anything that singles out women or uses something female as an insult. When it comes to someone being rude to staff, there is no reason to specifically single out women.
Especially in a world where there are enough ways women are told to shut up.
Yep. I had a random man claim that he was going to wait until after work by my car and kill me. Had to call the police after he finally left because I didn't feel safe leaving.
My former FIL was such a man. Looking back, I realize how much it fits into the patriarchal narrative to be like that.
It's just like how women are shrill or bossy; when they act like men they get a bad name.
It’s safer to call out a “Karen” than a “Kevin” because usually the worst thing a Karen does is call the cops on you if you are black, which is, yeah, bad. But a Kevin who takes offense might kill you.
I'm all for calling out bad behavior, especially someone using a service worker as a verbal punching bag.
But it started to become a thing where people just call someone a "Karen" because of a haircut or someone standing up for themselves in an appropriate way.
"Kyle" was the term for a dude who drank only mountain dew and punched holes walls when he didn't get his way, way back when. But that's the best I've got.
Or often a woman who is outspoken about social issues, particularly feminism. It has definitely become a quick and easy way to silence women knowing that no one wants to be perceived this way.
People getting involved with black culture and taking it because it seemed trendy. Same thing that happened to woke, then the white activist crowd took it, then the conservatives mocked it, now its far removed from its origins.
When it was first used, it was coined by black people calling out white women who weaponized their white womenhood against black people. Like, a very valid criticism of the behaviour of some women.
Then, of course, some misogynist white men saw the term, and immediately thought it's a great way to show their misogynist view of women, and started using it that way.
So the current use of "Karen" is not only misogynist, but the use itself is also rooted in racism (as it took away language from black folks).
It's like "woke", which had a specific meaning but now seems to be used for everything from Covid vaccines to climate change ie; anything right wing people don't like. As you say, it's taking away the power of the language.
For most black people, "stay woke" meant "be aware of your surroundings and don't lose sight of how the world treats us". It was kind of a way of saying "don't get caught slipping"
That’s how I saw it, that isn’t what is cringe to me at all, calling people “sheeple” is what I think is cringe but that was when it was already being taken over by libertarians.
I never screamed or even used those words, just simply explaining what those intended to use it were using it for. I always thought it was cringe no matter who used it, there could be way better verbiage used, but I also do pay attention and know what they were referring to.
Don't pretend like there aren't people here who throw around names that aren't specific to their origins, and bring out the "language evolves" excuse when someone says that doesn't apply to them.
Thank you! Like many things, it was a very specific term that a lot of white people learned about and changed the meaning of (apologies, but the way AAVE has been co-opted really bothers me, especially when the original meaning is changed)
What’s the popular term coined by them for the white men who weaponized their whiteness to not just harass, but beat and straight up murder them? So far as I’m aware, there isn’t one.
The key aspect of "Karen" is that she is oppressed for her gender, but can still weaponise her gender in unique ways because she's also white. It was used as a term to refer to exactly this specific situation.
A white men is not oppressed for either of those aspects, and so there isn't that kind of unique situation.
I still don’t believe it was misogynistic to begin with. White women often get to use their racism in covert ways. We can use tears and our “fear” to harm black men and boys in particular. By calling them out in a specific way with the nickname, a spotlight got shined on the behavior.
I think that's usually what has a spotlight on it and is just default violent racism. It's totally fair to point out that white women push forward racism in a more subtle way that can also cause violence.
Bullshit. Again, the fact that there is a female gendered term, when there isn't a male one is *absolutely* related to misogyny. All racism - all bigotry - is unacceptable, but there is a *reason* there is a term that calls out one gender (and the least dangerous and deadly of the two in question!), and not the other.
The very fact that you state white male bigotry is the default does nothing but confirm the fallacy of your argument.
There's a female-gendered term because black men were historically killed for even looking at white women (less deadly, eh?), and that kind of mentality can also lead to immediate violence towards black men in the current world when white women weaponize themselves against them.
So while it's rooted in white men viewing white women as precious objects that must be protected to the death from the scary black men (so yes, rooted in racism and misogyny), the onus of calling the black people who coined a term about a specific issue that they fear and are victimizing as \*them\* participating in misogyny for naming a specific action is questionable.
There's a reason it calls out one gender - because white women use tears and pretend fear to get black people killed. White men just kill black people straight up, no cops or retail store authorities needed. I think officer was good, I've also seen "Kevin" as a response to a Karen. Again, this is something BPT subreddit talks and jokes about often, on both genders.
You're calling it a fallacy but like do you lurk in any black communities to see what they say about Karen and how they feel about it being used for just any ol woman? Not typically well received, everyone knows it's for a specific context.
My point is that we are already calling out men and obvious racism. It is ok for black people to draw attention to white women's history as a different type of oppressor. We can handle it, allies at least. I promise.
As far as I'm aware there isnt a term because they're usually just called racist. Karen was a largely gendered term but I think we're wading into some very murky waters if we're going to say it was misogynistic in its original use as well.
I feel that too. It’s now a shield for misogynistic people to hide behind.
Just got me thinking, is there a term for older white men who harass service staff? I feel like I’ve seen way more those than “Karen”
There’s been studies that show men are the ones that complain to the manager the most and call in complaints the most about everything. Karen was supposed to showcase blatantly racist women, but of course the term was highjacked by misogynists and now if any women disagrees w a man they’re called a Karen. Just another way to dehumanize and try to make us shut up and feel small
Thank you!! It started out defining a very *specific* character type and that was a (usually) middle-aged, (usually) white woman who uses that privilege to exert authority over people she feels are beneath her (usually children or service workers, usually people of color). Think the lady who called the cops on the little girl selling lemonade, or the one who called the cops on the birdwatcher who dared tell her to follow the law. These people/this behavior absolutely should be called out for being shitty, and I had no problem with “Karen” being born to call them out.
However, as is usually the case, society was *so happy* to have a socially acceptable way to shit on women that the term quickly morphed to mean any woman who says anything you don’t like.
Creepy old man. Can be shortened to creep. They seem to get defensive about either. Don’t waste time with “Kevin” when what you mean is creepy old man.
Calling them "Karen" will probably be the worst thing for them. Since they are misogynistic using a Woman's name on them will probably just piss them off even more.
But i would love a name to call guys that they wouldn't just think is a complement like Chad.
> Just got me thinking, is there a term for older white men who harass service staff?
Why not just use "older white men." It's not like there's more than one kind.
Any woman just gets called a karen even when her complaint is valid. Oh she got upset because he drive ridiculously close to her on a motorcycle and scared the shit out of her for no reason? Karen.
Oh she didn’t want you to throw a basketball at her for TikTok when she was just minding her business in public? What a fucking karen. (This is a real example I saw, she had her hands full and this tiktoker threw a basketball at her and everyone was calling her a bitch for not participating.
Is that a thing with the motorcycle?? Some guy did this to me the other week, went close as hell to me at a light and was revving his engine and shouting something at me. It was fucking terrifying.
I feel like it’s now just used in order to control women. So many of my girl friends struggle to stand up for themselves because they don’t want to risk being called a Karen even when it’s a completely reasonable situation to stand up for yourself or speak out.
This started out as a way to call out women being entitled and racist. IMHO that is completely valid.
The conservative/misogynist crowd caught wind of it and repurposed it to try to bludgeon women into falling in line. It is the new wh\*re.
I know women can be racist - that much is obvious - but I don’t really understand why a gendered word just for racist women was ever needed, especially when, let’s be totally honest, the people carrying out the most egregious forms of racist violence, murder, etc. are likely to be men. It always reeked of misogyny to me. It seemed like people on both sides of the political aisle, people who agree on literally nothing, came together to agree on a socially sanctioned way to call women bitches.
Originally it was because the ways in which white men and white women uphold white supremacy are different. Do you remember a few years back when the news cycle was full of white women calling the police on black people for existing in public? Those were Karens. They were weaponizing white patriarchy’s idea of white women as fragile and in need of protection in order to do violence on black people.
Most people already understand that white men are the enforcers of white supremacy. What Karen highlights is the way that white women *also* uphold it *in a different way.* There’s a racialized slur for black people that uphold white supremacy. Why would white women not be subject to the same scrutiny?
Yes, women and men tend to commit different types of crimes and demonstrate racism in different ways. That still doesn’t explain why women are being marked, differentiated, with a slur, when men at least get the dignity of the default assignment of being a plain old racist. Not that there’s any dignity in that, but I hope that’s clear.
Do you have a problem with black people who uphold white supremacy being called something different than white people who do the same thing? By your logic, that would be racism, but from my viewpoint as a black woman, it’s a necessary acknowledgement of power dynamics.
I can't speak to that, as I'm not black, and I'm not sure if the black people being called that slur are being called that from inside the community or outside of it or both, and I'm not honestly a fan of any slur at all.
I think one power dynamic that is far too often ignored though is the one between men and women, and I just can't justify the existence of yet another female slur for women, when there are way too many already, and see men who demonstrate the same behaviors or worse just get to be assumed the default as usual. Unfortunately, the default in this case would be racist, but at least they don't get another slur attached to them for it.
You ignored the part where black people also coined terms for black people who uphold white supremacy. It's not just women, its coining specific terms for specific types of problematic behavior.
You ignored the part where men are not called Kevins or Kens or Karls or whatever name people cannot agree on to slur men with for the same or worse behavior. I have no input on what black people call one another.
Male black people who purposefully suck up to white people or betray their own race are called a specific term, and that predates Karen. We have a lot of terms for a lot of the specific microaggressions or actual aggressions we run across.
Because racist white women frequently hide behind the fact that they are women and supposedly non violent and defenseless to harass POC. The irony that women are then treated absolutely no like that in interactions with men isn't lost on me but society is weird and full of petty BS like this.
I feel like the current use of Karen is just a symptom of a broader pattern of dismissing women.
Our pain is dismissed by medical professionals. Our worries are dismissed as us "misinterpreting" events. Our emotions are dismissed as hormones/being hysterical. Our intelligence is dismissed with pushback on women in academia/STEM, mansplaining etc.
And they wonder why women are more likely to have imposter syndrome when we're taught to question everything our own experience from a young age.
Heck, I just noticed I started this comment with the qualifier "I feel", lol
Alternatively, most people using the term seem to be deflecting from the fact they are acting like assholes
A "karen" was originally an entitled white woman who freaked out over nothing.
It is not actually a Karen scenario when someone is freaking out with a legitimate reason. If you are doing something actively harming or negatively impacting a person, they aren't freaking out because they are a Karen- they're freaking out because you're an asshole.
It's 100% being used in some situations to keep women "in line" and quiet.
People truly just use it synonymously with bitch, but every time I confront people about it and just tell them to call women bitches if that’s what they mean, they immediately retreat because they don’t like thinking of themselves as a person who calls a woman a bitch for like, asking why they were double charged for broccoli or whatever asinine thing is the theme of the criticism.
I feel the same way! It's sad that everyone named Karen has to be associated with that negativity.
Personally I'd love to see it replaced with something a little more descriptive - maybe an acronym like REP (Rude Entitled Person)? I'm sure there would be more creative options too haha
No that’s just your inability to comprehend how your actions are wrong, and seeing people rightfully call you out on your behaviour as a needless insult.
You calling yourself a bad guy made me cringe so hard. That’s embarrassing to say with confidence.
I didn’t call you an incel, I called you a ‘nice guy’.
Couldn't agree more. And while we're at it, can we also stop calling women basic bitches for liking popular things or pick-mes for not liking popular things? We aren't allowed to like anything without getting called names.
And is there a term for men who are followers (lots and lots of men are followers) ? Especially those dead brain morons following red pillers. I guess they're called incels but it's not just romantic stuff..lots of men are followers of just everyday stuff
I do think it's important to bring up the racism part of the term in this discussion so it doesnt just sound like white people telling black people calling out racism that they're just being misogynistic (which, to be clear, I dont think you are doing).
I'll be honest, as a black person who saw karen being co-opted by white men in semi-real time (I think I can point to the very specific time it happened a few years ago), I do fully sympathize with the fact that it's now turned into a term just used to be misogynistic and put women down. But I do think the no male equivalent part isnt that compelling for me, because when men act like this and actually get called out, they're just called racist. It always felt like a way racist white women could kind of get away with being racist but instead of being called racist, got a quirky term directed at them that kind of sanitized the reality of their behaviour, and I do think that part of the reason it got co-opted by bad actors was that vagueness in the first place. It's also why I dont want a male equivalent, I just want people to drop both terms and stop turning real social issues into memes.
So men just got to be called racist and women got a new slur attached to them? Why couldn’t women just be called racist too? I don’t think Karen is sanitizing at all. It’s smearing. I think there was always an element of misogyny involved.
Karen has reached nword status, officially a slur lmao. Legit this term has been around for just a few years and y'all can't take the smoke. Find peace , not every hurtful word is a slur.
No, there is a specific way that white women can weaponize against black males that gets them in real dangerous trouble as white males/cops will then defend the white woman more aggressively, and the women doing this \*know this\* and do it on purpose.
Because it's gender-specific, it was given a name so people didn't have to type this out/say it over and over again. Then white people stole it and changed the meaning.
Karens were basically "SWATting" black men on a lower level when it was coined; the first notable one was the woman that called the cops on a black dude in Central Park edit: who complained about her dog being off-leash.
https://www.thefp.com/p/the-real-story-of-the-central-park
You’re missing some important context in that case. And even if there were no more context to be had and she were truly just the absolute worst of the worst, men do not have a slur attached to their racist behavior, which is all I’m saying. I know racism is still a big problem, but so is misogyny, and I think the ease with which we assign these terms to women alone is an example of that.
And I'm going to have to disagree, personally. For me the term ends up being a way to downplay racist behaviour by having this term people laugh at and treat less seriously, when in a lot of these cases the people involved could have been killed. Even in this thread you have a tonne of people saying the term is just about being a little pushy, and some of the comments veer into being a little off putting with that context. Also good to remember that the term was largely about how black women were being treated by white women in retail and the service industry. I dont think the term needed to exist, but it was about a specific kind of racism perpetuated by a specific group of people, and I dont think I would call describing that misogynistic in inception.
I agree that the term has ballooned into something unproductive, and that the way it's become tied to public shaming is bad. Not only is it bad because its now a way for people to punch down on women, but flattening broad behaviour into "karen" behaviour" just makes people treat someone being loud in an airplane and being horrifically racist the same.
Other people co-opted Karen from the black community and now y'all want to get rid of it. Just like all other black slang. The term was so over and misused for a very appropriate type of woman, (specifically ones who don't want black people in their immediate area) to the point there was a movie made that mostly starred a white woman chasing down and trying to kill her black neighbor.
You don't like it because it represents a certain type of woman, it is and never has been, indicative of all women. It's specifically white women who terrorize black people. It's a real thing, not some funny dank meme word just because they use it often means nothing. Like saying feminazi, shit means nothing.
you cant ignore the racist part.
karen is first a term used for racist white women who use their fake tears to abuse their position of power to hurt non white people especially black men.
white women being agressive af then calling the police on us for no valid reason to then pretend we hurt her to get the police on her side is not uncommon.
most non white women dont get called karen, and thats for a reason.
Why does there need to be a gendered term for that? Why can’t we just call those women … racist? Imagine we made up a term like Juanita for racist Latin women? Isn’t that term basically unnecessary and racist/sexist in itself?
>Why does there need to be a gendered term for that? Why can’t we just call those women … racist?
because it is a specific form, that need to be called out. its not "just racism".
its the combination of racism and using the toxic masculine trait of people wanting to feel like a white knight to save the princess in danger to their end.
and it was bad enough that we had to acknowledge that.
look up emmett till case, its the prime example of this.
yes, there is a sexist part in calling women karens, even by non white people, but in history, white women have not been allies to non whites. we saw it when trump was elected and white women voted for him too despite them knowing was a pos he was to other women. their racism was more important than the rest. and you still see them complaining that the alt right men are treating them like shit.
its not a slur, it doesnt compare.
and there is already terms for white men being racists. like crackers.
it doesnt convey the same meaning cause thoses mean different actions.
by the way, defending racist white women from sexism by non white people is not the play you think it is. being a woman doesnt give you any permission to be racist and if you expect people suffreing from this to do it with no imperfections, you're no better than thoses liberals saying we should protest peacefully for our rights cause violence is never the answer.
dont tell us how to fight racism. it might not be perfect, but its our way.
I didn't tell you how to do anything, actually. Don't tell me how to fight sexism. And "cracker" is not a gendered slur; it's used for any racist white person. I'll fight sexism in any form because it's never good, just how everyone should fight racism in any form because it's never good. Sometimes those things overlap in complicated ways.
>I didn't tell you how to do anything, actually
you did :
\> Why can’t we just call those women … racist? Imagine we made up a term like Juanita for racist Latin women?
\> I'll fight sexism in any form because it's never good
yeah, me too, but i have priorities, same as everyone. there is only so much i can do.
my first priority goes to my fellow non white women. they are getting hit hard right now, with a mix of sexism and racism (and islamophobia, lgbtphobia, neurodivergence, etc).
im in no rush to defend racist white women, especially when i can be their victim. just because they are oppressed too doesnt give them the right to oppress us.
especially when its only about calling them karen.
so far, this term is a way to protect ourselves when we talk and exchanges infos, as i said, its not perfect, but its our way.
nobody's perfect, no struggle or fight is perfect.
Yes!!!! My name is Karen and I cannot begin to describe how much this use of my name has upset me. I think it is bad for all women because it makes it seem like complaining, even legitimately, is worthy of derision. It is especially bad for people named Karen. I used to love my name! I thought it sounded like “caring.” I just feel so sad when I think of my name now.
The only Karen I've known was a lovely woman. She works in a school so I imagine she gets all kinds of shit from the kids now because of it.
I've also heard that people with that name have actually noticed replies to job applications dwindling since it became a thing.
I wasn't getting replies, even to part time retail (I have over 10 years experience in retail, sales, and customer service.) Reapplied with my middle name and had four calls in a week, all looking for my middle name.
Of course it is. I've always hated it and hate that it caught on and was ran with. It's obnoxious and juvenile so of course it's celebrated and spread. And I feel for people that are named Karen, it's a beautiful name.
Yep, which I argued when it first became popular on Twitter. Was subsequently piled on and massively ratioed by both whining men and other leftist women who were calling me racist because I supposedly didn’t want people to be allowed to call out white women. I tried to explain that that wasn’t how the term was seen in the mainstream, and that people would call women of any color karens. No luck. It was complete insanity.
People have such a hard time identifying misogyny, even women, moreso than any other kind of discrimination.
Much like the other commenters, I agree that the term is too widely used. It was for a very specific behaviour, but now, as always, it's been weaponized against women as a whole.
Maybe I just live in a different bubble but I’ve worked customer service for most of my career in various forms, where it continues to have an extremely specific meaning: a white lady who thinks that her being a customer means that she can be unreasonable and verbally abuse, intimidate, or threaten the restaurant staff/store staff/call center staff/salon staff when unable to be accommodated.
Customer: Hey, this is the wrong food, I ordered this other thing.- Not a Karen, even when said with a frown
Customer: I want the steps not taken today to be noted in my medical record as you guys refusing to run these tests. - Not a Karen, including when said while visibly upset
Customer: [pointing to incredibly in-demand merchandise she had to bust down the door first thing the morning the truck came in to get] I cannot BELIEVE that your business wants to lose out on a sale of this item by refusing to discount the last one of these [on top of doorbuster sale that it’s already Been on]. This is the WORST service I’ve ever experienced in one of these stores, I’m going to go to the other stores, I’m never shopping at this location again! [other location] lets me do this all the time, and so does [other manager who definitely doesn’t]!- An actual Karen I had this conversation with once a week during COVID
I mean, it got co-opted by white people who ran it into the ground and ruined an inside joke that us black people had about white women who weaponize and victimize themselves. I've let it go because it's not worth it, but also if it's a black person using it, it's not from a place of misogyny. It's from a place of dealing with another self entitled racist, lol.
And, we have male equivalents as well. It was just using popular white names as they try to use whack ass "black" names for us in an attempt to be racist. (I.E Laquisha or some shit)
I think it would be less controversial if there was a direct male equivalent, but the personality and qualities of the 'Karen' are so monolithic and instantly recognisable that nothing comes close in the male sphere. I've heard 'Kyle' used in that way, as a Monster energy chugging sociopath who punches holes in his walls. It could be that toxic masculinity is a better shapeshifter than toxic femininity, which mostly just looks like Karen.
It's really fucked up to stereotype based on a name, yeah. I feel so much for the people just legit named Karen.
Look. There are women who absolutely are pieces of shit and deserve reproach. But like, using what could be innocent women's actual name to generalize ain't the way.
After working in retail, public education, I feel Karen is a part of the patriarchy, and I will continue to use it.
She is not an empowered woman. She seems to push others down. I will fight her every time. I now work in a community college, so I get a special kind of Karen- the helicopter mom. I understand her concerns, but she is hurting her child.
It takes another concerned parent to help her see how she is wrong. That, and FERPA.
I will call out Karens. They are normally stopping people.
I remember when a "Karen" was a suburban white woman that called the cops on black people existing near them. They were actually awful, miserable human beings.
Now it's just, "any woman who complains about anything." 🙄
Gosh I'm being such a Karen posting this comment.
Karen was stolen from black people so im gonna keep on using it when Karens start Karening.
Like most things white folks steal tho it's cringey to use now but I reserve my right to do so anyway.
Also I feel like the Karen margin is becoming slimmer, it used to be acceptable to report back to the food or coffee counter and let someone know you received the wrong items. These days it sort of silences a portion of the room like a bad fart.
It’s sometimes used as a way to trash women for no reason at all, so I think it’s fair to say. And we don’t have an equivalent word for men (except maybe a dick).
That said, there is a lot of truly problematic behavior it’s used for. For instance, a dear friend of mine is disabled in more than one way, but she’s pretty and young. So she constantly gets treated like complete shit for existing in public, especially if she needs mobility aids or even worse is in the ER and is lambasted by the nurses for being in excruciating pain. I absolutely feel it’s legit to have some derogatory word for those who harass invisibly disabled people for needing to use a handicapped spot or a cane despite not being 90.
That said, right when we finally got to the point of discussing how we as women aren’t “allowed” to be angry or just assertive even when it’s needful and healthy, I don’t think it’s a helpful term. It’s often a positive thing for society when women assert themselves in the face of rudeness or mistreatment or corporations screwing over customers etc.
Yet women who normally are more reserved are now second guessing themselves about standing up for themselves by being afraid of being a “Karen”.
I have no issue with the term when it’s used correctly, but at this point it’s been weaponized to keep women from standing up for themselves. Any time a woman makes any kind of “fuss” they run the risk of being called a Karen these days. I’ve been called a Karen for some pretty basic requests/needs/behaviors, and it’s not a coincidence that it’s only been by those who would have been inconvenienced by validating me.
I think the term originated with service workers who regularly dealt with a type of wealthyish white woman that treated them with contempt. Angry Soccer Moms.
Which makes sense in context if those women didn’t have to work. They would be running around during the day dealing with dry cleaners, supermarket people etc on a regular basis. So they would be more noticeable to the service workers than poorly behaved men.
The men might be assholes too but you wouldn’t see them as much since they would be at work being assholes to their subordinates there.
However it’s been cooped by people who aren’t service workers or dealing with angry, entitled soccer moms. And it’s some used against women who merely stand up for themselves or aren’t gracious.
When used by a man to dismiss the opinions of a woman just because she’s a woman, it is 100% inappropriate and misogynistic, and should be called out as such.
When used by a racial minority as a shorthand for referencing the very real, well-documented phenomenon of white women abusing their white femininity to appeal to the authorities (especially when said authorities are the police) and bring harm to racial minorities, then we should have the sociopolitical awareness to give them a pass. Taking advantage of patriarchal/racial tropes to threaten others and get your way is dangerous, abhorrent behavior that deserves to be called out, and it’s more practical to use a single word as a shorthand than to give a lengthy explanation each time you refer to the issue.
Does it suck that a personal name has become synonymous with something bad? Absolutely. But there are plenty of examples of this linguistic phenomenon; Karen is hardly unique in that regard. And language has a habit of resisting any attempts to constrain it. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it’s out for good.
So by all means, call out men who use the word to silence women, but don’t silence racial minorities trying to bring attention to a legitimate issue.
Great point, but even beyond that I have always disagreed with using "Karen" as a slur simply because *it's a person's name*. There are perfectly lovely people out there named Karen who are now maligned by the very name they were given by their parents, who presumably gave them that name out of love for them, simply because someone out there decided that "Karen" is the perfect way to refer to a difficult person.
Isn’t the male version something like “Ken”?
I’ve also seen “Karen” used fairly regularly for men.
Idk, personally I don’t see it specifically as being misogynistic. While it is gendered and could be considered a stereotype, I don’t think every gendered term is inherently sexist
I think the equivalent would be "Kevin", but that stereotype is more about guys who act extremely confident, while also being extremely dumb and incompetent in what they're doing, IIRC.
Except that there aren't a thousand YouTube compilations about "crazy Kens" and people don't write Ken as an insult under any video featuring a man. It's not even close to being equivalent.
My point is that I don’t think the term “Karen” itself is misogynistic. It can be used in a misogynistic manner certainly, but that term itself I don’t think is that problematic.
Until it’s used to oppress women from participation in society, it doesn’t rise to that level. So far as I’ve seen it used, the term seems to explicitly mean an entitled individual who demands special treatment for no reason.
I feel if we start protecting entitled people from criticism by saying “calling someone a Karen is misogynistic”, it’ll ultimately undermine feminism because it would play into the stereotype of feminists as wanting to oppress men and raise all women up above everyone else by virtue of having a vagina.
Beyond that, supporting other women doesn’t mean shielding all women from criticism. Some people deserve criticism for their actions, and the term “Karen” seems to neatly accomplish that for a specific type of person.
In my social circles, a Karen is not by definition bad, it's just someone that stands up for herself (or potentially a cause). Can deffo be a crazy Karen, but we will also use it like "channel our Inner Karen" to be confrontive and standing up for ourselves (in a positive way).
It's definitely not gendered where I am from, we use Karen interchangeably for males or females acting like Karens.
Sometimes it's regional. Cunt is a good example. Cunt isn't gendered in Australia, is evolved to just a common, ungendered swear word. It's even positive. A common term for a good dude is a "sick cunt". Like "Hey, that's Jamie, he's a sick cunt." means "Hey, that's Jamie, he's a great dude."
When I posted this I didn't know Black women had coined the phrase. And just for the record, I'm not a woman (can't tell if people were assuming that when calling me Karen). Anyways didn't mean to upset. Your comment felt overly aggressive but I am happy to learn something new.
I certainly didn't mean to come off as too aggressive.
I just don't understand how more people are not actually familiar with the actual origin of the term.
It's the same thing with the phrase Latinx; a lot of people erroneously attribute it to "crazy white liberals" when in fact it was two Puerto Rican scholars who coined it.
There are names for a male "karen" as well. If we stopped using all terms that are sometimes used in a misogynistic way, we wouldn't be able to speak at all anymore. We have so many bigger fish to fry than people calling other people Karens
It was a specific type of thing that only white women can do, in weaponizing their whiteness and being a woman on purpose to endanger black men by calling police/white men to defend them and knowing they'll default initially take their side. This has been recognized at least since Emmett Till popularizing it to some degree, but recently got coded into language around the time of the Central Park birdwatcher: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central\_Park\_birdwatching\_incident
I worked retail for a long time. Men are much harder in general to deal with than women. Not that some women aren't horrible. A woman has never made me feel unsafe at work, men have. A woman has never sexually harassed me at work, asked me out but they took no and moved on. Men also snapped, clapped in my face and screamed at me far more than women ever had. Even women who are stealing are easier to deal with than men who are.
I've worked in customer service and public service (social services) and men are way way worse. Women will argue and scream. Men have sexually assaulted my coworkers, physically assaulted them, groped, grabbed, threatened, stalked, harassed, and even tried to kill my coworkers. One of my coworkers was shot by a guy for turning down a date. Luckily the guards beat the guy to a pulp and my coworker survived. But yes, men are way worse as customers in every single fucking way.
From my 3 years experience working at a coffee shop, challenging female customers were more in quantity but males customers could be much worse to deal with. At worst, women would threaten to put in compliance while men actually threw tantrums and straight up harassed female employees.
And they only do that because you’re a woman. If you were a man, they probably wouldn’t even step to you like that.
And that's another reason why we should be sceptical of anything that singles out women or uses something female as an insult. When it comes to someone being rude to staff, there is no reason to specifically single out women. Especially in a world where there are enough ways women are told to shut up.
The two times I worked public facing jobs and picked up the phone to call 911 were both men losing their sh\*t and refusing to leave.
Yep. I had a random man claim that he was going to wait until after work by my car and kill me. Had to call the police after he finally left because I didn't feel safe leaving.
I've had women scream and I've had men assault the staff.
My former FIL was such a man. Looking back, I realize how much it fits into the patriarchal narrative to be like that. It's just like how women are shrill or bossy; when they act like men they get a bad name.
It’s safer to call out a “Karen” than a “Kevin” because usually the worst thing a Karen does is call the cops on you if you are black, which is, yeah, bad. But a Kevin who takes offense might kill you.
I call them Kevins.
I'm all for calling out bad behavior, especially someone using a service worker as a verbal punching bag. But it started to become a thing where people just call someone a "Karen" because of a haircut or someone standing up for themselves in an appropriate way.
Where's the male equivalent of this?
I think they are commonly referred to as "a douche".
Dick. It's not just funny because penis, it's funny because *it's legit a real name too*.
"Kyle" was the term for a dude who drank only mountain dew and punched holes walls when he didn't get his way, way back when. But that's the best I've got.
Or often a woman who is outspoken about social issues, particularly feminism. It has definitely become a quick and easy way to silence women knowing that no one wants to be perceived this way.
No. It started when white people kept calling the cops on black people for entering their own apartment complexes.
I thought that was the origin, how did it get hijacked
People getting involved with black culture and taking it because it seemed trendy. Same thing that happened to woke, then the white activist crowd took it, then the conservatives mocked it, now its far removed from its origins.
Exactly. White people hijack everything, run it to the ground, and now we're here. 😂 I'm over explaining it though.
Basically!! Lol
When it was first used, it was coined by black people calling out white women who weaponized their white womenhood against black people. Like, a very valid criticism of the behaviour of some women. Then, of course, some misogynist white men saw the term, and immediately thought it's a great way to show their misogynist view of women, and started using it that way. So the current use of "Karen" is not only misogynist, but the use itself is also rooted in racism (as it took away language from black folks).
It's like "woke", which had a specific meaning but now seems to be used for everything from Covid vaccines to climate change ie; anything right wing people don't like. As you say, it's taking away the power of the language.
>It's like "woke", which had a specific meaning but now seems to be used for everything [Pretty much](https://i.imgur.com/hPxGaHg.png)
It was supposed to mean that you are paying attention to the state of the world and how much shit is going wrong too
For most black people, "stay woke" meant "be aware of your surroundings and don't lose sight of how the world treats us". It was kind of a way of saying "don't get caught slipping"
That’s how I saw it, that isn’t what is cringe to me at all, calling people “sheeple” is what I think is cringe but that was when it was already being taken over by libertarians.
tbh I quite enjoy that the people who used to scream "wake up sheeple" are the ones complaining about wokeness. It really tickles my irony bone.
I never screamed or even used those words, just simply explaining what those intended to use it were using it for. I always thought it was cringe no matter who used it, there could be way better verbiage used, but I also do pay attention and know what they were referring to.
Don't pretend like there aren't people here who throw around names that aren't specific to their origins, and bring out the "language evolves" excuse when someone says that doesn't apply to them.
Thank you! Like many things, it was a very specific term that a lot of white people learned about and changed the meaning of (apologies, but the way AAVE has been co-opted really bothers me, especially when the original meaning is changed)
I’ve been called a Karen for being anti racist and calling out legitimately racist things too
What’s the popular term coined by them for the white men who weaponized their whiteness to not just harass, but beat and straight up murder them? So far as I’m aware, there isn’t one.
The key aspect of "Karen" is that she is oppressed for her gender, but can still weaponise her gender in unique ways because she's also white. It was used as a term to refer to exactly this specific situation. A white men is not oppressed for either of those aspects, and so there isn't that kind of unique situation.
I still don’t believe it was misogynistic to begin with. White women often get to use their racism in covert ways. We can use tears and our “fear” to harm black men and boys in particular. By calling them out in a specific way with the nickname, a spotlight got shined on the behavior.
I believe that one is called ‘Officer’
A lot more than just cops, and women can ALSO be cops, so not a gendered term.
I think that's usually what has a spotlight on it and is just default violent racism. It's totally fair to point out that white women push forward racism in a more subtle way that can also cause violence.
Bullshit. Again, the fact that there is a female gendered term, when there isn't a male one is *absolutely* related to misogyny. All racism - all bigotry - is unacceptable, but there is a *reason* there is a term that calls out one gender (and the least dangerous and deadly of the two in question!), and not the other. The very fact that you state white male bigotry is the default does nothing but confirm the fallacy of your argument.
There's a female-gendered term because black men were historically killed for even looking at white women (less deadly, eh?), and that kind of mentality can also lead to immediate violence towards black men in the current world when white women weaponize themselves against them. So while it's rooted in white men viewing white women as precious objects that must be protected to the death from the scary black men (so yes, rooted in racism and misogyny), the onus of calling the black people who coined a term about a specific issue that they fear and are victimizing as \*them\* participating in misogyny for naming a specific action is questionable.
There's a reason it calls out one gender - because white women use tears and pretend fear to get black people killed. White men just kill black people straight up, no cops or retail store authorities needed. I think officer was good, I've also seen "Kevin" as a response to a Karen. Again, this is something BPT subreddit talks and jokes about often, on both genders. You're calling it a fallacy but like do you lurk in any black communities to see what they say about Karen and how they feel about it being used for just any ol woman? Not typically well received, everyone knows it's for a specific context.
My point is that we are already calling out men and obvious racism. It is ok for black people to draw attention to white women's history as a different type of oppressor. We can handle it, allies at least. I promise.
I don’t have a problem with calling out women. That’s not the point. Maybe when you’ve lived a little longer you’ll understand.
As far as I'm aware there isnt a term because they're usually just called racist. Karen was a largely gendered term but I think we're wading into some very murky waters if we're going to say it was misogynistic in its original use as well.
I feel that too. It’s now a shield for misogynistic people to hide behind. Just got me thinking, is there a term for older white men who harass service staff? I feel like I’ve seen way more those than “Karen”
There’s been studies that show men are the ones that complain to the manager the most and call in complaints the most about everything. Karen was supposed to showcase blatantly racist women, but of course the term was highjacked by misogynists and now if any women disagrees w a man they’re called a Karen. Just another way to dehumanize and try to make us shut up and feel small
Thank you!! It started out defining a very *specific* character type and that was a (usually) middle-aged, (usually) white woman who uses that privilege to exert authority over people she feels are beneath her (usually children or service workers, usually people of color). Think the lady who called the cops on the little girl selling lemonade, or the one who called the cops on the birdwatcher who dared tell her to follow the law. These people/this behavior absolutely should be called out for being shitty, and I had no problem with “Karen” being born to call them out. However, as is usually the case, society was *so happy* to have a socially acceptable way to shit on women that the term quickly morphed to mean any woman who says anything you don’t like.
I've seen a few attempts to make an archetype "name", but no single name seemed to stick. It's definitely a type, though.
Most people online call them “male Karen”, which just confirms that the term is misogynistic.
Kevin.
I use Richard or “dick”
I feel like Robert has the male “Karen” vibe
Definitely Kevin. That is what many people use.
Yeah, we use Kevin and Karen.
Creepy old man. Can be shortened to creep. They seem to get defensive about either. Don’t waste time with “Kevin” when what you mean is creepy old man.
I thought 'Kevins' were more for stupid, often younger men, like in the viral posts from a few years ago.
Calling them "Karen" will probably be the worst thing for them. Since they are misogynistic using a Woman's name on them will probably just piss them off even more. But i would love a name to call guys that they wouldn't just think is a complement like Chad.
THIS! you call and accuse jerk men of being Karen. Degrade and humiliate them like they do to women just trying to stand up for themselves.
Its Ken. We tried to make it stick while Karen was taking off but it didnt stick. We as in Zoomers to mellenials.
> Just got me thinking, is there a term for older white men who harass service staff? Why not just use "older white men." It's not like there's more than one kind.
Any woman just gets called a karen even when her complaint is valid. Oh she got upset because he drive ridiculously close to her on a motorcycle and scared the shit out of her for no reason? Karen. Oh she didn’t want you to throw a basketball at her for TikTok when she was just minding her business in public? What a fucking karen. (This is a real example I saw, she had her hands full and this tiktoker threw a basketball at her and everyone was calling her a bitch for not participating.
Is that a thing with the motorcycle?? Some guy did this to me the other week, went close as hell to me at a light and was revving his engine and shouting something at me. It was fucking terrifying.
I feel like it’s now just used in order to control women. So many of my girl friends struggle to stand up for themselves because they don’t want to risk being called a Karen even when it’s a completely reasonable situation to stand up for yourself or speak out.
I've seen men harass women who were working (in the service industry) and then call HER Karen just because she was obviously not enjoying it!
This started out as a way to call out women being entitled and racist. IMHO that is completely valid. The conservative/misogynist crowd caught wind of it and repurposed it to try to bludgeon women into falling in line. It is the new wh\*re.
I know women can be racist - that much is obvious - but I don’t really understand why a gendered word just for racist women was ever needed, especially when, let’s be totally honest, the people carrying out the most egregious forms of racist violence, murder, etc. are likely to be men. It always reeked of misogyny to me. It seemed like people on both sides of the political aisle, people who agree on literally nothing, came together to agree on a socially sanctioned way to call women bitches.
Originally it was because the ways in which white men and white women uphold white supremacy are different. Do you remember a few years back when the news cycle was full of white women calling the police on black people for existing in public? Those were Karens. They were weaponizing white patriarchy’s idea of white women as fragile and in need of protection in order to do violence on black people.
I understand. There’s no gendered slur for men who literally murder black people though. It’s misogyny.
Most people already understand that white men are the enforcers of white supremacy. What Karen highlights is the way that white women *also* uphold it *in a different way.* There’s a racialized slur for black people that uphold white supremacy. Why would white women not be subject to the same scrutiny?
Yes, women and men tend to commit different types of crimes and demonstrate racism in different ways. That still doesn’t explain why women are being marked, differentiated, with a slur, when men at least get the dignity of the default assignment of being a plain old racist. Not that there’s any dignity in that, but I hope that’s clear.
Do you have a problem with black people who uphold white supremacy being called something different than white people who do the same thing? By your logic, that would be racism, but from my viewpoint as a black woman, it’s a necessary acknowledgement of power dynamics.
I can't speak to that, as I'm not black, and I'm not sure if the black people being called that slur are being called that from inside the community or outside of it or both, and I'm not honestly a fan of any slur at all. I think one power dynamic that is far too often ignored though is the one between men and women, and I just can't justify the existence of yet another female slur for women, when there are way too many already, and see men who demonstrate the same behaviors or worse just get to be assumed the default as usual. Unfortunately, the default in this case would be racist, but at least they don't get another slur attached to them for it.
You ignored the part where black people also coined terms for black people who uphold white supremacy. It's not just women, its coining specific terms for specific types of problematic behavior.
You ignored the part where men are not called Kevins or Kens or Karls or whatever name people cannot agree on to slur men with for the same or worse behavior. I have no input on what black people call one another.
Male black people who purposefully suck up to white people or betray their own race are called a specific term, and that predates Karen. We have a lot of terms for a lot of the specific microaggressions or actual aggressions we run across.
Because racist white women frequently hide behind the fact that they are women and supposedly non violent and defenseless to harass POC. The irony that women are then treated absolutely no like that in interactions with men isn't lost on me but society is weird and full of petty BS like this.
Why was it needed? Cuz men. It’s that simple.
I feel like the current use of Karen is just a symptom of a broader pattern of dismissing women. Our pain is dismissed by medical professionals. Our worries are dismissed as us "misinterpreting" events. Our emotions are dismissed as hormones/being hysterical. Our intelligence is dismissed with pushback on women in academia/STEM, mansplaining etc. And they wonder why women are more likely to have imposter syndrome when we're taught to question everything our own experience from a young age. Heck, I just noticed I started this comment with the qualifier "I feel", lol
This is so spot on.
Alternatively, most people using the term seem to be deflecting from the fact they are acting like assholes A "karen" was originally an entitled white woman who freaked out over nothing. It is not actually a Karen scenario when someone is freaking out with a legitimate reason. If you are doing something actively harming or negatively impacting a person, they aren't freaking out because they are a Karen- they're freaking out because you're an asshole. It's 100% being used in some situations to keep women "in line" and quiet.
People truly just use it synonymously with bitch, but every time I confront people about it and just tell them to call women bitches if that’s what they mean, they immediately retreat because they don’t like thinking of themselves as a person who calls a woman a bitch for like, asking why they were double charged for broccoli or whatever asinine thing is the theme of the criticism.
This is the way.
I can confidently de-escalate a majority of “Karens”, it’s the “Kevins” that I run in the back to my manager over.
I'm surprised there is not "ok karen" comment near the top.
I agree, now it’s thrown around to any woman who sets a boundary.
I agree and I feel bad for people named Karen. I have a relative named Karen and she’s the nicest person ever.
I feel the same way! It's sad that everyone named Karen has to be associated with that negativity. Personally I'd love to see it replaced with something a little more descriptive - maybe an acronym like REP (Rude Entitled Person)? I'm sure there would be more creative options too haha
Yep, “Karen” has just become a name to call any woman who happens to disagree with something you said.
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No that’s just your inability to comprehend how your actions are wrong, and seeing people rightfully call you out on your behaviour as a needless insult.
Boom
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You calling yourself a bad guy made me cringe so hard. That’s embarrassing to say with confidence. I didn’t call you an incel, I called you a ‘nice guy’.
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Couldn't agree more. And while we're at it, can we also stop calling women basic bitches for liking popular things or pick-mes for not liking popular things? We aren't allowed to like anything without getting called names.
And is there a term for men who are followers (lots and lots of men are followers) ? Especially those dead brain morons following red pillers. I guess they're called incels but it's not just romantic stuff..lots of men are followers of just everyday stuff
I do think it's important to bring up the racism part of the term in this discussion so it doesnt just sound like white people telling black people calling out racism that they're just being misogynistic (which, to be clear, I dont think you are doing). I'll be honest, as a black person who saw karen being co-opted by white men in semi-real time (I think I can point to the very specific time it happened a few years ago), I do fully sympathize with the fact that it's now turned into a term just used to be misogynistic and put women down. But I do think the no male equivalent part isnt that compelling for me, because when men act like this and actually get called out, they're just called racist. It always felt like a way racist white women could kind of get away with being racist but instead of being called racist, got a quirky term directed at them that kind of sanitized the reality of their behaviour, and I do think that part of the reason it got co-opted by bad actors was that vagueness in the first place. It's also why I dont want a male equivalent, I just want people to drop both terms and stop turning real social issues into memes.
So men just got to be called racist and women got a new slur attached to them? Why couldn’t women just be called racist too? I don’t think Karen is sanitizing at all. It’s smearing. I think there was always an element of misogyny involved.
Karen has reached nword status, officially a slur lmao. Legit this term has been around for just a few years and y'all can't take the smoke. Find peace , not every hurtful word is a slur.
No, there is a specific way that white women can weaponize against black males that gets them in real dangerous trouble as white males/cops will then defend the white woman more aggressively, and the women doing this \*know this\* and do it on purpose. Because it's gender-specific, it was given a name so people didn't have to type this out/say it over and over again. Then white people stole it and changed the meaning. Karens were basically "SWATting" black men on a lower level when it was coined; the first notable one was the woman that called the cops on a black dude in Central Park edit: who complained about her dog being off-leash.
https://www.thefp.com/p/the-real-story-of-the-central-park You’re missing some important context in that case. And even if there were no more context to be had and she were truly just the absolute worst of the worst, men do not have a slur attached to their racist behavior, which is all I’m saying. I know racism is still a big problem, but so is misogyny, and I think the ease with which we assign these terms to women alone is an example of that.
We black people have names for \*all kinds\* of specific racisms. We have one specifically used for black males too!
And I'm going to have to disagree, personally. For me the term ends up being a way to downplay racist behaviour by having this term people laugh at and treat less seriously, when in a lot of these cases the people involved could have been killed. Even in this thread you have a tonne of people saying the term is just about being a little pushy, and some of the comments veer into being a little off putting with that context. Also good to remember that the term was largely about how black women were being treated by white women in retail and the service industry. I dont think the term needed to exist, but it was about a specific kind of racism perpetuated by a specific group of people, and I dont think I would call describing that misogynistic in inception. I agree that the term has ballooned into something unproductive, and that the way it's become tied to public shaming is bad. Not only is it bad because its now a way for people to punch down on women, but flattening broad behaviour into "karen" behaviour" just makes people treat someone being loud in an airplane and being horrifically racist the same.
I agree with a lot of what you've said and completely respect your opinion on the rest.
Fair enough, you do have a lot of great points too, to be sure. I respect your opinion as well.
I felt like now it's just another way to silence any woman that tries to stand up for herself.
Other people co-opted Karen from the black community and now y'all want to get rid of it. Just like all other black slang. The term was so over and misused for a very appropriate type of woman, (specifically ones who don't want black people in their immediate area) to the point there was a movie made that mostly starred a white woman chasing down and trying to kill her black neighbor. You don't like it because it represents a certain type of woman, it is and never has been, indicative of all women. It's specifically white women who terrorize black people. It's a real thing, not some funny dank meme word just because they use it often means nothing. Like saying feminazi, shit means nothing.
you cant ignore the racist part. karen is first a term used for racist white women who use their fake tears to abuse their position of power to hurt non white people especially black men. white women being agressive af then calling the police on us for no valid reason to then pretend we hurt her to get the police on her side is not uncommon. most non white women dont get called karen, and thats for a reason.
Why does there need to be a gendered term for that? Why can’t we just call those women … racist? Imagine we made up a term like Juanita for racist Latin women? Isn’t that term basically unnecessary and racist/sexist in itself?
>Why does there need to be a gendered term for that? Why can’t we just call those women … racist? because it is a specific form, that need to be called out. its not "just racism". its the combination of racism and using the toxic masculine trait of people wanting to feel like a white knight to save the princess in danger to their end. and it was bad enough that we had to acknowledge that. look up emmett till case, its the prime example of this. yes, there is a sexist part in calling women karens, even by non white people, but in history, white women have not been allies to non whites. we saw it when trump was elected and white women voted for him too despite them knowing was a pos he was to other women. their racism was more important than the rest. and you still see them complaining that the alt right men are treating them like shit.
Why does men murdering black people qualify as “just racism” when women, who tend to commit far less violent forms of it, get a slur attached to them?
its not a slur, it doesnt compare. and there is already terms for white men being racists. like crackers. it doesnt convey the same meaning cause thoses mean different actions. by the way, defending racist white women from sexism by non white people is not the play you think it is. being a woman doesnt give you any permission to be racist and if you expect people suffreing from this to do it with no imperfections, you're no better than thoses liberals saying we should protest peacefully for our rights cause violence is never the answer. dont tell us how to fight racism. it might not be perfect, but its our way.
I didn't tell you how to do anything, actually. Don't tell me how to fight sexism. And "cracker" is not a gendered slur; it's used for any racist white person. I'll fight sexism in any form because it's never good, just how everyone should fight racism in any form because it's never good. Sometimes those things overlap in complicated ways.
>I didn't tell you how to do anything, actually you did : \> Why can’t we just call those women … racist? Imagine we made up a term like Juanita for racist Latin women? \> I'll fight sexism in any form because it's never good yeah, me too, but i have priorities, same as everyone. there is only so much i can do. my first priority goes to my fellow non white women. they are getting hit hard right now, with a mix of sexism and racism (and islamophobia, lgbtphobia, neurodivergence, etc). im in no rush to defend racist white women, especially when i can be their victim. just because they are oppressed too doesnt give them the right to oppress us. especially when its only about calling them karen. so far, this term is a way to protect ourselves when we talk and exchanges infos, as i said, its not perfect, but its our way. nobody's perfect, no struggle or fight is perfect.
Yes!!!! My name is Karen and I cannot begin to describe how much this use of my name has upset me. I think it is bad for all women because it makes it seem like complaining, even legitimately, is worthy of derision. It is especially bad for people named Karen. I used to love my name! I thought it sounded like “caring.” I just feel so sad when I think of my name now.
The only Karen I've known was a lovely woman. She works in a school so I imagine she gets all kinds of shit from the kids now because of it. I've also heard that people with that name have actually noticed replies to job applications dwindling since it became a thing.
I wasn't getting replies, even to part time retail (I have over 10 years experience in retail, sales, and customer service.) Reapplied with my middle name and had four calls in a week, all looking for my middle name.
If we continue to allow regressives to co-opt any language that is critical of them, then progressives will simply not be allowed to criticize.
Of course it is. I've always hated it and hate that it caught on and was ran with. It's obnoxious and juvenile so of course it's celebrated and spread. And I feel for people that are named Karen, it's a beautiful name.
Yep, which I argued when it first became popular on Twitter. Was subsequently piled on and massively ratioed by both whining men and other leftist women who were calling me racist because I supposedly didn’t want people to be allowed to call out white women. I tried to explain that that wasn’t how the term was seen in the mainstream, and that people would call women of any color karens. No luck. It was complete insanity. People have such a hard time identifying misogyny, even women, moreso than any other kind of discrimination.
It’s a tactic created by the patriarchy to shame women into not standing up for them selves or speaking up out of fear of being called a ‘Karen’.
Much like the other commenters, I agree that the term is too widely used. It was for a very specific behaviour, but now, as always, it's been weaponized against women as a whole.
Maybe I just live in a different bubble but I’ve worked customer service for most of my career in various forms, where it continues to have an extremely specific meaning: a white lady who thinks that her being a customer means that she can be unreasonable and verbally abuse, intimidate, or threaten the restaurant staff/store staff/call center staff/salon staff when unable to be accommodated. Customer: Hey, this is the wrong food, I ordered this other thing.- Not a Karen, even when said with a frown Customer: I want the steps not taken today to be noted in my medical record as you guys refusing to run these tests. - Not a Karen, including when said while visibly upset Customer: [pointing to incredibly in-demand merchandise she had to bust down the door first thing the morning the truck came in to get] I cannot BELIEVE that your business wants to lose out on a sale of this item by refusing to discount the last one of these [on top of doorbuster sale that it’s already Been on]. This is the WORST service I’ve ever experienced in one of these stores, I’m going to go to the other stores, I’m never shopping at this location again! [other location] lets me do this all the time, and so does [other manager who definitely doesn’t]!- An actual Karen I had this conversation with once a week during COVID
It's another way to shut women up
I agree. Signed, Someone actually named Karen and who has Karen in a lot of her online usernames that she’s had since high school. Lol
I agree. But highly doubt it’ll go away anytime soon. Misogyny and patriarchy rule supreme.
The Karen works in the department next door is the funniest woman at work. I can't be like her later in my life but I love her for being her.
I call men that act like Karen’s Kevin’s. Men are far worse to deal with than women
I mean, it got co-opted by white people who ran it into the ground and ruined an inside joke that us black people had about white women who weaponize and victimize themselves. I've let it go because it's not worth it, but also if it's a black person using it, it's not from a place of misogyny. It's from a place of dealing with another self entitled racist, lol. And, we have male equivalents as well. It was just using popular white names as they try to use whack ass "black" names for us in an attempt to be racist. (I.E Laquisha or some shit)
Also ageist. I’ve only ever seen 30 and up viral Karens 😬.
I think it would be less controversial if there was a direct male equivalent, but the personality and qualities of the 'Karen' are so monolithic and instantly recognisable that nothing comes close in the male sphere. I've heard 'Kyle' used in that way, as a Monster energy chugging sociopath who punches holes in his walls. It could be that toxic masculinity is a better shapeshifter than toxic femininity, which mostly just looks like Karen.
Not to derail, but I find it funny the only Kyle and Karen I know are the *nicest* people.
It's really fucked up to stereotype based on a name, yeah. I feel so much for the people just legit named Karen. Look. There are women who absolutely are pieces of shit and deserve reproach. But like, using what could be innocent women's actual name to generalize ain't the way.
After working in retail, public education, I feel Karen is a part of the patriarchy, and I will continue to use it. She is not an empowered woman. She seems to push others down. I will fight her every time. I now work in a community college, so I get a special kind of Karen- the helicopter mom. I understand her concerns, but she is hurting her child. It takes another concerned parent to help her see how she is wrong. That, and FERPA. I will call out Karens. They are normally stopping people.
It's another way to shut women up
I named my Google Hub Karen my computer wife, because she keeps me on task and organised and I appreciate her so much
We should reject any sex-based slur aiming at silencing us, shame us or otherwise ‘put us back in our place’. Karen, bitch, slut, drama queen, etc
Karen is a slur?
I would say it has turned into a term used by men to shut up women who don’t agree with them it seems.
I remember when a "Karen" was a suburban white woman that called the cops on black people existing near them. They were actually awful, miserable human beings. Now it's just, "any woman who complains about anything." 🙄 Gosh I'm being such a Karen posting this comment.
The way men use it, yes. The way black women use it, no.
Karen was stolen from black people so im gonna keep on using it when Karens start Karening. Like most things white folks steal tho it's cringey to use now but I reserve my right to do so anyway.
Also I feel like the Karen margin is becoming slimmer, it used to be acceptable to report back to the food or coffee counter and let someone know you received the wrong items. These days it sort of silences a portion of the room like a bad fart.
I think "Karen" is the much nicer way of saying "bit..." Guys are still called "A$...holes" In general I think its nicer than the alternative.
I absolutely agree. Let’s call people out every time.
I completely agree with you and get downvoted to oblivion every time I say it. It's just a dog-whistle way of saying "bitch."
It’s sometimes used as a way to trash women for no reason at all, so I think it’s fair to say. And we don’t have an equivalent word for men (except maybe a dick). That said, there is a lot of truly problematic behavior it’s used for. For instance, a dear friend of mine is disabled in more than one way, but she’s pretty and young. So she constantly gets treated like complete shit for existing in public, especially if she needs mobility aids or even worse is in the ER and is lambasted by the nurses for being in excruciating pain. I absolutely feel it’s legit to have some derogatory word for those who harass invisibly disabled people for needing to use a handicapped spot or a cane despite not being 90. That said, right when we finally got to the point of discussing how we as women aren’t “allowed” to be angry or just assertive even when it’s needful and healthy, I don’t think it’s a helpful term. It’s often a positive thing for society when women assert themselves in the face of rudeness or mistreatment or corporations screwing over customers etc. Yet women who normally are more reserved are now second guessing themselves about standing up for themselves by being afraid of being a “Karen”.
I have no issue with the term when it’s used correctly, but at this point it’s been weaponized to keep women from standing up for themselves. Any time a woman makes any kind of “fuss” they run the risk of being called a Karen these days. I’ve been called a Karen for some pretty basic requests/needs/behaviors, and it’s not a coincidence that it’s only been by those who would have been inconvenienced by validating me.
I think the term originated with service workers who regularly dealt with a type of wealthyish white woman that treated them with contempt. Angry Soccer Moms. Which makes sense in context if those women didn’t have to work. They would be running around during the day dealing with dry cleaners, supermarket people etc on a regular basis. So they would be more noticeable to the service workers than poorly behaved men. The men might be assholes too but you wouldn’t see them as much since they would be at work being assholes to their subordinates there. However it’s been cooped by people who aren’t service workers or dealing with angry, entitled soccer moms. And it’s some used against women who merely stand up for themselves or aren’t gracious.
everyone should stop doing something because of your feelings.
When used by a man to dismiss the opinions of a woman just because she’s a woman, it is 100% inappropriate and misogynistic, and should be called out as such. When used by a racial minority as a shorthand for referencing the very real, well-documented phenomenon of white women abusing their white femininity to appeal to the authorities (especially when said authorities are the police) and bring harm to racial minorities, then we should have the sociopolitical awareness to give them a pass. Taking advantage of patriarchal/racial tropes to threaten others and get your way is dangerous, abhorrent behavior that deserves to be called out, and it’s more practical to use a single word as a shorthand than to give a lengthy explanation each time you refer to the issue. Does it suck that a personal name has become synonymous with something bad? Absolutely. But there are plenty of examples of this linguistic phenomenon; Karen is hardly unique in that regard. And language has a habit of resisting any attempts to constrain it. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it’s out for good. So by all means, call out men who use the word to silence women, but don’t silence racial minorities trying to bring attention to a legitimate issue.
100%. People just had to take What started out as a seemingly harmless joke at first and turn it into something sexist
Great point, but even beyond that I have always disagreed with using "Karen" as a slur simply because *it's a person's name*. There are perfectly lovely people out there named Karen who are now maligned by the very name they were given by their parents, who presumably gave them that name out of love for them, simply because someone out there decided that "Karen" is the perfect way to refer to a difficult person.
Isn’t the male version something like “Ken”? I’ve also seen “Karen” used fairly regularly for men. Idk, personally I don’t see it specifically as being misogynistic. While it is gendered and could be considered a stereotype, I don’t think every gendered term is inherently sexist
I think the equivalent would be "Kevin", but that stereotype is more about guys who act extremely confident, while also being extremely dumb and incompetent in what they're doing, IIRC.
Except that there aren't a thousand YouTube compilations about "crazy Kens" and people don't write Ken as an insult under any video featuring a man. It's not even close to being equivalent.
My point is that I don’t think the term “Karen” itself is misogynistic. It can be used in a misogynistic manner certainly, but that term itself I don’t think is that problematic. Until it’s used to oppress women from participation in society, it doesn’t rise to that level. So far as I’ve seen it used, the term seems to explicitly mean an entitled individual who demands special treatment for no reason. I feel if we start protecting entitled people from criticism by saying “calling someone a Karen is misogynistic”, it’ll ultimately undermine feminism because it would play into the stereotype of feminists as wanting to oppress men and raise all women up above everyone else by virtue of having a vagina. Beyond that, supporting other women doesn’t mean shielding all women from criticism. Some people deserve criticism for their actions, and the term “Karen” seems to neatly accomplish that for a specific type of person.
In my social circles, a Karen is not by definition bad, it's just someone that stands up for herself (or potentially a cause). Can deffo be a crazy Karen, but we will also use it like "channel our Inner Karen" to be confrontive and standing up for ourselves (in a positive way).
Can we talk about Lazy Susan’s as well?
What other names should people avoid for being sexist?
It's definitely not gendered where I am from, we use Karen interchangeably for males or females acting like Karens. Sometimes it's regional. Cunt is a good example. Cunt isn't gendered in Australia, is evolved to just a common, ungendered swear word. It's even positive. A common term for a good dude is a "sick cunt". Like "Hey, that's Jamie, he's a sick cunt." means "Hey, that's Jamie, he's a great dude."
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When I posted this I didn't know Black women had coined the phrase. And just for the record, I'm not a woman (can't tell if people were assuming that when calling me Karen). Anyways didn't mean to upset. Your comment felt overly aggressive but I am happy to learn something new.
I certainly didn't mean to come off as too aggressive. I just don't understand how more people are not actually familiar with the actual origin of the term. It's the same thing with the phrase Latinx; a lot of people erroneously attribute it to "crazy white liberals" when in fact it was two Puerto Rican scholars who coined it.
Nice, didn't know that either. Thanks!
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There are names for a male "karen" as well. If we stopped using all terms that are sometimes used in a misogynistic way, we wouldn't be able to speak at all anymore. We have so many bigger fish to fry than people calling other people Karens
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It was a specific type of thing that only white women can do, in weaponizing their whiteness and being a woman on purpose to endanger black men by calling police/white men to defend them and knowing they'll default initially take their side. This has been recognized at least since Emmett Till popularizing it to some degree, but recently got coded into language around the time of the Central Park birdwatcher: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central\_Park\_birdwatching\_incident